The Crimes of Margo Freshwater | 6. The Reckoning

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Binge Crimes: The Crimes of Margo Freshwater – Episode 6: The Reckoning

Release Date: February 9, 2026
Host: Cooper Maul (Sony Music Entertainment)

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Overview

In this emotionally charged finale, host Cooper Maul retraces the final, dramatic chapters in Margo Freshwater’s decades-long legal saga. After years on the run and a labyrinth of appeals, the story asks: Who truly bears the blame for a lifetime lost—Margo (now Tonya McCarter), the state, or the justice system itself? The episode moves through failed court bids, the enduring toll on loved ones, a pivotal plea deal, and reckonings with those who both condemned and chased Margo, exploring the complexities of justice, accountability, and the price of freedom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Legal Hurdles and the Fight for Exoneration

• Freshwater’s Recapture and New Evidence (00:25–02:19)

  • Recaptured after 32 years, Margo (Tonya) returns to prison. She maintains her innocence, buoyed by withheld evidence suggesting Glenn Nash confessed to the murder.
  • Defense attorney Stephen Ross Johnson dives into rarely used legal maneuvers to get the evidence considered.
  • Quote:

    “Evidence means nothing if there’s no legal way to show it to anyone.”
    — Cooper Maul (01:17)

• Technical and Ethical Roadblocks (02:19–05:47)

  • Filing a Coram Nobis claim (rare in Tennessee), Tonya’s team argues her escape shouldn’t bar new evidence.
  • The state, represented by John Campbell, counters that the delay is Tonya’s responsibility.
  • Judge Higgs ultimately denies relief, insisting “the delay was her fault” (03:58).
  • Quote:

    “It clouded the whole case. It clouded this legal issue.”
    — Stephen Ross Johnson (05:16)

2. Family Strain and Resilience

• Endurance and Hope (06:47–08:32)
  • Tonya’s family supports her tirelessly through visits that consume resources and time.
  • Quote:

    “Years of kids growing up in back seats, years of Tanya watching her family’s life unfold in three hour increments across a prison table.”
    — Cooper Maul (08:23)

3. Breakthrough: The Supreme Court and a New Trial

• Appellate Victories and Legal Gradations (09:09–15:21)
  • The Tennessee Supreme Court eventually rules Tonya is entitled to a hearing on new evidence, particularly suppressed exculpatory evidence.
  • The distinction between legal standards—“would have” versus “may have” changed the verdict—becomes the turning point.
  • Quote:

    “That single shift from ‘Would’ to ‘May’ turned the case upside down.”
    — Cooper Maul (14:24)

  • In 2011, after nine exhausting years, Tonya’s conviction is reversed.

4. Retrial Risks and Plea Bargain Dilemmas

• Facing a Retrial and Best Interest Plea (18:26–24:54)

  • Tonya faces a difficult choice: fight for total exoneration or accept an Alford (best interest) plea, maintaining innocence while conceding the state could likely convict.
  • Family pleas and her own exhaustion eventually sway her.
  • Quotes:

    "I always told Steve I would not plead guilty to something I didn’t do.”
    — Tonya McCarter (21:58)
    “I knew they would do the same thing if I went to court... I know if I go to court, [Steve]'ll stick right there beside me. And so I decided that’s what I was going to plea with.”
    — Tonya McCarter (23:35–24:41)

• Release and Aftermath (25:00–28:32)

  • Tonya is released at age 63; her family describes anxiety about her actual freedom and relief upon leaving Tennessee.
  • Notable Moment:
    Tonya, finally home, kneels to touch the carpet—savoring mundane freedoms denied for decades.

5. Personal Reckonings and Conversations with the Past

• The Juror’s Remorse (28:41–31:13)

  • Ken Armstrong, the original juror who wanted to acquit Margo, seeks forgiveness decades later.

  • Quote:

    “He said, I never got an opportunity to tell her I’m sorry... I just don’t want to talk to her on the phone. I want to see her before I die.” — Stephen Ross Johnson recounting Ken Armstrong (29:14)

  • The emotional reunion brings closure to both.

• The Detective’s Guilt (31:42–36:05)

  • Greg Costas, the investigator who tracked Tonya down, is compelled to reconnect, unsure why.
  • Their meeting is marked by mutual forgiveness; Tonya tells him, “I have no ill will toward you. You were just doing your job.”
  • Quote:

    “The human element part of it kind of took me off guard.”
    — Greg Costas (33:59)

• Perspective from the FBI (37:45–38:20)

  • Even the FBI agent sees Margo as a victim of coercion and laments the system’s failure:

    “The system could have helped her… Because he takes up with a lawyer, for God’s sake, and then this guy’s a nut, and he does the shooting and he gets off… How’s that fair?”
    — Richard Knudsen (38:20)

6. Reflections on Injustice and Identity

• Irrevocable Loss, Self-Reclamation, and Public Story (38:40-end)
  • The episode closes with Cooper Maul reflecting on Tonya’s irretrievable lost time and the shift from legend to reality.
  • Quote:

