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- [00:00]
Eric
We are going to win. The big question now is, is like, on what time span is that going to be? Who are going to be the people that implement it? And like, how is this going to manifest itself?
- [00:12]
Hodl
The bitcoin story is going to go boom, rocket ship, blockfi, rocket ship. It's going straight up into the right. Okay, and all your dreams are going to come true. And then what? And then what? What the fuck are you going to do after you have a Lambo and a mansion, what do you do next? Spend a lot more time thinking about that. Because Lambos and mansions come and go and by the way, like, they're nothing. It's all nothing. It just means nothing. Like, you're flying first class, you're drinking champagne, you're in a Lamborghini. It means fucking nothing. There's no difference between drinking high lives and sitting in the back of a Camry and flying southwest. It doesn't matter. None of that shit matters. The thing that matters is the world we build, the world we leave behind. Bitcoin's a thousand year system. We are going to be. We're the new capital allocators of that world. And we're going to be leaving large amounts of bitcoin and hopefully new ideas and new systems to the people that come after.
- [01:04]
Eric
It's like, look, if you're too retarded to like, play out a full game theory and that, like, you only got that far, like, congratulations, like, you lose. And like, anybody who's actually smart enough to get what's going on is like, oh shit. Like, nationalization is like a real risk at this point in time because like, obviously, like, we can't ever pay off the debt.
- [01:24]
Hodl
The, the Bible says that you should keep a third of your wealth in gold, a third of your wealth in real estate, and a third of your wealth in your business. And honestly, that advice is 2,000 years old. It's fucking great advice. Like, if you just replace gold with bitcoin and you did that, you would just be super prosperous. Like the, your, your FA ain't gonna tell you that shit. The Bible's got you covered though, dog.
- [01:49]
Eric
We have bitcoin, it's successful. The nation state can't stop us. Like, if you motherfuckers could actually think for yourselves instead of listening to these fucking pieces of shit on MSNBC who fucking hate you and want to make sure that you stay in the box, you could actually free yourself from this.
- [02:04]
Hodl
Our broad alignment between the public and the state can actually, we can create like a life raft for Everyone. And we can basically save everyone who lives around us. In America at least. We can't save the world, but we can save the other Americans.
- [02:19]
Eric
The really beautiful thing, in my opinion is that, like, what we're talking about isn't batshit crazy stuff. In fact, like 90% of humanity is in total agreement with us. And now we have this great thing called the Internet and we have this great way to communicate called Noster, where, like, we can do that in a censorship resistant way that like, there's an actual possibility that we could save the world from the global panopticon and totalitarianism that's coming. But that's going to demand a lot of effort and sacrifice in a way that's different.
- [02:47]
Hodl
It's nothing. Nothing, nothing is permanent. Everything is temporary. Everything is cyclical. Everything, you know, transforms. And like Eric said, the neoliberal world order, which basically is a cover story for the largest theft ever known to mankind. There's, you know, they're stealing from every human being on earth every time they hit the print button on the Fiat Central bank computer. That is coming to an end because people just simply can't stand it anymore. It has reached its inevitable conclusion, or it's very near its inevitable end state. And I just don't think it's going to go on for that much longer, especially once the boomers are gone. Because they're the only ones who are deeply in love with it. Everybody else is like it, who needs it?
- [03:28]
Eric
You know, most people are completely cucked pussy. And this is like a quote from Julian Assange, but something like the realization that like, courage is way more rare than intelligence. When I finally got that, I was like, oh, shit. Like, this is super alarming because, like, you can have smart motherfuckers who are just limp dick pussies that'll just bend over the moment that you tell them. I'm gonna you.
- [04:00]
Walker
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs. My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast. Bitcoin continues to create new blocks every 10 minutes. The value of one bitcoin is still one bitcoin. And if you're listening to this right now, remember, you are still early. If you're not already, go ahead and subscribe to this show wherever you're watching or listening, and share it with your friends, family and strangers on the Internet. If you want to follow me and the show on Noster and X, just head to the Show Notes to grab the links. If you're enjoying the Bitcoin podcast and Want to support it by becoming a paid subscriber? You can download the Fountain app store, search for the Bitcoin podcast, and subscribe. By paying with Bitcoin via Lightning or Fiat via Card, you'll get access to ad free episodes and early releases of select content. Plus, you'll help support this show. Head to the Show Notes for product discount links. Go to walkeramerica.substack.com to get episodes emailed to you and head to bitcoin podcast.net for everything else. Without further ado, let's get into this bitcoin talk. Dude, I'm not gonna lie. That, that camera's pretty sweet, man. You've really, really putting me to shame over here. I've just got my old stationary camera, like some like, Stephen Glansburg over here.
- [05:26]
Hodl
I got my own camera operator. You know what I mean? Like, fucking dude.
- [05:29]
Walker
It's. It's pretty dope. All right, let's see if zap stream works. Say yes. App.stream's working, you guys. What a glorious day. I was honestly a little nervous. I was like, man, I hyped this stream too much for the stream, like, not to work. Okay, it does. I. I have a way of doing that. Okay. We should be rock solid, though. Sick. I'm just gonna blast this out.
- [05:51]
Hodl
I was like, dude, Eric, I was. My first vlog was on fucking Giorgio am amgigan. I can never say his name to say.
- [06:00]
Walker
Nobody sure how to pronounce it after your video.
- [06:02]
Hodl
The state of exception.
- [06:04]
Eric
You read it?
- [06:05]
Hodl
Well, I was. I chat GPT the beats.
- [06:08]
Eric
Oh.
- [06:09]
Hodl
So, I mean, essentially, yes, I did read it.
- [06:11]
Eric
Nothing is lost in translation there. And it's definitely giving you highly accurate information, so. Well, something. I'll take it.
- [06:17]
Hodl
You were the one who told me about it when we were hanging out in Los Angeles. And I've been thinking about the concept ever since you said it to me. And I just can't stop thinking about it lately. Especially like with Donald Trump's like, move to federalize, you know, the Washington D.C. police Department Police force.
- [06:34]
Eric
Well, let's be fair in that this wasn't just ambiguous concept, but he got it from our Nazi friend Carl Schmidt, because that's. We always got to come back to the Nazis. So that's a fun time. But, yeah, actually I'm reading the same Nazi again on other esoteric political theory, which has been really fun, actually.
- [06:53]
Hodl
It's always fun to read Nazi literature.
- [06:55]
Eric
You know, it's always fun to explain to, like, liberal girls in San Francisco, like, why I'm reading Nazis. Like, it's. It's a really great.
- [07:02]
Walker
No, no, it's cool, it's cool. It's not what you think.
- [07:05]
Eric
No, no. So, like, yeah, he was a Nazi and like, sure, he defended the Night of Long Knives, but he's like, not a bad dude. He's not.
- [07:13]
Hodl
I. I was putting together. I was going to put together like a shelf of like, just, you know, the most controversial books of all time. And then I, like, I was in the Amazon cart and I was like, mein Kampf. And I was like, I don't actually want to build this shelf a book that's like, I'm not gonna buy Minecamp.
- [07:32]
Eric
Minecamp off of Amazon. Like, you can actually do that.
- [07:36]
Hodl
This was like some years ago. I don't know that you could still do it today.
- [07:39]
Walker
I feel like you should be able to do it though, like, on principle, right?
- [07:43]
Eric
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like the whole thing about the First Amendment and like the freedom of speech thing that like, people don't like anymore because they're like, oh, no, words are scary and they could like, hurt me. So I can't let people say shit that they don't like. Which, by the way, like, shit going down in the uk, like, how fucking wild.
- [08:00]
Hodl
Oh, it's crazy. It's the most dystopic thing. And then you talk to them and they're. Some of them know what's going on and they're despondent. Like, they're just, you know, so depressed about it that they can't even, like, move themselves to any meaningful action. And then others will tell you with a straight face, I've never heard of this. What are you talking about? And you're like, what do you mean, what am I talking about? And they're like, oh, well, yeah, I heard about the woman who was put in jail for three years and can't see her children because she was a horrible racist. But I mean, that just makes sense. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This lady expressed an opinion that she, you know, it was uncouth, whatever you're gonna say about it, but she deleted it like 10. She went for a walk and deleted it an hour later. So if you can't have a human moment and post on the Internet and then decide, you know what, that doesn't really reflect my values, I'm gonna delete it. I mean, that's the. It's the craziest. You're living in a full on totalitarian concentration camp.
- [09:02]
Walker
Even so she didn't like, call. Did. I'm. I know this the case you're talking about, but, like, she didn't like, call explicitly for violence, did she? Or anything like that.
- [09:11]
Hodl
She said something effective like burn, you know, burn the mall or something.
- [09:15]
Walker
Okay, so. Okay, so it was. Could potentially be like, in.
- [09:17]
Hodl
Well, like in America. In America, the call to violence has to be specific and credible and imminent. There has to be an imminent threat. Violence. So if I say, yo, we should fucking kill all those Midwestern fucking D bags who, like Miller Light, like Walker, fucking douchebags, just murder them all.
- [09:39]
Walker
We should do it right now.
- [09:41]
Hodl
That's fine, because NBC, it's so broad. It's so broad that it doesn't matter. But if I was like, you know, Walker lives at this address and he's. You need to go kill him right now. That's. That's an illegal threat, you know?
- [09:55]
Walker
Yeah, that's. I'm glad you're not making that threat, by the way. Well, I'll take you to court. See you in court. Sir. The. The. The influencers that you posted or whatever the other day that, like, were bragging with. With probably like fake numbers, because who has that much money, like fiat in a bank account? But anyway. Yeah, yeah, like, I had multiple people be like, oh, that's like Walker and Carl. It's like, do you like, really of, like, all the things, like, after all the things you've seen, Carl and I, do you think we'd be like the ones out there for some reason still using TikTok and then like, bragging about. First of all, like, if I had 200 BTC, I would not need to shill affiliate links on this podcast.
- [10:33]
Hodl
Yeah, a bunch of people thought that. A bunch of people thought that was. That was you guys for some reason, I think just because the dude is. Is a similar build to you, but.
- [10:41]
Walker
The girl, I thought that guy looked like a bitch, honestly. So, like, I'm kind of offended.
- [10:44]
Eric
Well, you're just both.
- [10:45]
Hodl
You're both just like slender dudes. You know what I mean? So, like, you know, it's a compliment.
- [10:49]
Walker
Okay. Yeah. Doesn't feel like I couldn't tell the.
- [10:53]
Eric
Difference because of how good looking he was. And I was like, is that Adonis?
- [10:56]
Walker
Thank you. Thank you.
- [10:58]
Eric
I can't tell.
- [10:59]
Walker
That's. That's exactly what I was thinking too. No, it's, It's. It's wild in the uk, though. I was just. I was talking to some gals that were. Were visiting, like, this was like a month or two ago, and I was Asking like, what do you, like, what do you think about the situation there? And they're like, obviously like pretty, pretty based and, and they're. We're basically like, no, it's, it is as bad or worse than it than people say. And like. But to your point, Hodo, like even in the uk, like a lot of people just like won't like won't talk about it or aren't aware of it. But I guess like we have the same sort of. I guess that's like, that's perhaps a global condition where like not everyone's going to pay attention to stuff. But it's wild there because it seems so acute that it's like, how could you not pay attention to. It's like, how could you not be aware?
- [11:44]
Eric
Yeah, well that's the whole, that's the censorship recursive thing. It's like we can censor you bringing attention to it. So like, I'm pretty sure that there have actually been like thousands of people that have been jailed for this at this point in time. But because you can't publicly speak about it in the uk, nobody's aware about it. So they're like, what do you mean this stuff is happening? It's like, oh, it's because like we can now memory hole everything because you can't actually talk about it. Yeah, and this is the kind of first principle shit that like I find bananas that like people can't like put together being like, wait a minute, if they like can censor stuff, doesn't that mean that we don't have access to like, what the actual information it look, whoa. Maybe that's like not good. I like being like. You know, there's like other people who are like way smarter than you or me who like thought about all this like hundreds of years ago before, like their brain could be rotted by tick tock. So they could really sit down and like think hard about. And it turns out they like figured out like here in the United States they're like, you know, it's like being able to like speak openly thing, this is like really important because like, if we want to be like the king, that guy sucks. Like, that's kind of a big priority for us to be able to do that. But I don't know. A lot of people can't put this shit together. And it's deeply, deeply concerning.
- [13:00]
Hodl
Something you know, I think about quite a bit is. You ever heard David Foster Wallace's this is Water speech? It's a really good speech. I would recommend everybody look it up. And essentially the story is that two young fish are swimming along and an older fish comes by and goes, how's the water today, boys? And the young fish turns the other one and says, what the fuck is water? And so it's like the water in David Foster Wallace's analogy is the dogma that pervades your life. It's the cultural presuppositions that you've never thought about. You've never had a meta critique or analysis of. You don't even know they're there because they're just so part of your world. And for the British, I think not having free speech is actually baked deeply into their culture because they've never had free speech ever. It's not like they lost it at some point. And when, you know, one example I've used with British friends over and over again when we're at dinner, I always bring this up and I say, you know, sarcasm, British sarcasm, famous dry humor is a reaction to you guys not having free speech because you need to be able to say, no, I meant the opposite of what I said. I was being sarcastic, right? And they go, no, they're just British, mate. You know, fucking whatever. And it's like, no, it's just funnier. It's a constraint that came up. Americans are funny too, but Americans are funny in a way where we can be bold and brash and outright about what we want to say, right? Where you can't do that in England because you always need the trap door. The fallback of, I was just taking the piss. I was just being sarcastic. I meant the opposite. I actually meant it. No, I meant it sincerely or I didn't mean it sincerely, whatever it is. And that's something that's very difficult for British people to see clearly. And in fact, like, those in the audience who are British will be upset at me for saying this, because they usually are, but I keep saying it repeatedly because it's important to poke at the invisible fence. You know, in like, Jurassic park, the velociraptors are always testing the fences and they never test the same spot twice. It's important to be doing that in your. Your own life and with your culture. And like, the. The things that you take for granted, like what is the water that is around you. And we have our own in America. So I'm not uniquely putting this on the Brits. I'm just saying, like, that's an example from their culture and part of why this is going on with, you know, the draconian anti speech Stuff over there.
