Narrator (2:04)

What did he seem like to you? Normal. The folks whose houses burned down learn about the arrest from the news.

Danielle Sink (2:12)

They said his name was Mark Sands, and they showed a little news clip of him.

Narrator (2:15)

That's Danielle Sink, the woman whose house was torched right around Christmas time, leaving behind nothing but a tiny Santa Claus figurine.

Danielle Sink (2:23)

That's the guy who did all this stuff. You look like such a little mediocre, you'd never look at him twice guy.

Narrator (2:29)

And Lee Benson, the owner of the house that burned twice. He feels vindicated. I remember just thinking, oh, so it is somebody in the neighborhood. Lee believed from the jump that CSP was one of his neighbors. But for Mark's closest friends, their reaction is total disbelief.

Vicki Dewirth (2:55)

We were all shocked. Just shocked. I couldn't be Mark.

Narrator (2:59)

This is Vicki dewirth. I tracked her down to Get a sense of the reaction in Mark's inner circle. She'd known him for years before the arrest.

Vicki Dewirth (3:06)

We had Sunday activities, we had picnics, we had children's activities and things. We just did life together.

Narrator (3:14)

They're even part of the same Bible study group when Mark is arrested. At first, Vicki just cannot accept the fact that her close friend could be behind all those fires, evading the police for a whole year. So instead she goes into support mode.

Vicki Dewirth (3:29)

We put all of our efforts into trying to minister to him. I mean, just think if you had been arrested for something you didn't do, you know, you'd be an emotional wreck.

Narrator (3:41)

Their Bible study group flocks to his side to lend prayer and guidance. But in the group's first meetup, just a couple days after Mark's release from custody, he seems more interested in debating them than receiving guidance.

Vicki Dewirth (3:54)

Mark kept arguing the point. Arson's not a sin because it's not in the Bible. We kept saying it may not use the word arson, but you're still taking somebody else's property. You're stealing it is a sip. And he was arguing his point. He was very emphatic about it. He was sitting across the room from me and I remember looking him straight in the eye. That's the moment I believed that he was guilty. My gut feeling, I knew right then, you never want to think your next door neighbor is the serial killer, you know, but he lives next to somebody.

Narrator (4:36)

From Sony Music Entertainment and novel. I'm Sam Anderson. You're listening to the Arsonist next door. Episode 5 the Confession Back on the night of Mark's arrest, while he's sitting cuffed in the back of a squad car, Sergeant Trent Crump steps onto the front porch of mark's home. It's one in the morning. Mark's wife Peggy and their 11 year old daughter are asleep inside.

Sergeant Trent Crump (5:27)

I knocked on the door and Mark's wife Peggy finally came to the door. And I asked her if she knew where her husband was at. And she said, yeah, he's in his office. I knew damn well he was in the back of one of our police cars.

Narrator (5:40)

Turns out Peggy doesn't even know Mark isn't home. It will take investigators a few hours to get a search warrant. By the time the sun is rising over the preserve, Mark is still in custody. Lieutenant Rob Handy and FBI case lead Terry Kearns lead a group of officers to Mark's house to conduct a search.

Danielle Sink (6:00)

I remember feeling bad for the wife and the daughter because, you know, I don't think they had Any idea?

Lieutenant Rob Handy (6:06)

We just methodically searched every square inch of the house.

Narrator (6:09)

These cops are thorough.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (6:11)

Every drawer, every nook, every cranny, every couch cushion. Everywhere.

Special Agent Ken Williams (6:16)

Yeah, you tenders House part.

Narrator (6:17)

After Special Agent Ken Williams finishes interviewing Mark at the police station, he heads over to the house too.

Special Agent Ken Williams (6:24)

We're looking for evidence of the arson, any pictures he might have taken, any type of undeveloped film, if he took any pictures of the scenes.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (6:31)

We were looking for accelerant or a diary or, you know, diagrams or maps of the preserve. We didn't find any of that. There was newspaper clippings of the fire, coverage and stuff like that.

Danielle Sink (6:42)

Most of it was documents and paper, his computer, that kind of stuff. And not physical evidence.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (6:48)

Nothing completely damning to him at all.

