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[00:02]
Narrator/Advertiser
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[00:23]
Kevin Fagan
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[00:24]
Narrator/Advertiser
Does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com BlueCruise for more details.
[00:32]
Kevin Fagan
The Binge you're listening to the Doodler a re Release series from the Binge Archives. If you're a subscriber to the Binge, you can listen to all episodes ad free right now. Visit the Binge channel on apple podcasts or getthebinge.com to browse all the great shows on the channel. The Binge Feed your true crime obsession this series contains depictions of violent assault and murder. Listener discretion is advised. Listen to this series carefully and let us know if anything you hear in this show jogs a memory of yours. And if you've got a tip, you can call us at 415-570-9299. The San Francisco Police Department held a press conference in February of It was an update on the Doodler case from Commander Greg MacEachern.
[01:29]
Dan Cunningham
We know that in the 1970s this was gripping the gay community in San Francisco, and so Inspector Cunningham reopened all the cases that were involved at that time to see if we could identify who that is so that we could get closure for those victims and hopefully make an arrest in those cases.
[01:48]
Kevin Fagan
We played some of this press conference at the beginning of this podcast. I was there, but it happened months before I began working on this series in earnest. The conference was to announce the reactivation of the Doodler Cold Case.
[02:01]
Dan Cunningham
We have submitted DNA evidence in this case from a couple of the homicides and we are still waiting for results of those DNA tests, but we do have DNA evidence that was submitted and is being tested.
[02:14]
Kevin Fagan
They're also giving an incentive for people to come forward if they have information that could help the SFPD.
[02:20]
Dan Cunningham
We are now offering a $100,000 reward for anyone that can identify the suspect in the assaults from the caricature picture or the sketch that had been drawn back in 1975.
[02:34]
Kevin Fagan
Along with that large reward, they released an age progressed sketch of the suspect.
[02:39]
Dan Cunningham
If you look at that crime bulletin that is posted, there is an enhanced picture of what the suspect would look like today.
[02:48]
Kevin Fagan
It resembles the young man with the navy watch cap from the original, but he's decades older, with a bald head, thick lines across his cheeks and brow, and the same blank expression.
[02:59]
Dan Cunningham
There was five victims of homicides that we believe this individual is responsible for, maybe more. We're here today in the hopes that you as the media will put out into the public that these are still open cases and families that don't have closure in the hopes that someone will provide us some information.
[03:18]
Kevin Fagan
When I attended this press conference two years ago, I didn't know nearly as much as I know today about the person SFPD's focused on. But now I know a lot. He's the person that Rottea Guilford and Earl Sanders original investigation pointed towards. My investigation with Mike points in the same direction to the same guy, the patient identified by Dr. Priest.
[03:41]
Dan Cunningham
And we're hoping that someone in the public may be able to provide information as to who the psychiatrist is with the last name of Priest and help us identify him so that we can interview him for information that may assist us in ultimately leading to the arrest of this suspect.
[03:59]
Kevin Fagan
This press conference happened because SFPD believes that suspect is still alive, living in the East Bay. So after all these years and with all these details, I wondered why haven't police been able to bring this guy in? Actually, they have. I'm Kevin Fagan from the San Francisco Chronicle. Ugly Duckling films and Neon Hum Media. This is the untold story of the Doodler. The Doodler case, like all cold cases, gets harder to solve the more time passes. The original inspectors are dead. Rote Guilford died in 1998 and Earl Sanders died in January of this year. Most potential witnesses are dead or uncooperative. Documentation is thin. But there is hope this case has an individual to focus on. Dr. Priest patient. Cold case investigator Dan Cunningham can't even call this guy a suspect yet. For now, this guy is a person of interest or POI for short.
[05:08]
Dan Cunningham
So what I would say about him is basically the same that retail Guilford said back in 1977 that he was an individual that was seeking psychiatric help. He had some issues with his sexuality. He had been going out with a three female at some point. He was, he was living in the East Bay back at that time period. I believe that the same person that he's referring to is the person that I'm still looking at.
[05:38]
Kevin Fagan
Cunningham isn't just reading from the case file for this information. He knows this guy is still alive because he met him.
[05:45]
Dan Cunningham
I've interviewed him, gotten his DNA, was willing to talk somewhat good conversation with them. And I believe that based on the information he told me in the interview, that this is the same person that they looked at as the suspect back in 1977.
[06:04]
Kevin Fagan
Cunningham met him in the East Bay, where he lives now. And Dan says their conversation confirmed details that made this guy a suspect in the 1970s.
[06:13]
Dan Cunningham
He wasn't an emotional person. He wasn't really upset, denied everything. However, at the same time, he was pretty calm about it, for the most part.
[06:26]
Kevin Fagan
Is he living as a gay man today?
[06:29]
Dan Cunningham
Yes.
[06:32]
Kevin Fagan
This interview happened in 2018, before they went public with the case's reactivation. Cunningham told me they compared the person of interest voice with the voice on that original emergency dispatch call we played for you on our very first episode.
[06:48]
Narrator/Advertiser
A dead person on the beach right.
[06:53]
Mike Taylor
Across from U. Louis.
[06:55]
Kevin Fagan
He said that a match couldn't conclusively be ruled out, but DNA is a big focus after all. That's what nailed the Golden State Killer after so many years. Cunningham got a sample of the person of interest DNA during their interview, but how he waffled that person of interest gave his DNA willingly was my understanding. Right. Like a swab or something.
[07:21]
Dan Cunningham
So he was. Yeah, he was. As far as actually performing the task, he didn't. You know, he's been. I mean, apparently he's been arrested. He has been arrested throughout the years for different types of incidents. Nothing violent. And he has had his DNA uploaded. His DNA has already been uploaded.
[07:40]
Kevin Fagan
It sounds like this fresh sample of DNA. He didn't know you got it. Is that right?
[07:46]
Dan Cunningham
Yeah, no, he knows we got it. We took it from him.
[07:49]
Kevin Fagan
Okay. All right.
[07:50]
Dan Cunningham
He provided it for us during an interview.
[07:52]
Kevin Fagan
Cunningham is being careful as usual, but I'm not sure why he's being cagey about this. Nevertheless, Cunningham has already sent a few samples of the DNA to a lab for testing. It's being compared with the bits of evidence they have from the Doodler murder scenes. Mostly blood from the victim's clothes.
[08:09]
Dan Cunningham
All of it that we could trace so far has only been that of the victim. Right, because it was pretty gory sights. So there's no secondary DNA as of yet.
[08:21]
Kevin Fagan
The hope is that as DNA technology advances, the police will be able to find other DNA in that blood traces from a small amount of the killer's blood or semen. But waiting for those advances sure isn't a quick way to put someone behind bars. Inspectors on the Zodiac case have been waiting decades for DNA technology to help them solve their case. So in 2018, when Cunningham brought the person of interest in but couldn't arrest him, the frustration just continued. The Doodler mystery is still so confounding that Cunningham leaves open the very slim possibility that the killer actually picked out his victims. At the beaches and parks, the cruising spots, not picked up with doodles in bars, that maybe all those tips and conclusions made back in the 1970s were off somehow were just bar myth based on creepy guys doing sketches. But that's nowhere approaching a conclusion, and it contradicts what investigators said back then. It seems to me that they got pretty close to catching the Doodler by following those theories.
[09:31]
Mike Taylor
What they have in this case could fit into a normal sized box, you know, like a liquor box or a wine box. As far as we know, they have not brought this to the district attorney's.
[09:41]
Kevin Fagan
Office, which means no charges have been filed with that office. And other than me and Dan Cunningham, I think Mike Taylor is the person who knows the most about the Doodler case. He's been on this thing with me since nearly the beginning. To get a sense of where we stand on actually closing this, Mike called up a retired prosecutor, Doug Munson.
[10:01]
Mike Taylor
What do we have here? What do we have as a, as a case, if anything is there?
[10:07]
Kevin Fagan
You got nothing. Okay. Sorry to disappoint you. Right.
[10:13]
Mike Taylor
You got nothing because the standard of.
[10:15]
Kevin Fagan
Proof is so high.
[10:16]
Mike Taylor
Yeah.
[10:17]
Kevin Fagan
It's beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty. Mike also called a former defense attorney, Richard Zitterin, and explained everything. The diplomat, doctor, priest, the person of interest. That's not going to get by a.
[10:29]
Mike Taylor
Preliminary hearing on probable cause, much less no trial.
[10:34]
Kevin Fagan
That's going to get knocked out of preliminary here.
[10:37]
Mike Taylor
Okay.
[10:38]
Kevin Fagan
This is the same wall that Inspectors Rotay Gilford and Earl Sanders ran up against in 1976. But I've got reason to keep working on this. Three reasons, actually. Three potential breaks in the case. This episode is brought to you by FX's alien Earth, the official podcast. Each week, host Adam Rodger joined by guests including the show's creator, cast and crew. In this exclusive companion podcast, they will explore story elements, deep dive into character motivations and offer an episode by episode behind the scenes breakdown of each terrifying chapter in this new series. Search FX's alien Earth. Wherever you listen to podcasts.
[11:27]
Narrator/Advertiser
This episode.
[11:28]
Kevin Fagan
Is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't.
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Kevin Fagan
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Kevin Fagan
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[11:51]
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[11:53]
Kevin Fagan
Greenlight.Com Spotify greenlight.com Spotify There are three new developments on the doodler hunt that I want to tell you about. The first has to do with Dr. Priest, the psychiatrist who claims his patient confessed back in 1975. Just to refresh you, my hunch is that this shrink called the cops in 1975, pointed them toward the patient and said, leave me out of it. And patient doctor privilege means anything from their session likely can't be used in court. But if we could find this Dr. Priest all these years later, he might open up to us. Mike and I have been looking for Dr. Priest for months now. Frankly, I've been baffled by the lack of documents on this guy. Remember, we sent a public records request to Highland hospital where he likely worked. Here's an update. It was rejected because Highland hospital says they don't have personnel records from that far back. Earl and Rotea's notes make no mention of Dr. Priest's full name. And so we've had nothing but his last name to go on.
[13:03]
Mike Taylor
I got a list of about 100 psychiatrists who practiced in this part of the world in 1975 and just started calling them one by one. Well, I called the ones that were alive, and about half of them were dead. And when I got to about psychiatrist number 20 and each one, I asked, did you know a doctor priest? And this guy said, you mean Howard Priest? And I said, could be. And he said, how do you spell it? And I said, P R I E S T, like someone in a church. And he said, no, the guy I knew was spelled P R E E.
[13:39]
Kevin Fagan
C E. This could be the shrink, the one Dan has been looking for for three years.
[13:46]
Mike Taylor
So if you take Dr. Howard Preece, P R E E C E, and Google him and then do some research and make calls, et cetera, you find out that he was a psychiatrist in private practice here. And according to his first wife and his daughter, he did do gigs at.
[14:06]
Kevin Fagan
Highland Priests, not priest. I could easily see how Earl or Rattea could misunderstand priest for priest over the phone. Hell, you can hardly tell the difference the way I just said it.
[14:18]
Mike Taylor
So I'm about 80 to 85% sure that this is the guy.
[14:23]
Kevin Fagan
Obviously, I wanted to talk to Preece immediately, But like with most people involved.
[14:28]
Mike Taylor
In this case, well, he died at 79. He would have been, what, 95 now?
[14:34]
Kevin Fagan
Or so was it? When did he die?
[14:36]
Mike Taylor
2005. July of 2005. The day after his 79th birthday. He was cremated and they scattered his ashes at sea. He was a big sailor.
[14:48]
Kevin Fagan
Just because he's dead doesn't mean that this angle is kaput. The fact that we might have the right name for the psychiatrist opens a lot of doors. Mike called Dr. Preece's daughter Holly.
[14:59]
Mike Taylor
What do you think the likelihood is that he might be the person who did these consults?
[15:04]
Narrator/Advertiser
Well, my mother feels that it's, you know, not very likely it was him, but considering his interest and something other than, you know, housewife problems in the suburbs, you know, he was looking for something different.
[15:25]
Kevin Fagan
Dr. Howard Preece was interested in a challenge.
[15:28]
Narrator/Advertiser
He always seemed to have an interest in, you know, troublemakers, I guess, and wanting to figure them out.
[15:35]
Kevin Fagan
And that led him to start working with prisoners.
[15:38]
Narrator/Advertiser
But then he kind of joined up with the penal system and was seeing patients, level four patients up and down the state.
[15:47]
Kevin Fagan
By level four patients, she means inmates who are kept in a high security prison. Often they're people who have committed violent crimes.
[15:55]
Narrator/Advertiser
So, you know, with his interest in that, just seems very likely that he might be, you know, somebody who would have had a patient like this guy. Your person of interest.
[16:08]
Kevin Fagan
Holly Preece has a folder of personal letters that her father left behind. Mike's gotten a hold of those, and there's a chance the family might have more. Mike also asked Holly about the secretary who called the police for Dr. Preece. She's definitely someone we'd want to get in touch with.
[16:23]
Mike Taylor
I asked about the secretary, and apparently he didn't have a secretary. And like a lot of guys who did freelance work, he. He just. Whatever secretary was there at Highland that day was his secretary. So it might have been just some bureaucratic foul ups. You know, he asked his secretary to call and says, when you get them, if you get a cop on the line, let me talk to him. So she calls and she doesn't get anybody, or she leaves a voicemail and someone calls her back when the shrink is left to go back to his house. All these kinds of mundane things that can happen.
[17:02]
Kevin Fagan
Finding that secretary will be a little easier with Dr. Howard Preece's name attached. But I was hoping Holly would know her name then.
[17:09]
Mike Taylor
The other possibility is that one of the other kids may remember dinner conversation where because she said her father used to tell interesting stories at the dinner table about patients without giving names and details, stuff.
[17:26]
Kevin Fagan
Mike and I are still working on getting in touch with more of Dr. Howard Preece's relatives and colleagues. With any luck, they might remember some details, but the list of people still around from back then is getting shorter. And shorter. So time is of the essence. Here's the second new development in the Doodler case. I've learned from Dan Cunningham that shortly after the person of interest sat down with Rotay Gilford in 1976, he left town and took a trip around the U.S. cunningham thinks that trip could reveal new evidence that would implicate the person of interest.
[18:02]
Dan Cunningham
So there's been some incidents of similar type of homicides that occurred throughout the United States. And some of them are, you know, I'm basing this on, you know, some of these locations. I don't want to say specifically what they are, but kind of based around general area of where this individual said that he took a little tour of the United States.
[18:24]
Kevin Fagan
This is after he got interviewed by Raya and.
[18:27]
Dan Cunningham
And right this after hearing he took a suspect. Yeah, he took off at some point and traveled kind of a strange way, you know, through the south and I think up the east coast and came back at the Midwest or something like that. But there's. There's several different incidents that we're interested in looking at.
[18:47]
Kevin Fagan
Cunningham is communicating with other police departments through an FBI tool called the Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, or vicap. He shared details about the circumstances of the Doodler crimes to see if police in other cities had cases that matched his VICAP message. Came back with 15 hits from Police departments in the south, the east and the Midwest. That means there are 15 cases that could be connected with the travels of the person of interest back in 1976.
[19:15]
Dan Cunningham
We have to see what they have, what they don't have. If there's any other potential evidence we could review or determine and see if we can get a hold of that. And, you know, it might come back to this individual we. Whose DNA we did take.
[19:31]
Kevin Fagan
Yeah.
[19:32]
Dan Cunningham
From looking at him as a possible in these serious murders in San Francisco.
[19:38]
Kevin Fagan
