THE Bitcoin Podcast: "BITCOIN IS ANARCHY. DEAL WITH IT" – NVK Interview (October 10, 2025)
Host: Walker America
Guest: NVK (Rodolfo Novak, CEO of Coinkite)
Episode Overview
This episode features an expansive, thought-provoking interview with NVK, a prominent figure in the Bitcoin hardware and security space. The discussion circles around the evolving state of the Bitcoin community, the myth of "saving" Bitcoin, anarchic and fairness-driven qualities of the system, current technical and social debates, NVK's philosophy on node operation and software upgrades, hardware security innovations, second-layer solutions like Lightning and Ecash, and broader societal implications as Bitcoin integrates further into global finance.
Tone: Direct, irreverent, and at times philosophical, NVK challenges community dogmas while emphasizing personal responsibility and the inherent—and often misunderstood—anarchism at Bitcoin's core.
Key Themes & Discussion Points
1. Bitcoin as Anarchy, Not Democracy
NVK’s Core Thesis:
- Bitcoin is explicitly not about democracy, voting, or equality. It’s about fairness and rules applied equally, not voices weighted equally.
- The design intentionally minimizes individual influence:
"I love the meme: 'I don't matter because you don't fucking matter.' It's literally the whole point of the system—to make individuals matter less, be less effective at disrupting the network..." (00:08)
- Political, religious, and collectivist analogies are misleading baggage brought in from the fiat world.
- Memorable quote:
"Bitcoin's anarchy, right? It does not have religious attribution. It does not have political attributions. It doesn't fucking have anything. It's just a mathematical system, right? With extremely conservative economic values. And full anarchy." (00:44)
2. Debate Fatigue & Main Character Syndrome
- Social media amplifies drama and fosters "main character syndrome," where everyone feels their node, opinion, or intervention is crucial to Bitcoin's fate.
- Reality: Participation is meaningful only at a scale (economic nodes, not just running a node for vanity).
- On debates and community drama:
"The average pleb out there is just tired of it...The suit coiners haven't cared this entire time...because they know it's working." (21:37)
- NVK suggests unplugging, touching grass, and accepting both the irrelevance—and the victory—of individual actors.
3. Economic Nodes vs. Node Count
- Economic nodes (used by exchanges, businesses, or anyone holding substantial value and actually making/validating transactions) compose the backbone of Bitcoin’s consensus.
- Vanity node counts (like running a node with a few sats just for pride) don’t protect nor "decentralize" Bitcoin in any real way.
- Explanation:
"A pleb node with a few cents…does that node matter? No…We have a fair network that provides the same rules to everyone. It doesn't matter if you're king or if you're drunk or both. You have the same rules." (12:14)
4. Philosophy on Software Upgrades and Ossification
- NVK is "team don’t upgrade unless necessary," drawing from his BSD/unix roots:
"This idea of upgrading software is Windows mentality... I recommend everybody to stop upgrading. It's not broken." (16:40)
- Bitcoin’s resistance to change is a feature, not a bug—brittleness and ossification protect consensus.
- Recent software and social drama (Core vs. Knots, UASF, OP_RETURN, covenants) are overblown.
- On hard forks:
"I don't think there'll be a successful change to Bitcoin in the near future. It's designed this way...It's like getting Israelis and Palestinians to agree to turn the whole space into a massive Christian swimming pool—both sides say 'no.'" (38:28)
5. Upgrades, Maintenance, and the UN*X Time Problem (32:30+)
- Technical improvements (like covenants for on-chain vaults) are intriguing and useful, but base protocol changes are difficult/improbable.
- One "necessary" upgrade is fixing the UNIX time encoding, critical for Bitcoin’s future operation.
- Most other improvements should happen at higher layers or via non-consensus software.
6. Redefining Success and Participation
- NVK pushes against savior complexes:
"No, you're not here to save bitcoin. I'm here to save bitcoin. No, you're not." (19:44)
- Rage-quitting cycles are natural; people leave when Bitcoin no longer maps to their expectation to matter.
- He tracks expected rage quits for perverse amusement.
7. Hardware, Security & Personal Responsibility
- Coinkite continues to iterate on Coldcard, introducing new spending policies (limits, whitelists, on-device controls) to guard against user error and duress.
- NVK’s ethos is to make security understandable, not idiot-proof:
"If you're not willing to understand Bitcoin, go buy MicroStrategy. Go buy an ETF. Bitcoin is for people who want to take responsibility..." (66:40)
8. Layer 2, Lightning, and Custodial Realities (75:31+)
- Lightning works—especially as a custodial, hub-and-spoke system.
- Ecash/Cashew offers real privacy advantages despite being custodial—but highly modular and diverse so rug risks are spread.
- Credit is a core feature of the modern economy; Bitcoin doesn’t (yet) solve payday liquidity. Expect more hybridization with fiat features (loans, credit, insurance).
9. Global Monetary Transition & Backdoor Financialization
- Most people will never custody their own bitcoin (not enough UTXOs, nor appetite for responsibility).
