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DO THE F***ING MATH | BITCOIN AFTER DARK EP 1 (BAD001)

THE Bitcoin Podcast

Sat Dec 06 2025

Summary

THE Bitcoin Podcast – DO THE F***ING MATH | BITCOIN AFTER DARK EP 1 (BAD001)

Host: Walker America
Guest: Nathan (from BTC Sessions)
Date: December 6, 2025

Episode Overview

This spirited "Bitcoin After Dark" episode, originally a late-night live stream, captures Walker America's bullish perspective on Bitcoin during a period of pessimistic market sentiment. Joined by Nathan, the discussion unpacks why bearish moods don't match historic levels of positive Bitcoin news, offers advice for newcomers and seasoned plebs alike, highlights community and cultural aspects of Bitcoin, and laments fiat system woes—all with plenty of humor and the occasional tangent. The core message: opportunity is knocking for stackers who do the math.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sentiment Mismatch & Bullish Opportunity

Walker kicks off with the core thesis:
- Despite bearish vibes, he’s never been more bullish. The mood across Bitcoin Twitter and crypto spaces is negative, but the fundamentals and adoption news are historically strong.
- Quote:
  “That mismatch between the insanely bullish feeling I have based on all the incredible stuff that's happening and the contrastingly bearish price action...screams, like, opportunity. This is when you need to be stacking as hard as you possibly can...” (00:19)
Price context
- Hovering near $96,000 (Walker’s "fiat cuck bucks")—not a crash (“rounding error away from 100k”), and globally significant, especially in weaker currencies (03:06; 107:33).

2. Facing Dips with “Bitcoin Zen” (05:00)

Walker embraces dips thanks to DCA strategy:
- “[T]he longer that I have been just DCAing into bitcoin, the less of any sort of worry I feel. Anytime bitcoin dips...My infinitely printable US dollars are going to go farther now. I’m going to get more bitcoin...” (05:00)
A previous podcast with Nico from Simply Bitcoin introduced the idea of “Bitcoin Zen”: seeing dips as gifts, not threats.

3. Bullish Developments Ignored by Market

Historic news overlooked amid poor sentiment (06:06–06:52):
- Square enabling over 4 million merchants to accept BTC—using “bitcoin rails” for both BTC and USD payments.
- Cash App integrating more bitcoin features.
- Even the Czech central bank experimenting with bitcoin holdings.
“If this was 2020, people would be losing their minds over this news...now it’s just shrugged off.” (69:04)

4. Critique of Shitcoiners & Investment Philosophy

Contrast between DCA bitcoiners and altcoin traders (“shitcoiners”)
- Many market bears are “crypto people” who are underexposed to Bitcoin and overexposed to altcoins (08:23).
- Host laments his own mistakes with buying litecoin, empathizes with newcomers and those misled by the idea they need a whole BTC.
- “...what else do you need besides bitcoin when it comes...for the average person from an investment standpoint? You really, you really just don't need anything else...” (09:12)
- Memorable quote:
  “We have this incredible tool and some of you are out there being degenerates with shitcoins.” (10:00)

5. The “HODL” Meme and Trader Psychology (20:05–25:12)

Walker does a dramatic reading of the “I AM HODLING” post (21:16)—highlighting how most people can’t outperform Bitcoin by trading, so stacking and holding is the sanest path.
“If you're not beating Bitcoin by a ridiculous margin, there's very much no point.” (23:49)

6. Dollar Cost Averaging (DCA) & Plebs’ Peace of Mind

Both hosts praise DCA for peace of mind, especially during drawdowns.
Advice:
“You should look at this as a beautiful opportunity to stack more corn...you should not be viewing it as like, oh, this is the fucking end of the world.” (26:45)

7. Cultural Vibes, Community, and Meeting Other Bitcoiners

Nathan joins the stream (31:14), shares his own experience feeling less excited about the “2025 class”—but highlights how meeting Bitcoiners in person or through podcasts brings lasting excitement.
“The reason that I'm so unbelievably bullish is the people that I get to talk to in this space.” (92:08)
Advice: Go to meetups, conferences, or start a Bitcoin podcast—community is bullish, even if price isn’t (93:28).

8. Four-Year Cycles: Dead or Evolving? (40:42–49:38)

Hosts debate whether the “four-year cycle” holds up as more institutions and OG whales shape price action instead of predictable halving-related movements.
Nathan: “I think actually one of the most bullish things...is the death of the four year cycle narrative...For it to get exciting again, it has to be adventurous.” (40:42)
Discussion on how much halving cycles are psychological vs. fundamental, and whether new halving events will have diminishing effect.

9. Macro Commentary: Fiat System Critique and AI’s Impact

Fiat’s “biggest con”: Forcing everyone to be investors just to tread water due to constant currency debasement (28:23).
AI is supremely deflationary—further dooming inflationary fiat and positioning Bitcoin as the only sustainable monetary standard in an increasingly efficient world (76:12).

10. Philosophy of Wealth, Time Preference, and the Long Game

Bitcoiners are positioning themselves not just for financial gain, but for greater freedom and meaning: “If you are thinking in that timescale, you need to look at this as a generational opportunity.” (107:51)
Stacking Bitcoin now is about optionality and legacy, not just getting rich.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“If it is obvious to you right now…and you’re looking at this like, how the hell could you be bearish… Then you’re in the minority. Congratulations, you’re awake right now.”
—Walker (00:56)
On altcoins:
“Maybe you just shouldn’t be trading shitcoins. Call it crazy, you could just have been stacking bitcoin and not been a fucking degenerate.”
—Walker (08:30)
HODLing wisdom:
“I'm a bad trader. And so are you, most likely. I'm sorry if that hurts.”
—Walker (25:03)
On the stacking environment:
“When my infinitely printable fiat cuck bucks buy me a little bit more bitcoin. That's like…a good day for me.”
—Walker (19:59)
DCA and vibes:
“You just set a DCA…and fucking live your life.”
—Walker (28:23)
Community empowerment:
“If you're feeling bearish right now, start a bitcoin podcast, start talking to more bitcoiners. Go to your local meetup...”
—Walker (95:29)
Adoption Curve Realism:
“We've never had anything like bitcoin...How much hubris do we have to have to assume that we can figure out exactly what this is going to look like?”
—Walker (64:53)
On optionality:
“You don’t need to have billions for Bitcoin to be fuck you money. Bitcoin just is fuck you money…your optionality only increases.”
—Walker (104:43)
Legacy focus:
“We are going to be the capital allocators of the new world order…What are you going to do?”
—Walker (106:30)

