← THE Bitcoin Podcast
THE Bitcoin Podcast
BITCOIN IS GOING UP FOREVER & THE BIG RED BUTTON | Joe Bryan (THE Bitcoin Podcast)
01:31:03
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- [00:00]
Joe Brian
We are so, so early. We are so incredibly early. I mean, you can test this for yourself. Just walk along the street and pick 10 people at random and say, why do we need bitcoin? I'd be amazed if anyone could tell you. And just, it's very clear we're just so early. There's a handful of countries which are actively looking at these things. Most of the world is totally asleep on it, totally asleep. I mean, the. We know if we step through those things, like if we know everybody who puts the work in never goes back. And once you've put the work in, you never go back. You then never want to hold anything else. The natural consequence of that is over passage of time, everybody ends up in that, in that position. And if everybody ends up in that position, you never want to hold anything else. Bitcoin consumes the entire world. And so $100,000 is nothing, nothing in the, in the grand scheme of things. And it's also being measured in a frame of reference that is attached to the big red buttons. So the, so you measure it, you measure it in, in dollars. The more people that opt in to bitcoin and opt out of the FIAs, the more FIAs he has to print. And so, you know, bitcoin's going up forever. Bitcoin's going up forever. It's going to eat the entire world.
- [01:21]
Walker
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs. My name is Walker and this is the bitcoin podcast the Bitcoin time Ch. 879665 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin. Today's episode is bitcoin talk where I talk with my guest about bitcoin and whatever else comes up. And today that guest is Joe Brian. Joe just released an incredible video called what's the problem? And it's honestly one of the best bitcoin videos I have ever seen. If you haven't checked it out yet, grab the link in the show notes, watch it and share it far and wide. This was a great conversation with Joe talking about the problems with fiat money, our broken incentive system, how bitcoin fixes this, and what happens next. Before we dive in, do me a favor and subscribe to the bitcoin podcast wherever you're listening. And make sure to subscribe on YouTube or rumble as well by searching at Walker America. Send an email to hello Bitcoin podcast.net if you have feedback or are interested in sponsoring the bitcoin podcast. And lastly, this episode is something new. It's a pure value for value episode with no sponsorships. So if you find this show valuable, consider giving value back by giving it a zap on Noster or a boost on Fountain. I truly appreciate it. Without further ado, let's get into this bitcoin talk with Joe Brian. Joe, we are good to go now. We are live. Thanks so much for being here. Excited to dive into this. As I was just saying, before we went live here, I watched your video and I've obviously seen a lot of bitcoin videos. I think you and I both have. Anyone who's on bitcoin, Twitter or X or Nostra has seen a lot of bitcoin videos trying to explain why people should get into bitcoin. And that's great. I've made a lot of videos like that myself with my lovely wife. Ours are usually a little bit more of a humorous take and shorter form, but this was about a 30 minute deep dive into bitcoin, but not starting with bitcoin, not even really mentioning bitcoin until quite far along in it. But the video is just, what's the problem? And I saw it and I said, I need to get you on here. I think I dmed you shortly after. And here you sit. So welcome, first of all. Glad to have you. Thank you for making this video. I thought it was brilliant. You really, you created something really special with it.
- [03:58]
Joe Brian
Well, thank you. And thank you for having me on. This is another surreal moment in a week of surreal moments. So thanks for. And thanks for reaching out as well. And I didn't say this to you before, but you were the, I think the first, the first person I saw to take the video, download it, and then repost it to your audience and really amplify it. And thank you. Thank you for doing that because we didn't. I had no idea you were doing that. And it took me by surprise. And it just, it just went. And I think that you giving it that boost, put it on a lot of other people's radars and then, you know, ultimately ends up with us getting sailored. So it's.
- [04:41]
Walker
You know, when I saw Sailor posted, I was like, okay, that's the, that is the true kind of mark of if Sailor decides to share something on his own timeline, that that means a lot. So, yeah, congratulations. But I think it was, it was well deserved. Like, this was a, you know, we live in this very short term, instant gratification. I need whatever it is that you're telling me to be told me in the first 30 seconds or I'm, you know, scrolling to the next. And so I think videos like this are, are honestly a challenge because it was about 30 minutes or so, maybe a couple minutes more.
- [05:18]
Joe Brian
It's 39 minutes. It's 39 minutes.
- [05:20]
Walker
Yeah, I mean, that, that is.
- [05:22]
Joe Brian
I was really. Yeah, I've never made a video, I've never made a video before. And, and you know, really, you know, you're, you're surrounded. No, no, no, you surround. This is my first. I have a brand new YouTube channel, just created one and, and, and published it. I've never created content for anybody, you know, outside of a, you know, business, you know, framework. And so, you know, I was already conscious it was going to be quite long. And then by the time, you know, we've done the intro and then the outro and then the explainer out, you know, if you are interested to learn more about bitcoin, then, you know, why you should give it a second chance and then what to do in all of those things adding up to like 39 minutes. I thought, oh, no, you know, people are going to lose interest. It's not going to, it's not, it's not going to fit with how social media is these days. But, you know, I've been proved, I've been proved wrong.
- [06:17]
Walker
So, you know, I think that there, as much as I would say, most people have a very short attention span there. The people who do have the capability of paying attention just a little bit longer than 30 seconds, those are the people that are actually open to new ideas anyway, if your attention Spanish so short that you cannot be bothered to look into something for more than 30 seconds, you know what, maybe you're just not quite ready. But this. So I think it's in a way having something a little bit longer as a filtering mechanism to say, okay, you know, you're gonna have to dedicate, you know, 39 minutes of your scarce time to this. But it was, in my opinion, 39 minutes incredibly well spent. And what I loved about this video, again, was that you didn't lead with bitcoin, you led with the problem. And as we were talking about just before we came on here, until somebody understands what the problem is, they're not looking or they're not open to a solution. Even if it's presented right in front of their face, wrapped up with a nice bright orange bow, they won't care because they don't understand that that solution is a solution to the problem that they acutely feel. And so I want to get into this, I want to get into the video. I want to get into a lot of things with you just maybe before we kind of dive into some of that. Just if you can, you know, who are you? How did you get here today to all of a sudden decide to be making this, you know, this SATS versus Fiat website to creating these tools, educational tools, to, to show people about the problems with Fiat and Bitcoin. What, what was your journey here?
- [08:07]
Joe Brian
Well, I found Bitcoin in 2020 during the, during the pandemic. As, you know, as a lot of people, a lot of people did, you know, for, for, for various reasons, you know, for what was happening around us, but also having more, you know, a big change in just the way your life is. You'd have more time, you have much less traveling and then you'd start to be thinking more and you know, going down, going down the rabbit hole. But, you know, my, my background before that I did physics at university and then went straight to Goldman Sachs and I was a equity derivatives trader for 10 years. Morgan Stanley and UBS as well, but primarily Goldman. And then I always wanted to be a bookmaker when I was, you know, growing up. So I used to work in the betting shops in, when I was 18, you know, in, in Yorkshire. And by end, you know, it was, you know, physical, you know, writing on bits of paper and, you know, settling all the bets and things like that. I always loved the maths behind it. And so during the time that I was, you know, the last couple of years of working in the City, I started applying the maths underlying, you know, derivatives pricing to sports and trying to calculate what the probabilities of different outcomes were in sports events, predominantly football, and then left the city to move into sports and within sort of a year and a half, two years, had met someone else who'd followed almost the exact same path. He'd spent 15 years at Morgan Stanley doing fixed income derivatives. But similarly, he'd applied the maths of football, realized the bookmaker's not doing very well, had left, and we got together. He was an engineer and I was a quant trader. And so we started our quant engineering business, Raw Algo's real time pricing across different sports. And then we started supplying bookmakers with prices to help them improve their product for their customers and also create new products driven from that real time maths or more opaque maths, which allows you to unlock more product and more interesting opportunities for your customers to, you know, to make bets from a recreational perspective, I should say, as we were acquired then by biggest customer. And I spent the last five, six years up until end of last, the start of last year growing that business and now it's become a very big business. And you know, I've had the opportunity to take a step out because I've reached the point where AI, that business has grown so much it's very difficult for me to add the sort of value I was adding initially in its growth. And there are now far better people to do the things that I was doing. And secondly, there's just nothing else more important than working on bitcoin. And so for the last six, nine months I have been thinking about nothing else then bitcoin, where this is going, what I can do to help push it forward and all the opportunities that a bitcoin future is going to unlock for everybody and ultimately building bitcoin businesses. So that's the sort of whistle stop tour of there to hear. So yeah, we could dig into the video creation or whatever you would like.
