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THE Bitcoin Podcast
F**k the State: Bitcoin, Open-Source AI, and Ending the Pedo-Cabal | Erik Cason
01:38:40
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- [00:00]
Eric Cason
So they have the one that are like, well, didn't it. Didn't it crash? Isn't it going to zero? And it's like, yeah, there's like significant drawdowns. Like, it's fucking painful and it makes you really need to stop and reassess what's going on. And for me, it's really valuable because I have to like, look at bitcoin and be like, wow. My mom was a single mom who like had a really hard time getting by. We like, grew up poor. But like, she still managed to like buy a house and like keep it today. Like, there's no fucking way that's even remotely on the table. You believe these people when they come to you and tell you that they're trying to implement age verification to protect the kids. Meanwhile they're actually taking advantage of them in the background. Like this representative democracy thing to me is bullshit. Like, I don't understand why I'm supposed to collectivize myself with a bunch of fucking idiots that can't think for themselves. My dream with the Orange Party is like eventually sweep the elections and full sweep of the feds of put them all on trial for treason. Whoever's found guilty, hang them publicly. We need to fight back at some point in time. There's a technological solution we have to this that nobody's thought of yet.
- [01:04]
Walker America
It's always like that moment of, you know, sending. I mean, you've been sending bitcoin transactions for a long time, but like for me, I remember, you know, first time I sent a bitcoin transaction even many times after that, it's still like, is it going to work? Like, did I. Did somehow my copy paste get infiltrated and did I get like, did I get man in the middle here? I feel like that with setting up live streams on Noster, it's like, is it going to work this time? Like, did I something up? And it works most of the time. Okay, I just posted it. Let's make sure it blasted out.
- [01:36]
Eric Cason
It'll be nice when like there you have like a competent like AI podcasting assistant that like you, you can count on and you know, like isn't going.
- [01:43]
Walker America
To completely the bed, dude, it really will be. And I mean, honestly, I'm of the opinion also that like, as far as, I mean, everybody's obviously talking about all the jobs that will be although like white collar jobs or technical kind of developer jobs or just like, you know, computer jobs, quote, it will be replaced by AI. And I honestly think I say this like ironically and somewhat baiting like in a baiting way, but also unironically. I think that podcasting, like, in the future, everyone will be a podcaster. It's like, it's no longer learn to code. It's like, learn to podcast. People will crave that genuine human connection with somebody when they know that the whole world is just mostly slop. It's like, what do people want when everything turns to slop? It's like you want something real. You want something that's actually somewhat feels like a human connection. I feel like that's what like a huge part of the rise of streaming culture was, especially during COVID was just a response to I can't get human connection in the physical world right now, so I need to find it in the digital world. And like, I don't know. I mean, granted, like, there's probably a point of saturation with podcasts, but then maybe not. Maybe in the future everybody's just their own, you know, niche, niche, niche creator. Like, I think there's a place for that.
- [02:55]
Eric Cason
There's an irony of that, like, in the most extreme tensions, like, of these dynamics that like, there's a very Hegelian effect of that. Like, the thesis and the antithesis come to represent this new thing. So, like, despite the fact that like, we're a world apart right now, that like the, like, you go into streaming for like the most human kind of connection. And it's actually interesting because, like, that, that dovetails a lot of, I mean, really a lot of the affects that are sort of going on technologically is that, like, we've. We've entered into like, such an extreme place of development with the technology that, like, it's only through its return and the representation of like, the antithesis of it that like, we're creating this new thing right now. And I think this is part of the whole exploration is that like, people are trying to find what it means to be human in the digital age. So, like, we're no longer. We're no longer just pieces of data, but we actually get to be human. And like, what is, what does that mean in the Internet? Because, like, that was never, it was never built with that intentionality, you know, like, it was always just supposed to be subsets of data. So now that we're trying to return to, like, what does it mean to be human in the digital age? I think streaming is just one part of it and it's sort of like personal branding, if you will. But that also represents its own anti humanism in a very particular way.