Those vicap cases might be a stretch, but they make some sense. Around the time Earl and Rotea talked to the person of interest, the Doodler murders in San Francisco stopped. But what if he didn't stop killing? What if the Doodler continued his killing spree somewhere else? It's possible that the case of this San Francisco serial killer is actually much larger. And if the case is larger, the pool of available evidence is too. There might be fingerprints or DNA evidence in another state that match the person of interest. And I gotta tell you, we're getting good tips from all over California. And even outside, there's a set of eerily similar crimes in Louisiana that we're looking into. So that's two new developments. Dr. Priest is likely Dr. Howard Priest. And there's a potential wealth of new evidence that may come to us from outside San Francisco. That leaves one more big break. Cunningham and I are out at Land's End, around where Harold Goldberg's body was found by a golf course. Goldberg was the fifth and final confirmed victim. Cunningham's cold case partner, Dan dedette, is with us. He's got a salt and pepper mustache, slick back hair and an easy smile. And then you don't know what's in the mind of the investigator because, you know, there's a of lot of information that's in people's heads regarding any specific event. It all doesn't make it on paper, though. Yeah, you know, so. So it's a challenge. This is the site of a murder we haven't talked about yet. One that Mike and I think might be the work of the doodler. Cunningham is coming around to the idea too.
[21:20]
Dan Dedette
He was found at 9:30, I believe, in the morning on a Sunday morning, moaning on a service road not far from a service road right behind this monument up here.
[21:30]
Kevin Fagan
His name was Warren Andrews. Attacked in April 1975. He was 52 years old. When a passerby found him, he was alive.
[21:39]
Dan Dedette
He had been attacked with apparently what they thought it was a large rock to the head. Blood trauma to his head.
[21:51]
Kevin Fagan
After nearly two months in a coma, he died. He was never able to describe his attacker. Mike got in touch with Andrew's sister, Nancy. She told us that he served in the Navy during World War II. After that he was a merchant marine like Harold Goldberg. And in the latter years of his life, he was a lawyer out of Tacoma, Washington. But he was a very private person. He kept his personal life close to the version. Now, since Warren Andrews wasn't stabbed, Cunningham initially ruled him out as a doodler victim. But Nancy thinks that Warren was probably gay. And for Dan, that changes things.
[22:32]
Dan Dedette
He's possibly a gay man. This area up here is. Some of these spots close to the ocean, are notorious for rendezvous. And I'm not saying that's what happened. We don't know for sure, but it's kind of consistent with that.
[22:50]
Kevin Fagan
The Andrews murder happened around the same time as the Goldberg murder, too.
[22:55]
Dan Dedette
We see a pattern, you know, in the first five where there's injuries. The upper torso, the front and the back. Knife wounds. This individual, blunt trauma to the head.
[23:05]
Kevin Fagan
Well, this was. Those other ones were rage killings. This one, the guy took a tree branch to him and a rock.
[23:11]
Dan Cunningham
Right.
[23:11]
Kevin Fagan
It sounds like he was pretty Damn dedicated, angry.
[23:17]
Dan Dedette
So it's possible. You got to think to yourself, well, you know what? This time period, these other ones were going on very close in proximity in time to the other ones. It's very possible. Maybe he had a knife and for whatever reason, he dropped it, or there's a struggle, and maybe somebody interfered with it or he hurt somebody when he was about to take his knife and. And fled. We don't know. But just because the fact of the location, the time period, some of the, you know, the victimology, makes me think that it might be connected. And I'm not going to say it is for sure, but I'd be a fool to say that it wasn't.
[23:52]
Kevin Fagan
Standing at the spot where Andrews lay bleeding, I can see how the knife could have gone flying. Just a few steps away is a steep incline to a cliff. And if the doodler was fighting this man, he. He could easily have lost his footing on that slope as they tussled, losing the knife in the process. The nearest available replacement weapons. A rock, a branch. The hope with the Warren Andrews case is that there may be DNA on one of the three key pieces of evidence found at the scene. And with any luck, that DNA will match someone in the police database, perhaps the person of interest. Mike and I looked at the medical examiner's report and the incident report on it, there were. There was a rock, a tree branch, and a handkerchief. And I thought, well, you know, the rock and the tree branch, just. Just assuming. It would probably just have the victim's blood on it, like the, you know, the clothing from the other scenes. But a handkerchief. Maybe the guy wiped himself and the attacker wiped himself and threw it down on the. Is it. What's the chances of finding that stuff? Cunningham's partner, Detective Dan Dudette, tried to explain. So there's a section within property from where old property may have been booked back in the day that never made it into our digitized system because they couldn't input it. Dadette says he and Cunningham are still looking for the evidence. SFPD changed its evidence filing system since the 70s, so some old cases are labeled with outdated filing numbers. There's been an effort to give old cases new numbers, but that hasn't happened with every case yet. If there isn't documentation within the case file, that. That's been done, and it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. What happened to the property? There must be thousands of cases in that warehouse over the. If you. If you look back at 60 years.
[25:37]
Dan Dedette
70 years in the Basement of the property in the basement down the hall of justice, as well as 606.
[25:43]
Kevin Fagan
Oh, man. Raiders of the Lost Ark. That image just keeps coming in. It's, it's. That sounds massive. It's gonna be a challenge to find that evidence. But it's not impossible. It's just a matter of time. The payoff could be huge. At the very least, it could help police solve the Warren Andrews case, whether it has anything to do with the Doodler or not. In particular, that handkerchief. I just can't shake the thought that something like that has a better chance than most things in this case of having the DNA, maybe blood splotches of whoever killed Andrews. That would be a triumph some 46 years later. In fact, today's episode marks the day Warren Andrews was attacked. And with any luck, that DNA will give them evidence enough to bring charges against the Doodler. Altogether, we're looking at three avenues for new evidence to surface. There's the documents and memories of Dr. Howard Preecef. The 15 cases outside San Francisco that seem to match the person of interest travels. And lastly, the Warren Andrews murder. A potential sixth Doodler victim for a case that's lain dormant for nearly half a century. That's three rays of hope. Big rays of hope. You say you'll never join the Navy, never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit or break the sound barrier. The Navy sounds crazy. Saying never actually is. Learn why@navy.com America's Navy forged by the sea Support for this podcast and the following message comes from America's Navy. The Navy offers new graduates hands on training and experience in careers like computer science, aviation and medicine. Plus education and sign on bonuses. Parents help your grads start their career today@navy.com Ron Huberman was close to this investigation. He'd been following the case for years by the time he became an investigator for the District attorney. And to see it all fall apart was hard.
[27:56]
Dan Cunningham
If SFPD had ever made an arrest, that case would have brought to me redemption of why I went into, why I went through all of the academy, all the stuff, why I was there. Because that case was the only case that I knew of where people that were in the same bars that I went to and you know, people that entertained in one of the bars and people who knew, I knew them by sight. These were, they weren't friends, but they were family. So to me that was a huge thing.
[28:27]
Kevin Fagan
The issues the Doodler case brought up in the 70s aren't entirely in the rear view. The SFPD's interactions with the LGBTQ community are still complicated.
[28:37]
Narrator/Advertiser
When I came in in 1995, life wasn't so different as far as people having the fear of being out.
[28:45]
Kevin Fagan
Teresa Ewins is a commander and the highest ranking LGBTQ officer in the San Francisco Police Department, a prime example of progress.
[28:53]
Narrator/Advertiser
May I remember I worked in the Castro for a really long time, and I was the LGBT liaison there. And really, people still have these fears of being in a police report. You know, how do we stop that? I think we've progressed as a community. But still, when you talk about crimes like this, many people don't report.
[29:12]
Kevin Fagan
It's easy to look back on an old case like the Doodler and think it's something that happened in a less civilized time, when expressing your queerness was an act of resistance. But Josh Stickney from Equality California says it's not something we can just chalk up to past prejudice.
[29:27]
Dan Cunningham
Whether it's 2021 or the 1970s, when society villainizes and demonizes and restricts the visibility and education of a marginalized people, a marginalized group, of course you're going to have one of the results of that be hate crimes.
[29:48]
Kevin Fagan
That's what these Doodler murders were, hate crimes. Even if the law didn't categorize them that way back then. And queer people today are still being victimized for expressing themselves openly throughout.
[30:02]
Dan Cunningham
Again, the last 30, 40, 50 years. We need to be cognizant that incidences of violence and hate were still happening whether they were reported or not. You see hate crimes happening today on the most marginalized within the LGBTQ community, which are, you know, transgender people of color, specifically trans women of color.
[30:24]
Kevin Fagan
Look at the way trans people are treated today. They've become the target of restrictive legislation in states all over the US Rules about which bathroom kids can use, what sports they can play, and whether doctors are allowed to provide them the care they want and need. But this discrimination is about more than any single law. Trans people face hate on and offline. As long as groups are otherized and marginalized, the ground will be fertile for violent people to strike, for killers like the Doodler to take advantage of the hate that's already buried so many and maybe get away with it, too. You probably remember Jay Stevens, the drag queen murdered by the Doodler on June 25, 1974. Jay was the second confirmed Doodler victim. Recently, I called Jay's sister Melissa at her home in Sebastopol.
[31:22]
Narrator/Advertiser
Well, it'd be great to have some answers, to have some closure, number one, because that's. That's certainly not there. And to have answers would be just divine. But, you know, I don't know if we're going to get them, if this guy's even alive, if he's even the guy that did it, you know, is. Is, I think, probably our biggest question.
[31:45]
Kevin Fagan
I knew when I called her that I didn't have the news she was hoping for. The doodler still out there. That hasn't changed.
[31:52]
Narrator/Advertiser
You know, if I were to come face to face with him, I might, like, hit him and scratch him and pull his hair.
[31:59]
Kevin Fagan
Losing her older brother Jay could have hung like a dark cloud over her for the past 47 years, but she somehow managed to hold on to optimism.
[32:07]
Narrator/Advertiser
I've learned enough in my life, like, to just move on and move on and do the best we can with every day. I don't want to sound too bad, but that's the truth, you know, do the best with every day.
[32:24]
Kevin Fagan
What would you ask this guy if. If Cunningham is able to actually arrest a suspect and get him convicted, what.
[32:30]
Narrator/Advertiser
Was it like to kill my brother? That's what I'd ask him. Because it sure rained havoc on our lives, you know, and was it that satisfying? And why? Why?
[32:45]
Kevin Fagan
Melissa turned to look out her living room window.
[32:49]
Narrator/Advertiser
Oh, my gosh. There's the deer. There's Tom. Come look real quick. Hurry. Come here. There's a deer just standing right outside front living room window. Just standing there looking at me.
[33:02]
Kevin Fagan
Maybe I'm just being sappy, but I can't help but think of Jay's doe eyes staring into Melissa's.
[33:08]
Narrator/Advertiser
He's just standing there watching me.
[33:11]
Kevin Fagan
No kidding.
[33:12]
Narrator/Advertiser
Yeah.
[33:13]
Kevin Fagan
I think of all the memories Melissa shared with me, and I feel profoundly honored that I get to hold a piece of Jay in my mind, too. All of them. Gerald, Klaus, Fred, Harold, Warren. I've learned so much about them, and I still know so little. But they're with me, and they always will be. It's not my job to possess their memories, though. It's my job to shine a light on them and to pass their memory on to you. You who have stuck around and listened to their stories and maybe opened your heart to them and their families. Melissa and others close to these victims will always carry the bulk of that burden. But I hope it's some consolation that now we all carry a small portion of that weight.
[34:09]
Mike Taylor
Hello?
[34:09]
Kevin Fagan
Hey, Mike, it's Kevin.
[34:11]
Mike Taylor
Hi.
[34:12]
Kevin Fagan
Hey.
[34:12]
Mike Taylor
Are we on tape? Are we recording? This is what I always say.
[34:16]
Kevin Fagan
You do, and we are. Mike Taylor and I have been on this case together for a Year now, scraping, digging, snuffling and dredging for details all around the world. This reminds me of when I used to do stories on the 1906 earthquake survivors. You know, for the first several years, there were many years there where there'd be people who remembered bricks falling on the, you know, on the ground and running screaming from buildings. Gradually, year after year after year. Now there's no one left that's going to happen in this case.
[34:47]
Mike Taylor
And the other thing is, this is a, this is a criminal case. It's a murder case. Murder has the statute of limitations. So, you know, you somebody who was murdered 45 years ago, if the killer has not been caught, that person is still open to being charged, tried, convicted, acquitted, whatever. And yeah, the question is how realistically, how much evidence do they have?
[35:17]
Kevin Fagan
If this were any other year, a year without a hobbling pandemic, we would have spent more hours and days traveling to Montreal, Sweden, Kaiser Slat in Germany, and huddling in library archives around the world. It's amazing what we've been able to find since the COVID lockdown began. We haven't come as far as I would have liked, which is to say the doodler hasn't been caught, but we've uncovered details that have been locked away for decades. That's no small thing. Now this investigation has to expand.
[35:48]
Mike Taylor
A lot of this has to do, I think, with, with the public's involvement. I mean, one always hopes in a story like this where you, you have a mystery out there that's still a mystery. Someone out in the public has seen something.
[36:03]
Kevin Fagan
It's just a neighborhood or a son or a daughter or an uncle. Someone who heard something after the guy had two beers in him and got loose lips, all that. Or that secretary of Dr. Priest, you know, who may not have been a secretary at all. But just hoping that if word of this whole thing ripples out further, someone could pick up the phone and unlock everything for us, or at least unlock a big part of it. When I was out at the site of Warren Andrews murder with Dan Cunningham and Dan Dedette, I wanted to get a sense of how close we are, how much work is there to do before we can put this story to rest.
[36:48]
Dan Dedette
So again, like I said, it was a football game. And I think when we started the ball's on the one or two yard line. I think we got it out to midfield. So it still needs. Sometimes that's the hardest is getting the last 50 yards, is pushing it forward.
[37:03]
Kevin Fagan
Yeah.
[37:03]
Dan Dedette
So that's, I think, where we are we need some more information, some more documentation, some more evidence, some more witnesses.
[37:12]
Kevin Fagan
Cunningham's optimism is contagious. At least I can trust that he's giving it his all. There's so many ways that this thing could still break. There are the new revelations about Dr. Howard Preece. Cunningham tells me he thinks we're on the right track there. Also the Warren Andrews evidence and the 15 cases around the US that could provide crucial DNA evidence. And then there's you. Throughout this series, we've been asking you to send us tips, and many of you have sent us great leads. Like I said before, we're looking into crimes that resemble the Doodler's MO Stretching from around California all the way to Louisiana. We've also gotten calls on sightings in the East Bay, folks who may fit the description of the Doodler. Our work continues on all this and we'll be updating this podcast feed if anything develops. So keep the tips coming. We're still hoping to talk to the diplomat, the actor, the secretary at Highland Hospital, and of course, the Doodler himself. You can call our tip line at 415-570-9299 and our email is thedoodlerlinemail.com.
[38:29]
Mike Taylor
Who knows? All it takes is one phone call.
[38:32]
Kevin Fagan
I mean, keeping your mouth shut can be pretty hard for decade after decade after decade. You gotta think that there's a good chance that he spilled to someone. Well, let's hope that call comes in.
[38:44]
Mike Taylor
Yep. Indeed.
[38:46]
Kevin Fagan
All right. Hey, I'll talk to you later, right?
[38:49]
Mike Taylor
Okay.
[38:50]
Kevin Fagan
Okay, bye.
[38:51]
Mike Taylor
Okay, bye.
[38:55]
Narrator/Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music and free, with fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.
[39:24]
Kevin Fagan
The Doodler is created by the San Francisco Chronicle and Ugly Duckling Films and produced in association with Neon Hum Media and Sony Music Entertainment. It's reported by Me, the host, Kevin Fagan and Mike Taylor. Produced and written by Tanner Robbins. Natalie Wren is our co producer and Odelia Rubin our supervising producer. Associate producers are Chloe Chobel and Ryan J.
[39:48]
Mike Taylor
Brown.
[39:50]
Kevin Fagan
Our sound designer and composer is Hansdale Suit. Our editor is Nick White and our executive editor is Catherine St. Louis. Editorial support from King Kaufman and Tim O' Rourke for the San Francisco Chronicle. Executive producers are Sophia Gibber and Lena Bousager for Ugly Duckling Films and Jonathan Hirsch for Neon Hum Media. Want to live better?
[40:18]
Mike Taylor
We got a lot of work to do.
[40:20]
Kevin Fagan
Join Chris Hemsworth in National Geographic's new Disney plus original series, Limitless Live Better Now. I'm diving head first into cutting edge.
[40:28]
Mike Taylor
Science to uncover three powerful secrets to.
[40:31]
Kevin Fagan
Living better right now.
[40:33]
Mike Taylor
The growth that occurs through any challenging.
[40:36]
Kevin Fagan
Experience is really what we see. Chris Hemsworth stars in Limitless Live Better Now. Now streaming on Disney plus and Hulu. It's Showtime.

