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THE Bitcoin Podcast
BITCOIN NEWS ROUNDUP: JACK DORSEY'S PROTO RIG, MICHAEL SAYLOR BUYS, TRUMP/BESSENT, HARDVARD IBIT, & MORE
01:08:16
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- [00:00]
A
Jack Dorsey's block launches Proto Miner, the greatest bitcoin miner of all time. Michael Saylor's strategy continues to gobble up bitcoin at never before seen rates. Toxic bitcoin maxis force US Treasury Secretary Bessen to walk back comments made about the government not buying bitcoin. The top 100 bitcoin treasury companies now collectively own almost 1 million bitcoin. Harvard University reveals they own over $100 million in the IBIT Bitcoin ETF and the Ethereum co founder and some British guy compete to see who of the month. I'm Walker America and this is the Bitcoin news roundup on the Bitcoin podcast. Welcome to the bitcoin news roundup on the Bitcoin lo dudes. Thanks for joining. This is somewhat impromptu for anybody who is on Nostr already watching. Thanks for joining and for everybody listening later to this after the fact you should check out Nostr so you can actually listen to these things live. But we are going to do a news roundup of sorts and we're kind of picking and choosing. We're not going to make it through all the news. There's very serious journalists who do a much better job at the news than we ever will, like Natalie Brunel. So if you want real news from a real journalist, go check out her show. But for what I think our purposes are we're going to do a little bit of drinking, we're going to do a little bit of talking through stuff and we're just going to have a good old time with it. So I think maybe where we start off with this is, I mean since we were talking about, about mining already, Jack Dorsey, his block company just launched the Proto miner which is honestly pretty sweet. So their whole thing is like made in America. And I'll pull up, I'll pull up their site as well just so you guys, everyone can see this. But it like this thing looks pretty damn cool and the fact that they are like actually doing this in America I think is awesome. We need more of that. Obviously a huge issue with mining generally is just that there is a huge dependency on Chinese manufacturers which like sure it's like worked out like kind of, you know, fine for now but that's just like obviously a, you know, kind of a big potential issue. And so now these guys are like really doing a great job of decentralizing that mining. I don't know why this isn't loading. Maybe their site's getting just slammed right now. Let's see, let's Go back to the old homepage. There we go. It's very nicely designed. I'll bring up some other stuff on this though. But basically, as far as I understand it, and maybe you guys have gone deeper into it, but their whole idea was like, let's make this thing as modular as possible so that we can not need to completely refab an entire data center when you want to replace your miners. Instead, you can just kind of plug and play with different components which can be independently upgraded. And it's one of those things where it's like, well, yeah, duh. Why wasn't that just kind of the standard before? But I guess it's one of those things where it's like, nobody does it until somebody does it. And now I hope this does kind of become very much a, a standard here. But from what, from what Jack said about it, his goal is to make. He's already saying, I guess not. Not his goal, but it's that this is going to be the basically greatest miner of all time. Greatest bitcoin miner of all time. There you heard it here first from Jack. I should probably like this from the old bitcoin podcast account. I don't know. What do you guys think about this? Like, to me, this is a super, just like cool development. Like there's all the NGU stuff and everybody likes the number going up. But I love to see like, Jack's been on a roll lately, obviously between his. His bitch at his sun app blocks, doing great things. Personally, I love to see this. I think it's great. And the more of this stuff that gets done in America, I think the better. You know, anytime we can reduce our reliance on foreign frenemies, I think that's a good thing. But love to hear what you guys think.
- [04:34]
B
As an ee, I love this. And I think that he's onto something. I actually used to work at Black and Decker, so I used to design like their battery and Bluetooth, like char and charger systems. So it's kind of interesting how, how this is going to play out market wise because it's like actually sometimes you actually lock. You get vendor lock in benefits from getting people to kind of design around your system. Like that's a big part of, you know, they'll give away a lot of dewalt batteries and other stuff to, to kind of achieve that. So from like a market's perspective, I'm curious how that plays out. And obviously modular design is great. It's way less wasteful. I can't believe, as you said, I can't believe somebody's not done this yet. And then you add in the geopolitics aspect. It's like, if you're an American, do you really want to potentially introduce a backdoor into your, into your system that could leak hash power? I'm not saying that actually has happened yet, but the more and more you rely on foreign suppliers, like the worse it gets. Having been at Black and Decker, I've seen they've stolen so much of our stuff. Dude, they've done so many weird, messed up deals. Like dealing with foreign contractors is a damn nightmare in manufacturing. So I think it's awesome being able to, you know, just fly into Georgia and check out the production line. It probably has a lot of benefits for American miners. So I love to see it.
- [05:54]
C
Yeah, I think it's sick. I think, you know, some people give Jack a, a tough time online for, you know, various parts of his career but. And the guy just stays creating cool shit. He's the definition of an entrepreneur. So like you said this and then bitch at like, don't doubt him. I would say that.
- [06:11]
A
No. Amen. And like again, I think this is just really reading through some of this. Like you hear right from the top, you know, with modular hardware and software that simplifies, Proto shares a fresh new take on what mining can be. So I mean I love to see this and I love that they're also open sourcing this whole fleet management side of it. Like that's very much in line with I think Jack's, you know, developer ethos. Right. This is a very positive development. We want, you know, obviously we're all, we're all Americans. We may be a little bit biased but like I want to see more of this stuff happening in America. I want more opportunities for like actual, you know, not just software to be made here, which we do a lot of, but for hardware to be made here. And that's what a lot of the stuff that we have, you know, consistently been pushing offshore, pushing offshore, searching for cheaper and cheaper labor. And it's like, could they do this elsewhere? Sure, they could. And could they do it cheaper? Sure. But like I think it's a, it says a lot about the long term vision of an organization. If they're willing to take a bit of a short term hit and kind of do what they believe is right by their customers and let's say by their, their country as well. And to make that investment in the long term, even if it does maybe isn't quite as sweet for your bottom line in the Short term. So, so I, I, I love seeing that. And again, they're, you know, they're pointing out here. Like we heard during our explorations, we heard from mining operators that legacy hardware is not optimized for a lot of existing infrastructure. Shoebox machines often leave power unused at the wall hash rate, limited by the amount of space a machine can take up on Iraq. And upgrading from one generation to the next means e with entirely new machines. Proto rig is designed to solve for rack space density, get the most out of existing electrical infrastructure and make upgrades extremely easy and efficient. So I think that's sweet. They fit, let's see, fits three miners worth of boards in the space of two legacy miners, delivering more than 1.5 times the power per foot of rack space compared to the most efficient shoebox miners on the market. That's great to see and I hope that we see more of this. You want as much competition in this space as possible. And especially as it comes to like, you know, I think a lot of people who are at least deep in the bitcoin space are aware that there's a huge issue with, you know, mining pool centralization, block template creation centralization, and also with the, you know, the hardware supply chain vulnerability because of its centralization. And it's like this is at least addressing, you know, one of those. Also, you know, obviously Jax, a supporter of Ocean and that kind of addresses one of the other components of that. So I don't know, I love to see it. I hope we see more of this. And I don't know, the rigs like they, they look pretty sweet too. So like anytime you can make like a sexy piece of hardware like that, just, you know, you'd rather buy something that looks good than something that that doesn't. And if it works even better, like, well, it's a win, win the iPhone effect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [08:57]
B
To add to what you're saying about competition, I think one part you went over, but the fact that it's open source at the, at the fleet management level I think is huge because being in Texas, you meet a lot of miners. That's where a lot of the hash rate is. Even small miners, like, I was really surprised they'll hire a software team to like manage this stuff. And you just wonder like, is there some kind of inefficiency there? And also is there going to be a Cambrian explosion of new innovation there that might actually be the secret weapon that takes it to another level?