- [11:50]
Walker
Yeah, I do want to get into the video creation. You know I saw so many people say that this and I would concur with this. This is either the best or one of the best kind of bitcoin explainer videos that they'd ever seen or that I'd ever seen. And I think that's true. So the fact that this was like your first foray into doing this I think is really impressive. And I think what was so impactful for me about the video because of course I'm, you know, like yourself, I'm, I'm deep down the, the rabbit hole.
- [12:23]
Joe Brian
Right.
- [12:23]
Walker
But I tried to watch, excuse me, watch the video from the perspective of, you know, put on my, my previous set of no coiner eyes. You know, like I wish I would have seen this video earlier in my own journey because it does such a great job of laying things out in a really orderly, well constructed way where it just, it builds, it builds, it builds and by the time you get to the part where you talk about bitcoin you understand the problem but you understand it through these, these nice characters, you know, kind of Pixar esque type characters. It'd be great to see, you know some, I hope that somebody out there can use some AI tools and make a full blown animation of this because I think it would make a, a lovely movie for both children and adults. But so if anyone out there listening has some of those capabilities, they should maybe reach out to you.
- [13:12]
Joe Brian
Get touch, get in touch ups. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
- [13:16]
Walker
But I want to kind of maybe a starting point is why, you know, you called it what's the problem? And I think that was, that's really powerful. But why do you think it's so hard for people to see the problem or to identify the problem? Why do we even need to start with the problem that to some of us seems self evident at this point? We're so deep down the rabbit hole, but we forget that for the average person, it's not self evident. It's not self evident at all.
- [13:42]
Joe Brian
But I think the key, the key part of that question, Walker, is you said at this point it's self evident. You've reached a point in your journey where it's now just so obvious. But going back to, I mean, 2019 perhaps, where, you know, that would not have been the case and you know, you're, you would still consider yourself to be equally smart and probably equally well informed at that point in time had you had to, you know, self attest to that. So, you know, what, what's the difference? What's the difference? And it's so, you know, I think one of the things, and, you know, I'm certainly guilty of it as well, is that when you go through that one way door into Bitcoin, that you just see the world so differently then makes it very hard to communicate back to somebody who's not, who's not coming at it from the same perspective because you lose that shared basis of sort of rationale and you know, you sound like a crazy person or like somebody who's like trying to convince them to do something and it's not in their best interest and these sorts of things because they haven't been through those logical leaps that you have. And, and I would say, I mean, this is sort of the way I think about it within Bitcoin is that, you know, we started with the, with the white paper and for somebody to read the white paper and to imagine a future of where we are now and where we're going is such a, massively that the number of people capable of A, seeing the white paper and then B, making that leap is so incredibly small. And so the people who do then make it a little bit easier for the next generation of people coming in. There's now more material, there's a bit more structure, there's more thinking that has been done. Another piece of the map has been revealed. And over time we get more and more of this map revealed and the gap between where we currently are and everybody is reduced. But it's still quite a way, it's still quite a way. And, you know, we've had, you know, a tremendous amount of great content and thinking around, you know, political aspects, the, the thought process, the economics, the, you know, we have finance coming in on top of the, you know, the cypherpunks. And, you know, each layer sort of deals with a little bit different other aspects of society, which allows different cohorts of the population to come in because it intersects with their existing knowledge or interest. And then we have, you know, podcasters crop up and make it much more accessible again. And it's sort of. You get the technical guests on and then they. They sort of try and pass it through a more human. I say wrong phrase, but like a more human filter. Like make it more. Make it more widely accessible. But still, it's like, this is really challenging stuff, right? But at each stage, you're making that bubble slightly bigger. And, you know, we had the books from Lynn Olden and Alex Cladstein and Jeff Booth and all these guys making it even easier again. And, you know, you have safety and with the bitcoin standard, obviously, you know, but the gap from those to everybody is still big because they don't get why they should even bother if they were motivated. The path is now there for them. But it's like, how do you solve the motivation question? And so I really, I hope. And it seems like this is slot. That what's the problem is slotting in really nicely as sort of just the thing you send to your friends before you send them broken money or the bitcoin standard or, you know, price reading list. Yeah, yeah, some. Something where they've actually got to put some effort in themselves rather than just sitting there and looking at, you know, looking at a screen. You know, there's ways to do that as well, but, you know, you know what I mean? So it's like that really gentle. That gentle orange pilling where they don't even realize they're being orange pilled because you don't even talk about bitcoin until they themselves have been through the. The mental. The logical sequencing through the video so that when you get to the end, the solution is so obvious. The problem. The problem is so obvious. The fact that there was a better alternative in the video is so obvious. And so when you say, well, that better alternative is actually real, right? It's just bitcoin, so come and learn about bitcoin, that makes it such a small gap at the end because they think, well, I've already made that decision in my own mind. Like, I've decided to learn about this. So great. You're not forcing that. They're leading themselves there. So that's a very long answer to your question, but I hope it.
- [18:49]
Walker
No, it's a great answer. And, you know, I'd love to maybe just get in a little bit to how you constructed the part of what's the problem? Like, how did. What was your process for deciding, okay, this is how I need to go through it. Like, you know, and you set it up using, like, an example that people have used before, basically, on a desert island, essentially create this isolated test case, basically, and then split that island in half. But how did you decide, okay, this is. It's very easy to get into the weeds with some of this stuff. You start talking about Austrian economics concepts and people's eyes, most people's eyes glaze over. So how did you decide to structure the problem so that it was actually going to be accessible but not feel like, you know, you're somehow, you know. The other extreme of that is you sound like you're, you know, trying to talk to a child or something. Maybe people feel like their intelligence is insulted. Like, how did you strike a balance there? And how did you decide to construct. What is the problem?
- [19:55]
Joe Brian
Well, I think there's a lot of luck involved in this, Walker. You know, I'd love to be able to say, oh, well, you know, I thought, you know, long and hard about all these different aspects. It. It just felt like the right way to do it. And, you know, I did manage to get a mention of Austrian economics in there and several mentions of, you know, Hayek as well. So, you know, it'll tick some boxes for people, too. But, yeah, getting that tone right and the balance, right, between sort of dumbing it down too much or making it too technical was quite hard. And as you can imagine, I had to cut quite a lot out. There's especially one slide in there, which is the flowchart that gradually gets revealed where things just start to spiral out of control and you have issues appearing everywhere in society just because, you know, Fiat Ella has gone and pressed this big red button to print the extra money where. I mean, that took me a long time to actually just even figure out how to. How to visually represent in a way which wasn't overpowering for the viewer because, you know, there's a lot going on, a lot of interconnected things, and, you know, there's big. There's big issues in society that didn't even get on the page because I was running out of space. And I was like, okay, how Am I going to solve this? But one of the things that was really, really helpful to get that balance right in delivery was by running through with people from different backgrounds, bitcoiners and non bitcoiners from different countries in person and online, asking them to, you know, can I show you a presentation for 30 minutes and you give me some feedback on it and, you know, give the presentation. They give some feedback. I then tweaked presentation. I give another presentation and tweak it again and take it again. And having gone through that process for probably a month before filming, it was incredibly valuable because I got all these different insights, you know, from teenagers to, or, you know, pensioners to, to, you know, hardcore bitcoin maxis all over the, you know, different parts of the world. So I ended up trying to sort of shave off any sharp edges or things were unclear or ambiguous. So, yeah, a big, big thank you to everybody who, who gave me. Who gave me that feedback. Yeah, helped me, help me create. Create this. But I would say Walker had. If I, If I did it again, I would write a script.