Narrator (6:53)

The evidence they found doesn't directly link Mark to the fires. But there is something they find in Mark Sands house that strikes the task force as potentially important. Something impossible to ignore.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (7:06)

The pornography was interesting because it was.

Narrator (7:08)

Extreme pornography, a lot of it.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (7:11)

We found boxes of printed pornography, and it was all organized in systematic files printed on the backsides of scrap paper.

Special Agent Ken Williams (7:18)

He just had them, like in envelopes. It was just bizarre.

Sergeant Trent Crump (7:22)

This computer screen is up and still has porn on it.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (7:25)

There was a book in the house. Helping your loved one overcome a pornography addiction, something like that.

Narrator (7:31)

Of course, there's nothing criminal about viewing pornography, but Rob suspects there might be something more serious tied up in Mark's porn obsession.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (7:39)

There was a theory that developed during the search that somehow there was a connection.

Narrator (7:43)

A connection between the arson spree and the pornography.

Danielle Sink (7:47)

One of the things with just generic profiles of arsonists is oftentimes they do get a sexual gratification from the act of starting the fires.

Sergeant Trent Crump (7:57)

We very well might be looking at a excitement based arsonist.

Narrator (8:01)

It's not unheard of that arson attacks might have a sexual component. And judging by the fact that Mark was in his underpants on the night of the arrest, it's not much of a stretch for investigators to suspect that this might be part of the story too. On top of that, Mark has an extensive VHS collection, including a bunch of home movies. The investigators think maybe they contain something related to the fires. Could he have filmed his targets beforehand? Or taken trophy footage of the burned homes? They confiscate every single tape and bring them back to the station. Trent Crump assigns a couple of investigators a new task.

Sergeant Trent Crump (8:38)

I told him, hey, grab some popcorn, go down the basement, pull up some TVs. I want you to go through frame by frame. And there's no fast forwarding at this.

Narrator (8:46)

Point, investigators feel sure that Mark Sands is their guy, and he's either acting alone or with others. But they still need to prove it. They already questioned Mark, but he didn't give them anything. Now he's lawyered up and denying any involvement beyond writing on the sign.

Special Agent Ken Williams (9:02)

The FBI and the Phoenix Police Department are now all over him.

Narrator (9:08)

In the weeks after Mark's arrest, Agent Ken Williams and the rest of the task force begin to surveil him and his family. And they are not being subtle about it. Unmarked cop cars are posted up outside their house each week. His trash bins are passed over by the regular trucks, and a special garbage truck arrives to pick up just Mark's trash, no one else's.

Special Agent Ken Williams (9:28)

It means 24 hours, seven days a week surveillance. He's not doing anything without us watching him. Now we're on him.

Narrator (9:37)

It's not just the task force that's come down hard on Mark. The media is there, too, camped out in news trucks, pestering them for interviews every time they leave the house. Meanwhile, saliva found on the envelope of a letter sent by the supposed arsonist to the Phoenix New Times is positively ID'd as Mark Sands. While all of this may sound like a smoking gun, it's not. Anyone can graffiti a sign, and anyone can write a letter claiming to be an arsonist. It doesn't prove you are one.

Sergeant Trent Crump (10:08)

He could say, hey, I was just marketing it for them. I didn't light him. Are there any footprints, any shoe prints, any fingerprints or any eyewitnesses that can say he was at a fire scene? The answer to all those is no.

Narrator (10:19)

The task force is after something concrete.

Sergeant Trent Crump (10:23)

And so we swoop in on Warren Jerrems.

Narrator (10:27)

Warren Jerrems, Mark's running buddy, his best friend.

Warren Jerrems (10:33)

The task force got in touch with me, and they said they wanted to meet.

Narrator (10:40)

Warren is about to embark on one of the most difficult chapters of his life.

Warren Jerrems (10:45)

I had no choice but to say yes. I mean, I couldn't say no.

Narrator (10:49)

It didn't take long for the investigators to figure out that Warren is Mark's closest friend. Now they're hoping he will give them the information they need. But Warren has his own ideas about Mark's character.

Warren Jerrems (11:01)

He was a nice man. I liked Mark a lot. He was outgoing and easy to be around and sincerely interested in spreading the word of the Lord.