- Public treasuries, ETFs, and Bitcoin-backed product proliferation are features, not bugs—ensuring broader adoption and political protection:
"We're infecting the financial system. It's not the way around." (51:32)
- NVK: That’s good. “Teachers’ pensions” should depend on Bitcoin—makes bans politically costly.
10. Outsider Innovations: Nostr, Social Protocols, Privacy
- Nostr is maturing (Primal app "almost like Twitter"), but real adoption will spike in bursts.
- NVK is bullish on private messaging apps like White Noise which combine modern crypto with Nostr’s decentralized identity.
Notable Quotes & Timestamps
Bitcoin’s Core Ethos:
"Bitcoin’s the most selfish money that ever existed before, in a good way... all that really matters is self-verifying on your node with the software version you want."
— NVK (06:34)
On Node Count Fallacy:
"Node count doesn’t do anything meaningful... Imagine if node count mattered, state actors could just run a million nodes."
— NVK (10:26)
On Upgrades:
"I don’t upgrade my node and I welcome… I recommend everybody to stop upgrading... This is Windows mentality."
— NVK (16:41)
On “Saving Bitcoin”:
"No, you're not here to save bitcoin. I'm here to save bitcoin. No, you're not."
— NVK (19:44)
On Bitcoin as a Fair, Not Equitable System:
"Bitcoin is not about… equality. Bitcoin is about fairness. We have a fair network that provides the same rules to everyone..."
— NVK (12:19)
On Credit & Societal Reality:
"Bitcoin is terrible money for people that don't have money… you can't have a modern consumerist society without credit. Bitcoin does not solve that problem, not right now."
— NVK (79:15)
On Hardware Wallet Design:
"What people really want is the hardware wallet to say no, you can't spend more than this, or you can't send to an address that is not on this list."
— NVK (55:22)
On Personal Responsibility:
"If you're not willing to understand bitcoin, go buy MicroStrategy… Bitcoin is for people like having UTXOs with a signing device. It's for people who want responsibility..."
— NVK (66:40)
On Layer 2 Innovation:
"Custodial Lightning works great… It's unfortunate it took so long for alternatives to emerge... I want to see how ARK plays out, I’m bullish."
— NVK (75:31)
On Political-Market Shield:
"A politician can no longer say, 'Bitcoin should be illegal.' It’ll tank the markets... That’s a moat. You should be celebrating anybody stacking sats, even if you don’t like them."
— NVK (87:20)
Important Segments & Timestamps
- 00:00–03:36 • NVK Opening Monologue: Bitcoin’s anarchic architecture and why personal action is overrated.
- 06:27–11:59 • “No, there's no sides”; Economic nodes vs. vanity nodes; Community drama cycles.
- 14:56–21:11 • Debate fatigue, "main character syndrome," and the futility of savior complexes.
- 26:54–31:31 • Upgrades: When (not) to do them, consensus vs. non-consensus changes, and the UNIX time problem.
- 38:12–42:49 • Ossification, risks of protocol change, the myth of imminent Bitcoin collapse.
- 52:48–55:22 • Inevitable financialization, why most won't self-custody, peaceful monetary transition.
- 55:22–64:02 • Coldcard innovations: spending conditions, multisig, security models, education vs. foolproofing.
- 68:53–71:35 • The “driver’s license” analogy for self-custody responsibility.
- 74:28–81:17 • Layer 2: Lightning, Custodial models, Ecash/Cashew, credit's role in society.
- 82:31–88:05 • Credit, loans, insurance, integration with traditional finance, future moats.
- 88:57–94:40 • Nostr, private communication, critical open protocols, White Noise app, advice for listeners.
Memorable Moments
- "It's like the 'go walk on grass' meme. Listen, I'm guilty too... At the end of the day, I walk barefoot on some sand and remember: we're winning. Like, losing is clearly more fun for some people." (08:24)
- NVK’s resignation to people’s inability to accept their own irrelevance: “Personal wagers...I love all these people...but we know people will rage quit. It’s the natural course of bitcoin.” (20:06)
- On broad societal change: “We’re infecting the financial system. It’s not the way around.” (51:32)
- "The only utility value for bitcoin is holding it and exchanging it. There is nothing else." (53:53)
Summary & Takeaways
- Bitcoin is winning because it’s hard to change and indifferent to your or anyone’s influence.
- Most debates and drama are noise; rarely do they threaten the system's integrity.
- Don’t upgrade your node unless necessary; ossification is a feature.
- Vanity activism (e.g., “my node will save Bitcoin”) is misplaced. True influence comes from economic use, not mere participation.
- The financialization of Bitcoin (ETFs, public company treasuries) is inevitable and positive—it forms a political shield and smooths the transition.
- NVK’s hardware philosophy doubles down on empowering users, not abstracting away responsibility.
- Bitcoin will become an increasingly important part of global finance whether or not everyone self-custodies their coins.
- "Touch grass"—take a step back, be less anxious, trust the math and incentives, and focus on your life.
Final Advice (NVK, 94:00):
"Just…stack the sats, go walk on grass, all this noise…go live your life. Go build things, be productive…get yourself a cold card, stick the money in it and move on. It's so simple people cannot believe how simple it is, so they have to complicate it." (94:00)
For Further Detail:
End of Summary.