The Birth Keepers: Death plan

Summary

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The Birth Keepers | The Guardian Investigates

Episode 6: “Death plan”

Date: December 10, 2025
Hosts: Sirin Kale & Lucy Osborne

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Episode Overview

This gripping final installment of The Birth Keepers investigates the aftermath and tragic consequences tied to the radical free birth movement led by social media influencers Emily Saldea and Yolanda Norris Clark. Hosts Sirin Kale and Lucy Osborne delve into how these influencers amassed a global following and wealth while advocating for unassisted childbirth—resulting in numerous maternal and infant harms. Through survivor testimonies, insider recordings, and expert commentary, the episode interrogates the concept of "radical responsibility," the cult-like tactics of Free Birth Society (FBS), and the refusal of its founders to accept accountability, even after personal tragedy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rebranding and Legal Evasion

• Background: After negative feedback and public scrutiny, including the expulsion of students, Emily and Yolanda rebranded their "midwifery" school as the "Mentor Institute."
  • [01:19] Emily Saldea: “I think YO and I overplayed our hand calling this a midwifery school.”
  • The curriculum did not change; the rebranding was mainly to sidestep legal restrictions on the term "midwifery."

2. Online Backlash and “Cancel Culture” Defense

• The Reddit community ‘Free Birth Society Scam’ emerged, alleging cult-like practices and sharing stories of harm.
• Emily & Yolanda recorded a defensive podcast—Fruits of Cancel Culture and Mob Mentality—actively dismissing critics as jealous, bitter women.
  • [04:03] Yolanda: “They made up a bunch of stories and told a bunch of lies … ultimately it was and is nothing really, just jealousy. … Projection, essentially.”
  • [04:55] “The Reddit backlash [is] a public smear campaign…witch hunt…bandwagon of slander and vilification.”

3. Radical Responsibility vs. Real-World Consequences

• Survivors like Adair, whose daughter was stillborn after following FBS teachings, express anger at the lack of responsibility shown by FBS leaders.
  • [07:56] Adair: “Where does their personal radical responsibility come in, in recognizing the impact of their work … I feel pretty angry hearing them essentially say that they don’t hold any responsibility to any of us.”
• Emily and Yolanda’s response repeatedly deflects blame, arguing their words are only “information” and choices are each mother's responsibility.

4. Death Philosophy and the “Death Plan”

• FBS teachings openly address the possibility of newborn death, normalizing stillbirths and promoting the idea that death is not necessarily a wrong outcome.
  • [14:18] Yolanda: “There’s an overall assumption that the outcome was wrong, that death is the wrong outcome… I don’t think that can really ever be true.”
• Emily instructs followers not to rush to call emergency services if the baby is born dead, and, controversially, even discusses misleading authorities:
  • [16:44] Emily Saldea: “I would certainly lie if my baby was born alive and then died … That baby was born dead.”
  • Experts featured warn that this advice conflicts with legal responsibilities and children's rights to medical care.

5. Teaching Dangerous Birth Practices

• Emily is seen in an FBS podcast video observing her limp, pale newborn for over four minutes post-delivery, without seeking medical aid.
  • [21:03] Lucy Osborne: “In the video, Emily did not call 911 or resuscitate him.”
  • Medical experts compared this to “watching a parent sit by the pool while their child is quietly drowning and they do nothing.” (Michelle Telfer, Yale)
  • Emily frames her decision as a triumph of trust:
    • [22:10] Emily Saldea: “…I just breathed instead and smiled and kissed his face, knowing that he would claim his life.”

6. Birth Trauma Debriefs—A Business with No Qualifications

• FBS offers “birth trauma debriefs,” charging grieving mothers up to $800/hour for advice, though there’s no evidence of qualifications in grief or trauma counselling.
• Camille Voitau, who lost her son Marlo after free birthing, describes her initial reverence for Yolanda, followed by growing skepticism and confrontation.
  • [24:03] Camille: “I would drink from her words … I would just take it as true.”

7. Confrontation: Camille vs. Yolanda

• In a charged follow-up debrief (now at $800/hr), Camille, now pregnant again, questions Yolanda directly about her influence.
  • [26:35] Camille: “…when I felt maybe the need to seek help, I didn’t. Because I had your voices in my head telling me everything was going to be okay, that it was a variation of normal.”
  • Yolanda again deflects, stating:
    • [27:16] “If you took my voice on as the voice of authority … that is not my responsibility. … People are responsible for their own decisions.”
    • [28:50] “No, I don’t have any personal responsibility for what happened to you, Camille. And I am so sorry about your son.”