- [22:47]
Walker
Was this not. Did you just go through the presentation basically, while on camera and just kind of like, you. You were just going off the cuff, basically?
- [22:57]
Joe Brian
Yeah, I've just did it a couple of times.
- [23:00]
Walker
That's impressive.
- [23:02]
Joe Brian
Yeah, but, but, but now, you know, because I, I didn't expect many people to watch it, to be honest. You know, it's the naivety of doing something for the first time when you're totally inexperienced at doing that thing. You think it's going to be a lot easier than it is. And then afterwards you're like, okay, well, if I did this again, I'd be, I'd be, I'd be much better at it. And so, you know, I've. I had to download all the subtitles off YouTube and like, you know, make them all perfect. Especially now because I'm to do so many translations, it's different into different languages. You know, we've got, I think 14 languages live at this point and another 10 or 15 in. In progress from all from bitcoin volunteers around the world who have got in touch and say, look, I'd love to translate this into Slovenian or Polish or, you know, some. Even some regional languages within, within countries. It's just incredible. But, yeah, I wish I'd written a script because then it would just been a lot, just even tighter than it was. But I'm still happy with the output, to be honest.
- [24:04]
Walker
I mean, I think maybe there's sometimes when you try to polish things too much. It ends up seeming like just that something that was tried, you know, someone was trying to make this too polished. The fact that you did this kind of off the cuff based on just you walking through this set of slides that you had, I mean, I think clearly it resonated with people, like, very clearly. You've also, by the way, got just like a, a great voice for it. It just, it sounded very, very well, you know, it was very soothing throughout the whole time, you know, so like you're, you're talking about all these problems with fiat, all these issues in our society, but it's like you feel kind of calm while you're, while you're taking it in. So that, that was, that was well done.
- [24:43]
Joe Brian
I'm. I'm glad. I. But I was actually worried it would go the other way because I worried there wouldn't be enough energy in it. But I, I think the feedback is actually that that's actually worked quite nicely because, you know, if you have too much energy or you seem quite dogmatic about something, it can be off putting as well. Yeah, I know. I must say that we ended up putting some music in the background which is a bit like, almost like spa. Like, you know, it's quite relaxing music.
- [25:14]
Walker
Yeah, it was nice.
- [25:15]
Joe Brian
Yeah. Yeah. I would say like 95% of people like it, 5% of people really don't like it. And so, you know, it's, you know, maybe, maybe we'll throw up a video at some point as well that just doesn't have the background music to keep the remaining 5%, you know, completely happy.
- [25:30]
Walker
You know, throw in some, just like some death metal in there in the background just to go with a totally different vibe. Because I mean, music changes everything, right? Like it sets the tone for, for what you're going through. But you know, I would love if you could talk a little bit about these characters and maybe, you know, we. I don't expect you to give the whole presentation here, but just kind of talk about how you set this up, you know, with, with Satoshi and Fiatello. Talk about these characters, set the stage for us a little bit about, you know, you know, what's happening on this island. Basically.
- [26:04]
Joe Brian
Yeah. So the idea, the idea here is that there's a. There's a shipwreck onto a deserted island. But this deserted island is resource rich and it has everything that the stranded population could need to restart society. But there's a huge number of them on this, on this ship and they've come from a society which Is, which is advanced. And so they. They know what a functional, advanced society looks like, but they're just. They're just stuck and they have to start again. And, you know, the first challenge they have is, you know, because I know where the story is going. It's probably not the first challenge you would have in reality, but, you know, it's pitched as, you know, we're going to need to trade with each other, so let's figure out what monetary system we're going to use. And then you have to, you know, suspend your disbelief because they're there in, you know, torn clothing, but they create whatever technical solution they want. So it's like, you know, we'll leave that aside for now. And then you. They decide to create perfect money. And, you know, it basically describes bitcoin, you know, the seven, you know, these seven characteristics of. Of. Of perfect money. And. And so people up front very much get an idea. Okay, well, yeah, that. That makes sense because. Because most people have never even thought about it as, you know, like, we live in this little world where everyone's thinking about, you know, different aspects of money, you know, the whole time. But for most people, you know, you ask them, and there's just a blank look on their face because it's just like, you know, it's the thing you have in the pocket. They haven't really thought about any of those characteristics before. And so we get through those, and then it sounds like, okay, great, but then there's a disagreement, and Satoshi, the two leaders emerge, and one of them is Satoshi, and one of them is called fiatello. And Satoshi says, well, this is perfect money, so why would we ever need to change it? We all agree on the characteristics, but fiatello, you know, he's trying to be a bit more conservative or, you know, puts too much faith in. Too much faith in humanity or too much maybe he has too much pride in humanity, perhaps because he thinks humanity may need to change it because it will, you know, we can improve on perfection. But he says, you know, let's do this, but let's just add a big red button. And the big red button. No one will ever touch it, but it's there just in case. Just in case we ever need to change anything. But I promise, no one's going to touch it, you know. And so it's. What I quite like about that is it's. You don't have to, you know, over. Because I tried to make it really accessible to everybody. Anybody, like a child could sit down and watch that Anyone with, you know, no financial background could sit down and watch this and just the, the visual of a big red button just, it abstracts away all of the, you know, complexities of money printing or, you know, the financial system or anything. Like, it's just like whenever you want to change it, you just press the button and you change something, right? And it's, you know, it's quite hand wavy, but it just simplifies the whole thing for people because, you know, once you read about Bitcoin, then you can go down like, you know, what is money? You know, like, how does the financial system work? What is debt and what is, you know, credit and all of these different things. But, you know, so it's a, it's very much a simplified version. And then it takes us on, you know, but they disagree and they build this big wall down the middle of the island and it's so, it's so big that they just, they're cut off and they can't communicate, but they're effectively identical. And then we go through to really a, you know, two or three minutes of what is a free market and really what is the price. Distilling the price of tomorrow into two or three minutes from Jeff Booth, that was the inspiration for those slides where they're going from living hand to mouth to specialization to innovation and investment. And then they end up growing and being, becoming prosperous as a society, but with prices falling and quality going up. And so naturally the quality of life for everybody lifts, even the people who are unproductive on the island because the money itself is becoming more valuable, which is exactly how, exactly how money is supposed to work. Right? This is then, and I go through that. So people have a, have a rooting in what natural evolution looks like in a perfect money system. And it's obvious because you step through the logic yourself, as the person viewing it, you think, well, of course that's the case. But if you start with today's world and you go, well no, we need to change that and that's where we'll end up, then that's such a harder leap to make. And as you end up with this effectively purchasing power, increasing of the money every year and a government that is constrained, but importantly then the elect government on either side. But I intentionally try to keep it as politically neutral as possible, you know, because it's not about left, left and right, because they all have access to the button. Like the left and right is, is other aspects. The access to the button is the thing that corrupts it all. And so you know, it was a very conscious decision to avoid, to avoid losing anybody for whatever reason along the journey. And then yeah, because Satoshi can't do anything, he ends up losing the election because he has a deficit and he has to raise the taxes or cut the spending and he doesn't have a choice because he can't print any, doesn't have access to a big red button, but fiatello does. And so Fiatello just in the background, prints a bit of money, presses the big red button, doesn't have to raise taxes, doesn't have to cut spending, wins the election and thinks it's the greatest thing ever because there's no consequences to these actions and I'm still in power and Satoshi's been booted out. But then things start to spiral. And so we get into what happens when you debase the currency by printing money. And then there's several different ways that inflation then distorts the free market. The impact on businesses, the impact on asset prices, what that then means for families and unemployment, homelessness and all these secondary issues that then flow through society because of it and ultimately require the government to then come back in and, and solve them. Or an appeal from the population to solve them. Therefore the government needs to spend more money trying to solve these issues which then exacerbates the problem. And it's government problem appeal from the population to step in, government solution causes more government problems. And then you just get the snowball and snowball and snowball and it ultimately leads fiatello to just constantly press the big red button because it's the only way you can try and keep the show on the road until things really start to deteriorate and it pulls in all of the different, you know, all of the things that we