B (3:36)

Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs. My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast. Bitcoin continues to make new blocks every 10 minutes and the value of one bitcoin is still one bitcoin. If you are listening to this right now, remember, you're still early. This episode is brought to you by Blockware. What if you could lower your tax bill and stack bitcoin at the same time? Well, with blockware, you can. New US tax rules let miners write off 100% of their mining hardware in a single year. So earn bitcoin daily while saving big come tax season. Get started at mining.blockwaresolutions.com Titcoin use the code Titcoin to get $100 off your first miner when using the blockware marketplace. This is not tax advice, so go speak to the team at Blockware to learn more. Then that's mining.blockware solutions.com tcoin Head to the show notes for links to find the show on centralized social media Platforms and on Noster. Or just go directly to bitcoin podcast.net. you'll find it all there. And kind reminder that you can support this show by becoming a paid subscriber on Fountain. Or don't. Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it. Without further ado, let's get into this bitcoin talk. I'm stoked for Plan B, El Salvador. I mean, the Plan B crew, like, they put on just a. They do a very nice job. Like, it's. It's very well done. The programming is always good. The. Just the general vibe, like, is. Is great. I don't know, it's. It's nice. Like, I enjoy all bitcoin conferences I go to, but it's. There's something about, I think like Lugano specifically that just that city is so magical where you're like this. It doesn't seem like a real place. Like, what is this? Where are we right now?

A (5:22)

Yeah, the. The. Just. They. They put together such a great conference and I feel the same vibe. It's very special. It's very unique. I look forward to it every year. And yeah, it. They put together a great job. It's great. It's. It's effing Switzerland, man. But the one in El Salvador is just the same vibes, you know, it's just an El Salvador, right? So, yeah, they put together a great event, for sure.

B (5:48)

You've been to El Salvador a few times, right?

A (5:51)

Yeah, man, I've been. I've been a couple. Yeah. Say a few, to say the least. But yeah, it's. It's. It's great. It's cool. Like, I've. I've lived in Latin America. I'm originally from Venezuela. So to see a country like a Hispanic country with that level of safety and security on the ground is like, I can't. Like, everyone is like, basically calling name Bukele a dictator and like a fascist and like, oh, this and that. And I'm just like, in my mind, I'm thinking, I'm like, first of all, you guys don't understand the political situation on the ground over here. Second of all, I find it like, patronizing that you as a foreigner are like, basically giving us your opinion on how Latin American politics should be. And third of all, what he's done is a miracle. Like, what Naim Bu? K has achieved is a miracle. Like he has achieved. And El Salvador. I felt safer in El Salvador than I felt in some American cities. And no one's, like, talking about that. It's always like, oh, he's a dangerous democracy. Which is like the, the. I always hear that, but I'm from Venezuela. Venezuela is a failed state. Why is Venezuela not being talked about? Like, why are you talking about this tiny country that, like, went through 40 years of civil war and then Venezuela is left out of the equation and somehow Naim Bukele is the danger to democracy. But forget about Maduro, who literally cheated in the last election and has seized power. Let's completely leave him out of the. Let's. Let's not even talk about Cuba either, right? Let's. Let's forget about those examples and let's talk about how Naim Bukele is a dictator and dangerous, and even though he has a 97% approval rating, like, oh.

B (7:33)

Man, this is the insane thing to me, it's that of all the things that are threats to democracy, you would think, you know, you could find some better examples. But I think the reason that they go after Bukele so much is because he is. It's not that it's a threat to democracy. It's just like, it's a threat to the status quo because, like, things are working really well, right? We're keeping, you know, like, Europe's got these, the African countries on lock, you know, just keeping them subjugated. We got the French just taking care of everything with the CFA, Frank, across 13 different countries.

A (8:04)

And.

B (8:04)

And then, you know, in Latin America, it's like, it's okay, you know, Big Daddy USA will take care of things down there, keep just enough political unrest that they never really are able to get ahead. If we need to, we send in our three letter agencies to, you know, stir up a little bit of trouble. And when we have a strong man that gets into power, that's totally okay, just as long as he's our. As long as he's our guy. Like. But if he's not our guy, that's a problem. That's when we need to start, you know, pushing the narratives a little bit. I think that's what it comes down to. It's like, he's not their guy. You know, he's. He's something else. Maybe they tried to make him their guy and it didn't work. And now it's like, no, can't have that because you need to be able to exert control. But it's like, we went there for the first time in 2022, and I remember people asking us, like, if, you know, if anyone had, like, knew about El Salvador at all, which most Just didn't really. Besides, it's a country. They'd be like, oh, like, that's really dangerous. Are you sure it's going to be safe for you guys going down there? And we're like, yeah, it's going to be safe. It's already gotten so much safer since this new president has been in power. We didn't know a ton about it back then, except he had just started those reforms. But I remember walking around the streets and being like, this feels a lot safer than Chicago. We're a hell of a lot safer than Chicago. And since being back there, we were there twice in 2022 and then went back there this past January for plan B, El Salvador. And it was just like, just even better. It had improved even better. And this is not to say that any leader is beyond reproach. I think you should justly criticize things when a leader does them poorly. But you should also say that if she does something good, you should say that that's a good thing. It's a good thing that people aren't getting murdered on the street, that women aren't getting dragged by their hair out of buses and having horrible things done to them by these gangs that just ran everything. Like, that's not a bad thing. That's a really good thing. And you know, I'm sorry if it offends your delicate sensibilities that these people tatted from, you know, from top to bottom are, are now sitting in like a maximum security prison. But, like, I think that's a good thing. And the people of El Salvador seem to think so too.

A (10:09)

Yeah, I think that was beautifully said. And I think it's a projection of, you know, because Naimu Kelly, what he does, you know, and again, it's not perfect, right? But it basically shows that a government can actually fulfill its basic function, which is protecting citizens and protecting private property from crime. Like, that's the whole point of paying taxes. Right. And I think that the money printer has just like, kind of dwarfed or like the dwarf is not a good word. But it's, it's kind of like it's, it's changed the incentives of politicians. Like, it's, it's misaligned the incentives of politicians completely. And all of a sudden, like, their main priority is keeping power and making sure that the money printer keeps flowing. And the whole idea of, you know, providing the basic roles of government to a society just goes out the window. And I think that once you have Naim Bukele coming in, popularity of 90% plus stops crime completely. It proves that there is another way. It proves that it doesn't matter that this is a, you know, a country with a GDP of $32 billion. It proves the fact that if you get your act together, you can actually get rid of crime. You can actually, you know, propel your people forward. Your people will actually feel proud to be from the country they're from. Like, I'm from Miami, dude. And Miami is like the mecca of like Latin America. Like, if you're from Latin America and you make it to Miami, it's like you can't go higher than that. I have people from El Salvador that I've heard are going back to El Salvador. So they're leaving Miami and they're going back to El Salvador. That's unheard of. You don't hear that, that, that like that doesn't happen. Right, but it's happening in El Salvador because of the situation that Naim Bukele has created on the ground. Now I get his critics now, how he's saying, ok, but like Nico, you understand he has too much power. He grew the state to stop crime. And, and you know, he's doing all of that was democratic, right. The same people that are arguing that he's a threat to democracy are completely leaving out the fact that he's done all of this democratically with an overwhelming majority. Because people are tired, sick and tired. Can I curse on this?

B (12:49)

Yeah, dude, you can say whatever the fuck you want.

A (12:51)

Yeah, people are sick and tired of the bullshit. So you know, they, they like, they look at Naim Bukele and they're like, oh, this is the name of his party, if you translate it to English is new ideas. Right? So he came in there with new ideas. The, the old left wing party and the old right wing party. And he's like, look, I'm going to do this differently. I'm going to protect private property rights. I'm going to make bitcoin legal tender. All this bitcoin tourism came, all this, you know, tether setting up their headquarters there. Like, you know, all this benefits for the El Salvadorian people and the, the people are thriving. And you, you compare El Salvador with every other country in Central America, whether it comes to the economy, whether it comes to crime, whether it comes to any of those things, you don't see an equivalent. And it's so crazy that the western media is hyper focused on the only country that is thriving and succeeding in the region and has figured out how to stop crime. Which again, if you think about like first principles and just basic common sense. You just lock up the criminals who would have known crime stops. Oh my God. Like that rocket science, right? So I think that the reason that the so called mainstream media, I don't call them that anymore, it's more the legacy media and the politicians in the western world have such a problem with Naim Bukele is because they're projecting onto him what it is they are guilty of themselves.

B (14:22)

They.

A (14:23)

They're projecting onto him their own failures. It embarrasses them that he could do what they cannot with less. That's what it's about.

B (14:34)

Dude. That is extremely well said. I. I want to pause for a second because we're. Because I don't have an opti some for some reason the noer stream isn't working and I want this with you to be on Noster. So I'm going to cut this real quick. Going to restart it. Well, not restart it. I'm just going to cut it together for the end like published episode. But I'm going to cut this and redo the stream because you need to be ranting on Noster right now. Deal.

A (14:59)

Sounds good.

B (15:00)

And I'm going to get myself an Opti one of these days. And for those listening at home, you will have no idea that this even happens. It will be super smoothly cut, I promise. What if you could lower your tax bill and stack bitcoin at the same time? Well, by mining bitcoin with blockware you can New tax guidelines from the big beautiful bill allow American miners to write off 100% of the cost of their mining hardware in a single tax year. That is right, a 100% write off. So if you have $100,000 in capital gains or income, you can purchase $100,000 worth of miners and offset it entirely. Blockware's mining as a service enables you to start mining right now without lifting a finger. Blockware handles everything from securing the miners to sourcing low cost power to configuring the mining pool. They do it all. You get to stack bitcoin at a discount every single day while also saving big come tax season. Get started today by going tomining blockware solutions.com Titcoin Again, that's mining.blockware solutions.com Titcoin Use the code Titcoin to get $100 off your first miner when using the blockware marketplace. Of course, none of this is tax advice from me. Go speak with the team at Blockware to learn more. One more time. That is mining.blockwaresolutions.com TitCoin Wish you could access cash without selling your Bitcoin. LEDN makes that possible. The global leader in Bitcoin backed lending, LEDN has issued over $10 billion in loans since 2018 and has a perfect record of protecting client assets. Why is a Leaden loan different? Well, with custody loans, collateral is not lent out to generate interest. No credit checks, no monthly payments. Apply in minutes and repay whenever you want with zero penalties. And proof of reserve's reports verified by a top accounting firm are published every six months. LEDN gives Bitcoin holders a secure, transparent way to unlock liquidity without selling. Learn more@leden IO Walker. That's L E D N dot I O forward slash Walker. Man, I'm sorry about that. This is why I need my Opti, you know, I mean it doesn't have to be like, well, you know, have you thought about like, you saw those new, those like robot, those Neo robots or whatever? Maybe Opti can like control whatever in, you know, like, I'll get a Neo here. Optic can be the, the guy. The guy wearing the suit and running it.