- [09:28]
A
Yeah, and it's like if you, if you're providing, you Know, people are going to be incentivized to, to get your rigs. If like you're providing something that is going to cut down on ultimately like the refab costs of these facilities, that's huge. Like, if you're, you know, you need to spend millions and millions of dollars to build up a factory to fit a certain spec for the miners that you have. And then a couple of years later you need to upgrade your miners and then upgrade your whole facility as well. It's like you're basically starting from scratch. Like that. That's, that's not an ideal situation. You do not want that. So I think feel like this, like it's not only good just from like a, you know, Made in America, but it's like just genuinely good from a business perspective. Like this is a, you know, people are going to want this. And I think that's.
- [10:07]
B
You guys ever read the Blue Ocean strategy?
- [10:10]
A
No, what's that?
- [10:11]
B
It's like this idea that a lot of, A lot of industries that they, they trend toward a red ocean, which means everyone, like it's kind of saturated and they end up competing on cost. I love how Jack kind of took a whole whole new approach to this and was like, okay, we'll re emphasize these parts. Maybe we'll de. Emphasize these parts and come together. And so it seems like based on what I've seen, maybe they're not quite as good on joules per terra hash, but they've attacked other cost centers like the opex. So less so on the energy side, but more on like the OPEX stuff. And you figure like, probably next they're going to figure out how, how can we slam more joules per terahash through this thing? And then, you know, by the second or third generation they'll be like, probably even, you know, even further ahead on that stuff. So like, that's kind of an amazing approach to this and I'm really curious to see how it plays out.
- [11:02]
A
Yeah, Rob Warren had a great, great thread kind of breaking that down as well. He's like, well, you know, while everyone has been wrestling over how to squeeze another joule per terahash out of the newest generation Miner Proto rebuilt the farm from the machine level up and you know, it goes, I don't have to drain this thread. I can link it, link it in the old show notes afterwards for folks who want to. But like, you know, he basically breaks down. The three largest expenses miners will incur are facility builds and retrofits, electrical costs and machine purchases and maintenance. So this is basically, you know, this is addressing a lot of that. You run into a serious problem years down the road. Machine size, power draw and footprint change. So then you have massive retrofit costs. Like that's not ideal, you know. And especially because like mining is such a competitive industry. Like you like not only do you need to find the cheapest electricity you possibly can, it's like you don't want to be spending extra money retrofitting a factory if you don't have to. Like that, that, that hurts, you know. And so it's like these guys, you know, Proto has done something different. They treated the, the chassis of the machine as farm infrastructure and allow you to hot swap boards, fans and power supplies as technology advances. Like that to me is like, like that's brilliant. And I think that's like really kind of a game changer and it just pushes everyone else in the industry to kind of like oh shit. Like look what these are guys are doing. Like this is setting a new standard in my opinion.
- [12:18]
C
Yeah, it, it and it, it really reminds me kind of of what Elon Musk did with, with manufacturing. He kind of revolutionized the, the manufacturing process for electric cars where no one can still do it. And he's gotten such a leg up on everybody from doing it. This is kind of similar to that in a bit more bitcoin mining fashion.
- [12:36]
A
No doubt. Is there anything else, anything else we want to cover on that before we, we jump onto the next one here? Because. And again guys, for anybody listening live to this on ZAP Stream, first of all, hello. And we are just figuring this out as we go. Maybe actually before we jump into the next one, do you guys just want to do like a super quick introduction of yourselves? Because that just, you know, just so that you're not, you know, talking heads up here, Jim, if you want to go for it.
- [13:00]
B
Okay. Yeah. My name is Jim Karuchi. I'm a Austin based bitcoiner and entrepreneur. I work out a pleb lab slash Austin Bitcoin Park Austin every day. So you know, deep in the, the community here and you know, we were just talking about modular design. I build modular AI systems and then I repurpose them and do a bunch of different things. Such as. Pull that up, Jamie. AI and other systems.
- [13:22]
A
Right on.
- [13:22]
C
Yeah. I'm Matt McBride. I'm based out of Kent Island, Maryland. You might have seen me on X. I've been rucking for a bitcoin job for 19 rucks now. I don't know how many weeks it's been But I've been working with Walker behind the scenes. He's a cool ass dude. Gave me an opportunity to work with him. Just out here trying to find my home in the bitcoin space and spread the joy of bitcoin to the world. That's my mission. I quit my fiat job and I'm all in and ready to rock.
- [13:52]
A
I love it, guys. And yeah, this was, you know, somewhat impromptu. Like I haven't done these new shows in a while and I was doing them solo before and that's just like, not nearly as fun. Nobody wants to hear me talk by myself for that long and that's not why they come here. So, like, I think this, this format works better as always. Like if it can be a way to help, you know, elevate my fellow plebs in any way, that is something that I am all about. So let's, let's talk about some folks that are definitely not plebs, which is our treas secretary Scott Besant. Or Besant, I'm still not sure how you pronounce it. So basically for those who maybe if you're on Nostra only and you're not caught up in all the Twitter drama du jour, basically Besant made a comment on Fox yesterday. I'll just share the screen, but I won't share the audio here because honestly, I don't know how. So I'll just tell you what he said. But essentially he, and this was my very obviously inflammatory tweet that went pseudo viral about this. But he basically was talking about, okay, we're not going to revalue the gold to its current, you know, it's, it's right now valued at like, you know, it's had the same value of like whatever, $42 or something like that per ounce for, for decades. And you know, they haven't revalued it to kind of, you know, market, to the current market price. So we're not going to do that. And like, he did say about bitcoin, he was like, this is a, you know, a store of value for the first century. And it's like, okay, yeah, yeah, that's, that's great. Like store value for the American people for the 21st century. Awesome. Agreed. But then he made a comment saying that the not be buying any bitcoin specifically. He said like, we won't be buying any of that, but we will continue to confiscate it. And you know, we have our confiscated bitcoin already. He says that's about 10 or 15 to 20 billion dollars worth. But he said, we're not going to be buying any more of it. We'll just keep confiscating. And if we do that, we know we're not going to sell any, which is like, fine. But the problem is here that this is different than what they said in the executive order, which was that they would look for budget neutral ways to acquire more bitcoin. Now, I personally think I believe in the art of pleb peer pressure. And so this is where I felt the need to kind of come in and make a really inflammatory tweet and, you know, blow it up. And a lot of other folks did, too. And then what was amazing about this is we then saw some. Some capitulation. Let me, let me find this here. There we go. So he clarified the comment literally like a couple hours later, basically saying that bitcoin that has been finally forfeited to the federal government will be the foundation of the strategic bitcoin reserve that President Donald Trump established in his March executive order. In addition, treasury is committed to exploring budget neutral pathways to expand the reserve and to execute on the president's promise to make the United States the, quote, bitcoin superpower of the world. So, like, clearly somebody. There was enough backlash to this that somebody at the Trump admin was like, listen, dude, people are pissed because you just said we're not going to be buying any bitcoin. You need to, like, go back and clarify, you know, that we're still holding to the text of the executive order, like, this is still what we're doing. He did that. And I think, like, it's honestly just a. It's a great example of the fact that, like, bitcoiners are very, like, loud and obnoxious when we see things that are incorrect. And we are growing in our political power and influence because our economic power is growing. And that naturally lends itself to more influence. Like, to see, you know, it's a good reminder that if you see something that you're like, that doesn't. That doesn't quite smell right, just make a big stink about it online. And politicians tend to pay attention to that because if they, like, they. They do not want to deal with a scandal of any kind. And so I thought this was a great illustrative lesson in. In plebs getting together to shame our government into sticking to their word. Now, I personally don't give a flying fuck if the US Government, like, actually buys bitcoin. Like, they need bitcoin, doesn't need the US Government. The US government needs bitcoin. Bitcoin doesn't need politicians. Politicians need bitcoin. That being said, again, as an American, I know every country in the world is eventually going to buy bitcoin. I would like it if my country did it first. So at least, you know, stick to your budget neutral pathways. But curious to hear your guys take on this. Yeah, lay it on me.