read about and we carry around in our heads as bitcoiners. Because you, you are very, you're set up now for a lot of consequential thinking, like second, third order thinking, which is really not obvious to, to people who haven't sat down and done the work. Right. And so these two or three slides in the middle where you go through this snowball effect, it's really, really eye opening for people. You know, there's, when I was doing the pre launch one on ones with people and friends and family, lots of, you know, the reaction to that slide was quite dramatic in some cases because you know, you just say I never knew, I never knew this. Because they know these issues are around themselves, you know, they can feel it. But then to have it explained where, where they all come from. It's like, you know, the shades fall from your eyes. So I can, I can, I can put two and two together now. And then it. And then it spirals out of control because, you know, fiatiello ends up being pulling in big pharma and Wall street and the defense companies and the media, because you can't allow people to be talking badly about the government undermining leg intimacy. And then they're all attached to the money printer. And then things just go round and round, and then things start to break. And then we outline the different outcomes in that hyperinflation or asset seizures or politically extreme outcomes or something worse or civil war. And then we go back from there to sort of to remind people where we started. We started with perfect money. And fiatello changes two aspects of them. He changes his ability to print money, and then also on the way, his ability to remove censorship, resistance, resistancy of the money. He makes everyone put the money in the banks rather than hold it themselves. And so he's then able to buy and bail them in and protect them, you know, by checking all the transactions, you know, very, very similar things that we experience today. And so by the safety, of course, of course, of course. And yeah, we feel very safe. And, you know, by, by the end of this story, fiatiello ends up, fiatlo side of the island just looks like today. It just looks like today. And then people recognize that it just looks like today. And then you go back and say, well, hang on, there were seven characteristics of this perfect money. He only changed two of them. And look where he ended up. And then there's the reveal. And the reveal is that the dollar is just a terrible version of the fiatello. By that point, the viewer has realized very obviously from stepping through the logic themselves, that fiatiello side of the island is terrible. It's terrible. And it didn't have to be like that. They could have just kept with perfect money, but it's terrible. And then you say, they've already. They're already. They're already there, right? And then you go, well, the reveal is fiatlo is actually just much better than what we have or what America has, right? And then like, oh, okay, right. You know, and. And then you go through the. The growth of the US Debt, you know, putting that in context for, you know, the debasement of, of the dollar. And then they go, well, that's pretty. I wouldn't want the dollar. And then. And then I go, well, the dollar's actually pretty good. And then you look at all the other currencies and be like, all right, well those are much worse. Those are much, much worse, which is the majority of the world. And by that point you've already convinced yourself at the first step, let alone the second step or the third step, that you don't want to even own fiatlo. So why would you want to own the dollar? Why would you want to own the pound or why would you want to the Bolivar or whatever long tail of currencies there are? It becomes a no brainer at that point. And then the, I mean that's, it ends up being fairly depressing. Like once you, if you got to that point and went, all right, that's the end of the presentation, you know, it would be, it would be depressing.
- [38:24]
Walker
Have fun.
- [38:25]
Joe Brian
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Closing credit. But then the, the, then it's the solution, right? And the, the solution is the separation of money and state. That's it. You know, the government cannot be allowed to have access to that big red button because you can see what happens when they do. And now you understand all these issues around yourselves are predominantly or in some cases exclusively because the government's pressing the big red button. They're just not telling you or they're not making it obvious, or they're deliberately hiding it in some cases. And so I think it ends up being quite a very stark message for people and it's something you can just very much agree with. Somebody shouldn't be able to print as much money as they want. Like, it's just, that sounds, that's just very obvious, right? But especially when it's laid out for you in terms of, you know, action, consequence. And so it's, yeah, we talk about Hayek, you know, in the sly, roundabout way of taking out control of governments. And then I say like the good news that, the good, the good news here is that satoshis, which is the currency they use on the other side of the island, you've got the fiatellos and the satoshis, that satoshis are real because you've already, you've already decided in your head that satoshis are great. Because you know, by comparison you go, well, satoshis are real, right? And the solution is bitcoin. So you just need to come and learn about bitcoin and then give them a way to then do that by, you know, we set the website up, sats versus fiat.com which is there, and you can just go, and there's a section there for learners and you just click the button. And you'll get, you know, six starter videos and four books covering different aspects of bitcoin. Oh, there you go. There you go. So if you scroll down a little bit, you've got the, you've got the video which you can share easily. And if you go down a bit further on the left, you can hit the learn button, which just takes you to a set of resources here. And, you know, my six, my six starter videos for anybody. So, you know, it's not just how bitcoin works. It's trying to find videos that cover different aspects. So at least when somebody lands here for the first time, they can find something that interests them. You know, whether it's Alex Gladstein's, you know, humanitarian focus, you know, around the world, and he touches on energy and commerce as well, or whether it's Lyn Alden's, you know, Broken Money, Understanding the Financial system, or it's sailors, you know, there is no second best presentation. And I challenge any, anybody with a business mind to watch that video and not immediately just want to learn everything they possibly can about bitcoin. And then you've got something more technical but very accessible for how bitcoin works. And then the what Bitcoin did episode with Peter McCormack where it's filmed on the plane and Jeff Booth and Alex Gladstein are all talking about the different aspects of debasement and debt across the world, which is a very relaxed type of chat and just accessible to, accessible to anybody. And so, yeah, and then you've got the usual books below for those who are then motivated post the video to step in. And, you know, I've included Resistance money in there as well, which is.
- [42:10]
Walker
You.
- [42:10]
Joe Brian
Know, gives a slightly different, slightly different flavor in case someone's coming at it from a more, you know, structured or academic perspective. So it's really. I tried to, I've been talking for rug feels probably about 10 minutes now. Okay.
- [42:23]
Walker
But that's all right. I told you, safe space for long winded rants and comments. But no, I really, I think that the way that you've set this up is quite brilliant and it's very accessible. And I think that's what is needed right now is education that is as accessible as possible. Because really, even most people starting their journey aren't, aren't necessarily going to go and watch, you know, one and a half to two hour podcast interview about something that maybe isn't really. It's, it's perhaps already talking to people who are partially down that rabbit hole already. Right. Like this the video sets you up as a perfect primer. And one of the things about the video that I thought was just, was so powerful was that part where, you know, again it's, it's all, it's this very nice, kind of like Pixar esque, you know, fantasy make believe land. But then once Fiatlo presses that big red button, once he starts debasing the currency, printing money, and you start to see those effects, then you get to that flowchart and you start to see all of those downstream impacts as you said. Like it makes sense to me that in your kind of focus grouping of this that was what really resonated with people in probably not so pleasant a way oftentimes because it's a harsh reality to accept. But that is so powerful because so often we are told or we're, you know, we a problem is, is out there. Prices are rising, you know, grocery prices are too high. And it's blamed, depending on the politician, on any number of factors. From greedy corporations to the ultra wealthy not paying their fair share to whichever political group happens to be in power at the time. It's clearly their fault. But the thing they never talk about is the money. They never talk about the thing that's actually at the root of it. They only talk about the symptoms, the downstream symptoms of the actual disease. And the disease is broken fiat money. The disease is debasement of the currency, inflation of the money supply. But you never, I mean, you would be hard pressed to find anyone except maybe a couple of, you know, radical politicians, somebody like Thomas Massie or you know, you know, a Ron Paul to actually talk about the problem. And there of course, even by people in their own party kind of pushed to the side and said, well he's just some crazy guy over there anyway. The real problem is the guys who are in office now, or the real problem is the guys who were in office last time. It's never talking about what's the problem, it's just here are the symptoms of the problem and here are our proposals to put a band aid on those symptoms. But none of them treat the cancer, none of them treat the disease. Then they certainly don't cure it. They just put a little band aid on it, make people feel a little bit better for a short time. But nothing ever improves. And I think that's the frustration people feel is that you keep getting promised that we're going to fix X by doing Y and it'll work. But it never works. Nothing ever gets materially better or materially different.