8. Emily’s Personal Tragedy and FBS’s Continued Expansion

• Emily’s public announcement: after rejecting prenatal care and interventions, she experienced a stillbirth.
  • [30:36] Emily Saldea announces stillbirth: “Our son, our baby was not born alive.”
• Despite three infant/neonatal deaths among just 15 MMI participants, FBS continued to expand, launching new courses and an “uncancellable” workshop.
  • [32:57] Emily: “It’s extremely difficult to … make money in radical ways, to withstand cancel culture, public scrutiny…”

9. Expert and Survivor Final Thoughts

• Experts reiterate that withholding medical help from endangered newborns is irresponsible and potentially illegal.
• Survivors reflect on moving forward, bearing lifelong grief, and hoping for accountability and awareness.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Blame-Shifting:
  • [07:56] Adair: “I feel pretty angry hearing them essentially say that they don’t hold any responsibility to any of us in any of this. Like, what was the point of the work you were doing if not to influence people?”
• On Fatalism:
  • [14:18] Yolanda: “…the outcome was wrong, that death is the wrong outcome. And I don’t think that can really ever be true.”
• On Deceit:
  • [16:44] Emily: “I would certainly lie if my baby was born alive and then died. … That baby was born dead.”
• On Peer Influence:
  • [24:03] Camille Voitau: “I would just take it as true.”
  • [26:35] Camille: “…I didn’t [seek help] because I had your voices in my head telling me everything was going to be okay…”
• On Accountability:
  • [28:50] Yolanda: “No, I don’t have any personal responsibility for what happened to you, Camille.”
• On Loss:
  • [10:22] Adair: “My child is dead. Because of information that I received from Emily and Yolanda, I made life-changing decisions based on that information that I paid for.”
  • [24:05] Camille: “Okay, Drink the Kool Aid. I was drinking it.”
  • [40:24] Adair: “There’s not a single day of my life where I don’t think about what it would be like if she was here… This is going to be a scar that’s with me forever.”
• On Fatalistic Teaching:
  • [19:41] Emily: “Some babies can take… five minutes, even longer… I’ve heard of babies transitioning… for even 10, 15 minutes.”
  • [22:10] Emily: “I… kissed his face, knowing that he would claim his life.”

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Rebranding of MMI: [01:19] – [02:27]
• Reddit & Podcast Response: [03:45] – [05:36]
• Mother Adair’s Story & FBS’s Radical Responsibility: [05:57] – [10:43]
• Birth Trauma Debriefs & Camille’s Story: [11:11] – [14:18]
• FBS on Death & “Death Plan”: [14:43] – [16:52]
• Legal/Ethical Issues: [17:09] – [18:30]
• Dangerous Birth Practices Example (Emily's Home Birth Video): [20:14] – [22:52]
• Camille Challenges Yolanda on Accountability: [24:08] – [28:50]
• Emily’s Stillbirth Announcement & Aftermath: [29:12] – [31:27]
• FBS Expansion, “Uncancellable” Workshop: [32:36] – [33:29]
• Survivor Updates/Reflections: [35:41] – [40:24]

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Final Thoughts

This episode exposes the profound harm that can result when anti-establishment health messaging and influencer culture intersect unchecked. While FBS continues to market “radical responsibility” as empowerment, the core narrative is one of disavowed responsibility—leaving bereaved mothers and families to bear the consequences alone. Even after the founders’ own tragedies, FBS doubles down rather than reflecting, raising urgent questions about accountability, informed consent, and the commercialization of maternal health misinformation.

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For anyone affected by baby loss, support resources are available—please seek help if needed.

Transcript

[Lucy Osborne]

This is the Guardian.

[Shirin Kale]

Hi, I'm Shirin Kahler.

[Lucy Osborne]

And I'm Lucy Osborne.

[Shirin Kale]

You're listening to the Birth Keepers, a new six part series from the Guardian Investigates.

[Lucy Osborne]

Just before we start, this series contains references to baby loss and maternal harm.

[Emily Saldea]

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[Lucy Osborne]

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[Emily Saldea]

Of projects, Monday Sidekick knows your business.

[Lucy Osborne]

Thinks ahead and takes action. One click on the star and consider it done.

[Emily Saldea]

And I owe it all to you.

[Lucy Osborne]

Try Monday Sidekick AI you'll love to use on Monday.com. In spring this year, after that group of students had been kicked out of the Maitrey Birth Midwifery Institute, Emily and Yolanda seemed to have a moment of.

[Emily Saldea]

Taking stock from the women who left the program, who did give us quite a bit of negative feedback. A theme among all of them was this is not a midwifery school and you shouldn't sell it as that.