A (17:40)

Yeah, I troll Opti all the time because like Elon, the Tesla robot is called Optimus.

B (17:46)

Yeah.

A (17:46)

So I'm like, I'm like, dude, like I'm going to get like two of them and they're going to be like different personalities. Like one's going to be like a super submissive Opti and then one's going to be like a super like you, but times 10. So it's like, opti, make me a sandwich. One says, fuck you and then the other one's like, okay, Nico, no problem. I'll go make you a sandwich. Right?

B (18:05)

Sure, that sounds great, sir.

A (18:07)

So, and then have the same voice as Opti. So have like a bunch of different robot Opties. It'd be cool. But yeah, I don't know, maybe, maybe. It's crazy. It's kind of the, the robotics thing is nuts, bro. Like, I know that in 10 years everyone's going to have a robot. It's going to be pretty cool, dude.

B (18:25)

It is. I think it. Oh, I mean, I think so too. I think these ones right now, like you're kind of like beta testing for these companies and like the whole thing with like the. You're basically like remote viewing in and doing the controls on these things. Like that's a little, that gets a little bit weird. This feels like a very concerning thing for one's privacy. Like you just got some dude in another country who's like, you Know, remote viewing in to control this robot in your home. Like, I don't know, seems kind of strange to me, but, like, what do I know, you know? By the way, how's my. Is my audio okay still? Because now. Tripping on me.

A (18:58)

As sexy as always.

B (18:59)

Buttery and smooth.

A (19:00)

Silky smooth. Buttery smooth.

B (19:03)

Amazing. Amazing.

A (19:04)

Silky. We're back.

B (19:06)

We'll pretend. We'll pretend the first part never happened. For anybody that's just tuning in now, which is all of you, because we're live only on Noster, and I screwed up something with the live stream. I'm not going to blame the devs for this. I'm going to blame myself. I screwed it up. It's on me. But Nico was. Was getting into some great rants and we were talking about El Salvador. You'll have to hear about it when we do the. When I publish this everywhere after the fact. But Nico, we'll just pretend this is for real this time, because it is. But I appreciate you joining. We realized we were talking about this in Uganda and you called me out because you were like, dude, I had you on my show, like, super early. You never had me on yours. And I was like, I am such a dick. And I really. I was like, wow, that is. That is on me. So I'm stoked that you're finally here, man.

A (19:45)

Well, dude, I'm stoked that you're having me, man, because, like, you're not a bitcoin podcaster until you've been on the bitcoin podcast. So I. I felt like I haven't made it, you know, Like, I felt like I've. I've checked all the boxes, I've done the conferences, I've done the thing. And I call myself a bitcoin podcaster, but how could you be a bitcoin podcaster if you've never been on the bitcoin podcast, right? So I'm on a fair question.

B (20:12)

It's a fair question, but I mean, technically. So do you consider yourself, do you consider your show a podcast, or do you consider it like a talk show? Like, what, What. What's the genre there?

A (20:21)

I don't know, man. I don't know. It's. It's like, it was really weird, man. Cuz so when I started simply, like, there was. It's like, people have to understand this. Like, there was no bitcoin content, right? Like, it. Bitcoin content, like, did not exist. Like, there was Marty, there was Stefan, Lavera, there was Andreas, there was Max and Stacy. But, like, forget about all the production, the cameras and the microphones. And it was like, it was webcam and like yeti mics and you know, like the basics. And you know, it was like the infancy of bitcoin only media. So like, you know, it kind of evolved from like this like 10 minute show to this 30 minute show to this 45 minute show to this like hour show. And then we figured out how to like break it into segments and stuff like that. But it all happened super organically. Like it was not planned at all. And it just kind of patched together. And then when I started it, it was just a hobby. Like, I. I genuinely felt passionate about talking about bitcoin. And back then you have to understand, like, the idea that you could make a living or, you know, much less build a company out of making content about a specific niche, like about bitcoin on the Internet was just like, it was considered impot. Like it was. There was nothing that you can refer to and say, oh look, this person did it, right? So it was kind of uncharted territory, man. And it just kind of like one thing led to another and that kind of led to the live show. And then the live show just kind of picked up a life of its own. And we're just like super blessed to just be able to like literally talk about bitcoin. Like, it's super strange, man. Like if, if, if you would have, if, if someone would have told me like, Nico, like, like this is all the stuff that you would go through to like do it. I don't know if I would do it again, to be honest with you, bro. It was a lot of pain and a lot of uncertainty. Like for the first two years, like you were making content and maybe like a hundred people would watch your video. Right now we get like, you know, like over a thousand people watching live, right? So it's a much different type of conversation, right? But back then it was just. It was very uncertain. But that uncertainty was obviously an opportunity.

B (22:45)

What, what year did you actually start making Bitcoin content?

A (22:49)

20. So I started making YouTube content in general, like 2017, 2016. But those channels you will never see. It's just me playing like video games and like stuff like that. So I've always want to see him though. I've always loved YouTube. And then I, I did like this equation in my math where in my math, I did this equation in my head where I was basically thinking, I'm like, okay, it takes about four years to really pick up Momentum on YouTube, right? Like that's the rule of thumb. So. And I was like, 24, 24 or 25 at the time. And I was like, okay, so if I keep making content about video games, first of all, it's very saturated, number one. Number two, by the time, like, I get any inkling of momentum, I'm going to be 28, 29 years old. And it's like, do I really want to be that guy making content about video games heading into his 30s, right? So I was like, no. Like, let me just start making content about bitcoin. And I had no, like, professional training about media or, you know, journalism or content creation or any of the things. I had, like, no professional training whatsoever. I didn't go to school for it, but I just did it. I iterated every single day. And I did it for, like, we were at the beginning, the live show was six days a week. So I did. I did that for, like. And I edited the videos myself. And it took me like three hours, like, each video to edit. But I did that for, like, two and a half years. And then on, like, the third year is really when, like, things compounded enough for it to take off. And we were lucky enough to get some sponsors that supported us. And then, you know, a year after that, we started hiring people. We picked up Rustin, we picked up Dante. Sophie's making content for us now, Oceans, of course, Opti joined. So we picked up, like, this, like, this team of content creators. And yeah, we've just been dropping content, man. It's been a extremely surreal experience, but it's been very painful. I'm not going to lie to you, dude.

B (25:09)

It's wild to think so. Were you already, like, had you been into bitcoin for a little bit prior to that? Like, you. And then, like, that was kind of just a thing in the background, like, whatever. But then you were like, okay, no, this is this other thing I care about, I'm passionate about. Let me start putting out content. Because, like, it's true, there was not, like, I was not a bitcoiner at that time. I heard about bitcoin for the first time in 2014. That was the first time I ignored it. Silk Road Day's buddy tells me, hey, you should know, got to get these bitcoins things to buy certain things on this certain website. And I was like, whatever, nerd. Like, you know, I don't care about your nerd money. And, you know, ignored. And then 2017, like, went and, you know, bought a couple litecoin on Coinbase because I didn't realize you could buy a fraction of a bitcoin. And I was like, I don't have the. I don't have the cash to just throw a bunch of money at these bitcoins. And they're just like, you know, didn't do any actual research into it. Didn't actually look into it. It wasn't until 2020. And so, like, it's amazing even just to see from 2020 until now how much this, like, content ecosystem has blossomed. But you've been doing this and been in bitcoin since, like, I mean, you were one of you. You're an OG when it comes to bitcoin content creation. That's fair to say. Like, you've been in the game of. Of bitcoin, podcasting, bitcoin shows, whatever, for a long time.

A (26:23)

Yeah. So I. So it was 2020. So 2020. We started simply again. We didn't know. And yeah, it was. It was just Walker. It was a totally different. It was a totally different environment, dude. Like, the idea that you could make money, it was like, you know, I think Peter McCormack was the only one that was, like, able to do it. But, like, the idea that you can just, like, you can just do things was just, like, unheard of. Like now, you know, now it's like, comes with a lot more certainty. But obviously there's a little bit more saturation. But yeah, man, it was just a totally different ball game and that getting involved with. With different creators and helping their channels grow as well. Like the Swan channel, I blew it. The F up bt BTC sessions. Worked with. Worked with him for a while, helped him grow his channel. So just kind of seeing, you know, these. These. These channels that are, like, enormous. Watching the process and then, of course, doing it for myself, doing it simply was just crazy, man. It was just like the infancy, I always say the infancy of bitcoin only media. I don't know what the future is going to be five years from now of bitcoin only media, because the way that Mark Moss was talking about it was basically like, do you see any podcasts about the Internet these days? It's just the Internet. Everyone just uses it. So I think about it a little bit differently because I think that bitcoin itself is like a movement. It's a group of people. If you're a bitcoiner, you're part of your own country. It's this own nation on the Internet that lives. You think differently, you have a different culture, you have a different ethos. So I think it's a little bit different than the Internet in that sense. I might be wrong here. Mark has obviously been making content for much longer than I have and much more on a much more successful level. But yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a roller coaster ride, man. And I just take one month at a time. Walker, to me, it's like this, bro. If I make payroll that month, I am super effing happy. And I'm just taking it one month at a time. And you know, it's, it's, it's great to be able to do this for a living.