- [45:36]
Joe Brian
It doesn't win votes.
- [45:38]
Walker
Yeah, Yep.
- [45:41]
Joe Brian
I mean, you're, as a politician, your KPI is getting elected and staying in office. See, your, your target outcome is not aligned with solving those things. Target outcome is aligned with obfuscating those things, you know, and leaving it to the person who comes after you. You know, that's not to say that all politicians or political parties, you know, would, if they were honest, frame it like that. You know, I think there is a lack of awareness as well. It's not just deceit, but it's a spectrum between the two for everyone individually involved and some are more on one end and some are more on the other. But it's very hard in this sort of governance system because, you know, you are, they are beneficiaries of the system as well. Yeah. Especially in some countries like the, like the U.S. where it's, it's, I think the U.S. and the U.K. are sort of quite contrasted in some of these things. The UK still feels very much more old world in terms of the separation of politics and lobbying and wealth creation for politicians, whereas perhaps that link is a lot stronger in the US or has been recently. And so, yeah, when all your incentives are just to keep the gravy train flowing, you're not going to change it. It's only really when your hand gets forced. I think like it was eventually happened in Argentina or in El Salvador, obviously for different reasons in both of those countries. But, you know, people want something different, but they want something different knowing that they're going to have to take the medicine with it because you can't have something different and things just continue the way they are. You know, it's, you know, it's like Milton Friedman says, you know, the, it's like alcoholism, you know, the best effects come first and then you've got to pay for it later, but you still have to pay for it. But, you know, I think there is, you know, game theory here allows some to pay a much lower price than others in terms of making this transition. If you are one of the, one of the earlier countries to make that transition, it can actually be a boon to you. The wealth of your country, the state of your economy, the outlook for you as a people versus coming later. Yes, it's challenging. It comes down to governance structures and everyone has a different opinion on those things. You're never going to get, you know, we're going to get everyone to agree. But if we can convince as many people as possible, and convince is the wrong word, if we can help as many people as Possible rationalize the absolute need for the separation of money and state in the same way that we've gone through a similar separation of church and state, you know, in the past in various countries. If we can get as many people to that logical position as possible, then making that next step becomes much easier. Because once you are in that position, the adoption of bitcoin is inevitable. And because it's a, you know, as a peaceful. It's a peaceful network, anybody anywhere can opt into. Just the gradual accumulation of people within the network will deliver the change inevitably anyway. But a much more gradual change is a less painful transition to go through than a change.
- [50:18]
Walker
Yeah, you know, it's so interesting. One of the parts of the video that really, I guess this wasn't a part per se, but it was just as the video was playing out. And I'm looking at the. The side with Satoshi, right? I'm looking at the. Basically the bitcoin standard side. And I couldn't help but think, man, imagine. Imagine the world that that could have been maybe if we had even just kept the gold standard. I mean, it was. Had its flaws, yes, but certainly better than what we have now. Right? But imagine what that world could look like, how much of those. And I loved how succinctly you were able to break down Jeff Booth's thesis from the Price of Tomorrow, because that's not an easy task to make that kind of information really click for people. Jeff obviously does an incredibly good job with it, and he's one of the people I just absolutely have the utmost respect for. That book I didn't find until I was on my bitcoin journey. But that opened up. That flipped on a whole new light switch for me, where I realized, wait a minute, technology is deflationary. Everything should be getting more expensive. That's such a simple statement. Or should be getting less expensive. But that's such a simple statement. But for some reason, I mean, there's a reason people love his book, because most people didn't think of it that way before. They didn't think that the natural state of a free market is deflationary, because we're still looking at everything from our existing system from within this fiat, you know, our fiat side of the island. But looking at that, you know, that bitcoin side and seeing, you know, kind of what. What could have been, what can still be, it made me. It was a mix of. Kind of a melancholy of, man, imagine how much further we could have gone by this time, you know, but at the same time, it was a mix of. Of hope as well, because, well, if the gold standard wouldn't have ended, if we would have had more responsible monetary policy, all these, you know, these last 50 years or so, or, I mean, and we can go back even before that. But let's talk about the, the. The true modern fiat was really after 71, right? But if we could have done that, maybe bitcoin wouldn't exist, or maybe it wouldn't exist yet. You know, maybe it would have taken another who knows how many years for somebody to come around. But the fact that Satoshi did what he did at that moment in time when they had just pressed the big red button again in the, you know, the great financial crisis, and I just thought that was. That was powerful. I don't even have a question there. I'm just like kind of talking through my own. My own conflicted experience there where I was like, well, I wish we could have had sound money for longer, but if we hadn't had a break from sound money, bitcoin may not exist right now in my lifetime. So, I don't know. Is that something you were actively thinking about as you were going through this, too? Is that. Do you know what I'm kind of getting at there? That weird mix of emotions?
- [53:21]
Joe Brian
It is, and it's an attractive place when you think about the world that Jeff Booth describes. It's a world of abundance for humanity. And I don't mean abundance necessarily in terms of, you know, we have all the consumer goods we want, do whatever you want. It's. That's not the, the abundance we're talking about because just by the definition of, you know, efficient capital allocation, you wouldn't have those things. You would have, you know, you'd have productive investment and, you know, a much better balance than we have today. And, you know, on the consumer side of things, because that comes as a function of the fact that our money is. Is decaying. But, yeah, I have thought at times, you know, about the sequencing of things. But invention, you know, what is the phrase that need is the mother of invention?
- [54:24]
Walker
Need or necessity is the necessity, depending on how you phrase it.
- [54:28]
Joe Brian
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, the fact that Satoshi, you know, it was third of Jan, 2009, like, almost. Almost at the very low, like the very worst point of the financial crisis when the big red button was just constantly pressed. Constantly pressed and really took us into a whole new realm of money printing on steroids for the last, you know, the last 15 years. Just the timing of that, of that creation is just it's just perfect really, in terms of like a story or, you know, if you were going to decide to launch something at some point in time, that you couldn't pick a better moment to do that. But I think what is, what's perhaps interesting about the story is that, you know, I've had very, very little pushback from anywhere on this and the only real areas are, I would say something like MMT type, of course, but, but, but, you know, to put this in context. So on YouTube right now, and YouTube is not X is the main place for, for this YouTube right now we have, it's just gone through 70,000 views and it's got about 4,000 likes and 99% of the likes are positive. Like the, the dislike button doesn't even show. It doesn't even highlight because there's like less than 50 dislikes. And it's like, okay, well if you, if we can put together a video that outlines the logic behind arriving at. Yeah, I need Bitcoin and 99% of the population. And I realize that people are going to shake their heads. It's not a fair sample, it's not an independent sample, but we're seeing more and more people who have not found bitcoin before seeing this, and they're still reacting in the same way. It gives me confidence that it's a structured argument and the other crowd is the gold crowd and, and their issue is not with the logic. Their, their issue is. Well, there's more than one solution here, you know, of course. And so, but, but even then, as you say, I would much rather be on a gold standard right now than what we have. So it's great guys, we all agree on. The problem is, you know, it's just if you prefer a slightly different solution, you know, I think ultimately you'll arrive when you've, you know, at the same solution that we think is correct. But you'll take your time and you know, and so yeah, yeah, I mean.