    “No ruling, no reversal, no belated acknowledgment of the truth can return all that time to her. But she can finally name what was taken. She can finally claim who she is.”
    — Cooper Maul (38:40)

  • For the first time, Tonya isn’t hiding behind an alias, finally “getting straight with everyone,” her story told in the court of public opinion.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On systemic justice:

  “Fighting was easy. Getting a judge to even open the door was the trickier part.”
  — Cooper Maul (01:01)

• Family’s unrelenting commitment:

  “We would leave like Friday night… drive straight through… visit her for 3 or 4 hours, get right back in the car and drive straight back to Ohio.”
  — Family Member (08:04–08:16)

• Legal nuance that changed everything:

  “One [legal standard] is a potential, one is a probability.”
  — Stephen Ross Johnson (14:05)

• On the emotional toll of lost time:

  “Court filings, briefs, hearings that came and went, seasons changing outside the office window while Steven poured everything he had into a fight that refused to end.”
  — Cooper Maul (15:37)

• On walking free:

  “When I came home, I did kneel down and feel the carpet and thought, oh, that feels so nice.”
  — Tonya McCarter (27:18)

• Reunion with remorseful juror:

  “I just want to see her before I die.”
  — Ken Armstrong, via Stephen Ross Johnson (29:20)

• With the man who put her behind bars:

  “You were just doing your job. And tears formed in his eyes. He said, you don’t know how much that means to me.”
  — Tonya McCarter (33:29)

• The insight of the original FBI agent:

  “We can see the inequity of the whole darn thing.”
  — Richard Knudsen (38:13)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:25 – Margo’s recapture and the fight over new evidence
• 03:30 – John Campbell’s rationale for blocking new evidence
• 08:16 – Family’s struggles to maintain connection
• 15:05 – The state Supreme Court overturns the conviction
• 19:03 – Prosecutors prepare (reluctantly) for a retrial
• 21:58 – Tonya’s initial refusal to plead guilty
• 24:41 – Her difficult decision to accept the Alford plea
• 27:18 – Reentry and savoring freedom’s small pleasures
• 29:14 – The juror seeks closure with Tonya
• 33:29 – The investigator and the fugitive find mutual absolution
• 38:40 – Final reflections; what’s lost, and what can finally be reclaimed

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Tone and Atmosphere

The episode is both investigative and deeply empathetic, balancing rigorous legal detail with emotional storytelling. Maul’s narration is reflective, weaving together voices of conviction, weariness, and healing. Ultimately, it signals an end to “the myth of Margot” and the beginning of Tonya’s hard-won authenticity, closing out the series as much with humanity as with fact.

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Concluding Thought

The Reckoning is less about final answers than about hard-won peace—showing that, in the end, exoneration is rarely total, but sometimes freedom lies in reclaiming one’s own story.

Transcript

[Cooper Maul]

Listen to all episodes of the Crimes of Margot Freshwater ad free right now by subscribing to the Binge. Visit the Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page or visit getthebinge.com to get access. Wherever you listen the Binge feed your true crime obsession.

[Tonya McCarter]

The binge.

[Cooper Maul]

Margo Freshwater was finally recaptured in Ohio in 2002.

[Narrator/Host]

Now she's in prison here in Tennessee.

[Cooper Maul]

But Freshwater says she didn't do the crime that landed her a 99 year.

[Narrator/Host]

Sentence and she has the evidence to prove it.

[Cooper Maul]

The Memphis newscasters made it sound like her lawyers could just fight their way back into court. Lawyers for Freshwater say this could be the breakthrough that they're looking for. Evidence could be presented that was never heard before. Evidence that is a jailhouse statement from an informant saying that Freshwater is not the killer.

[Tonya McCarter]

And her lawyers say if this doesn't.

[Cooper Maul]

Work, they will continue to fight. Fighting was easy. Getting a judge to even open the door was the trickier part. Tonya had new evidence, the confession from Glenn Nash that he alone killed Hillman Robbins Sr. But evidence means nothing if there's no legal way to show it to anyone.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

I had to figure out a creative way to get it back into court.

[Cooper Maul]

That's Stephen Ross Johnson, one of Tanya's.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

Lawyers, because you gotta remember it's been 32 years since she escaped.

[Cooper Maul]

Once the deadlines and statutes of limitations have passed, that kind of proof is.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

Basically locked out in Tennessee in general. Any newly discovered evidence you've got to present in post conviction proceedings. But you have to file that one year after your conviction has become final.

[Cooper Maul]

Post conviction law doesn't give you much room to work with. You can only raise constitutional issues. And luckily Stephen had one. A Brady violation. The prosecutor had withheld evidence that supported Tanya's claim of innocence in a death penalty trial, which is about as serious as it gets. But even with that, they were decades past the deadline to file it.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

So we decided, let's file a Corum Nobis claim.