- [15:23]
Eric
It's kind of interesting, the fence testing part about. Because, like, I think a lot of people have never, like, tried to touch the fence. And so if you're like, that's a fence. They're like, what? No, like, I'm, I'm totally free. I can go wherever I want. You're like, so, like, go over, touch it.
- [15:37]
Hodl
Yeah.
- [15:37]
Eric
And they're like, well, I have no need to go over there. Like, like in theory, in practice, like, why don't you try that? And it's kind of interesting because, like, no, like, I don't, I don't want to. I really like it right here. And it's like, I think you might just be a pussy.
- [15:51]
Hodl
Yeah.
- [15:52]
Eric
That's also one of the other, like, really despondent things I've realized is that, like, most people are completely cucked. Pussy. But like, and this is like a quote from Julian Assange, but something like the realization that, like, courage is way more rare than intelligence.
- [16:10]
Hodl
Yeah.
- [16:11]
Eric
Like, when I finally got that, I was like, oh, like, this is super alarming because, like, you can have smart who are just limp dick that'll just bend over the moment that you tell them. I'm. I'm gonna. You and like, this happened one way or another. All right, no fight. Let's. Let's do this. It's like, oh, wow, that was alarming and easy. I actually, it's very.
- [16:31]
Hodl
I actually think smart. I think smart people can be more susceptible to cowardice than people who aren't. Because, you know, if you can think about all the potential consequences from taking an action, then you're less likely to take that action. Whereas somebody who's dumber would be like, I was gonna fucking do it and see what the fuck happened. Right.
- [16:53]
Walker
But if, yeah, smart people rationalize, like, you can, you can always rationalize your way out of something because you're like, well, because of X, Y and Z. This is why, of course, I shouldn't go and do this. Like, yeah. Versus, like, the fuck it.
- [17:04]
Eric
Like, well, in addition to the fact that particularly like mid bell curers, because I like, think they're really smart. Like, they're way more susceptible to, like, the social heuristics that are around them where they go, oh, if I like, say the outlandish thing, like, I can get canceled. Whereas, like your right bell curve in your left bell curve people, like, I really like that the right bell curve people understand that the left bell curve people is like their main ally. And that little like, hey, we'll like team up because, like, I'm smart enough to get that, like, all of the reasoning of, like, why you're actually right in the life. Huh? That just feel good. It's like, all right, like, well, we should do well here together.
- [17:40]
Walker
I. I think that might be my favorite. Like, my favorite meme format. Like, if I had, like. And that's a tough. That's a tough ask, right? Like, if you had to pick one meme format that, like, that's the only meme format you can use, like, the rest of your life. Like, that's it. You're locked in. I think that might be it for me. Like, it might be the bell curve meme because it just. It hits on so many levels. I don't know.
- [18:00]
Hodl
No, it's. Do you know how many people don't know what the bell curve. Do you know how many people don't know what the bell curve meme is? The average person, the midwit on the bell curve, has never heard of the bell curve meme. That's again, back to the dogma that pervades your life. They don't even know what the bell curve meme is. Right. Whereas we all use. I was talking with Mason, one of the young guys from the True north podcast, when I was up in Portland, and. And he. We were talking, we were discussing Bitcoin, treasury companies. I was giving a take, and he was like, I think you're mid curving it, dude. And I was like, wait, am I mid curving? You know, and we all do that to each other, right? Like, that's like our way to be. Like, hey, you're. You're thinking like a normie. You know, they. The normies have never heard that, because to exist in a state of meta analysis about norm breaks. It pops the bubble that is norm. So you can't even think the word normie when you're a normie. That's the dog that pervades your life.
- [18:59]
Eric
Well. Or like, normie isn't like, a pejorative to them. They're like, oh, thanks. Yeah, I live in the box, naturally. I invest in my 401k. It's great. You know, everything.
- [19:11]
Walker
Let me have it when I'm retired. So.
- [19:13]
Hodl
I'm sorry. I like Taylor Swift in football. I'm sorry.
- [19:17]
Walker
Good time, you know, Crazy. Cracking open a Miller latte. Just. Just doing it, you know.
- [19:23]
Eric
You catch the game last night? It was sick.
- [19:25]
Walker
Sure did. I'm glad that our local sports team beat the other local sports.
- [19:29]
Hodl
There was this group. There was this group of young black millionaires and then they advanced the ball against the other group of young black millionaires. And it was sick, dude. I fucking. I creamed in my pants. No, it's sweet, though, because there were.
- [19:41]
Walker
A couple of young white millionaires, too, and they were. Seemed to be at the center of the formation. It's really strange, too. I don't know, man. I don't get it.
- [19:48]
Eric
Hey, guys, like, is it up that a bunch of white billionaires own all of the black billionaires that are proceeding to give each other brain damage for your inner cool?
- [19:57]
Walker
It's cool now because they're well paid.
- [19:59]
Hodl
Nah, bro, that's cool. That's not. Shut up, dude. You.
- [20:03]
Walker
That thought makes me uncomfortable. I don't like that. I'd like to turn off that. Oh, no, thank you.
- [20:09]
Eric
I like the uncomfortable shifting when you, like, bring up to people like that. And like, you know, now I've obviously, like, pigeoned myself into, like, bitcoin guy land, which is infuriating because anytime it starts, it's always like, oh, you like crypto? And I'm like, no, the fact that, you know no difference between bitcoin and crypto shows that you know absolutely nothing about either of them yet. I'm sure you have strong opinions about it. And they're like, well, yeah, it's destroying the environment and all the water. I'm like, yeah, that's exactly why they're developing fucking new infrastructure in rural Africa where people have never had access to energy before. And they could do it with bitcoin mining. Same reason why the largest hydro plant in America was saved by bitcoin mining, because it absolutely destroys the environment. Right? But you know so much about how environmentalism is affected by electricity markets because you clearly have expertise in this, right? Like, with such strong opinions about how the electrical markets work, like, I'm sure that you understand the difference between, like, baseload and otherwise, right? And they're like, huh? I was in a room, motherfucker.
- [21:11]
Hodl
I was in a room arguing. Arguing this exact thing. We're at this point now, a group of normies. And, you know, I basically said, I gave them this long dissertation about flare gas mitigation and how it works and, you know, how bitcoin miners take advantage of this and how, you know, they're contributing to, you know, lack of emissions, emissions in the atmosphere, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the. The normie audience listened to this entire thing and was like, yeah, but still, bro, and it's okay, man. Why did I take the time to explain how things work to that's I think. I think it's like being a normie, if we're gonna. You know, it's not like a specific type of person, right? It's. It's. It's not like, if you live in the Midwest and your name is Karen and you're 30 pounds overweight, you're a normie. No, like, that's not what it is. Although, like, probably. You probably are a Norman. But it's. It's a lack of. It's. It's being fundamentally incurious. That is what it is to be a normie. It's having no ability to, you know, have a thought outside of a perceived box of approved thoughts. And. And then. And then not caring that you've never had an unapproved thought. Just not caring at all and being like, that's fine.
- [22:21]
Eric
I don't.
- [22:21]
Hodl
Why would I need to have different thoughts? These thoughts are great.
- [22:25]
Eric
It's the water thing again. Like, it's. It's not even a lack of care. It's. It's like, whoa, wait, hang on. Like, I can. I can think these things. It's like. Like, why don't you just try, like, taking on some of it, like, as a thought experiment in itself. Like, one of the ones I find fascinating is asking people to steal man stuff. And they're like, what? And it's like, well, let's just. Let's just, like, try on for a minute that, like, maybe instead of, like, Orange man just being absolutely an evil traversy and a piece of shit, that, like, maybe some people could possibly have some values that for a good reason, they like him. And they're like, you. You like Trump, don't you? And it's like, no, like, I think he's a piece of shit, too, but could you see how there could be reasons that someone could like him? And they're like, can I. Can. I think that that's like, yeah, you can. You can actually try on that thought and not believe it's true. And they're like, you know, no, no. And it's like, yeah, yeah, go ahead. Like, think about it.
- [23:32]
Walker
It's genuinely so wild like, that, like, a huge swath of the population does not have that ability at all. It does not have the ability to put themselves in the shoes of another in. In, like, a meaningful way, in a way that actually would allow them to think different thoughts or, like, just quite literally think thoughts that are not the ones that they've been programmed to think. Like, they. They literally can't even conceptualize. And that's why. It's like, you wonder, like, oh, why is the political discourse as it is in America? It's like, well, because literally most of the people having this discourse are incapable of even comprehending that the other side may have valid reasons for why they believe what they believe, even if it's not saying what they believe is right or wrong or anything. It's just that they have reasons. They didn't just come to these. I mean, some of them are just programmed with them. But they're also legitimate grievances, right? Why do they have those grievances? What reasons could there be for that? Have you thought about that at all? And just most people just like, no, they're just bad. They must just be evil. They must. They must just be bad people. And if you're talking about communists, yes, that's a pretty good heuristic because. And this goes back to. I was thinking about this today, actually, before your vlog, and I want to shout out to your vlog, now that we're live on air. Go watch Hodl's introductory vlog. It's awesome. I liked the mouth part when you got really close in there, too. That was nice.
- [24:45]
Hodl
I put the camera inside my mouth.
- [24:46]
Walker
Yeah, yeah, it was cool. I can't tell if it's a big mouth or a little camera. Neither. But anyway.
- [24:52]
Eric
Oh, no.
- [24:55]
Walker
But I was actually. I woke up this morning thinking. I don't know why, but I woke up this morning just being like, it is fucked up that communists get away with being communists in this day and age when, like, Nazism is so absolutely despised. Now, I think Nazism is correctly despised. I think communism should be despised on that level and then to another degree because it has killed an order of magnitude more people.
- [25:18]
Eric
Right.
- [25:19]
Walker
It's something like what? Depending on.
- [25:21]
Eric
But that wasn't real communism, though.
- [25:23]
Walker
Yeah, no, yeah, that was just a sparkling, sparkling communism. You know, like, it's only real communism. It's if it's from the, you know, communist region of, yeah, you're fuckedistan. I don't know. But, like, I was just thinking about that and you. You talking. I don't want to give away too much of your vlog because people should watch themselves, but you talking about. About Nazis and stuff and the Holocaust, it just made me think about. And again, guys, you should watch Hodel's vlog because me saying this out of context sounds.
- [25:51]
Hodl
Sounds bad, but I have a neo Nazi blog. We praise the hog.
- [25:59]
Walker
It's not at all what it sounds like. My point being, it is insane that you can, as a university professor, as part of the intelligencia, you are totally. It's totally acceptable for you to be like, yeah, I'm a communist. And I think, you know, these communist ideas, I think these are valid. Or I think, you know, socialism, which is just a bridge to communism, is a good idea. When this is something that's killed over 100 million people, like, conservatively. Oh. And, you know, since it was. Since it was first started to be practiced, like, that's insane that you can have that as your ideology and that people are like, yeah, that's actually a totally. Like, you're still socially acceptable as a member of our, you know, member of our society. In fact, we would love to give you funding. Can we give you a grant, sir? Because I think that the way you talk is just great. And you've got like the Zoran, whatever his name is, mom died, New York, who's just. Yeah, yeah, just. Oh, my God. Do you see the video with him and Warren where they're like, they're laughing, they're having just a good time, and it's just like, you sick communist fucks. Disgusting.
- [27:02]
Hodl
You should treat communists the way you would treat a group of individuals who had gathered on the street corner outside your house and were making elaborate plans for how to murder you and your family and then take all of your belongings and you could hear them in earshot. That's how you should treat, by the way, back to the thing about how people discern reality and this team sport thing where politics are now. This side, that side, whatever. I think that when you're young, you have a true false filter because you need to figure out what the. How the world operates. And so you think to yourself, like, I see this with my children. Like, is this true? Is this not true? Are ghosts real or are they not? You know what I mean? Like, are. Like, I took my kids to Disneyland recently. It's like, is this a real mouse? This is a guy in a costume. You know, you have to figure you have to run that filter when you're a kid. But as you get older, a lot of people, it's back to the incurious part. Like, they shut off that filter and then they replace that filter with an us Them filter. And the reason they do it is because, you know, thinking via convention is very easy. It's very easy to think in group because you're outsourcing that thinking. And so there's. It's no cost to you. Whereas if you're going to spend all of your Time thinking. Like, Eric Cason spends 99.99% of his time thinking, the other 0.01% jerking off. I assume.
- [28:24]
Eric
I mean, like, you're. You're being generous with the ratios there, but it's.
- [28:29]
Hodl
It's a lot of. It's a lot of mental load. Like, it's. It's very pun intended.
- [28:36]
Eric
It just.
- [28:37]
Hodl
It takes a lot of time. And we all know as people who try to engage in thinking that it's extremely difficult and costly and it's painful and it hurts. And like, like the scientific process, you're always wrong. So, like, the, you know, the normie mindset thing is, like, I feel like I'm constantly taking off my normie hats, and then I take off another normie hat and another normie hat and another normie hat as these truths unveil themselves, as I continue to search for greater and greater truths, you know, well, it's.