- [57:23]
Walker
The reception has been great and I'm going to link everything in the show notes as well. And even if folks have already watched it on X go and you know, give it a like on YouTube and subscribe to the channel and everything. Yeah, because that kind of stuff is helpful. And like, this is something I, with this show even I really like. I, I don't particularly like YouTube just because you are forced to be a little bit of a slave to that algorithm. Any centralized platform. Yes, this is true. But I feel that YouTube especially, like, got to have the thumbnail right Got to have the, you know, a Beatty, a Beaty title to it and things like that. If you want to get it into the, you know, the recommendation algorithm, which I just, I, I hate doing that. But it's also one of those things where you're like, well, this is what. YouTube is still one of the best ways to reach a broader audience of people who, many of which are not going to be bitcoiners. They, they may be just coming across this because they looked at a, you know, some dividend investing video, you know, just before, and maybe the algorithm throws it up to them next as they're. They're up next or they're on the, you know, the Watch page and something, it pops up for them. That's actually such a powerful thing. And those are the people that need to see this message so much because again, bitcoiners, you know, they, we, we understand like, we're, we're watching this saying, yep, like agree with this. I kind of know what you're going to say, but wow, it's put together really nice. I love this, you know, but for somebody new, if you're seeing this for the first time, this is something that could completely change your outlook on your life, I think, I mean, that's, I think that's what bitcoin has done for so many of us, right? And it's forced us to understand the problem. And I think for a lot of bitcoiners, it's. We, we didn't, you know, we, we went through it in a strange kind of ragged number of steps maybe where you, you know, start understanding bitcoin, then you start looking deeper into the problem, and then you start understanding the problem more and you start looking deeper into Bitcoin and kind of this back and forth. What I think you've done that's really powerful is you, you've kind of, you've simplified that process for people. So it's here, just, here's the problem. Let's agree on it now. Don't worry, don't have to be depressed the rest of your life. There is a solution. Here you go. You've made it quite convenient, honestly.
- [59:40]
Joe Brian
And then you can spend the next period of time putting meat on all the bones that you already have as a mental framework. Because I think one of the challenges that we find is, and I found it, and I would. That has the guess that other people have as well, is that just creating a clear picture in your mind around how all these things fit together, creating that flow diagram effectively mentally is what we do by consuming all the resources and they listen to all the talks and things. And so really what I've done is just try and download that and put it on a. Download what's in my head. And I know it's in your head. And I always said in all of our heads, we can get out there and just simplify it and save someone else the journey to construct it. Just give them the map to start with, and then once they've got the map, they can follow it just a lot faster than having to discover which parts of the map they need. You know, and like, like I was saying before, it's that over time, we just build more and more layers around the white paper to make it more and more accessible to people and. And shorten the gap that they have to make over which they have to make that mental leap.
- [60:50]
Walker
You know, I'm curious, Joe, because, you know, we were talking about just how nice that idea of the satoshi side of the island seems. You know, like, that seems like a place where I'd like to live. Hopefully it's a place where we do live someday on a large scale. But I'm curious, kind of your vision for the future, kind of what. What you see as we're obviously in a transitional period right now, right. And things may get worse, likely will get worse before they get better. What's kind of your thought process on how we hopefully eventually get to be living on that satoshi side of the island? What do you think that looks like? What's that journey? And I know that's a big question.
- [61:39]
Joe Brian
But big question asking also to predict the future.
- [61:44]
Walker
But just personally, I guess, how do you see it kind of, how do you see it evolving? There's no right or wrong answers. This. I think everyone has their own take, but where do you see us going from here? Does it get a lot worse before it gets better, or is there a different path?
- [62:02]
Joe Brian
I think you're going to see a lot of localized differences, because in my mind, bitcoin is inevitable. It is just a question of how long it takes in the various parts of the world, because the mechanics and the incentives and the security of it are set up in such a way that it is going to win. It is like we all know this, you know, we doubt it, you know, because we're still in the minority. And, you know, what if the government changes the rules or something like this, you know, but they can make changes. They can't actually impact you holding it. They can't actually impact who sending it to someone the only thing is that they can make you take steps to be non compliant, to use it non compliant with the arbitrary rules they put in place at any point in time, which is something for everyone to make their own choice over. But game theory will win in the end. And in the same way that we have arrived at the rationale that we need to own this thing, I think the complete exclusion of everything else, there is no second best. That is a logical consequence of putting the work in. And if, you know, everybody, once they put the work in, ends at that conclusion and then no one goes back. Ultimately everyone's at that conclusion, in which case it's came over. And so we already, we already know that's going to be the outcome here. And it's just a question of time and the path in which it takes. But there are, I think you can rely on human motivation and selfishness, which is, which is what I, is one of the aspects I love most about Bitcoin is that everyone, it's, it's fully designed to everyone to always operate in their own self interest and for the benefit of everybody else. I mean it's just, it's just the great. This is the greatest system. I mean, how can you fight that? How can you fight that and expect to win? You just can't. And so, you know, as this game theory plays out and each individual goes through that thought process, companies will become infected with that mindset with that thought process, governments will become infected at the thought process, that mindset. And the more that do, the more pressure it puts on everybody else to not be left behind. And it will be a gradual cleanup of the system, one piece of adoption at a time. And it will, you know, I think you'll get lockstep changes maybe in some areas, you know, where, you know, country announces we are going to make a major change, but it will likely come through accumulated pressure for some reason or another. But then once somebody pulls the trigger, then it becomes like a national security issue for other countries. You know, if and when hopefully, hopefully we see Bitcoin put front and center in the US And I don't just mean from a national strategic reserve, I mean creating an environment that is supportive of the adoption of bitcoin in a whole range of issues that puts that issue squarely on the table for every other government around the world to take a look at, a serious look at. Because it's not just some plaything anymore. They can't dismiss it as some money for criminals or something which is trying to evade sanctions or you know, whatever, whatever the current label they've decided to attach for that for that month is it becomes a national security issue. You know, it becomes an issue that should be discussed in the polls of power in every country because you're going to get left behind. And this is, this is a one time. This is a. You only play this game once. And so, yeah, I'm very optimistic for the future and it's not going to be without strife. But bitcoin has a wonderful ability to just make everything brighter. I feel like my life is much richer now, much more positive outcome. My decision making is better, helps you prioritize. The things that are important, are important in life. And I suspect most of us have gone through the same sort of personal journey alongside learning about bitcoin and the foundation of hard money. So we know that's also going to happen to other people. And maybe it does help improve decision making within government and the like. Because how can you become a bitcoin maxi and still think we should have big government interfering in everything? That seems like an unlikely outcome. So if everyone's going to become a bitcoin maxi, you've got to be betting that government interference is going to reach a better place. At least I hope to. I hope that's the case.