B (28:55)

I mean you're, you're damn good at it too. Like, you probably didn't know this. You have no way of knowing these things when you're starting. But it's, I mean, unless you're like really, really super confident in you that ability at that moment. But like you have a gift for this, right? Like, you are very good at it. And that's obviously something that's also. You've. I'm, you know, I haven't seen your gamer videos from back in the day obviously. But like this is something that is practiced, right? Like you, you get better. I like, I see this in myself. I watch like older, you know, interviews that I've done or whatever and it's like that was a little awkward, you know, but you, you evolve, you change, you try to grow, or at least you should. Like, you shouldn't stay stagnant, but like you've grown. This channel, I think it's super impressive. Like just, I mean you're over 100k now just on YouTube alone. You guys have also started taking more of a focus on Rumble and maybe something we can talk about is because like we were just Rumble was. They obviously work closely with the plan B guys and you've had some interesting run ins with YouTube to put it very gently. But like, let's talk about that a little bit. Maybe that's, it's probably a good time to do so because. And we're also, we're live streaming this on Noster right now. Shout out to everyone who is there. You have a massive YouTube channel. You have built a business around this YouTube channel. Yes. You stream other places. Yes. Now you stream to Rumble X whatever and you also stream on Nostr for people who want to watch it there. But like YouTube is your bread and butter. Right? Like that's where you have the biggest audience. That's where you're getting the most exposure. Does it. I mean, given that you Guys have been like temporarily or accidentally deplatformed a couple of times. Does that freak you out at all? That's gotta just not be cool.

A (30:34)

Of course. And the advice that I would Give any Bitcoin YouTuber content creator is that it will happen to you. Like, it's inevitable that it happens to you. I don't think it's malicious. I think it's algorithmic. Like, you will say some keywords in a certain amount of time and it will trigger the algorithm and it will automatically default to banning you. And then if you have enough clout on X and you make enough of a ruckus, someone from YouTube support will notice and, you know, they'll. They'll have a human actually review the algorithmic ban and they'll reinstate your channel. And I'm pretty sure, like, there's no way to know this for sure, but I'm pretty certain that they white label, they put a little label next to your channel after that and they give you. The parameters are a little bit wider algorithmically. So it's not an, it's not an auto band. Right. But I think it's a rite of passage for every bitcoin content creator. If you're on YouTube, you're going to go through that. It's happened to Bitcoin Magazine, it's happened to Swan, it's happened to BTC Sessions, it's happened to Luke Mickich. At one point or the other, if you make bitcoin content on YouTube, you will get banned. And it is scary, but once you survive the first one, it gives you a little bit more confidence. And again, there's no way of me saying this for certain. It's just my instinct and just my interpretation of it. I'm pretty sure they put a little label next to your channel after that. But with all that being said, it is kind of scary, man, because, like, let's say you have a thousand followers on Twitter and let's say you have 500 followers followers on YouTube or 2,000 followers on YouTube, like, there is absolutely no way you're going to get your channel back. And I've seen that happen a lot, right? Like the people that have gotten their channels back have been people that have sufficiently sized X accounts that they're able to make enough of a ruckus where YouTube support on X actually gets a human to look at the channel so they can reinstate it. But if, if you don't have enough, if you don't have a big enough platform on X to make enough of a Ruckus, you're not going to get that channel back. It's gone. Like, they're going to default to the algorithmic ban and they say the algorithm was right. So, yeah, man, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's scary. Now it's a little bit better with the Trump administration. Right. You know, with the previous administration, like, there's, I'm not going to be very specific, but, like, there is a lot of things that have come out so far that has shown that there was a lot of pressure put on social media companies to censor certain type of content. And we know that the previous administration didn't appreciate bitcoin very much. Right. So, yeah, I mean, it's not rocket science to put two and two together. Now I do want to give a shout out to Nostr and to Rumble. Rumble's a lifesaver. The, the two, the two days that we were banned and we weren't able to stream on YouTube, our audience actually followed us on Rumble. And that was like, crazy to see. Like, you know, like, we, we reg, maybe we get like a hundred live viewers on a regular day on rumble, and on YouTube, we average between five to five hundred to a thousand. And those days on Rumble where we were live streaming on Rumble, we were getting like 6, 700 live viewers on Rumble. So that means that our YouTube audience, at least 75 to 80 of them, were actually following us to the Rumble platform to watch the show. And that, to me, like, meant the world to me. And those two days were like some of the best effing shows. Because as you could see, like, I'm. You. You self censor a little bit. You know, once you get on YouTube, like, you start saying less curse words. There's certain topics that you can't talk about that we talked about on the train in Lugano, but, you know, those.

B (34:50)

Were supposed to stay hidden on the train. We were supposed to leave them on the train.

A (34:55)

So, yeah, it's just the nature of the, it's just the nature of the beast. But unfortunately, like, if you're a content creator and you're trying to build an audience, you have to go on YouTube. Like you. There's no other platform where you're gonna get that type of volume, that type of searchability, that type of potential to be discovered with the other platforms like Rumble, you could do it. It's just significantly harder. And Noster is just freaking awesome because it's like our doomsday bunker, bro. If one day, for whatever reason, governments start Cracking down. It's more unlikely now than it was two or three years ago. We know that we can just go here, stream, and no one's going to be able to take this down. But if you want to get your content out to the normies and you want to be discovered, and you want to build a business around creating content and media, you have no choice but to post on YouTube. Like, you do not have a choice. It's. It's. It's nearly impossible to do it on any other platform or protocol.

B (36:01)

I think it is a fair point. It's one that I've had to kind of come around to because initially when I started this show, I wasn't even going to do video. I was just going to do audio. Like, I was like, a podcast is a true. Podcast is just audio, right? And I want to, you know, want this to be, you know, a true. Another fucking bitcoin podcast, you know? And then I was like, well, but shit, like, it's hard to grow. Like, hard to grow an RSS feed. Like, it's hard to get people, you know, to. To actually go there and sign up on their podcast platform of choice, which people may as well use Fountain, because it is at least run by bitcoiners who use Noster. Um, they're not paying me to say this. I actually pay them to host with them. So, like, you. You know that I really mean it when I say that it's, It's. It's an awesome, awesome product. But I realized I was like, if I want to actually reach outside of the echo chamber, cause otherwise it's just gonna be people that find my RSS feed are gonna be the people that saw it on Nostr and the people that saw it on X, which is already limiting myself to an echo chamber. My goal with having this podcast is to try and educate as many people as possible about bitcoin, right? That's why. That's why you have your channels. Because you want to bring bitcoin to as many people as possible so that you can also be signal amidst the noise of shitcoins. Because that's the other thing. Like, I recently started an Instagram account for. For the podcast. And it's like you, like, you search bitcoin on there, and it's just mostly just shitcoin shells. It's just a bunch of like, XRP shills and whatever else. Like, they are inundating Instagram there. If you go on YouTube, it's like, it's mostly, you know, o face, like selfies of or, you know, thumbnails of a lot of shitcoin shills and crypto bros and everything. And it's like, we need more bitcoin only content, and you have to meet the people where they are, not where you want them to be. Yes, it would be great if everybody only watched this show on Noster and only listened to it on Fountain or some other podcasting 2.0 solution, but that's just not the reality, because such a tiny, tiny fraction of people even own bitcoin yet. Like, we're so damn early. And I feel like, let's talk about that a little bit, because you've been in this space longer than I have. It's still at every point in my journey, like, when I was first getting started with bitcoin, I felt that I was way too late. I was like, well, I've already, you know. You know, 2020 is here. They're sending out checks to people, you know, stimmy checks. I'm, you know, taking whatever I can, you know, from the money I'm earning. I'm putting it in bitcoin. But, like, I'm. I'm so late. Bitcoin's been around for so long already. And then we get here to 2025, and I'm like, we're so early. Like, the longer I've been in bitcoin, the more early I feel. Not just because, like, you know, I'm not some, like, og, right? Like, but eventually anyone who's. If you buy bitcoin for the first time today, you will be an OG to the people 20 years from now. They'll be like, I can't believe you bought Bitcoin in 2025. Wow, that's amazing. Do you still have that feeling? Does that. Is that something you share where it's like that the longer you're in this, the earlier you feel just like. And it becomes clear if you just talk to random people about this, you just talk to the normies. Like, we're early.

A (39:02)

Yeah, it's, you know, it's really interesting because so when I got in, I knew people that got bitcoin when it was at $100 a sub, $100. I knew people that were literally mining bitcoin with a cpu, you know, and, you know, they were just mining, like, you know, the block reward at the time was 50 Bitcoin, and then it was 25 Bitcoin. And they were just doing this at home, right? Like, none of them, like, sophisticated, expensive mining equipment that you have now, and the block subsidy Is like what, like 3, 3 and something.

B (39:41)

3.3.12, 5.