[Cooper Maul]

It's used when somebody has already been convicted, has no appeals left, and then new evidence surfaces that couldn't have been found earlier and might have changed the outcome. Think of it like going back to the judge and saying, if you had known this back then, things could have turned out differently. And here's the proof. It's rare and it succeeds even more rarely. And in the spring of 2003, Tonya was brought back into a Tennessee courtroom for the first time since the world was being rocked by Woodstock. Stephen Ross Johnson and Bob Ritchie showed up with a bold claim that the 32 year delay should have been forgiven because the state had caused it. Tanya didn't know about Nash's confession. Her trial lawyer didn't know. But the prosecution had a simpler answer. One they thought ended the conversation before it began.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

John Campbell's position was, on its face, it should be denied because it's out of time.

[Cooper Maul]

John Campbell, you heard his voice in our first episode today. He's a judge on the Court of Criminal Appeals in Tennessee, but in 2003, he was the assistant District attorney for Shelby County.

[John Campbell]

My first reaction when I saw this filing was, you know, she had escaped for 32 years and it seemed to me kind of a stretch to believe that she could still prosecute a claim after she had absent herself for so many years.

[Cooper Maul]

It didn't matter that the evidence had been tucked away in a file for decades.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

There's a provision of the Cornobis statute that says you must be without fault in failing to present the evidence at the appropriate time.

[John Campbell]

The delay was her fault.

[Cooper Maul]

There was an added difficulty for Tonya's defense. Stephen and his colleague Bob Richie were stepping into unfamiliar territory.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

We all had no clue what the court would do. We were in front of Judge Otis Higgs. We'd never been in front of Judge Higgs before.

[Cooper Maul]

And the pressure didn't stop there. Tanya's family filled the benches, watching every move, every word. They were counting on Stephen and Bob to finally break the cycle that had trapped her for decades. John Campbell, though, got a more hostile reaction from Tanya's relatives.

[John Campbell]

Every time I walked by them, they looked like they were going to kill me. I mean, talk about getting stared down. They would just stare me down. I've tried some really bad people and I haven't really had a reaction like that from family members. I really haven't.

[Cooper Maul]

This hearing wasn't about getting justice for Tonya or what the evidence showed. It was simpler, harsher. Whose fault was the decades long delay? The state's, because the original prosecutor, Terri Lafferty, suppressed the evidence? Or Tanya's for running? Tanya's escape, something she'd never be able to undo, had become the very thing blocking the truth she'd been trying to surface her entire adult life.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

It clouded the whole case. It clouded this legal issue. For every proceeding Judge Higgs listened to.

[Cooper Maul]

He measured the escape against the accusation that the state had buried exculpatory evidence. And then came the decision.

[John Campbell]

Judge Higgs originally found that because of her actions and the fact that it was way over a year. And the fact that a lot of the witnesses that would be necessary are now dead, that she shouldn't get relief.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

It was denied.

[Cooper Maul]

But there was something Judge Higgs wasn't considering in his decision that presupposes that.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

She would have uncovered it. Right. And there's no suggestion that she even would have been able to uncover it within that year. That makes no sense. It only came to light because of the passage of time.

[Cooper Maul]

Steven had expected a long fight. He just didn't expect the first blow to land so hard or so early. Neither he nor Tanya could have foreseen just how long the legal road would be. But in the end, deliverance came from an unexpected place. From Sony Music Entertainment and Glass Podcasts, this is the finale of the Crimes of Margot Freshwater. I'm Cooper Maul. Episode 6 the Reckoning.

[Tonya McCarter]

I knew Steve was working hard to get me out. I believed in him.

[Cooper Maul]

By then, Tanya had come to trust him. Their relationship was unlike any lawyer client relationship I've ever known. Professional, but also intimate. Tanya has this need to be seen to be believed.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

I told her, I don't know how long this is going to take, but I'm going to do everything I can to get you out and I'm just going to keep fighting.

[Tonya McCarter]

I had a lot of support from my family and friends. I had people from the church sending me cards. My minister would come down every three months from Ohio to visit with me. My husband was coming down every other week. My children would come down to see me. And it helped me keep my. My spirits high.

[Cooper Maul]

While lawyers were trading briefs, Tanya's family was trading sleep, gas money and whole weekends just to get a few hours with her.

[Family Member (possibly Tim or Casey)]

We were a young family just starting out. We didn't have money for like a hotel or anything like that. So we would leave like Friday night.

[Greg Costas]

Like in the middle of the night, like two or three in the morning.

[Family Member (possibly Tim or Casey)]

So that the babies could sleep in the car. And we would drive straight through all the way to Nashville, visit her. For what did we get? 4 hours?

[Greg Costas]

3 or 4 hours?

[Family Member (possibly Tim or Casey)]

3 or 4 hours, get right back in the car and drive straight back to Ohio. Cranky kids, you know, sleeping in the car for two days and, you know, the only playtime that they were getting was in a prison visitation.