[Lucy Osborne]

So in response, they rebranded the Maitrey Birth Midwifery Institute, or mmi. Emily explained why on a call with the remaining students, I'll be honest with.

[Emily Saldea]

You guys, I think I just overplayed my hand. I think YO and I overplayed our hand calling this a midwifery school.

[Lucy Osborne]

Now it would be the Maitre Birth Mentor Institute, which is the same thing.

[Emily Saldea]

It's literally the same thing. Like none of our material changes. It's the same program, same everything.

[Lucy Osborne]

Emily appeared concerned about the use of the term midwifery, which is regulated in many jurisdictions.

[Emily Saldea]

You know, it's hard for me to admit this because I don't want it to be this way, but when it comes down to it, in some legal frames, the word isn't ours to use.

[Lucy Osborne]

FBS also added a disclaimer to their Instagram claiming its content was for educational and informational purposes and not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any medical condition related to pregnancy or birth. It said. For medical advice, consult your healthcare provider. Emily and Yolanda were also dealing with another unfolding crisis. The Reddit community. We've mentioned it before, the one called Free Birth Society Scam. It accused FBS of using cult like tactics and it also included stories of baby loss and mothers nearly dying. After listening to FBS content. In August, Emily and Yolanda decided to respond by recording a podcast episode together. They were both pregnant at the time they recorded it.

[Emily Saldea]

What is a really shocking development in the beginning of this year to catch wind of a hate group that has formed about you and I.

[Lucy Osborne]

Emily and Yolanda pushed back hard. Here's Yolanda.

[Shirin Kale]

They made up a bunch of stories and told a bunch of lies and a bunch of other women who I think were also to some degree lonely and isolated, believed them. And ultimately it was and is nothing really, just jealousy. The normal stuff, the stuff that anyone with any degree of impact or fame deals with. Projection, essentially.

[Lucy Osborne]

The episode was an hour and a half long. It was called the Fruits of Cancel Culture and Mob Mentality.

[Shirin Kale]

I know with unwavering truth that what I'm bringing to the world is incredibly important and of so much value and that the work I do is in devotion to mothers, babies and humanity. Whether they appreciate it or not, it's not my concern.

[Lucy Osborne]

They called the Reddit backlash a public smear campaign, witch hunt and bandwagon of slander and vilification. They also rejected the idea that FBS is like a cult.

[Shirin Kale]

The contention is that, you know, how is it possible for this story, this story that you're both villains and liars and grifters and thieves and baby killers and manipulators and cult leaders. How can it not be true if so many women are saying it right?

[Lucy Osborne]

From the guardian investig. Hi, I'm lucy osborne. This is the birth keepers, episode 6 death plan.

[Shirin Kale]

What do you think about the FBS message about radical responsibility? You're shaking your head.

[Adair]

I don't know if it's appropriate for me to say it's bullshit.

[Lucy Osborne]

Adair's daughter Ilex was stillborn in January 2021, following 115 hours of labour. Adair was working as a musician and songwriter in North Carolina at the time. She did not have health insurance and couldn't afford a private midwife. She had not considered an unassisted birth before finding fbs. Okay, I'm going to press play now.

[Shirin Kale]

Okay.

[Lucy Osborne]

We played extracts of Emily and Yolanda's podcast, the one we just mentioned to Adair. Here's Yolanda.

[Shirin Kale]

I would describe the short version as sort of being that a bunch of very deeply insecure, bitter, sad, lonely women who had put us on a pedestal and really projected onto us what I see now was a real desperate desire for a guru. Like they were looking for cult leaders and they did a kind of 180 when they realized that we're both human to begin with, we're just, we're, we're normal human women and that we're also actually truly committed to self responsibility, which I think for many people, if not most people, is an unbearable proposition. It's very difficult for people to really understand even what that means, let alone how to implement it. And these lonely, bitter women banded together and created, as you said, a little hate club so that they could feel a sense of validation.

[Lucy Osborne]

Adair hadn't listened to it before, and we watched her react. There was this quiet fury on her face.

[Adair]

I want to be clear that, like, I don't think, I don't think it's their responsibility, what choices I made with the information they put out there. Like, that part is on me.

[Camille Voitau]

And.

[Adair]

But I wonder where their personal radical responsibility comes in, in recognizing the impact of their work and understanding that women like me are not making our personal choices in a vacuum. And I feel pretty angry hearing them essentially say that they don't hold any responsibility to any of us in any of this. Like, what was the point of the work you were doing if not to influence people and make a change in the world?

[Lucy Osborne]

There was another section we wanted to play. Ready for the next one? The part of the podcast, this bit from Emily that honestly shocked me.