Narrator (11:11)

Mark's daughter and Maura's daughter are close friends. They hang out together, sing in the church choir together.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (11:16)

He kept talking about what a great guy Mark was, like a second dad to his daughter. That kind of stuff.

Narrator (11:21)

Warren tells the investigators that he doesn't believe his friend set those fires. He answers all their questions as best he can.

Warren Jerrems (11:29)

At the end of that day, asked me if I would cooperate with them and provide any information to them about Mark.

Narrator (11:37)

And.

Warren Jerrems (11:37)

And I said, no, I would not participate in anything like that.

Narrator (11:42)

But this won't be the last time Warren hears from the task force. They keep trying to reach out to him. They speak to his wife, Mia. And even though Warren still believes that Mark is innocent, Mark is growing distrustful of Warren. At one point, he confronts Warren.

Warren Jerrems (11:58)

Are you talking to Mia? No, I'm not. Hell no, I'm not talking to Mia.

Narrator (12:03)

Warren is lying.

Warren Jerrems (12:04)

Mia and I talked about it often. You know, he probably recognized that she might have been an adversary.

Narrator (12:10)

She thought he was guilty at that time.

Warren Jerrems (12:12)

Yes, she did.

Narrator (12:14)

Mia would prompt Warren to think carefully about his memories of Mark.

Warren Jerrems (12:19)

We were trying to put all the pieces together, going, gosh, remember how Mark always talked about these arsons? Remember how the New Times article came out and he was so enthralled with reading it.

Narrator (12:30)

He thinks back to that time when he sat in a church pew next to Mark while their daughters sang prayerful choir songs. Mark was ignoring the music pouring over the Phoenix New Times and that interview with the arsonist. Slowly but surely, the doubts are building up in Warren's mind. He's lying awake at night, agonizing over whether his good Christian friend could really be the one burning down these houses, putting lives at risk, not caring who's affected. Warren is forced to ask himself, if Mark is really responsible for all this, what could possibly drive him to do something so extreme? It's the same question that drew me to this story in the first place. Is Mark really an eco terrorist? A religious extremist? A lunatic with a fire fetish? As Warren turns over these questions in his mind, the task force continues to pressure him. You can help us, they tell him. All you need to do is cooperate. But despite his growing doubts, Warren tells the task force, it's not Mark. It can't be. So they switch tactics.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (13:43)

We told him, look, help us prove it's not him. Help us prove his innocence. You need to get to the bottom of it, too. Here, Warren, help us out.

Narrator (13:51)

By help us out, Rob has something pretty specific in mind. They want Warren to wear a wire.

Sergeant Trent Crump (13:58)

He told us, no, I'm not going to wear this wire. I'm not going to do it.

Narrator (14:05)

Usually when an informant wears a wire, it's because they themselves are a criminal. And the Cops have some kind of evidence they can hold against the informant as a bargaining chip. You help us out and maybe we go easy on you when it comes to sentencing. But Warren, he's no criminal. Just an ordinary guy who happens to be Mark's friend. So for the cops, there is no bargaining chip. All they can do is plead. Because at this point, the task force is getting kind of desperate. Mark isn't going to volunteer a confession or even talk to them again without his lawyer. But if the task force can convince Warren, a trusted friend, to wear a wire and ask their questions for them, then maybe they can finally nail down.

Sergeant Trent Crump (14:50)

The case he had said. I don't think that he's doing this. And without more info, I'm not going to do what you guys want.

Narrator (14:56)

Warren refuses to play ball. Just when they're giving up hope of convincing Warren they find something that just might change his mind, one of the officers, Sergeant Trent Crump, asked to watch all those VHS tapes they took from Mark's house, comes back with an update.

Sergeant Trent Crump (15:15)

Hey boss, you want to see this?

Narrator (15:17)

A VHS tape confiscated from Mark's personal collection on the day of the house search might just change everything.

Sam Anderson (15:35)

Hi everyone. I'm investigative journalist and park enthusiast Delia d' Ambra. And every week on my podcast, Park Predators, I take you into the heart of our world's most stunning locations to uncover what sinister crimes have unfolded in these serene settings. From unsolved murders to chilling disappearances. Each Tuesday we dive deep into the details of cases that will leave you knowing sometimes the most beautiful places hide the darkest secrets. Listen to Park Predators now wherever you listen to podcasts.