[Cooper Maul]

Those visits became their routine. Months of waiting turned into years of driving through the night. Years of kids growing up in back seats, years of Tanya watching her family's life unfold in three hour increments across a prison table. When Judge Higgs Denied Tonya's petition. In 2002, Steven knew the real fight was just beginning. He appealed that decision. And after four years of arguments and counter appeals, Tonya's case ended up before the Tennessee Supreme Court. By that point, the question became simple. Would the supreme court let this fight continue or kill it?

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

So we won. But we won a hearing in front of the same judge that had denied.

[Cooper Maul]

Us before the state supreme court agreed with Steven and his team. The new evidence in Tanya's case that suppressed confession should be heard. And once it landed back in Memphis, everything slowed to a crawl again. Dates had to be set. Records had to be pulled. By the time the hearing was finally scheduled in 2006, four years had passed since Stephen first filed the petition. And in that stretch of time, Steven's fight became even more personal.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

Bob Richie passed away from cancer. I'd lost my mentor. He had died in the middle of this fight. Tanya needed my help. But another motivating factor here was I wanted to finish what he and I had started together.

[Cooper Maul]

Now Stephen had to walk into that courtroom alone and prove what the state had hidden. In 1969, I called Terry Lafferty as.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

A witness in front of judge Higgs in court and testified under his portrait in the courtroom and admitted to the Brady violation. Said that he suppressed that statement from Johnny Box that had Glenn Nash's confession and that he was told by a supervisor not to produce it.

[Cooper Maul]

And there was somebody else from Tonya's original trial, somebody unexpected. Ken Armstrong, the last surviving member of the all male jury that condemned Tonya to 99 years in prison. When Tonya's capture made headlines, Ken got in touch with Steven.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

He said, I'm so glad you're trying to help her. I've always thought that she was innocent. I think that I made a mistake at her trial. In fact, the other jurors wanted to give her death. I wanted to acquit her because I believed her story. I compromised. And we gave her 99 years.

[Cooper Maul]

And Ken had more to reveal, things no one had ever put on the record.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

He said that even though they were sequestered, the bailiff would, in the middle of the trial, bring newspapers in to let them read. The newspapers would allow them to have access to the local television news. And you got to remember, this case had already gone through two mistrials in Mississippi. There was a lot of media attention surrounding this case had been sensationalized. And now she's being tried in Memphis.

[Cooper Maul]

There's a rule in the law that says you can't use someone's past accusations or bad acts against them. Bringing it up at trial is unfairly prejudicial. So it's usually kept out.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

And so the jury hearing about the murder of the cab driver in Mississippi and how she had been charged with that with Glenn Nash, and she'd gone through two trials and they'd been mistried. The jury hadn't convicted her, but she'd gone through two trials. The jurors were not supposed to have known any of that in the case.

[Cooper Maul]

In Tennessee when Stephen called Ken Armstrong as a witness. Stephen asked Ken if they had known about the suppressed evidence back in the 1969 trial. But they have convicted Margo Freshwater.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

And he said no, they wouldn't have.

[Cooper Maul]

But it still wasn't enough.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

Judge Higgs said that none of that would have mattered because even if she wasn't a shooter, Margo Freshwater still could have gotten convicted as an aider and.

[Cooper Maul]

A better remember in her original trial. Part of the problem was that under Tennessee law, Tonya was considered an accomplice just by virtue of being there when the murder happened.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

And Judge Higgs found that, and the state argued it didn't matter whether she was a shooter or not. What mattered was she was there. She participated. She waited on the customer in the liquor store. She stayed with Glenn Nash after he committed this murder in Memphis. And that those facts helped to evidence her intent to offer aid, encouragement, support, and to participate in the robbery and the homicide.

[Cooper Maul]

Judge Higgs denied the appeal. Again.

[Tonya McCarter]

I told everyone from the get go that I wouldn't just walk out. Tennessee wasn't going to allow that to happen. I was going to have to enter a plea of some kind of or I would go to trial. It just made me tougher. I know I'm going home. No matter how long it takes, I know I'm going home.

[Cooper Maul]

Here's the thing. Judge Higgs wasn't applying the law the way Tennessee required. He treated the new evidence like it had to guarantee a different outcome when the statute had a much lower bar. And so Stephen appealed again. Under Tennessee law, the question wasn't whether the evidence would have changed the verdict. It was whether it may have changed the verdict. A distinction that sounds subtle but carries the weight of someone's entire future.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

I argued that the court applied the wrong legal standard because would have necessarily is a higher standard to meet than may have. One is a potential, one is a probability.

[Cooper Maul]

And that single shift from Wood to May turned the case upside down. It meant the wrong test had been used all along.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

We go and we argue the appeal. Now for the third time, you make.

[Cooper Maul]

Your case to the appellate judges and then everything goes quiet. The panel takes the arguments back, their clerks dig into the record and the judges review it all themselves. They decide how they're going to rule and draft a written opinion. That whole process can take a long time, a really long time.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

So we're waiting and we wait months for that opinion to come out.

[Cooper Maul]

Until one day the silence finally broke.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

I got the email from the court, the chief deputy clerk here for the appellate courts, and I opened up the opinion and I can remember I just started crying. They reversed the convictions and grant her a new trial.