[Emily Saldea]

Women who are thriving aren't spending their time in hate groups. And so it's a, it's, it's already just such a bottom of the barrel consciousness. Oh, I mean, I feel really, really sad. It's really sad, sad thing. And, and learn from it. See what's here for us and move the fuck on. Because that shit is like. It's like I'm picturing in Bali, when you get a pedicure, you can choose to put your feet in a. In a little fish tank where the fish just chew off your dead skin. It's disgusting, but I've done it and that's what it makes me think of. Just these little, like, gross, like, gnats.

[Adair]

Sorry, I just had to take a.

[Emily Saldea]

Second with that one.

[Adair]

You're a gnat eating my dead skin at a high end resort that I can afford to go to because I've taken money from you, you poor low consciousness dweeb. I'm gonna say two things. One, against all odds, given the last five years of my life, I'm actually thriving in a way that I'm really proud of. I'm happy with my work and my family and my friends, and it's a good life that I have found. And I want to point out that directly because of my involvement with free birth society, I will never again thrive at the level that I once could have because my child is dead.

[Emily Saldea]

And.

[Adair]

My child is dead. Because of information that I received from Emily and Yolanda, I made life changing decisions Based on that information that I paid for.

[Lucy Osborne]

Like Adair, every lost mum we've spoken to has spent months, years trying to unpick what happened to them. What responsibility does FBS have for what happened? What responsibility do the mothers have? Emily and Yolanda offer a service for mothers seeking to understand why their births went wrong. It's called a birth trauma debrief. We've seen no evidence that suggests that either Emily or Yolanda have any training in grief or trauma therapy.

[Shirin Kale]

Hi.

[Lucy Osborne]

In May last year, Camille Voitau logged on for a Zoom call with Yolanda from her home in Frontignon in the south of France.

[Camille Voitau]

I imagine meeting you so many times. I just never imagined this case.

[Shirin Kale]

I'm so, so unbelievably sorry.

[Lucy Osborne]

Camille had lost her son Marlo in a free birth just weeks earlier. At the time, Camille Couldn't afford Emily's $350 per hour price for a debrief. But Yolanda agreed to give Camille a discount of her rate. So camille paid her $150.

[Camille Voitau]

I just remember seeing her on my computer screen and talking to her live and thinking I was talking to a celebrity, like, oh, I'm so grateful. I'm so lucky. I get to talk to Yolanda.

[Lucy Osborne]

Camille had decided to free Birth. After researching it for over a year, seeking out French and English resources, she'd purchased the Complete Guide to Free Birth, listened to the podcast every day, and read Yolanda's book portal.

[Camille Voitau]

Maybe you want to tell me, like, your first reaction from reading it, because I took the time to write it yesterday, so it's fresh.

[Lucy Osborne]

Camille had emailed Yolanda an overview of what had happened during Marlo's birth.

[Shirin Kale]

Ahead of the call, my first reaction when I read it and the response that I had after reading it several times is how much your beautiful baby's birth resembled births that I've witnessed and my own births as well, and just how unfathomable the mystery is of life and death.

[Lucy Osborne]

Early in her labour with Marlowe, there was a moment when Camille saw meconium in her waters where she felt there was something wrong. But she opened her laptop, rewatched some of the meconium chapter of the Complete Guide to Free Birth, pushed away that intuition and decided to stay home. On the call, Yolanda told Camille that it sounded like a normal birth.

[Shirin Kale]

There's really nothing about your story that, that, that, that indicates anything that really is out of the realm of what can be completely normal in a birth that results in a baby that is fine and healthy. You know, that's what I thought.

[Camille Voitau]

And that's why I needed to talk to you, because it's like, of course, you're trying to make sense of everything. And it's like when your brain goes back on, it's like, what's going on?

[Lucy Osborne]

But we can never know if things would have turned out differently if there had been a medical professional there. But when I listened to her recording of the debrief, there was something Yolanda said that I wasn't able to get out of my head.

[Shirin Kale]

There's an overall assumption that the outcome was wrong, that death is the wrong outcome. And I don't think that's. I don't think that can really ever be true.

[Lucy Osborne]

We've talked about the FBS philosophy on birth, but we haven't talked about their philosophy on death. Here's Emily telling her students about it.

[Emily Saldea]

So a baby dies and a story could be, she shouldn't have died. Right now, whose business are we in when we say the thought she shouldn't have died?

[Lucy Osborne]

Emily taught them to always have what she calls a death plan. They needed one, because, as Emily has suggested to her followers, stillbirths are not rare.