- [29:03]
Eric
Funny that, like, we. This kind of returns us all the way back to, like, Socrates apology of that, like, look, like, like I'm stupid. Like, I don't. I don't know much about the world or how it works. And, like, the more that I figure out, like, the dumber I feel like I'm reading Schmidt's political romanticism right now. It's phenomenal. But, like, as I'm reading it, I'm like, this is really hard to understand, and I feel really dumb. But also, then, like, I go out in the world and I encounter these people who are like, particularly, like, politicians and investors. Like, they. They're just like, I am absolutely certain about this thing. Like, I know how the world works and, like, you don't. And I'm just like, God damn. To, like, have that amount of hubris. Like, I'm a little jealous. Like, I. I wish I could just, like, turn off thought and just, like, bore forward. And the irony is, is that, like, it's that degree of stupidity that actually allows for them to perform so well. Whereas, like, if you've actually thought hard enough and long enough about stuff, like, there's always this thing where it's like, I could be pretty wrong. So, like, I really gotta, like, try to position myself and my feet on truth. But yeah, I find a deeply shocking thing at how confident people will be about how right they are. And furthermore, like, that's kind of this heuristic of, like, it actually shows how chicken and callous they are because, like, it's really just about saying the. That people want to hear as opposed to actually creating sincere dialog with other people. And like, now that I live in the Bay Area, like, in the bubble that is liberalism, it's pretty interesting how often that, like, because I obviously don't ascribe to contemporary political theory, but so, like, it really throws people for a loop when, like, I don't necessarily subscribe to their liberal beliefs, but I'm like, oh, like, I'm an anarchist. And they go, wait, hang on. I'm like, like, one of the things I, like, I keep coming back to is that, like, you know, obviously, like, like, your body, your choice. Absolutely. So, like, when I want to do heroin, like, I really hope that you're not going to stop me and be like, in solidarity. And they're like, what? And I'm like, yeah, like, if it's my body, my choice, like, we should be able to do whatever drugs you want whenever we want, and, like, nobody should stop us. Actually. Like, we should probably get the state to, like, sponsor drug programs in different ways and, like, needle exchange and have, like, that's what we want the state to do, right? And they're like, yes. I'm like, furthermore, like, my body, my choice. Like, I should be like, if I want to modify it with, like, a grenade launcher as my arm, like, we should be able to do that. No, like, hang on. Like, I'm not certain about that. But for me, like, I just like them. I like to try to, like, murky the water as much as I can because, like, I don't know the right answer, but I'm pretty sure that, like, how confident you are that your answer is right, like, isn't true. So, like, let's just murky this up and like, make it as confusing as possible.
- [31:47]
Hodl
I, I like, I like to do a similar thing where I. I data dump as a 2 online person. I like to data dump online meme culture onto normies in real life where I'll just. They'll just be like, you know, how's the weather? And I'd be like, oh, it's great, man. Did you catch the. The thing between Fuentes and Carlson and. And Candace Owens? And there's a whole thing about, like, he's a, he's a anti Semite. But, like, they're like, you know, you might be CIA and there's like a whole thing here and blah, blah, blah, and the normies are just like.
- [32:18]
Eric
I.
- [32:18]
Hodl
Don'T know what you're talking about.
- [32:20]
Eric
Well, it's also threatening to realize, like, how much, like, I feel really lucky that, like, I'm. I'm like, Working at Presidio Bitcoin, and, like, I'm surrounded by bitcoiners, which is like this great heuristic filter for, like, pretty intelligent people. But then I like, go back and interact in normie land, and I'm like, oh, shit. Like, we're like, a few standard deviations out of the field of, like, what normal conversation can be had. And it's just. It's just really unfortunate because I realized, like, how much you really have to, like, water way down. And so it's disturbing that, like, I keep repeatedly getting in the conversation where we have to, like, begin at, like, okay, you, like, don't know the difference between bitcoin and crypto, but, like, you're convinced I'm a crypto, bro, despite the fact that I tell you it's not. And it's always just fun that I'm like, I literally wrote a book about this because I got so fucking sick of explaining this over and over. And then they're like, can I read the book? I'm like, yeah, but it's. It's gonna be a little advanced for you.
- [33:14]
Hodl
So, you know, for the first time in my life, I'm starting to understand the French. You know, the French hate it when you try and speak their language. Like, let's just speak your stupid language. Don't speak our language. Right? I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm having the same experience when people ask me about bitcoin stuff. It's like, I'd rather just not talk about it these days. Whereas, like, all of us are going, like, deeper and deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole, and we're like, egging each other on to go even deeper. And it's like, you're thinking like a midway. You're thinking like a normie. Oh, I am. Oh, shit, I should go even deeper. What's the deeper. Like, how do I go here? You know? Whereas when you talk to your whoever in real life, even if they do have a piece of information, it's like a chimpanzee with a handgun where they're like, yeah, no, I know about warm wallets.
- [33:54]
Eric
And you.
- [33:55]
Hodl
Okay, enough.
- [33:57]
Walker
Stop it.
- [33:59]
Hodl
You shot me with your bad piece of information.
- [34:02]
Eric
But that fascinates me is, like, again, here we are at an all time high where people had fucking listened on the last podcast that we did together. They would have, like, made money, but, like, no, like, we have to do this whole cycle again. And I'm just. I'm just infuriated at, like, at what price point do you, like, take me seriously, Like. Like how. Like, where is it where you stop and go?
- [34:23]
Hodl
Never.
- [34:23]
Eric
You know, like, maybe I'm just. And these guys actually know what's better than me and like, me, maybe I should try to listen to them. But yeah, it's never. And like, it's infuriating. And also, like, there's something quite poetic about it as well, is that like, they're engaged in this form of life where they're like, oh, like, I want to escape the slavery that is my nine to five. And like, I wish I wasn't constantly fighting inflation that everything wasn't so expensive, like, the whole shebang. And it's like, I have a very simple answer for you. And they're like, no. Like, what would you ever know about that? And it's like, well, like, I'm not in the slave camps with you, and like, I can kind of do whatever the fuck I want. And they're like, look, you got lucky. And it's like, huh? So best of luck with you. Like, I. I'm gonna go enjoy my life. Like, have fun getting up at 6:30 to like, drive through traffic to like, get to the job that you hate.
- [35:17]
Walker
You know, the casino case. And I think we're up. Like, we're up maybe like $30,000 per coin since the last time you told people they were retards for not listening to you the time before that, from which we were like, up I don't know how much. Like, yeah, so, like, your advice has continued to prove sound, and I hope that people will listen. Like, this is one of the most fun to do.
- [35:38]
Hodl
It's one of the most frustrating things because, like, back to the true false heuristic. One of the things I thought when I got into, like, investing in general, even before Bitcoin, is I was like, okay, well, at least in, you know, investing world, there's a scoreboard for how right I was right? So I was like, at least people will see the scoreboard and be like, there's a number behind how. How right this guy was. Nope. Nobody looks at the scoreboard. They don't care. And they don't. They don't view you as right. What they do is they all just put their head in the sand and pretend that, first of all, you never told them what you said. Number one, you never told me that. I never watched that podcast. I don't. I don't even know who. Eric Case, right? No. Yeah, he's Eric. He's been my next door neighbor for 10 years. But I've never talked to him. I don't even know that. I don't even know that, man. Right? And then, like, like, yeah, you're my brother, but I've never spoken to you.
- [36:27]
Eric
We don't.
- [36:27]
Hodl
We have nothing in common. Like, this is how the normie mind. It will do whatever it takes in order to protect itself from, you know, the truth, from reality, essentially. And we're just. We're never gonna get it, man. No one's ever gonna come back and say, you were right. Never. Never.
- [36:45]
Eric
I. No. And it's. It's never happened. I finally accepted that'll never happen. It's funny because this reminds me, like, my dad and his friends had, like, an investing club for a while, and like, they, like, you know, at the beginning, I'm obviously like, oh, like, you guys should buy bitcoin. Like, that's obviously like, the right answer. I'm like, oh, no, too. Like, all the. It was great because, like, when they would, like, I'd, like, kind of check in with them every six months and be like, oh, hey, guys, like, let's see, like, the bitcoin investment I told you guys about is up 250. What? How are you guys doing? Like, what's like, oh, you guys are up 15.
- [37:19]
Hodl
Whoa.
- [37:19]
Eric
Like. Like, come back and it's like, okay, so we're, like, up 600 over here. Like, you're 25. Whoa, guys, like, you're gonna retire a couple months early. Like, do you. You guys factored in inflate? Oh, no. You didn't factor in inflation? Oh, well, shit. On the CPI index, you guys are actually down 12%. Yeah, what do I know? Like, I'm just a bitcoin guy, right? Like, I couldn't know anything about finance, right? Like, I don't even have a 401k because, like, why would I want to have the thing that is going to ultimately lose 30% of its value because the government's going to be stealing from you. And then if you try to take any money out early because there's a crisis that happens, the government's gonna steal half of it. But, you know, what could I know? Anyway, so you guys have fun. I don't know. I just, like, it's just frustrating because I realized, like, I'm locked in a world with a bunch of idiots who believe that they're way smarter than me. And I'm just finally gotten to the place where it's like, have fun. Yeah, like, you're definitely way smarter than me. You know, you get up real early Go to that job that you really don't like. You're stressed all the time. You're doing all the normie stuff. Trying to perform these other people's standards, like, sounds really great. You sound like a really, really happy person. So good luck. And I'm. I'm going to be miserable over here with my magic Internet money. So it's like. It's like.
- [38:42]
Hodl
It's like children. It's like having children. It's like when you tell your child, like, don't touch that, and they're like. And then they get hurt. And then you're like, I was going to happen. This was all, you know. Yeah, I. You know, I hang out on, like, on Bitcoin Clubhouse, and we just, like, talk the most insane shit about, like, political theory or the markets and, like, it's like, constant, like, dick jokes. It's a combination of, like, CNBC on LSD plus, like, Howard Stern plus, like, the Joe Rogan podcast or some shit, right? And I have no way to contextualize this for normies, so I just say, it's my investor group. I'm talking to my investor.
- [39:23]
Walker
Wait, so, like, I think. Was it you that you. Was it you that posted about this, like, recently, where you're like, yeah, we're still, like, hanging out on Clubhouse. And I was like. I thought. For some reason, I thought that Clubhouse, like, as an app, had, like, shut down or people like. Like, it is still.
- [39:36]
Hodl
Well, it's. It's like. It's like Bitcoin's water cooler. Like, okay, like, when you go on spaces, like, Twitter spaces, it's horribly gay. And the reason why. The reason why just the worst. It's like a conference where everybody's like, well, I wasn't done speaking. Well, I wasn't done speaking. How about shut the fuck up? None of us care about any of you or what you have to say.
- [39:57]
Walker
It's like Bitcoin, LinkedIn, you know, like, it's like. It's like, oh, God.
- [40:01]
Hodl
So Clubhouse is like. Clubhouse is like the bar at the conference where we would just be like, yeah, cool, talk.
- [40:06]
Eric
It was.
- [40:07]
Hodl
It sucked. I hated it. You know, like, we have a different cult. We have a different culture over there where we just, like, talk mad shit all the time. It's very fun, but honestly, it's my own special thing. So don't come over. I don't want any of you guys.
- [40:19]
Walker
I don't want to be over there. I don't.
- [40:21]
Hodl
Don't.
- [40:23]
Walker
Yeah, I'm not going to. Dude. I'm in fact, I'm going to figure out a way to shut it down so you can't have nice things. Just so you know, it's gonna be. It's over for you. British government involved.
- [40:33]
Hodl
Should we talk about the sutification of bitcoin? Like, you know, the Twitter spaces linkation of like, what's going on where everybody's like, oh, man.
- [40:41]
Eric
Like, I.
- [40:41]
Walker
It's just a bunch of orange t.
- [40:44]
Eric
The thing I hate the most is like somebody comes in pretty based with like some cool. You're like, all like, I like this person. I like what they're doing. And then they're like, oh, like, I got my bitcoin treasury company now. Like, like, number go up forever. It's just like, damn it. Like, why? Like, this is why we can't have nice things. Like, no, no, you don't understand. Like, we own the bitcoin and the number go up. I'm like, guys, like, there's so like. Like, you're like, you're at least holding your bitcoin, right? They're like, yeah, for sure. Like we. We hold all of our ibit. I'm like, no, that's. That's something else. They're like, no, it's bitcoin. You're like, no, it's not. Yes, it is. Do you want to fight about this, bro? It's bitcoin. I'm like, look, it's a synthetic derivative of bitcoin, which means that it's not bitcoin. They're like, but you just said it's bitcoin. I'm like, God damn it. We can't have this conversation. You're too fucking stupid. You're stupid. I. Look, I own a bit more treasury, but how many bitcoins do you have? I'm like, that's my fucking point. I actually own bitcoin. You don't. You own this other thing. You just said that. I was right. I own the bitcoin. I was like, God damn it. Okay, you win. You win. Bitcoin goes up forever. There's no problem with your investment scheme. You're just going to get rich and see our world. It just goes to $10 million. But everything's normal. It's not like this infects hyperinflation. And your company's totally fine. And it's not like the US government shows up to steal all your bitcoin because you obviously own the bitcoin, right? Yeah, fine. We can't have X things.
- [42:30]
Hodl
So I. I own and participate.
- [42:34]
Walker
Love you.
- [42:35]
Eric
In a Little.
- [42:36]
Hodl
In a little bit of bitcoin Treasury. Like, I do do a little bit of bitcoin treasury shit. I'm not going to lie. Say I don't. I do. But bitcoin treasury companies are literally. You send me one bitcoin, I send you two back. That's literally what they. What they are. And like, the. The nationalization risk for MSTR especially is sky high. And in fact, sometimes I look at my retirement account and just think to myself, am I stacking bitcoin for the US Government? Like, is that what I'm doing? Am I lending my capital so that the US Government can ultimately, like, nationalize this hoard of bitcoin at some point in the future? And I think the answer might be.
- [43:17]
Walker
Yes, you know, but, like, is everybody with 401k? Basically, like, every. Like, okay, so, like, I have a 401k that I had from my. My. My times as a Accenture consultant, you know, for, you know, a little while. And. But. And then I just stopped contributing to one after that. But then I found it again and threw what was in there into mstr and that did well, because it turns out that my, whatever Vanguard Target 55 retirement thing was just not even keeping pace with inflation. And I finally paid attention to this account again. I was like, oh, that's a stupid thing to do. But I've always viewed retirement accounts as like, boy, that is just the easiest honey pot for the US Government to siphon stuff. Like, siphon bits off of when they need to. And like, you may say, like, well, like, you know, they would never do that. It's like, really? They'd never do, like, they'd never. They would never change the rules because they made serious miscalculations as far as demographic shifts and like, our Social Security, you know, Ponzi scheme is completely insolvent. And like, you know, I don't know, our national debt is completely unsustainable. Like, they would never change the rules. Like, really. And it's like, everything's totally fine. But, like. So, yeah, my point being that, like, you might be stacking bitcoin for the US Government through a proxy, but everybody is also just stacking, you know, stacking fiat for the US Government through that retirement account as well. So, like, you know, it's. Everyone's in the same boat there. But I'm curious. Oh, God.