- [18:02]
C
Yeah. You know, politics is politics, right? How many times have they said something and then walked it back two hours later and then they'll walk it back again two days later and it's like, what the hell's going on? But like you said, the power of plebs. I mean, I do think that people remember that bitcoiners played a major role in this presidential election. And just maybe when we, when we get loud like that, it's, it's a little quicker to the point now.
- [18:27]
B
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I like Malwalker. I don't really give a fuck whether or not they buy. Like in a way it'd be kind of funny if they didn't buy. Like it's funny that some random guy sold 80k coins and he has like almost as many as the US Government. Like that's pretty insane.
- [18:43]
A
Yeah.
- [18:43]
B
You know, is the largest, most powerful government in the world is like poorer than that guy. But you know, it's funny, we had, we had the privilege of having Angela McArdle come through pleb lab the other day and that was kind of, that, that was like the day the storm verdict came down and we were all pretty black pilled and she came in and delivered some pretty big white pills, I would say. And basically just explaining how much power we have and how like, you know, if we play our cards right, even if we like do it through the Libertarian Party, like we can force pretty serious concessions through the Republicans and that would be massive. Like if we're just, if we're just like a swing vote and we just force one party to be better, that's, that's a lot of power. Like we couldn't imagine that, you know, 10 years ago where we were just getting steamrolled. So things are changing for the better in some ways. I think we got to be vigilant. I think we can't just let them, you know, buddy, fuck us and like kind of say one thing and do another. So that's why what you did is really important. But I think it's a big white pill that we have a lot of agency here.
- [19:45]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think that point of like, bitcoiners being a faction that can operate as a really meaningful swing vote and kind of already having that proof of concept from the last election. Like, you know, Trump may have been able to win regardless, but, man, bitcoiners were a big swing in his favor. And I think that that's, like, that's becoming more apparent to folks on the left. And it would be very wise of them to learn from that and to adjust their strategy. We'll see if they actually, you know, they actually do, or if they just, you know, double down and keep saying that, you know, bitcoin and Trump and Trump Coin are all the same thing. But, you know, it really, like, it doesn't matter at the end of the day, you know, bitcoin doesn't care. However, it's obviously better to be in a regulatory structure where bitcoiners are respected, where people's rights to freely transact and to, you know, to do so in a manner that they see fit respected. And we want more of that. Like, what I keep saying is, like, you'd rather have, you know, government full of Cynthia Lummises than you would a government full of Elizabeth Warren's. Like, take it, take it to the extreme. Like, which, which one do you want? Like, you'd rather have the Cynthia Lummises because they're on, they're on your side at least. And so I think that we, we're going to see more and more pandering to bitcoiners, not just for their campaign contributions, but, but also for obviously, you know, their mimetic strength. You mentioned also the Roman Storm verdict. Do you want to talk about that at all? This was obviously just kind of came down. But he got a guilty verdict, right? For conspiracy to operate an unlicensed money transmitting business, essentially. I think he got a not guilty count on the conspiracy to violate U.S. sanctions. So at least there's that. But this is just one of those, to me, this is one of those examples of the law being so far behind technology. Like, technology is always going to move faster than the law. And clearly, like, this is just kind of a ridiculous, like, ridiculous situation where a guy wrote open source software and then is going to be put in jail for writing that. Because in, under weird definitions of existing law, people can be made to believe that he was somehow operating an unlicensed money transmitting business, even though he, he wasn't. I don't, I don't know where you guys are at on that. I find it so absurd.
- [22:00]
B
So when that came, I found out about, like, I found out that morning about it. And what was weird was that Angela came in like that afternoon to just kind of have like an informal meet and greet with a bunch of different bitcoin entrepreneurs. And she had just gotten off the phone with him and she was saying that he's pretty upbeat and that they think they'll probably be able to get him a pardon based on, like, that. That, you know, liaison they have. Like. Like knock on what. I'm not trying to jinx it or anything, but it does seem like that can happen. But that goes back. This goes back to why we need to put pressure on people. Like Ross isn't free if we don't put pressure on the Libertarian Party, plus, you know, plus a bunch of other people, plus a bunch of people giving money, you know, like. Like that's really important and think. I think that case is crazy because it's pretty much a. You know, we thought that Kamala was going to go after the First Amendment, but that's really like a First Amendment violation. And in the Bernstein versus versus US case in the Ninth Circuit in the 90s, that was like the original cypherpunk case that showed that like encryption and software is. Is speech. I think it's a really bad precedent that they're trying to go down this path. And I think there's a lot of like, rogue DOJ people in there because this goes in direct defiance of the Blanche memo. That's the deputy Attorney general saying, like, we're not going to pro. We're not going to do legislation by prosecution. I mean, at a minimum, I think there has to be a change of culture where it's not like we're just gonna arrest you. It should at least be a warning shot of like, hey, we suspect that there's messed up stuff happening through your servers. Like, at least give them a warning shot to shut it down. Like, it's very bad faith, in my opinion, that their first move is to just go seize their. Their servers in Iceland and arrest them. Like, that's ridiculous.
- [23:45]
A
And it was the same treatment essentially as with the. With the samurai devs, right? Like, this is basically, you know, the, you know, different cases obviously, but similar treatment where it's like, it's kind of like, you know, arrest first and ask questions later and, you know, tell them what, you know, what version of the law you're slapping them with in this case. And these, these like, these money transmitter laws and all of this entire AML kyc, you know, Patriot act regime is just like, it's just so fundamentally like anti American and anti freedom and just this, this presupposition that everyone is a criminal and should be treated as such regardless of the situation. I mean, sadly, most people still don't pay attention to bitcoin. Most people, even more people aren't going to pay attention to these cases. But they're really important and it does set a pretty dark precedent and I hope, I mean, it'd be great to see pardons issued in these cases. You would think that there would be some desire for that from the Trump admin. I mean, given that these are some like last vestiges of that Biden admin and kind of that operation choke point 2.0, you know, like tentacles, you know, getting out into every little bit of the, you know, the crypto verse. So I don't know, but damn, like, it's rough. It's rough for these guys. I cannot imagine.
- [24:59]
C
Yeah, people. People fear what they don't understand. It doesn't matter what level they're at. I think we all know the level of education on this stuff for those people is minimal. So whether it's from previous administration or not, they don't know what they're doing when it, when it comes to this stuff. So naturally it's going to be us versus them. We'll take it and figure it out later. Which is super unfortunate and super sad.
- [25:20]
B
Yeah. And one, one thing I want to harp on, I was actually listening to your pod with Gary Walker earlier. I was making clips and stuff with Pull that Up Jamie AI. But you know, both of your experiences I thought was interesting on Capitol Hill. So, like, his experience was pretty positive because he was able to hone in on like a problem that she had, which was consumer protection. She, one of the stat. One of the U.S. senator staffer, you know, had had her debit card stolen or something and had to go through that whole rigmarole. So. So showing her the lightning network and how great it is that it operates like cash, but you get the convenience of digital like that. That's amazing. And then you contrast it with your interaction with Dirty Dick Durbin and you're like, you're like, you know. And he was basically conflating bitcoin and crypto and calling you guys all scammers. And this is why we need to bully scammers and altcoiners even harder, make sure that the distinction is even more apparent. It's like he totally shut down the conversation with you over him thinking that bitcoin and crypto are the same. Where it's really not even close to the same. And this goes back to learning tools for persuasion, how to change your pitch based on who you're talking to. I'm in Austin. I'm frequently behind enemy lines and. And you know, a lot of the time the pitch is like, this is human rights money. Like, this isn't. This isn't like a speculation. This is just like a. This is us fighting for human rights in the digital age. And when you pitch it that way, it's much more palatable to people that are more left leaning. Obviously the right. Right leaning people have a different pitch. I think bitcoin is pretty good at that one. But I think people should practice changing the pitch a little bit based on who you're talking to and trying to relate it to real problems they have in their life. And also trying to separate bitcoin from crypto.
