A (2:33)

Well that's kind of the wild thing. I think we talked about this the last time. It was only a couple days ago. It feels like just yesterday because it was almost just yesterday we talked about this. I think just that, that idea that like with like each successive order of magnitude movement upwards with bitcoin, any, any dips like, like, like the previous all time high just becomes a rounding error. Right. Like, like now the, you know, okay. In this case actually I guess previous all time high like 69,000. So actually I guess that's like not really rounding error anymore. But to me that just says like I don't know, we've got, we've got a long, we've got a long ways to go. Like bitcoin is going to go up into the right with a lot of volatility obviously. And it kind of feels like, I mean I don't, I don't want to give them too much credit, but I also do. The 58k gang, it feels like it is a magnet now. I don't know if we go back to 58k, maybe we tag 85k. I'm not sure. I'm not a, you know, astrology for men TA guy. Like that's, it's not my shtick, you know, I'm a talking out of my ass, you know, pleb slop kind of guy. Exactly. But boy, it's interesting because right now I feel like also the folks that are probably panicking the most right now are obviously understandably people who got in. Maybe they bought the top. I don't know how much retail was actually retail, which is just an interesting word. I don't know how many plebs, new plebs actually came in right at the 126k, whatever it was top and started buying it. Never really. And we talked about this a little bit last time. It never really felt like There was this huge influx of new plebs. Maybe there were and they just weren't on bitcoin X or nostr. I don't know. But it still feels like, again, nothing has changed. We've just had like an insanely bullish couple of weeks with medium of exchange news coming out. And to me, that's like some of the most bullish stuff. Like, Another company buying MicroStrategy bought what, 8,000 more Bitcoin today.

B (4:35)

Yeah, I just saw that. You know what's funny? I scrolled past it. That's what, like, the sailor bias have gotten to now. It's like, oh, he bought. I didn't even look at the amount. It was just like, continue on our way.

A (4:43)

Sure.

B (4:45)

Yeah.

A (4:45)

Well, you know, did you see. Actually, just. Just prior to us hopping on here, I mean, maybe a couple hours ago, I saw Bukele announced that El Salvador had just bought an additional thousand bitcoin. And I think their total stack is like 7,000 or something. Like, it's like their total stack is like less than sailors buy today was. But, like, they're not just drawing on Infinite Credit and different. All these different instruments too, Right. Like, they are a nation state who is doing their best to buy as much as they can. And like, this is like a pretty. It's got to be one of their biggest, if not their biggest buys, at least certainly in a very, very long time. Like, they've been a bitcoin a day for a while, and now it's like a thousand of them in a day. Like, it's a lot of corn. It's a lot of corn. I don't know. It's interesting.

B (5:32)

And meanwhile, timing too, right? Because it's right when we're dropping down to like, so Vu. Kelly is a master of marketing. I have mixed feelings. I don't really know which way to go. Like, I'm undecided on El Salvador and I get kind of different things from different directions.

A (5:44)

But have you been down there real quick?

B (5:46)

I have not been down there to check it out yet. Have you been. Did you just pull a Have you been Douglas Murray on me?

A (5:51)

I didn't actually. Okay, fuck that. Fuck that. Have you been. God, that. I didn't even mean to, but now I feel like a real douche. Douche canoe. No, but okay to be. I meant that more as like, I was not trying to have a gotcha more so, like, I think you'd really enjoy it. I think I would.

B (6:08)

Yeah.

A (6:09)

I went on there twice in 2022, Carl and I did unintentionally went twice went the first time very intentionally. And then we're like, oh, I hope we can come back sometime soon. And then we came back like a couple months later for adopting bitcoin and we didn't get a chance to go back again until this past January. And it's amazing to see how much has changed really. We can get into that a little bit, but I digress. Sorry to get us off topic, but continue.

B (6:31)

No, in the sense that like it was just, it's very interesting that like he put, he did it right when all the attention was going to be on the price. So if nothing else, I think he's just trying to flash his conviction and I don't, I don't begrudge him that at all. But funny enough, speaking of things, I've been searching so always pulling for clips and things for the Thursday show and trying to pay attention to what's going on. I think what we're seeing in bitcoin isn't reflective of bitcoin at all. I took a brief look at the market earlier today and it wasn't like read across the board but it didn't look good. Right. There are a few up on the day was kind of neutral to down across the US markets and then I still got to tease apart exactly what's going on. But the Japanese bond market looks like shit. And it's like okay, what's going on there? So I, I again, if I was going to try and read macro tea leaves by like the small amount of information I've absorbed from interviewing people much smarter than me is I think very possible. Bitcoin's just smelling something that's coming. We're just seeing a little bit of cracks in the monetary system that this isn't. The reason it feels so weird is because it has nothing to do with bitcoin. It's just people getting liquidity and getting to safety.

A (7:25)

I feel like Japan always gets blamed. It's always like, you know, yo curve control, like Japan is always getting the short end of the stick on this. Maybe it's their very harshly declining birth rates, I don't know. But yeah, I mean, so I think that that's an important thing to point out. Right. Is that bitcoin, as it becomes more embraced by Wall street, by the traditional finance system, it is necessarily going to be more susceptible to liquidity cycles. Right. And I think there's a lot of people that I think have made a very compelling argument that the four year cycle never meaningfully existed. And that really it was just all driven by macro liquidity cycles. And then there's the other side of things which says, well, obviously the four year cycles matter because the having matters. Because the supply getting cut in half, exponentially decreasing every four years, how could that not make a difference, right? And honestly the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, of course a bunch of money, whether a bunch of money gets injected into the global economy out of thin air, of course that's going to matter, right? Of course more of that's going to flow into the only truly finite asset that there is. That being said, it's like I'm not totally convinced that the four year cycles have never mattered. I just like, from the sense that I do think the having matters more than as just a mark quote marketing event, which I've seen thrown around. It's like, oh, the having is just like, it just brings attention to Bitcoin, but it doesn't actually materially impact anything. And it's like, it's also hard to know because bitcoin is still so young that it's like so much of this is just speculation. Everybody wants to attribute a different law to this, a different theory to this, a different plan to this, but at the end of the day it's like maybe we just actually have no fucking clue what's going on because we've never had anything like bitcoin before. And all your models are fucking broken and you trying to read the tea leaves and kind of like retrospectively look in the rear view mirror and attribute different things to, to Bitcoin's price movements. It's like, I don't know, maybe that's good for engagement, but it's not actually that meaningful. And maybe 50 years from now people will be like, everyone was retarded. Like, I can't believe they thought that these things actually mattered to Bitcoin. Like this was just, you know, you know, you look at the Weimar Republic chart, I was just going to say, you know what I mean? Like, you look at that, like it's like gold looks insanely volatile. It's dropping off, it's going up a, you know, climbing up the mountain, dropping off a cliff, back and forth. That's what bitcoin looks like right now. Because fiat currency is a dog measuring stick. And so it's like, maybe we just, we want to attribute these things to, you know, to, to what, whatever makes sense for our particular worldview. But in reality it's just fiat is being debased at an incredible rate even when they're you know, tightening. Like it's not like it's what. It's a blip, right? It's a little blip. But I don't know, I go back and forth in this. I think we are like, hindsight will be, wow, nobody really had a fucking clue what was going on. Bitcoin was just repricing the entire world. I talked to Jeff Booth today also. So I'm already in the mindset of like, why are you measuring a system, a new system from a system that can't possibly measure that system? And every time I talk to Jeff Booth, I'm just like, yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right, man.

B (10:45)

Straight into my veins.

A (10:46)

Yes, yes.

B (10:48)

No, you're completely right. And the thing that he throws out too, because I was actually, it's funny, I was going to reference Jet Booth today. I also had a. I had a wonderful recording today with Dr. Cruz. I feel very savage and ready to go because that man is definitely getting after it, which is nice. I love that cultural energy. Want to have it back? Well, most of the people in the. Most of the people that have Bitcoin are not bitcoiners. I think that's pretty clear, right? Especially with ETFs and other shit built on top. Which means that most people are pricing it from the old system, which means they're going to have an completely. They're going to be susceptible to all the problems associated with it and have a skewed view. So we can't. It's like the whole like market efficiency hypothesis. It's complete bullshit. Markets are not efficient. They're never efficient. There's always going to be asymmetries and changes and I mean, trying to figure out whether or not the four year cycle had an impact. I think I can say definitively it did. But the question is to what degree? Because all I had to do is have more than 0.001% of an impact that it had. So it definitely had an influence. It's just the question is how much, how often, what else was kind of in play. It's like when people try to figure out, like they try to determine someone's motive. It's like you can keep reaching back kind of recursively. Well, this thing happened in their childhood and this thing happened later in life. It's really hard to pin down definitively what led to something. Hell, we can't even call the weather like two months out, right? We have no clue.

A (12:00)

We can't even call the weather like Two minutes out, honestly. Well, depending on where you live. We're bad at predicting things. We're long timescales.

B (12:09)

Yes, we feel the need to. Because we feel this need to control. Right. Like we. It gives us reassurance in the same way that having like bitcoin savings makes you feel safe about the future, having some understanding or expectation gives you comfort. So we're always going. We're pattern recognition machines, right? We're always going to try and look for it. And yes, they have some value. And it's of course like bitcoin up into the rights. Directionally. Correct. But what's going to happen along the way? Like, there's no way that the monetary system doesn't implode and bitcoin rips down with it because most people still don't understand it. So they'll just say it's another asset, they'll sell it. The ones who do get it will be the big winners that come out on top. And really, that is like. It's the key thing we were talking about last time that we got to make sure that we drill home. I was thinking back because we're talking about the having as well too. The last having. I. This is why I'm probably. This is why I'm very calm and collected and in my space right now. I am not at the hodl stage. I'm at the accumulation stage. I'm hodling the whole way up. Right. I'm spending locally and circular economy and things too. But I'm in the accumulation phase. And I actually had like a bit of a moment at panic at the last having because I thought, like, this is gonna run away from me. This is absolutely gonna run or run away from me that my stack will maybe be measured in bitcoin, like 10% bigger by the time I'm done. But my earning potential wasn't go. I was like, so afraid that my. My excessively say that disposable income would not nearly keep up with the pace of bitcoin. Guys, we got more time. The whole year's been reset. Take a breath. Relax is your chance to accumulate more. It's the best thing that could have happened to you if you're one of these psychopaths listening to us right now, because that means that you get it. So it hurts in the short term, but my God, are you going to be relieved that you had more time to stack while you could, while everybody else was still figuring it out.