- [44:50]
Eric
I just want to comment on, like, I just love the ultimate game theory. That comes down to it is like, look, if you're too, like, play out the full game theory and that, like, you only got that far. Like, congratulations. Like, you. You lose. And like, anybody who's actually smart enough to get what's going on is like, oh, like, nationalization is like, a real risk at this point in time because, like, obviously, like, we can't ever pay off the debt. And obviously, like. Like, anybody who has, like, a full brain, like, does that process. And they're like, oh, like, that's what. Like, that's why bitcoin is what it is and how it exists. And, like, I don't know. It's just really amazing to me that, like, people will get, like, to 90% and they're just like, full stop. And it's like, hey, hold up. Like, that's like, not the full equation. They're like, but number go up. I'm like, I have more money. Like, life is incredible. And it's like, yeah, but, like, what happens if the state decides that they want to take that? And then they're just like, that would never happen. And it's like, but what if it did? Like, but it won't. And I'm like, yeah, but in a hypothetical situation, if that were to happen, what happens? They're like, but it won't. I'm like, God fucking damn it. I'm trying to do a hypothetical. And they're like, look, like, I don't know about hypotheo whatever. Like, I just know I'm making a bunch of money and you're not. So who's right here? And I'm like, fine, you fucking win. Don't talk to me ever again.
- [46:16]
Hodl
There are some, like, okay, so there's some positives of treasury companies, right? I think one of the positives is that for years we've been telling people to buy bitcoin and they just straight up fucking didn't. And they never will and they never are going to. And like, every now, Once Bitcoin crossed 100k, essentially, everybody realized that, oh, shit, bitcoin's real. It's going to happen. It's going to million stars coin. But for some reason, they all have the normie mental block where they believe that even though this story is happening, they're not going to be participants in the story. Okay? But many of them have pensions, many of them have 401ks, many of them are invested in the S&P 500, the NASDAQ, et cetera. And, you know, from a passive indexation standpoint, bitcoin is now making its way into the traditional markets. And so they are going to get bitcoin exposure. They're not going to get actual Bitcoin. They're not going to have sovereign level bitcoin. They're not going to have the digital, you know, monetary, nuclear weapon grade bitcoin that you have, but they're going to have exposure to Bitcoin's price appreciation. Okay, because they have exposure to Bitcoin's price appreciation. We get a broader alignment with them. These people that we've been trying to lead these horses to water and can't make them drink for now, 15, 16 years. We get broader alignment where they don't want to pull out the pitchforks and stab us to death and take all our. So that's good. The other thing that's happening is, you know, the sbr, right, which is, you know, potentially it's going to happen. Lummis has a bill. There's a way they can do it via executive order, but the legal theory is novel, blah, blah, blah. And so, like, that's again, a broader alignment of our interest with the state. Interest. I know, like, you know, Eric wants to have a fight with the state where they gulag him and, you know, he's like, he screams, libertas. And then they, you know, chop his head off. But I would like for Eric to live and I think that.
- [48:03]
Walker
Don't threaten him with.
- [48:04]
Hodl
I think that our broad alignment, our broad alignment between the public and the state can actually, we can create like a life raft for everyone and we can basically save everyone who lives around us. In America, at least, we can't save the world, but we can save the other Americans.
- [48:22]
Eric
And I think that's, oh, I can save the world. I got a plan here. Don't worry.
- [48:26]
Hodl
I think that that's something that Bitcoin communism.
- [48:28]
Eric
I'm gonna do that.
- [48:31]
Hodl
It'll make our lives, it'll make our lives better if we have broader alignment with people. And so that is the silver lining to the treasury companies and the nation states, et cetera. But again, if you're giving up control of your keys, you're not operating a sovereign level. And I don't know if you're going to be defensible for the times that are coming ahead, because there are many, many paths here where things could go horribly wrong. The path I'm outlining is a pretty good path where, like, the monetary changeover happens and we are able to backdoor exposure into almost every American's life.
- [49:06]
Walker
I mean, so, like, there's a couple of things there. Like, yeah, on, on the one hand, I'm like, I Completely agree with you. I also think like treasury companies, nation state adoption, all of that is, was always going to be inevitable if bitcoin is successful like that. Of course, like you would have to be like literally not to do that as a nation state or a company if bitcoin is the, you know, is successful and is in the process of hyperbitcoinization. So that's, that's going to happen now, like whether or not that's good or bad. I agree with your point in alignment and it's kind of like the forget hodl when, when you said this, but basically like, you know, like we're still Trojan horsing them and we just have to like shut up about it a little bit. Like we just need it. Like we're inside, like they brought us inside the gates. Just like everybody, like, just like stop arguing with each other. Like, just shut the fuck up. Like we're in the horse right now. Like everyone's about to go to sleep. Don't wake them up. And I feel that what I'm, you know, I think like, and like I have a little bit of exposure to like a couple of treasury companies, like just for fun. Like that, that's my, like, that's my shitcoining right now. You know, it's like, oh, like this is like, this is like my, you know, my Vegas baby. It's like, I'll take a couple of cuck pucks and gamble on these.
- [50:17]
Hodl
I've also, I think people, it's Weimar. We live in Weimar.
- [50:22]
Walker
Let's go crazy.
- [50:28]
Eric
What was that?
- [50:28]
Walker
Like I said. Well, I wanted to clarify. My goal is to get more bitcoin. I'm probably going to fail. But like it's, it's a remind. Like my goal is to trade that for more bitcoin. Now I am like 99% sure going to fail. And that's why it's a de minimis amount for me.
- [50:42]
Eric
SBRs are like safe needles. It's like, look, if you're going to do drugs, like, let's make sure that you're not going to get hiv.
- [50:50]
Hodl
It's harm reduction shitcoining. Yeah, yeah.
- [50:53]
Walker
I think what a lot of, what a lot of people are not acknowledging, obviously because they're trying to sell equity, is that like the majority of the treasury companies are going to underperform bitcoin. Like over a couple of years they might outperform bitcoin for like a month, but they're going to underperform bitcoin. Like as soon as that time horizon gets stretched Even a little bit. And like microstrategy, I'm putting that in like a. That's its own category, right? Like that's, that's obviously a completely different player. The rest of them, I would say maybe there's like, there's going to be a few that outperform bitcoin over like a four year cycle. I don't think it's gonna be that many.
- [51:31]
Eric
What about a 40 year cycle like that? That's always my question is like, what's your time horizon? Because like, yeah, yeah, you like make a bunch of money, but then the problem is, is that like we get 6102 and now like your money is like this surveilled thing that like has liquidity stops on it to where it's like, yeah, like I own like $30 billion, but the problem is like a carton of eggs is a million dollars and I'm only allowed to withdraw $10 million a month, which should be clear. $10 million has the purchasing power of like 50 bucks right now. And like, it's, it's super obvious to me that like this is the play and it's going to work super well because it's like we're going to get CBDCs, which is like a private public partnership where it's like, no, no, look, the government could never ever be able to have a CBDC because we have JP Morgan and Citibank Coin and like, yes, they're like interoperable because of all this really great technology. And like, we don't hate you at all. We're like giving you 500 free dollars a month. Oh, but like, you said the word Nazi on the Internet, so actually you don't, you don't get any money unless, like you're gonna do your online re education course, which, like, that's gonna be some dystopian where it's like, all right, gotta give us full access to like root your computer. And like now you need to be watched. Like, oh, you looked away because your child was set on fire. Like, you don't get any money now, like, we're going into like some, some really crazy dark. Yeah. And most people are just going to swallow that right up and be like, you know, the government loves us and they gave us $500. I'm like, didn't. Did they put your grandpa into the re education camp so that he wouldn't say those, Those, Matt. Those. Those not so nice things about the brown people anymore? It's like, yeah, but to be fair, grandpa was really Racist be like, yeah, all of our grandpas were really racist. That's just kind of how the world worked at one point in time. And like, while it wasn't okay, it was also learn that like, hey, like, these racist things aren't fair or kind to them. And like, now we have a more fair and balanced view. But now, because we can't actually hear grandpa's racist things, people just go out into the forest and they actually get in Klu Klux Klan outfits and like, think really horrible, terrible things. Because you can't just let them have the outlet to say this up stuff in public and have other people be like, hey, that wasn't very nice or thoughtful of you. Maybe there's brown people that are good too. You know, like, to me, that's the craziest thing is that, like, there doesn't seem to be any logical imperative where people, like, people legitimately just think, like, it's always bad that people say these things. It's like you realize that like, in the 1960s, Nazis literally marched through Jewish neighborhoods of people that survived the Holocaust. And the who stood up and was like, these dudes need to do it was a dude who survived the Holocaust and he defended them in front of the fucking Supreme Court. And he fucking won. Because they realized that it's important to actually have sincere and legitimate dialogue with opinions that people don't agree about, even when they're rehensible and disgusting ideas. And it just blows my fucking mind that somehow we've gotten to this absolute reductionist culture where people are so fucking cucked and limp dick that they can't even shove it in the hole to get anything done anymore. It's fucking wild, but, you know, welcome to fucking 2025, guys. And I gotta pee and get a beer. So.
- [54:52]
Walker
Yeah, that's cool, man. I'm just gonna say that, you know, you're. You're right on track when the on the rant train case. And you know, you, you really, you're. You're bringing the heat right now. I'm, I'm into it. Go, go, go.
- [55:05]
Eric
I want to clarify for people. Like, I'm like, really happy in my life right now. Like, shit's like going really well for me. I'm not like an angry person. I just, I'm. I'm just really frustrated. Like, we have bitcoin. It's successful. The nation state can't stop us. Like, if you could actually think for yourselves instead of listening to these fucking pieces of shit on MSNBC who fucking hate you and want to make sure that you stay in the box. You could actually free yourself from this. Like, you could. The other one that blows my mind is because people have no understanding of this at all. And they're like, man, I'm poor, and I hate that. Like, the government's constantly stealing fucking money from me. Despite that I'm poor. And I have this, like, small business. It's like, hey, you could, like, accept Bitcoin and you could. You could not tell the government. Like, you don't have. You don't have to pay them. If you don't. You don't tell them. And you're using something like pay join. Like, you could. You could do that and you'd, like, save money. And they're like, but. But if. If we keep our. The government from stealing our money, like, who. Who will build the roads?
- [56:04]
Hodl
Who will steal our money?
- [56:06]
Eric
Who will steal our money?
- [56:07]
Hodl
Exactly, dude.
- [56:08]
Eric
All right, Another.
- [56:09]
Hodl
Another one speak. Speaking about stealing money and the system we're going into and what's coming is, Eric's right about the stable coins. You know, they're going to say it's not a cbdc, but it's going to be a cbdc. It's just going to be controlled by an oligarchy of, you know, bankers like Jamie Dimon. And there's also this. Now this new push. They've realized that, you know, you can expand US hegemony with stablecoins. Right? Right. But there's another thing I think everybody gets that. That's obvious. That's obvious.
- [56:41]
Eric
Is.
- [56:41]
Hodl
But there's another thing that you can do as well, which is you can. Okay, so every 10 years, give or take eight or nine years, global M2 expands by a 2x. Right. I think I. I'm. I'm pretty confident about this, that they're not going to be counting stablecoins in the global M2 metrics. So if you go forward with this proliferation of new stables and then you run the same, you know, M2 inflation rate that you're used to, you could actually see a world where.
- [57:15]
Eric
Over.
- [57:15]
Hodl
Let's. Let's imagine a world over the next 10 years where Bitcoin goes to, I don't know, $5 million or something like that. Like, it goes crazy high. And stablecoins proliferate broadly, and there's trillions of dollars of stablecoin usage out there in the broader world. Right. I think you might see a world in which global M2 has risen 2x, just like normal. And when you check in on it, you go, okay, everything seems to be as it usually is. But the stablecoin proliferation is like a surreptitious global M2 expansion that actually ran global M2 at something closer to like 10x or 5x. Right. And so I think that's the world that we're headed into here. And you know, again, it all comes, all the roads lead to Rome. Like it all comes back to bitcoin. And it's like, you know, the, the, the best thing that you can possibly do is to have bitcoin in order to protect yourself from what's coming. But these new tools the government has access to, like stablecoins are going to allow them to do things that are just straight up evil. And they're, you know, globe like inflation is, is global taxation without representation. Right? Because we're taxing every country and economy that's dol and we're taxing all euro dollar holders and we're taxing American dollar holders and basically everybody that has dollar exposure across the globe. And so this system that I'm describing is like, you know, extreme taxation without representation at a global level. And I think that we're going to see that happen. And so the best, again, the best way to protect yourself is to have bitcoin. But like, I don't think the average person knows what's about to befall them. And it goes back to this thing about like, I wish I could shake them awake, but I can't. And so maybe one of the best things to do is embed bitcoin in the public markets, which is happening. So I don't know, maybe they're going to be saved just by sheer dumb luck. You know, the market's sufficient, right? Like passive indexation always wins. Maybe they'll be saved by that. I don't know.
- [59:16]
Walker
Yeah, it's tricky, right, because like okay, the state. There's a lot to unpack there.
- [59:23]
Hodl
Hodl.
- [59:25]
Walker
Okay, where to start? First of all, one thing that I think is interesting, like casen to your earlier point about like, okay, if bitcoin's at whatever super high millions multimillion amount, then what is a million dollars worth, Et cetera, et cetera. I see that, but I think bitcoin also has so much of the existing present day denominated global wealth to cannibalize first before yeah, it may be true that later that when bitcoin's at, I don't know, 50 million a coin that like yeah, 50 million doesn't buy what it used to. But like also the, the market is different at that point. Right. But like right now it's like we still have what, 10x to go before we cannibalize gold, right? Like roughly, roughly 10x. Yeah. And so like, like that's, I feel like that's like a low bar. That's like a low bar for bitcoin. Recap. Is it 20x?
- [60:20]
Eric
I think it's 20x for gold and I think it's 200x for real estate.
- [60:24]
Walker
Okay. Either way, Bitcoin's like 2 trillion and we've got a thousand trillion in global wealth roughly. Right? So it's like we're so fucking early from that perspective that it's like, well yeah, this thing's got so much room to run just in the existing fiat denominated system. It's going to get obviously like they're going to debase like that we know that they're going to debase to your point, hodl. And like, you know, maybe having some passive exposure to like to MSTR or having IBIT that you're passively exposed to or whatever, you know, maybe it's Fidelity's Bitcoin ETF or whoever's Bitcoin etf that's going to be great for like the average person who still is going to ignore bitcoin for the next, ignore real spot bitcoin for the next 20 years still. Because they're just for whatever reason just not going to. Because you can lead a horse to water and you can beat it in the head repeatedly, but you can't make that stupid son of a bitch drink, right?