- [27:04]
A
That was one of our biggest takeaways from the day, was like, we're not going to get much across these people because they're starting from such a. Whether it's staffers or the policy, you know, policymakers themselves, they're starting from such a low level of understanding. But if there's one thing you can get across, it's really important to. It's bitcoin does not equal crypto. Donald. Donald Trump's token and Melania's token, those are not bitcoin. They have nothing to do with bitcoin. It is so you saying Orange man bad. And look at this crypto bitcoin token he made. It's like, no, no, no, no. Like, these are separate things. This has literally nothing to do with each other. But then there's also like, the fact that, like, Dick Durbin's like 83 years old. One of the other reps that we talked to. Well, we didn't talk to her. We talked to one of her senior staffers. He literally told us. He's like, listen, she's not going to vote for any pro bitcoin legislation. I'm just telling you that. But she's also like, he's like, we were outside the office. We were like in the hallway talking about this. Like, he didn't want to meet with us in the office. Which I was like, interesting. But he's like, like, she's gonna be out soon. She's like 85. Like, don't like. So there's that at least. I was like, okay, well, you know, appreciate your honesty there.
- [28:05]
B
And it makes you wonder, is there a generational component to this where it's like, even if they Lean left. You know, they'll be more with it, so they'll at least understand the technology a little bit better. And it won't just be like, you know that. What does that mean from the, the Simpsons, where they're like, like, I used to be with it and then they changed what it was and now it's scary to me. Something like that. Like, that's probably how he feels when you bring up anything having to do with computers, let alone bitcoin.
- [28:31]
C
Yeah. Fun, fun anecdote. I was at Sam's club this morning and my wife and I were talking about how funny it was how many people still don't pay ahead of time on the app while they're shopping. And they, they just choose to wait in that line no matter how long it is, just because they refuse to embrace technology. The other thing I was going to say is many moons ago I interned on Capitol Hill for a congressman being in the belly of the beast. One thing that I believe is when we're talking to policymakers, you really want to orange pill their staff. These politicians, they don't read everything. Any one of them who says they do are complete liars. Which is, we know is super foreign to politicians. Orange peeling the staff is key because a lot of the papers that are written, a lot of the statements to their constituents, a lot of their public statements on news, it's coming from their staffers. Their staffers are doing the work.
- [29:23]
A
And that's definitely. And that was the craziest juxtaposition to me was like you've got these 80 some year old, you know, octogenarian, just like decrepit old politicians. And then their staffers are like the, like that, that, that one, like horrible video about like the. It's those like zoomer girls who are all in the circle doing that like little like dance in things, like something, something in a mini. I don't remember exactly what it is, but like that, that was literally like how I felt walking into all those offices. I'm like, well, what is going on here? Like, this is who is like actually like writing policy and then just like shipping it up to the, you know, to their great, great grandfather for like their signature. And like, gee, what is going like, no wonder. What things are so dysfunctional and nothing real gets done. It's like, of course not. Yeah.
- [30:06]
B
And you're on the deep blue state. I wonder like how it changes. It's like, like by state.
- [30:12]
A
Very good point. Yeah. Illinois is maybe not. Well, it's representative of a deep blue state, but yeah, it's, it's terrible. Okay. I feel dirty talking about it now. Okay, let's get into next. Let's talk about good old bitcoin treasury companies because there are so many of them now, you know, so there's been like, there's a lot of gut reactions to these. I think a lot of people feel that like, okay, this is, you know, this is somehow the co option of bitcoin or you know, it's like, you know, it's, it's paper bitcoin. Like this is just, it's going to blow up. It's you know, the altcoins of this cycle. I'm of the opinion that it's like this is just a natural progression. Like of course companies are going to want to hold bitcoin. Like, just like countries are going to want to hold bitcoin. Like this is what happens if bitcoin is winning. It doesn't mean you have to, you know, you don't have to like it or you don't have to buy any of these. Like, but you know, it is going to happen. I think also like my, my big kind of thing that I try to draw home to people is like, man, you know, you can buy these. But like I hope that your goal if you're buying a bitcoin treasury company's stock, if you're buying their equity, your goal is to outperform bitcoin. So like if you're not outperforming bitcoin, what like if your goal is not to just accumulate more bitcoin by being a super savvy trader with these and you know, you know, buying low and selling high and then converting those fiat proceeds into bitcoin after paying all the, your taxes to the, the relevant government's authority, then like what, what's the point here? So like it's like for the average person, if you're not willing to spend a ton of time like monitoring these things super closely, you, you should just buy spot bitcoin and take it into your own self custody and like you, you're going to do great and you'll probably still outperform most people who are trying to trade this stuff.
- [31:54]
C
Like realistically you will 100%. I've done this experimentally. I have a Roth IRA. It's tax free. So I can move in and out of these treasury companies and you know, I'll buy some at different points when they drop and I've yet to really outperform bitcoin. I mean, I mean maybe a time or two I got similar scientific super early and I outperformed it and then it came back down and I'm no longer outperforming bitcoin. So if you're super good at it, by all means do your thing. But as a firsthand experience, I can tell you it's pretty tough.
- [32:29]
A
Yeah. One thing that is interesting here. Go ahead, Jim.
- [32:32]
B
I was just going to say for me, same thing. It's like, what did Hodl say? It's like, give me two bitcoins or give me one bitcoin, I'll give you two back. Like, that is kind of what it is. You might outperform in the short term. I don't think it's going to outperform in the long run. I do think I will say that I think MSTR versus everything else, like massive asymmetry. They have the first mover advantage. And also like you have a, you know, aerospace engineer designing like financial instruments to possibly catch, you know, soak up some of the Wall street casino stuff. The other thing to remember is I think something crazy like 97% of capital is mandated to be in certain types of markets. So I think Sailor is catering to that. Maybe the others will do the same. But it feels kind of like a winner take all, if that even plays out at all. And once again, like, you know, this is like it's still bucks. Like if you, if you own these stocks, they're bucks. Like they can be taken from you. It's not like bitcoin where you can just, you know, store it in your head. So I would caution everyone to get like, you know, way above, like get to at least close to your target of what you want to have for bitcoin and then start thinking about like, if you want to play with a little bit or if you have stranded Fiat in one of your 401ks, be my guest. But I'd be very cautious. I would treat it like a shitcoin, basically.