Summary5 min read

The Doodler | Episode 8: Rays of Hope

Podcast: The Binge Crimes: The Doodler
Host: Kevin Fagan, San Francisco Chronicle
Date: August 19, 2025

Episode Overview

This pivotal episode, "Rays of Hope," focuses on emerging developments in the nearly 50-year-old Doodler serial killer case in San Francisco. Host Kevin Fagan, with collaborator Mike Taylor and key cold case detectives, explores three promising leads—a new psychiatrist identity, possible related crimes outside California, and overlooked physical evidence in a potential sixth victim's case. The episode blends investigative updates with poignant reflection on loss, queer history, hope, and the enduring urgency for justice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Reactivation & Police Efforts

Recent Press Conference (01:29)
SFPD Commander Greg MacEachern and Cold Case Investigator Dan Cunningham announce the reopening of the Doodler case, hope that fresh publicity may yield new leads, and offer a $100,000 reward for information identifying the suspect.
- DNA Evidence: DNA has been submitted from several homicides; results are pending.
- Age-progressed Sketch: An updated image of the suspect is released for the public to scrutinize.
- "We are now offering a $100,000 reward for anyone that can identify the suspect in the assaults from the caricature picture or the sketch that had been drawn back in 1975." – Dan Cunningham (02:20)

2. The Central Person of Interest (POI)

The Psychiatrist Link (04:00–05:45)
The focus remains on a patient identified by "Dr. Priest" in the 1970s. Investigators, then and now, regard him as the strongest lead.
- Cunningham has personally interviewed the POI, confirming sexual identity and past psychiatric help.
- DNA Obtained: The POI cooperated and provided a sample; his DNA is already in law enforcement databases from prior, non-violent arrests.
- "I've interviewed him, gotten his DNA...based on the information he told me in the interview, this is the same person they looked at as the suspect back in 1977." – Dan Cunningham (05:44)

3. Roadblocks in Prosecution

Insufficient Evidence (10:01–10:36)
Legal experts consulted state the evidence is not strong enough for an arrest—case wouldn't survive a hearing or trial.
- "You got nothing because the standard of proof is so high...It's beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty." – Doug Munson, retired prosecutor (10:06)

4. The "Three Rays of Hope"

A. #1: Cracking the Psychiatrist’s Identity

Dr. Priest or Dr. Preece? (13:03–16:46)
New research identifies the psychiatrist as Dr. Howard Preece (not Priest), who worked at Highland Hospital and later in the prison system.
- Dr. Preece's family says he liked challenging cases; connection plausible.
- Though deceased, his personal papers and family memories are being pursued as potential sources for forgotten insights or names.
- "He always seemed to have an interest in troublemakers, I guess, and wanting to figure them out." – Holly Preece, Dr. Preece’s daughter (15:28)

B. #2: National Crime Linkages

VICAP and Traveler Murders (18:02–19:37)
After initial questioning in 1976, the POI traveled across the U.S.; similar crimes occurred along his route.
- SFPD shares crime scene information in VICAP, resulting in 15 possible matches across the South, East, and Midwest.
- "There's several different incidents that we're interested in looking at." – Dan Cunningham (18:46)

C. #3: The Warren Andrews Murder

Possible Sixth Doodler Victim (21:20–25:37)
Warren Andrews, attacked in April 1975, wasn’t stabbed (like the canonical victims) but suffered fatal head trauma. Investigators now revisit his case as possibly connected.
- Physical evidence includes a rock, a tree branch, and, notably, a handkerchief which may yield DNA.
- "Just because the fact of the location, the time period, some of the, you know, the victimology, makes me think that it might be connected." – Detective Dan Dedette (23:51)

Reflections on Police, Queer History, and Ongoing Injustice

SFPD and the LGBTQ Community

Commander Teresa Ewins offers perspective on longstanding fear and reluctance to report among queer San Franciscans.
- "Life wasn't so different as far as people having the fear of being out." – Teresa Ewins (28:37)