Timestamps for Essential Segments

| Timestamp | Topic / Quote | |----------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–01:35 | Opening monologue: Sentiment mismatch and bullish opportunity | | 05:00 | Finding “Bitcoin Zen”: DCA takes the fear out of dips | | 06:06–06:52 | Bullish news: Square, Cash App, Czech central bank | | 08:23–13:05 | Crypto bear sentiment explained: Shitcoiners, psychology, empathy for noobs | | 20:05–25:12 | The “I AM HODLING” meme and why traders (probably) lose to Bitcoin | | 26:45–28:23 | Advice on seeing dips as chances to stack and focusing on DCA | | 31:14 | Nathan joins — discussion of Bitcoin culture, podcasting, and bear market community | | 40:42–49:38 | Four-year cycle: fading relevance, institutional impact, psychological echoes | | 64:53–66:18 | Adoption curve and humility: Why no one can predict Bitcoin’s path | | 76:12–81:26 | AI’s deflationary impact, the death of debt-based money, freeing capital for real innovation | | 92:08–93:28 | In-person connections, meetups, and how Bitcoiners inspire each other | | 104:43–106:34 | Optionality, economic freedom, and what Bitcoiners will do as “capital allocators” | | 107:51–109:26 | Big picture: Stacking for generations, high time preference, taking the opportunity now |

Tone and Style

Language: Candid, irreverent, and humorous with frequent tangents and sidebars
Energy: Casual, late-night confessional vibe; passionate and occasionally explicit
Community-first: The message is not just about wealth, but about building a better future, freedom, and sharing the journey

Final Takeaways & Calls to Action

This "boring," bearish-feeling market is a time of immense opportunity for those who understand Bitcoin’s fundamentals and long-term game theory.
Don’t get distracted by price or market noise—keep stacking, especially when sentiment is low.
Community is everything: podcasts, meetups, and connecting with other Bitcoiners will keep your spirits and conviction high.
“Do the fucking math”—Bitcoin is finite, fiat is infinite. Stacking now is generationally impactful.

Closing Quotes

“You have an opportunity right now, but it's up to you to take it. Nobody can...the orange pill must be taken willingly...most people are still asleep. But that's your opportunity. Take it.”
—Walker (107:51)

“If you're stacking sats right now, you will get to have the life that you want. So what do you want? What do you want to do? Where are you going to contribute what's meaningful and important to you?”
—Nathan (109:26)

Stay bullish. Start a Bitcoin podcast. Meet other Bitcoiners. Raise your family. Subvert the state. And have a great night. (111:17)

Episode link, guest information, and further resources: See show notes at Bitcoin Podcast

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Transcript

A (0:00)

Right now, to me, it feels like the most bullish time ever, but the price doesn't match up with that. We're not at new all time highs. We're not ripping higher. And to me, that mismatch between the insanely bullish feeling I have based on all of the incredible stuff that's happening and the contrastingly kind of like, quote, bearish price action, like, we're still hovering right around, like, we're a rounding error away from 100k, right? So it's not like, like, bitcoin's not dead. Like, zoom out, guys, chill. But there is a contrast. There's a mismatch there. There's a sentiment mismatch. And so to me, that just screams, like, opportunity. This is when you need to be stacking as hard as you possibly can, because for some reason, people just aren't seeing what is obvious to some of us. And if it is obvious to you right now and you're looking at this like, how the hell could you be bearish right now? How the hell could you not be stacking as much as you can right now? Then you're in the minority. Congratulations, you're awake right now. But you have an opportunity. There is an information asymmetry right now that you can take advantage of because bitcoin will continue to go higher. It. It just. It will, because. And it's not even bitcoin going higher. Bitcoin's just staying the same. Fiat's just being debased everywhere, always, all the time, forever, until they go to zero. You know that's going to happen, and if you know that that's going to happen and you're aware of bitcoin, you are, like, doing yourself a disservice if you are not stacking right.

A (1:35)

Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs. My name is Walker, and this is a Bitcoin after dark emergency broadcast on the Bitcoin podcast. Well, it's actually a rebroadcast because I've been doing some impromptu live streams late at night, and I figured I might as well release them as standard episodes for anyone who was not up late enough to catch the live streams. Because while everyone else seems to be bearish right now, I am insanely bullish. And I hope these rants make you a little bullish too. I've had guests for each of these rants so far, and we'll have more guests and more rants in the future, so make sure to head to the Show Notes to check out the guest links and give them a follow. And while you're there, check out my sponsor links and referral codes that I can keep making the Bitcoin Podcast this episode is brought to you by Blockware. What if you could lower your tax bill and stack bitcoin at the time? Same same time. Well, with Blockware you can new US tax rules let miners write off 100% of their mining hardware in a single year. Earn bitcoin daily while saving big come tax season. Get started at mining.blockware solutions.com titcoin and use the code tcoin to get $100 off your first miner when using the Blockware marketplace. Now this is not tax advice from me, so go speak with the team at Blockware to learn more. Again, that's mining.blockware solutions.com SL tcoin Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin after dark emergency broadcast.