A (39:45)

And you know, I knew people that were just like, they had their laptop and they were just getting 50 bitcoin rewards for finding a block, right? So when I got in, like, I thought I was late. You know, I got in, you know, this, the third quarter of, of 2016 and I thought I was late. I was like buying this thing for, you know, like 5, 6, $700. I'm like, what am I doing? And if I can go back to my previous self and say, Nico, like what? Like you're not doing enough, like shaking that person. I totally would. And I did a lot, by the way. Like, I hyper obsessed for like four years. Like I would, I would wake up in sweats like, what can I do to accumulate more bitcoin? And. But I, but if I knew what I knew now, which was, you know, bitcoin would be sitting at 107,000, peaked at 126,000. If I could tell my younger self, you know, many, many years ago, hey, Nico, like, this is where it's going. Like, you know, I think I, you know, maybe I, perhaps I would have done more right. And I think that's the experience that a lot of people are going to feel like. We're sitting at 107,000. Bitcoin's been a little bit of a stable coin this year. But you know, I think in five, 10 years from now, when our kids are up more, our kids are, are older and you know, they're, they're making full sentences and they're talking and you know, they're going to school and they're having personalities and we're getting gray hairs and you know, bitcoin's at a couple million dollars per coin. You're going to be having the same thoughts. You're going to be like, dude, I remember when the bottom of the bear market in 2022, Bitcoin was at $16,000. Oh my God, I can't believe I had the opportunity to buy it then. Or bitcoin was at $107,000. I can't believe I had the opportunity to buy that. You're going to be thinking that when bitcoin's at a million dollars per coin, $2 million per coin, $3 million per coin, $5 million for coin, $10 million. You're going to be thinking about the times that you were able to get at a hundred thousand dollars per coin. That's no doubt in my mind that's going to be the case so to kind of add to your point, you know, are you early in the sense that you're gonna. This is a lottery ticket and you're gonna, you know, become super wealthy in a very short amount of time? No, I think that train has definitely passed. Are you late in the sense that, you know, bitcoin isn't gonna dramatically change your life financially compared to where you are now? Absolutely not. What I tell people is like, look, like, if you buy bitcoin and you do it in a disciplined fashion and you do it for four years, so you take a percentage of your paycheck and you put it into bitcoin and you do it every single month, and you do that for four years straight. Add that together and multiply it by 10, right? And it will blow your mind. And it doesn't even need to be a big amount, right? It could be like, you know, $100 a month. That's $1200 a year, right? Twelve hundred dollars. Multiply it by four. I'm terrible at math. You know, whatever it is, like what, $4,800, right? Multiply that by 10. That's $48,000. Like, where else are you going to get. Going to get that? And then let's say you wait eight years, right? Multiply that by 20. Right? Now you're talking about half a million. Just because you put a thousand dollars away, or, sorry, $100 away, you know, every month, and you saved twelve hundred dollars a year and you did that for four years, and then you did that for eight years, and then, you know, you have half a million dollars, right? Like, that's, that's what. And there's nothing on the face of the planet that can give you that type of. At this point in bitcoin's history, that type of opportunity, there's nothing else. Like, the S and P is not going to do it for you, like, unless you're putting it in video or something. And like, again, but it's, it's highly speculative, right? So, like, Nvidia is doing good. What if the AI bubble pops? Like, you know, like, you never know, right? Like, I could tell you that it's infinity divided by 21 million, right? So that was a very long winded answer to your question. But no, I don't, I don't think we're late at all. I still think we're early. And, and even when bitcoin's at a million dollars per coin, where else are you going to put your savings? Are you going to put it like, what you're going to give it to a guy, Goldman Sachs, that charges you a percent and he's going to beat the return that Bitcoin is going to give you on a yearly basis where you don't have to pay anyone else and you don't have to give up your custody of it. No, of course not. So it's like I'm going to be buying Bitcoin at $10 million per coin because where else are you going to park your wealth? There is nothing else you're going to put in real estate. Okay, fine, you put in real estate, you have to pay the property tax, you have to pay maintenance, right? Something like. It's like if you use that real estate as a rental property, you have to deal with tenants, right? Okay, so you have to deal with that then, okay, you put it in the, you put it in the stock market, let's say you put in the NASDAQ, you put it S&P 500, okay? It gives you what, you know, a good year 5 to 10% return. If you adjust that for inflation. You're treading water, right? You're literally treading water in terms of your purchasing power. Right? So nothing's going to give you what Bitcoin can give you. So, yeah, that's my answer to that question.

B (45:38)

That's a great rant. I mean, it's also like all of that said, plus you can take it across any border in the world in your head and no one can take it away from you. Like all, all of that price appreciation, all of that, but you can send it around the world 24, 7, 365, and no one can stop you from doing it. Like, that's incredible. And on the price piece, I think it's interesting because it's like with each order of magnitude in Bitcoin's price growth, the prior all time high becomes a rounding error. So when you go from a dollar to $10, a dollar doesn't move the needle anymore. And by the way, that is increasing exponentially too, right? So then you go from $10 to $100. It's like $10 doesn't mean so much anymore. 100 to 1,000, same thing, 100. And then you go, you know, start really getting up there. It's like the difference between $100,000 bitcoin and $1 million bitcoin moving an order of magnitude, it's like $100,000. Whether it's, you know, point nine million or 1.1 million or 1.0 million, it's like that hundred thousand dollars isn't a very big deal anymore, you know, and so it's like our perspective shifts constantly and will continue to shift. And I think you're right. And that's something that people as like to shift focus to, like, the, you know, the current market sentiment. It's like everybody is seeming super weirdly bearish or whatever because bitcoin's been kind of just like a stablecoin, like you said. And I think that's because people still, they expect bitcoin to just like, to. To just make them instantly rich. Like, especially if you just got in, you're expecting this to just snap your fingers. You bought bitcoin. All right, where's my ticket? You know, ticket to the. To fancy town or, I don't know, wherever you go when you. When you get super rich. But the reality is that it's like, if you miss those couple of days in the year where bitcoin does make those violent moves, you miss out on all its gains. And there's only like, you know, a dozen or something of those in the whole year. And so your advice of, like, look, just stack sats consistently, try to create value, try to bring in as much fiat as you can and pump that into bitcoin, because you will look back and think, I should have been stacking harder. Like, I should have been stacking harder. I don't know. It's. It's. What are you seeing right now in. In the broader market? I hate asking questions like this, but, like, I'm genuinely curious from the perspective of, like, what's your vibe on everything right now? To me, I'm insanely bullish right now. And everybody seems to be just like. Like, bitcoiners are fighting amongst themselves, which I've come to realize that's a symptom of bitcoins being boring or bitcoin's not doing well. Then bitcoiners start fighting themselves instead of fighting the central bankers. Like, what's your vibe check right now?

A (48:22)

I love vibe check questions.

B (48:24)

Yes.

A (48:25)

So what's the. So the vibe is this, right? Bitcoin has a way of. Of. Or at least my vibe. Bitcoin has a way of like, taking your expectations and grounding and pulverizing them into very fine particles. And this year is the year after the having. So historically, what tends to happen to bitcoin the year after the having is it tends to have its most parabolic year or. Parabolic. Yeah, parabolic performance. That has not happened this year. So a lot of people right now are Getting bored to death. Because essentially when Trump was inaugurated, the price of Bitcoin was 109,000. Today, when we're recording this right now, price of Bitcoin is $106,887. That means in 10 months. So we're 10 months older. Bitcoin has literally gone sideways and there's been some valleys and peaks along the way, but in the grand scheme of things, it's just been a stable coin, right? So that's very strange for bitcoiners. Bitcoiners have not been used to those types of markets. We've been used to markets where you've had retail driven mania phases, right? The first one that I remember, of course, being 2017, where the January, the price was around $1,000. In December at 20,000, that's 20x. And then the 2020, 2021 bull market, you know, it went from, I think it was like 3,500, which was the bottom, to 69,000, which is insanity, right? And this year, this cycle, it's been very strange because 2023 was fantastic. 202024 was, was pretty good as well. But we've gone from 16k to 126k over a span of three years. But the third year, nothing's really happened, right? So I tend to, like, look at markets where the exact opposite happens to what everyone is expecting. And what I saw this year, and I was guilty of that myself, of course, when I was getting very excited when, when Trump was inaugurated, what I saw this year was the expectation that bitcoin was going to go bananas. And everyone thought it, it reminded me of like 2020, where everyone thought that Bitcoin was going to hit 100,000 because Plan B was posting these videos on Twitter and on YouTube and 100,000 was guaranteed. And, and we peaked at 69K and then we went down to 16K, right? Like that's, that's what happened in 2021, this cycle. What is happening in 2025? The exact opposite of what everyone was anticipating, which was everyone was anticipating a run up. We never got a run up. It just went sideways. And now what I'm, what I'm seeing is that everyone is basically everyone and their mother. Their scent, the sentiment right now is horrible, right? It's very, very bad. And it's very, very bad because everyone's, you know, if you've been in bitcoin for a while, you're a dopamine addict, right? Like those parabolas are very, very addicting. And no one's Got a dopamine hit since 2021. So people have been feening for this for four years and nothing's really happened in terms of that final parabola, final blow off movement. Now people are basically calling for the end of the cycle, saying like, look, we peaked in October, it was 2026 and now it's over. Now it's done because of the cycles. The cycles, the cycles, the cycles, the cycles. You know, it's. Bitcoin is a four year cycle. It's, it's set in stone. But there's only three data points for that, right? Like what would happen if it's January or February of 2026 and the Bitcoin price keeps going up, right? Like that would catch everybody off guard. No one be, no one would expect it. Everyone be like, no, but that's impossible because of the bitcoin cycles, right? But you know, for you to have this 60 to 70 to 80% correction, you need to have a mania face. And we haven't had it. Like if you look at the infamous Wall street cheat sheet, right, that we talk about all the time on simply, which is, you know, it's like disbelief, hope, euphoria. You get this kind of euphoric, like euphoric run up. And I don't want to hear it from people that say, no Nico, that's not going to happen because bitcoin is a 2 trillion dollar market cap and that's not going to happen, Nico, it's, it's too large of a market cap. And I'm like, dude, shut the up. Look at what happened to gold. Gold literally went parabolic and it has a, is a 30 trillion dollar market cap. So shut up. Like, I don't want to hear that. Like, that's bullshit, right? That's cope. So we, we haven't, we haven't been in a bull market in 2025. That's a very tough pill for people to swallow. But it's a fact. Bitcoin's gone sideways. And potentially in 2026, you might have a continuation of this like bull market movement. You might have a continuation of the price continuing to go up and that might end up in some type of parabola, but we haven't experienced that yet. We haven't been in a bull market since 2023 and 2024. 2025 was not a bull market. I don't care what anybody says. You look at, I know that people try to spin it and the people that send newsletters and they're like, it's been performing Amazingly, and again, these people are my friends. So I'm not trying to point anyone out, but it's like if you just look at the data, Trump, the inauguration day bitcoin price was 109k today, 10 months later, almost 11 months later, bitcoin is at $106,755. That's not a bear, that's not a bull market, bro. That's not a bull market. If anything, we've gone down just a little bit, but we've gone down, right? So yeah, man, that's kind of like the vibe check right now that I'm feeling on X. Just people are bored out of their minds. I think it's on purpose. I think since the institutions in Wall street got involved, I think they're trying to shake people out of their bags. I think they're trying to get your bitcoin and I think they're trying to get your bitcoin the way that Wall street knows how to get people's stuff, which is bore you to death and get you to sell your bitcoin for more speculative assets because you think it's going to outperform bitcoin and then before you know it, you end up with less bitcoin. I think that's what's happening, not financial advice. There's no way to, for me to know this. I'm not a fortune teller. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. But that's the vibe I'm seeing right now. The main consensus is we're going to have a blow off top at the end of the year and 2026 is going to be a bear market. But bitcoin has shown historically that the main consensus is always wrong. So I don't know, man. Strap on, we'll see what happens.