A (13:50)

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It was like it was actually in some ways, out of some ways worse, some ways not quite as bad because I didn't understand as much at that point, but I understood enough to be like. Like, you know, and the constant feeling of you missed the boat. The constant, constant feeling of you missed the boat. And, and just being like, I. I've just gotta. I've gotta do whatever I fucking can right this time around, it's like I understand even more. And so. And I've also been, you know, DCA for. For longer stacking for longer smash buying when I can. So I was just saying before this, you know, saw a limit order hit at 89, 999, and I was like, wow, sick. But then I was also like, oh, damn. Oh, wow. We went into the 80s, okay, fine. But like my limit order hit amazing. Like, that's fantastic. I don't know. It's interesting. I'm not. You know, American Hodl. Hodl talks about this idea of like, the bitlife crisis where, like, you get to that certain point where it's just like, any work that you're doing is almost meaningless because your, Your net worth is like fluctuating so much in any given day that like, you know, your bitcoin stack is so massive. Like, I'm not, I'm not. I'm not there yet. You know, I'm not obviously not even close to American. American Hodl. Because that man stacked like a fucking psychopath while I was still, I don't know, picking my nose and doing stupid stuff like, as an adult, you know, to clarify, I wasn't a child, you know, but just was being worthless. And he busy riding a moped. Yeah. Selling his chairs and stacking like a psychopath. And that pays off. And, and that's. I think the important thing is that the longer you go in this, the more you realize you haven't missed the boat. You will never catch those OGs just because it's. It's not going to happen. But that shouldn't be your benchmark. Right? The one thing about getting into bitcoin that I realized is that it is really easy to start hanging out with bitcoiners, you know, at conferences and whatever, and be like, holy shit, I am. I'm like, I'm so poor. Because these people, like, these people have more bitcoin than I like. It doesn't matter if I. I need to start a company that is going to be a fucking unicorn for me. To catch these guys, right?

B (19:29)

And sell it.

A (19:30)

But that's. Yeah, and sell it and then do it a couple more times. But that like that's okay. Like then you realize like, oh, but it doesn't matter because literally all of this is relative. What matters is how well are you doing at saving for your future, your family's future, if you, if you have a family, if you don't have a family yet, hopefully if you're a bitcoin or you're trying to build one, Bitcoin's giving you the hope to do so and the ability to do so. But you, you can't have that mentality of like I'm too late, I missed the boat, I'll never catch these guys. Because that's just self defeating. Right? You have to have the mentality of what can I do to get myself and my family as well positioned for the future as possible? And the answer is just create value. Stack as hard as you fucking can and, and live your life right. And like these, these short term, because this is what this is. Sure. Is this like a little. Probably unexpected depending on who you talk to. Like if you just follow a lot of caps lock moon boys, this is probably very unexpected. If you don't spend as much time following those people. You've just been living your life. Maybe you just happen to check the price chart and you realize, wow, SATs are on sale today. Right? This is a good time for my DCA is going to get me a few more SATs than it did yesterday. That's great. I don't know, it's an interesting point in adoption where you have on a day where bitcoin is crashing down to 89,900, whatever it got to 512, 469. Okay, okay. Should have set that limit. Order a little bit lower. You also have an American publicly traded company strategy announcing they bought 8,100 something bitcoin making their total almost 650,000 bitcoin, which is just a mind boggling number. And also at the same time you've got a small little nation state that just pulled itself up out of the grips of gang violence, has completely changed its story, changed its future for its people and just stacked over 1000 bitcoin today. El Salvador, at the same time when sentiment is seemingly so bad, at the same time when just like a week ago, 4 million plus merchants just got the ability to be onboarded to bitcoin by pressing a little on screen toggle. There's so many things that are happening Right now that make me so insanely bullish. And honestly, I just refuse to succumb to the bearish fear mongering. I tweeted this the other day. But when I get the most bullish is when all the gold bugs and all the fiat economists and all the fucking retards who love to dunk on bitcoin come out in full force and they're like really dunking hard, like, told you bitcoin was. You know, they've been saying bitcoin's gonna go to zero since it was a thousand dollars. But like, now that it's down, you know, crash jump down to 90,000, they're really coming out strong like the, the Peter Schiff, you know, followers. And it's like that makes me, that makes me bullish. Like when they are so bearish, so gleeful, so happy, it's. I'm like, okay, that's a, that's a good signal. That's a really good signal. That now is going to be a fantastic, in retrospect, a fantastic time to buy. Okay, mini rant finished.

B (22:49)

No, it's absolutely beautiful. It's funny that you touched on signal because that's exactly it. If you're feeling. There's kind of a few things. If you're feeling really down in the dumps, it's like there's probably an element of like, you, you're not where you want to be yet. It's as like with you and I, we have the family and things as well too. So we're not relying on our bitcoin stack to help us levitate to that position. We're already building that as well and that makes it a little bit easier. And I can, I can fully admit that, like, even if I didn't have my bitcoin, my life is still good. My friends are good, my family's good. So I've got a foundation that's pretty strong there. But you're right in that it's. If you're seeing a whole bunch of people dunking on it and really making you nervous, it's probably a whole bunch of bad signal as well too, that you're not putting your time and effort into things. They're helping you understand this better, helping you grow as a person, helping you improve, helping you stack more. And even going Back to the OG's comment, it's funny because if you're always comparing yourself to other people, right, it's always just going to make life miserable. There's always somebody, there's always somebody better looking than you faster than you, richer than you. It's always going to be the case. You got to compare yourself to yesterday and what your stack was yesterday. It's funny because there's really no benefit to looking over your shoulder either. You ever see those like game shows where you have to get like 30 seconds on the clock to like get a task done? The people that usually end up doing well never look at the clock. There's no point in looking at the clock, right? That's only going to slow you down. It's only going to distract you. The same thing here, right? It's funny because, and I truly mean this, if you're again, you're here, you're listening to us, you're hanging out and you're stacking Bitcoin, you will be one of those OGs, right? It's all absolutely relative. We all kind of. You would have done on chain transactions in the early days and it was just finding its way to Wall Street. Like you can look at somebody even like, not as like great examples of people like you look at like Bill Gates or like Steve Jobs, for example. We can think of them as like OGs and computers, but it's not. They probably looked at like Alan turning right, like he didn't have to be there at the invention to be considered an OG in the space. There's still tons of work to be done, a huge long line ahead of us. You don't have to be the first one. You need to be there in the first two decades in order to get that consideration. If you're here, if you've done on chain transactions, if you're self custody, most people will never. Self custody. Not, not. Sorry. Not on chain at least. We might be on the higher protocols, right? But if you're stacking sats, well, everyone's freaking out because you know what you have and you know where you're going and you're actually using bitcoin and you're holding it, you're holding your key yourself, you will be an og. Let's look around at all your friends groups. You're probably the only one. You're probably the only one. If you have a bitcoin or friend, you're extremely lucky. But if you're the only person in.

A (25:11)

Your group, if you didn't meet them through bitcoin, like if you just had a bitcoiner friend already.

B (25:16)

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Most people don't have a bitcoiner friend. Maybe one that comes along for the journey if they're lucky, but that's it. And so if you're the only one in your group who's figured this out, who's stacking stats right now, you are going to be an og, even if you don't consider yourself one right now. And people will look back at you the same way we look back at Hodl on his little mobile moped, driving through Vegas stacking sats and go, fuck, I wish I would have done that. People are gonna look at you and go, shit, 89, 648. I wish I would have done that.

A (25:45)

It's actually so true because again, each cycle, if cycles exist, okay, this is bad, but I'm just gonna keep laboring under the delusion that cycles exist. Each cycle you have these opportunities. And James Cech has a lot of. I love his approach to things because he also breaks down something that's really important and why he talks about, you should just be dcaing for the vast majority of people. Because even he has said this, looking at all the indicators he looks at doing all of that, even he can't time things perfectly. And so he will just dca. And maybe he smashed buys when it's hit certain levels, he has some limb rotors set, but mostly he's just dcaing. But the reason you do that is because if you are not in the market, if you're not in the market, exposed in some way during like 10 days of the year, maybe 10 days of the year, that's when bitcoin does all of its moving. That's when bitcoin rips your face off. And if you're not there, you miss out on that. Like, if you're trying to time it, if you're waiting, oh, I'll just, I'll wait for it to go lower again. Like, well, that time that you decide to wait for it to go lower is when it doesn't go lower again, right? The time that you decide to, like, I'm going to sell my few sats and I'm going to buy back lower. That's when it, that's when it rips your face off. Like, that's when you buy back higher. That's when you buy back at twice the price. Like, man, these, these moments are, are seem very fleeting because they, they kind of are. It's like we also, we spend so much time either going sideways or going down that it's like it, it, it's just long enough for you to forget what happens when bitcoin really moves up. Like when bitcoin really moves and you know, again, Bitcoin doesn't care. Right. It's not trying to lull you into a false sense of security. That's just how. That's just how it happens to work. Right. But boy, it sure does. It sure does. And it's really easy to get complacent. It's really easy to think, that's fine. You know, I'll just. It's going to be down here forever. Like, maybe it's going to go to lower. Maybe it's going to go to 58k and I don't know, maybe it will. You have no idea.

B (27:44)

I can see a wick two seconds. Right?

A (27:46)

Like, I mean, honestly, that'd be sweet. I should probably set some limit. Orders at 58K.

B (27:49)

Yep.

A (27:50)

Like, that would be amazing. It's a magnet. Whatever. But man, again, you should probably just be dcaing and doing whatever you can to try and create more value. And whether that be generating more fiat to stack more bitcoin or finding ways to get paid in bitcoin for doing things. And there are all sorts of ways to do that now, which is amazing. You should be doing that. Like, you should, you should be trying your utmost to do that. Because again, like, I mean, at least I think for, for both of us, it's like we're. We're no longer stacking for ourselves. It's like we're stacking for our families. We're stacking for the next generation. And like, if we do things right, the generation after that and after that and not. Not so that we, you know, they put up a monument to us and a statue. No, just so that we do the best that we can. Because we have, like, we are. We were born before bitcoin existed.

B (28:47)

Yep.

A (28:48)

And now bitcoin exists and we're watching it re reprice the world. Shame on us if we do not act on that. Like, shame on us. But luckily we are and we're bitcoin podcasting about it, so we're doubly acting on it. So, you know, cheers. Of course.