- [68:00]
Walker
I sincerely hope so as well. I hope that, and I believe that bitcoin will act as. I mean, because again, it's a change in incentives, right? It's a change in priorities. And the more and more people that opt into this, individuals freely opting in, but also companies, corporations, countries even, that forces a change on those who have not yet adopted it as well. And I think it's one of those things where I don't think that our current bloated, bureaucratic, kleptocratic, gerontocratic state was ever going to fix itself from the inside. I don't think that that was ever going to be possible. It's too far gone for that. I think that the only way that things ever get better from where we are right now is by an outside function forcing change on this system. From an external point of view, from this parallel system from the other side of the island, to use your metaphor, from the satoshi side of the island, forcing a change. Because enough people operating within the current system, the broken system, say, I can't. I don't want this anymore. This is terrible. Like, this isn't working for me. This is maybe working for a couple people who are closest to the, you know, have the closest proximity to the money printer. But it's not working for me and my family, nor for basically anyone I know. So I'm going to go over and opt into this other side where things seem to be working a lot better for people and they seem to have a better outlook on the future and they seem to have, you know, they, apparently they've got more purchasing power than I do. What the hell is going on over there? I would like to learn. And so I'm, I'm curious because I, right now I feel there's such an emphasis, understandably so, on corporate bitcoin adoption, on nation state bitcoin adoption, of course, this, this makes sense. First of all, these are the things that get the, the most clicks, the biggest headlines, the most views on YouTube, for example. But the video that you created, and this is one of the other reasons I liked it. It was focused on the individual. Like ultimately it was a message for the individual. And I'd just love to know what is your message to the individual right now, to the person out there who is maybe feeling that, wow, things aren't, something's rotten here, something's broken. Maybe they've heard of bitcoin, but maybe they're thinking, you know what, like, either I'm too late, we're at a, you know, 100 and some thousand dollars, however many pounds it is. And, and this, this isn't something that's going to help me. This is just for, you know, for the rich people now or for the companies or for the countries now. What, what's, what's your message to that individual?
- [70:43]
Joe Brian
We are so, so early. We are so incredibly early. I mean, you can test this for yourself. Just walk along the street and pick 10 people at random and say, why do we need bitcoin? I'd be amazed if anyone could tell you. It's very clear. We're just so early. I mean, the US there's a handful of countries which are actively looking at these things. Most of the world is totally asleep on it, Totally asleep. I mean, we know if we step through those things, like if we know everybody who puts the work in never goes back. And once you've put the work in, you never go back. You then never want to hold anything else. The natural consequence of that is over passage of time, everybody ends up in that position. And if everybody ends up in that position, you never want to hold anything else. Bitcoin consumes the entire world. And so $100,000 is nothing. It's nothing in the grand scheme of things. And it's also being measured in A frame of reference that is attached to the big red buttons. So you measure it in dollars. The more people that opt in to bitcoin and opt out of the fiatellos, the more fiatellos he has to print. And so bitcoin's going up forever. Bitcoin's going up forever. It's going to eat the entire world. And I think that we are. That you are late or you've missed the boat. Something. It's just human psychology to look at a number and think, well, it's a lot bigger than the number it was four years ago or eight years ago or 12 years ago. No, I do the work, watch the video, then go and watch those other videos, then read the books, then listen to lots of podcasts, really understand why, why? And you'll know this as well. It's like conviction is not something you switch on. Conviction is something that builds over time. And there's no way of building that conviction without doing the work, because it's great. When the price is going up, the price will go down as well and go down a lot. And you need to have the conviction that when that price does go down, you, you know why you're holding and you're happy that the price is going down because you can buy more of it. You can buy more of it for your Fiatlos. That's it. Because you know where it's going. And so you know, the sooner you can reach that point, the better. The best way of getting started is to learn. Just learn, consume information, learn, talk to people, try to explain it to people. And you'll get it wrong and just talk about it, you'll get it wrong and they'll pick holes and then you go back and you're okay, well, I need to understand that bit, but bit better. Join your local meetup groups. There's music groups all over. I cannot explain to you the number of emails I've had through the website over the last seven days. Hundreds and hundreds of emails from bitcoiners all over the world. You know, I, you know, I'm a bitcoiner in such and such a city in South America. I don't know any other bitcoiners. You know, I have seen this. I love it. I would like to get involved. And you know, and I'm like, I'm getting these from all over. Like, there are so many. There's so, so many. It's like sleeper cells everywhere. You know, these people who are, you know, little islands dotted around the world who are just not part of Active communities. So, yeah, join. Join your local meetup. Start a local meetup. You know, even if it's just you and, you know, send an email. We'll try and find somebody else to join you in the pub. You know, you could talk about Bitcoin and then maybe the two of you can find a third person or something like that. It's again, it just gives you an indication of how early we are, how early we are with this stuff. I have no doubt we're going to win.
- [75:05]
Walker
Amen to all of that. First of all, I think that that's. It is such a good point about conviction that, like, I think, you know, if you're from the outside looking in and you see somebody, you know, like somebody I think of a lot with just massive conviction and, you know, giant balls of steel. Is American Hodl, or American Hodl as he identifies. But, you know, how did he build that conviction? It's by continuing to do the work for years, by living through those incredibly difficult times when he saw his net worth fluctuate massively, by dealing with all of the friends and the family and the people on the Internet telling him that you're wrong. That's either going to break you because your conviction, perhaps at the beginning was very weak and you didn't do enough work to understand what you were holding, or it's going to make you so uber convicted that you are in this till the end. Right? Like win or lose, I think we both assume win. I know Hodl does as well, but like, that's. It's such an important thing. And to your other point about just talking with people about this, some of the best ways that I've found of making myself better at explaining both what the problem is and what the solution is, I. E. Bitcoin has been through just conversations with like old friends of mine or family members, people who are not deep down the rabbit hole yet, but are people I respect, highly intelligent people who are good at poking holes in things. And me realizing, huh, you know what, Actually fair critique. I feel like I should be able to respond to this better. But I didn't, you know, my response didn't feel that convincing even to me. So, okay, I need to go deeper into this. I need to do more work. I need to understand what are all of the different problems, pain points, whatever that people are going to throw at me. And I think that ultimately that helps, has helped me so much on my own journey through this was just those conversations. It's very easy to just get caught in an online Bubble where you're just talking about NGU all the time. But it's like one thing I've tried to do. And I know there's varying opinions on this, but you want to, of course, try and help your friends, your family, those that you love the most that are closest to you in the real world. You want to help them to understand why. It's not because them buying is going to make any material difference to you. It's not. Unless your friends or family is like a Michael Saylor. Maybe that makes a material difference. But for most of us, they're average people. But it makes a difference because you care about them. You want them to be protected from the theft that, you know, is inherent in our current system. I mean, it comes from a place of love, ultimately. Right. A lot of us also sometimes get disillusioned with some of that. And then you have to realize that, okay, not everybody is ready to hear about the solution yet. And oftentimes I found that that was because I didn't do a good enough job of telling them what's the problem or what's the problem for them. Because not everybody feels the pain of inflation the same.
- [78:19]
Joe Brian
You know, that's the key. Making it relevant to their own lives like that. Finding that pain point and helping them understand where that came from.
- [78:30]
Walker
Yeah, yeah. No, it's. Making things personal for people is, I think, one of the biggest things that you can do to actually help somebody understand that there is a problem. And this is what I found with my own friends. Many of them are in traditional finance work for big banks or financial institutions do quite well. Me talking about asset inflation isn't going to be a good road for them because they love asset inflation. I'm not going to get them that. Me talking about that this is going to overthrow obsolete banks isn't very appealing to them. They all work for banks. So you have to find a different angle there. And I think that's a challenge. But again, just back to your video, what I like about it is that I think that the way that you laid things out, I think that it's very hard for people from any set of diverse backgrounds to refute your problem statement. And that takes some skill for the way you crafted that. And I'm sure some people will, or the MMT ers will, because they'll say, well, this problem, actually maybe we need two big red buttons and we should be pressing that big red button even more. I'm kind of curious. Can you share some of the critiques that you got From, I'll say critiques and from MMT folks. I mean, because they're an interesting lot.
- [79:58]
Joe Brian
I'll say, honestly, it's only been a couple of comments. Been like, well, you've obviously never heard of MMT. Literally, like, that's, that's been the comment in YouTube. But, you know, that's, that's, that's it. That's it. So I couldn't even, I couldn't even go to explain what, you know, the structure of their argument against this other than just throw the cost.