- [61:18]
Eric
But we're like, we're just speed running the entire development of finance from the 15th century in like 50 years. So like we're, we're just 10x accelerating everything. And so, so to me, like the, like, what, what Saylor seems to be the champion of and he's pioneering is like we're going to see the corporatization of Bitcoin and making synthetic financial products. And like the, the real winner is the person who actually figures out how do you create a global debt market that is based on Bitcoin, that truly actually has synthetic free interest rates that essentially you get a conglomeration of treasury companies that essentially set a bitcoin Libor kind of rate thing. And furthermore, how do you get all the things like repo markets and swaps and other things that are built on actual bitcoin standard and like that thing like once you have that, like now we can suck up the extra $200 trillion of like the global debt markets like into that and it's a relatively smooth transition. So, like, at the end of the day, like, everything's good for bitcoin. And so, like, yeah, like, a bunch of people are going to get absolutely hammer when it comes to being 6102 and, like, losing a ton of their money. But the hilarious thing is, like, the dudes who don't have that happen, like, their bitcoin is going to be worth so much more in addition to, like, they're going to be able to do a bunch of other shit with that. And very similar to like, like when, like when the Medici family essentially discovered, like, oh, like, we can do this like, double entry accounting thing and like, figure out, like, what the is going on and then, like, build debt around it. Like, it's just amounts of money that are so large that, like, you get to start getting people that are building things that are actually good for humanity because, like, they just have so much money that's sort of like the last thing that's left to do. And it's kind of interesting that, like, when people start getting really rich, like, it turns out that, like, you can, like, go play and, like, do all of the things that you want to. And if you're not just like an absolute travesty piece of shit human, you, like, do that for a little bit. And then you realize, like, oh, like, there's this giant hole in my heart where, like, I want to actually do something, like, reasonable, important for my children. So, like, I'm gonna go do that now because, like, I'm free to do that. And, like, people that don't, like, they will perpetually suck to infinity. And, like, that's just what they do. And the, the most interesting and ironic thing is, is because there's this value realignment that bitcoiners on a whole tend to have because of how and why they're investing in bitcoin. They seem to get that much more than other people. So, like, ultimately, again, everything's good for bitcoin. This, like, ultimately aligns with my own philosophical approach of that. Like, to me, all that bitcoin really is is, like, it's the fruition of philosophy and the entirety of history coming together. And, like, that's why cryptography is at the bottom of it. It's not because, like, we're like, nerds that, like fun math puzzles. Like, no, there's like, actually, like, a 20th century about communism where, like 100 million people are literally murdered for their property. So, like, it actually turns out that, like, owning property is Actually, like within the sphere and theater of war itself. And ergo, like, protecting your property with cryptography is really, really important because otherwise people will just murder you and take it as the 20th century told us.
- [64:34]
Hodl
Yep.
- [64:35]
Walker
Do you think we have to fight another world war, or are we already in the midst of another world war? Like, before we get to the end game? Like, is that a? N, is that a. Is that a necessary part of what, like, what happens next or to avoid that?
- [64:51]
Hodl
Marshall McLuhan, the father of information theory, said that World War III is a non stop guerrilla information war with no division or distinction between civilian and military participation. That is what we live in right now. It's happening. You're in World War Three. This is World War three, you know.
- [65:11]
Eric
Yeah, it's a, it's a very Clausewitzian thing. That's also like the, like, where's the delineation between politics and war at? And like, isn't politics just war by another means?
- [65:21]
Hodl
Right?
- [65:22]
Eric
And like, isn't that war something that's already being carried out and, like, isn't like it? Like, that's, that's essentially why and how we have this highly interdependent global system with like an Internet where like, we're all in different places, hundreds of miles away from each other, able to do this. And like, that in and of itself is a feature of this territory. And to me, like, this is one of the mind boggling things I keep coming back to is that like the Internet itself obviously is like, not apolitical in any way, shape or form, but because of the sort of informational hyper war that we live within, like, people can't seem to like, link the two together to be like, huh, like maybe this thing that like 6 billion people around the world are on and like, interact with every day and have more importance than the nation state itself. Like, maybe we could like use this thing to like make like a new form of the political, like capital T, capital P, like, very similar to the American ideology of like, hey, like, it turns out, like, maybe we should get to like vote on how and why, like our system of governance works. And like, maybe there should be strong parameters and delineations of like, how powerful the nation state could be. And that's one of the things I have like a massive boner about Noster and Bitcoin and all these things is that like, we're no longer asking for permission. We're just like building these tools that like, you fundamentally can't violate in any way. So, like, we can go say whatever the fuck we want on Noster. And like, you can't censor. Like, if I want to send money to like Palestinian dissidents right now, like, I can just fucking do that. Like, if, if I would like to like help smuggle people out of North Korea, I can like send the money off to the people in China to help me do that. And like, you can't fucking stop me. Oh, you don't like it? Like, too bad. Like, oh, you'd like a state of emergency to violate me. You can't. And like that. People have very little appreciation for how radically removed that is from contemporary politics.
- [67:13]
Walker
I, I have a quite question for both. Well, go ahead, because I'm gonna slightly diverge into a tangent of what Eric said.
- [67:20]
Hodl
I was just gonna say that lately I've been thinking a lot about the Gen Z political sphere. And the Gen Z political sphere, for those who don't keep track of it, is what I would describe as batshit insane. So the Gen Z's are either in this far right, sort of Nick Fuentes thing, anti Semitic, like old school racism, like, you know, this, this sort of direction, or they're in the opposite. Luigi Mangione is a saint. Communist populism. And there's, there's a growing desire for violence on both sides. And I think that the, the reasons for this are, you know, we could spend an entire podcast talking about them. But what's interesting from our perspective, I think as bitcoiners, is that bitcoin's going to do what it's going to do. It's going to go to millions of dollars a coin. We're going to be the capital of the new world order. And as the capital stack, we sit on a meta layer above the political stack and we get to pick and choose winners. So I think it's important to keep abreast of what's going on in the political sphere so that you can know what type of things you might want to back and what type of things you would like to steer clear of. Right. I think that's the thing that bitcoiners need to think about more and more right now. We're sort of single issue voters. Like, we came to the Donald Trump administration with just like, we like bitcoin. And then Donald Trump was like, you like bitcoin? Buy my shitcoin Trump coin, bitch. And we were like, okay, whatever. Like, that's fine, as long as we just leave us alone, please, for the love of God. And so, you know, but we're like, you ever see The Incredibles, where like the baby Jack, Jack has like incredible powers but he can't control them. We are a super powerful political baby where like we just rose up on this first, first go round and we were like, oh shit, we can just laser everybody in the room. Like everyone's dead now. We win, right?
- [69:39]
Eric
I think, I think these dead bodies.
- [69:41]
Hodl
Though, as we go, as we go forward, we're going to like be able to flesh out our full potential as a political entity on a global stage. And say, what is the global reordering, right? What does it actually look like? What's acceptable in the political economy, what's not, what are the types of projects we're gearing towards? What are we not gearing towards? And I'm not saying that we get to be like the sole arbiters of this sort of thing as some sort of robber barons of the new digital age. But I'm saying that bitcoin is a unique phenomenon in that it made a bunch of culture warriors rich. And we are people that care about the culture war and we actually care about the structure and shape of our society. And we found something that has a better structure. And it's like Eric was saying, the reason we have buy in or alignment with each other is because the how and why of why we came to bitcoin. Well, the how and why of why we all came to Bitcoin is the same thing. It's institutional betrayal. At some point or another, we trusted an institution and got totally ass reamed because of that choice. And that shared trust of betrayal and trauma is the thing that brought us all to Bitcoin. And so like, you know, essentially everybody under nobody under 40 believes in the mainstream political institutions anymore.
- [70:56]
Eric
Anymore.
- [70:56]
Hodl
Nobody believes in them, okay? And so that lets you know that they're going to fall. And like in a forest, when a tree falls, it's already dead. It just, it keeps its form and structure while it's in decay, right? So like some of these institutions have already died. They just haven't fully disintegrated into the ground yet. And so you have a bunch of people in the political economy who are, you know, racing to occupy the husk of the fallen tree so that they can inhabit the, they can inherit the ash pile and they can like parasitically pilot these old dead institutions. And the bitcoin ethos is, fuck that. Let's build the new institutions. Let's build the new world order, right? Like, I don't want access to your elite society. This isn't an elite Revolution, where I'm asking you to be part of your club. I don't want to be in your club. I'm never going to be in your fucking club. I wouldn't join any club that would have somebody like me as a member, okay? So, like, we have to build our own things. And these things have to work and be reorienting for a new global order that's going to emerge in, you know, the crypto world that we're building, right? And so, like, I think it's very important that you remember that and you think about that as a bitcoiner and a capital allocator. Because Eric's right. Like the bitcoin story is going to go boom, rocket ship, blockfi rocket ship. It's going straight up and to the right, okay? And you know, all your dreams are going to come true. And then what? And then what? What the fuck are you going to do after you have a Lambo and a mansion? What do you do next? Spend a lot more time thinking about that. Because Lambos and mansions come and go and by the way, like, they're nothing. It's all nothing. It just means nothing. Like, you're flying first class, you're drinking champagne, you're in a Lamborghini. It means fucking nothing. There's no difference between drinking high lives and sitting in the back of a Camry and flying southwest. It doesn't matter. None of that shit matters. The thing that matters is the world we build, the world we leave behind. Bitcoin's a thousand year system. We are going to be. We're the new capital allocators of that world. And we're going to be leaving large amounts of bitcoin and hopefully new ideas and new systems to the people that come after us.
- [73:07]
Eric
To me, like, it's not even like a cultural. It's like culture and technology are like dynamically feeding back into each other in a, like a symbiotic relationship. Because, like, we're. The culture that we've got is explicitly because of the technology. And same thing with the form of politics that will create. It's explicitly because of technology. And like, that to me, this is why. This is all like part of a general chain of the historicity of man and like the true history as it was. Because, like, it turns out that, like, we created this nation state thing that is part of human history. And it turns out that like, the way that the forms of legalism works is like, explicitly through violence and the way that it's untethered itself since the. Since the end of World War II is that like, now it's this gigantic maniacal thing that believes it owns all people, everything, everywhere, forever. And the simple standpoint of saying, like, yo, like, I don't want to participate in that, like the thing, like lasers in on you, like, oh, like, you're like an enemy of me, like, I must destroy you because, like, I can't have power over you. And it turns out that like, that function inherently breaks in the digital paradigm where we have cryptography. Like, you, you, you can't do anything about it. Like, if I've encrypted something, like, you can't like, be like, well, state of emergency, like, backdoor exception, Haha. Like, doesn't work that way. It's just a feature of how fucking math works. And I think because of the way that we've came to understand that and what cypherpunkism is, is like getting culturally that, like, that's part of the world paradigm that we have, you know. And so I think as this continues to develop, like, because more and more people seem to understand that and get it, and like, having watched this happen for more than a decade, it's been really interesting to like, in the beginning it's like, oh, like, I'm like a insane person and I meet somebody like Jesse and I'm like, oh, like another insane person. Like, whoa. And now it's like, hey, now there's like eight of us and 16 and 32. Like, now there's a fuck ton of us and we all sort of get the same thing and we also get the same pathway. But even more importantly, is that like, that contrasted against the dark nihilism of like, what it means to be a slave in fiat society versus, like, we have a form of empowerment? Like, I, I no longer want to tell you what, what to do. Like, I want to welcome you into freedom and liberation. And that speaks to people in a radically different way than anything else. And I honestly think, like, the greatest challenge that's going to come about is just getting people to actually do the work and think for themselves, which I don't think we'll ever win. Like, I think we'll always be a minority. And that's one of the reasons that like, I've had people very pedantically push me. They're like, you have to do as much as you can to educate the masses about this as possible. And I, and I always go back to being like, look, there's like tons of people like Walker who do a really great job with that. Like, that's not my, like, my shtick is, is for the people that are already deeper is to like shove them deeper into that and have them get that like, it's not just number go up. It's not just getting rich. It's not just implementing these new forms that like make people freer and give us like libertarianism. It's like this is about exploding the entire paradigm that we would call politics and borders and nation states to like implement something radically different and new. In the same way that like in the 1730s, if you're like, hey, like maybe this king is. And like, maybe we should all like, figure out a new way to like create politics, people be like, what the are you talking about? Like, how would that even work in any meaningful sense? But like, this is where we're at. And yeah, like today versus maybe 10 years ago, like, I feel so much more compelled and inspired that like, we are going to win. The big question now is on what time span is that going to be? Who are going to be the people that implement it and how is this going to manifest itself? Yeah.
- [77:02]
Walker
I want to ask you guys. So this feeds into what both of you had said earlier, but just thinking of this idea of what is the structure that is to come and what part do bitcoiners play at play in it as these new capital allocators with a great amount of economic energy and like a completely different set of priorities and a completely different worldview than the pre existing structure creators. Like, do you. I'm curious maybe case in first, if like some of what you were describing earlier is like, kind of similar to like Balaji's thesis of like the network state, but also like the network state is basically just plagiarizing Snow Crash. Neal Stephenson's not like it is like that. You're just describing like Balaji's all the respect, but he's just describing Snow Crash. Like that's.
- [77:53]
Eric
I like Balaji a lot. Like, I haven't found anything extraordinarily original. I found high amounts of that exact same thing.
- [78:00]
Walker
It's. So I guess my question is, do we go towards a snow crash future? But it's like a little bit less dystopian than Snow Crash or like, how do you actually see that shaking out? Like, is there kind of the disintegration of the nation state as it exists today and a fragmentation into very, very small nation states and corporate state as a service providers? Or how do you actually see what does that actually look like? Or does the existing paradigm just kind of Continue and continue and continue. And just like, we kind of just kick that can down the road. Despite bitcoin existing, despite the fragmentation that we see.