- [04:10]
Walker America
I Just love that you managed to slip in heiglion in the first, like two minutes of this.
- [04:15]
Eric Cason
That.
- [04:15]
Walker America
That is skill right there.
- [04:18]
Eric Cason
Hey, knowing how high goal has made the world work is an important thing for everybody.
- [04:24]
Walker America
It is. And Eric, I'm stoked to have you back, man. It's been. I realized it's been a. It's been a little. It's been a little while I think, since had you and Hodl on. We have no Hodl this time. Maybe he'll pop in partway through. Who can say? He's a man of mystery. Probably out at the shooting range. But like, I was just thinking about as I was setting up the studio here for this today. I was like, wow. The last time we talked was in the. The world before we had explicit confirmation of something we all already. Well, many of us already knew, which is that basically, like, our country, and not just our country, like our world is run by this, like, pseudo cult of satanic pedophiles, and we all pay taxes to these satanic pedophiles. But now we have like, actual pretty hard and fast confirmation of that, even though most of it's redacted. I don't know, it seems. Do you think that that actually ends up mattering? Do you think that that breaks enough people to a certain point where they realize, like, oh, all of this is just bullshit? Or do you think where everyone is so sucked into just like getting through the. The fucking day and just putting food on the table and trying to deal with the pressures of life, it actually just doesn't end up moving the needle that much?
- [05:33]
Eric Cason
Definitely the latter. I mean, like, the. The fact that all this information is coming out is part of a limited hangout. And like, the. The fact that we are ran by, you know, like. Like most normies, even if you put it in front of them of like, hey, like the Epstein stuff, it turns out it's true. Blah, blah, blah. They'd be like, oh, God, that's so horrible. Like, back to my tv. I mean, it's pretty sad because, like, I think this is one of the places that I want to. That, like, I push in a particular way because, like, I think we need more radicalism. Is that like, it. It's. There isn't. Like, look at what Covid was it there. There. There isn't some event that's going to come about where people suddenly radicalize themselves and they're like that. Like, that's the line. Enough. No, like, like the police show up their house and give them a gun. They're like, you need to kill your neighbor. They'll be like, oh, okay, well, I mean, if, if the police said so. And I, you know, like it to me it's one of the dark and horrific truths of that. Like we, we live in a day and age where most people in my opinion are sort of, you know, like any of us could fall into this. But like they're still plugged in the Matrix in a way and very similar to what, what Morpheus said is that like, you know, like the, these people are dangerous to us. Like they're not, they're not going to spontaneously awake and become our allies. Like, like they're very dangerous because they're plugged into a Matrix where they'll tell you stuff that like, like if you say Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself, they'll be like, whoa, that sounds like crazy conspiracy theory stuff.
- [07:01]
Walker America
That's what the report said. What do you mean?
- [07:04]
Eric Cason
Yeah, and like it's, I struggle a lot with it because like on, on one side, like I have very deep empathy. Like I, like I understand why we want to believe the media and why we want to believe that the government loves us and wants to do good. And like, you know, why, why we should just let everybody come to America and we should all be able to hold hands and hug and that. Like, it should be like a happy great experience. That's not reality. And like, and I'm really sorry, like, I really wish it was different, I very sincerely do. But like, we have to look at the facts of the matter. And also it's like, it's pretty clear that like, like the sexual pedophilia cult thing, like that was kind of like a side project for Jeffrey Epstein. Like that was the, was probably his hobby. Like his main thing was probably being a major financial trading hub in terms of like washing money. But also like he was involved in arms dealings and other things and that like, so like the, like that was just kind of like a side quest. And so when you really start looking at the makeup of what's going on, it's like not only is the thing that we call democratic and representative, like completely corrupt, but that like, it's probably in service to like a much larger and more wicked and impossible to sort of fight structure. And it sucks and it blows. And I wish we could vote our way out of it. We can't. Bitcoin is a great start. It's tangentially allied with like a bunch of fucked up shit that like, I don't know, we got, we got pretty off track in the last five years. But, yeah, I don't know. It. I used to feel a lot more anger about it, and I think I just. I felt that for too long and affected my own life too much. So in a lot of ways, I'm more accepting about it. And also, like, I think at some point we have to just kind of worry about ourselves more than kind of the. The greater country on a whole and hope that they get it, but I don't know. It sucks. I would. I wish. I wish people would wake up.