A (22:58)

The reason this is so beautiful is because it just. It still rings true. Like, everybody has felt this. Like, I'm a terrible trader, right? I dabble in some of the like, like, with like a inconsequential amount of money, dabble in some of the, you know, the bitcoin treasury companies and whatnot. Because I like to remind myself of what a shitty trader I am. Like, I like to get wrecked just a little bit. So it's like, oh, you know what, I should have just bought bitcoin. Or if I do outperform like a little bit over a low time frame and manage to convert something into bitcoin, it's like, wow, I just spent way much, like so much more time than I should have paying attention to the charts of things that aren't bitcoin when I could have just been, like, living my life or doing something productive or focusing my craft or spending time with my family. But instead I like, wasted all this time trying to eke out a couple extra percentage points on top of the best performing asset in the fucking history of the world. And I was like, oh, I'll just beat bitcoin. Like, no, you're just not going to beat bitcoin. Like, some people will. Some people are good traders. Like, some just super autists. Like, I'm not autistic enough to be a truly good trader. I'm a bad trader. And so are you, most likely. I'm sorry if that hurts. And if you're listening to this right now, you're like, I'm not a bad trader. I'm a fucking good trader. I can spot the highs and lows. Pit, buff, 50 wing, wang, wang. Like, you're probably not. You're probably not. You're probably going to get wrecked. And even if you do well, like, did you do well in dollar terms or did you do well in bitcoin terms? Because they're very different things. And if you're not beating out bitcoin, like, what is the fucking point? Like, literally, what is the. What is the point? There, there is no point. And like, if you're not beating bitcoin by a ridiculous margin, there's very much no point. You need. You would need to be absolutely crushing bitcoin's returns for it to be worth your time, but the reality is that you probably won't. And also, like, I don't know, man, it's like, what's the point of that? Like, you can just set a DCA for bitcoin. You can just set an hourly, a daily, a weekly, or all three. Hell, why not multiple of all three? I don't know.

A (28:23)

Spot bitcoin via dollar cost average and fucking live your life. That is the best thing that you could ever do. And that is the beauty of bitcoin too, because you shouldn't have to be fucking watching charts all the time. You shouldn't have to be a master investor just to get by. That is like the biggest, fucking biggest con that Fiat has pulled on us. The biggest just honestly rip off is that somehow Fiat has convinced everyone that you need to be. Not only, you know, do you need to like, you need to work and your wife needs to work and maybe, you know, like you need to work like multiple jobs and like you need to work jobs just like at least one, you know, both of you need to work just so that one of your salaries can go entirely just to spending, you know, spending on your kids, childcare, like which just doesn't make any fucking sense. Like, you know. But okay, I digress. So many digressions. I apologize guys. But like the biggest con that Fiat has pulled is that everyone needs to be like to have two jobs, right? You need to have your, your job stacking Fiat, which is always depreciating, but because it's always depreciating because you're constantly getting debased by a fucking cartel, a cabal of central bankers who have absolute control over the monetary system because you're constantly being debased. You have to have a second job or maybe it's your third because you already have two, maybe it's your fourth because you already have three, I don't know. But you need to have another job which is trying to Invest to beat the rate of inflation, right? You have to spend so much time, an inordinate amount of time, just trying to keep pace with or beat inflation, just trying to keep your head above water so the fruits of your labor are not debased to oblivion, are inflated to oblivion. Bitcoin completely changes that paradigm because you no longer have to spend all this time trying to figure out how you're going to beat the fiat debasement. It's bitcoin. That's the answer. You just stack bitcoin. You just set a dca, and when bitcoin dips a little bit, maybe you smash, buy a little bit, get a little crazy. But that's all you have to do. That's it. Like, you don't have to do anything crazy. You don't have to be a genius trader. You don't have to do anything besides just stack Bitcoin. And that's really hard, I think, for a lot of people. It's hard because we've been told that.

B (33:17)

With you in the same sense that just like something doesn't feel quite right. And it feels so anticlimactic as well too. Also, just the mood and the tenor for where we are. It's like, guys, it was so much worse in 2022. Like, there's. There's. There's nothing to be upset about. Be patient, be calm. And you know what it is? It's like, I'm unbelievably bullish on bitcoin. I wrote a newsletter about this actually this morning as well, too. I'm temporarily. I think this is a phase. I'm temporarily actually bearish on bitcoin culture, which is why I was so excited to see that you're a live stream. It's like, yes, this is exactly what I needed right now. I almost get the sense that from the ETFs and the derivatives and the treasury companies and all these things too, that we kind of, we kind of got soft from our own victory in the sense that like, when I came into Bitcoin, it was, it got wrapped up in my identity very quickly, right? I identified with the people and the culture and everything was going on there. There's this monetary revolution of basically like cypherpunk pirates. It's like, oh, I want to be on their team. I'm here to change the world. This sounds absolutely amazing to me. But with the success over maybe like the last year of the institutional adoption and it just became another asset in people's portfolios. It didn't, it's. It's no one, no one identifies or has like a, A culture Behind S&P 500, right, or commodities futures. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. And so I, like, I found myself wondering why did retail not get in here? And I mean, James Jack had some great, great insight and we both talked to him with regards to. There were other alternatives in terms of like, number go up technology. But I think a part of it is, it's just like the inspiring characters that we have in Bitcoin. That like, sense of freedom and hope and optimism. It was kind of like winning the mainstream and the institutional side kind of, I think took the. Let me say we got, we got soft in our victory. And then additionally too, with the favorable conditions in the Trump administration, the way things are kind of going as well too. It's almost like we needed an adversary to be that inspirational kind of like underdog story. And I think that's why it feels like. It feels like a weird bear market. But I think it's just because we don't have our people here necessarily rallying or the newcomers. I don't really think I've met anybody that's like a class of 20, 25, dude.