B (29:06)

Cheers. Salute to that. Quick one. You know, it's funny, I have a good friend who's definitely not my co host, Gary, during the. The bear market there. When is that? 16. He was sitting there going, it's going to 12. It's going to 12. I'm going to hold off on that. I'm not going to buy it. It's going to 12, guys. I never went to 12. Definitely not. My co host, Gary, never got his Bitcoin at 16K. There's. There's no point in timing the market. It won't matter in the long run. And you're right, you're not smart enough to get it. And the other thing too, but you are smart enough to get Bitcoin. This is the key thing. Bitcoin, Bitcoin itself. And I was like, bitcoin self custody is not that hard in understanding. Bitcoin is actually all not that difficult either. It's complex, there's a lot of moving parts, but each one individually is not actually all that difficult. It's kind of like a car engine, right? You know, taking gas, ignite. It's not too, too bad. However, understanding Bitcoin is the reason that we're seeing the price reflected right now is basically a reflection that nobody understands what they hold. They don't. If they did, they wouldn't do it. And so putting in the time and effort into understanding that and getting the conviction really makes a difference. And if you do get it like that's not easy. It requires going against what, how many years of central school education? Going against the entire peer group. Your family, business, marketing, TV presidents, politicians, you take your pick, right? Everybody out there is working their ass off for Fiat and driving themselves insane. You're the first one to go like I don't want that. I want this thing. Of course you're gonna look crazy and of course most people won't do it. So like again, cheers to you if you're here. But you're gonna see this is not the worst. There's gonna be worse, I can almost guarantee it. That like, it's not like, okay, we're having a Correction down to 58k and then it smooth sailing from here. Get used to it. Shit's gonna hit the fan at some point in time. If we actually have a major. Sorry. When we actually have a major fiat currency collapse, it's gonna be reflected in panic. It's gonna be reflected in the price. If MicroStrategy ever gets sold off for parts or assumed control by the US government, that might be reflected in the price we've got. The like the quantum fud I think is not really a big deal. I think we have a lot of time to prepare for it. But you know, people often talk about, well what do you do about like the older coins, like Satoshi's coins and these things. My stance is, is, is very firm and very simple. I kind of take it's just from a private property rights, just kind of extrapolating Austrian economics is that I look at it kind of like Sunken gold on the bottom of the ocean. Like, if you had a ship that sunk and someone actually dove down and got it, well, they got it. They didn't inflate the supply. It wasn't a violation of the property rights. So there's a good chance that, like satoshi's coins get unlocked and sold at some point in time. The market's gonna really puke when that happens. But don't worry about it. Just get some of those. Say that you actually bought some of Satoshi stack. That's phenomenal. This is not the worst that's going to happen. You'll have other buying opportunities. Be happy when they come along. The I was right moments in bitcoin are only so sweet because they're rare.

A (31:51)

That is well said, by the way. I share the same opinion as you regarding how to handle potential Quantum threats, which is like, we. As soon as you set the precedent that you're going to make decisions about someone else's property because these coins are lost, like, because then what other. What other, like, lost coins do you make that decision for?

B (32:12)

100%.

A (32:13)

And as soon as you do that, make. The precedent you set in my mind is just untenable like that, you know, and that may very well result in a fork or something. Like, Right. You know, that probably will, like, almost certainly, like, and in which case it's going to, like, I'm going to hold on to the bitcoin that may have been, you know, some of the coins may have been hacked by Quantum, but still preserves private property rights because no unilateral decisions were made versus the other side of that. But, hey, we've got some time before that happens. I know everybody likes to doom that, you know, quantum is happening, like, right now, man. Like, right now it's probably way out. But yeah, I think it's way farther out than people want to, which is. Which is a good thing, right? You've got time. Like, right now, all you have to worry about is how are you going to stack more corn. Because while everyone else is freaking out, like, you have an opportunity. And again, we talked about this last time. It's like, if you are here right now and you were listening to this and you're aware of this and, you know, especially if you already own some sats, fantastic. You can get some more cheaper than you could get them yesterday and the day before and the week before. You don't own any bitcoin. Like, wow, you've been gifted a great opportunity. You didn't have to buy sats at 126k per Bitcoin. You can buy them at, you know, 90k. Like, that's. That's fantastic. Like, that's a. That's a great deal right there, in my opinion.

B (33:34)

Go back to the COVID crash, right, too. How many people look at the COVID crash when bitcoin went down to $3,000. And guys, that was not very long ago. That wasn't that long ago. And everyone goes, oh, man, I wish I could have bought them. Well, most people didn't. They were scared shitless of everything that's going on in the world. And those moments will come again. And this is like a mini version of that right here as well, too. It's the exact time when you should be stacking. If you looked. If you looked at the run from like 3, then back up to 20 and then off to the races, and you want to be a part of it, same thing's gonna happen here. Bitcoin's not done. We haven't peaked. It's not over. The game's still just getting going. So take advantage of it while you can, and then you'll get to have those I told you so moments.

A (34:17)

That I think is actually the fundamental point is that, okay, you can have basically two. You can have one thesis or another when it comes to bitcoin. You either think that bitcoin is worthless and it's going to zero or negative zero, as Peter Zehan or Zhan, whatever, God, that fucking moron. Or you can think bitcoin's not going to zero. And if it's not going to zero, it's going as far away from zero as it can possibly get. It is going to keep going up and up and up to the right with volatility. It is going to reprice the entire world. They will never stop printing Fiat. We only have 21 million Bitcoin. As of like today or yesterday, 95% of the total supply is out there, 5% more until the year 2140. Okay? They will never make any more bitcoin. They will always make more Fiat. If you do not think bitcoin is going to zero, you necessarily must believe that bitcoin will just keep going up into the right forever. Now, when it hits certain milestones that we've decided to put on it with certain round numbers usually attributed to US dollars. But like, you know, if you've been measuring it in Turkish lira, like you've got a completely different set of, you know, if you live. You're living in Istanbul, you get a Completely set of different set of measurements than, than folks in the US if you're measuring in Canadian moose shekels, you've got a completely different set of measurements and on and on. The point being, if you do not think bitcoin is going to go to zero, if you have the conviction and you're already here and you're listening to this and you believe that bitcoin is going to reprice the entire world, it's going to demonetize gold, it's going to demonetize real estate. We're already seeing this. We're already seeing this happen. So it's not even like you have to imagine it. You're seeing it happen in real time. If you believe that will continue, then there's not even any question about what you do. There's not even any question about should I, am I bearish or not or bullish. It's like if you can think on longer than four year time scales, you're okay because it is only going one way. And yes, it will go that way with volatility. Yes. And that volatility will be sometimes gut wrenching and sickening and you'll be like, oh God, you know, you know, should have done XYZ different, should have timed this. But you know what? Like, you're not perfect. I'm not perfect. None of us are perfect. None of us are. No one is perfect at timing the market right. And if you zoom out like, and you just keep focusing on not trying to time the market but instead just trying to create value, trying to bring in more value and then trying to use that value that you've created to acquire more Bitcoin, hopefully directly, you know, without even needing to involve fiat in it, that's the best. You're going to be okay. You're going to be okay because if you can just wait a few years, if you can wait, like bitcoin's going to be higher and then again that's if you're just measuring it in this broken fiat system. Like that's the thing. We're at a difficult time because our brains are structured in such a way that fiat is all we know. We were born into fiat. We're creatures of fiat. Right? Fiat is the water that we swim in. Bitcoin is something completely alien to us. And now we're watching it completely reprice the world in front of our eyes, which looks really wild happening in real time. But like, when you look back, when you, when you go to the year 2140 and you look back on this remonetization period, this repricing period, it's going to look just so obvious. It's going to look like, well, of course you should have bought at any point in 2025 or 2026. You should have just bought at any point in time, this entire time, and you would have, quote, made money. But then there's the whole question, and this is where Jeff Booth would be like, but you're still thinking about it wrong because you're still thinking about trying to make money off it. And bitcoin is the money. What you're thinking about is trying to make fiat credit off of it, which is nothing. And so again, shout out to Jeff Booth for always keeping. Keeping me and everybody else grounded in that realization that you are holding the best money and the purest form of money that has ever existed. Again, shame on us if we don't wise the up to that fact and do everything we can to acquire more of it and then also to go and spend it and you can just replace it immediately, and then it's not a taxable event and it's okay. And also, fuck the irs. There's that, too. Yeah, I lost all my bitcoin in a boating accident. Didn't even have any to begin with. I'm a larp. But if the IRS is listening. But also, I fucking. I was just thinking, I was just prepaying some taxes today, and boy, that's just What a kick in the. What a kick in the dick. That is just absolutely horrible. Just a. Just a kick in the penis. That's what that is right there. I don't know. I digress. But we're at a beautiful time where we are aware that bitcoin exists in its infancy. You are not late. You are still early. This will reprice the entire world. Everything will get cheaper if you save in bitcoin, everything forever. All you have to do is just keep stacking. It's that easy. But people don't want the. People don't want to believe a solution can be that easy, I think. But that's just like our fiat brains again. You know what I mean?

B (39:23)

No, it's like the. It's like you can logically do something about emo, not emotionally grab, like, not emotionally grip it yet. Like, you can say like, I believe it's gonna happen, or logically understand you're coming, but you don't have that emotional conviction behind it. And it's really hard to get that point too. But do you make your saying. It's like you Basically like two graphs kind of going on at the same time. You have the price of everything that you possibly want in life and the current price of Bitcoin or your current stack of Bitcoin. And over time, the price of everything that you want is coming down in bitcoin terms. And your stack can stay the same. It can go down or you can go up. And if you keep that stat going up, the time it takes before those two lines intersect and everything you want in life comes to fruition and gets a little bit quicker. And time really is the most scarce thing you have. So you're saving yourself time and getting the things that are most important to you in life. By stacking Bitcoin and just holding it and getting as much as you can, you're just. You're closing that gap even faster. And it's not a. You know, you're right. Bitcoin is either going to zero or it's just taking over everything. There's nothing in between because it's a money. It has no other use case, which is like, that's a feature, not a bug, by far. Right? Its only value is a monetary value. If it's not money, then it has no value. Right? Even though all values objective, yada, yada, yada.

A (40:27)

The.

B (40:28)

It always. It reminds me of, like, when people say, like, you have a 50% chance of divorce. It's like, fuck you. No, I don't. It's not a coin flip. I actually impact that outcome. I can make changes. I can improve things. Here's what we did beforehand. You can skew those odds in your favor. It's the same thing with bitcoin. Okay? Bitcoin's going to zero or it's going to take over everything. Well, you can actually. You can tip the scales in your favor. You can stack it. That actually helps. You can spend it. Like Walker was saying, that helps as well, too. You can contribute by teaching other people, telling people about it. You can use it as a medium, exchange at your store. You can contribute code, you can contribute marketing. You can contribute means you can start a bitcoin podcast. We talked about that last time. We'll talk about it every time. It's not something that's just going to happen. Bitcoin is just a protocol for value communication. We're the ones behind it. We're the ones using the tool. And so if you're here and you want Bitcoin to reprice everything, well, then you can contribute. The smallest thing you can do is just hold it and use it but there's a lot more that you can do too. You can impact that scale, right? You can tip the odds in your favor by participating in the bitcoin network in whatever way possible. And that might just be as simply as like trying to have another conversation with your stubborn brother in law. I don't know. But we are the marketing team, we are the advocates. We're the ones that use it, we're the ones that improve it. We're the ones that vote on the protocol. Whether you vote on the protocol or not. We're the ones that can make new apps, new things. I saw fucking. You're talking about El Salvador. Pablo was just down at, what is it? My first bitcoin from Bull Bitcoin down at in El Salvador. They're doing education all over the world. Bull Bitcoin just released a new recovery protocol that I saw them sending out an email about today. Like there are people building in the space and they're not just. They're doing it for your benefit. To their benefit as well too. When I help bitcoin, when I work on bitcoin, when I teach people bitcoin, that helps me and just a magnitude of ways too. Plus it's one of the few things in this world that I can actually walk away and say, I had an impact. Like my family, number one, totally do. Kids love me. I'm a great dad, the best dad, best you've ever seen. Many people are saying, many people are saying and that, and that I know has meaning in this world, but my last fiat job, I can walk away from that. There's like zero impact on the world. But I've had the opportunity to actually educate and train people on bitcoin and show them and teach them about bitcoin. And I know that will have a lasting impact. So you can not only tip the scales in your favor, you can have a lasting impact in a legacy. You can get everything that you want in life and all you have to do is fucking believe me when I tell you we're going to win. This is just a blip. Have the conviction, suck it up. We all go through it together. That's why we're here.