Hate Crimes Then and Now

Advocates stress that social conditions enabling hate-fueled crimes persist, especially against trans people.
- "As long as groups are otherized and marginalized, the ground will be fertile for violent people to strike, for killers like the Doodler to take advantage of the hate..." – Kevin Fagan (30:24)

Victim’s Families and the Weight of Loss

Interview with Melissa, sister of Jay Stevens (second Doodler victim):
- "To have some closure...would be just divine." (31:22)
- "What was it like to kill my brother? ...Because it sure rained havoc on our lives, you know, and was it that satisfying? And why?" (32:30)

The Human Side of Investigation

Fagan reflects on carrying the memories of the victims and the duty to make their stories known.
- "It's not my job to possess their memories, though. It's my job to shine a light on them and to pass their memory on to you." (33:12)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

On the challenge ahead:
"A lot of this has to do, I think, with, with the public’s involvement...someone out in the public has seen something." – Mike Taylor (35:47)
On progress in the case:
"It was a football game. And I think when we started the ball's on the one or two yard line. I think we got it out to midfield." – Dan Dedette (36:48)
On public responsibility:
“Who knows? All it takes is one phone call.” – Mike Taylor (38:29)

Key Timestamps of Important Segments

Press conference & SFPD updates: 01:29 – 03:20
Discussion of Person of Interest & DNA: 05:08 – 08:20
Legal barriers/Prosecutor perspectives: 10:01 – 10:36
Dr. Preece’s identity revealed: 13:03 – 16:46
VICAP national leads: 18:02 – 19:37
Warren Andrews case breakdown: 21:20 – 25:37
Police-LGBTQQ relations: 28:37 – 29:12
Melissa Stevens emotional interview: 31:22 – 33:12
Investigation reflection & call for tips: 35:47 – 38:32

Conclusion & Episode Takeaway

Three credible “rays of hope” now illuminate a path forward for a half-century old cold case: a clearer understanding of the psychiatrist’s identity and network, national links to potentially related murders, and the pursuit of long-lost physical evidence that may yet yield DNA. The episode ends on a bittersweet, resilient note—while justice has not been achieved, renewed investigation, public engagement, and advances in forensic technology mean there is still hope for answers and closure for victims’ families, the city’s queer community, and all who remember.