A (36:17)

But it's. It's uncomfortable for people because they're like, why number not go up faster? And it's like, well, because there's guys with tens of thousands of coins who have held them for, you know, 15 years who are selling now, and they're selling way more coins than the treasury companies are buying. And, yeah, plebs like you and I are having our DCA buy us a few more SATs, and we're like, yeah, but like, for a lot of people, like, it's an interesting point about, like, not knowing about class of 2025 people. But I'm wondering also, it's like, maybe class 2025 people, just like, you know, they're just not on. They're not an X or they're not a noster or whatever. Like, they're not as vocal. Maybe they're just silently stacking. And right now maybe they're feeling some pain. I don't know. Maybe they. Maybe they are here on YouTube. Maybe they're here watching this stream right now because they can't be watching it on X anymore, apparently, because X just kicked me off these. These sons of bitches. But, yeah, I don't know. The vibes are weird, but I'm. I'm just feeling bullish, like, I can't help it. What if you could lower your tax bill and stack bitcoin at the same time? Well, by mining bitcoin with blockware, you can. New tax guidelines from the big beautiful bill allow American miners to write off 100% of the cost of their mining hardware in a single tax year. That is right, a 100% write off. So if you have $100,000 in capital gains or income, you can purchase $100,000 worth of miners and offset it entirely. Blockware's mining as a service enables you to start mining right now without lifting a finger. Blockware handles everything from securing the miners to sourcing low cost power to configuring the mining pool. They do it all. You get to stack Bitcoin at a discount every single day while also saving big come tax season. Get started today by going to mining.blockware solutions.com TitCoin Again, that's mining.blockware solutions.com titcoin Use the code TitCoin to get $100 off your first miner when using the Blockware Marketplace. Of course, none of this is tax advice from me. Go speak with the team at Blockware to learn more one more time. That is mining.blockwaresolutions.com tcoin wish you could access cash without selling your Bitcoin? LEDN makes that possible. The global leader in Bitcoin backed lending, LEDN has issued over $10 billion in loans since 2018 and has a perfect record of protecting client assets. Why is a leaden loan different? Well, with custody loans, collateral is not lent out to generate interest, no credit checks, no monthly payments. Apply in minutes and repay whenever you want with zero penalties and proof of reserves. Reports verified by a top accounting firm are published every six months. LEDN gives Bitcoin holders a secure transparent way to unlock liquidity without selling. Learn more@ledden IO Walker that's L E D N dot I O forward slash Walker hey everyone, quick word from my sponsor Blockstream. Right now through the end of 2025 they are running their biggest sale yet. 21% off every blockstream Jade hardware wallet. No code needed. This is the lowest price you'll see all year on the most trusted Bitcoin only hardware wallet on the planet. Bitcoiners will always tell you not your keys, not your coins because they've seen exchange after exchange fail over the years and rug people of their funds. Having a hardware wallet means you never have to worry about that happening to you. Blockstream Jade is the simplest, most secure way to protect your bitcoin. Whether you're brand new or a hardcore stacker. Its sleek low profile design, full color display and dead simple setup lets you secure your sats in minutes. As your stack grows, Jade scales with you. Air Gap set up fully functional QR mode with the built built in camera native Multi sig support and tons more advanced features. Head to store.blockstream.com right now. The 21% holiday discount is live now through December 31st and you can use coupon code walker for an additional 10% off. Stock is limited at these prices and once they're gone, they are gone. Secure your wealth today before the next leg up. Grab your jade today@store.blockstream.com and rest easy like Satoshi intended. Now back to the show.

B (48:08)

So in Minecraft I remember with Tom Luongo he was always like we're going to kill the politicians in Minecraft. Not a game, the game, not real life. He always throws that like little prefix at the end there too. The only thing I ever got in trouble from was actually someone telling their previous stories of like abuse. And I think there was a little bit of touch of stories of self harm as well too without using those words particularly. That was the only one that I think ever saw. I got flagged on the back end for me. But no, I think you're absolutely right. It's funny because this is my idiot pleb opinion but as you were talking there the thing kind of struck me and I forget what this effect is called but it's something regarding like having perceived value because it had value yesterday. Like the reason that you think your money's gonna have value tomorrow or people accept that money has value tomorrow is because it had money yesterday. It's always kind of rear facing effect and so it can decline slowly over time. But like you know, $100 is good today. It's probably going to be somewhat close to that tomorrow just based on recent memory of it too. And I wonder how much of the four year cycle was just an echo of the early days. Because you're right, in the early days the mining subsidy meant a lot more in terms of the again stock to flow. Right again stupid model. But the idea is still there in terms of the available supply, what's going on and who the big sellers are. The sellers are coming from miners. Miners are the ones that are mostly selling I think at that point in time. And so I wonder how much of like it had an effect. Maybe cycle one, maybe cycle two as well too. But it was almost like just a psychological echo of just like it happened for the early people for the first point. So they just continued to. It was like a self fulfilling prophecy. It was just a psychological effect and that's why it's dwindling over time even more so than the, the Subsidy decreasing or in tandem with it. That it was just. They. It was the. That was the expectations. And as we go forward, that just declines and declines and declines until it's no longer the expectation.

A (50:33)