- [80:19]
Walker
They probably couldn't either, to be honest. You know, they're just like, well now public sector, you know, deficit is private sector surplus or something else. Stephanie Kelton said that I thought sounded smart when I read it. Like.
- [80:31]
Joe Brian
But, but what?
- [80:32]
Walker
That's a mind blowing position to me.
- [80:35]
Joe Brian
Yeah, but I know and, and to, to many of us. But, but I also hope just by going through the story and it being logical that they can similarly go through the logic and agree with it. And if they go through the logic and agree with it, then maybe they question some of those other assumptions. And so I think, you know, I want to frame the video in, you know, a wrapper of positivity for everybody. This is not about, you know, anyone's views, political views, or where you are in the world. This is everybody, like, everybody is subject to this. Like, we can all be on the same team about the big red button, you know, very easily. And if we're all on the same team by then we can do something about it, you know. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. But I would encourage, if people haven't watched it, I would love them to watch it. So I hit my microphone there. I would, I would love them, I would love them to watch it and remember that they're, they're not necessarily the audience. I made it for people who were not bitcoiners. I made it for everybody. And so I really want bitcoiners to have to be able to put this in their pocket and be able to send it to the people they care about and just watch that it's the most gentle orange pill. And then they'll come back hopefully and say, okay, well, that was interesting. You tell me a bit more about such and such, and then you've got the conversation started. And then you could, you know, send them a truckload of material or whatever it is they ask for. But yeah, just, just meeting people where they are with the problems they have and helping them work through the logic to come to where you are a bit faster even with a skeletal overview, skeletal framework. It's a great place for us to be is as bitcoiners, if we can just very quickly. Orange pill people. So we start having a conversation on sensible terms. Yeah. And, and let me know how it goes as well. I've actually. The best thing is on X when somebody messages me or post and said like, I've shared it with like 40 people. This is fantastic. And you know, or one guy messaged and said, I've just had the best conversation I've ever had with my daughter, my teenage daughter, because now she understands, she understands why I'm so passionate about this, like. And we've ended up having conversation about it and she understands. It's like, this is brilliant. This is brilliant. Like you're here's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One guy, one guy posted and said, do you. Do you want your girlfriend to say wtf happened in 1971? And your mum to say, fix the money, fix the world? Then you need to watch this video.
- [83:57]
Walker
That's amazing.
- [83:58]
Joe Brian
That just happened to me. And so it's. That's amazing. It's brilliant. And so, you know, hopefully it can, you know, I've seen lots of, you know, blogs and websites and, you know, node runners have put it in their website as well. And so I hope the video just gets embedded in lots of places and people are free to, you know, be creative with, you know, more and more memes and stuff like that coming out and. Yeah, it's wonderful. Let's, let's, let's get the big red button and fiat hello into. Into existence. It's, you know, something very clear that people. Very clear story and things that people can, can get on. It's just, it's just so strange walk. I mean, seeing something I made with memes, like coming out of it, it's just. Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. I haven't stopped smiling.
- [84:55]
Walker
I mean it's, it's amazing to see and I think that the reception is well deserved and it, I mean it's, it's an honest reception. It's. People are identifying with this video. They're finding this video useful. They're finding it as a missing piece of their own, let's say educational arsenal that they can share confidently. That is going to be appealing to people across the spectrum and I think that that's really powerful. And I'll link your YouTube and I'll link the video as well. I encourage people to check that out. You did confirm that you are on NOSTR as well. Do you Want to maybe. Just where do you want to send people? Just. I'll put it up. Everything you say here, I'll make sure to put in the show notes. But if you just want to rattle off where people should find you.
- [85:38]
Joe Brian
Yeah, so on X and Noster, we have the same handle. So my handle is atmojo and that's J O E and it's at Sats versus Fiat. So Sats versus F I A T and that's on X and Noster. And that's Also the website satspersasphiat.com where you can send people, you can watch the video, they can get resources. You don't have to sign up or anything like that. You can subscribe if you want, but it's entirely optional if we ever send, you know, additional material in the future. And yeah, just, just let us know how you get on, you know, and especially if you speak different languages and would love to translate this, you know, every. Pretty much every day I'm putting two or three more languages live from bitcoiner contributions and you can access them via the settings wheel at the bottom of the YouTube video and then native subtitles. So they should make sense. And again, it's iterative, so if you see something that should be done better or improved, then just drop us a note via the website and then we'll just get it changed and improve for everybody else. So I would say Walker as well. I, I intend. I'm trying to get back above, above water with all, like replying to everybody. And I'm not far away from doing that. So if anybody send me a message, I haven't replied yet, it will be soon, please bear with me. But we're going to make all of the material open to everybody. And so the plan is to extend the website, put the presentation there, the speaker notes, the transcripts, and then hopefully do that for a bunch of languages. And so the community is welcome to take it and then go and give presentations to meetups or schools or whoever, wherever, whenever, and try and bring as many people along as possible. And then I hope there's more and more community involvement and so this becomes a thing and, you know, I'm just a part of the community as opposed to the one staying up all night replying to the emails and trying to try to push it forward.
- [87:50]
Walker
Yeah, I love that you're making all the material available too, because I think this is, this is a great thing for people to be able to, you know, hey, you want to sit your family down and give them the presentation instead of sending them the video, you know, by all means, go for it, but I think that's great. Just to confirm too, the YouTube is sats versus fiat or it's sats mojo.
- [88:11]
Joe Brian
Sats versus fiat. Yeah.
- [88:12]
Walker
Okay. Awesome.
- [88:16]
Joe Brian
Satmo, Joe, is, is my personal thing and you know. Yeah, they are, they are, they are separate. I'll see.
- [88:25]
Walker
Well, Joe, this has been really a pleasure chatting with you. I want to thank you again for, for making this video. I think it's, it's. It is the. It is the best bitcoin video I have seen in a very long time and I think that it is so accessible for people. I. If you haven't watched it yet, I highly encourage you to do so share it with your friends and family or strangers on the Internet. Either way, just get.
- [88:48]
Joe Brian
Anybody there? Anybody.
- [88:50]
Walker
Yeah, exactly. And it's a video, I think that came at a really great time because there's a lot of people as this Overton window has shifted that are going to be asking a lot more questions and looking for more answers. And I think this video does a really great job. So I just want to thank you for the work that you put into it. You did something really special here.
- [89:08]
Joe Brian
Well, thank you. I'm blown away by the reception. Thank you for everyone spending 39 minutes watching, watching this, Giving it a chance and Walker Force that have me on this podcast. It's a real pleasure and I've, I've loved the last hour and a half talking to you, so thank you very much.
- [89:24]
Walker
Likewise. And hopefully we can, we can do this in, in person sometime. That'd be a blast. Hope to, hope to see you around and yeah, till then, keep up, keep up the great work and hopefully you can get out from under the mountain of replies that I'm sure you're working your way through.
- [89:38]
Joe Brian
Yeah, well, me too. Me too. All right, thanks a lot.
- [89:43]
Walker
Thanks so much. Cheers.
- [89:44]
Joe Brian
See ya.
- [89:52]
Walker
And that's a wrap on this bitcoin talk episode of the bitcoin podcast. If you are a bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring the bitcoin podcast, head to bitcoin podcast.com net sponsor or send an email to hello Bitcoin podcast.net. if you are enjoying the bitcoin podcast and find it valuable, give it a boost on Fountain a five star review wherever you're listening. Or better yet, share this show with your network so more people can learn about bitcoin. Or don't. Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it. You can grab links in the show notes to watch or list this show wherever you get your podcasts or or go to bitcoin podcast.net podcast and you'll also find the links to Follow me and the show on Noster and on X. Bitcoin is scarce. There will only ever be 21 million, but Bitcoin podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.