[Emily Saldea]

It's not rare. It's not rare in the free birth world. It's not rare in the normal mainstream, you know, hospital setup. It's natural. Death is occurring at all stages of life. And it's just. I don't know if. Would you. I don't know if I'd say common. I don't know what would define it as common, but it's definitely not rare or uncommon.

[Lucy Osborne]

Her first advice, if the baby is stillborn, don't rush to call 911. Let the family grieve in peace.

[Emily Saldea]

There is no rush to do anything if the baby is gone. Something that will sometimes happen, or I'll hear about these stories is the baby's born dead and somebody, the doula or the dad or whoever will knee jerk, call 911 in case there's just something that can be done. Well, obviously, that doesn't actually make logical sense. Dead is dead.

[Lucy Osborne]

In a conversation with students about avoiding the involvement of Child Protection services, Emily warned them to be wary in cases in which babies die after being born alive. Then she told her students that if she gave birth to a baby that later died, she would mislead the police into thinking the baby was stillborn.

[Emily Saldea]

I would certainly lie if my baby was born alive and then died. And then I involved the police. That baby was born dead.

[Shirin Kale]

Mm. Yeah.

[Emily Saldea]

What's the benefit? Yeah, I gotta be Careful on this recorded line, though.

[Lucy Osborne]

Emily also suggested it was up to parents to decide whether to seek medical help in an emergency.

[Emily Saldea]

For some women, giving birth to a severely compromised baby at home and allowing that baby to die with dignity in the arms of their family who love them is a reasonable outcome.

[Lucy Osborne]

We spoke to experts about this. They said that children have rights to medical care. So if a child dies that was born alive and you didn't try to help them or call 911 after you saw they needed help, that's potentially breaking the law. That goes for parents as well as anyone else present, including birth keepers. If grieving families chose to bury their baby on their land, Emily passed on this advice.

[Emily Saldea]

I remember asking an underground midwife in Australia what they do with babies who die, and she said, we just dig a little deeper. Yeah. And I appreciate that. I've never forgotten her saying that.

[Lucy Osborne]

There's this apparent fatalism in FBS that can be hard for outsiders to understand. If you've given birth to a baby, you'll be familiar with that terrifying moment between the baby being born and the baby crying. That silence when you don't know if they're okay. It can be so scary. But Emily and Yolanda, they're willing to wait that silence out and not worry, because they teach that babies need to choose to claim their breath, choose to live. Here's Emily speaking on the FBS podcast.

[Emily Saldea]

So babies don't need to be suctioned. They need to learn how to breathe on their own. They need to. You know, I could get into a whole thing about the spiritual context of this, but I just think it's so. I think it is so profound to marinate on this idea of your baby walking with this story at his back or her back, that she knew how to get born and she claimed her breath.

[Lucy Osborne]

Even if that process can take far longer than most people would find acceptable.

[Emily Saldea]

Some babies can take, you know, five minutes, even longer. You know, I've heard of babies transitioning. Yeah. For even 10, 15 minutes.

[Lucy Osborne]

Here's Yolanda talking about free birthing one of her children.

[Shirin Kale]

He was born limp and seemingly lifeless, and it didn't even cross my mind to give him breaths or to do anything to him, just because that's not how I approach things. That's not it. Just. That's not my instinct.

[Lucy Osborne]

Emily took the same approach when she had her second baby in a free birth in October 2022.

[Emily Saldea]

I got you.

[Lucy Osborne]

She filmed the aftermath of the birthday and posted it on the FBS Instagram. Her newborn son appeared Pale and limp.

[Emily Saldea]

Hello. Hello, my sweet baby.

[Lucy Osborne]

Emily glanced at her husband Johnny behind the camera, who was filming her.

[Emily Saldea]

I knew you weren't a little.

[Lucy Osborne]

The baby grunted and showed signs of acute respiratory distress.

[Emily Saldea]

Take your time.

[Lucy Osborne]

Over an agonizing 4 minute, 40 second video.

[Shirin Kale]

I'm not worried.

[Emily Saldea]

I'm not worried about you.

[Lucy Osborne]

It was hard to watch.

[Emily Saldea]

That was just absolutely, absolutely nuts. Yeah, it's okay.

[Lucy Osborne]

In the video, Emily did not call 911 or resuscitate him.

[Shirin Kale]

It's okay.

[Emily Saldea]

Yeah.

[Lucy Osborne]

The video got 8200 likes on Instagram and was influential in the FBS community. We showed it to experts. They observed the baby was floppy, pale and not breathing. One said that it would be standard practice for a professional in these circumstances to suction the baby's mouth. Within a minute, a midwife or doctor would have begun resuscitation, not just to keep the baby alive, but to ensure they did not suffer brain damage from oxygen deprivation. Michelle Telfer, a Yale midwifery professor, said, quote, it's like watching a parent sit by the pool while their child is quietly drowning and they do nothing. Emily's son survived, and she later reflected on the moment on the FBS podcast.