Yeah. You know, and. But if you're listening to this. Yeah, please, I will. I will take some SATs, especially right now, you know, but. But I, you know, I started stacking that, and it's like, I look at the, like, my bitcoin return. It's like, it's, like, flat or, like, even, like, down a little bit now because I was also, like, when bitcoin, like, popped up and then starts, like, you know, to, like, 126 and, like, it dropped down to 110. I'm like, yeah, Smash Buy. And now it's like, with drop down to, you know, 95. And I'm like, I'm really low on Fiat. Like, I do not have very much Fiat at, like, there is, you know, it's. I like not having a lot of Fiat. That said, it's like, damn, when. When, you know, when the dip keeps dipping, you're like, I wish I had a little bit more Fiat. But at the same time, again, like, where you get hurt is not where. Where it's like, oh, you know what? I. Yeah, I wish I had a little bit more Fiat. I'm like, you know, I'm, quote, overexposed to bitcoin right now. It's like, no, no, that's. That's not really like, where you get. Where you get wrecked. Where you get wrecked is if you were underexposed to bitcoin and you were overexposed to non Bitcoin things or some sort of synthetic bitcoin. And now you're like, shit, I'm. I'm down in dollar terms and I'm down in bitcoin terms even more. That's the dangerous position to be in. Like, if your bitcoin stack is down a little bit in dollar terms, like, it's okay, they're going to keep printing dollars. There's 21 million bitcoin. That's it. There's literally infinite dollars. And it's not just infinite dollars. There's infinite euros. There's really infinite. There's double infinity, Turkish lira and Argentine pesos and all these others. Like, you know, the dollar sucks. The dollar's the worst, except for all the rest. It's a skinniest kid at fat camp, Prettiest horse of the glue factory. Whatever you want to say, but, like, where you get hurt is when you are underexposed to bitcoin, overexposed to other shit. And so not only do you not have any sort of, quote, dry powder, but you also just are down bad in dollar terms. You're down really bad in bitcoin terms. And I think that's where, like, clearly, like, one thing that this. I haven't been around bitcoin that long, just been since 2020 that I started stacking. But, like, one thing that I've realized this kind of cycle time around is that, man, the like, quote, crypto people are super short bitcoin. Like, they are way long, all of their shitcoins and they are way short bitcoin. And they're freaking out because, like, they're. Because that's a. That's the worst position to be in. It's like you've got big shitcoin bags and nobody's coming to buy a man like that. That party's just. That party's just over. Like, there's not going to be any giant alt season. Like, I'm sorry to break it to you, like, you're. You're wrecked right now. Like, you may as well cut your losses, sell whatever shitcoins you happen to have and try to get as much bitcoin as you possibly can. Because that, that is what. Like, that's the only thing that's going to save you at this point. Like, it's not going to be your. Your fart coin or your other shit coin. Like, it's going to be bitcoin. But, like, a lot of people just like you, they got to learn the hard way, right? And that sucks. But, like, you know I'm sorry, like it's the reality.

A (56:51)

Most people just don't care, right? Like, but that's the other thing. It's like that, that meme of like, you know, the, the two. The two stands, right? And it's like, you know, bitcoin at like whatever low number, then bitcoin at all time highs. And it's like everybody's lined up to buy it when it's at, you know, all time high. And like, it's true. Like, something about human psychology is like, you don't. People don't want to buy bitcoin when they definitely should, and they really want to buy bitcoin when it's melting everyone's faces off. Because that's when it pops up in the news again. But when it's, when it's bearish, everyone who doesn't own bitcoin is like, well, it's a good thing I didn't buy, you know, again, right? You know, like, I'm glad I've ignored that since it was $10,000 or, you know, worse. But like, it just feels right now. And again, maybe we go lower, maybe we go back to 58k gang. Because 58, I don't know, maybe like, honestly, like, as rough as that would be, like, and that would be rough, that would be an incredible stacking opportunity because that's if you know it's going to keep going up. It is like there's 21 million guys, there's 21 million Bitcoin. There's infinite fiat currencies, not just infinite dollars, infinite other fiat currencies. There's infinite shit coins. There's infinite. All of these fucking made up fucking things, but there is 21 million Bitcoin. Like, you don't have to be a genius to work this out. Like, you can be far left curve or far, you know, right side of the bell curve. Like, as long as you're not mid curving it, you're going to be okay. Just like more bitcoin. Good. Like that is like that, that is what you need, you know. But again, it's like maybe this is kind of the opportunity too, like for, for the psychopaths who are out there watching this stream right now, for the people who are out there watching their DCAs hit and trying to figure out how they can maybe cut some expenses around, around the house to, to, you know, be able to stack a few more SATs. Like, you will be rewarded for this. You will be rewarded for this. And it may suck right now, but you can, you know, fast forward a little bit. Fast forward a year, fast forward four years, fast forward 20 years, and boy, like, you will be thanking yourself. You know, your, your, your children and your grandchildren will be like, wow, you know, legend like you, you, you know, you doubled down, you didn't get that extra avocado toast and you stacked the extra sats with it and now what could have been avocado toast now buys us a French villa. Like Fantastic, Grandpapa. Like, that's. That's where you're gonna be at right now. Like, probably legitimately. Like, I bet if you. The price of an avocado toast right now, if you go forward 50 years, I bet that buys you a modest French villa in sats.

A (62:23)

Like, which is just crazy. But I think that's your. Your statement is fair in the sense that perhaps Covid woke, like, it certainly, you know, did for me, like, speaking from personal experience, like, very much woke me up. And like, that's what made me decide to actually go down the bitcoin rabbit hole and figure out. Because they started sending out checks to people. I'm like, what, what is this? Where does this money come from? And you know, then you start asking the right questions. But, but, but, but maybe. Yeah. What? How? And it's like, we just, just like that. We just make it. We just print it digitally. It's amazing. But maybe that did bring out a lot more of the hardcore toxic bitcoin maximalist plebs that were going to come out eventually. But just like they. We just all Kind of a lot of us just came out at once, and now there's just a little bit more of a trickle. And maybe the, you know, the rest of the adoption curve just looks a bit different. Like, you just look. And it's also like, I was talking to. To Alex Fetzky about this, and he. He brought the fact that he's like, look, like when it comes to adoption curves, like, bitcoin's not the iPhone. Like, it's not. Like it's not a consumer product. You know, it's like, it's different. Like, it's money. And he made the point that when it's the iPhone, it's like your. Your potential, you know, loss there with, you know, buying an iPhone is like. It's like, you know, whatever, a couple hundred, five hundred, a thousand, whatever dollars. With bitcoin, it's like everything for you. For most of us, the cost of being wrong is much, much higher. The cost of being wrong about an iPhone is pretty low. Pretty low. Relatively speaking. You'll recover. And so the adoption curve, maybe it just. We don't know what the adoption curve looks like. We know what technology adoption curves generally look like, that classic S curve, but we've never had something like bitcoin. Like, you know, what is the adoption curve of a digital gold that's also way better than gold, because you can transfer it instantly 24 7, 365, and no one can stop you to anyone around the world. And there's an absolutely, completely programmatically enforced, finite supply to it. Like, what does that adoption curve look like? I don't know, because we've never seen it. How could we know? So, like, you know, maybe it's just one of those things. Like, all your models are broken. We have no clue. And the best thing we can do is, I mean, Odell hits the nail right in the head. Like, stay humble, stack sats and focus on your craft. Start a bitcoin podcast. You know, absolutely. Whatever you want to do. But, yeah, like, that's the thing. Like, maybe all of our priors just don't really work that well. Like, bitcoin is repricing the entire world.