[Cooper Maul]

Nine years after Steven first met Tanya's family in a Knoxville conference room, the highest court in the state overturned her conviction.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

I felt like it was the culmination of all those years of work and all those years of just life passing by.

[Cooper Maul]

Court filings, briefs, hearings that came and went, seasons changing outside the office window while Steven poured everything he had into a fight that refused to end.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

At that time, that same year, I'd lost my dad. He had passed away. I remember getting this decision was a bright spot. I knew the fight wasn't over, but I knew that I had the momentum at that point and that the state was gonna have a difficult time retrying her based on 40 year old evidence.

[Narrator/Host]

Can't get enough of the story of Margot Freshwater? Do you need more than the episodes can provide? Real quick? We just launched a free true crime newsletter and community page to go along with our binge shows, including the crimes of Margo Freshwater, and you can access it at the link in our episode description [e-mail] thebinge you'll get behind the scenes reporting, case updates, and a chance to chat with one of the show's creators and other fans. The newsletter comes out twice a month. It's totally free and it's where the story continues. I'll see you there. Just hit the link in the description or head to patreon.com thebinge a well built wardrobe is really about pieces that work together and hold up over time. That's what Quince does best. Premium materials, thoughtful design, and everyday staples that feel easy to wear and easy to rely on, especially as the weather starts to shift. Quinn's has the everyday essentials I keep coming back to with quality that lasts. Organic cotton sweaters, polos for work and pretty much any occasion. And lighter jackets that keep you warm without feeling bulky. It's the kind of stuff you can wear all day and not think twice about. One piece I've seriously been considering lately is their 100% organic cotton ribbed stitch polo sweater. It's got that perfect in between feel. More polished than a regular sweater but but still comfortable and casual enough for everyday wear. Something I could throw on for a recording session, a meeting or heading out to dinner and still feeling put together. Quince works directly with top factories to cut out the middlemen. So you're not paying for the brand markup, just quality, just quality clothing. Everything is built to hold up to daily wear and still look good season after season. And they only partner with factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. Honestly, the wool coat I picked up from Quince is holding up way better than any of the coats I bought that cost so much more. It looks good, keeps me warm and didn't break the bank. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com crimes for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com crimes, free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Cooper Maul]

Quince.com crimes winning the appeal didn't set Tonya free. It reset the clock.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

Now it's 2011. Nine years later. Tanya is nine years older and the state I was hoping would just say, okay, game over, we're done. She served nine years in prison. Enough's enough. But that was not what they were going to do.

[Cooper Maul]

Her conviction was gone, but now she was simply a defendant again. Decades after the murder of Hillman Robbins Sr. Even prosecutor John Campbell knew the case had turned into a relic.

[John Campbell]

You're stuck with having a retry case basically by just getting up there and reading a transcript. It kind of takes the emotional hook out of it and the personal hook out of it. And the jury's just left with a cold reading of the record. And of course she's still here and she could testify and she'd be the only live witness the jury would hear. She's going to be sitting there in the courtroom the whole time looking like grandma. You run the risk of people feeling sorry for and that's something you have to take into consideration.

[Cooper Maul]

But Campbell also wasn't about to let her walk.

[John Campbell]

I wanted her to be convicted.

[Cooper Maul]

And he wasn't the only one.

[Tonya McCarter]

We are terribly upset that this keeps going on and on and on and on.

[Cooper Maul]

That's Susan Robbins west, the granddaughter of the man that Nash murdered in Memphis, Hillman Robbins Sr. Susan has since Passed away. This audio is from an interview she gave to a local television News station in 2011. I know God's gonna eventually put the final judgment on her, but she definitely needs to serve time. I mean, she's acting like she misses her family.

[Tonya McCarter]

Well, you know what?

[Cooper Maul]

It affected our families. Susan isn't wrong. Her family never got anything close to justice. Think about it. Nash. The man who actually pulled the trigger walked away without serving a single day in prison. No one was really ever held accountable for the murder of Susan's grandfather. Then decades later, after they'd tried to heal, after they'd done the work of moving on, they were being dragged back into the same trauma all. All over again. Tanya was there the night he died. She didn't fire the gun, but she couldn't save him either. And she got to build a life afterward. She has a family. Susan barely had memories of her grandfather. I understand why that would sting, why that anger would feel righteous. If it were my blood, I think I'd feel the same way. A retrial wouldn't happen overnight. There was a door out. But it required Tanya to do the one thing she had refused to do for more than four decades.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

I met John Campbell in Nashville, and we sat down, and we were talking through a potential resolution here that would get Tanya home. And we came up with something fairly creative.

[Cooper Maul]

A plea deal.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

The only way we could do it was as a best interest plea. And I told him, she's innocent.

[Cooper Maul]

A best interest plea, also known as an Alford plea, allowed Tonya to enter a guilty plea while maintaining her innocence. By taking this path, she would be acknowledging that if a trial were held, the state would likely have enough evidence to convict her despite her innocence. And here's the problem with that.