- [09:03]
Walker America
Can I ask you to elaborate on the part about the last five years and just the getting off track? What do you mean by that specifically?
- [09:10]
Eric Cason
I think, specifically, like, the tangent. Like, at first I thought what David Bailey did with Trump was okay. Like, there was a particular number of wins that happened with it. Same thing as, like, getting integrated with the nation state. But like, now I'm realizing, like, it was. It was like a pretty dangerous flaw. The obfuscation between bitcoin and crypto. Same thing. And I think, like, we've done a pretty good job about talking shit about these people, but, like, I think we should have developed more of an eminentity with them and been like, very clear. Like, fuck these people. They are fucking scammers. They've hooked their wagon up to ours. I think there was a number of us that did. Like, you know, like, I'd give us a good B with it, but like, yeah, it's just. It's very difficult for me now when I tell people, like, you know, I'm a bitcoiner. This is what I do. And they're like, oh, like crypto. And I want to be like, I'll rip your eyes out and show them up your ass to make you see how wrong you are if you ever say that again. They're like, whoa, like, chill, dude.
- [10:07]
Walker America
It is. It is crazy, though. Just on. Sorry to interrupt, but on that point, like, it is kind of crazy for all of the drum beating that bitcoiners have done about, look, this. Like, this isn't crypto. It's like it. It hasn't moved the needle that much in terms of public perception or public confusion. Like, it's maybe moved it a little bit, but, man. And maybe that just goes back to the fact that most people, because they are still plugged into the matrix, they cannot be bothered to go even one layer deeper to say, huh, well, let me check my assumptions on this. I'm calling all of this crypto. Like, oh, F. FTX Sam Bankman Freed that's like, that's bitcoin, and bitcoin is crypto. And, like, because that's like the jump most people make. I don't know how many, can't even count how many times, like, if I brought up bitcoin, somebody would say, like, oh, like the ft, the Sam Bankman Freed thing or whatever, and. And you'd be like, oh, like, you got to be kidding me. But it's like, again, like, maybe just most people won't ever be woken up from that or can't be bothered. I don't know.
- [11:03]
Eric Cason
Like, I. I wish I had said different, but, like, Plato's Cave is literally about this. And that's like a story from, you know, fucking more than 2,000 years ago. And, like, it. I don't know. Like, for me, it's really difficult because on some level, I. I feel very torn because, like, on one level, I want to empathize and understand that, like, a lot of people don't have the time, effort, energy, capacity, whatever, to be able to, like, look deeper into this stuff and they're plugged in and that's not their fault. But on the other hand, at some point, like, I start feeling really upset and contempt full, and I have to be like, you. You need to empower yourself at some point in time to, like, figure out how and why the world works. But I found a lot of people don't do that. And, like, for me, it's a real struggle because I'll be like, like, here's this bitcoin thing. It could help you. And they're like. I mean, I'm like, no, like, sincerely, you should, like, look into it deeper. It's, like, really important. Like, oh. And it's. I don't know. It pains me deep, deeply, because it's like, okay, well, I led you to water. You don't want to drink it. Like, if you want to continue living your fiat lifestyle doing what you're doing, okay. And then also they have the one that are like, well, didn't it. Didn't it crash? Isn't it going to zero? And it's like, yeah, there's, like, significant drawdowns. Like, it's painful and it makes you really need to stop and reassess what's going on. And for me, it's really valuable because I have to, like, look at bitcoin and be like, wow, yeah, drew down 50%. Like, did I misvalue it? Does it not do the stuff I want it to do? And I have to, like, go through the whole existential thing and be like, no, I can still pay whoever I want. Like, I can still send it wherever I need to pay. Join still works. Like, you can still create privacy if needed. Like it's doing everything that I think it's going to do. And then there's like a redoubling of like, oh yeah, okay, this, this is actually how the cycles work. In the process, I could try to call the top and sell. You know, like some people do really well with trading. I don't. I suck at it. Like, I'll more likely lose a lot more money. Yeah. And so it's a lot easier of a strategy just to, to hold. And some people are really good at trading and great for them. Like, I like market dynamics and it's great that there's probably a lot of people that were looking at Bitcoin at 125 and they're like, that's too much that now it's at what, 68 or something that they'll be like, yeah, like maybe now is a good time for me to get in. So to me, it's all the dynamics of how bitcoin works. It's all the fundamentals that make it operable are still there. It's just whether or not the rest of the world will catch up to it.