B (55:43)

I think you mean strap in, but strap on too, that's fine.

A (55:47)

I said strap on because I'm with you.

B (55:48)

So yeah, sure, sure. I think that's fair. I mean, the other thing to point out is that you talked about people that you knew coming up in bitcoin, right, that had been were mining Bitcoin on CPUs, right? Insane. We can't even conceptualize this now with the complexity of ASIC rigs and public bitcoin mining operations now. But if you think about this, there are still massive, massive whales out there. So many of them. And it's hard for us to conceptualize. We saw a couple of them liquidate a lot of coins or at multiple points earlier this year. What was that one? That one sell like 80. 80,000 or something. 80,000 Bitcoin. I can't even wrap my brain around that. That's mind blowing. And those coins have been sitting there for many, many years. So I think there is a lot of that happening too. Like for, you know, a lot of people who held from a couple dollars or mined it for free on a CPU or a GPU, they're like, yeah, okay, I'll sell some corn. Over 100. Over US$100,000? Yeah, like, why not? I've got thousands of them. So I think you do see a lot of that. I think also, yeah, there's going to be Wall street games that get played because this is where we're swimming in a different, different pool now, right? There's different players here and they are paying attention. Like they are undoubtedly paying attention. I love the. I was watching your show. You were live on simply bitcoin right before you hopped on here. You know, the life of a podcaster is a, is a tiresome one. But you guys were talking about that clip that's going around of Jamie Dimon at I don't even know what sort of summit it is or whatever, but he basically does everything he can not to say the word bitcoin. You know, he's talking about his jpm, their JPM coin and you know, all the stable coins and blockchain technology, all of these kind of just buzzwordy type things. And it's just funny because it's like he knows, like he knows that bitcoin is the one, right? He's just doing everything he can not to say that because once a guy like that comes around to it, it's like when, you know, Blackrock, Larry Fink came around to it, that's a big deal. People pay attention to that in that fiat world, in that Wall street world. I mean, bitcoiners pay attention to it. We, you know, for different reasons, but we pay attention to it. And so it is interesting. I think we're going to see a lot of capitulation in the coming years from that tradfi world. We're already seeing it. We're already seeing the more of an embrace of this. And a lot of that I think does come to the administration being more positive. But then at the same time it's like, man, we've been a stablecoin this year, right? I'm still extremely bullish on what may happen the rest of this year, but I'm also patient because it's like, I don't know, for me, I don't Mind that. Bitcoin has been a stablecoin. My DCA is hit. I've got DCA set up every hour of every day just for fun. Why not? I'm trying to. I'm trying to level that price out as much as possible. And so it's like, yeah, this is great. My DCA keeps hitting. I keep stacking, you know, keep. Keep trying to create value in this world and bring in a little more fiat that I can use, try to earn in bitcoin when I can and, yeah, live a peaceful life and spend time with my family. And that's like, that's not so bad. So we're going to get that mania again, I'm sure. But I don't mind a little bit of a break, you know?

A (59:04)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, like, you asked me a question about the vibes, right? And I think what you've just described is something that I call bitcoin Zen, which is, I think what everybody bitcoiners should aspire to get to, which is this idea of stay humble, stack sats, focus on your craft, and don't play any games in terms of taking margin or none of the shitcoiner stuff. Things to do, just stay humble, stack stats, make sure you have more bitcoin than the day before, and life is going to be okay. You know, it really is. And like, bitcoin has this way of, like, really, it really gives you this optimism for the future that I think that the rest of the world is. Is just. They don't even know this. This is even. Even a possibility. Like, one of the things that you hear in the United States is like, you always hear this. It's like a. Like a narrative. Like, the American dream is dead. Yeah. If you're denominating in fiat, if you're denominating in bitcoin, the American dream is thriving. Not only is it the American dream, it's the worldwide dream. Now, anyone could have the American dream, live the American dream if they use bitcoin as their unit of account. So, yeah, man. I mean, one thing is that the vibe on bitcoin, Twitter, on bitcoin X, and for us content creators that literally have to talk about bitcoin every single day, and then the other thing is reaching bitcoin's end, which is, I think, what should be the aspiration of a bitcoiner? If you're just getting into this game, everything's going to be fine. Just be fine. Don't play any games, don't try to shit coin, don't buy things on margin, literally. Stay humble, stack sats, do it for four years, you're going to realize it's a good idea and then do it for eight years, and you're going to realize that you're in a much better financial position than you were when you started. Right? That's kind of like the rule of thumb that I get. Tell Everybody. And then 12 years, I don't know. I haven't been there yet. I'll let you know when I get there. But again, it's reaching this bitcoin zen where you literally don't care. And I've talked to people that have gone into bitcoin super early, and we just hang out and we're just drinking beer, smoking cigars. And I've talked to them and if the price gets brought up, they're like, what's the price? Again, they don't even care. Right? Of course they don't care. Because again, these are people that bought Bitcoin sub$100. These are people that are buying Bitcoin, like 10, $20 for coin. Do you think they give a shit if bitcoin goes from 120k to 106k to 80k? Like, they don't give a flying F, Right? So, you know, try to reach bitcoin Zen kids. That's the goal. Walker has reached bitcoin's end. Try to reach bitcoin's end, and I think your life will be much better for it.

B (62:16)

It's good advice because it's a. It's a happier place to be when you realize, I think that the, the switch that gets flipped is when you're excited about the price going down because it means you can buy a little bit more. It means your Fiat goes just a little bit farther than it would have the day before. And that's. That's an exciting thing, right? Because all of us, again, when you look back retrospectively, you're like, I wish I would have bought more bitcoin when it was cheaper. A dip is when it is cheaper. That, that's literally like, it's what you always beg for. But then when it comes, what do you do? You're all. You're bemoaning the fact that all bitcoin dipped. And I just, and I just bought some yesterday when it was higher. And if I would have just bought it today, I would have had more. But it's like, no, no, this is your opportunity. This is your opportunity to buy. At that time that you said you would, you told yourself you would do it. You promised yourself. Yeah, when bitcoin dips, I'm gonna. I'm gonna buy more this time. I'm not just gonna, you know, sit on my hands or, you know, whatever, but it's like, I don't know. But human beings were fickle creatures, right? This is not me shaming anyone. This is like a natural human response. We wanna buy when it's blowing off, when the top's blowing off, not when the bottom's about to form. Like, that's what we do. But if you can get past those human emotions, if you can find that bitcoin Zen like you said, Nico, I think that that's what you should strive to get to be happy when the dip presents itself. Because it's giving you an opportunity to save just a little bit more than you would have to send your dirty Fiat petrodollar cuck bucks, your war dollars just a little bit farther, or your Canadian Monopoly money or your British Monopoly money or any of the Monopoly monies around here. Even the, you know, the Swiss monopoly money, it's. It's still Monopoly money. It's just a little bit better Monopoly money, but you get to go a little bit farther.

A (64:01)