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Transcript155 lines

[00:02]
Narrator/Advertiser
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[00:23]
Kevin Fagan
Terms apply.
[00:24]
Narrator/Advertiser
Does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com BlueCruise for more details.
[00:32]
Kevin Fagan
The Binge you're listening to the Doodler a re Release series from the Binge Archives. If you're a subscriber to the Binge, you can listen to all episodes ad free right now. Visit the Binge channel on apple podcasts or getthebinge.com to browse all the great shows on the channel. The Binge Feed your true crime obsession this series contains depictions of violent assault and murder. Listener discretion is advised. Listen to this series carefully and let us know if anything you hear in this show jogs a memory of yours. And if you've got a tip, you can call us at 415-570-9299. The San Francisco Police Department held a press conference in February of It was an update on the Doodler case from Commander Greg MacEachern.
[01:29]
Dan Cunningham
We know that in the 1970s this was gripping the gay community in San Francisco, and so Inspector Cunningham reopened all the cases that were involved at that time to see if we could identify who that is so that we could get closure for those victims and hopefully make an arrest in those cases.
[01:48]
Kevin Fagan
We played some of this press conference at the beginning of this podcast. I was there, but it happened months before I began working on this series in earnest. The conference was to announce the reactivation of the Doodler Cold Case.
[02:01]
Dan Cunningham
We have submitted DNA evidence in this case from a couple of the homicides and we are still waiting for results of those DNA tests, but we do have DNA evidence that was submitted and is being tested.
[02:14]
Kevin Fagan
They're also giving an incentive for people to come forward if they have information that could help the SFPD.
[02:20]
Dan Cunningham
We are now offering a $100,000 reward for anyone that can identify the suspect in the assaults from the caricature picture or the sketch that had been drawn back in 1975.
[02:34]
Kevin Fagan
Along with that large reward, they released an age progressed sketch of the suspect.
[02:39]
Dan Cunningham
If you look at that crime bulletin that is posted, there is an enhanced picture of what the suspect would look like today.
[02:48]
Kevin Fagan
It resembles the young man with the navy watch cap from the original, but he's decades older, with a bald head, thick lines across his cheeks and brow, and the same blank expression.
[02:59]
Dan Cunningham
There was five victims of homicides that we believe this individual is responsible for, maybe more. We're here today in the hopes that you as the media will put out into the public that these are still open cases and families that don't have closure in the hopes that someone will provide us some information.
[03:18]
Kevin Fagan
When I attended this press conference two years ago, I didn't know nearly as much as I know today about the person SFPD's focused on. But now I know a lot. He's the person that Rottea Guilford and Earl Sanders original investigation pointed towards. My investigation with Mike points in the same direction to the same guy, the patient identified by Dr. Priest.
[03:41]
Dan Cunningham
And we're hoping that someone in the public may be able to provide information as to who the psychiatrist is with the last name of Priest and help us identify him so that we can interview him for information that may assist us in ultimately leading to the arrest of this suspect.
[03:59]
Kevin Fagan
This press conference happened because SFPD believes that suspect is still alive, living in the East Bay. So after all these years and with all these details, I wondered why haven't police been able to bring this guy in? Actually, they have. I'm Kevin Fagan from the San Francisco Chronicle. Ugly Duckling films and Neon Hum Media. This is the untold story of the Doodler. The Doodler case, like all cold cases, gets harder to solve the more time passes. The original inspectors are dead. Rote Guilford died in 1998 and Earl Sanders died in January of this year. Most potential witnesses are dead or uncooperative. Documentation is thin. But there is hope this case has an individual to focus on. Dr. Priest patient. Cold case investigator Dan Cunningham can't even call this guy a suspect yet. For now, this guy is a person of interest or POI for short.
[05:08]
Dan Cunningham
So what I would say about him is basically the same that retail Guilford said back in 1977 that he was an individual that was seeking psychiatric help. He had some issues with his sexuality. He had been going out with a three female at some point. He was, he was living in the East Bay back at that time period. I believe that the same person that he's referring to is the person that I'm still looking at.
[05:38]
Kevin Fagan
Cunningham isn't just reading from the case file for this information. He knows this guy is still alive because he met him.
[05:45]
Dan Cunningham
I've interviewed him, gotten his DNA, was willing to talk somewhat good conversation with them. And I believe that based on the information he told me in the interview, that this is the same person that they looked at as the suspect back in 1977.
[06:04]
Kevin Fagan
Cunningham met him in the East Bay, where he lives now. And Dan says their conversation confirmed details that made this guy a suspect in the 1970s.
[06:13]
Dan Cunningham
He wasn't an emotional person. He wasn't really upset, denied everything. However, at the same time, he was pretty calm about it, for the most part.
[06:26]
Kevin Fagan
Is he living as a gay man today?
[06:29]
Dan Cunningham
Yes.
[06:32]
Kevin Fagan
This interview happened in 2018, before they went public with the case's reactivation. Cunningham told me they compared the person of interest voice with the voice on that original emergency dispatch call we played for you on our very first episode.
[06:48]
Narrator/Advertiser
A dead person on the beach right.
[06:53]
Mike Taylor
Across from U. Louis.
[06:55]
Kevin Fagan
He said that a match couldn't conclusively be ruled out, but DNA is a big focus after all. That's what nailed the Golden State Killer after so many years. Cunningham got a sample of the person of interest DNA during their interview, but how he waffled that person of interest gave his DNA willingly was my understanding. Right. Like a swab or something.
[07:21]
Dan Cunningham
So he was. Yeah, he was. As far as actually performing the task, he didn't. You know, he's been. I mean, apparently he's been arrested. He has been arrested throughout the years for different types of incidents. Nothing violent. And he has had his DNA uploaded. His DNA has already been uploaded.
[07:40]
Kevin Fagan
It sounds like this fresh sample of DNA. He didn't know you got it. Is that right?
[07:46]
Dan Cunningham
Yeah, no, he knows we got it. We took it from him.
[07:49]
Kevin Fagan
Okay. All right.
[07:50]
Dan Cunningham
He provided it for us during an interview.
[07:52]
Kevin Fagan
Cunningham is being careful as usual, but I'm not sure why he's being cagey about this. Nevertheless, Cunningham has already sent a few samples of the DNA to a lab for testing. It's being compared with the bits of evidence they have from the Doodler murder scenes. Mostly blood from the victim's clothes.
[08:09]
Dan Cunningham
All of it that we could trace so far has only been that of the victim. Right, because it was pretty gory sights. So there's no secondary DNA as of yet.
[08:21]
Kevin Fagan
The hope is that as DNA technology advances, the police will be able to find other DNA in that blood traces from a small amount of the killer's blood or semen. But waiting for those advances sure isn't a quick way to put someone behind bars. Inspectors on the Zodiac case have been waiting decades for DNA technology to help them solve their case. So in 2018, when Cunningham brought the person of interest in but couldn't arrest him, the frustration just continued. The Doodler mystery is still so confounding that Cunningham leaves open the very slim possibility that the killer actually picked out his victims. At the beaches and parks, the cruising spots, not picked up with doodles in bars, that maybe all those tips and conclusions made back in the 1970s were off somehow were just bar myth based on creepy guys doing sketches. But that's nowhere approaching a conclusion, and it contradicts what investigators said back then. It seems to me that they got pretty close to catching the Doodler by following those theories.
[09:31]
Mike Taylor
What they have in this case could fit into a normal sized box, you know, like a liquor box or a wine box. As far as we know, they have not brought this to the district attorney's.
[09:41]
Kevin Fagan
Office, which means no charges have been filed with that office. And other than me and Dan Cunningham, I think Mike Taylor is the person who knows the most about the Doodler case. He's been on this thing with me since nearly the beginning. To get a sense of where we stand on actually closing this, Mike called up a retired prosecutor, Doug Munson.
[10:01]
Mike Taylor
What do we have here? What do we have as a, as a case, if anything is there?
[10:07]
Kevin Fagan
You got nothing. Okay. Sorry to disappoint you. Right.
[10:13]
Mike Taylor
You got nothing because the standard of.
[10:15]
Kevin Fagan
Proof is so high.
[10:16]
Mike Taylor
Yeah.
[10:17]
Kevin Fagan
It's beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty. Mike also called a former defense attorney, Richard Zitterin, and explained everything. The diplomat, doctor, priest, the person of interest. That's not going to get by a.
[10:29]
Mike Taylor
Preliminary hearing on probable cause, much less no trial.
[10:34]
Kevin Fagan
That's going to get knocked out of preliminary here.
[10:37]
Mike Taylor
Okay.
[10:38]
Kevin Fagan
This is the same wall that Inspectors Rotay Gilford and Earl Sanders ran up against in 1976. But I've got reason to keep working on this. Three reasons, actually. Three potential breaks in the case. This episode is brought to you by FX's alien Earth, the official podcast. Each week, host Adam Rodger joined by guests including the show's creator, cast and crew. In this exclusive companion podcast, they will explore story elements, deep dive into character motivations and offer an episode by episode behind the scenes breakdown of each terrifying chapter in this new series. Search FX's alien Earth. Wherever you listen to podcasts.
[11:27]
Narrator/Advertiser
This episode.
[11:28]
Kevin Fagan
Is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't.
[11:34]
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[11:43]
Kevin Fagan
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[11:48]
Kevin Fagan
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[11:51]
Narrator/Advertiser
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[11:53]
Kevin Fagan
Greenlight.Com Spotify greenlight.com Spotify There are three new developments on the doodler hunt that I want to tell you about. The first has to do with Dr. Priest, the psychiatrist who claims his patient confessed back in 1975. Just to refresh you, my hunch is that this shrink called the cops in 1975, pointed them toward the patient and said, leave me out of it. And patient doctor privilege means anything from their session likely can't be used in court. But if we could find this Dr. Priest all these years later, he might open up to us. Mike and I have been looking for Dr. Priest for months now. Frankly, I've been baffled by the lack of documents on this guy. Remember, we sent a public records request to Highland hospital where he likely worked. Here's an update. It was rejected because Highland hospital says they don't have personnel records from that far back. Earl and Rotea's notes make no mention of Dr. Priest's full name. And so we've had nothing but his last name to go on.
[13:03]
Mike Taylor
I got a list of about 100 psychiatrists who practiced in this part of the world in 1975 and just started calling them one by one. Well, I called the ones that were alive, and about half of them were dead. And when I got to about psychiatrist number 20 and each one, I asked, did you know a doctor priest? And this guy said, you mean Howard Priest? And I said, could be. And he said, how do you spell it? And I said, P R I E S T, like someone in a church. And he said, no, the guy I knew was spelled P R E E.
[13:39]
Kevin Fagan
C E. This could be the shrink, the one Dan has been looking for for three years.
[13:46]
Mike Taylor