B (66:18)

I don't think that most people are going to interact on base layer. And so that really opens up a lot of possibilities in terms of what adoption is going to look like. Even right now with what Square and Cash app are doing right, I would not be surprised for a long time people are still thinking in fiat terms. They're still using the dollar as the unit of account, but it's going over lightning rails in between because there's better infrastructure. Right. It's just got that final settlement aspect. We might see adoption from the producer side, from the provider side, but it really is being used as the value communication network for larger sums of value. Right. Most people might not ever hold on to direct Bitcoin. They really might not. And it's not the situation that I want people to be in. Right. And I'm very excited about like Ark and Spark and Lightning and everything that we got going off these layer twos to scale it out there. But at least transitionally, I do think it'll be a long time before that because the Psychological importance of a unit of account is really, really hard to get past. Right. To actually start pricing in something else. And we're already starting to see it. But you see it in the large scale buys, like, particularly I hear people talk about it comparing to real estate. Right. And that makes sense. Like for most people, their home is like the biggest asset that they'll ever own. So comparing the largest asset you own to your bitcoin stack, that makes sense. My house is going down in bitcoin terms, but I think it'll be quite a while before people really start thinking about like the classic cup of coffee in that sort of sense. So you're right. We have no idea what adoption is going to look like. And, and I think it's, it's too simplistic and kind of naive to think it's going to look like it is right now. But for everybody, if that kind of makes sense, like it's, it's. Most people will probably start using it and not even like, like the ETF or it's like in some sort of like mutual fund or something or some sort of investment vehicle. They'll probably start using it, not necessarily knowing that they're using it. Like how, how many people are using the Internet but have no idea what they're using it? But they use it all the time.

A (70:29)

Yeah, exactly. But like right now to me is like one of the. It feels like the most bullish time ever, but the price doesn't match up with that. We're not at new all time highs. We're not ripping higher. And to me, that mismatch between the insanely bullish feeling I have based on all of the incredible stuff that's happening and the contrastingly kind of like quote, bearish price action, like, we're still hovering like right around. Like we're a rounding error away from 100k. Right? So it's not like bitcoin's not dead. Like, zoom out, guys, chill. But there is a contrast. There's a mismatch there. There's a sentiment mismatch. And so to me, that just screams like, opportunity. Like, this is when you need to be stacking as hard as you possibly can. Because for some reason people just aren't seeing what is obvious to some of us. And if it is obvious to you right now and you're looking at this like, how the hell could you be bearish right now? How the hell could you not be stacking as much as you can right now? Then, like, you're in the minority. Congratulations, you're awake right now. You are. And you're like literally awake listening to this stream. So even better. But you have an opportunity. Like, there, there is an information asymmetry right now that you can take advantage of because bitcoin will continue to go higher. Like it just. It will. Because. And it's not even bitcoin going higher. Bitcoin's just staying the same. Fiat's just being debased everywhere, always, all the time, forever, until they go to zero. You know that's going to happen. And if you know that that's going to happen and you're aware of bitcoin, you are like doing yourself a disservice if you are not stacking right now. Like, I'm just happy whenever I, like, see the dc, you know, DCA went off. I'm like, huzzah. Like, there we go. Okay, more SATs for me. Like, what, What a great day. You know, Like, I don't know, it's wild. It just, it seems like an opportunity right now. That's what it feels like to me. And again, maybe we go lower. I'd like, not financial advice. Like, I don't give financial advice. I give monetary advice. Right? This is monetary advice. Like, bitcoin is the best money that humanity has ever invented, discovered, Whatever you want to say. There's 21 million forever. There's infinite Fiat forever. Do the fucking math. This isn't that complicated. You just have to stack sats. You just have to keep stacking sats and it's all going to be okay. And if you don't do that, you're going to. Everything's going to get more expensive for you forever. And if you do stack sats, everything's going to get cheaper for you forever. That's it. That's the whole thing. Case closed. Like, I don't know. I don't. I think there's no reason to overcomplicate it. That's just like, this is just reality.

B (74:18)

It was a very good, very good comment. It's the idea that basically like you'll have an entire population of people that will voice one thing publicly but think something else privately. Right. And they're not aware that they can, they can socially come out and say the truth. And as soon as it's like socially acceptable, it looks like everybody changed their mind overnight. But really what happened was they all started speaking what they really thought. And so as the fiat system continues to get worse, as things continue to accelerate as or decelerate, however you want to put it, it's, you're going to start to see that kind of stack up in the background as well too. Like we're still very tribal both in Canada and the U.S. right? It's like Democrat, Republican, like conservative, liberal and we're very stuck in their tribes. But as neither one can fix things going forward as things only get worse, you'll have that discontent kind of sitting in the background that there's something wrong with the system. And it's. I think it's like those kind of watershed moments, like going even go back to Covid, where you have a large. People go, like, hold up. Regardless of what's going on here, someone's lying to me. This isn't right. And you'll get that kind of the public shift where people are comfortable talking about like, yeah, why am I being debased like this? Why can't I afford anything? And they'll actually have that hunger to learn, to understand. And you'll see that it's. It's a lot of people are going to need to be socially acceptable. And I think that's why we get the. You got the euphoria in previous cycles too, right? Because all the hype. There's all the hype going on. There's no hype. It's not socially acceptable or cool or interesting to be into Bitcoin right now. It's just. It's just not right. Exactly to your point, like, I'm seeing co host Gary on Twitter. They're arguing people that are dunking on him. He's like, yeah, no worries, buddy. If you want to learn about it, I'm happy to teach you about it and I'll see you in a couple years. Right? We're currently not the cool kids at the table. It's AI, and therefore it's, you know, even. Even where your money goes to some extent is a popularity content contest. We just don't have that social. We don't have the low enough social barrier for unfortunately, the vast majority of people to be interested are into it.