- [78:39]
Eric
I mean, again, it's like, all timescale. So, like, I definitely think that, like, the. The nation state as an entity on a whole is dead because of the way that, like, it fundamentally relies on fiat. And, like, fiat is also fundamentally dead because of how that functions. So, like, there's like, a number of different possibilities that we have. And I actually think, like, the one that's going to be the most interesting is, like, I'm. I'm a big fan of, like, the great man of history thesis of that. Like, I think somebody will actually rise up at some point in time and realize that, like, attaching ourselves to bitcoin as this thing that we can use to essentially ram a new form of the political down the throats of everybody else. And like, you, you don't have to agree with it. And again, like, this is where we start getting into my weird fourth political theory stuff of that, like, I. And again, like, returning to, like, at the deepest level, like, I think bitcoin's totally a form of communism. I think it's just like that form of communism is legitimate insofar that, like, it's the deepest form of scientific, social that there is. And that, like, bitcoin is the form of, ie, socialism that we've chosen of that, like, we've just chosen the social sciences that, like, we should use cryptography and game theory and all this technology in order to implement what we believe is the most fair and just and magnum magnanimous society for man. We're just doing it with this other thing. And this goes into a political theory of that, like, communism and anarchism were like a single movement up until Marx presented the Communist Manifesto and the idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat. And Bakun was like, yo, like, the nation state. Like, like the state's the thing that we can't use. Like, go yourself. And Marx was like, fine, we'll, like, use the state and, like, we'll make communism. Because also to be clear, the idea of communism is a stateless society. Like, it's not to get some gigantic rogue thing that has power over everything. It's to make sure that there is no more classes. And like, bitcoin, literally, because of how it anonymizes everything vis a vis cryptography, it literally makes a classless structure. So, like, I actually think that, like, that's really important. And also, like, it drives me Fucking crazy that no liberals have actually attached onto this and, like, done an applied, thoughtful thing with Marxism. Me and Ben Arc have had a great. Some really great conversations about, like, how we should just like, spend a month diving in to like, do a Marxist analysis of Bitcoin to essentially explain how it implements communism vis a vis an anarchist lens. But that's like a bunch of work and effort that, like, I'm not necessarily interested in. Like, I like the shtick that I'm on right now.
- [81:10]
Walker
It's a good.
- [81:10]
Eric
Yeah, and also, like, that's why we're building sort of what we are at Vora is because, like, we. We believe that the only way to get to this place is to, like, actually have like, your, like, your revolution in a box that, like, is this sovereign server that, like, has all these cryptographic primers that can't be broken. Whether or not that works, I don't know. But also, like, in this grand paradigm, I still think America is like, the winner that takes all. But I think the difference is, is that, like, we need some sort of radical and I think we call a third party. But like, again, I return to the Article 5 argument of that, like, we need to essentially use states to fuck up the federal government and like, change the constitution with Article 5. And then we get a totally different political structure that can actually serve a revolutionary agenda around the world because most nation state entities have a larger federal thing with states underneath it. And so if you can radicalize states to fight their own federal government and then create a solidarity that happens horizontally, globally, like, now we're cooking with gas and we got some. Some fun in the line.
- [82:15]
Walker
And I. We need to. We need to have another podcast where we just do a deconstruction of. Of we. Well, you know, we do.
- [82:23]
Eric
We.
- [82:23]
Walker
We try real communism this time. We try real communism with Bitcoin this. Because this time real communism might work. Not, perhaps not Marxist communism, but.
- [82:33]
Eric
Yeah, well, anarcho communism.
- [82:36]
Walker
Yes, yes. And. And you know, just so you know, earlier when I said that communists were just as bad or worse than Nazis, I wasn't talking about you, Cason. I just want you.
- [82:46]
Eric
That's fine. Like, I. What, like communism. Communists are just as evil as Nazis because, like, both of them are. Because same thing like national socialism as the Nazis imagined it, like, is not a functional political system.
- [83:01]
Hodl
Right?
- [83:02]
Eric
Like, these are all just like a bunch of fancy words that we use to, like, give a specific class of people power to, like, murder and hurt other people. Turns out that, like, with cryptography, one, because it's digital. Two, because of how it anonymizes things, and three, because of the protections that it gives. Like, it, it's like non functional in that theater. And so again, this is one of the things I've been working on is with the fourth political theory, because, like, to be clear, like, the current global war world order that we exist within is all neoliberal. Like, whether it's North Korea or China or Iran or the United States, like, it's all part of a giant neoliberal world order. And it's really important to understand, like neoliberalism is what liberalism want. Like, have stated it is, but it's inherently a lie. It's like telling you that because it's just like a thieving, maniacal, individualistic thing where you have like a collection of selfish people that all just want to make money and that's the final objective. And like it's impossible for it ever to tell the truth because, like, that's the thing that it's incapable of. Like, it can't tell truth. Like that. That's a sort of linchpin. And so that means that like, if all prior political theories are dead, let's like pick and choose what we like from all of them. Which to me, that's part of bitcoin is that like it's taking the most extreme parts of communism, the most extreme parts of fascism, and synthesizes them in order to make the most extreme form of liberalism that's ever existed. And that like all of these things amalgamated together, like, is essentially bitcoin in the exact same way, like, bitcoin is anarcho capitalism, which like, that was like a misnomer and like contradictory. Up until the existence of bitcoin, there was no way to have a money that was not tied to the nation state before bitcoin. It's just what Satoshi created was so incredible, innovative and original that like, it actualized that which to me, this is also what unwinds and unpacks the entire historicity of man, its relationship to war, violence and the law. And how what bitcoin is like essentially ends all of those things at once.
- [85:09]
Walker
Fuck yeah, man. Has real capitalism ever been tried?
- [85:15]
Hodl
Long time ago. Long time ago, yeah.
- [85:17]
Eric
And like it, it, it's very different because like the moment that we had the implementation of the nation state itself, like that sort of ended. And so like, that's again why crypto sovereignty sort of starts with a reading of Hobbes is because Hobbes was really representative of like the first implementation of what we could call statism. And it's not to say that like monarchism had a strange relationship to it. But it was only once gold got fully appropriated as this object that was been backed by fiat monies. And like that was tried a bunch of times in history. And like, like I'm, I'm sure you're aware of like when the Chinese tried it in the 12th century. Yeah. Like essentially they're like, like tried to make fiat money. It totally failed. And then even more interesting is that like after it failed they're like, oh, the most brutal and barbaric sort of forms of torture need to be carried out on anybody that issues paper money. It was stuff like we gotta crush their balls and rip their fingers off and like rip their eyes out. And it was like not friendly.
- [86:14]
Hodl
Yeah, moderate even.
- [86:16]
Walker
Truly, you know, they were, I think they were running the money there now. Man, it's gonna be really fascinating to kind of see. Like I feel like we're at this really like I'm very grateful to be alive at this moment in space and time because it feels like it's somewhat surreal. Like it's also not. It's very real. Like I'm pretty sure, like, you know, this all feels pretty real. But like it's genuinely wild that we get to be here to witness this transition. And I can't imagine how dark and depressing things would be if bitcoin didn't exist because I don't know that I would have a lot of hope for what comes next. And I think things are going to get really, really messed up. And I've said this before and eventually I'll formalize it into a nice thesis that I'll write in a piece and I'll publish on Substack. But until then I'll just spout it. But I think we're at this. We have this moment of cyclical convergence that is made all the more ferocious by bitcoin. So we've got obviously the fourth turning. Everybody knows about the fourth turning and that's supposed to be happening. The end of that turning is in the 2030 range. But you've also got the. I don't know if you're familiar with the kondrative waves or contrative cycles. The Russians killed him because he basically showed that. Well it turns out capitalism just kind of does this free market thing and then it works and it actually works out better than communism and state controlled economies. And so they killed him and then his theories emerged later. And then we've also got like you know, the long term debt cycles that Ray Dalio talks about and then you've got like the fiat currency cycles and you've got, you know, we can get into like solar cycles as well here if you want to get, you know, in tectonic cycles there's like all. It feels like there is and then there's so many.
- [88:03]
Hodl
The singularity is near, rapidly approaching while we cycle. Mayan calendar did the world end in 2012? Like, did it? It might have, yeah.
- [88:16]
Walker
I don't know.
- [88:16]
Eric
Maybe what happened in 2012 is Bitcoin actually achieved full decentralization and it couldn't be stopped.
- [88:23]
Hodl
There you go. That was when Max Kaiser said it became Sentient at Block 300,000. So that would probably line up. We should check. Somebody should.
- [88:34]
Walker
How dark do you think things get in the near term versus like, I think we're all the opinion that things will get better in the long term. How dark do you think things get? Not to be a downer, but like, how dark?
- [88:45]
Hodl
I'll take, I'll take this one. So I mean my heuristic here for a while and still has been that both political sides in America are in what I call the race to Hitler. Right. And you know, essentially that you have to do a Hitler because you think the other side is going to do a Hitler. So you got to put in your own Hitler before they do a Hitler. Right. And that's sort of where we're at. And when you look at like.
- [89:11]
Walker
A.
- [89:11]
Hodl
Lot of the extreme political beliefs coming out of younger people, people are in a win or die predicament. That's how extreme the politics have gotten. So it's not this sort of thing where, you know, oh yeah, well, you know, Bob's a Democrat, but he's a good guy. We have Bruce, you know, every now and then, whatever. It's not like that anymore. Like there's this thin veneer of trade keeping our civilization together. So the economy is the only thing keeping us together. Democrats and Republicans are living in entirely different spheres where they actually despise each other and believe that the other one has nothing but mal intent in their heart for them and their country. Right? And so when the thin veneer of trade goes away, when there is some sort of a crisis, monetary crisis, I don't think we're in for anything good. I think we're in for, you know, a Caesar. I think we're in for a Hitler, I think we're in for a Stalin. I don't know what the flavoring of authoritarianship is. Or totalitarianism is. But I think we get an American totalitarian now. The benevolent version is a Caesar and you know, the malevolent versions are Stalin or Hitler or whatever. But like, it seems that fascism, communism in some form is desperate to be tried in America and that younger people don't believe in the political systems or the institutions that they're being left and so they're going to jettison them. And in many cases, like I said, they're already dead. So this idea of like, what comes next? American fascism or American anarchy, I think you get both potentially simultaneously. And the winning move, if you're, you know, an American, is sort of to make it through, make it through relatively unscathed. Like, you won't be able to turn the, the volume to zero, but maybe you can turn it to five if you, you know, guard your time, attention, energy well and are in a physical space that allows you to do so. Meaning you got to move to Montana and turn off your phone. Like that's the simple version of the story. So listen, I don't want to prognosticate any of this. Like these are things I don't want to say. These are things I think and think. I don't want to say these out loud. But I'm saying them out loud because maybe somebody can hear them and figure out like, ah, shit, Hodl might actually be right and this might actually happen and I should actually take steps to protect myself from what's coming because it just doesn't seem like anything good is coming. Man, when you talk about all the cycles unfolding, I mean, the debt cycle that Ray Dalio talks about is a big one. We are in the unwind of the debt cycle. And in the unwind of the debt cycle, politics gets hyper partisan and then people do violence against each other. That's what happens. So long term, medium long term. Eric's idea of what I'm going to call the Mr. Potato Head political economy, where we take a little piece of communism and a little piece of fascism and a little piece of anarchism and we stick them all together on a potato head that looks like Greg Zag. Shout out Greg Zag. I think that is preferred and that is the world that we should strive to create as Bitcoiners, where we don't join the chaos. It's like back to the thing I was talking about, about us being capital allocators, like, do your best not to join in on the chaos of the day. Do your best to make it through unscathed and to be Able to pick up the pieces, you know, when everything is ready to be rebuilt. Like, we're not really in a rebuilding time. We're kind of in a time where people are tearing things down, but there will be, you know, we will come out on the other side. Like, the world never ends. Every generation thinks the world is going to end because they're going to die. The boomers think that. Now, when you talk to boomers, you get a lot of doomerism coming out of them because their lives are ending 10, 15 years from now. The world is over for them. Like, it all goes black. And then, you know, you probably go to hell. Most of you. I'm just kidding. Like, it's not. It's. It's. I fucking hate you boomers anyway. It's nothing. Nothing. Nothing is permanent. Everything is temporary. Everything is cyclical. Everything transforms. And like Eric said, the neoliberal world order, which basically is a cover story for the largest theft ever known to mankind, they're stealing from every human being on earth. Every time they hit the print button on the Fiat Central bank computer, that is coming to an end because people just simply can't stand it anymore. It has reached its inevitable conclusion, or it's very near its inevitable end state. And I just don't think it's going to go on for that much longer, you know, especially once the boomers are gone, because they're the only ones who are deeply in love with it. Everybody else is like, bucket. Who needs it?
- [94:14]
Walker
You know, I forgot cycle guys. I just have to say also, Polybius is an. We're nearing the olocracy stage, which is a fancy word for mob rule, which comes after democracy. So sorry, I just. I needed to throw case and go ahead, but I needed to throw the other cycle in there that I forgot. Shout out to Polybius. You've been dead for a few thousand years, but you're a homie.
- [94:36]
Eric
Good, good homie. I mean, there's like, a few distinct outcomes that we get. One is like, essentially, like extreme right wingism, which, like, manifests as like, a form of Nazism and like, reactionary Hitlerism, which, like, there's. There's like a. A pretty good opportunity for that same thing. Like, we can have highly reactionary left wingism. I remember, like, a decade ago when I was, like, tripping my face off at Burning Man. I had this, like, whole vision of, like, a form of essentially, like, youth communism, where it's like, essentially, like, everyone under 30 gets to, like, select a house they want and just, like, kill the boomers that are in that, like, totally legitimate. Like, you just get to murder those people and take their. Yeah. Like, them. Like, they contribute to the fact that you don't get a home. So pick the one out you like and kill the family that lives there. Like, totally kosher. Red Guard's gonna protect you. It's great. So, like, those are two extremely dark outcomes. Another one is like, we get what we have today right now, but essentially, like, the elites that are, like, part of. And it's kind of interesting because, like, in this, there's, like, a very interesting sort of civil war that's going on between, like, teal Palantir network and, like, some of, like. And it's like the new tech money versus, like, the old, like, inflationary oligopolism money. So, like, they're in their own little war. Teal palantiranism. Like, like, wins that war if they do that. Or there's actually, like, a third way that can be like a. Like a pretty interesting, like, middle of the road, orange party bitcoiner thing. But it means, like, we have to actually get our shit together, organize in a meaningful way. I don't know if I want to do that. That's, like, a lot of time and effort and energy, and there's, like, a lot.