A (42:55)

I say, I say amen to that.

B (42:57)

Amen.

A (42:57)

I say amen to that. I think that it's natural that when it comes to money, like there's a deep, like there's a deep, just like gut feeling that happens with all of this, right? There's a reason that this, when bitcoin is crashing, is dipping, there's a reason it's like, especially when you are, like, as all into bitcoin as you can be, right? Yeah, like that, that, of course, because you're watching it, you're watching it fluctuate, but making that mentality shift to saying, yeah, this, like, damn. Like, sure, it's. It's more fun when bitcoin's going up, right? Like, sure. Like, you know, the dopamine hits and you're like, yes. Like, you know, suck it. You know, suck at Peter Schiff. Suck it. You fiat economists, suck it. You know, random friend who still thinks bitcoin's a scam and decided to buy xrp and it's just a big old, you know, like many such cases. But I feel like that when bitcoin is crashing, when bitcoin is dipping, that's where, like, the real, the real culture starts to come out, right? That's when the memes get better. That's when bitcoiners decide, you know, what we're going to like, like, fuck all of these gold bugs. And, you know, fiat, highly regarded fiat economists trying to dunk on bitcoin, like, let's just. Let's just eviscerate them, right? Because we know we're going to be, like, proven right in a little while and they'll delete their tweets. But it's like when bitcoin is just, like, chopping sideways, that's. That's when bitcoiners are fighting against each other. And again, I'm still relatively new to this. I'm just calling out the patterns as I see them. But when bitcoin's chopping away sideways, that's when you see people, bitcoiners, just at each other's throats, right? When bitcoin's crashing, it's like, that's when we're, you know, that phalanx is formed up tight and we are ready to just absolutely level any, any, any critics who would come at bitcoin. When bitcoin's ripping, it's just like, hey, now it's a party. Like, okay, who cares? Suck it. You were all wrong. But I think that's why, like, bitcoin, like, bitcoin dipping, like, that's where. That's where the real shit happens. And again, because that's where the greatest opportunities are. Like, it. You. You made a great point earlier, looking back at that Covid crash, like, when it, you know, wicked down to, I think, what, 35.

B (45:18)

Yeah, some of that. 3,000 something. Yeah.

A (45:20)

Which is wild. Like, if I, If I could Go back and, and stack more sats at that point.

B (45:25)

Boy, I'm 30x from there right now. It's a 30x from that Covid crash.

A (45:31)

Yeah, yeah. And so that like, boy, we would all like to go back to that. And you know what? That was. Okay, so that was a little over five years ago. Like, a little over five years from now, how do you think you'll be feeling about this moment? This moment right now, here on November 17, 2025. Are you going to be looking at this and saying, oh, thank, thank, thank gosh, I didn't buy more bitcoin there because, boy, it just kept. No, you're gonna be like, shit, shit. Maybe it went a little bit lower. Maybe it goes a little bit lower in the coming days, weeks, months. I don't know, man. I don't have a fucking crystal ball. But I can pretty much guarantee that five years from now, we take the same amount of time that it's been since that Covid crash. Down you go, five years from now, we're sitting at 20, 30. You are not going to be looking back at today right now and saying, boy, I'm sure glad I didn't buy, you know, stack more sats. There's just, there's no, no conceivable world in which that happened. I mean, I guess there's a, there's a multiverse out there. You know, there's a different form of reality where that happens.

B (46:34)

Maybe there's one universe where Schiff is right.

A (46:39)

Oh, what a messed up, what a messed up universe that would be too. I, I, I'm so glad we don't live in that one. I'm so glad we live in the universe where Peter Schiff has been wrong for over a decade about bitcoin and still somehow thinks he's the, you know, he's the genius out there. I mean, truly, the levels of hubris on that man are shocking. I'd love to have a beer with Peter Schiff, though. I'll say I would love to have a beer with him. I would love to find out like, just, just me and him, we get maybe we get like 21 beers deep.

B (47:06)

Yep.

A (47:06)

And I just want to find out if he's actually, if he's just full of shit or, and like this is all just a big game to him, a big act like he's been stacking bitcoin or if he truly believes this. Like, I'm genuinely curious. So, Peter, if you're out there, I'll fly down to Puerto rico. We can 2021 beers each on me. After 21, we don't say a word until we drink that 21st beer. After that 21st beer, we start talking. We just see what happens. Maybe we podcast about it. It's a silent podcast for the first approximately three hours it takes us to drink those 21 beers, seven beers an hour for three hours. Then. Then the podcast starts having audio.

B (47:43)

Until then, it's just Jamie in the background with a little counter, like 1, 2, 3 on screen.

A (47:48)

Honestly, I'd be super down for this. It sounds like a good time to me. But yeah, again, I digress. But it's you. You have, you have a great chance right now. Like when, when everyone, all the mid curve mainstream normie talking heads are telling you you're wrong, it's usually a pretty good indication that, wow, it's a, it's a nice time to stack a few extra sats if you can. The biggest problem is just having the dry powder. It's like, where are you guys all getting this dry powder from? Fuck, guys.

B (48:20)

Like, what the hell is happening here?

A (48:21)

Damn it.

B (48:22)

Take the flip side of the coin too, right? Like, how I would actually be relatively apprehensive if everybody was talking about it, right? Like, of all my friends and family and colleagues and cab drivers, I would be a little bit concerned that either one, because especially right now, let's just say it happened like 2025 or 2026. It's kind of one of two things. We're at a top things are frothy and it's about to come down hard and fast, or bitcoin adoption accelerated at a speed that's probably going to make us enemy number one for some people. And either way I'm a little bit apprehensive. Like if we're actually at the point, like if this was actually like end of 2025 and Bitcoin is just like ripping to a million dollars and everyone's talking about. And how. Everyone's talking about how bitcoin is so great and how the US dollar fucking sucks. You know, everything else that threatened the US dollar, every single other country that threatened the US dollar, they didn't fare very well there, Walker. It kind of got a little bit hard for Gaddafi and a few others along the way. So yes, we're going to get there. Yes, it's going to happen. I don't necessarily want it to happen too fast because, one, I don't want to be public enemy number one. I would prefer not to. And I think it'd be absolutely chaotic. So it's right. You got two sides of the coin there. Right. Is the fact that everyone's dunking on us just tells us, okay, we're probably approaching a bottom. If not now, maybe the next like three months or so. We're probably going to find a bottom here pretty quick because I think I saw like sentiment at like 10 on the fear and greed index, which I think is just relatively bullshit. But just tell by the Twitter. The Twitter feels as well too. It's definitely there and it makes sense. Right. The other thing we didn't even touch on too, because I don't need. I'm sure someone's got the data because it's all publicly traded companies and stuff. But like I have no idea how like the ETF holders and stuff are feeling right now in the sense that because they only came in when the ETF launch was. Was that the beginning of 2025, 2024? I'm losing time now. Have they been around?

A (50:07)

No, it's beginning of 2024. Right.

B (50:10)

Okay. It's been, I don't know, it's been two years or one year. I'm not sure now. It may have only been like this year for fall. I know.

A (50:17)

No, wait, what? Hold on.

B (50:20)

Double check it while you pull that up. We're gonna.

A (50:22)

No, no, no, no, no. 2024. January 11th, 2024.

B (50:25)

Okay.

A (50:26)

Feels like it was just this year though. I have that same feeling, you know. I know what you mean.

B (50:29)

Time warp there. But for them, their cost basis is, is always going to be like higher. They're gonna, they're not gonna be carrying, comparing it to the Bitcoin price. They're gonna be comparing it to the ETF price. Right?

A (50:38)

Yeah.

B (50:39)

So their sentiment might be even worse. I haven't checked like BlackRock outflows because again, I'm not like a trader or anything. But I imagine that they. If you're buying in the, if you're retail and you're buying in the etf, I question how much you understand what you're buying. Do you know what I mean? It's like you could be stacking both. Right. There could be a tax advantage reason or something too. But it's like, ah, I, I help a lot of people go the other direction where they've done very well in MicroStrategy or ETFs. And they're like, I have a whole bunch of GLD, but I don't have any American Eagles in my safe. It's like, let's get that sorted out there for you. Let's help you out. And so I imagine they're gonna be quick. Like in the ETFs as a whole are not going to be like as fast as retail on the exchanges. But again, I don't think they're necessarily going to have the conviction because I think for them it's just a. It's just another investment in their portfolio. Right. I don't expect them to understand it. I also, I mean, you know, a debate with my wonderful co host Gary, who definitely didn't sell or definitely buy at the 16 mark there because he thought it was going to 12. But I deal with them often because he will reaffirm. He's right. Like bitcoin is for anyone or for anyone, depending on everyone or anyone. Depending on how to phrase that up too. It's my own cognitive bias. I'm well aware of that. But I don't think you can separate the underlying ideology of like anarchism from bitcoin, of the separation of money and state. And if I look at those kind of beliefs, like Austrian economics, libertarian philosophy at large. Right. It's kind of a requirement that you at least somewhat, at least can grapple with those ideas. And you might disagree as well as then understand bitcoin to be a bitcoin. Right. It's kind of the merger of those two things combined with, you know, some toxic online culture. How many people do you know in real world that even like, look at Austrian economics or know what the fuck that is? Right, Right. So I can't expect them to even have the conviction to hold bitcoin because I'm like, look, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna completely neuter the state. There's gonna be no government. You're gonna love it. They'll look at you like you're fucking crazy.

A (52:33)

But who will build the roads?