- [33:51]
A
Yeah. And like a lot of them are going to trade exactly like that too. Like, I think, I think your point about strategy is, is an important clarification there. Like obviously they are developing different types of financial products to address different types of financial markets where there is capital that cannot just go ape in to spot bitcoin. Like, they don't have that capital, can't go there. So giving that capital a vehicle to get indirect exposure to it, that makes a ton of sense. And I also think I know a lot of people that are working on these pure play treasury companies and they're Great people and hardcore bitcoiners and I truly think that it is a positive thing that they are doing. I think bitcoin treasury companies are good for bitcoin. Like it's, you know, it certainly brings a lot more attention to bitcoin I think from the like. Okay, let me put it this way. Like you can talk on bitcoin podcasts ad nauseam about why bitcoin is great and why you should hold bitcoin in self custody and how this is censorship resistant freedom tech and how you know, it allows you to opt out of the current system and like some people care but like not a ton of, but like you start, you know, you can start a bitcoin treasury podcast and like boom, you will just, you'll blow right up. Because people want to figure out, because most people are still living in fiat world and they want to get rich in fiat terms and they're going to do that by you know, trading, trading these, you know, bitcoin treasury companies and options strategies on top of those and all of that. And so it's just like, you know, it's like that meme of like the really, you know, really short line for like bitcoin at whatever in the depths of the bear market and the really long line for it at a million dollars, it's kind of like the same thing. It's like there's a very short line for people who just want spot bitcoin. There's a very long line for people that want bitcoin treasury companies because they think they're like everybody wants to outperform, right? Everybody wants to gamble a little bit and try to get a little bit ahead. But if you're not thinking about that in terms of bitcoin as your hurdle rate, then yeah, you're making fiat gains, but you're also paying taxes on those fiat gains as you're trading in and out of these vehicles. And like if you're not outperforming bitcoin, what's the point? So like that's, I think that's where people need to be really careful. It is pretty amazing to see. I mean, so now let's see, looking at these, there's over a total of, let's see, 75 Bitcoin held by the top 100 companies that own bitcoin. And obviously there's large differences in scale here from strategy with 628,946 down to some that are just holding, you know, 30 Bitcoin. One thing I do want to remark on that I Think is interesting is that Coinbase has started actively accumulating bitcoin. They had like a, they had under 10,000 bitcoin as one of the earliest first movers in the industry, which is pathetic. They got bumped out of the, of the top 10 for, for a short time of the top 10 Bitcoin treasuries, which is insane. Like your Coinbase, you've been around forever, you literally sell bitcoin and myriad shitcoins. But I think there's, even amongst the shitcoiners there's an acknowledgement that okay, maybe we need to stop playing games here because this is a bit of a winner take all or winner take most game we're dealing with. This isn't shitcoin territory. These aren't infinitely printable shitcoins. This is bitcoin and damn, I guess we gotta pay attention to this. So maybe this race helps a lot of those shitcoin exchanges shape up a little bit and remember, you know, remember the crypto that got them started in the first place. I don't know but I think it's funny to see at least Coinbase move back in the top 10, which again, they should be like, they should be one of the, they should be top three, but they're not.
- [37:18]
B
I just want to say Coinbase can go fuck themselves.
- [37:21]
A
Yes, that's, that's indeed.
- [37:23]
B
Yeah, but yeah, I mean it's funny they say like in startups you want to be, you don't, you don't want to be a Swiss army knife, you want to be a knife. And that's just kind of the mistake they made. And that's just like typical Silicon Valley, bro, like chasing shiny objects. I think even me, myself and other startup entrepreneurs fall for that. But it's like look at fold by contrast, they probably have way less capital to work with and they still out stack them. How is that possible? And also just want to say Coinbase, what is it? Brian Armstrong talking about how bitcoin is a moral imperative while selling far a coin. Like I have to say it again, Coinbase can go fuck itself.
- [38:04]
A
It is just ridiculous. Like you know the, all the orange washing and like him kind of just basically talking onto both sides of his mouth. It's like, oh yeah, you know, yeah, bitcoin is a moral imperative. But like hey, you know, buy my shitcoin, like because that's what I'm making the majority of my fees on is you trading my shitcoin. Not his shitcoin, but all of their shitcoins. I mean, I Don't, I don't know where, where are you at in this, Matt?
- [38:25]
C
Yeah, I mean all time fumble, right? They talk about first mover advantage. I mean, I think, I think that's, that's really how it shakes out too. Winners take most. I mean it seems very obvious if you look at the top five, six, seven, really the top three or four, that lead is going to be hard to catch and a couple of them have the means to do so. But it's like you mentioned, bitcoin is the new hurdle rate. What people don't think about when they hear hurdle rate, they think about just outperforming bitcoin. But you also have to think of the time that you're holding other assets to move into bitcoin. How much is it going up in that time period? I mean if we hit a parabolic, you know, 10K candle, 20K candle and then we don't come back down, you know, you're stuck with shit.
- [39:05]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's not, not, not, not a place you want to be stuck. And like, yeah, a lot of, a.
- [39:10]
B
Lot of people died on the hill of. I'll buy back lower. Like I can thinking of one particular guy I know, one normie friend I had who had like 6 million SATs. He just sold it before the election. He's like, buyback lower. And I'm like, bro, what. We're at 50k, come on.
- [39:26]
A
Yeah. No. Oh man, how, how nice it would be to see 58k again though, you know, that's, I, I, I would love the opportunity to stack some cheap sats. I would relish in the pain that 58k would bring because it, it could be amazing.
- [39:39]
B
I mean, 8 is the new 58K.
- [39:42]
A
Yeah. Yeah, fair enough.
- [39:43]
B
Just stay there forever. Yeah.
- [39:46]
A
It is wild though, like with strategy and the amount of bitcoin that they have now it's, you know, worth something like total value of it. Now I'm trying to, let's see, let me bring back up old bitcoin treasuries because that's a, is quite a convenient site. Let's see. Yeah, it is worth. So their average cost, it's worth right now $73.54 billion. Their average cost is only 73 a,288 per coin. So that's, I mean that's just pretty like pretty nuts because especially when you look at like their buys like they've, you know, Saylor buys every top. Right. And, and it's, it's just, it's incredible to see Also like the fact that their earnings call just blew everything out. Like, you know, because of these, the changes in these accounting rules now it's like, wow, you know, Saylor already looked like a genius, but now when actually he can, you know, from a GAAP accounting standpoint, report his earnings in such a way that he can actually realize the value of the bitcoin, it's like, wow, he looks like even more of a genius. But we'll see. I mean it's still just wild because I'll talk to random friends who are pretty fairly even tapped in and still just people just haven't even really heard of most of the stuff that's happening with bitcoin. Treasury companies, maybe they've heard of MicroStrategy, they saw them on Sailor on CNBC or something. But it just feels like we're still so early in all of this because retail is definitely not here. But it's like I heard somebody say like maybe you don't want retail here yet because when retail is here, that's usually a little toppy. I don't know, maybe this time is different. Who can say? Another one, I wanted to talk about buying bitcoin or buying Bitcoin instruments. Harvard revealed they have a like $116.66 million worth of ibit. That makes them. It's the Harvard endowment. It makes them the 29th largest holder of IBIT, which is like pretty remarkable. I think they. Let me see if I can find it here. I think they have more. I'll pull this up on the screen as well. I think they have more bitcoin or you know, they have more ibit, I should say more IBIT than they do like Nvidia or Google. Let's see.
- [42:00]
B
I didn't know their position was that big. That's nuts.
- [42:02]
A
It's massive, right? So yeah, 29th largest holder of IBIT. The university also holds Microsoft Corp. Shares worth 310 million. That's a lot on worth 234.98 million. Meta platforms worth 120.5 million. Okay, so those are all above their bitcoin holdings. But then Alphabet Google worth 113.87 million worth 104.4 million. And SPDR Gold GLD shares worth 101.5 million. So that's wild that bitcoin is like squarely in the middle of that pack of all those massive names. And like, but that also like that. That makes sense, right? Because bitcoin is, is larger than some of those names like your portfolio allocation if you're one of these endowments, that's a pretty easy justification to make. Like bitcoin's the fifth largest asset in the world. How do we not have some sort of exposure to it? Like, I feel like it's getting to be. It used to be a career risk to bring up bitcoin as like, hey, maybe we should, you know, diversify into this magic Internet money. Now it's like you have to answer the question, like, why aren't we in this? Why are we not getting a piece of the best performing asset in the world? And it's kind of. It's wild to see that switch. And I think that's. That is going to accelerate as, you know, as number go up.
- [43:16]
B
Yeah. And Cathie Wood talks about how it's like the risk reward values are crazy. And also it's like, pretty uncorrelated. So. So if you're a Harvard, what are you doing if you're not managing your money by putting some of it into bitcoin?
- [43:30]
A
Yeah, and I lied, guys. So it looks like bitcoin has dropped down from its recent bitcoin crash. I don't know if you heard down to, I GUESS it's at $116,965. So that has moved it back below Alphabet and Amazon. So it's got some work to do. But hey, at least we're still above silver, so we're still winning there. Got quite a ways to go to catch gold at 22 trillion, 22.712 trillion. But I believe we'll be there a lot sooner than most people think.