[Tonya McCarter]

I always told Steve I would not plead guilty to something I didn't do.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

I had a tricky decision to propose to Tanya. It was her decision, but I have a path to get you home now. Or do we stay and fight? And I'm with you. I'll fight. But it's also my job to look out for your best interest.

[Tonya McCarter]

So I called home and I talked to Darryl, and he said, well, you're going to have to make a plea. And I said, no, I'm not going to plea. He said, well, you don't have to plead that you're guilty. And I said, I've told everybody how I feel about this. So we went back and forth on it, and he told me, Steve said that I would choose to go to court. And Campbell told him well, if she goes to court, it'll be at least a year or two before she sees the inside of a courtroom. And I told Darrell, I guess I won't be coming home because I'm not going to plead. By this time, I'm crying. And he said, it's not fair to me and the kids. We know you're innocent.

[Cooper Maul]

When Tonya hung up, she carried the weight of the decision back to her cell, her family, her health, the years slipping away. And for the first time, she let herself wonder whether innocence was something she had to prove.

[Tonya McCarter]

So I went back to the room and I was crying and praying and asking the Lord, please let me know what to do. And I ended up falling asleep, crying, crying myself to sleep. And when I woke up the next morning, I knew what I was going to do. I was going to plea because I knew how they had drug it out nine plus years after getting the evidence found back in 2002. And I knew they would do the same thing if I went to court. And I thought, it's not fair to Daryl, it's not fair to my kids, and it's definitely not fair to Steve because Steve has worked so long and hard on this over the years and I can't put him through this anymore. And I know if I go to court, he'll stick right there beside me. And so I decided that's what I was going to play with.

[Cooper Maul]

A single signature. In the fall of 2011, Tanya traded the fight for freedom for the rest of her life with her family. In a way, through this compromise, everyone got what they wanted.

[John Campbell]

She's convicted, she stands convicted of it. And whether it's an Alford plea or not, it's still a conviction.

[Cooper Maul]

John Campbell got his guilty plea. Tanya got to go home. And Steven's now decade long battle to get Tonya free was finally won.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

In as stunning a turnaround, 63 year old Margo Freshwater pleaded guilty on Friday to first degree murder in the 1966 death of Store clerk Hillman Robbins. It was agreed that she would get credit for all time served. We anticipate once all of her sentencing credits are calculated by the Department of Corrections that she'll be released in the next few days.

[Cooper Maul]

Nobody was anticipating her return more than her husband, Daryl.

[John Campbell]

It's been a tough experience and it's.

[Cooper Maul]

Something that I would not want any.

[John Campbell]

Couple to have to go through.

[Cooper Maul]

But when you have two people that.

[John Campbell]

Are in love and they marry for better, for worse, they just get the worst out of the road first, I guess. And that's what we've done. And we've managed to keep our relationship as solid as it was the day we met. I'm looking forward to us rejoining our lives together.

[Cooper Maul]

And On Halloween night 2011, Tim McCarter's cell phone buzzed.

[Greg Costas]

We were walking for Trick or Treat, and some news outlet called and had mentioned that, you know, she's gonna be coming home soon. And they were trying to pinpoint a time and day because they all wanted to come and be there.

[Cooper Maul]

Tim and Casey wanted to get ahead of the media frenzy. They were still shell shocked from the circus. After Tanya had been arrested.

[Greg Costas]

We just got in the car, drove down there, kind of played it off like it wasn't going to happen on.

[Cooper Maul]

November 1st outside the Shelby County Jail. It almost didn't feel real.

[Family Member (possibly Tim or Casey)]

We're waiting for her out front, and we're like, are they going to find a reason to arrest her as soon as she walks out the door? We were still doubting it till she walked out.

[Cooper Maul]

And when the gates finally opened, we.

[Family Member (possibly Tim or Casey)]

Embraced for maybe a second and threw the stuff in the car and left. We didn't feel safe until we got.

[Cooper Maul]

Out of the state of Tennessee. The three of them took off like a bat out of hell.

[Greg Costas]

We took the closest way out of Tennessee. She wanted out of there as quick as possible.

[Cooper Maul]

And once Tanya crossed back into Ohio, she let herself exhale for the first time.

[Tonya McCarter]

When I came home, I did kneel down and feel the carpet and thought, oh, that feels so nice. And I just ran my fingers through it. And then I went into the kitchen, opened the refrigerator and looked around the house because it was the first time I'd seen the house because Darrell bought it while I was in Nashville.

[Cooper Maul]

Tanya did what she's always done best. She started over.

[Tonya McCarter]

After I touched the carpet and opened the refrigerator, I got a piece of paper and pencil and made my list of everything that I needed to do.

[Cooper Maul]

Legally changing her name to Tanya, obtaining her original birth certificate, a temporary driver's license.

[Tonya McCarter]

And as I accomplished that, I would check everything off.