B (52:35)

Oh my God, that question drives me with a goddamn wall. It's like, yes, thank you for texting me on your free market iPhone. Who will build the roads? I don't know. It's pavement on dirt. I think we'll figure it out. There possibly could be a better system as well too. It's. It's so infuriating. But to think of, like, how few people can grapple because it's the man. I read something other than. I'll see if I can pull it up in my brain in a second here. But most people can't grapple with the unseen. Like, that's a really difficult thing for them to get around. And it goes back to who will build the roads? You know, you want to defund public education? You want to want kids to get educated? No, you fucking moron. Just because the government did it for the last hundred years does not mean that's the ideal way to do it. It's not. And it's also, we can figure things out. There could be better solutions, and there could be things that you didn't even imagine that come along. Like, dude, in our lifetime, we got the fucking touch screens, right? I still remember, like, I fucking. I still remember, like, parents leave the house, dial up Internet. It's like, okay, I got three hours before they're back to try and get two photos, right? Like, I remember these days and how fast things have changed. And so if most people can't grapple with the idea of a stateless world, how could they possibly have conviction in a stateless money?

A (53:49)

Hey, man. Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah. No, it. It. It's true. Also, like, I remember, I don't know much like, my. I didn't get a cell phone until I was like, maybe 15 or 16.

B (54:00)

I was 16. I was driving. I had to drive.

A (54:03)

Me too. Motorola Razor.

B (54:05)

Oh, those are sweet.

A (54:06)

It was sick. Fun. I was like, yeah, this is sick. Like, this, this. This is the height of a technology right here, you know? But it's true. Like, things change so incredibly fast. The rate of change is accelerating, but, boy, most. Like, it takes a long time for most people, myself included. I'm not immune to this. To radically shift your worldview. I've said this before. I have to this day, still ignored bitcoin. I was aware of Bitcoin in 2014 and ignored it until 2020. That's six years. Over six years that I ignored it after first hearing about it, just. And heard it multiple times in between there too. Kept ignoring it. I only started stacking Bitcoin in 2020, so I've still, to this day ignored bitcoin longer than I have been stacking bitcoin after being aware of it. So I get it. Like, I get that it takes a long time to change your worldview, because it took me a long time to change your worldview. And when you're talking about something that is so fundamental, that is so radically just paradigm shifting and worldview altering and sends you down all of these tangential rabbit holes. It sends you down the Austrian economics rabbit hole. It sends you down just like the energy rabbit hole, it sends you down the health rabbit hole. Because you realize how much the perversion of money has perverted everything else, right? It really wakes you up to that. And so you start asking, well, if the money's a lie, what else is a lie? And it turns out a lot of it is. Like, most of it, probably. You start looking at the education system and the economic incentives there. And, man, once your eyes are open, that's the beautiful thing. Once your eyes are open, you can't go back. Once you're unplugged from the Matrix, you don't go back in, you know, not as just a drone in there anymore. Right? Like, you go back in and try to dismantle the Matrix, right? But once you are unplugged from it, you can't just turn that off now you're awake, Your eyes are open. You woke up. Neo. It takes a while to get there, though. It takes. Because life is busy and messy and you're being bombarded on all sides by more information than our brains were ever have even come close to being evolved to process. Like, we are not. We have. We have undergone a massive, massive, giga, exponential increase in the amount of information that our brains are bombarded with. And our brains haven't materially changed from a physiological level. Right. To be able to process this. Like, it's just. We just haven't. And so I. I get it. Like, and we as bitcoiners. And I'm guilty of not always having empathy and being like, okay, you know, like, yes, I. I will say that often, but. But I say it with love. Like, if I. If I call you a boomer, it's because. It's because I love you and want you to realize that you're being a boomer. But no real talk. I get it. I get why it takes people a long time. Like, it's. It's taken, like, many of my friends a long time, and then they, you know, started stacking. Like, for instance, like, after Trump started supporting bitcoin, they're like, oh, yeah, I just bought some bitcoin. Because Trump did. And I was like, fine. A little frustrating, but awesome. Like, I'm glad, because I love you as. I love you as a friend, that all I wanted was for you to also have this. This exposure, this thing that you don't even realize how powerful it is yet. But, like, like, you know, I love you, bro, and I want you to have this so good. I'll take any. Any win I can get. But, man, the. We're at a very, very tiny, like, fraction of a percent of the global population. Like a fraction of 1%.

B (58:03)

Yep.

A (58:04)

That know what's going on that are really aware of bitcoin or hold bitcoin in a meaningful way, that actually have a UTXO and don't. Like, even the people that have a utxo, the majority of them don't even know what a UTXO is anyway. Like even. You know what I mean? So it's like we're just so early. And this gets back to the point, because we are so early, there is just no way that in five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, 50 years, you look back and say, sure. Glad I didn't buy during that November 17, 2025 crash. Like, phew, dodged a bullet there. It's like, no, the bullet you dodged was generational wealth and retiring your bloodline like, you fucking palooka. Like, wise up.

B (58:44)

It's absolutely.

A (58:45)

Kaluka is not as bad of a word as it sounds, by the way.

B (58:47)

It sounds pretty good.

A (58:49)

It's, it's. It sounds, it sounds more offensive than it is. I just want to clarify. It's not. Anyone can fact check me on this. It's a totally appropriate word to use in this context.

B (58:57)

I have to go ahead after the stream. But, you know, it's funny because I think, I think, unfortunately. How do I phrase this? In some respects, adoption will be slower, particularly in the west, than we. We want it to be. And even that idea of becoming, from the. Being unplugged from the Matrix, you know, at the beginning of the movie, they talk about how, you know, some minds are too far gone, they're too old, they can't be unplugged. And I do think that really is the case for some people, particularly like the older generations. And unfortunately, like, I can, I can tell you just from like looking on the back end, the things that I will. That. That Gen Z's not coming in yet. And I don't think they will. I think they're kind of in a very. It's a very kind of YOLO lifestyle, like financial nihilism. And I don't blame them because do they have like millennials? We thought we had the deck stacked against us. They're fucked, right? Until we fix it and help them and let them take the reins afterwards. But it's this idea that until I think it's going to kind of be. It's going to require some funerals in order for like the bitcoin population to really increase wealth to be passed down to the younger generations, for them to be able to actually have wealth to then figure out what the hell to do with it, to try and get ahead. And on top of that, it's the, at some point in time and it kind of varies depending on the circumstances. Some people's minds just can't ever like there. It would, it would destroy their ego to actually change their mind and revert. And I'll take it, I'll take a dark but a very extreme example just to illustrate the point. If you were, let's say hypothetically, Walker, that your specialty was abortions, you were an abortion doctor, you're the best one in the world and you've been doing this your whole life.

A (60:21)

I'm not, I'm not just to clarify.

B (60:24)

That's not my fiat job just to clarify. But let's say that you had been doing that, right? And you thought you were doing good and you were following your peers and like the medical boards and everything going on and you had that whole worldview, but you woke up to the idea that that actually was taking a human life. Life, right. That actually was killing a baby. Well, that would, that would, that would destroy most people. Your, your brain would not let you actually switch opinions because it'd be so devastating based on what you did. And we can kind of take that same philosophy and apply to. If you're a boomer who made wealth by voting for these government programs, who supported them for years, who made money in the existing financial system, is really hard to look back and say not only that I was wrong, but I may have done wrong. And it's, it's not the same extreme, but I only just use that kind of like argument from mad, certain right, that like they really did steal from the other generations, they really did saddle us with debt, we really did get lied into wars and we got tricked again. And to be able to not only met that like you were incorrect, but you may have in some ways done something wrong or ill advised or in some direct or indirect way, maybe even to hurt people that you cared about. Right? I mean, you can take the example like if I sit down and I explain to you libertarian philosophy like I'm a bitcoiner, right? So if I sit down and say like, you know, if you were to outlaw, let's say someone's really against someone in my family is really against Bitcoin or something like it should be illegal, it's used for drugs and these things. Well, I use bitcoin and I love it and I want to participate in the system. Are you arguing that men with guns should come and lock me in a cage and if I refuse to go with them, that they should use violence or force against me because it's ultimately what you're doing, right? Then they're faced with that knowledge. They have to try and deal with it. And if they say that, yes, I still would, well, then I know where I stand with them. But the point being that there's going to be potentially decades of baggage for people that will make it incredibly difficult. Difficult to, you say, emotionally. And, like, I really think, like, ego in terms of personality, they may not be able to ever flip. It's just too hard to look at. Right? It's like if you made a really big mistake that you feel guilt about. Like, if you actually felt guilt about where the current generations are, your brain might not let you. Not everyone's necessarily that strong. Not everyone can be saved.

A (62:33)

You know, that is a fucking phenomenal point about the boomers, because I think, and to clarify, you and I both know a lot of really outstanding bitcoin boomers. Like, there's the bitcoin. There's actually bitcoin boomers. A new podcast, specifically bitcoin boomers with some great human beings. Some of my favorite boomers that I've ever gotten a chance to meet on it. And, like, they're the first to call out. I think one of the reasons that they are such impactful voices within the bitcoin space is that they're the first to call out and say, look, we see now what happened during our generation. We see that, wow, we had the easy money times. It's not to say everything was easy. It's not to say they didn't have their own struggles. Of course they did. Narrated Larry Lard's book and he so much of that book, the big print, which everyone should. You should read it or listen to me narrate the audiobook or do whatever. Larry Lard wrote a great book in the big print, but he talks about his own personal story and the story of his family and, like, it's not like it's all sunshine and daisies, like, but they're also. They have their struggles, but they're the first to admit, like, boy, we really had an advantage when it comes. And, you know, then there's the other side of boomers who are the ones that will not admit that, that we'll say everything. They got their house appreciating from being worth a bushel of raspberries to $3 million, you know, for their little, you know, two bedroom ranch house in. In San Jose. They're like, no, that's just. Just because I was a good Real estate investor. Like, that's just what that is, you know? Like, that's just. That's. That's all that is. And. And they'll just refuse to acknowledge it because it's so destructive to their worldview. They're pulling yourself up by your bootstraps worldview. Like, it turns out, like, it was just easier to pull yourself up by your bootstraps than the money was starting to be shit. But it was not nearly as shit as it is today. And as the money breaks, so too, breaks everything else with it.

B (64:30)

Well, you also take that narrative away from them. Right. Sorry to interrupt, but it's like, if it. If you said, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, but that's not actually what happened here. And so you start to. You start to fuck with their identity a little bit, too.

A (64:44)

Exactly. No, no. Interruptions are always welcome here. That is exactly correct. You are breaking the story that they tell themselves.

B (64:54)

Y.

A (64:54)

You're. You're breaking that. And you're making all the times that they said, well, if you just stop by an avocado toast, then you'd be able to afford a house. It's like, I've never bought avocado toast. Like, it's not that good.

B (65:05)

I don't get it.