- [44:03]
C
Yeah, Harvard was probably just tired of looking ignorant on it. I mean, there's smart people there, obviously. I'm sure it was very political behind the scenes on why they hadn't gotten into it at that point, but it reminded me too. I was thinking how many people who work at the Fed went to Harvard or have ties to that board or anything like that. I was at a wedding this, this past spring and I met a guy who worked for the Fed. And I was just chatting him up and I started talking to him about bitcoin and I shit you not, he. He knew nothing about bitcoin. So I still think there's, you know, we're super early. I was talking to a guy yesterday about, about bitcoin and he was like, yeah, I sold it a while back and now I'm in xrp and I just, it's. It's tough in the streets, man. I, I talk to, talk to a Lot of blue collar people on a regular basis. I'm from area and the level of education we, we got time, I'll put it that way.
- [44:59]
A
It's so, it makes me so sick with the XRP scammers done because you got to hand it to them, they've done a great job with their marketing right that, that like this you know and just with a completely like you would think their message would just be disgusting on its face like that because they're, it's a banker's coin, right? Like that's their, their whole thing is like the only way that they're able to pump their price that you know, Brad Garlinghouse and all of their, the ripple execs can sell off to retail is when they talk about, you know, they tease these new banking partnerships and things and XRP is going to be the, you know the, the global, you know, railways for money for the banks and like you know, it'll help with CBDCs and all this stuff and it's like God, I don't know like how many times you need to get dumped on by the, by the ripple founders that run your centralized shitcoin to be like huh, maybe this isn't such a good thing. But like I don't know, I think unit buys, I think it's fun.
- [45:48]
B
Like it's on one hand it's kind of, it's funny how like they'll, they'll tease the bank partnerships and then it's like you know, some subordinate was like okay fine, we'll like put it on our website. And then the senior people are like nah, this isn't happening. Like I remember watching one of their developers crash out about that and I thought that was hilarious and it's like, you know, that was hilarious. But then it's like on the flip side it's kind of sad. Like I know a lot of blue collar people that are somehow mesmerized by XRP and you're, they think they're going to be rich someday and you're like dude, like it's not going to happen. Like I don't know, it's just, it's really messed up the way they're just like mind fucking people.
- [46:23]
A
Yeah, truly is. And but like, you know, I don't know, we can't save everyone. We can certainly try. And at least people are, you know, people are getting more exposure to bitcoin. One of the other things I wanted to talk about actually was this, this Cornell bitcoin study because they talk about the top reasons Top cited reasons that people don't own bitcoin. And this was a global study, but what I thought was particularly interesting was in the US here, if you look at the top cited reason, and this is like the highest reason of any country in terms of percentage of people that were allocated to this. So top sided reason to never own bitcoin in a country. US top reason with the most people of any of these other countries in terms of their categories, citing this. Just not interested. Like just, I don't know, why don't I own it? I'm just not interested.
- [47:14]
B
And it's like that's like that meme where he's like, no thanks, I'll just stay poor or something like that.
- [47:18]
A
Well, really, but like, because I think that's the other thing is that people, like, if you're in the United States, like even when shit's really bad here, you're still better off than like most people. Like, than the majority. Like, you're still better off than billions and billions of people in the world, right? So like people in developing countries where they have even worse fiats than the US dollar, they understand hyperinflation because they've like literally lived it. So they get why you might want to scarce money or they've, they've gone through like financial repression and censorship so they understand why you might want an uncensorable money. In the US it's kind of like, yeah, you know, those things are kind of crazy. But like, you catch the game last night. Like there needs to be more pain before people are willing to like actually become interested in this thing.
- [47:57]
B
So I think you're, I think you're onto something. I'm a, so I'm a big fan of LaserHodl over on Twitter and he breaks it down like this. Like, basically there are seasons to the long debt cycles. There's spring, summer, fall, and now we're in winter. And so up till now it's like, especially in America, they kind of bribed people in America to not care about this because overall we had a world reserve currency, so we didn't feel it. And now we're starting to feel it. Like we're like the first cold snap just started and people are starting to get pissed off. But they're, you know, the long cycle, like the, the basically hiding planetary usury and like they got really good at hiding it. They did such a good job that nobody in the west noticed until like five years ago. That's kind of impressive on a level, but it's also like it's scary because it's gonna hyperinflate eventually. Like, that seems the path that they're taking in, as you point out, I can't save everybody.
- [48:55]
A
At least it'll be probably one of the last to hyperinflate. I mean, I say at least. That's such a dark thing to say flippantly because, like, hyperinflation literally, like, leads to death and destruction of society. Like, you know, we didn't do it. You know, it's not like. Like, none of us are responsible for this. Right. We're doing what we can to get outside of that system. But, like, that's the thing, you know, people talk about, like, the end of the dollar, but it's like, if the dollar is ending, like, that means that, like, probably just about every other fiat currency is already, you know, died a rapid death. And I think people discount that a little bit. I think it'd be a very odd situation. Not that it's impossible, but just the likelihood of it is a lot lower that in a vacuum, the US dollar hyperinflates without there being hyperinflation in basically every other fiat currency around the world. And the thing is, it's such a thin line between inflation and hyperinflation. It's like there's already massive amounts of inflation. It's just. We just haven't classified it as hyperinflation yet. It's just been a little bit of theft every year for decades and decades and decades. But it's not hyperinflation yet, guys. Don't worry.
- [49:53]
B
And it's crazy how there's like, we're just gonna.
- [49:56]
C
We're just gonna fuck you for just a little bit, then we're gonna back off, and then we'll be back.
- [50:01]
B
Yeah, it's. It's crazy how there's like a generational gradient, too. It's like you have boomers that kind of benefited from it, and then you have the Gen Z and Elf, Gentlemen Alpha are just getting completely wrecked. And it's like, you know, I don't know.
- [50:15]
A
Yeah, it's rough and like, you know, it doesn't help that you've got these shitcoin scammers who are, you know, pumping people's heads full of nonsense when they should just be staying humble and stacking sats. And that, I think, actually is a good way to bring us to our retard of the week category. This, I think, in the future, maybe we'll take. It'd be. It'd be nice to take submissions for retard of the week or retard of the month, whatever it is. This, this first one we'll just say it's for retard of the week. But my, I think the one that I'm really going with here is it's both like retard and scammer of the week. But Joe Lubin, co founder of Ethereum, basically saying that the Ethereum treasury companies are going to push Ethereum past Bitcoin in market value possibly within a year. And like this, like you would think that this flipping narrative would be dead. Like if you look at the ETH BTC chart like it is on a one way ticket to zero town. But these damn. Like, like this guy has the gall to come out here to, to print. Oh am I like infinity scrolling the screen. He has the gall to come out here and print tokens out of, out of thin air and you know, sell them in a, you know, massive pre mine and then to come and say that you know, like our little centralized Ethereum corporation coin is going to flip Bitcoin and it's like, it's just like no, it' like okay, is the, is there a zero percent chance? Maybe not zero. Like there's like a, you know that's a, that's a hard thing to say but I'd put the chance at so infinitesimal that like it is ludicrous to even speak about it in a serious way or to give airtime to these kind of people. And yet this is what they, they do all the time. It's always the narrative of like this is you know, like the next Bitcoin, you know, this is the faster, better, stronger Bitcoin. This is the world computer. This is, you know, the flipping narrative was so huge when ETH went through. I don't remember if it was the merge or the purge or whatever turned it where they're like now ETH is ultra sound money. Bitcoin sound money. But eth is like, is ultrasound money because it's deflationary. And then it's like it was like deflationary for like a little while then just like got back up to their previous issuance schedule. And all you have to do to like answer this question of like okay, if you're a, you know, if you're evaluating Bitcoin versus Ethereum, it's like tell me what fundamentals of Ethereum are unchangeable? Like can you tell me the supply cap of Ethereum? Like a heart? No, because just doesn't, doesn't exist. Like can you tell Me that, that the roadmap that you know, the roadmap basically with. With certainty. Well, the fact that even has a giant roadmap that is super convoluted and basically is controlled by one person and one foundation. It's all just so patently absurd. And so this is why I nominate Joe Lubin, co founder of Ethereum, as retarded.