[Cooper Maul]

Tonya had spent decades surviving by erasing herself. Now the irony was impossible to ignore. Only by being caught did she finally get to exist. She no longer had to pretend she was someone else. She was free. For the first time in 45 years, Tonya McCarter got to live as herself. Tanya hadn't even finished settling back into her own home when the past found its way back to her.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

She had just been reunited with her family, celebrating their first Thanksgiving together in nearly a decade.

[Cooper Maul]

For the first time in a long time her life was quiet. Then Stephen Johnson's phone rang.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

I got a call from Ken Armstrong, the juror. And by now, Ken Armstrong is in his late 70s. He's not doing well, but he goes, oh, my gosh. I saw where you won, and you got her out to her family, and I'm so happy.

[Cooper Maul]

Remember, Ken Armstrong was the lone holdout in a jury room that wanted Margot to receive the death penalty.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

And he said, I never got an opportunity to tell her I'm sorry. I would love to talk with her and to tell her I'm so sorry. And he said, I really want to see her. I just don't want to talk to her on the phone. I want to see her before I die.

[Cooper Maul]

Stephen knew how hard this could be for Tonya.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

The last place in the world she wanted to be was Memphis, Tennessee.

[Cooper Maul]

But he called her anyway, and she.

[Stephen Ross Johnson]

Said, I'll drive down and come see him.

[Cooper Maul]

On a cold December morning, Tanya headed toward Tennessee. She brought her friend sue along. Together they drove back through the same state line she once crossed as a fugitive, all to answer the request of a dying man. By the time they reached Memphis, the sun was low. She and sue pulled into a quiet neighborhood, a small house.

[Tonya McCarter]

And we went in, and Ken was sitting in his wheelchair. And we saw each other, and we hugged. And he said, are you okay? I've got to know that you're okay. And I said, yes, Ken, I'm okay, because you saved my life. And he said, I felt this guilt for 32 years. He said, I tried everything I could after I gave that verdict. No one would listen to me. And he said, I just felt so bad.

[Cooper Maul]

Two people bound by a verdict, neither of them ever fully escaped, finally sharing the truth out loud.

[Tonya McCarter]

When I say he saved my life, he saved my life. That man will always have a place in my heart.

[Cooper Maul]

Ken didn't have long after that visit. But before he died, he got what he'd been reaching for since 1969. The chance to look her in the eye and know she was still there. Tanya drove back to Ohio carrying something she had never had from anyone connected to that trial. Absolution. Ken Armstrong wasn't the only man from Margot's past with unfinished business.

[Tonya McCarter]

After I got home, I went out to the mailbox, and there was a card in the mailbox. And as soon as I saw the name, I was aware of who it was.

[Cooper Maul]

The name on the card was one she knew well. Greg Costas, the man who'd tracked her down and put her behind bars. What the hell did he want?

[Greg Costas]

I don't know why. I really don't know why. But there was something gnawing at me. So I took a business card and I drove to where she was living. And I put a business card in her mailbox with no note, nothing, Just a business card.

[Cooper Maul]

To Costas, it seemed like a benign gesture. Not to Tanya.

[Tonya McCarter]

And I got scared, and I went inside and I called my son Tim.

[Greg Costas]

And the next day, I got a call from Tim Hudkins, her son. And he said, my mom told me you put a business card in our mailbox. I just said, I want to talk to her, and I want to know if she'll talk to me.

[Tonya McCarter]

Tim called me back, and he said he wants to meet with you. I said, why? And he said, he says he just has to meet with you.

[Cooper Maul]

I wanted to know why too.

[Greg Costas]

I had no idea. I had no idea. But something was just driving me.

[Cooper Maul]

Tanya agreed to meet with Costas, but not alone. She brought Tim and Casey with her. They chose a Panera Bread in a Columbus suburb called Hilliard. Neutral, public, and unassuming. A place built for casual lunches, not reckonings.

[Greg Costas]

When I was walking out of the house, I said, this is either gonna take four minutes or four hours.

[Tonya McCarter]

Greg came in, and we all sat.

[Cooper Maul]

Down at the table, and she actually.

[Greg Costas]

Gave me a hug.

[Tonya McCarter]

I sat across from Greg. I looked at Greg and I said, well, before we get started, I want you to know I don't hold anything against you. You were just doing your job. And tears formed in his eyes. He said, you don't know how much that means to me.

[Cooper Maul]

Costas came because something unresolved had lodged itself in him, something he couldn't shake until he faced the woman he had spent a decade hunting.

[Greg Costas]

I don't know that I felt guilty because I was doing my job, but I didn't realize the ripple effects that it would have. And that's what was eye opening to me. The human element part of it kind of took me off guard.

[Cooper Maul]

Costas was just starting to understand what the case had taken out of Tanya's life. But her family didn't need that revelation. They'd felt those ripple effects for almost 10 years.

[Family Member (possibly Tim or Casey)]

We bought our first house, had two more babies, changed careers, literally. She missed probably, like, a key 10 years. Our most grown up, you know, from like 20 to 30, when you do your most maturing and growing. She was absent from all of that.