A (65:06)

What? What? Like, I don't live in the, you know, Bay Area right now. I'm not buying. I don't know if they. It feels like they probably eat more avocado toast out there. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe. But the point is that that's just like a meaningless trope, right? It's like. It's just. And if you break people's worldview, they tend not to like that. And I think this is why I'm always very impressed by gold bugs. Again, like, Larry Lepard is a great example, was a staunch gold bug, but who came around to bitcoin. And there are a lot of gold bugs who have come around to bitcoin, but in order to do that, it required, like. Because the thing about being a gold bug is you are directionally correct. You are directionally correct. And, like, gold's not bad, right? Gold is really good. Gold's been amazing sound money for thousands of years. It's just not the best money in the information age when bitcoin exists. And the failures of gold are why we have fiat today. Amongst other conflating factors. Yes, but, like. Like, really distilling it down so the gold bugs, who can say, okay, yeah, I guess I'm not a gold Bug. I'm just. I'm like a sound money bug, and this is just better sound money. I have so much respect for folks like that. Folks like Larry and who's done a great job of advocating who still goes to gold conferences, which they. They have. Apparently.

B (66:26)

They're a thing.

A (66:27)

Yeah, they're a thing.

B (66:28)

And talk to people about it. Like, the least slope ramp going in you've ever seen. Sorry, I just had to slip the one in there. But then you're absolutely right. I just. There's something that popped into my mind that I threw out there, too, that just goes back to this. It is extremely commendable for those that are willing to actually change their mind, because that's not an easy thing to do to shift their worldview, particularly when it's wrapped up in how they view themselves or part of their identity. And the example that came to mind is like, I don't know about you, but I haven't gotten a single apology about COVID right? Not one has come my way. Despite everything that happened. People aren't. Even though, like, you could lay every. They probably just wouldn't want to look at it. Like, you lay out everything that they said or did, and you could talk about everything what happened and what was actually true and who was correct and what the evidence supports after the fact, and it would just. They just wouldn't want to look at it. It would just be too difficult, too painful for them. And so I don't. I don't expect them to, and I commend the ones that do, because that's not easy. No.

A (67:25)

No, it's not. And that's the thing. Oh, God, Covid is just such a frustrating one, right? Because, like, all the people. All the people, even just who. All the things you could get deplatformed for, all the things you could get censored for, just which. Which it turns out, like we're just. Was just telling the truth. Like, that was just you telling the truth about something which later then came out as the truth. And even, you know, the science backed it up. Even though the science. Well, the science always backed it up. The science didn't back it up. That's just like. Like maddeningly ridiculous. Because there's. And there won't be a reckoning for that. Like, if there hasn't been a reckoning. Because I think a lot of people thought, like, oh, well, Trump will do that, right? And it's like, no, he won't. He started the lockdowns. What are you talking. No, he won't. He bragged about Operation Warp Speed. What are you talking about? What sort of bullshit revisionist history is this? I'm not an anti Trump person. Right guys, just to clarify for anyone out there, he's like, this guy must be a fucking liberal. It's like, like no, I'm not. No, I'm not. I just believe in calling out people no matter what side they're on when they do stupid shit. And Operation Warp Speed was stupid and lockdowns were stupid. Two weeks to slow the spread was stupid. Trump printing ungodly amounts of money was stupid. Trump sending out checks to everyone was stupid. Trump sending out, you know, the PPP was, was stupid. You like. Also, none of that should have been necessary because we just never should have locked down. And this actually brings me to another thing which I just, I just saw before this and I wanted to actually bring up, which is I just. Let me find this again. Okay, wait, I'm going to share my screen because I just saw this. I was just, I was just on X and looking at headlines just before, before hopping in here and I was, let's just see what's happening here. Let's just.

B (69:06)

Going on in that world today.

A (69:08)

And this just, I mean it's a grok summary to be fair. But let me. Hold on, where are you at? I will find you. Oh God, so many tabs. So many tabs. I'm gonna find this. It's just an absurd fucking headline guys. And you, you need to see it. I will find it. Hold on.

B (69:30)

While you're pulling it up too, I gotta just make one point I think is really important while you go there and search through is that this, it is a double edged sword. It does cut our way as well too. So just like everybody, like no one admitted that they were wrong about COVID No one will admit that they were wrong about Bitcoin either. And that's how the shift can happen really fast. All of a sudden that was that idea of like a preference cascade we were talking about last time that when, when bitcoin's like big moment does come, everyone will pretend that they were always for it, that they had it for longer, that they bought it back in 2006. And as an OG listening to this stream, don't fight with them. Just be happy that we won. It's not worth the energy, it's not worth the battle and that it, the same thing will come because again people are, people are dogs, not cats. And they will largely just want to be. They just want social approval. They just want to get along with everybody else. If you're here, you're probably unusually disagreeable. I know that I am extremely disagreeable. It's kind of like a trait of early bitcoiners. Just a personality quark. Which again, makes sense because if you're going to, if you're going to stand up to the entire monetary world or the health world, or the public education world, or the food world or the military industrial complex and go, I think you're all fucking idiots. You're all retarded and you're all wrong. You're gonna have to be a little disagreeable. It's just kind of the nature of the beast. Did you find it there, good sir?

A (70:44)

I, I'm still, I'm still struggling. Also, my computer's about to take off. Could it be that I am live streaming while also having 50,000 tabs open? Perhaps, perhaps that could have something to do with it. Hold on, I'm gonna find, I'm gonna find this thing though.

B (70:56)

I've got a bunch open.

A (70:57)

Hold on. We've almost got it. While you're pulling, I'm actually, I know where the thing is. I just can't, I just can't seem to be able to find it in my tab sharing. So. Okay, now I think I've got it. Okay, here we go. Here we go. Okay, you can see this. Yep. Okay, so.

B (71:15)

Oh my God.

A (71:15)

Pledges $2,000 tariff checks and 50 year mortgages at McDonald's summit. And I'm just like, that's gotta be a fake headline, right?

B (71:26)

You know what immediately reminds me of.

A (71:28)

Come on.

B (71:29)

Costco University from Idiocracy. I'm pretty sure that was Idiocracy.

A (71:32)

Oh my God. Idiocracy. Turns out it was just a, it was a documentary.

B (71:36)

But you know what's funny? The message of that story is not what you think it is. It's that the person to blame is the one who did nothing. That the average guy that people let it get to that way. Right? The lesson there is that this is the path we're going on. And yes, it's super humorous, but it's up to us bitcoiners to stack sats, learn as much as we can, and have a plethora of children and not let that be the case.

A (71:57)

I, I, I actually, I agree with that interpretation of the message. Like the whole, the whole thing, like the intro sequence of that movie is so, so brilliant where it's like you've got, you know, the, the, the, the super like kind of clearly affluent, but like you know, nerdy and very like, type a couple who's like, oh, you know, well, we can't have children in, in this economy. You know, I mean, with macro conditions, what they are. And it's like, meanwhile, you know, like, like Joe Blow's out there pumping out his 28th kid. Like we, you know, with, with, you know, 20 different moms. And it's like, yep, yep. Like, yep, that, that, that is accurate. Like, that is accurate. But I'm very bullish on, on bitcoiners having, having a lot of babies, which I, I see, I, I see very much as a trend right now. So, so that's good, Trump, but this.

B (72:42)

Is an insane $2,000 terror checks and 50 year mortgages at McDonald's summit. I'm just. Wait, I'm trying to, like, scan through. I see fry cook there. I was just scanning through to be like, speaking on the Big Mac stage after the Coca Cola. Like, my Lord, we have multinational fat. That is the most. And I'm sorry, because my country sucks, but that is like the, would you say it's the, the worst of American culture. Do you know what I mean? In the sense that, like, were speaking at the McDonald's summit with the golden arches behind him. Like, I'm, I'm not, I'm surprised he's not got some fucking fries on the side of the stand.

A (73:21)

I just thought it, like, when I first saw this headline, I was like, it must be some sort of like, grok glitch, because, like, okay, it's like the joke is, you know, you know, like Trump was serving, you know, serving burgers and fries at McDonald's and like, you know, Bitcoiners go and work at McDonald's when Bitcoin's crashing. So there must be some, like, some, some wires got crossed. But it's like, oh, no. Oh, no, this is real. This is real. And it's like, again, Trump sending out guys. I'm really sorry if somebody is super pro Trump and thinks he can do no wrong, but you should be able to call out. First of all, I think the guy's hilarious. I think he's the greatest comic of our generation. He's truly incredible. He is electric. I saw him at the bitcoin conference. I saw him speak. I've never seen somebody play a crowd like that in my entire life. It is insane. The guy has a presence. I can only imagine that it's even more intense in person than it is from what I've heard. That being said, what do you think is going to happen when you send out these $2,000 checks that we're 38 trillion fucking dollars in debt and you think that, like, oh, you're going to send out $2,000 checks. That certainly isn't going to impact prices at all. Right. That's certain. There's no negative externalities from that. Like, nothing's gonna happen there. Like, I just. This feels like Trump grasping at straws, trying to do whatever he can because he's like, I'm very, I'm very glad that Trump freed Ross. Right like that. That, that is honestly the. It's incredible that he did that. And I'm so, so happy that Ross is free, as I'm sure he is even more so in his family. And man, it is fantastic. But we should also look at the other open source developers who are about to go to prison. Samurai Devs and Bitcoin Fog and Tornado.

B (75:05)

Come to the podcasters one day, guys. We're gonna support them now. You better support us later.

A (75:08)

Yep, yep. And like, man, it's just like this sort of stuff, like, let's. We'll just send out $2,000 checks. Like, I'm sorry, but that's just like, it's just stupid and it feels desperate and it's. It's not going to meaningfully fix anything. Like, you're just trying to buy votes. You're just trying to do the same that the Democrats did when you're like, we'll just forgive all student loan debt. We'll just do that because the money doesn't matter anyway. We just make it up. And like, yeah, well, you do. But none of them actually say that. Like, if they said that, if they were like, it's okay, it doesn't matter. We just literally print it out of thin air. I don't even know why we charge you guys Taxes. Like, it, like, it's all good. That'd be like, you're honest.

B (75:48)

Ah, Jesus. Like, Biden's like, like economic council. Or like he had one of the guys from the Biden administration and they're like, why does the government need to borrow money that it prints? And you just watched his MMT kind of like mind break that. No one actually ever posed that question. He didn't have an answer to him. I could give him the answer. Like, there is a reason for it. But to your point, like, one, yes. On the Trump thing, big Trump supporter in 2016, being a Canadian, if I could have voted for my tool, I vote. If I could, I probably could have crossed the voter and boat. Let's not kidding. Let's not kid ourselves. I absolutely would have on the Free Ross thing. Like, they got me hook, line and sinker. And I'm well aware that they found the like right propaganda button to push that. Like. Yep. If I could have, I would have gone in and pulled the lever. Push the button. Take the thing for Trump on that one. To your point, he is a master, master communicator. And it is worth studying and learning from Scott Adams book, which I hope he's doing okay these days. Win Bigley, go through it. It's phenomenal in terms of communication. It will send you down a communication rabbit hole. That's definitely worth checking out. But. But I say all that to soften the blow of what's coming next. If you follow Trump on everything, then you're just a follower and you don't think from first principles or have your own damn opinions. Of course he can do wrong. They all can. Hopefully he's the best guy for the job. He still could think he's the better pick for Kamala. I think we all kind of agree to that and definitely better than Biden. But again, as Bitcoiners, we realize we can't vote our way out of this. And besides, if. If his. If you're. If you're a giant Trump supporter and you're part of his base and you won't hold him to account, then who the fuck is going to, right? You. You can't just be a sycophant, right? If you want to have change, if you want to have. He's only got a couple years left now. What we got like two and a half or something left here. If you want to have impact over Vance, Vance has to at least have the illusion that he could lose support if he fucks up. Right? So of course, if you support Trump and he's doing dumb things, then support. It's like giving an addict crack. It's like you're not actually supporting him in that moment. If he's doing something stupid. And you guys, if you're. The base doesn't like it, it then direct them the other way. You have influence over the man because he wants your support and popularity and legacy. So use it.