- [52:51]
B
Can we just talk about his body language for a second? Like. Yeah, yeah, like, dude, look at him. He doesn't even believe himself. Dude, he looks like a little kid.
- [52:59]
A
I'll bring it back up. Up. I'll bring it back up. It. It is. Yeah.
- [53:03]
B
We need to draw like, you know, the memes are like, they draw the lines and stuff. Like, look at his body.
- [53:08]
A
It was just like he's like, the shoulders are kind of like. It's kind of like little and in like, you know, he's. He's not standing proud up there. I mean, maybe that's just how like if you're a shitcoin salesman for so long, your body just takes that shape all the time. I don't know. I can't say they're not sending their best.
- [53:23]
B
They need a better salesman. Holy shit.
- [53:25]
A
Speaking of better sales, I would love.
- [53:26]
C
To see a body language ad expert analyze this. And I can guarantee that the. The bullshit meter is ringing.
- [53:33]
A
Look at just, just slouching. Like, you just. You look like a weak idiot when you slouch. I want to give a shout out, by the way, to Ben Justin of Penny Lane Wine. I am a better salesman than Joe Lubin because I'm not selling you guys shitcoins. But I did receive free wine from Ben Justman. I am, I'm shilling it. I received no monetary value from Ben. This is just a pure value for vino exchange. And I think it's my favorite sponsorship ever, you guys, so. And Ben Justman's just a super based and awesome dude and he is certainly not the retard of the week because he's out there producing actual things of value instead of finding ways to trick retail into buying a shitcoin. Like, dear God. But okay, any. Are there any other retards that we want to. That we really want to like, you know, highlight.
- [54:13]
B
I feel pretty unprepared. Maybe it's the illegal immigrants that went on Social Security. I feel like that's pretty retarded.
- [54:20]
A
Many such cases, unfortunately. Many such cases. But that's. I think we, we haven't really defined. Man. I need to like define this category a little bit better. But Ye. Yeah. The goal here is. I mean, okay, the other one that we had that we brought up was good old Gary's Economics, you know, the UK guy. Hold on, I'll see if I can.
- [54:39]
B
That guy just seems like a psyop. Like, he just seems like he just got done ripping pipes out of the wall to sell for crack, and now he's like, you know, he's a chav gonna tell you how to live your life.
- [54:50]
C
And on top of the body language discussion, this dude's body language is abysmal. I mean, if you. He's usually like, something like this, and he always looks like he needs a shower for whatever reason, and he looks.
- [55:05]
B
Like a drug addict to me.
- [55:06]
C
Dude, he probably does need a shower. He needs a character shower. Because the. That that is coming out of his mouth is so abundantly.
- [55:15]
B
That it makes me want to. Have you guys ever seen that movie Rock and Rolla with Gerard Butler and, like, and Tom Hardy? Like a. It's a Guy Ritchie movie. It's kind of funny. It's like a cheeky, like, gangster film. He reminds. There's, like, a rock star in it that's, like, addicted to drugs and goes missing all the time. He kind of reminds me of that guy.
- [55:33]
A
Dude, what bugs me about this guy is that, like, he's. He's obviously not, like, not a complete idiot, right? I think. I think he's more so, like, he is just a. He is a psyop. Like, he. It's in a way, like, being a shitcoin salesman where, like, right now, his big push is that you need a, you know, wealth tax and inheritance tax and all these things in the uk, And I just think it's so. It's. First of all, those are just fundamentally stupid ideas. Like, those are really stupid ideas. And I think he's smart enough to know they're stupid ideas. Maybe he's not. Maybe he's actually not. I think that he is, and I think that he's. He's, like, playing a game here. But, like, dear God, you're literally like. And not to mention the fact for anyone that doesn't know, he has been very anti Bitcoin and said that bitcoin is basically a scam. I'll see if I can find his stuff on bitcoin here. But what bugs me about it is that even with his negativity around Bitcoin, he talks about all these problems. He talks about all these issues, the wealth disparity and all these things. And, like, yeah, these are problems, right? But the Solution that you're proposing isn't a solution. The solution to, you know, wealth inequality is not to implement wealth taxes and inheritance taxes because one, an inheritance tax is just, like, I think, fundamentally immoral. And wealth taxes just don't work because the capital just leaves. And, like, it's just dumb. Like, taxing unrealized gains is just dumb. But, like, meanwhile, you've got bitcoin.
- [57:03]
B
There's one. Sorry.
- [57:05]
A
No, go ahead, go ahead.
- [57:07]
B
There's one question we need to ask ourselves, and is it is can Gary bench two plates? And if he can't, then we just got to discard his opinion on everything?
- [57:15]
A
No, dude, there's no chance he's benching two plates.
- [57:19]
C
And with the, with the wealth tax, too, there's already data, like, recent data that is screaming about that specifically in Europe. I mean, everyone with money has already left at this point.
- [57:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's. You would think. I mean, it's like the people who are still pro communism, like, like, you are pro. A destructive. An economically and societally destructive ideology that literally has been responsible for the deaths of over 100 million people, you know, and has failed every time it was tried. But, like, you know, hey, we'll do it different this time. It's like the same thing with, like, a wealth tax, which is basically just, you know, one step on the road to communism. And same with, like, an inheritance tax. Like, that's one of the things they did. It's, you know, like, this is coming from someone who is. Was married to a woman who came from a communist country where her family on both sides experienced this. Like, this isn't just me making this up. Like, they confiscate possessions. They don't allow you to pass anything down. Everything is owned by the state. I mean, ultimately, they say it's owned by the people, but, like, the hubris of people like Gary to think that the answer to the problems with government is, hey, let's give the government more power. Let's do more government stuff. Like, yeah, the government's done such a terrible job of all these things. So what we should do is just give them a little bit more power to tax people even more, and that'll somehow just magically fix it. It's like, I. Which this is why, like, can he be that stupid? Like, I know he, like, made a lot of money. He's always talking about, you know, his trades and whatnot that he was making, you know, all of it because he was a math, A maths expert. I think I need to do a different Accent for him, that's. That was not a good one. But again, I don't know. Can, like, can he be that much of a. Or is he just like a big old psyop? Because it felt like he just started getting boosted everywhere out of nowhere, like.
- [59:02]
B
And, yeah, I don't know, he reminds me of. You remember Will McCaskill, the effective altruist guy? It feels like he's the guy, basically.
- [59:10]
A
Yep.
- [59:10]
B
You know, and he was probably MI6. If you look at him, he looks like he was SBF's handler, if you're asking me. But one question I have is, is, you know, is the fact that all the elites or the product, you know, private, the productive, you know, class leaving, does that have an effect on the politics in terms of, like, chat control? Because it seems like, like, those are the types of people that would be smart enough and have the resources to fight chat control. And now it just seems like they're kind of trapped with this, like, Panopticon. And as you point out, like, that's like another pillar of communism is, like, constant surveillance. Like, what. Like, how does that play in.
- [59:49]
A
It's honestly a great question. I mean, the uk got some issues right now, but, you know, what gives me. What gives me hope in. In the UK is like, folks like Peter McCormack, like, just deciding, like, I'm just going to go out and do things and I'm going to use, like, I've created a lot of value in this world and I'm going to go take some of that value and I'm going to kind of, like, pay it back to try and, like, fix things up in my hometown, because the government's not doing anything about it. So, like, I'm just going to do it. Like, that kind of attitude that we need. We need more of that. And, like, well, that's what actually gets shit done and moves the needle, is individuals deciding to make a decision and just fucking do things.