- [96:19]
Walker
You guys would have to run. You're top of the ticket. Come on.
- [96:22]
Eric
Well, it's not even running. It's like, it's like, maybe doing that as, like, a lampoony kind of thing, but it's actually, like, building out, like, a new political movement that's like, look, like, owning bitcoin is politics now. Like, when. Yeah, like, one of the things I love doing in San Francisco is when people are like, oh, like, how do you vote? I'm like, I don't vote. Like, you actually believe that makes a difference, but, like, like, how could you not vote? I'm like, please tell me who I vote for that doesn't murder the brown people. Like, please tell me, like, is it, like, neither the blue or red people won't kill the brown people? Like, I thought you were liberal and, like, gave a shit about the brown people. But, like, you elect people that murder the brown people too. Like, oh, my God. And they're like, well, don't you care about climate change? And I'm like, well, yeah. And, like, that's explicitly why I won't vote is because neither of them, like, end the US War machine, which, like, contributes the most to carbon in the world and, like, is creating greatest amount of climate change. Like, don't you love the environment? So, like, why are you voting for people that continue to give money to the war machine? That's really weird. I thought you cared about people, huh?
- [97:24]
Hodl
Called the petrol dollar, Petra. It's right there in the name.
- [97:29]
Eric
See, like, come on, guys, you got to get this. I'm afraid the truth is that, like, bitcoiners actually have to get our shit together and like, do that because I don't see there being any other class and the other thing that's way more important that like, I always try to point out to people that is like very inflammatory and they don't, like, is that like, I am inherently freer than like, you are because, like, I don't rely on my bank account for money. And you do. Like, ergo, like, there's somebody that can be like, you can't have your money now and there isn't somebody that does that to me. So, like, I can say inflammatory stuff that like, Donald Trump has obviously raped children on Epstein island, which is why the Epstein files weren't released. Because, like, he likes to fuck underage girls. Like, that's true. And like, to be fair though, he's just maintaining political tradition of the presidency, you know, like, we all know going all the way back to Clinton that like, if you're going to be president, United States, you have to rape underage children. Like, that's just part of the game. Sorry, guys, this is, this is getting.
- [98:27]
Walker
Banned from YouTube so fast.
- [98:30]
Eric
That's always cool.
- [98:31]
Walker
I know.
- [98:33]
Eric
You know, and like, that's always why I come back to people being like, look, like, I'm sorry that you thought Trump was the Messiah. Like, if the size raping little children, I'm not sure how much I want to be saved by them. But that's, that's something we should think about. Same thing though.
- [98:46]
Walker
Like, there's my poll quote right there.
- [98:48]
Eric
For the episode, you know, that's going to be great. So like, it's really kind of a question for us. And like, again, like, bitcoiners are sort of the reigning champions irregardless of the 21st century, which also, it's kind of ironic that's the 21st century where we have these 21 million bitcoins that sort of determine an outcome. I don't know, weird stuff. But with that being said, like I him and ha about a lot, it seems like it'd be pretty great. Like I gotta have like a good crew of people around me that are like, encouraging me and like wanting all of this success and Like, I do really want it too. It's just like, it's a lot of effort and time and sacrifice and, like, there's like a lot of personal focus that comes in on it that, like, I'm not sure I'm prepared for.
- [99:32]
Walker
Are we talking about YouTube being pre, like, running on the same ticket? Is that we're talking about still?
- [99:36]
Eric
Let's.
- [99:36]
Walker
Because about both of you guys is neither of you are on Epstein's list. And I know that, like, with certainty. I don't know that about.
- [99:43]
Hodl
I do. I did go to that party at Michael Saylor's house, though. So who knows what list? Yeah, one might be. I don't. But listen, bro, it was a nice party. I don't want to run for president, but I will, okay? Don't fucking make me do it. Don't make me do it.
- [99:58]
Walker
I know, I know you both will.
- [100:00]
Hodl
I have this very, like, George Washington esque sense where, like, if the people demanded I would be president, then I would just be like, well, now I have to be president, you know, like, fucking I don't want to be. But, like, I would do it if demanded.
- [100:13]
Eric
You know, I can handle a John Adams kind of roll. I'm okay with that. I mean, like, the. The thing that kind of sucks that the truth is, is that like, and this is one of the ones that hurts the most is like, our parents completely fucking betrayed us, top to bottom. It's one of the reasons we can't have conversations with them about this because, like, the truth is that they're 100% to blame for all the bad shit that happened. They constantly try to be like, what was I? Like, what you're supposed to do is you're supposed to say fucking no. Like, you were actually supposed to continue to resist. And, like. But we protested in 78 at the Democratic Convention. It's like, great. Like, now you pick up arms and you actually have a full on rebellion. Like, I'm sorry, it's like not a nice answer, but, like, that's what you were supposed to do. But you know what you did instead? You took the money and you decided that you were gonna get a house at a cheap rate and buy it up and watch everything inflate to high heaven and play this game. And yeah, it's just. It's really sad and painful, but I think that that's part of the political concourse that we're in is like, I'm pretty sure in 1762, people were like, hey, the king's totally us. Like, we're supposed to have representation when we're taxed. And like, they don't even give us a representative in Parliament. Like, what are we supposed to do? Like, we love the King, we want to be part of the British Empire, but like, we also don't want to get taxed out of wazoo because, like, can you believe it? They're trying to take 3%, 3 goddamn percent of the tea that we're drinking. Those mother fucking pieces of shit are stealing 3% of our income. Meanwhile, like, we're like lubing up our here that we can get two fifths in. We're like 45%, baby. Like, let's go.
- [101:56]
Walker
It's in. It's genuinely insane. Like, it's actually nuts when you think about. It's like, so I work like basically 50% of my time. Like essentially, essentially half my. Let's roll all the taxes in together. Right? Basically 50% of my life's blood. My blood, sweat and tears. My energy just goes right to the government. Who does what with it? Builds. Builds roads. Live in Illinois. Like, you ever driven on the roads in Illinois? You ever driven the roads in Chicago? They're like, they're very bad. They're just always potholes, like everywhere, always non stop. It is insane.
- [102:39]
Eric
It's like roads from the Roman Empire that like still exists, but like, it's usually within three years that we have to like repave the asphalt. So like, even if the government is building roads, they're like really, really, really bad at it. Which is like another heuristic we should probably discuss. But at the end of the day, like, the sad truth is, is that like, yeah, like the money isn't going to the road. It's like going to like, like help murder brown people and like, choose your jurisdiction. Like, there's totally white people that are murdered too by our weapons.
- [103:12]
Walker
Like, sure, it turns out that we're equal opportunities in Russia.
- [103:15]
Eric
Destroyers of humans.
- [103:16]
Walker
Yeah.
- [103:17]
Eric
Yeah, we really were equal. Equal opportunity murderers.
- [103:21]
Walker
It's. It's not like dei, you know, like our bomb. Our bombs. Don't, don't. Our problems are colorblind, really. Like, they'll just, they'll. They'll blow you up no matter what.
- [103:31]
Eric
Yeah. Whoever's gonna make money from it, it's okay. And like, the honest truth is like, I don't know how a sincere dialogue happens like this. But I also know like, the only. Because like, Elon Musk had his whole thing for a while. Like, we're gonna do the America party. But like, let's be fair, like, he's part of this network in various ways and capacities, whether or not he likes it. And at the end of the day, like it has to be a grassroots movement, it has to be bitcoiners, because unless the relationship between state money is like there can't be a fundamental political change. And like fiat is the true communism of the 20th century. Like that's why it's a global thing. That's why it's happened everywhere. That's why every single fucking military on the planet is literally financed through these fiat means. Like there, there's like nowhere on earth where people are like, yeah, yeah, like let's, let's give 30% of our GDP to the, to the military. Like yeah, that's a great idea. Like nowhere. Did anybody ever make that agreement? Which also like, that's the really beautiful thing in my opinion is that like what we're talking about isn't batshit crazy stuff. Like in fact like 90 of humanity is in total agreement with us and now we have this great thing called the Internet and we have this great way to communicate called Noster, where like we can do that in a censorship resistant way that like there's an actual possibility that we could save the world from the global panopticon and totalitarianism that's coming. But that's going to demand a lot of effort and sacrifice in a way that's different. And to be clear, George Washington, who's obviously the greatest man who ever lived, which was validated by the most powerful man who ever lived at the time, King George iii. Like he made massive sacrifices where like he, he lost his only child, he lost his farm, he lost most of his fortune, like there was a lot of really bad that happened to George Washington and he still made it happen. And for any out there who's like, well, George Washington. No, like George Washington pretty much single handedly decided that the American Revolution was going to happen. And like read into like how Valley Forge played out and like why he was such an essential piece to like making sure that the entire continental army didn't collapse. But with that being said, like I think there's an opportunity, I'd like to participate in it. I have trepidations and hesitations about it because you know, like, like murdering me and for that reason would be like a pretty good idea. But anyways it like we only got one life to live, right? So we're gonna die anyway.
- [105:56]
Hodl
We're gonna die also, like the contemplation.
- [105:58]
Eric
Of that death is important and it would be pretty badass if in like 2040, yeah, even like the 25th century, like my great, great, great, great grandkids were like still riding on the coattails of like the case and family name being super corrupt douchebags that were all needed to get their heads chopped off and our lineage.
- [106:15]
Hodl
But like it is, it is an.
- [106:17]
Eric
Interesting 30 generation run. It wasn't so bad.
- [106:20]
Hodl
I've thought about this before that if you were to run for president, you know, or really any high political office, you, you actually, in order to do it correctly, have to be willing to die. It's the only way that you can do it correctly. If you're not willing to die, you're going to be corrupted and co opted almost immediately. First day, right? First hour, first minute. So it's only somebody who does have the courage to step in and say, I will risk my own life, I will gamble with my life in order to save. And I guess that's probably where the great man theory of history comes from, is that it's very rare that an individual decides to gamble with their life for the collective, you know, it's very rare, right? It happens occasionally, but not that often.
- [107:15]
Walker
Man. It's wild too that George Washington was like, after all that sacrifice and then after emerging victorious and could have very well easily been like, yeah, I'll just, maybe I'll just take a few extra terms. He's just like, nah, now, now my time's done like that in my mind, like that's what cements him right as like a truly like the ability to step away. But then it's like also like, boy, in the modern context, it's like, maybe you don't want to step away. Like I don't, I've, I don't even know.
- [107:49]
Hodl
There was a, there was an American.
- [107:51]
Walker
I don't even know if I'm gonna get into this next part. So you, you do it as you can say.
- [107:58]
Hodl
There was an American painter in London. I can't remember his name, but you know, he was painting in the palace and King George asked him what George Washington would do after the war was over, now that the war was concluding. And the painter, the painter said, I'm hearing, you know, tale that he'll go home to his farm and you know, tend to his affairs there. And King George said if he does that, he will become the greatest person in history. And then he did it, you know, so fucking badass, Sam.
- [108:33]
Eric
I mean, like, I think, I think the truth is, is that like men of dignity and courage, like understand like that that's like the thing that you do to like achieve that. And like I think it's really interesting, like they're in contemporary dialogue. The idea of what glory is, is completely extinct. Like there, there's no conversation whatsoever about doing something glorious and like it. It's like a very weird terminology to bring up, but it's really interesting that it actually does still exist. And like, like people who are trying to like beat extreme sports records or other things, they're like truly entering into like doing a glorious thing in order to like make that level of achievement, but it's not discussed in that way. And so like glory is actually this very real feature that also like, like if you like it's really interesting if you actually read about the American Revolution, the people who participated in it and also pretty much all wars before the 20th century, like glory was actually a primary component of their motivation for the engagement in it. And that's just like not even anywhere in the dialogue.
- [109:38]
Hodl
Now there are only three reasons for war really is it's. Or you know, in, in antiquity and it's God, gold or glory or some combination of, of of all three. Right. And that. And now in a fiat forever war context that's been completely lost.
- [109:53]
Eric
Well, it's funny, I, I have like another essay or book or whatever you want to call that, I've worked on it that like essentially since the Civil War, that like war itself is this thing that is unrelational to classic war that like it. It's just like a module of murder for money, but also like it's something that is self perpetuating and that like that's the only feature it has and that like there is no winning at all. And Hannah Ardenne has this really interesting essay where she talks about like the like what the nuclear age implemented was this idea of like the, the total eradication of all people within a certain sphere and like it can't ever be occupied again for hundreds of years. Like that's a very specialized form of insanity that like the. There's no winning at all in that it's just something different. And this also goes to the heuristics of like what the Vietnam War was. Is that like because of the way that the partisan and the general population blended into each other. Like we didn't have a heuristic of like if we were winning or not other than just like pure body count, which like obviously is something that is unrelational to war on a whole, but it goes to speak to like literally like what we're in now is like when we speak about infinite wars, like it's not actually even relational to war. It's just like this gigantic like murderous thing of like literally like bodies for money, which is like a pretty sickening thing on a whole. And again to be clear, like that's the fundamental substrate of like how the global war world order works. And it's funny because like I feel a lot of pity for liberals because like I, I feel like their heart is in the right place and they want the right thing. But like they're, they're a little bit like the Tin man or like the. Is the Scarecrow or the Tin Man? The one without a brain but a heart. Like they have the heart but not the brain.
- [111:40]
Hodl
Yeah, the.
- [111:41]
Walker
Wait, the, the Scarecrow has no brain, the Tin man has no heart. Right. Yeah.
- [111:45]
Eric
Right. Okay.
- [111:46]
Walker
Yeah.