Narrator (16:05)

Want more true crime? Subscribe to the binge to get all episodes of the Arsonist Next Door ad free today and get instant access to over 50 other jaw dropping true crime stories. Plus, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series on the first of every month. Search for the binge channel on Apple podcasts or head to getthebinge.com to subscribe. Today the task force found some game changing evidence on one of Mark Sands VHS tapes. But it's not evidence of arson. The tape in front of them contains something related to Mark's pornography obsession, which.

Sergeant Trent Crump (16:51)

Ultimately is a lot more important than one would think.

Delia d'Ambra (16:54)

You think?

Sergeant Trent Crump (16:54)

So the fact that he is out there getting off on this is one of the key pieces of evidence that got us to Warren Jerems.

Narrator (17:03)

The task force has decided it's time for Warren to learn more about his friend, the man behind that harmless churchgoing facade.

Sergeant Trent Crump (17:13)

We Get a room ready at the FBI headquarters. And I have Warren come down. We ended up telling him, we're going to show you something. It's going to be disturbing, and it's going to upset you, but we're going to show you who your friend is.

Narrator (17:26)

To be clear, investigators do not typically show evidence to civilians, but they need Warren's cooperation.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (17:33)

We're getting a little desperate. We're running out of things to do that we're going to solve this case.

Narrator (17:38)

So they show Warren the video they found at Mark's house.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (17:41)

Criminals often mask their trophy tapes in the middle of videos that are even commercially made. You're watching a movie, and then all of a sudden, it switches right to pornography. And it's clearly grainy, different quality. It's dubbed in, and then it dubs back to the commercial video.

Narrator (18:00)

On this tape, Mark has spliced porn into a normal movie.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (18:04)

It was done in such a way as to, like, conceal it, but that's.

Narrator (18:09)

Not really what concerns investigators.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (18:12)

In the middle of the hardcore pornography video was a home video.

Narrator (18:17)

So inside the normal movie is pornography, and inside the pornography, Mark has edited in a home video that's not pornographic in any way. In the video, Mark is holding the camera, and he's filming someone Warren is close to, who I'm not going to name. It's the kind of home video that, on its own, would probably seem innocuous, but spliced into porn, it's suddenly very wrong. It suggests something sinister about Mark, a side of him that's extremely upsetting to Warren, who just spent weeks defending his character.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (18:54)

He was emotional and upset.

Narrator (18:57)

When I ask Warren about this moment, he struggles to remember this part of the story. He doesn't deny that it happened, but it's almost as if he's blocked out the details.

Warren Jerrems (19:07)

I could have very easily said, I don't want to see any more. I've seen enough.

Narrator (19:11)

Rob and Trent admit they feel guilty about the position they've put Warren in.

Sergeant Trent Crump (19:16)

We kind of felt like villains, but.

Narrator (19:18)

From their perspective, the ends justify the means.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (19:21)

We decided we were kind of running out of room, and let's see what we can get.

Warren Jerrems (19:27)

I came to realize there were two sides to Mark Sands. One that everybody saw, and then there was another side that was much deeper.

Narrator (19:39)

I haven't seen the video myself, but the investigators described it to me in detail. It's shocking and upsetting. I can understand Warren's reaction. All this sexual stuff is hard to wrap my head around. Is it related to the arsons or just some Kind of twisted sideshow for Warren. After all the pressure he's been under, this is the final straw.

Sergeant Trent Crump (20:04)

He agreed to help us from that point forward. He worked with us as diligently as he could.

Narrator (20:09)

It's worth noting that even at this moment, Warren is still wrestling with feelings of loyalty to his friend Mark. He tells the investigators that he'll help them to find out whether Mark is truly the arsonist. But he's hoping they'll leave the porn and home videos out of the case.

Warren Jerrems (20:26)

If I do participate with the task force, I don't want any of this stuff to come out about Mark. Let's not smear him anymore that he's already been smeared.

Narrator (20:36)

Over the next couple weeks, Warren meets with Mark several times, often going for walks in the preserve. Mark doesn't know it, but from this point forward, he's secretly being recorded.

Warren Jerrems (20:52)

If we were out on the mountain peak, he might say something or we might have a discussion.