A (77:48)

I think that that is spot on. And the difficulty, at least in the United States, I don't even know how many. How many parties you have up there in maple syrup country, you know, but several. Several. Which. So, like, I don't actually know like what. When it comes to democracy, like, there is no solution.

B (78:07)

There is no solution. Yeah.

A (78:09)

Right. Like, you know, it goes back to that clip of the guy that's like, you know, like the people are retarded.

B (78:16)

Like, you know the people are retarded.

A (78:19)

Yeah. But point being, I don't know like what the right number of parties is, you know, because ultimately all of the parties end up just debating between each other about who's going to take more or less of your shit and who's gonna print more money. Like it's never who's gonna print less money. Like, right, like they're all gonna print more money. Just a question of how much more they're gonna print. But in our American duopoly in this, my father in law who escaped communism, calls it Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola democracy.

B (78:52)

Which is like Spawn goes with that McDonald's conference.

A (78:57)

It really does. But just Coca Cola for McDonald's.

B (79:00)

Right.

A (79:00)

They don't have that Pepsi contract. But it's, it's, it's like everyone is so hesitant to call out any of the fuck ups on their own side because there's this idea of like, well, you know, yeah, our, you know, our side's like, our side's not so great, but like at least they're not the other guys. And both sides think that. And so it's like they will just to a fault, defend, defend, defend. Even when you know, like you, you know something is stupid or you know something is fucked up. And again, I'm talking about both sides of the aisle here, you know, something is dumb, but you still just go along with it because you're like, well we gotta support them. Like we can't admit that like maybe this is a dumb idea. Because you know what's gonna happen in the midterms then what's gonna happen in the general? And it's like it's always this back to the cycle idea. It's like, man, just so happens that bitcoin havings tend to fall on U.S. presidential election years. Which is interesting, right? Again, probably just a coincidence there because of the timing. Cause Stoshi's like, I can't wait any longer to release this shit. But it's frustrating because it's like, guys, things don't get better. Nothing meaningfully changes unless you actually start speaking up and speaking the truth. And that means calling out your own quote side when you see them doing dumb stuff. That's the only way that things get better. And if you don't do that, nothing ever changes. And maybe nothing even changes when you do that because nothing can be changed from within this system. You can't Change something from within the system you need to be building outside, moving your economic energy to the parallel system built around open source technology. Like, maybe, maybe it is not possible to reform this fiat system. Maybe there's no saving this fiat system. That's kind of, kind of where I'm at, where it's like the fiat system will just keep going. It will not be fixed. But we are building parallel systems at the same time and that is what we continue to move our time, our energy, our attention, our lifeblood, our energy towards this parallel system. And that ultimately just starves the beast. But man, it'd be nice if people could at least just call out stupid shit when they see it, even if it's from their side. And some people sure do, but the majority just don't. And maybe that's just human nature. That's tribalism, right? It's like my tribe good, your tribe bad. So I always say my tribe good. But boy, I would encourage people to do their best. Call out good shit when you see it. It sure. Call out bad when you see it. Like call out good when you see it from people you don't like and call out bad when you see it from people you do like and vice versa. And the world will be just even a little bit of a better place. Maybe.

B (81:35)

I completely agree, but it's the again, it goes back to the kind of disagreeable nature. It's the. It's. What do you want to be, right? Do you want to be the same as the herd or do you want to be a legend?

A (81:45)

Right?

B (81:45)

Because to be a legend, you're gonna go against the group most people will never do. The hard things are required to be a fucking legend. Like stacking bitcoin right now, like starting companies, like starting a family when you don't know exactly how you're going to necessari pull it up, but you'll fucking figure it out and you'll make it work. If the system requires you to compromise on your values and integrities, then maybe it's not a system worth saving. And at least by calling it out you. It's like a. It's like having a debate. It's like if we were to go on spaces right now and debate some shitcoiners or something, we're never going to change their mind. It's never going to happen. What we're doing is we're talking to the audience. And so maybe you calling out Trump in no way impacts his polling numbers or what the party does or the choices that he Makes. But you might influence your neighbor or your friends to stop and rethink things and maybe go spend some time in the parallel economy or look for a different solution to this problem. Because there is no political solution. It's not possible. It's a fundamentally flawed system, right? If you're going to have essentially, whether it be like representation, representational democracy, or like a republic system, it's all fundamentally flawed because it's based on the idea that you can. You can violate certain people, have different rules. You can violate property rights. There's rules for some people, different rules for other people based on whether or not they have this random title. It can't work. It's incoherent. The nature loves universals. Gravity doesn't turn off when you go to Asia, right? It does. It can't happen.

A (82:59)

But at the very least, be pretty cool, though.

B (83:01)

Yeah, it'd be pretty fucking sweet if you could go float over there for a little bit. The I could be taller. That's the best I could do. The. If you're. You got to be willing to say it for a number of reasons, particularly if you're a bitcoiner, we know where things are going. You're going to say unpopular things that you believe to be true and even going back to that, like, even the COVID we were speaking the truth. I didn't know that I was always necessarily speaking the truth, but I for sure wasn't lying. And I knew that I wasn't lying. Like, this doesn't line up for me. Here's my previous knowledge. Here's what I'm thinking. I don't agree. Right. I could be wrong, but I'm not lying. And if the system is going to get worse, which, if you're still here, you probably accept that, then at the very least, the very least, what you'll get out of calling out bullshit is credibility when things collapse so that people at least turn to you for insight. You can help rebuild things. You can help shape the path forward. If you never call them out, you don't really have any sway or credibility or influence, right? We look back on like even going back to stupid TA charts, right? We see somebody makes a call for like, oh, bitcoin will be. What is it, 221,000 and something else on. I forget your call there, walker.

A (84:08)

Oh, yeah. $221,696 on January 1st.

B (84:12)

Perfect.

A (84:12)

Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still happened to very scientific call.

B (84:16)

If that hits. People look at you like a genius and all of a sudden you have Influence and you have sway the same. I know, right? It's complete bullshit number. So that would be a lot of fun.

A (84:27)

I just made it up.

B (84:29)

I rolled some dice. Right? Part of my new cold setup.

A (84:32)

Yeah.

B (84:33)

The. The same thing happens with the political system. Like, I look at. I love Dave Smith. Like, I love part of the Problem podcast. And I've listened to him for a long time, and funny enough, it was conservative commentators that had him on in the early days. I'm like, this dude's sweet. I love anarchy. Let's go hang out and listen to his stuff. But with those guys with what's his name, Martyr Maid does all like the history stuff. If you've been around saying controversial or maybe not necessarily popular things at the time. And Covid, again, being a prime example. And you continue to be right, you continue to build up social credibility amongst your peers and people that have listened to you, which means you'll have more influence and impact on the future. Right. And it's. It's as simple as like, this is a dumb idea. He shouldn't do that. Well, now you might be the guy in the group of friends that actually has political insight that might be able to persuade or push what should be the focus or policies. Next. Next. Right. Cycle, Next round.

A (85:25)

It's true. I mean, again, it's like, it's very easy to be a kind of just like a bandwagon person, right? To just. Just to just jump on whatever is convenient and whatever narrative happens to be. Especially so much of it is driven these days just by whatever narrative happens to be getting social engagement. The incentives are so perverse. That's one of the reasons that I love Nostra, is because these sorts of perverse incentives aren't rewarded. These sorts of. It's not algorithmically reinforced either by feeding rage bait to people, like, but on centralized social media platforms which do still have their uses, like, those are still top of the funnel. Right. This is why, like, as bitcoin podcasters, they're still very important. It's because, like, that's how you reach new people, right? Yep. Because the new people, the new people aren't just randomly on Noster.

B (86:13)

You know, I can see it in the stats. I can see the newcomers coming in.

A (86:17)

Yeah, and, and, and that, and also that, like, that's. That's why Noster is so enjoyable, because it's not full of just like. But it's a different story. Right. Point being, it's like, it's easy to just take somebody else's opinions about something that you've already seen publicly proven to be popular. To get engagement, it's easy to take those and adopt them as your own and recycle them and change the wording or don't change the wording at all. Just copy them verbatim. It's easy to do that. It's low effort. It's simple. And you know you're doing something safe. You're doing something safe because you're just agreeing with somebody else who's already said it. And when they said it, people liked it and the people that you wanted to like it liked it. So if you say it, those people like it too. But it's just, I don't know, gutless.

B (87:08)

There's no reward either.

A (87:10)

No, it's like, congratulations. You don't have your own opinions, you have somebody else's. You've been psyopped into whatever. And not that everything's a psyop, a lot of things are, but you've been sibbed into whatever rage, bait somebody wanted to feed you. You bought it hook, line and sinker and you just kept regurgitating it your own. Then you made it part of your identity. And when you make it part of your own identity, that's when you get into problems. Like if you don't have an identity of your own that is strong enough to stand at its own two feet and if your identity is instead something that is just copy pasted from somebody else, something that's just adopted, you haven't actually thought about, you didn't actually come to it on your own. You just said, well, that sounds. I like the way, you know, I like the way that guy. I'm just gonna. That's what I think too. Then there's nothing to it. There's nothing there. You don't actually have any real conviction with it, but you've made it part of who you are. You've made that like I am this kind of person. I do this because people that I look up to that are smarter than me, however I want to look at it.

B (88:09)

My tribe does this because I'm just.

A (88:10)

Following what they said. But man, and granted that's just going to be the majority of people, necessarily that's going to be the majority of people. But if you consider yourself to not just be the one that follows what the majority do, then maybe think long and hard about whose opinions you are adopting as your own and consider just maybe you should come up with your own opinions. Maybe you should just say, you know what, fuck that. Why don't I just think about This a little bit harder. Why don't I just actually put in the time to like, just sit down and think about this instead of scrolling X to see somebody else tell me what I should think about it? Why don't I just think about it and come to my own conclusion and pull in a bunch of different sources and think about this in a meaningful way? But the problem is that's hard, Nathan. That's hard. It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of mental energy, and it takes a little bit of time because you actually have to slow down and think about things and decide what do I actually believe and who am I letting influence my thoughts, my action, my behaviors? Like, you know, you are the people you surround yourself with as you are. The old trope goes. And when you surround yourself, like, I think that applies digitally as well. You know, it's a different dynamic. Sure.