100%. It's so interesting, too, about Switzerland. It's like, if any country could have perfected Fiat, it would have been them. And they. They almost got it right, but they still have, like, that 1 2% inflation, even though they have, like, this crazy discipline and stuff like that. And bitcoin is still better, right? So, yeah, man, it's really simple as that. And bitcoin really does give you this escape valve. It really gives you this opportunity to live this life that you want to live. But again, it doesn't come free. You do have to pay your price of tuition. It takes years of just discipline, stacking, and then eventually, like I said, I think you're going to be in a much better financial position than where you were when you started. And I will say this, like, you know, at $107,000, I still think that there's enormous upside. You know, left, right. I truly believe we're going to hit, you know, 10, $20 million per coin. And if you're in your 20s or your 30s, like Walker and I, like, you know, by the time we're in our 50s, right, you know, or 40s or late 40s, like, you're gonna be good. You're gonna be more than good, right? So, like, that's an enormous opportunity that, you know, you might. And it's an ego thing Like, I get it. Like I understand. Like I felt the same thing. Like, you know, when I started stacking bitcoin, like it's like, no, man, like I missed the boat. I know this person that bought, you know, you know, at $50, like I'm buying at 500 or I'm buying at a thousand or I'm buying at 10,000. Like I'm not going to do that like that, bro, because you know, this person bought whatever that's 100% your ego talking. But if you like look at it from like first principles and if you look at it from like just a pure non emotional, logical perspective, like what is that? $100,000 to $10 million and then $100,000 to what, $20 million? What is that? Like a, like a hundred X, a 200 X? Like that will fundamentally change your life, you know, and, and I don't think that there's any other asset that's going to give you that type of return with so much certainty. And I think that's like the really difficult thing to swallow because from a risk adjusted return right now is the best in time, the best time ever to invest in bitcoin. Like the early times, you've had to understand, like it was the wild fucking west. This is what people don't understand, right? Like a lot of the OGs, I would say about 50% of them lost the majority of their coins because you have to understand they bought at a dollar, but they sold at a hundred or they sold at 500. And they thought they were making a fortune. And they did. They made like a 500X, right? But they had no effing idea that it was going to go to, you know, 100,000. And then you hear the stories. I've heard multiple stories. I've heard a story, I'm not going to name who he is, but I've heard a story of someone who got in super early. He had like 10, 20, 30,000 coins. He took 10,000 coins and he bought a one bedroom apartment, you know, and this was like back in the early 2000s, I mean early 2000s, right? You know, looking back on that, you're like, that was a really bad fucking idea, right? And then I've heard stories of people again, like buying houses or buying a car. You know, they spent a hundred coins or 200 coins or 300 coins or a thousand coins on these things. But again, they had no idea that it was gonna reach a hundred thousand. And now we know bitcoin has value. Like we know this thing's going to $10 million or $20 million. So you know that if you sell your bitcoin right now, there's a high likelihood that you're probably not going to get it back, and there's a high likelihood that it's probably going to buy you a lot more tomorrow or 10 years from now than it is today. Back in those days, there was complete uncertainty that, like, it's so easy to say, oh, my God, I wish I got into Bitcoin in 2013, in 2014, in 2011. Look, even if you did get into Bitcoin in 2011, you probably wouldn't have it today because you have no idea the things that they went through. In the beginning, there was legal uncertainty. There was just uncertainty in general. Like, bitcoin wasn't a proven thing. There was no institutional interest. There was no legitimacy that it has today. So people, you know, they got a quick 10x or 20x or 30x, 40x, they cashed out, they thought they were geniuses, and then they, you know, they wrote into the sunset. I remember the first time I actually bought bitcoin to buy something on the Internet. Wink, wink. It was 2015. It's 25th, 2015. I bought Bitcoin to buy something on the Internet. Did I ever think, oh, I'm gonna use this and I'm gonna save it because this is the best money ever? No, I used it as, like, I literally used it to transact, right? It wasn't until the year after where I was like, I'm gonna buy bitcoin. And you can't even call it, say, in 2016. The idea of even calling it savings was ludicrous. It was like it wasn't even a concept yet. Remember, there was no bitcoin standard. There was no bitcoin podcast. There was no, you know, the bullish case for bitcoin. There was none of that existed. Right? Like, you were operating in a black hole. The only person who was making any type of content about bitcoin was Andreas Antonopoulos. Andreas was the only person on the face of the planet that was actually talking about this and was actually talking about how good it was. What made it different, you know, what, what. What made it stand out, its properties and all that stuff. And then, of course, Max and Stacy, nobody else on the Internet that was well known that had any type of following. It didn't exist. So you have to understand, like, you didn't know what it was. Today you buy bitcoin, you know exactly what you're Buying, right? So from a risk adjusted return basis, today is the best time in my opinion to ever buy bitcoin because the downside is extremely limited. But the upside, you still have 100 or 200, 200x left in this thing. It's just going to take a little bit longer this time.

B (70:52)

That was a great rant, by the way. It's almost like you've done this before, but no, like real talk. I think that's such a good point because everybody wants to think, well, if I had known about it way back when, I would have put everything I had into this and I would now be a, you know, a DECA billionaire. It's like, no, you wouldn't have, first of all, you wouldn't have put everything you had into it. Second of all, you wouldn't have held onto the majority of those coins. To the people that did, like, wow, seriously, like you are a rare, a very rare breed that you were able to do that. Because also like the tools, like the actual like technical tooling was nothing. There wasn't, you know, 10, 15 different hardware wallet companies, you know, like, that wasn't exist. Like you, you might have gotten it before. There were mnemonic seed phrases like, people don't realize that wasn't even a thing at the start. Like, that's why there's, you know, hard drives with tens of thousands of bitcoins sitting in, you know, landfills places. And people are like, shit, you know, what can I do? It's like you couldn't even take it in your head with you at that point. And so I think for people that's, it's, it's really important for them to understand that, like, look, you, you, you can't teleport back. I forget if I think it was maybe American Hodl. Hodl who said, like, everybody wants to, to teleport to being an og. Like, you can't, you can't do that. And everybody tries to do what they try to do with leverage. They try to do it with shitcoins. They try to do it maybe with bitcoin treasury companies and you know, you want to do whatever you want with your money, right? But understand that you cannot teleport back to being an og. What you can do is you can take your time and your energy, right, and use it to create value now and use that to stack sats right now. Because four years from now sats will be more expensive and four years from then they will be even more expensive and so on and so forth. You know, you might Just want to get some in case it catches on. Because at this point, it is catching on, but we are still so early. Like, one of the charts that I love from Jesse Myers, Croesus btc. Yep. Is that total addressable asset value market, basically, where it's like, Bitcoin is $2 trillion or 2.2. Let's round it to 2. Right now, the total wealth of the world is 1,000 trillion. 0.2% is where we're at right now. Gold is what, 20, 22 right now or 24, something like that. I'm forgetting because gold's been so volatile lately. I don't know, it doesn't seem like a very good store of value if it's so volatile. Peter Schiff. But we've got so far to go. That's why, you know, it's just, it's. It's. It's tough. I'm curious with you just because I'm thinking about, like, orange pilling people now. And it. It was easier. Easier for some people, harder for others. After Trump was like, yeah, I like Bitcoin. Like, some of my buddies were like, oh, okay, I just bought some bitcoin walker. I'm like, like, now. Like, none of the podcasts I sent you did anything. Like, all Trump had to say was, like, bitcoin good, and you're in. It's like, okay, but cool. Like, I'm glad. I'm so happy to hear that. Other people, maybe that's not going to be as much of a selling point, you know, the followers of Elizabeth Warren. But, like, do you still try? I mean, are all of your close friends and family pretty orange pilled? Like, do you still have a. Or do you still have, like, a separation? Do you have some crew, like, you know, friends that you run with that, like, still think, like, you're into this, like, funny little, like, magic Internet money hobby thing. Like, as someone who's been creating for so long, I'm just. I'm curious.

A (74:08)

Yeah, I mean, look, like, from. I used to be very militant in terms of trying to get people to, you know, buy bitcoin. And then the realization I've come to is, like, you can show people the door, but they have to open it themselves. That it's as simple as that. Like, you can literally show someone the bridge, but they have to cross the bridge themselves. And what the most. The most efficient way of orange pilling someone, in my experience has been planting the seed and then watching the seed do its thing. And then what do I mean by that? So you tell someone about bitcoin and then the price runs up, right? So you tell them, you know, let's say the price is at like, you know, $10,000, right? And you told them when it was a $10,000 and then the price runs up to 50 or $60,000, they're gonna start fucking listening to you. When that price 5X'd on them, even though you told, you told them at 10,000 and then they see it at 50,000, they're more. They're gonna listen to you and the price goes up to a hundred thousand, they're really, really going to listen to you. So for my friends and family, the only one that I haven't been able to or works at Goldman, but I think that there's a deeper meaning there. But basically every, every single other one of my, like my high school friends, my family, my immediate family, my, you know, my parents in law, anyone, I've. Every single person I've been able to orange pill and it's been the same pattern every single time I told them about this when it was a whole lot cheaper, they dismissed it, they called me crazy, they thought I was stupid, etc. Etc. And then number go up. And then number go up kept doing number go up and they're like, oh, you know what, okay, this kid I've got. I've gotten to the point, Walker, where like I've literally had people take me out to lunch and apologize and say I'm sorry, I should have listened to you, right? Because they kind of feel guilty because they're like, wow, I've really made him feel like shit. Or I may really made him feel bad or I called him crazy or called him whatever. And then you know, they finally realize it. Like, you know, he was right, right? And you keep hearing that again, it's like I should have listened to you. You're right. And then I think the most satisfying thing to me is the friends and family that you've brought on along the way. And they've, you know, been in bitcoin for a cycle. Like they've been in bitcoin for like four years and you know that they've, you've brought them along the way. You know, they're like, Nico, this has changed my life. Like this is crazy. Like I cannot believe this. And it's because they've held, right? Like they've just held. They're saying stuff like end the Fed. They're saying stuff like fuck Fiat. They have no idea what any of that means. They still call me to like, spend their bitcoin, you know, like, they still don't know how to use a hardware wallet, but they're hodling that shit, right? So, you know, like, that to me, is extremely satisfying. But to answer your question, the most efficient way and effective way of orange pilling someone is planting the seed, telling them one time they'll remember the price when you told them. They'll all. They always remember the price. And then coming back a couple years later, seeing the price double, triple, quadruple, you know, 5, 6, 7, X, where it was from when you initially told them. And then that's when they, like, they're like, okay, you know what? All right, I'll get some. This is probably a good idea. You know, it never fails. That's literally how it's happened to me every single time. But you can't force someone. You cannot force someone. This is something that I wish I knew in the beginning because it would have saved me a ton of time and a ton of energy. And it was actually fucking satoshi who said this, right? It's like, look, I don't have time to. I don't have time to explain this to you, right? Like, I don't have time to explain this to you. You know, maybe it's a good idea to get some just in case it catches on. Like, those quotes are so prophetic. Like, they were so deep. I didn't. I didn't even, like, you know, they were so. There are simple phrases, man. But, like, it was so on point because I spent so much time and energy trying to force people into taking the orange pill when they weren't ready to take the orange pill. They just weren't ready for where they're. Where they were at in their lives as an individual. They were not ready to take the orange pill and understand the benefits of bitcoin and understand what being a bitcoiner is, right? Like, they weren't ready for it as human beings, right? But as time goes by, they start to question. And bitcoin has this very interesting. I've been on a tangent, but bitcoin is this, like, very interesting thing, Walker, where, like, you hold bitcoin and just by the mere fact of you holding changes who you are, you start to ask questions about life, about money, about government, about the state that you would have never have asked if you weren't holding bitcoin, right? So, you know, Max Kaiser has a quote. You don't change bitcoin. Bitcoin changes you. Right? That is extremely true. So, you know, again, some people have been living in the fiat matrix their entire lives. And here you are basically telling them, like, look, like, I have the solution for you. And it's not about voting for the guy on the left or voting for the guy on the right. It's not about the red party, the blue party. It's literally about opting out of broken money. I have the solution for you. It's super fucking easy. You don't even have to. You don't even have to wait to vote for somebody. And in my experience, the majority of people, they just don't want to wake up from the fiat matrix. They're not ready for it. They will be eventually. They wake up. But initially, when you tell them, they're just not ready.