So if you take Dr. Howard Preece, P R E E C E, and Google him and then do some research and make calls, et cetera, you find out that he was a psychiatrist in private practice here. And according to his first wife and his daughter, he did do gigs at.
[14:06]
Kevin Fagan
Highland Priests, not priest. I could easily see how Earl or Rattea could misunderstand priest for priest over the phone. Hell, you can hardly tell the difference the way I just said it.
[14:18]
Mike Taylor
So I'm about 80 to 85% sure that this is the guy.
[14:23]
Kevin Fagan
Obviously, I wanted to talk to Preece immediately, But like with most people involved.
[14:28]
Mike Taylor
In this case, well, he died at 79. He would have been, what, 95 now?
[14:34]
Kevin Fagan
Or so was it? When did he die?
[14:36]
Mike Taylor
2005. July of 2005. The day after his 79th birthday. He was cremated and they scattered his ashes at sea. He was a big sailor.
[14:48]
Kevin Fagan
Just because he's dead doesn't mean that this angle is kaput. The fact that we might have the right name for the psychiatrist opens a lot of doors. Mike called Dr. Preece's daughter Holly.
[14:59]
Mike Taylor
What do you think the likelihood is that he might be the person who did these consults?
[15:04]
Narrator/Advertiser
Well, my mother feels that it's, you know, not very likely it was him, but considering his interest and something other than, you know, housewife problems in the suburbs, you know, he was looking for something different.
[15:25]
Kevin Fagan
Dr. Howard Preece was interested in a challenge.
[15:28]
Narrator/Advertiser
He always seemed to have an interest in, you know, troublemakers, I guess, and wanting to figure them out.
[15:35]
Kevin Fagan
And that led him to start working with prisoners.
[15:38]
Narrator/Advertiser
But then he kind of joined up with the penal system and was seeing patients, level four patients up and down the state.
[15:47]
Kevin Fagan
By level four patients, she means inmates who are kept in a high security prison. Often they're people who have committed violent crimes.
[15:55]
Narrator/Advertiser
So, you know, with his interest in that, just seems very likely that he might be, you know, somebody who would have had a patient like this guy. Your person of interest.
[16:08]
Kevin Fagan
Holly Preece has a folder of personal letters that her father left behind. Mike's gotten a hold of those, and there's a chance the family might have more. Mike also asked Holly about the secretary who called the police for Dr. Preece. She's definitely someone we'd want to get in touch with.
[16:23]
Mike Taylor
I asked about the secretary, and apparently he didn't have a secretary. And like a lot of guys who did freelance work, he. He just. Whatever secretary was there at Highland that day was his secretary. So it might have been just some bureaucratic foul ups. You know, he asked his secretary to call and says, when you get them, if you get a cop on the line, let me talk to him. So she calls and she doesn't get anybody, or she leaves a voicemail and someone calls her back when the shrink is left to go back to his house. All these kinds of mundane things that can happen.
[17:02]
Kevin Fagan
Finding that secretary will be a little easier with Dr. Howard Preece's name attached. But I was hoping Holly would know her name then.
[17:09]
Mike Taylor
The other possibility is that one of the other kids may remember dinner conversation where because she said her father used to tell interesting stories at the dinner table about patients without giving names and details, stuff.
[17:26]
Kevin Fagan
Mike and I are still working on getting in touch with more of Dr. Howard Preece's relatives and colleagues. With any luck, they might remember some details, but the list of people still around from back then is getting shorter. And shorter. So time is of the essence. Here's the second new development in the Doodler case. I've learned from Dan Cunningham that shortly after the person of interest sat down with Rotay Gilford in 1976, he left town and took a trip around the U.S. cunningham thinks that trip could reveal new evidence that would implicate the person of interest.
[18:02]
Dan Cunningham
So there's been some incidents of similar type of homicides that occurred throughout the United States. And some of them are, you know, I'm basing this on, you know, some of these locations. I don't want to say specifically what they are, but kind of based around general area of where this individual said that he took a little tour of the United States.
[18:24]
Kevin Fagan
This is after he got interviewed by Raya and.
[18:27]
Dan Cunningham
And right this after hearing he took a suspect. Yeah, he took off at some point and traveled kind of a strange way, you know, through the south and I think up the east coast and came back at the Midwest or something like that. But there's. There's several different incidents that we're interested in looking at.
[18:47]
Kevin Fagan
Cunningham is communicating with other police departments through an FBI tool called the Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, or vicap. He shared details about the circumstances of the Doodler crimes to see if police in other cities had cases that matched his VICAP message. Came back with 15 hits from Police departments in the south, the east and the Midwest. That means there are 15 cases that could be connected with the travels of the person of interest back in 1976.
[19:15]
Dan Cunningham
We have to see what they have, what they don't have. If there's any other potential evidence we could review or determine and see if we can get a hold of that. And, you know, it might come back to this individual we. Whose DNA we did take.
[19:31]
Kevin Fagan
Yeah.
[19:32]
Dan Cunningham
From looking at him as a possible in these serious murders in San Francisco.
[19:38]
Kevin Fagan
Those vicap cases might be a stretch, but they make some sense. Around the time Earl and Rotea talked to the person of interest, the Doodler murders in San Francisco stopped. But what if he didn't stop killing? What if the Doodler continued his killing spree somewhere else? It's possible that the case of this San Francisco serial killer is actually much larger. And if the case is larger, the pool of available evidence is too. There might be fingerprints or DNA evidence in another state that match the person of interest. And I gotta tell you, we're getting good tips from all over California. And even outside, there's a set of eerily similar crimes in Louisiana that we're looking into. So that's two new developments. Dr. Priest is likely Dr. Howard Priest. And there's a potential wealth of new evidence that may come to us from outside San Francisco. That leaves one more big break. Cunningham and I are out at Land's End, around where Harold Goldberg's body was found by a golf course. Goldberg was the fifth and final confirmed victim. Cunningham's cold case partner, Dan dedette, is with us. He's got a salt and pepper mustache, slick back hair and an easy smile. And then you don't know what's in the mind of the investigator because, you know, there's a of lot of information that's in people's heads regarding any specific event. It all doesn't make it on paper, though. Yeah, you know, so. So it's a challenge. This is the site of a murder we haven't talked about yet. One that Mike and I think might be the work of the doodler. Cunningham is coming around to the idea too.
[21:20]
Dan Dedette
He was found at 9:30, I believe, in the morning on a Sunday morning, moaning on a service road not far from a service road right behind this monument up here.
[21:30]
Kevin Fagan
His name was Warren Andrews. Attacked in April 1975. He was 52 years old. When a passerby found him, he was alive.
[21:39]
Dan Dedette
He had been attacked with apparently what they thought it was a large rock to the head. Blood trauma to his head.
[21:51]
Kevin Fagan
After nearly two months in a coma, he died. He was never able to describe his attacker. Mike got in touch with Andrew's sister, Nancy. She told us that he served in the Navy during World War II. After that he was a merchant marine like Harold Goldberg. And in the latter years of his life, he was a lawyer out of Tacoma, Washington. But he was a very private person. He kept his personal life close to the version. Now, since Warren Andrews wasn't stabbed, Cunningham initially ruled him out as a doodler victim. But Nancy thinks that Warren was probably gay. And for Dan, that changes things.
[22:32]
Dan Dedette
He's possibly a gay man. This area up here is. Some of these spots close to the ocean, are notorious for rendezvous. And I'm not saying that's what happened. We don't know for sure, but it's kind of consistent with that.
[22:50]
Kevin Fagan
The Andrews murder happened around the same time as the Goldberg murder, too.
[22:55]
Dan Dedette
We see a pattern, you know, in the first five where there's injuries. The upper torso, the front and the back. Knife wounds. This individual, blunt trauma to the head.
[23:05]
Kevin Fagan
Well, this was. Those other ones were rage killings. This one, the guy took a tree branch to him and a rock.
[23:11]
Dan Cunningham
Right.
[23:11]
Kevin Fagan
It sounds like he was pretty Damn dedicated, angry.
[23:17]
Dan Dedette
So it's possible. You got to think to yourself, well, you know what? This time period, these other ones were going on very close in proximity in time to the other ones. It's very possible. Maybe he had a knife and for whatever reason, he dropped it, or there's a struggle, and maybe somebody interfered with it or he hurt somebody when he was about to take his knife and. And fled. We don't know. But just because the fact of the location, the time period, some of the, you know, the victimology, makes me think that it might be connected. And I'm not going to say it is for sure, but I'd be a fool to say that it wasn't.
[23:52]
Kevin Fagan
Standing at the spot where Andrews lay bleeding, I can see how the knife could have gone flying. Just a few steps away is a steep incline to a cliff. And if the doodler was fighting this man, he. He could easily have lost his footing on that slope as they tussled, losing the knife in the process. The nearest available replacement weapons. A rock, a branch. The hope with the Warren Andrews case is that there may be DNA on one of the three key pieces of evidence found at the scene. And with any luck, that DNA will match someone in the police database, perhaps the person of interest. Mike and I looked at the medical examiner's report and the incident report on it, there were. There was a rock, a tree branch, and a handkerchief. And I thought, well, you know, the rock and the tree branch, just. Just assuming. It would probably just have the victim's blood on it, like the, you know, the clothing from the other scenes. But a handkerchief. Maybe the guy wiped himself and the attacker wiped himself and threw it down on the. Is it. What's the chances of finding that stuff? Cunningham's partner, Detective Dan Dudette, tried to explain. So there's a section within property from where old property may have been booked back in the day that never made it into our digitized system because they couldn't input it. Dadette says he and Cunningham are still looking for the evidence. SFPD changed its evidence filing system since the 70s, so some old cases are labeled with outdated filing numbers. There's been an effort to give old cases new numbers, but that hasn't happened with every case yet. If there isn't documentation within the case file, that. That's been done, and it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. What happened to the property? There must be thousands of cases in that warehouse over the. If you. If you look back at 60 years.
[25:37]
Dan Dedette
70 years in the Basement of the property in the basement down the hall of justice, as well as 606.
[25:43]
Kevin Fagan
Oh, man. Raiders of the Lost Ark. That image just keeps coming in. It's, it's. That sounds massive. It's gonna be a challenge to find that evidence. But it's not impossible. It's just a matter of time. The payoff could be huge. At the very least, it could help police solve the Warren Andrews case, whether it has anything to do with the Doodler or not. In particular, that handkerchief. I just can't shake the thought that something like that has a better chance than most things in this case of having the DNA, maybe blood splotches of whoever killed Andrews. That would be a triumph some 46 years later. In fact, today's episode marks the day Warren Andrews was attacked. And with any luck, that DNA will give them evidence enough to bring charges against the Doodler. Altogether, we're looking at three avenues for new evidence to surface. There's the documents and memories of Dr. Howard Preecef. The 15 cases outside San Francisco that seem to match the person of interest travels. And lastly, the Warren Andrews murder. A potential sixth Doodler victim for a case that's lain dormant for nearly half a century. That's three rays of hope. Big rays of hope. You say you'll never join the Navy, never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit or break the sound barrier. The Navy sounds crazy. Saying never actually is. Learn why@navy.com America's Navy forged by the sea Support for this podcast and the following message comes from America's Navy. The Navy offers new graduates hands on training and experience in careers like computer science, aviation and medicine. Plus education and sign on bonuses. Parents help your grads start their career today@navy.com Ron Huberman was close to this investigation. He'd been following the case for years by the time he became an investigator for the District attorney. And to see it all fall apart was hard.