Narrator (20:57)

After each hike, Warren delivers the audio back to Rob and Trent. All throughout the spring, it goes on like this. Mark and Warren meet up out there in the desert, surrounded by cactus and the rippling orange brown rocks. Mark and Warren hike, and they talk and they circle each other like the vultures overhead circling carrion.

Sergeant Trent Crump (21:21)

The conversation kept going right to the edge, and then it would stop and it would go to the edge and it would.

Warren Jerrems (21:28)

I was always too timid to kind of really broach the subject.

Narrator (21:32)

Every time it seems like Mark might be on the verge of telling Warren the truth. Their hike comes to an end.

Warren Jerrems (21:38)

Mark and I were kind of playing a strange game of he wouldn't tell me anything about his secret, and I wouldn't tell him anything about my secret.

Narrator (21:49)

The task force want Mark to feel like he can really trust Warren. They know that Mark is a marketing professional, but he's struggling to find a stable job. So they give Warren some money to hire Mark at the small startup he owns developing software for nursing homes.

Warren Jerrems (22:07)

My two IT guys were going, what the heck are we hiring him for? And I'm going, oh, we're trying to market our stuff.

Narrator (22:13)

So Mark now has a job, or he thinks he does. But for Warren, his full time job is now hanging out with Mark Sands.

Warren Jerrems (22:22)

There wasn't a minute in the day when I wasn't thinking about Mark and what was going on. It was all consuming.

Narrator (22:35)

Six weeks go by since Mark's arrest at the fake construction site. By June 2001, Warren realizes that if he's going to get a confession out of Mark, he'll Need to shake things up.

Warren Jerrems (22:48)

That's when I came up with the idea of going to the Grand Canyon.

Narrator (22:54)

Warren knew that hiking the Grand Canyon was always on Mark's bucket list. So he tells the task force he has an idea.

Warren Jerrems (23:02)

I said, I think if we're in a very remote place, I may be able to ask him something that I may not be able to ask him. If we're just in the backyard of some of these houses on the preserve back here.

Narrator (23:15)

The plan is to hike the south rim trail, which goes all the way to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. And they want to do it by the light of the full moon, which means they'll be setting off that evening at sunset.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (23:27)

Basically, we had the one day to put it together. It was a scramble.

Narrator (23:31)

The task force rushes to prepare. This operation is going to be expensive. But the police and the FBI bigwigs are anxious to finally nail this arsonist. Rob heads into his boss's office.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (23:44)

Five minutes later, I'm leaving with a $10,000 check made out to me, and my boss is like, just bring me back receipts.

Narrator (23:50)

Wow.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (23:50)

We literally called people that morning and said, hey, go home, get a change of clothes, get gear to hike in the canyon, and be back at work in, like, three hours.

Narrator (23:58)

They get around 15 undercover officers on board.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (24:01)

We had people hiking down into the grand canyon to get down ahead of them.

Narrator (24:05)

Rob even calls in air support.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (24:07)

We used an airplane because you couldn't use a helicopter over the Grand Canyon.

Narrator (24:10)

Yeah. I mean, it kind of sounds like overkill almost. Do you think it was, like, too much?

Lieutenant Rob Handy (24:15)

Well, we felt an obligation to protect Warren.

Sergeant Trent Crump (24:18)

We had a fear that if Mark told him what happened, that, you know, Mark could take a rock to his head down there.

Narrator (24:26)

Warren is given a set of glow sticks to attach to his bag to use as a signal. Green for safe, red for danger.

Sergeant Trent Crump (24:33)

If a red glow stick came out, then we knew we were going to take Mark out at that point.

Narrator (24:38)

Undercover cops dressed as hikers will be ready to intervene by force if necessary at the first sign of trouble. Then there's the recording device. They sew one into his backpack and another into his water bottle holder. But it's a rush job.

Warren Jerrems (24:54)

Mia looked at it and said, look at this. The threads are all coming out. She took it apart, and she resewed it so you couldn't see it.

Narrator (25:00)

While the task force is focused on the technical side of things, Warren is preparing mentally for what he's about to do.

Warren Jerrems (25:07)

They said, well, Warren, these are the four questions that we're looking for one of them was, did he do the interview with Mr. Hibbard? Another one was, did he write the letters to the media? Another one was, is he acting alone or is there really a coalition to save the preserve? Are there other people? And then of course, the fourth one was, did you set the fires?