B (80:21)

First of all, this is always a safe space for tangents, rants, digressions, anything. Always a safe space for it. So they're always welcome. You're spot on. And it's a. I think that's a realization, like. Because I've talked to a lot of bitcoiners about this who have been in longer than I have, and a lot of them, you know, when I was kind of going through my, like, evangelism phase, but, like, my IRL evangelism phase, because obviously now I'm an Internet evangelist. But when I was going through that phase, a lot of the people I talked to that had been around for longer were kind of like, yeah, you'll get over that. And I'm like, no, I won't. I need to make sure that I drill it into everyone's heads at every possible chance. Every party I go to, there's a reason. It's the meme, you know, like, your wife being like, don't talk about bitcoin, except for me. It's also like, my wife's doing it too, you know? So, like, we're. We're both like, there's no one to tell us to shut up about it. Like, we're both just going in. But. And then you get to a point where you're like, fuck, this has worked a couple of times, but it really hasn't worked that much. And it goes back to what you said, where it's like, you can get, like, you can give someone an orange pill, right? You can say, here you go. Here's this thing. You can take this when you want to. You cannot force them to take it. Like, you know, yeah, you wait long enough, they'll be taking the suppository. But still, like, you know, whatever turn of phrase you want. But you can't force them to take it. They have to want to do it. Because if they don't actually want to do it and they do buy, then what's going to happen is. And they're not. They're not ready for that yet. They're going to end up selling at the first drawdown, at a loss, blaming you for it and saying, well, I'm not touching that thing again. Like, you know, thanks a lot, Nico. Thanks a lot, Walker. Like, I just. I just lost some. Some Fiat petrodollar cuck bucks on that advice. Like, that was terrible. So it's like, you know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it by bitcoin. Like, you just gotta. You gotta let people know, hey, I'm. I'm. I'm here. Like, I'm. I'm into this thing. If you want to talk about it, I'm super happy to do so. And we'll answer any questions you have. That's what I found is one of the. Once somebody starts really asking questions, like, let them do more of the talking. What do you know about this? What do. What do you think? How. What's your understanding of this? Because, like, I get it. It can be super confusing. Nobody understands it at first. I sure didn't. But giving people that space to just ask questions, I think reveals a lot and ultimately makes them a lot more comfortable with it. And, like, especially for, like, close friends and family, like, why are we shilling them bitcoin? Because we care about them. And we found this thing that we know can make their lives better. Cause it made our life better. But, like, those are the people that you really want to make sure, you know, you want to go with the foot in the door technique, not the door in the face, you know, but it's tough because you're stoked about this and you to tell them how fucked everything is and how this is the solution. But turns out not everybody's ready to hear that yet. And that's okay, you know?

A (82:59)

Yeah.

B (83:00)

Just takes time.

A (83:01)

Yeah. It reminds me of the meme of, you know, the. The guy with the grill and, you know, and he was like, that's cool. Did you see the game this weekend? Like, that's. Yeah, exactly. He's like, that's literally what it reminds me of. Now I've gotten to the point where, like, you know, I got invited to a really good friend of mine, his wedding. And it was a beautiful wedding, like Italy, and it was just beautiful. And I. And I haven't seen them, like, you know, and these are kids that I grew up with in high school, right? I haven't seen them in a while. And, you know, like, you know, I remember, like, four years ago, I would hang out with them, and all I would do is just talk about bitcoin, and I would, like, look back on that. I'm like, dude, that must have been so fucking annoying. And so, like, now I hang out with them, and I literally just shoot the shit. Like, I, I'm just a normal human being, like, whatever. And they'll say, hey, you know, how's the bitcoin thing going? I, I, I literally force myself to pivot the conversation away from it, and they'll be like, why don't you want to talk about? I was like, dude, this is all I talk about all day, you know? Like, I don't want to talk about this, you know? And then I'll be like, business is doing good, you know, but, like, I try my hardest to not be that guy in the party that's like, you know, trying to force people, you know, force people into. Into taking the orange pill. I've showed it to them. I think that's maybe. Maybe as a friend and as a family member, you could say that you have a responsibility as a bitcoiner to at least tell people what you know. But again, man, it. People are stubborn, dude. Like, people are just so used to the system. Like, people. It's just a convenience thing, man. Like, they've lived their entire system, their entire life with this perception of what money is and this perception of how society should be and how society runs and. And what the role of. I think this is the deepest question, Walker, by the way, in my opinion, because I think that we've already answered the question, what is money? That. That question has been answered. I think that question was answered, really, in the last, you know, five years or so. Like, so many good books, like Lynn, Larry Lepard, Safedine, Michael Saylor, all his podcast, like, the question of what is money? Has been answered. Now the world has to wake up to the fact that that question has been answered. But the question that I think is the most important, that has not yet to be answered, but I think is going to be answered, is what is the role of the state in society? What is the role of the state in society? As bitcoiners, we inherently know that money can exist without the state. If money can exist without the state, what is the role of the state? And I think what bitcoin has shown is that the state is going to try to justify its role as the gatekeeper of money, as, you know, the guardian of money, even though it's no longer necessary. We've found a superior system. We found a system that has rules without rulers. We found a system that is completely transparent. We found a system that, you know, basically forces fiscal discipline, right? And the state, you could see it, they've kind of. It depends on the jurisdiction and whatever. You see this by how Bitcoin's getting into politics, right? Like this last election, Bitcoin played a huge role in it. Like, people don't realize this, right?

B (86:51)

Massive.

A (86:52)

So that question, I think in the next decade is going to be. It's going to be massive. And I think we're going to have two choices. Humanity is going to have two choices in front of it, right? It's going to have the choice of Bitcoin, which is peace, prosperity, opportunity, hope for the future, optimism. And then the other side, which I call slavery, which is central bank digital currencies, which is just a continuation of the fiat system on effing steroids, right? But those are the two choices ahead of humanity. There is no in between. They're trying to get rid of cash. They're trying to get rid of cash. Europe is force force feeding the whole central bank digital currency thing. So that's the fork in the road that we have. So yeah, as a bitcoiner, you have the responsibility of telling people about Bitcoin. You want to get as many people on your side of the football as possible before the game starts. But, you know, that's really the fork in the road for humanity. Like, do we, do we want our kid? Walker, we just had kids, right? Do we want our kids to grow up in this dystopian fucking nightmare? Because that's what central bank digital currencies will enable. Like, look, even in the United States, Walker, you and I are both American despite the First Amendment. You know, the previous administration was literally telling social media companies to fucking censor the free speech of Americans. And then these are the same people that are telling you, oh, listen, trust me, with central bank digital currencies, bro, we're going to respect your privacy. Go fuck yourself. I don't trust you at all. No fucking way in hell. Right? You don't deserve that trust. You've abused that trust. What you did in 2008 was a fucking crime. They destroyed the future. The, the opportunity that the millennial and the, the Gen Z, it was completely stolen from us. Why do you think nobody can afford a house in our generations Walker, it's because of the crime that happened in fucking 2008. And you know what? I'm not buying the Boomers bags. I'm not fucking buying them. You want your overpriced homes? I'm gonna rent that shit. I'm not gonna fucking buy it from you. Fuck that. I'm gonna buy bitcoin. My purchasing power is gonna increase over time. I'm gonna be good. I'm just, you know. Okay, let's say, you know, my. My. You know, my net worth's gone up 5x whatever, because Bitcoin's gone up. I'll just upgrade to a new rental. I'll lock that in for, you know, two, three, four years, whatever, you know, upgrade my lifestyle. But do you think I'm gonna shill out, you know, like, what? Like, what's the average home in America these days? Like, 500,000, 400. You think I'm gonna shill out four Bitcoin for that? You. I'm not doing it right. So anyways, I for. Completely forgot what you asked me, but it got me down this route.

B (89:56)

I love it. I forgot it too, man. I forgot it too. No, but. Okay. Fucking grade A rant. One of the things you talked about, that deep question, I think you're exactly right on that. The question of what is the purpose of the state, Right? What is the state's actual function? This is something I think about a lot. I think about it very often because I don't think most people don't think about this at all. And I'm very much of the view. And that view has been informed by the writings of people like Frederic Bastiation, who I think summarizes this very well. But this idea that the state has one purpose, one purpose, and that purpose is to enforce the law. Okay, then what is the law? Well, the purpose of the law is to organize for the collective defense of private property. That's what the law is there to do. The law is there to make sure that when my neighbor Bob steals from me and he takes my cow, that I don't have to go over there and beat the shit out of Bob and hang him from a tree and. And say, give me back my fucking cow, Bob. Like, no, it's so that people who we have designated as enforcers of that law can go to him and say, hey, Bob, you got to give that cow back. And by the way, we're going to fine you, take you to jail, whatever, because you're a cow thief and I don't have to go there and get my hands dirty, right? I don't have to go there and enact violence on that person because they violated my property. So we are basically contracting out the ability to commit violence. That's what it does now. Sounds pretty bad. Sounds like something that could really get out of hand. If the government, the body that is supposed to enforce that law, that we're giving the blessing to commit violence on our behalf, if they got too big, if their tentacles went too far, if they got too bloated, that would be a really bad thing because their only purpose is to enforce the law. And the purpose of that law is to organize for the collective defense of private property, which means the government is supposed to protect us from people who would plunder our private property. But the government has become the one who is plundering our private property. They do it with taxation, under threat of violence. They do it with inflation without you having any say in it. They are stealing your life, they're stealing your life's work, and there is nothing you can do about it. There's nothing within the existing paradigm that you can do about it, because the system feeds upon itself. And it doesn't matter if it's Republicans or Democrats or red or blue or whatever color you are in your country. They just make the government bigger. Trump said he was going to shrink, you know, shrink things down, right? And cut all these things. And like, nothing was meaningfully cut, right? Because as Lyn Alden says, nothing stops this train. Fiscal dominance is here. It's not going anywhere, right? But the government's purpose has become completely perverted because the one thing that they're supposed to do, which is protect us, protect our private property, they don't do. They fail at. And in fact, they take part in that plundering. So, like, the state has failed in that respect. Like this. That's all they're supposed to do. Like this gets back to the beginning of the conversation with Bukele, right? What has he done? He has protected the private property of his citizens. What is the most basic form of private property you have? Well, it's your own body. It's not getting killed, right? That's like before anything else. Before you worry about your house or anything else, you don't want you and your family to be killed by plunderers. And El Salvador was full of plunderers. You remove those plunderers, that's a good thing. And I am very glad that Bitcoin exists, because Bitcoin gives us a money that is not subject to the whims of the plunderers. And it's especially like the random thief can't take those words out of your head, right? And neither can the government and they are the biggest plunderer of all. And so when I said, you know, there's nothing we can do from inside this system, I mean that I don't think the system fixes itself from within. If it could have fixed itself from within, it would have fixed itself from within. But it's a self perpetuating, bloated kleptocratic beast that just devours everything in its path to grow larger. The only way to fix it is to fix it from the outside, to fix it from the parallel system that we're building. And that gives me a lot of hope because I see people like yourself, like so many bitcoiners we just saw in Lugano, who are actively building these tools that we need to exist in this parallel system to be strong. We have cryptography, we have strong encryption, we have bitcoin, we have peer to peer messaging that can't be censored. We have Noster where we can live stream and say fuck you YouTube and they can't shut us down. That's a beautiful thing that gives me so much hope. There are many reasons to be despairing in this world. And if you didn't know about all these other incredible, these incredible tools of hope like bitcoin, like Noster, like all these other incredible freedom technologies, you would be nihilistic. But when you do know about them, yeah, you're realistic. You know how bad things are, but you're so optimistic about how good they can be. And the fact that, yeah, it may get, it's going to get messy in the short term, undoubtedly, but in the long run, I think our kids are going to grow up in a better world and a fairer, more just world, hopefully with much smaller governments. That's the. If I could leave our kids, one thing, it'd be governments that are as small as is humanly fucking possible. We'll see, we'll see how far we get.