[Cooper Maul]

Costas didn't see any of that from his side of the badge, not until Now. And when Tonya opened her mouth, what she gave him wasn't resentment.

[Greg Costas]

She said, look, I. I forgive you. I have no ill will toward you. You've been very professional, and you've been a gentleman throughout this whole thing. And I understand that you were just doing your job.

[Cooper Maul]

Four minutes became four hours. Tanya had learned the man who chased her wasn't the law abiding son of a bitch she imagined. And Costas learned the fugitive he'd fixated on wasn't the villain he'd been trained to catch. Two people who once stood on opposite sides of a manhunt found themselves in a booth, sharing something much less dramatic and far more human. Recognition.

[Greg Costas]

We exchanged phone numbers, and she said, you can call me anytime. And I told her if she ever needed anything from me, that she could call me. I just said, I really appreciate this. And it's weird because I never did anything like that before. And I never did anything like that after that. I wanted to talk to a defendant of any sort of case that I ever worked.

[Cooper Maul]

But this case wasn't like anything else he ever worked. He wasn't chasing Margot Freshwater anymore. He was trying to make sense of Tonya McCarter and of the younger version of himself who once believed catching her was the whole story. And that was the moment something clicked for me. Because Tonya doesn't let people into her life easily. But she does have a soft spot for a very specific group of people. The ones who knew her as Margot. The ones who hold pieces of a past even after Tanya had let Margot die. And I think that holds a quiet significance for her. These are the rare people who know her with the ease of longtime friends. And she didn't get many of those in the life she built. Costas is one of those people. Here's what's strange. When I first reached out to Tonya, she had Costas call me up to get a feel for me. She never would have met me if he hadn't given his blessing. In fact, when Tonya and I first spoke in person, she required that Costas be there, too. The man who once spent a decade chasing her became the bridge that allowed her to tell her story. And maybe that's why she walked into that Panera. Because letting Costa see her, really see her, was a way to bury the myth of Margot Freshwater and to fully embrace being Tanya. It wasn't just Greg Costas. Even the FBI agent who hunted Tanya in the 70s came around, too. Richard Knudsen also started to see that Margot had been telling the Truth that she had been coerced.

[Richard Knudsen]

All of us were somewhat protected, protective of her. I have three daughters. We always told our daughters, you know, be careful the people you date and you get associated with, or they'll get you in trouble. And I can't tell you how many cases through the years that that's been the case where it's been an innocent young lady and she gets tied up with the wrong guy and her whole life is thrown into a spin. And that's what we thought it was. We can see the inequity of the whole darn thing.

[Tonya McCarter]

He kept going back to Tennessee saying, this woman shouldn't be in prison. Let me offer her family a deal.

[Richard Knudsen]

The system could have helped her. She had a good appeal, as far as I was concerned, just to the emotions of the situation. Because he takes up with a lawyer, for God's sake, and then this guy's a nut, and he does the shooting and he gets off to serving in a private mental institution. How's that fair?

[Cooper Maul]

I walked into this project thinking I knew what this case was. But now, knowing the new evidence, knowing how Tonya never wanted anyone dead, it's all so much clearer to me. The frightened teenager who bore the blame grew into a woman who should have never lost a moment of her life to a prison sentence. The girl who went on the run became a woman who lost decades she should have never had to forfeit. She missed the opportunity to rebuild her relationships with her mom and brother. She also missed their funerals. She never got to say goodbye to the people who once loved Margot, like her Aunt Leona, who she'd only seen glancingly when she bumped into her at a department store. Because disappearing was the only way to stay alive. No ruling, no reversal, no belated acknowledgment of the truth can return all that time to her. But she can finally name what was taken. She can finally claim who she is. And maybe this podcast. Agreeing to sit down, talk, remember, let herself be seen, was the final step, the last door she had to walk through. She's taken her story to a bigger court than any she ever stood in. The court of public opinion. The people who've never heard her voice, the ones who'd only ever known the myth she isn't hiding anymore. This time she's getting straight with everyone. Unlock all episodes of the Crimes of Margo Freshwater ad free right now by subscribing to the Binge podcast channel. Not only will you immediately unlock all episodes of this show, but you'll get binge access to an entire network of other great true crime and investigative podcasts. All ad free. Plus on the first of every month, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series that's all episodes all at once. Search for the binge on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page not on apple. Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. The Crimes of Margo Freshwater is an original production of Sony Music Entertainment and Glass Podcasts. It was hosted and reported by me, Cooper Maul. Maura Walls is our story editor. Our executive producers are Catherine St. Louis, Jonathan Hirsch, Nancy Glass, Ben Federman and Andrea Gunning. Sound design and editing by Anna McLean, mixed and mastered by Matt Del Vecchio. Our theme music was composed by Oliver Baines. We use music from Mibe and Epidemic Sound. Our production managers are Sammy Allison and Kristin Melchiori. Our lawyer is Michael Belkin. Special thanks to Steve Ackerman, Emily Rasik and Carrie Hartman. Please rate and review the Crimes of Margot Freshwater. It helps people find our show.