- [13:44]
Walker America
Circling back on the satanic pedophiles. It is just like it seems that there's all of this, this tsunami of FUD being thrown at bitcoin right now and all of it is just the most mid curve slop you could imagine. Like the whole Epstein and you know, hijacked bitcoin and all the. And it's like all these b cashers and, and xr.
- [14:05]
Eric Cason
We gotta throw Adam back under the bus now and we got to talk about all these people. Oh my God. It's.
- [14:12]
Walker America
It's just, it's so tiresome.
- [14:14]
Eric Cason
Like. Yeah, yeah. It turns out that like Epstein was deeply involved in a lot of academic projects. That's kind like a lot of people don't seem to understand that like this is an explicit part of laundering. It's not like everything he touched he automatically made evil. It's that like he touched a lot of legitimate stuff intentionally in order to be able to launder the rest of the shit. And like that's, this is literally how laundering works. That's why you have like a legitimate business to pair with your illegitimate business. It's like mix them up together. But trying to address again, this sort of comes back to the same thing with bitcoin and why I'm just kind of realizing it's just kind of stupidity on a whole is more of the problem. And a lot of people don't want to use logic as a rigorous format. That is the way that they understand the truth as opposed to their own biases. And I'm as susceptible to it as anybody else. And I have to stop and really ask myself to work through stuff from first principles. But I, I, I don't know it, it's yeah, for me the most disturbing thing coming about right now is realizing how many people not not only do they not necessarily understand what's going on, but that like they'll have very significant opinions that aren't well supported and it's just fucking sucks. It's a bummer to try to deal with them and their opinionated nature. Meanwhile, people who like know 10 times more than them and like should have a hundred times more assurance, usually are a thousand. Which means that like they're not going to have the same loudness that other.
- [15:53]
Walker America
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- [19:50]
Eric Cason
This goes, I mean like that's through.
- [19:52]
Walker America
All levels, you know what I mean?
- [19:53]
Eric Cason
Yeah. And like, like the consequences is like most people in the world are mid curve and most people in the world are going to group together under that same affect, which kind of explains everything that's going on. And I don't know, like I, for quite a while I felt stuck at a crossroads of like do I try to actually push and make a bigger and more significant difference in the world? Or like do I just kind of fade out into the forest and live my own private life? And it's difficult because like I, you know, we've talked about the Orange Party for a while and like, I'd love to see something like that come to fruition, but like, I do, I want to try to do something like that. It's like a lot of time and energy and effort and, and more than anything, like, it's, it's difficult to deal with normies and like, a lot of people believe that only two political parties can exist at all. And like, trying to push up against that is really difficult. But at the same time, like, we're entering into a really interesting and new era with how significant and powerful AI is. And like, it's becoming more and more obvious as each day passes that like, this is essentially alien technology at this point in time. And like, it's starting to, it's starting to get to a place where, like, it, it very clearly can kind of challenge our intellect in very novel and different ways. Like, I'm not sure if you followed much, but like, I think the head of anthropic safety just left and was pretty much like, yeah, I'm gonna go into hiding in the uk and so like, it. It's really interesting because I, I feel like this is a real place that we can radicalize and change things in a very special and important direction for humanity on a whole, if we choose to. But looking at what the masses are out there doing and that, you know, like, a lot of this, A lot of this computational power is being used to make cat videos, which, like, no, hate on cat videos, but like, the, the fact that that's kind of the preoccupation is disturbing in some ways. So like, I don't know, it's. I think there is an opportunity to make a huge impact right now. And I also think that's one reason why people like streaming and talking to people online is realizing that like there's. There's a possibility for something very radical and different. But the question is, is do we want to challenge ourselves to try to bring that forth.