A (95:15)

I think that's the utopian dream of what, what bitcoiners want. And I think it comes down to, you know, again, like the, the, the is the original founding vision of the United States, which was limited government. And they did, and they did everything in their power by the way, to set up a system where they realized that and they're, they're a geniuses. And again I'm. This is coming from a first generation American, like the American system Was set up in a way to protect the people from the government. It literally has been built that way, is structured that way. That's why the states have so much sovereignty. That's why the first amendment is what it is. That's why the second amendment is literally the right to have effing guns. Right? Like, they did that on purpose. They did that because they knew that the state could potentially become tyrannical. Right? And then you put into the mix the state's ability to literally fund itself through money printing. And you have what you have today in all of the Western world, Right? This is what you have today. And politicians don't feel like they have. They don't feel like. They don't feel like. They don't need to. Why would you feel accountable if all of a sudden. Why would you feel. Why would you feel like you're accountable to someone if you don't? Your form. How do I say this? Under a bitcoin standard, your way of raising revenue, the only way would be through direct taxation. Under a fiat standard, your way of raising revenue. Hitting the money, like hitting the P button on the keyboard. Boom, print bomb, bing, bom, boom. This is where I. Because that's true. Look, the United States ever. This year, this last year, it spent $2 trillion more than it collected in tax revenue. The GDP of El Salvador is $32 billion. The United States. The United States spent 2 trillion. Right? That's more than the GDP of most countries on planet Earth. Just to kind of give you guys an idea of how big the deficit was, how did they spend the. How did they do that? They printed the difference. So if politicians don't feel like they have any constraint whatsoever, they can spend the money on God knows what, whatever they want. People don't believe that they're getting taxed because the money in their checking account looks. It's like, oh, it's. I have a hundred dollars. They don't realize it's. It's now $80 because of the amount of money they printed. So it's this very inferior, this very insidious form of taxation that they use to fund themselves, pay themselves. And then the secondary effect of that is the government gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Now, here's the thing about the government. The government isn't productive. It doesn't make anything. It doesn't produce anything. The only way the government generates revenue, if you'd like to call it that, to kind of allude to what you were talking about earlier, Walker, is through what? Plunder, Taxation. They're literally grabbing stuff from you to keep themselves alive, right? So it becomes this, like, endless loop, man. And this is where we are today. And this is. This is the thing that bitcoin fixes because it allows you to opt out of that and say, listen, I just don't want to participate in this anymore. Like, I'm not saying elections aren't important. I think elections are extremely important during this transitionary period that we're living through. But the most important vote you can make as an individual is not voting for Team Blue or Team Red. It's literally voting what you're going to do with your money, your time, your energy, and where you're going to put that into. Is it going to be Bitcoin or is it going to be the monopoly money? Because if it's the monopoly money, you're funding that said system that is stealing from you and it's failing in the most basic responsibility that it has. That's the whole point. We pay taxes. We literally pay taxes for these basic fucking services, and they can't even do that. I mean, again, I love the US because it's so diversified with each states. Some states are run better than the others, so there's competition, and that's fantastic. But, you know, there's some states in the United States that they. They literally fail on the most basic, fundamental thing, which is just protect exactly what you said. Protect just your. Your body you're in. You're just yourself. They fail in that. So then you got to ask yourself, why the fuck am I paying all these, like, what are all these taxes for? This is fucking crazy. And the reason they literally hate Naim Bukele and they call him a danger to democracy, is literally because he's showing to the world, which is very dangerous for them, that, hey, look, you can have a functional government that fulfills the basic needs of the people. Look at that. How crazy is that? Look, it is actually possible. That's why they hate him. That's why they fear this tiny country with a $32 billion GDP. That's why they tried to pass a bill in the House of Representatives that was going to look into El Salvador and how El Salvador was a danger to democracy, completely ignoring the fact that you have Guatemala, that's on top of El Salvador, that's tyrannical country. It's gone down the collectivist route. You have Cuba, you have Venezuela. Let's completely ignore these countries. Let's completely ignore North Korea. Let's complete this. Whatever. Let's focus on one of the most brilliant success stories that the Americas has ever seen In a country that shouldn't have that because it's a very small country, it's a very poor country. Like El salvador is still developing. I love El Salvador. I love what they're doing. That, that that country is going to be like. It's. It's, you know, like the meme that you see, like what, what your city would look like on a bitcoin standard. It's all this, it's all futuristic, right? Like that's what El Salvador is going to be in, in, in a decade. I have no doubt in my mind. But you got to ask yourself, you know, why are they so hyper focused on this tiny little country? And the answer for that is simple. Because they're doing it right. They're actually fulfilling the role of government. And for all these larping politicians that are not doing that despite collecting the taxes, it makes them look bad. And rather than, you know, adjusting their behavior, it's much easier to call naim bukele a fascist dictator.

B (102:24)

That was maybe one of the best, bringing it full circle opportunities I've ever had in the show, Nico. And, and you're exactly right. Like they, they are scared. Like, power loves the status quo. Ultimately, power needs the status quo. It's what, it's what gives them their power. They need to maintain that monopoly on violence. They need to maintain that monopoly on the printing press. We've separated money and state. Like satoshi did that for us, which is amazing. And we've, you know, kept it separate. As long as bitcoin stays decentralized and secure, money and state are separated. Right? That doesn't mean the state's not going to try and get its greedy little paws on your bitcoin. It doesn't mean they're not going to try and stack as much as they can. Of course they will, because bitcoin's winning. That's why every nation, state, every corporation will eventually hold bitcoin. It's why every individual will want to hold bitcoin. But the great thing is that it doesn't matter how much they still can't control it. And then that beautiful bitcoin game theory sets in where it's like, well, you don't want to screw up this thing that you hold a lot of. And then that's a beautiful, virtuous cycle. And it's going to be really interesting to see what El Salvador looks like in the next five, 10, 15 years. It's already transformed. If they can keep it that way, if they can keep our own CIA over here from getting in there and trying to interfere, which I'm sure there's no way that they're not doing, I think that they're going to be. They already are a country that's on the up and up, but I think that trajectory there, they're going parabolic over there. But, Nico, want to be conscious of your time. You've been. You've been streaming all day already. You know, a podcaster's work is never done. I'm so glad we got a chance to do this. Dude, this was a treat. People probably, if they're listening to the show, already know where to find you. But where do you want to send them anyway? Just to. Just to make sure they. They get. And check out your channels if they haven't already.

A (104:13)

Yeah, you can find me. Just you could search simply bitcoin and know whether on your podcast or your, you know, your platform of choice, and you'll find us there. And I'm super happy because I wasn't a bitcoin podcaster and now I'm a bitcoin podcaster because I've been on the bitcoin podcast. So, you know, glad to have you here.

B (104:33)

You're welcome. Open doors open anytime now. Now that we've gotten the ball rolling, we need to have a podcaster summit, I think, you know, like a bitcoin, you can only go to this, this, this summit if you're a bitcoin podcaster. We need to see your RSS feed, you know, like, let's make it happen.

A (104:47)

Yeah. Well, Walker, it's been an honor. Thank you so much for having me and I had a great time. Really appreciate it.

B (104:53)

The honor was mine, sir. And thank you to everybody who tuned in on nostr. Thank you for the folks that sent Zaps. It is very much appreciated. This show live streams just on Nostr and the rest, it'll be published afterwards. And you guys didn't even hear the initial rant that actually allowed Nico to bring it full circle back to El Salvador. So I guess you're just gonna have to listen to it on Fountain as well. And maybe even you if you want to give those guys your eyeballs. But, Nico, thanks so much, dude. Great seeing you and look forward to doing it again soon. I know we'll see each other in El Salvador next, so, yeah, looking forward to that.

A (105:24)

Likewise, man. Talk to you soon.

B (105:34)

And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast. Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening and share it with your friends, family and strangers on the Internet. Find me on noster@primal.net walker and this podcast@primal.netcoin on X, YouTube and Rumble. Just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram @tcoin podcast. Head to the Show Notes Notes to grab sponsor links. Head to substack.comwalkeramerica to get episodes emailed to you. And head to bitcoin podcast.net for everything else. Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.