[Emily Saldea]

I looked at him covered in mucus and gunk and fluid, and thought about this bizarre ritual that so many providers and even mothers themselves, participate in. The sucking of a newborn face in their first few minutes of life. I felt my quick interest in wanting to do that, in wanting to help, in wanting to hear him cry. But I just breathed instead and smiled and kissed his face, knowing that he would claim his life.

[Lucy Osborne]

For Emily and Yolanda, when a baby claims their life, they choose to live. And when a baby dies, to quote Yolanda, it's not necessarily the wrong outcome. Coming up, Camille tries again. Get answers. In the months that followed Camille's birth trauma debrief with Yolanda, she started to have more questions. Had she been right to put so much trust in this woman and an fbs?

[Camille Voitau]

Whereas before we have an expression in French that says, je buvais, c' est parole. Like, I would drink from her words. Like I would be fed from her words. Whatever she would say. And they would say, with Emily, I would just take it as true.

[Shirin Kale]

Drink the Kool Aid. That's how we say it in English.

[Camille Voitau]

Okay, Drink the Kool Aid. I was drinking it.

[Lucy Osborne]

She had come to realise that she wasn't the only mother to lose their child after following fbs. So why in all the podcasts she had heard, had she not heard any woman regretting their decision to free birth after losing a baby, she wanted answers. But more than that, she wanted to hold FBS to account, not just for herself, but for all the lost mothers.

[Shirin Kale]

Camille, Hello.

[Camille Voitau]

Let me put you on full screen.

[Lucy Osborne]

Yolanda agreed to do another birth trauma debrief with Camille, but now her rate had increased to $800 an hour. This time, Camille was less starstruck and was not afraid to ask Yolanda more difficult questions. She was also pregnant again.

[Shirin Kale]

You're pregnant. You're seven months pregnant now.

[Camille Voitau]

Yeah.

[Lucy Osborne]

Camille told Yolanda that this time she wanted to give birth with midwives.

[Camille Voitau]

You know, it's just this idea that, yeah, it could also happen at birth. Accident. And if it happens, I want to make sure, you know, someone can help me.

[Shirin Kale]

Well, you can't make sure of that. You can't ever be sure of that. People die in the hospital. Babies die in the hospital, birthing mothers die in the hospital. So, I mean, that's just the truth of it. So this idea that the hospital can provide you a guarantee of security and safety, that the hospital can guarantee that your baby will survive, is not true. I've worked with many women whose babies have died in the hospital.

[Camille Voitau]

I agree with that. But I'm just saying with, like bleeding to death, if my artery or something like. And it's blood, you know, it's. That's where you go, right? If you're bleeding to death, you go to the hospital. Would you rather die free birthing than going to the hospital?

[Shirin Kale]

I can't really answer that. I. I've never been in that situation where I felt that I have that choice as the way I've been faced with that choice.

[Lucy Osborne]

The call between Camille and Yolanda got increasingly tense.

[Camille Voitau]

Do you understand that by saying this, when you spend a year and a half listening to you and reading your book and listening to all of your content, do you understand that it could influence women not to go when they could have been, or they could go in extreme cases like that, because you were the only one. I listened to, Yolanda, you and Emily, for a year and a half. And when I felt maybe the need to seek help, I didn't. Because I had your voices in my head telling me everything was going to be okay, that it was a variation of normal.

[Shirin Kale]

I have never, ever said to anyone in my books or any of my content, Camille, that there is any guarantee that everything will be okay. And if you only listened to me and Emily, and if you took my voice on as the voice of authority for you, then I am sorry, but that is not my responsibility. I am so sorry about your baby, I truly am. But I wrote a book and I put a course out into the world that anyone who encounters it has the responsibility of experiencing it the way that they experience it. I don't think it's fair or right or moral to hold an author of a book responsible for the choices that someone else makes. People are responsible for their own decisions and their actions. And you could have read other books, you could have gone on other websites. I am so sorry about your experience, Camille, but you are a woman that I don't know who lives in France.

[Camille Voitau]

I think that you answered all of my questions and I understand that you don't take any responsibility for what happened to me.

[Shirin Kale]

Right? No, I don't have any personal responsibility for what happened to you, Camille. And I am so sorry about your your son.