- [60:23]
B
Yeah. And hats off to Peter. Like, I. I think what you said, he's heroic. And this is one of my pet peeves about Bitcoiners sometimes, is talking about what they're gonna do when they retire. And it's like, dude, if you're. If you're under 50, like, you got a lot of energy left and the world is broken. We need strong men. It's like, do what Peter's doing. Like, don't. Don't take shit from anyone. Don't work a job you hate, but find some kind of, like, community service or mentorship or Below market rate thing you can do that will, like, make the world better. Don't just sit on your stack. I feel like that's pretty lame.
- [60:55]
C
Yeah, he's, he's a complete boss. You want to talk about the perfect debate, him and Gary.
- [61:00]
A
I would love to see it.
- [61:02]
C
I would love it. I would.
- [61:03]
A
He's invited him on the show.
- [61:04]
C
Has he?
- [61:05]
A
Okay, I think, I think so. And like, you know, and for that reason, maybe, what do we think is, who do we want to give the retard of the a week ground two?
- [61:12]
C
Well, I, I, I said this to you in private outside of the show, but weekly. What was his name? Joe. Makes sense.
- [61:21]
A
Yeah, Good old Joe.
- [61:23]
C
I told you, for me, Gary is just the of the summer. I mean, I've been, yeah, the algorithm has been shooting out his bullshit to me all summer, and every time I hear him speak, I want to jump out a window. And part of it is because he's just so scummy and the way that he does it, because you know that there's some young people over there who are struggling, who are latching on to the bullshit he's saying.
- [61:46]
A
Yep.
- [61:46]
B
Yeah. And also he's from Britain and we need to reverse colonize Britain. So I'll vote for Gary as well.
- [61:53]
A
I'm pretty sure. Peter. Peter. Okay, let's let you know what, we'll, we'll have a. I like that characterization. He gets the summer. Gary does and Joe can have retard of the week. And yeah, I think Peter McCormack is going to pretty soon start his own revolution in the uk. Like, he's just going to have a private mercenary force that just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And then he's like, well, you know, may as well just maybe just topple the old crown. Who can, who can say?
- [62:16]
B
He's got the Skull and Bones logo already, so just keep it going.
- [62:19]
A
He's a, he's a, he's a pirate. He's a Batman. He's. Yeah, shout out. Shout out to Peter. He's a, he's above all, he's a good dude. And damn, what a podcaster too. Learned a lot from, from that bloke. We should wrap soon, guys. Last thing I would say is just a little end on that. Trump did sign an executive order allowing Americans to add Crypt and Bitcoin, you know, in their 401ks. So basically there's a lot of, of like passive, passive accumulation that may happen here. I don't want to get into this too much, but I think this Is just like, the larger theme here is that this is another acknowledgment of the fact that bitcoin is like, an important thing which is here to stay. This is, you know, we're at a really interesting time, and I hope, like, I want as many plebs as possible to get exposure to bitcoin and if that becomes easier through their existing vehicles, where they may actually have a little bit saved up that they can't touch for a long time and that hopefully the government won't confiscate to pay off our massive $37 trillion pile of debt. But fingers crossed. But making it easier for people to get exposure to bitcoin, not to crypto, but to bitcoin, I think is ultimately a great thing. And so I hope we see more of that. I hope we see more. Just, I think that the biggest barrier to adoption is still and always just education. But luckily or unluckily, the more that governments do really dumb stuff and obviously mismanage and bungle our economy and our money because they're not smarter than the free market, the more people end up coming over to bitcoin because they realize just how broken the existing system is. So whether you're running toward bitcoin or away from fiat, all roads eventually lead to bitcoin. Just depends how long it takes you to get there. Anything else you guys want to add to close it out?
- [63:57]
C
Yeah. So a lot of what we talked about kind of centered around plebs and people having fiat brain and how it really sours their ability to grasp the asset. Putting it in 401ks, I think is huge. Most of the people that I know, millennial, I'm 35 years old, so everyone I know has a 401k. They don't know what's in it. 90% of them don't know what they're buying. They don't care. So even though the education is a barrier simply by it getting put in there without them even knowing about it, but it's going to help them out in the end. And I. And I think that's. That's good. It could be an extremely liberating point in time when we look back on it.
- [64:37]
A
Jim, what about you?
- [64:38]
B
Yeah, I mean, on this story, like, I don't really understand the mechanics. I don't get how it's too different from the etf. Like, are they going to do in kind redemptions? Like, I'm not really sure how that works. Like, it seems like your 401k would have to have Infrastructure to custody the asset. So I'm not totally sure how that changes things. I mean it's good that it's allowed, but for me it's kind of a nothing burger because it's like we need, we need like legislation to affirm things we still need to affirm, like the brca. Like that's the biggest thing for me is making sure we affirm people's right to write open source software without fear of prosecution, right privacy tools, right to encryption, right to self custody. Like those things are the most important, important to me. And for me it's like less about having favors from the government, more just running out the clock and not letting them with us this early.
- [65:30]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's basically like, let's. I think bitcoin is still the trojan horse for freedom that is making its way into the kind of the gates of government and Wall Street. It's like the, you know, like I'm not trapped in here with you, like you're trapped in here with me thing. And that's bitcoin. And American Hodl has said this a bunch, but he's like, you know guys, like we're in the gates right now. Like we're in the belly of the horse. Like we're inside, you know, the citadel. Like we just gotta shut up and like keep quiet for a little bit longer and then you know, we'll go out and do our thing once everyone's passed out. But, but yeah, I'm very, I'm very ultimately hopeful for the future because like it's just wild that the Overton window has shifted so much that these things are just being talked about like very normally now. This isn't like a fringe. Bitcoin isn't some fringe thing anymore. This is like, like it is, you know, it's mainstream. Like you know, your favorite band went mainstream. Like you knew about them before they were cool, but like a lot of people have heard of them now. But yeah, I think as, as a core cohort of toxic bitcoin maximalists, we still have a lot of work to do. There's a lot of education still to do and there's a lot of orange peeling still to do. But ultimately it's like you have to orange peel yourself. So the best thing we can do is just like be there to educate people when they're ready and know that that may still take a while. But appreciate both you guys coming on here. This was the first one of what I hope will, will be a regular thing. But yeah, appreciate your guys time. Another Shout out to Ben Justman because I'm just enjoying his wine and it's surely making this little news recap even just more enjoyable. So appreciate both of you guys. You want to just let people know where they can find you or just show anything you're working on real quick. Well, since you're both here.
- [67:03]
C
Yeah, for sure. Like I said, I'm still rucking for a bitcoin job, so check me out on X. Spell it how it sounds. I'm also constantly dropping gifs and sassy little replies to people. So come talk to me. I love talking about bitcoin and I love orange pilling people. So let's talk.
- [67:22]
A
Are you on Noster yet?
- [67:24]
C
I am. I'm on Noster with the same name.
- [67:26]
A
Okay.
- [67:27]
C
Just fired it up recently. So I'm still, still building, building out the structure there.
- [67:31]
A
There we go. There we go. Jim.
- [67:33]
B
Yeah, I'm Uncle Jim. 2021 on Twitter and Noster and you know, I'm building on AI. I'm basically trying to make AI as based and bitcoin friendly as possible. So building modular systems, building. Pull that up, Jamie. AI to get the massive propaganda machine going and doing all kinds of other like AI consulting stuff.
- [67:52]
A
Love it. Well, appreciate it. Thanks to everybody who tuned in on the NOSTR only live stream. If you're listening to this later, you should have listened to it on nostr. So what are you doing? But appreciate both of you guys. Appreciate your time. Grateful for bitcoin, for bringing people like us together and yeah, let's do it again soon. Peace, guys.