- [111:47]
Eric
So yeah, like the, that kind of makes sense because the Tin Man's like a soldier. Okay. Anyways, like that like I like where their heart is but they're not thinking at all about it. And like that's the thing I really love glitching liberals out on is like, like, like I feel you like, like people like brown people shouldn't be murdered. But like let's, let's observe the heuristics of like how that is happening and like let's be clear that like it's because we have this giant war machine that's financed explicitly by like you paying taxes and like being like a good, a good little citizen that's like going to do that and like is willing to be like oh like now that my blue people were elected and like they are going to give us some sort of social program here that like that is now appropriate it. So yeah, like I hope there's like some great plebarian out there who's like I'm gonna build the Orange Party and like run with this like wholehearted to you totally support if you want to like rope our asses in somehow you can. But like you're, you're probably gonna have to be like a self sovereign bitcoiner in some way because also like I think that's the, I think that's the lower bound threshold is that like you have to be self sovereign with your wealth through bitcoin to do this because like to be clear, like, like once any traction happens at all, like the powers that people freak out and like ending your bank account is the first thing. Like isn't that what they did to the Fuentes? They like ended his bank account so they made banks all the great.
- [113:08]
Hodl
All the gripers, all his followers got debanked. Kanye got debanks, you know?
- [113:14]
Eric
Yeah. And it's wild to me that, like, these things happen and people, like, couldn't happen to me. It's like. Like. Like it happened to anybody. Yeah. Like, why don't you just, like, think for yourself?
- [113:28]
Hodl
By the way, I debanked. I debanked myself because there's fucking no money in the bank account.
- [113:35]
Eric
My wife, job. My wife.
- [113:38]
Hodl
My wife keeps being like, do we really have to. I. I've had the card gets declined like, two or three times a month. I'm like, babe, that's just the way we're living, okay? It's opportunity cost, babe. All right? You gotta understand, babe, we can't keep a lot of infiat. Babe. Can't keep it alive, babe. We're in a bull market, babe. You know, it's all that.
- [113:53]
Walker
Do you still stack as psychopathically as you once did? Have you ever stopped stacking psychopathically?
- [113:59]
Hodl
Well, it made it. No. I mean, yes. I don't stack psychopathically anymore. I had to go further out on the risk curve in order to try and make more bitcoin. And so the way I stack these days is in bitcoin startups, which are fucking ridiculous. Eric knows they're ridiculously risky. And then, you know, in trying to do treasury company trades and things of that nature, which is, you know, are ridiculously risky. And so I've had to go much further out on the risk curve in order to try and meaningfully increase my bitcoin position. And after four years of doing this, I can say that I have outperformed bitcoin. I did the math. I did a calculation on this recently by 15%, which is not. No, it's not very much.
- [114:46]
Eric
Yeah, it's not a good thing. Yeah, it's not worth. It wasn't effort.
- [114:51]
Walker
He could have just outperformed bitcoin. My point is that you did it at all. Like, what else are you gonna do?
- [114:56]
Hodl
Dude, dude, listen, I. I'm a. I'm a privileged insider who knows everybody in bitcoin who has access to the. The deals and blah, blah, blah. And I was able to do 15. It's not worth it. It's not worth it.
- [115:10]
Eric
Like, it's funny, this happens to me late at night sometimes where I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I have to. I have to have to, like, set up my Trust and my 401k and, like, I have to do the whole paranoid schizophrenic thing. And, and I'm like, shut the up. You have the most asymmetric bet in human history on your side that you have constantly proven to yourself is right. Like even just looking over the last month, you know, like we outperform pretty much everything. And the fact that like I do that at a standstill by sitting on my hand, like I frequently will wake up and be like, oh, I like, like made more money than I did in my normal life than I did before by doing nothing. Like, what does that mean? Which to me it implements a very specific form of nihilism of like how this whole world of finance is and how wrong it is and what a gigantic scam. It's very, it's very similar to the gold thing. Like if you look at gold's performance since the year 2000, it's like outperformed the S P 500 ridiculously. And so it's like you can do that whole insane schizophrenic shell game or you can just like hold a bearer asset for like a long period of time and you like win. And it's just, I don't know it like with me a lot because it's like, what does it mean that the entire financial paradigm that we've created is essentially a fiction where instead of like the like, think about the entirety of CNBC and all the financial markets and Wall street, like all of this that's about trying to teach you how to make money can literally just be replaced by the sentence of like, just hold Bitcoin. Like that's it. Now I get that, like there's a certain level of faith you have to have in that. But also like, that's where logic comes in is that like you have to be like, I understand that I have feelings and those feelings are trying to influence the outcome of my belief about these things. But there's also logic and back testing and like we can provably say over the last 20 years that gold has outperformed the S&P 500, that Bitcoin sense its existence has outperformed S&P 500, that they like cagrade of these things outperforms the S P500. So like maybe we should just do that.
- [117:14]
Hodl
The.
- [117:15]
Eric
But like I don't want to on anybody. Like, if you want to engage in your paranoid schizophrenic game that is inherently allowing for this system of systematic abuse to exist, like you can, but you're participating in all of our general slavery. And so you should maybe think about that, particularly if you're one of these people who wants to come to me and be like you. You won't immediately say that Donald Trump is actually literally Hitler and he is implementing the Holocaust right now. Like, yeah, I'm not going to say that because I don't think he's literally Hitler. I don't think he's principled enough to be a fascist. But furthermore, like, you actually support a system that does inherently help a genocidal system exist. So, like, that just. I don't know. Like, I. Maybe you should look at that. That. Just a suggestion. Just a suggestion.
- [118:04]
Hodl
The. The Bible says that you should keep a third of your wealth in gold, a third of your wealth in real estate, and a third of your wealth in your business. And honestly, that advice is 2,000 years old. It's great advice. Like, if you just replace gold with bitcoin and you did that, you would just be super prosperous. Like, the. Your. Your FA ain't going to tell you that. The Bible's got you covered, though, dog. Like, it's. It's just like the simplest things in the world, like the, you know, the portfolio, you know, who outperforms, like, in which investor group outperforms dead people because their fucking portfolios don't move, okay? So it's just like, doing nothing is the key. And that's my whole point is, like, I didn't say I outperformed Bitcoin by 15 to be like, look at me, I'm sophisticated, whatever. Like, no, it's like, right? No, it was not worth my time or effort, and I fucking just pissed away a bunch of hours I could have otherwise spent doing anything else that I actually enjoyed with my life. And the extra 15% is. Is fucking meaningless. It's marginal. So why did I feel compelled to do it in the first place? Wasted.
- [119:13]
Eric
Yeah. It's like you took all this time and effort to scale Everest when you could just, like, take the escalator, right? And, like, I get there's some satisfaction about scaling Everest, but, like, the escalator is like a really big.
- [119:23]
Hodl
I had no satisfaction from this. When I did the math on how much I had made. When I added up the wins and losses, I was like, this is. This sucks. Fuck this. Why did I even do this? You know?
- [119:33]
Walker
Okay, yeah, but by the same token, we. We. I think all three of us know that you're not doing what you do right now because you're like, I'm gonna. Like, this is a purely, like, I'm gonna make as much money as I can thing. You're doing this also because you are trying to like invest in companies that you believe in, even though you know those companies are probably not going to perform better than the hurdle rate of Bitcoin.
- [119:56]
Hodl
That's the justification. You tell yourself as a bitcoin startup investor, you're like, well, it doesn't work out. I'm doing it for bitcoin.
- [120:04]
Walker
I'm in it for the tech. I'm in it for the tech. It's not for the money, it's the tech. I've kept you guys here for a while now, but I appreciate both, both of you coming on here. These are, always, these group therapy sessions are always wonderful. Is there anything you want to close with, to leave people with? Send people. Hodo you want to shill any of your startup investments or Casey shill Vora or. I'm trying to rant about anything else?
- [120:33]
Hodl
Yeah, I'm trying to shill a noster business. At the end of every pod I go on for free. So check out Oshi on Nostr o S h I. They have all sorts of yummy dessert things and like nut butter stuff. Yeah, it looks good. So check out Oshi. It's exclusive.
- [120:53]
Walker
It's.
- [120:53]
Hodl
It's a noster. Oh yeah, nut butter. It's a, it's a noster only business. It's a noster only business, I think. And I haven't trampled the product yet, but I'm gonna order some. Everybody else says it's amazing. Check it out.
- [121:08]
Walker
Oshi, you're going to sample some nut butter, huh?
- [121:11]
Hodl
Yeah.
- [121:12]
Walker
Let me know how it goes. This is the topic of your next vlog.
- [121:16]
Hodl
Nut butter. It tastes yummy.
- [121:19]
Eric
All shill Vora Vora IO that's like the company that me and Jesse posed in our building. Like we're, we're essentially trying to build like the unicorn thing that everybody wanted which essentially is like a, from silicon to software, like a fully open source, transparent, verifiable computer that's going to have like an application layer that's going to allow for you to be self sovereign with your bitcoin in a new and different way through a totally new cryptographic protocol built on bitcoin with new authentication factors that like Jesse Posner as like the lead senior architect at Block and a contributor to like a core dev contributor and an individual that has made, made multiple contributions to open source bitcoin development. He's fucking brilliant and my partner. But at the end of it's kind of funny because as we show this to like a lot of VCs, like, whoa, this is like a really big vision. Or like, what? Like, are you like a. Like a. A small dick little. That, like, like, I thought that's what you wanted. Like, don't you want, like, big vision? Because, like, we're giving you an opportunity to invest in a trillion dollar company, but you're like, oh, too scary to invest a couple hundred thousand dollars. Like, that's what you do. And, like, you invested in, like, all kinds of idiotic. That's gonna make you, like, $4. So anyways, this isn't a public solicitation, but, like, if you're a venture capitalist and, like, want to throw some money at something, reach out. But yeah, the other one is, is like, again, we'll revisit this in the future when Bitcoin's like, $150,000 or whatever. But just like, if you're worried about money and that's like, a thing that you do and you, like, have a bunch of fiat you. By the way, like, where the are you guys getting fiat money? Like, how do you guys have fiat money? Like, I did, like, I'm, like, a little suspicious now, you guys. You're, like, still stacking. It's like, where. With what? Like, did you have more chairs to sell? Because I thought we, like, liquidated that a while ago. So, like, I'm, like, on to YouTube.
- [123:16]
Walker
This is my last chair, you guys. Come on.
- [123:19]
Eric
Although, like, I'm super hypocritical right now. Like, I'm, like, actually sitting in a chair, so, like, I should. I should maybe shut the up.
- [123:25]
Hodl
Disgusting. I used to think better.
- [123:28]
Walker
Gross.
- [123:29]
Eric
Yeah, it's. It's fair. If we do a political thing, I have to apologize about the kinky that's going to come out about me. Not nothing illegal, just weird.
- [123:37]
Hodl
I'm sorry, that chair is a sip. But, you know, it's actually a Civian. Yeah.
- [123:47]
Eric
Don'T look that up. You guys, please make sure your VPNs on if you look that up.
- [123:51]
Walker
I like that. We all know what that is, though. It's just like, that was.
- [123:55]
Hodl
It's like a Howard. It's like a Howard Stern thing from the early.
- [123:58]
Walker
Didn't need to be explained. Didn't need to be, you know, like.
- [124:02]
Eric
Although, like, now somebody needs to develop, like, the lightning Fed Sybian thing that, like, changes the controls on it. I'll let you guys figure that out for yourselves.
- [124:11]
Walker
Oh, no, it's another. It's another angel.
- [124:13]
Eric
Only fans and only fans.
- [124:14]
Hodl
Integration.
- [124:15]
Walker
Yeah.
- [124:16]
Eric
God, like, why hasn't somebody made only Zaps already. Like only fan. Like clearly we need to go deeper into the degeneracy of culture and help feed it.
- [124:25]
Walker
But, but anyways, I tried Footster, guys. I tried to start Footster. You can still go to footster.com by the way. I think the website's still active. I think I'm still paying for it.
- [124:32]
Hodl
By the way. I swear, the long tail of only fans shows that there are 2 million women out there who showed their for 50 or less a month. Which is like, that's, that is not good, man.
- [124:45]
Eric
You're one of them.
- [124:46]
Hodl
Like if you're a top 0.1% creator, you're making millions dollars a month. Like, like cool, I support you, I guess. I don't know. But $50, like there's a lot of things you can do to earn $50 that aren't showing your to the Internet, you know.
- [125:05]
Eric
I don't, I don't think that there's a lot of long term thought going on there. But anyways, much love to you guys. Yeah, can't wait till we do another one of these. It's always fun to, to have a little group therapy session and realize that. But not everyone on planet Earth is actually so it's always nice to meet with other people that have put multiple brain cells together and made them collaborate and work together to figure shit out. But truly, it's actually very inspirational to see and know and understand because bitcoiners are always several standard deviations removed from any other groupings of people. Which is why working out of Presidio bitcoin has been so incredible. Because anytime somebody comes through the door, they're always awesome, like irregardless. Whereas like if I go out anywhere else in the world, the heuristic is usually like 99 of people. We're gonna talk about sportsball or other normie stuff that makes me want to become an alcoholic. So that's kind of where we're at.
- [126:03]
Walker
Love you guys. Appreciate your time. And I want to shout out to everybody who joined this on Noster, we had up to a hundred, 129 people viewing on Noster and still have 81 people viewing this live stream on a decentralized, censorship resistant protocol. And that's pretty neat. So thank you.
- [126:22]
Eric
Look, if each one of those people paid you $1 to show you their or their penis, like they're out there performing, only fans only zaps, baby.
- [126:30]
Walker
Hold on guys. I don't know if that's how the model works. They, they paid to me to show I don't know. I'm.
- [126:36]
Hodl
We should. That is the dude version of only fans, right? It's like where you pay girls to look at your penis.
- [126:43]
Walker
Now that's a business idea, right?
- [126:44]
Hodl
We can build that on Noster. Look at my penis for $1. You guys, I think.
- [126:54]
Walker
Hold on.
- [126:54]
Eric
I think we have a company.
- [126:56]
Walker
We need to cut this recording right now so we don't give away too much alpha on this new.
- [127:01]
Eric
New.
- [127:01]
Walker
This new round. Okay? Appreciate you guys. I'm cutting the stream now.
- [127:05]
Eric
Peace. See you guys.
- [127:14]
Walker
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin Podcast. Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening, and share it with your friends, family, and subscribers. Strangers on the Internet. Find me on noster@primal.net walker and this podcast@primal.netcoin on X, YouTube and Rumble. Just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram at Titcoin Podcast. Head to the Show Notes to grab sponsor links. Head to substack.com walker America to get episodes emailed to you. And head to bitcoin podcast.net for everything else. Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.