[Lucy Osborne]

This summer, Emily posted on Instagram about how wild her pregnancy had been, listing all the prenatal care she had opted out of, ultrasounds, blood tests, urine tests, not knowing her glucose levels, the position of the baby that she had not taken, any fetal heart tones, she wrote, quote, at its core, wild pregnancy and free birth are about radical responsibility. I found more freedom in my pregnancies and births than I ever imagined simply by allowing them to unfold on their own, free from medical management. Shortly after that post, Emily stopped putting personal updates on social media. Then Emily posted again. Dear Free Birth Society Community, I am writing the hardest thing I've ever had to share, to endure, to live through. I recently gave birth to a beautiful baby, stillborn at 41 weeks of gestation. Our son, our baby was not born alive.

[Emily Saldea]

Hi women, before we dive in today, I need to name something important. This episode, along with all episodes that you will hear until our winter break in mid December was recorded before my birth, prior to mid August. Since then, our family has walked through the unimaginable. Our son was stillborn and we are in deep mourning. As these shows air, you'll hear and see me pregnant, which now feels incredibly painful and weird given that you are holding the sacred knowledge of what came after. So please forgive the dissonance. These stories still deserve to be shared and heard. We welcome your prayers.

[Lucy Osborne]

When the news of Emily's stillbirth got out, it sent shockwaves through the FBS community. There were 15 teachers and students who were pregnant during the first MMI cohort. Emily's loss brought the number of full term stillbirths or neonatal deaths to three out of 15 women in just six months. A lot of the women Shirin and I spoke to wondered if Emily's tragic loss might be a moment for FBS to change direction, to stop promoting such a radical version of free birth, which concerns even some pro free birth advocates. But no, FBS was standing firm. They launched a new course called Grift. In September, Yolanda flew to visit Emily in North Carolina.

[Shirin Kale]

So, so good to be here. So beautiful here. We're looking out into this glorious emerald forest, Blue Ridge Mountains, and yeah, I'm so thrilled that I get to be here with Emily in person.

[Lucy Osborne]

Sat together at Emily's house. They hosted their grift workshop on how to become, quote, un cancelable.

[Emily Saldea]

So the main point here is that it's extremely difficult to speak what is true for us, to take risks, to branch out beyond the herd, to make money in radical ways, to withstand cancel culture, public scrutiny, criticism.

[Lucy Osborne]

They used the opportunity to sell places on their second MMI course after the backlash to the last MMI school in which many students left or were kicked out. The next cohort was going to be smaller, more intimate.

[Emily Saldea]

Last time we had 70 or so and it was awesome. But yeah, we just want more intimacy.

[Lucy Osborne]

Dear Yolanda Norris Clark, I'm a journalist at the Guardian and I'm writing to.

[Shirin Kale]

You because we're planning to publish a series of articles and podcasts about the.

[Lucy Osborne]

Free birth society in November. We emailed Emily and Yolanda the findings of our investigation. You've read summary, leave a message. Hi there, Emily. It's Lucy Osborne here. I'm a journalist. We also invited them both for an interview. Initially, neither of them responded. After our first article on FBS was published in November, we noticed that Instagram comments referring to our investigation were being deleted from the FBS page. Emily posted to her Instagram, this is what it means to be a disruptor. They will try to discredit you. They will lie about you. They will attempt to silence what they don't understand. She goes on to say, peddling propaganda on mainstream news channels is nothing new. There is nothing to defend. Mob mentality has captured those dwelling in darkness. We pray for them. Later, in an email replying to our request to comment, Emily said, quote, some of these allegations are false or defamatory. In a recent newsletter, Emily announced plans to translate the Complete Guide to Free Birth into more languages so it can be shared across the world. Despite everything, FBS isn't stopping, it's expanding. The women we met during our reporting have all tried to move forward with their lives.

[Shirin Kale]

She's going to be so Quiet now, but she is so talkative. She doesn't stop when it's just her and Mummy. Right.

[Lucy Osborne]

Nicole lives with her daughter in New Jersey. She's now two years old.

[Camille Voitau]

Is that your horsey?

[Lucy Osborne]

They do everything together.

[Shirin Kale]

A dear friend of mine has coined her my barnacle because she's just attached to me. We're just wherever we're together. How his mother hit and how is it different to how you thought it would be when you were pregnant? Well, I had high hopes for motherhood and it's kind of lived up to that. I will say it's one of the best experiences ever I've ever had. And it's so difficult and so challenging and so exhausting, and yet I am so happy. She's incredible.

[Lauren]

When you first set up, everything we had, nothing was here. It was all completely raw land. So everything that you see, we brought in. So you know when you first move into raw land.