Sergeant Trent Crump (25:31)

That's a lot of stress for a guy like Warren.

Narrator (25:33)

For his entire life, Warren Jerrems has stayed on the straight and narrow path. He has a good job, two kids, goes to church every weekend. Never in his worst nightmares did he think he would find himself in this position. Working as an undercover agent for the state, wired up and ready to convince his best friend to confess to serial arson.

Warren Jerrems (25:56)

He is feeling pretty safe and pretty comfortable. And he's with a friend who is two faced.

Narrator (26:03)

Warren knows what the task force wants, but what does he want the outcome to be? On the one hand, he's holding out hope that Mark is innocent. On the other hand, he's now seen a side of Mark that he never thought was possible.

Warren Jerrems (26:18)

Yeah, I was probably under a lot of stress. I was thinking that I was doing the right thing, hoping that I was doing the right thing.

Narrator (26:31)

With all these feelings boiling up inside him. Warren pulls up to the Sands house in his Jeep Cherokee. His buddy Mark hops in the passenger seat. They drive north out of Phoenix as urban spirit. As brawl fades into desert. The highway unfolds in front of them, revealing the big open sky of the American west behind them and in front of them is an undercover motorcade. The task force.

Warren Jerrems (27:03)

We got to the south rim of the Grand Canyon just before sunset.

Narrator (27:08)

Rob watches from a distance as Mark and Warren exit the Jeep and approach the lip of the canyon, lit up by the last rays of the sinking sun. Warren's head is swirling with the questions he needs to ask Mark.

Warren Jerrems (27:22)

Did he do the interview? Did he write the letters? Is he acting alone? Did he set the fires? I knew the questions. I had them in my head. I had it rehearsed. I just wasn't emotionally prepared for the answers.

Narrator (27:40)

Foreign.

Sam Anderson (27:44)

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Delia d'Ambra (28:10)

Go to your happy price Priceline. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music, and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.

Warren Jerrems (28:52)

By the time we got to the trailhead, the sun had set and the Grand Canyon was aglow with the colors of a sunset.

Narrator (29:01)

As the sky turns from blue to orange to a deep amethyst purple, Warren takes in the view.

Warren Jerrems (29:07)

It was really quite a sight. It always is.

Narrator (29:11)

By his side is the one man who he's always felt relaxed with. Until now.

Warren Jerrems (29:17)

We're in probably one of the most remote places in the world.

Narrator (29:21)

Painfully aware of the microphones sewn into his backpack, Warren falls in next to Mark as they begin the 8 mile descent into the most famous canyon in the country.

Mark Sands (29:31)

Have you seen the moon yet? No, we have not.

Narrator (29:35)

What you're hearing is the actual audio recorded from Warren's hidden microphone. They can't see it quite yet, but a full moon is beginning to climb into the sky. Slowly but steadily, they make their way down, deeper and deeper into the canyon, passing other hikers on the trail.

Mark Sands (29:53)

Hi there.

Narrator (29:54)

Warren wonders, are they undercover cops? For a brief instant, possibly for the first time in months, Mark and Warren are distracted from the investigation. Fully immersed in the beauty of the moment. The swirling rocks embrace them, illuminated by the light of the moon, which has now risen over the lip of the canyon. But the spell is quickly broken by the shadow hanging over both of them. Mark can't help but bring up the investigation.

Mark Sands (30:26)

Either gonna charge me or they're not, or they're gonna save their way and think, I think I'm gonna make a.

Narrator (30:33)

Mistake.

Mark Sands (30:36)

Whatever kind of mistake that would be.

Narrator (30:40)

Just like on their hikes in the mountain preserve, they begin to circle each other, getting closer and closer to Warren's burning questions.

Mark Sands (30:49)

Well, I know what I've been thinking about since we last hiked. What'd you say? I think you were involved in some of the activities of either sidewriting or letter writing. Almost was acting as the csp. I think you were involved in some of the propaganda surrounding this. Not necessarily the fires, I still don't think that. But the writing of the letters and that type of thing.