[27:56]
Dan Cunningham
If SFPD had ever made an arrest, that case would have brought to me redemption of why I went into, why I went through all of the academy, all the stuff, why I was there. Because that case was the only case that I knew of where people that were in the same bars that I went to and you know, people that entertained in one of the bars and people who knew, I knew them by sight. These were, they weren't friends, but they were family. So to me that was a huge thing.
[28:27]
Kevin Fagan
The issues the Doodler case brought up in the 70s aren't entirely in the rear view. The SFPD's interactions with the LGBTQ community are still complicated.
[28:37]
Narrator/Advertiser
When I came in in 1995, life wasn't so different as far as people having the fear of being out.
[28:45]
Kevin Fagan
Teresa Ewins is a commander and the highest ranking LGBTQ officer in the San Francisco Police Department, a prime example of progress.
[28:53]
Narrator/Advertiser
May I remember I worked in the Castro for a really long time, and I was the LGBT liaison there. And really, people still have these fears of being in a police report. You know, how do we stop that? I think we've progressed as a community. But still, when you talk about crimes like this, many people don't report.
[29:12]
Kevin Fagan
It's easy to look back on an old case like the Doodler and think it's something that happened in a less civilized time, when expressing your queerness was an act of resistance. But Josh Stickney from Equality California says it's not something we can just chalk up to past prejudice.
[29:27]
Dan Cunningham
Whether it's 2021 or the 1970s, when society villainizes and demonizes and restricts the visibility and education of a marginalized people, a marginalized group, of course you're going to have one of the results of that be hate crimes.
[29:48]
Kevin Fagan
That's what these Doodler murders were, hate crimes. Even if the law didn't categorize them that way back then. And queer people today are still being victimized for expressing themselves openly throughout.
[30:02]
Dan Cunningham
Again, the last 30, 40, 50 years. We need to be cognizant that incidences of violence and hate were still happening whether they were reported or not. You see hate crimes happening today on the most marginalized within the LGBTQ community, which are, you know, transgender people of color, specifically trans women of color.
[30:24]
Kevin Fagan
Look at the way trans people are treated today. They've become the target of restrictive legislation in states all over the US Rules about which bathroom kids can use, what sports they can play, and whether doctors are allowed to provide them the care they want and need. But this discrimination is about more than any single law. Trans people face hate on and offline. As long as groups are otherized and marginalized, the ground will be fertile for violent people to strike, for killers like the Doodler to take advantage of the hate that's already buried so many and maybe get away with it, too. You probably remember Jay Stevens, the drag queen murdered by the Doodler on June 25, 1974. Jay was the second confirmed Doodler victim. Recently, I called Jay's sister Melissa at her home in Sebastopol.
[31:22]
Narrator/Advertiser
Well, it'd be great to have some answers, to have some closure, number one, because that's. That's certainly not there. And to have answers would be just divine. But, you know, I don't know if we're going to get them, if this guy's even alive, if he's even the guy that did it, you know, is. Is, I think, probably our biggest question.
[31:45]
Kevin Fagan
I knew when I called her that I didn't have the news she was hoping for. The doodler still out there. That hasn't changed.
[31:52]
Narrator/Advertiser
You know, if I were to come face to face with him, I might, like, hit him and scratch him and pull his hair.
[31:59]
Kevin Fagan
Losing her older brother Jay could have hung like a dark cloud over her for the past 47 years, but she somehow managed to hold on to optimism.
[32:07]
Narrator/Advertiser
I've learned enough in my life, like, to just move on and move on and do the best we can with every day. I don't want to sound too bad, but that's the truth, you know, do the best with every day.
[32:24]
Kevin Fagan
What would you ask this guy if. If Cunningham is able to actually arrest a suspect and get him convicted, what.
[32:30]
Narrator/Advertiser
Was it like to kill my brother? That's what I'd ask him. Because it sure rained havoc on our lives, you know, and was it that satisfying? And why? Why?
[32:45]
Kevin Fagan
Melissa turned to look out her living room window.
[32:49]
Narrator/Advertiser
Oh, my gosh. There's the deer. There's Tom. Come look real quick. Hurry. Come here. There's a deer just standing right outside front living room window. Just standing there looking at me.
[33:02]
Kevin Fagan
Maybe I'm just being sappy, but I can't help but think of Jay's doe eyes staring into Melissa's.
[33:08]
Narrator/Advertiser
He's just standing there watching me.
[33:11]
Kevin Fagan
No kidding.
[33:12]
Narrator/Advertiser
Yeah.
[33:13]
Kevin Fagan
I think of all the memories Melissa shared with me, and I feel profoundly honored that I get to hold a piece of Jay in my mind, too. All of them. Gerald, Klaus, Fred, Harold, Warren. I've learned so much about them, and I still know so little. But they're with me, and they always will be. It's not my job to possess their memories, though. It's my job to shine a light on them and to pass their memory on to you. You who have stuck around and listened to their stories and maybe opened your heart to them and their families. Melissa and others close to these victims will always carry the bulk of that burden. But I hope it's some consolation that now we all carry a small portion of that weight.
[34:09]
Mike Taylor
Hello?
[34:09]
Kevin Fagan
Hey, Mike, it's Kevin.
[34:11]
Mike Taylor
Hi.
[34:12]
Kevin Fagan
Hey.
[34:12]
Mike Taylor
Are we on tape? Are we recording? This is what I always say.
[34:16]
Kevin Fagan
You do, and we are. Mike Taylor and I have been on this case together for a Year now, scraping, digging, snuffling and dredging for details all around the world. This reminds me of when I used to do stories on the 1906 earthquake survivors. You know, for the first several years, there were many years there where there'd be people who remembered bricks falling on the, you know, on the ground and running screaming from buildings. Gradually, year after year after year. Now there's no one left that's going to happen in this case.
[34:47]
Mike Taylor
And the other thing is, this is a, this is a criminal case. It's a murder case. Murder has the statute of limitations. So, you know, you somebody who was murdered 45 years ago, if the killer has not been caught, that person is still open to being charged, tried, convicted, acquitted, whatever. And yeah, the question is how realistically, how much evidence do they have?
[35:17]
Kevin Fagan
If this were any other year, a year without a hobbling pandemic, we would have spent more hours and days traveling to Montreal, Sweden, Kaiser Slat in Germany, and huddling in library archives around the world. It's amazing what we've been able to find since the COVID lockdown began. We haven't come as far as I would have liked, which is to say the doodler hasn't been caught, but we've uncovered details that have been locked away for decades. That's no small thing. Now this investigation has to expand.
[35:48]
Mike Taylor
A lot of this has to do, I think, with, with the public's involvement. I mean, one always hopes in a story like this where you, you have a mystery out there that's still a mystery. Someone out in the public has seen something.
[36:03]
Kevin Fagan
It's just a neighborhood or a son or a daughter or an uncle. Someone who heard something after the guy had two beers in him and got loose lips, all that. Or that secretary of Dr. Priest, you know, who may not have been a secretary at all. But just hoping that if word of this whole thing ripples out further, someone could pick up the phone and unlock everything for us, or at least unlock a big part of it. When I was out at the site of Warren Andrews murder with Dan Cunningham and Dan Dedette, I wanted to get a sense of how close we are, how much work is there to do before we can put this story to rest.
[36:48]
Dan Dedette
So again, like I said, it was a football game. And I think when we started the ball's on the one or two yard line. I think we got it out to midfield. So it still needs. Sometimes that's the hardest is getting the last 50 yards, is pushing it forward.
[37:03]
Kevin Fagan
Yeah.
[37:03]
Dan Dedette
So that's, I think, where we are we need some more information, some more documentation, some more evidence, some more witnesses.
[37:12]
Kevin Fagan
Cunningham's optimism is contagious. At least I can trust that he's giving it his all. There's so many ways that this thing could still break. There are the new revelations about Dr. Howard Preece. Cunningham tells me he thinks we're on the right track there. Also the Warren Andrews evidence and the 15 cases around the US that could provide crucial DNA evidence. And then there's you. Throughout this series, we've been asking you to send us tips, and many of you have sent us great leads. Like I said before, we're looking into crimes that resemble the Doodler's MO Stretching from around California all the way to Louisiana. We've also gotten calls on sightings in the East Bay, folks who may fit the description of the Doodler. Our work continues on all this and we'll be updating this podcast feed if anything develops. So keep the tips coming. We're still hoping to talk to the diplomat, the actor, the secretary at Highland Hospital, and of course, the Doodler himself. You can call our tip line at 415-570-9299 and our email is thedoodlerlinemail.com.
[38:29]
Mike Taylor
Who knows? All it takes is one phone call.
[38:32]
Kevin Fagan
I mean, keeping your mouth shut can be pretty hard for decade after decade after decade. You gotta think that there's a good chance that he spilled to someone. Well, let's hope that call comes in.
[38:44]
Mike Taylor
Yep. Indeed.
[38:46]
Kevin Fagan
All right. Hey, I'll talk to you later, right?
[38:49]
Mike Taylor
Okay.
[38:50]
Kevin Fagan
Okay, bye.
[38:51]
Mike Taylor
Okay, bye.
[38:55]
Narrator/Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music and free, with fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.
[39:24]
Kevin Fagan
The Doodler is created by the San Francisco Chronicle and Ugly Duckling Films and produced in association with Neon Hum Media and Sony Music Entertainment. It's reported by Me, the host, Kevin Fagan and Mike Taylor. Produced and written by Tanner Robbins. Natalie Wren is our co producer and Odelia Rubin our supervising producer. Associate producers are Chloe Chobel and Ryan J.
[39:48]
Mike Taylor
Brown.
[39:50]
Kevin Fagan
Our sound designer and composer is Hansdale Suit. Our editor is Nick White and our executive editor is Catherine St. Louis. Editorial support from King Kaufman and Tim O' Rourke for the San Francisco Chronicle. Executive producers are Sophia Gibber and Lena Bousager for Ugly Duckling Films and Jonathan Hirsch for Neon Hum Media. Want to live better?
[40:18]
Mike Taylor
We got a lot of work to do.
[40:20]
Kevin Fagan
Join Chris Hemsworth in National Geographic's new Disney plus original series, Limitless Live Better Now. I'm diving head first into cutting edge.
[40:28]
Mike Taylor
Science to uncover three powerful secrets to.
[40:31]
Kevin Fagan
Living better right now.
[40:33]
Mike Taylor
The growth that occurs through any challenging.
[40:36]
Kevin Fagan
Experience is really what we see. Chris Hemsworth stars in Limitless Live Better Now. Now streaming on Disney plus and Hulu. It's Showtime.