[Lucy Osborne]

Lauren now lives in a trailer on an acre of land in the Arizona desert. Journey's three younger siblings run around barefoot and show me their 35 animals. Dogs, cats, ducks, goats, chickens and turkeys.

[Emily Saldea]

Yeah.

[Lucy Osborne]

Do you want to show us around?

[Emily Saldea]

Yes.

[Lauren]

Oh, you're going to show them the baby chickies.

[Lucy Osborne]

They made the decision to move completely off grid with no address after all the hate mail they received following Journey Moon's death.

[Lauren]

Our five year old knows about her big sister and she talks about her and she asks about her, and we just try to honor her and remember her every chance we get.

[Lucy Osborne]

Lauren showed me Journey's tiny urn. It has a hummingbird on it.

[Lauren]

To our family, to my, my parents, too. Hummingbirds will always represent Journey, because when we just had her and I was just kind of coming out of the, all that medication and everything, I looked out the hospital window and there's a little hummingbird hovering and just staring at us. I was like, chris, I think that's Journey. And, yeah, that just kind of became like our thing. So every once in a while, we don't have hummingbirds out here, but every once in a while, you'll see a hummingbird just kind of fly by. He'll hover in front of the window. Scarlet has seen it. We go, hi, Journey. And so hummingbird, his journey.

[Shirin Kale]

I also saw a hummingbird get this.

[Camille Voitau]

Close to my face.

[Lucy Osborne]

So close.

[Lauren]

They'll come say hi to us, won't they?

[Shirin Kale]

Yay.

[Lauren]

So we say, that's her checking in on us.

[Lucy Osborne]

Camille recently gave birth to a healthy baby boy. She told us that it was the birth she always wanted for her son and for herself, and that it felt like a free birth of sorts, because even though it was at the hospital, there was no intervention and she felt respected, heard, and safe. Camille tells us that after Marlow died, she received a message of love from him.

[Shirin Kale]

Where do you go when you want to feel close to Marlow?

[Camille Voitau]

The beach. Yeah, we spread his ashes in the sea in front of our house. So, yeah, that was very powerful, beautiful. The name Marlow has signification with water and the beach, and we already chose it because of that reason. So, yeah, he's there. Whenever we walk on the beach, he's with us. I feel better and reassured that he's there. You know, his soul is there.

[Lucy Osborne]

A year after Esau was born, Gabby gave birth to another baby boy, Emilio, in the car on the way to the hospital. An accidental, free birth.

[Shirin Kale]

I'm just happy that both of my sons are happy and they're healthy and that they're here with me.

[Lucy Osborne]

Esau is now 3. He loves it when Gabby sings to him or blows him bubbles in his wheelchair.

[Shirin Kale]

All I can do is just keep going on forward and healing and.

[Emily Saldea]

Trying.

[Shirin Kale]

To give him the best life possible.

[Emily Saldea]

Change.

[Shirin Kale]

Like the wind like the wind.

[Lucy Osborne]

Adair is now the director of a summer camp for kids in Vermont. She lives in a cabin in the mountains with her partner and their son.

[Adair]

Every time I see a little girl who would be my daughter's age, which is quite a lot because I work with children, you know, I think about it all the time. I don't think there's a single day of my life where I don't think about what it would be like if she was here and if my son had his big sister. You know, I don't. I don't really expect that to ever change. And every milestone that goes by, I'll still be thinking about that. So, like, this is going to be a scar that's with me for forever.

[Lucy Osborne]

Emily Saldea and Yolanda Norris Clark were both approached for comment about the issues raised in this series. Neither provided a substantive response. Emily has previously criticized other media coverage for unfairly depicting her as, quote, some manipulative cult leader and said she does not care whether women free birth, but wants them to have the option to choose. Yolanda has previously said FBS is the most ethical kind of business you can run. Thank you for listening to the birth keepers. Reporting and presenting was by Shirin Kale and Lucy Osborne. The series producers were Elizabeth Cassin and Joshua Kelly. Music composition and sound design was by Rudy Zagadolo. The podcast artwork was by Laurie Avon. Additional reporting by Elizabeth Cassin, Olivia Lee, Joshua Kelly, Lucy Hoff, Tom Wall, Joseph Smith and Philip McMahon. Analysis of FBS financial records was by Stacy Ferris, forensic accountant and academic at Virginia Polytechnic Institute. Additional production by Lucy Hoff, Anais Delmer, Catherine Ball, George McDonagh and Phoebe McIndoe. The consulting producer was India Rackerson. The production managers were Jackie Timberlake, Ellie Cole, Anna Ochakavia. The commissioning editors were Nicole Jackson and Paul Lewis. This is the Guardian.