Narrator (31:26)

Warren says he believes Mark was only acting as csp, essentially Doing the marketing, not actually lighting the fire.

Mark Sands (31:36)

And daggummit, you got caught. That's the bummer of this thing, is it was your last time and you got caught. Almost like I knew I would.

Narrator (31:54)

Almost like I knew I would.

Mark Sands (31:56)

Mark says, I think it's God's will that you have gone.

Narrator (32:01)

Now Mark has a question for Warren.

Mark Sands (32:03)

Who's doing the arsons?

Narrator (32:05)

Then he asks, who's doing the arsons? Then?

Mark Sands (32:07)

I don't know. I can't see that. I can't see you doing the arson.

Narrator (32:17)

Warren is clinging to the possibility that, yes, Mark was involved in both writing on the sign and even sending those letters to the newspapers, but he wasn't the person who set the fires.

Mark Sands (32:28)

If what you say is true, why would I have gotten involved? Well, the. I think the media attention, something that you thrived on.

Narrator (32:41)

Warren tells Mark that his wife Mia also thinks the letters and the interview in the paper sound like Mark's words, too.

Mark Sands (32:49)

The price of sound like me, she thinks. Oh, yeah.

Narrator (32:52)

Mark starts to sound kind of smug, almost like he's delighted by the idea that someone saw him in those words.

Mark Sands (32:59)

Well, either ballsy or stupid. Whoever did it, right? Yep, a combination of both.

Narrator (33:06)

They keep hiking deeper and deeper into the canyon. Swirling around Warren's mind are those four questions he's yet to ask. Up on the rim of the canyon, Lieutenant Rob is waiting in his car.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (33:25)

We knew if we could just get the right circumstance, he would confess to Warren if Warren would continue. Warren was fragile. He was not comfortable in any of it. We have no communication directly with Warren.

Narrator (33:38)

It's 2001, so technology is not advanced enough to be listening to the hike live. Undercover cops dressed as hikers occasionally get a visual of Mark and Warren. But Rob and the others have no idea whether Warren has accomplished his mission. They'll just have to wait. Hours go by. The full moon rises to the middle of the sky, then sinks towards the horizon. It's been nearly 12 hours since the hike began. Finally, as the sun begins to rise, two men emerge over the lip of the canyon.

Warren Jerrems (34:17)

When we got to the top, Mark was exhausted.

Narrator (34:22)

Warren and Mark begin their long drive home. Mark crashes out in the passenger seat. As he rests, Warren is weeping silently behind the wheel. A few hours later, and they're back in Phoenix. Warren drops Mark off at his house. Then he heads to a local grocery store.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (34:44)

Warren pulled into that parking lot and we pulled in behind him, and Warren got out.

Warren Jerrems (34:49)

I kind of threw the backpack at him and said, here's everything you need.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (34:53)

He was crying Emotionally broke down, got.

Warren Jerrems (34:55)

In his car, and then I just left.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (34:57)

We're like, oh, geez. We couldn't get back fast enough and try to figure out what we had.

Mark Sands (35:04)

Okay, we'll try this one.

Narrator (35:07)

Back at the police station, the task force is crowded around a cassette player, listening intently. Hold those rocks, Warren says. Hold those rocks for me. Four of them. This is it, the moment they've been waiting for at the base of the Grand Canyon. With the sound of the Colorado river rushing before them, Warren has finally worked up the courage to ask Mark the fateful questions he's been carrying with him since they left Phoenix.

Mark Sands (35:39)

I don't want you to say anything. If anybody ever asked me, I don't want to be able to tell. Mark said no.

Narrator (35:44)

Yes on this, Warren tells Mark. I don't want you to say anything because if anyone ever asks me, I don't want to be able to tell them Mark said no or yes. I want to ask you four questions, he says. I'm going to ask you four questions.

Mark Sands (35:59)

The answer to the question is yes. Throw the rock away.

Narrator (36:02)

If the answer to the question is yes, throw the rock away.

Mark Sands (36:06)

The answer is question no. Hold on to it.

Narrator (36:08)

If the answer to the question is no, hold onto it.

Mark Sands (36:13)

Hey, what are your questions?

Narrator (36:14)

Okay, what are your questions?

Mark Sands (36:18)

Did you do the interview?