B (89:29)

Our brain doesn't know the difference.

A (89:31)

Yeah, no, it's. That's a great point. Again, from an evolutionary perspective, it's like this thing is not caught up yet. It wasn't built for the Internet and for constant 247 news and inundation from every different side by more sources than we can shake a spear at. We're not built for it. And so I would just. Whether it be a theory about politics, an opinion about politics, or about Bitcoin and particular debates in and around bitcoin, whatever it might be, I would just encourage you to come to your own conclusions and think for yourself. And I think you'll find it much more rewarding when you do so.

B (90:12)

I agree. And I'll give you another secret weapon too, which you've got and I've got as well, which makes a world of difference. And if you don't have this yet, it might be the one thing that's more important than stacking bitcoin. So. Particularly over the COVID times, too. Right. It is very difficult to stand up to everybody and say, no, that you're wrong. However, if you have the love for me of my wife, then I can tell everybody to fuck off. I don't care what you think. As long as she still loves me, as long as she still got my back. I can. I can tell everybody they're wrong to go fuck themselves. But I have that. And it gives me. It's this incredible shield because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if everybody else thinks I'm an asshole or I'm wrong, or in that particular case, that I'm endangering people and I'm a jerk. Don't fucking care. Because the only person whose opinion matters to me is hers. As long as she's still good with me and she still thinks I'm awesome and she still loves me, I'm fucking untouchable. If you don't have that, you will have that. If you don't have it, I recommend prioritizing it because it does make you fucking invincible against the mob.

A (91:20)

I cannot say amen enough to that. And like, it is just like a. If there's any, you know, young men listening to this or. Or not young men, but men who don't have a. An incredible wife in your life, man, prioritize that and. And find. Find yourself a good one, because it makes a world of difference. And it, I think to your. Your larger point is like, that's clarity, right?

B (91:43)

Yep.

A (91:44)

Because that. That's like.

B (91:45)

Like it's signal.

A (91:47)

Yeah. Like, that is like. There is just so much noise out there. But what does your wife think of you? What do your kids think of you? My. My son's not quite old enough to really. I mean, I think he thinks he's great, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Like, give it a few more years. We'll see. He'll be a little bit more of a harsh judge, but, you know, for now, like, I'm, you know, gravy. But like, that that's what matters, right? Like, that's why we do all this at the end of the day too. We do it to try and be the best husband and father that we can be, to provide the best life that we can as a husband and father, as a provider. That's why we bitcoin podcast, Nathan.

B (92:21)

Damn straight.

A (92:22)

Damn straight, man. Well, boy, we've been on the time flies, really does this is now becoming a regular thing? Maybe anytime bitcoin price dumps, I'm just going to have to hit you up and be like, hey, we're going live. We're going live.

B (92:38)

We're going live.

A (92:40)

We're going live. What can I ask, what interview are you dropping tomorrow? If you want to tease it for folks, yeah, sure.

B (92:44)

So tomorrow. Tomorrow's Andy Shonover from Crowd Health. His is coming out and then I've got a couple. I've got one probably in the pipe that I'll put out next week. And then that Jack Cruz one I teed out. It's a. It's pretty evergreen content, I think, too time sensitive. So that one come out a little bit later. So should be. Should be a good one. I had a lot of fun time Talking to Andy, he. It was nice to kind of uncover. I realized near the end of the interview is like, oh, you were an ancap libertarian before you found Bitcoin too. So it was a great conversation.

A (93:13)

Dude, I'm. I'm excited to check those out. Yeah, it's. I actually wanted to. I wanted to chat with him and, and Jack for a while now, so.

B (93:21)

Maybe I'll hit him up. Jack's great.

A (93:24)

Yeah. Yeah, I. I've. I've like multiple people in the. In the live stream chat were like, hey, you should. You should do that. That. That would be very worthwhile so to make that happen. But yeah, it's. You know, we're in a. Maybe the. What we could end with here is again, if you're listening to this right now, you are still early. We're still so very early. You're. You're up at. At least for me, you know, midnight Central time. Midnight plus or minus a few hours. Maybe you're listening in Europe, you're already in, you know, in tomorrow. You're living in the future. Maybe you're in Australia. You're like, I don't know, six days ahead of us or whatever. Whatever. Whatever you Aussies are, but you're early.

B (94:01)

Y.

A (94:02)

You're really early. And these, these dips, like, again, I. I'm not. I'm like, I'm not an OG whale, you know, like, neither of us are like, these OG whales that are consider, like, you know. Yeah. One day, one day, 10 years from now, we. Yeah, anybody who's buying right now is an og, right? Like, that's. That's just going to be a reality. And so, like. But what my point is, like, when we say things like, hey, you should view this as an opportunity. This isn't us sitting on stacks of Bitcoin from 2011 saying, hey, no, no, no. This is us saying, this is how we view it. We view it as an opportunity because it is one. Because you have a chance right now. And again, I keep coming back to the fact, Nathan, that what we talked about earlier, it's like you fast forward five years, you fast forward 10 years. I find it very unlikely that you look back on today, on November 17th, now 18th, 2025, and say, boy, I'm sure glad I didn't stack more sats on that day. I just don't see it happening. And so if. And if you do have any dry powder left, which I am.

B (95:04)

Jesus. Lucky you, boy. Did you forget about some in the closet? Like, how'd you pull that off?

A (95:10)

Yeah, no, just. Well, luckily our had responsibly had set a tidy little limit order a couple weeks ago. It was like, just, just in case. Just in case, just in case, you know, Wicks down there got a hot tip and it did. And now I'm like, boy, why did I make all those buys in between? You know, I should have obviously put it all into limit order. But, you know, none of us have a fucking crystal ball, man. And it could have just as easily decided to rip our faces off. We don't fucking know.

B (95:34)

We never thought we'd go below the previous all time high. We never thought we'd get a new all time high before the halving. Do not think you know what's coming next.

A (95:41)

Bingo. Because we don't. We have no clue. But we can admit that, right? And that's why we can just stay humble and stack sats, man. Odell's advice just continues proving to be some of the best you could possibly give. Stay humble and stack sats. You'll be okay. Do this for your family, do this for your bloodline, and do it for yourself too. And while you're at it, start yourself a bitcoin podcast.

B (96:08)

Head to bitcoinpodcast.netgear to find everything that you need to start a bitcoin podcast. And before we wrap to you, Walker. What do you have coming out this week? What are you dropping?

A (96:17)

I have. I've got an interview with Alex Leishman, the CEO of River River. If I not sponsored, I was going.

B (96:23)

To say was that after the last. Was he like watching Be like, shit, I should sponsor them?

A (96:27)

No, no, still not sponsored by them. Just had him on because I wanted to have him on. He gave a great presentation in. In D.C. when I was there for the bitcoin policy summit.

B (96:36)

Nice.

A (96:36)

About American adoption of bitcoin is a really interesting conversation. He's just like a fascinating guy. Like CEO, cto, like he. He's, you know, walking and chewing gum at the same time. I think it's very cool. And I'm just a happy customer of Rivers.

B (96:47)

Fair enough.

A (96:48)

Not. Not sponsored. Just like, like their product. Like, I don't have to use Coinbase, you know, I like that they're bitcoin only and. Yeah, got that. And then I've got Max Hillebrand coming out a little bit later in the week. Max is an awesome dude.

B (97:00)

Oh, good. Yeah, we had one. Why we bullish, like two weeks ago. Dude's just. He's like this quiet zen fire of like, I'm going to take over the state, and I'm building all the tools to do so. Here you go.

A (97:10)

I love Max. That is exactly what he is. He's a beautiful soul and a true anarchist in the true meaning of the word. Yes, I've got an interview coming up that I'll be dropping soon. For anyone that watched on Noster already, they've seen it. But with Angela McArdle, the former libertarian Party chair and current Mises Caucus chair, which was honestly super interesting. She's a badass.

B (97:34)

You should get Spike Cohen, too. I had him. He's awesome to talk to from 2020.

A (97:39)

Yeah, I would love to get him on, man. That'd be super cool. Jeff Booth on Today. Like now. Done two bitcoin podcasts in one day. As a bitcoin podcaster, what else can you ask for? You know, my cup overflows with the joy of bitcoin podcasting.

B (97:56)

Damn straight. Damn straight.

A (97:58)

Well, Nathan, this is great, everyone. If you're still listening to this, you should check out BTC Mentor and your podcast, because it is part of BTC sessions, the Umbrella. But you guys do a ton. You and your co host, Gary, who definitely did not. Did not. The 60k bottom, it's the 60 dev. No matter what you hear, it's totally false. That was not Gary.

B (98:20)

That was not Gary. Who? Somebody else?

A (98:21)

Larry. This is some other guy with a similar sunny name. But you should check out your show. It's fantastic. And we actually. We did a whole bitcoin podcast about bitcoin podcasting on that show, which is a blast. It was a great time.

B (98:33)

It was a wonderful time.

A (98:35)

We might just have to make this. Might have to make this a regular thing we're going to be doing. Maybe we can tease it now for any of the couple people who are still listening. What do you say?

B (98:42)

For the couple people that are still listening, there may be some more collaborative work coming out in the new year. So stay tuned, we'll see what ideas we come up with.

A (98:51)

Yeah, we'll leave you with that. And so, yeah, I guess this has been a pleasure, man. This is a great time. Now we should both probably, you know, get to, like, editing shit and, you know, upload.

B (99:01)

I gotta edit. I gotta finish cleaning the kitchen. You literally text me like, yeah, I don't want to clean podcast.

A (99:06)

I'm sorry, but. But what a rip it was. This was this needed. Needed. Far souls, thank you to everybody who tuned in. Appreciate you all, Nathan, Appreciate you. And yeah, I'm hopefully, you know, hopefully we'll just keep ripping and we won't need to do this again soon, but I kind of hope we maybe we.

B (99:21)

Might have a little friendly correction.

A (99:23)

We'll see.

B (99:23)

Not about the price. It's about the friends we made along the way.

A (99:26)

That's the real yield. And with that, we bid you all adieu. And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of the Bitcoin Podcast. Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening and share it with your friends, family and strangers on the Internet. Find me on noster@primal.net walker and this podcast@primal.netcoin on X, YouTube and Rumble. Just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram at Titcoin Podcast. Head to the Show Notes to grab sponsor links. Head to substack.com walker America to get episodes emailed to you and and head to bitcoin podcast.net for everything else. Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.