The Doodler | 8. Rays of Hope

The Doodler | 8. Rays of Hope

The Doodler | Episode 8: Rays of Hope

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Reactivation & Police Efforts

2. The Central Person of Interest (POI)

3. Roadblocks in Prosecution

4. The "Three Rays of Hope"

A. #1: Cracking the Psychiatrist’s Identity

B. #2: National Crime Linkages

C. #3: The Warren Andrews Murder

Reflections on Police, Queer History, and Ongoing Injustice

SFPD and the LGBTQ Community

Hate Crimes Then and Now

Victim’s Families and the Weight of Loss

The Human Side of Investigation

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

Key Timestamps of Important Segments

Conclusion & Episode Takeaway

The Doodler | Episode 8: Rays of Hope

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Reactivation & Police Efforts

2. The Central Person of Interest (POI)

3. Roadblocks in Prosecution

4. The "Three Rays of Hope"

A. #1: Cracking the Psychiatrist’s Identity

B. #2: National Crime Linkages

C. #3: The Warren Andrews Murder

Reflections on Police, Queer History, and Ongoing Injustice

SFPD and the LGBTQ Community

Hate Crimes Then and Now

Victim’s Families and the Weight of Loss

The Human Side of Investigation

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

Key Timestamps of Important Segments

Conclusion & Episode Takeaway