A (76:17)

Technological industrial revolution. The industrial revolution was insanely deflationary, Right? And every technological revolution is super deflationary. That's a good thing, right? Like, that's a good thing for people. Deflation is not the boogeyman. Deflation is like, Is a good thing when it's technologically driven in the natural state of a free market is deflation. As you've read Jeff Booth's Price to Tomorrow, which you should. You would know that. But AI is just that, on steroids, right? Like, it's. And the irony being for the people that are so focused on AI, but like, ignoring Bitcoin is. It's like, what kind of money do you think is going to actually work in a deflationary world? You need a deflationary money, right? You need a money with fixed supply. Fiat inflation does not like, it does not work with technologically driven hyper deflation. Right? Those two don't match up because that just means for fiat to continue working, you have to keep printing. This is like Lyn Alden, you know, nothing stops this train, right? Fiscal diamonds. Like you have to keep printing. And if you like, if technology is driving costs down even faster than you can print, that's not a good situation. Like then the whole house of cards collapses. Like you need Bitcoin in this situation. But like so many of them don't see it. And so again, like even the people who are at the forefront who see what's happening with AI, so many of them still are so hyper focused on that that they don't see like what is necessarily going to need to be the new bedrock, the new, the new base layer of this system which, which is bitcoin. Like there's, there's just nothing else. And like it's certainly like, certainly not going to be gold, right? Gold has done super well for like 5,000 years. Gold's been on a tear recently. But it's like gold, there's a reason that gold, you know, we got off the gold center and all these things. It's like gold doesn't work in the information age. It just doesn't. It like it can't. It's been great for 5,000 years, but it's like it's the money of the past, not the money of the future. Right? It's sound money. Yes. Feel free to buy gold if you want to. Gold is still, you know, a heck of a lot better than Fiat or anything else out there. But in a hyper deflationary, technologically driven, deflationary world, you need bitcoin. And also it's very obvious what are AI agents going to want if we achieve artificial general intelligence. Like what's an AGI going to want in exchange for its compute? Well, it's going to want Bitcoin because everything else is just credit, right? But again, information asymmetry. There's like most people just still don't get that.

B (79:35)

I would make the, this a fun topic. I would make the argument that slavery held back the industrial revolution because why would you invest in labor saving devices when you have free labor, right? And that same sort of vein, like it was still a very net positive that people like lost jobs to industrial revolution and new technologies. Moving forward we gain more productivity. And again, your wealth is never $. Your wealth is in Bitcoin. I think people forget this as well too. You don't actually want Bitcoin. It's just the best money to give you the things that you do want in the future, right? It's the medium to get there. It's not the thing that you actually consume. But even looking at the AI thing, there are so many jobs in particular in the managerial class that are on the table, that are on the chopping block. And the reason being is that the way that I kind of it framed up is if you're an employee for a business, you're kind of working in the present. If you're an entrepreneur, right? Or like kind of that C suite level, you tend to be looking at the future, right? And that's kind of creativity. It's things that, it's things that may not exist yet. So it's not something that AI can use because it doesn't have rear facing data. But if you're in a managerial role that tends to be looking at the past, looking at your past data, whether it's logistics or distributions or sales or whatever it is, and then making plans or stocking up for the future. You can take like an extreme example of someone who's like a distribution manager, right? Well, historically you have to look at the data and go like, okay, I think these stores are going to need these items come the Christmas season. Like those jobs are all gone. If you have rear facing data focused jobs, that's the kind of stuff that the large language models of the AI can really power through. But as hard as that transition is going to be, and as deflationary as that transition is going to be, think of how much intelligence, like human capital is currently fucking around on Wall street trying to make trades just a fraction of a second faster, offering no value to anybody else. Because that's the money spigot. That's where their energy is being put. If you take those people and you unleash that entrepreneurial force on the world, like, my God, I was promised flying cars and Fiat fucking taking them away from me. And I just know that if we can get this thing on the right path, they're coming.

A (81:38)

Finance. And like, not that there aren't valuable things that you can do in the financial world, obviously there are, but the over financialization of everything based on the broken incentives of Fiat is what is the problem. Like just so much, so much time and energy and so much brain power that could be focused on really important problems is just focused on financial engineering that's not actually creating any real value. And there is financial engineering that can create value, right? Not saying that again, this is not like a binary thing. It's just that I think any reasonable person can admit that we have way, way, way. Let's say there's the incentives being broken has forced or caused so many more people to go and pursue careers in basically just financial vaporware, right? Instead of actually doing something that is for the betterment of humanity and not that, you know, like, not that you need to have like some high and mighty goal. Like you're like, not everyone's an Elon Musk who's trying to make us an interplanetary species, right? But like generally doing something that is in if the incentives are aligned, if the money is sound, doing something that is in your best interest, that provides value and that other people want to pay you for is going to be in everyone's best interests. But like when the incentives are broken because the money is broken, doing something that's your best, in your best interest is not necessarily in everyone's interest, like because you're just playing these weird financial financialized games, right? And like, I don't know, it's a shame, but it's one of the things that gives me so much hope about, about Bitcoin is like also some of these financial engineering jobs are just going to be obsoleted by AI, right? You already have Saylor being like, yeah, I just invented new financial products by Vibe. By Vibe coding basically with AI, right? Like, you know, like doing the work of a whole team of, you know, you know, investment bankers that are, you know, fresh out of, fresh out of college making, you know, half a million dollars a year. Like, nope, just Saylor and his AI.