Narrator (36:19)

Downtown, a rock hits the ground.

Mark Sands (36:24)

Did you write the letters to the press? And to the.

Narrator (36:28)

Another rock bounces off the canyon floor. Warren skips the third question and goes straight to the heart of the matter.

Mark Sands (36:37)

Did you start any fires?

Narrator (36:39)

Did you start any fires?

Mark Sands (36:43)

You really want to go there?

Narrator (36:44)

Do you really want to go there? Mark asks. Warren gathers his courage and tries again, asking both of the remaining questions. Are you acting alone? And did you set the fires? They have two rocks and two questions, Mark says. Two rocks, two questions. Did you hear that? The faint sound of two rocks hit. Hitting the ground and then laughter. The answer to both questions is yes. They keep hiking. A few minutes later, Mark starts talking, really talking.

Mark Sands (37:34)

Can't never walk around the edges, you know, plunge in. I'm very confident. And yes, I would like to. You know, we've talked about evil. Yep. At times, evil can be part of your life and you have little or no control over it. I had several dreams about that house behind me. There are troubling dreams or dreams about.

Warren Jerrems (38:09)

Fire.

Mark Sands (38:13)

One night I did.

Narrator (38:21)

Back at the police station, the tape player clicks off. There's a moment of silence in the room as Rob and his team absorb what they've just heard. Way out in the wilderness at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Mark Sands confessed to starting the fires.

Lieutenant Rob Handy (38:42)

This is it. We got him. Everybody was just overwhelmingly relieved and happy and excited that this was going to come to an end. There's a lot of people that put a lot of blood, sweat and tears in that case.

Narrator (38:54)

The confession is the rock solid evidence. Rob and his team have been chasing this horrible whole time. Mark Sands did set the fires. He lied to his family, to Warren, to his whole community, pretending to be a concerned neighbor, while all along he was the arsonist. And not only that, the confession tape confirms what the task force had begun to suspect. Mark acted alone.

Special Agent Ken Williams (39:19)

Informants aren't giving us any information about some group called csp. Informants from all over the country were being asked about that.

Narrator (39:28)

There was no coalition to save the preserves. All those hundreds of hours spent hunting for a connection to a national eco terror network, and Mark turns out to be a lone wolf. One question remains. Why did he do it? Next time, in the final episode of the Arsonist Next Door, I go looking for the real Mark Sands.

Special Agent Ken Williams (39:54)

He wanted to bring attention to what was happening. We're building these multimillion dollar mansions while people are going without. I still think that the man's got evil in them.

Narrator (40:06)

And I find something I never expected. Mark Sands was not just lighting fires.

Danielle Sink (40:16)

He was going to level a lovely life hereafter, irrespective of what he had done to her.

Narrator (40:26)

Unlock all episodes of the Arsonist Next Door ad free right now by subscribing to the binge podcast channel. Not only will you immediately unlock all episodes of this show, but you'll get binge access to an entire network of other great true crime and investigative podcasts. All ad free. Plus, on the first of every month, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series that's all episodes all at once. Search for the binge on Apple podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page, not on apple. Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. The Arsonist Next Door is an original production of Sony Music Entertainment and novel. This series was written and reported by me, Sam Anderson. It was produced and reported by Leona Hamid. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr. Research by Zayana Youssef. Additional production from Tom Wright and G. Stiles. Our editor is Dave Anderson. Additional story editing from Max o' Brien. From Novel. Our executive producers are Max o' Brien and Craig Strachan from Sony Music Entertainment. Our executive producers are Catherine St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch. Sound design, mixing and scoring by Nicholas Alexander and Daniel Kempson. Our original theme song was composed and performed by Nicholas Alexander. Production management from Cherie Houston, Joe Savage, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolf Fact checking by Danya Suleiman Story development by Nell Gray Andrews. Novel's director of development is Selina Mehta and Willard Foxton is Novel's creative director of development. Special thanks to Jen Fifield, Libby Gough, Bob Kahn, Xander Adams, Anthony Wallace, Steve Ackerman, Carolyn Shur, Levin and the team at reviewed and cleared Mario Cacciator, Tolo, Isaac Fisher, Kevin Lee Karas, Jess Swinburne, Sonny Marr, Karly Frankel and the team at wme.