A (89:21)

Yep, yep. I mean, again, just like insane. And that's the thing, like the solution to our woes. Whether, wherever you are in the world, whether it be the United States or Canada or the soon to be free state of Alberta or in Europe or in Asia or South America or Africa, it doesn't matter where it is. Like, government is not going to solve your problems. If government could solve your problems, we wouldn't have problems. Right. Our problem is not that. Oh well, if we just give government a little more power, if we just let them govern us a bit harder, Daddy, then it'll all be fixed. No, because if that worked, if giving the government more power would fix our problems, then there wouldn't be problems. This is not a complicated thing. But that's not the case because giving the government more power makes things worse. It distorts the free market more and more and more. Everything the government does is extractive. They're not a productive institution. The necessity necessarily not everything they do is based on extraction through the threat of violence. And so no, government is not going to save you. It can't, it cannot save you. It is up to us to take the freedoms that we want to have. Because again, the government can't give us any freedoms. They can enshrine rights, they can legally protect freedoms, but they can't give them to us. We already have the freedoms, we just have. We have to take them. And so, you know, how do we do that? Well, we do it by building parallel systems, right? Like bitcoiners are already doing that. We're already doing that just by the simple act of taking your infinitely printable fiat cuckbucks that you get in exchange for your time and energy and converting those to bitcoin. You are already engaging in peaceful revolution against the state. Like you are subverting the state in the most peaceful, cooperative, voluntary way possible. And that's through Bitcoin. And, and also, thank God that we have all these other tools like Nostr, like Ecash, like all of bitch at all of these incredible like technologies that are out there, like Keat and hole punch, all these different peer to peer technologies that make me so bullish because we have the tools available to us, like to, to reclaim our freedoms in the digital age. We have the tools available to us to step outside of the fiat Panopticon. Right, but you have to use them.

A (93:28)

Amen to that. The more time I spend with bitcoiners in the meat space, especially, like, when. When you're like, that's. That's one thing, like, people you know will say, like, oh, there's too many bitcoin podcasts. Too many bitcoin conferences. It's like, I don't know, I think we need more of both. Like, I think it's. I think it's good. I think people need as many opportunities as possible to be around and engage with other bitcoiners, whether that be passively through listening to podcasts or actively through starting your own bitcoin podcast, which you should. Or actively through being around bitcoiners at your local meetup or at a conference in the meet space, like, there is nothing better than that. And when you're around people that are, like, you said, you want to be better, right? You want to do more, you want to contribute more in whatever way we can, because we all have different skill sets, right? Like. Like you and I aren't writing code, right? You know, but those who can't code podcast. Like, this is, you know, as the. As the old saying goes, but it does. It's impossible to be bearish when you're exposed to all the incredible things that are going on when you're exposed to all the incredible people. And that's one of the things you like. That I realized as I started going to bitcoin conferences was just like, holy shit, this is just the most inspiring group of individuals I've ever come across. And it's so concentrated, too. It's not just like, oh, here's the random inspiring individual amongst the crowd of bitcoiners. It's like, no, no, no. Like, just about every bitcoiner you meet will. You will find some way to get inspired by them. And that's just. That's a really cool thing. And it's. It's. We're going to look back, you know, I don't know if you watch the Office, but there's, you know, there's that quote in there. Like, I wish there was a way to know you were in the good old days when you're in them. And it's like, we're in them right now. Like, we're going to look back at this and be like, holy shit. Like, that was kind of wild, huh? Like, we're around these people that are. That are building the future that we're all going to live in, or podcasting the future about the future that we're all going to live in. I don't know. It's cool. And again, if you're feeling bearish right now, start a bitcoin podcast, start talking to more bitcoiners. Go to your local meetup, go to.

B (102:05)

You have no idea. I've. It's a little bit hard on my wife right now. I'll explain why in the sense that I've never worked as hard as I am between the two companies, but I've never been this happy. Like, I was absolutely. And on paper, it was a great job. On paper, it was like, best job, benefits and vacation and pay and all these things too. But, like, I remember talking. I had a good relationship with one of our providers and I was explaining it to him. I was like, the thing that I need is not money. The thing that I need is just respect. And to be able to talk like that was my issue. Right. I was just, oh, this is, you know, token libertarian guy. Ignore his points and never give him any. Don't give him more responsibility. It was the best thing I did for myself. And actually, I heard Ray Dalio talking about this on a podcast. And if you're young, this is particularly good advice. Don't. Don't follow the money. Follow the people you want to work with. And particularly mentor under. That'll be the biggest ROI in terms of your career path. And I 100% agree. I have just, like, everything for me has accelerated. Working with Ben over BT sessions and him and Mike over bitcoin mentor. And I've. I've never been this happy because I have meaning. I enjoy what I'm doing. Right. I don't feel like I'm just wasting time. Fucking hell. Like, I'm sure you're mildly aware, but they literally waste money at the universities. They literally purposely waste money because. Yes, they do. They do. Walker. If you get a grant. If you get a grant and you don't spend it all, you will get less money next year. So the only way. And also if you don't spend it, it's not like you get to keep it. And like, it's not like you can save grant money, which is fucking retarded. It means that you have to burn it by the end of the grant in order to get the same or more the next year. And if you don't spend it, you will get less. You don't get to save it or keep it for it. So they would purposely dump money on the dumbest shit. And it was again, I worked, I worked specifically in research and it's such a. You meet people with a very narrow scope of focus and they're very brilliant in their one particular field. But, but if you've. Everybody should have like a service job or work in the trades. I'm a big believer in that. If you can, when you're young, start, start getting jobs. There's an important lesson in kind of being bottom of the totem pole and having those kind of those skill sets and kind of working your way up to. Because I would work with or work for people that had only ever been in academia, never been in like a for profit company and trying to communicate or plan with them or even just like the leadership skills is unbelievably frustrating. It's like you guys would die in the free market in a second. You're only here because you're subsidized by the government because you suck their dick.