- [22:15]
Walker America
Do you think? On the, on the AI front, like, one of my worries just from some of the stuff that I'm exposed to is like, boy, as you said, most people are just using this to generate cat videos. On the other side of this, you've got governments and very large corporations who are realizing, wow, this is a like Panopticon enabling totalitarian's wet dream from a surveillance state perspective, just being able to analyze and large, large data sets in a way that we have not been able to with an efficiency that we have not been able to before. But it's also like, there's always a dualism to it, right? Anything. It's like with Bitcoin, yeah. It can be used by bad people and it can be used by good people. It can be used by anyone. It's a tool. It's like a gun, it's like a car. Right. Except in this case, it's like a massive data processing engine. Where are you at with this in terms of sort of like near term potential versus long term potential with AI Specifically in the sense that, okay, you know, we've already established that most people just are plugged in, right? So they're not going to use something as necessarily a tool for him. They're going to generate cat videos. Nothing wrong with that. But that's like, that's what they're going to use it for. Meanwhile, people who are paying attention and who may or may not have nefarious ends will use these things to try and usher in a totalitarian global Panopticon. Like does do the tools that AI provides us offer us also an asymmetric defense against that or is the asymmetry in a different direction? You know what I mean?
- [23:51]
Eric Cason
Yeah, no, no, that asymmetry is definitely biased towards the individual. And like, that's one of the reasons that you can see that like open source models are very quickly closing the gap between frontier capacities and the open source models. Same thing with novel new ways of creating tokenization schemes in order to make them much more efficient and smaller. So I believe that this is one of the most radical tools that has ever been given to individuals because now a lone individual with an open source model can go and do research that just a year ago would have taken large corporations. That would have been their cutting edge technology.
- [24:35]
Walker America
Right?
- [24:35]
Eric Cason
So like, I think, and like short term and long term are related to each other because like, these are highly efficient at, you know, data analysis. It can make the Panopticon all the better. But with that being said, the same thing, like tools and techniques to obfuscate that information. Data allows for you to throw out way more flack and like in the cat and mouse game, I think this was one of the things that was asserted in Snow Crash was like the idea that like you can essentially pump out all this extra information that like, without, without anything being verified, you can't really know anything. And so I think like the amount of like slop that can get pumped out to kind of throw flak to make the information analysis more difficult is really powerful. In addition to like, and this is sort of our thesis at VORA is that like people are going to realize like you're oil and like you generate data and like that is your, like that's your crude oil and like you being able to synthesize that on your own to make plastics, refined gasoline, like, whatever, like if you own that data, you can do that and you can do it way more efficiently and substantially for yourself. But like you need to own it. And so like, I think inevitably it sort of concludes into that direction. But then again, like, most people are idiots and they would rather use something that is very simple. Even if it's selling their soul, they would rather do that. So like, it's really interesting, like I'm going to be intrigued to see where it goes. And ultimately, like, because I think these models have been open source, because I do think we have Bitcoin. To me, like this is all ultimately sort of a brinkmanship towards individual liberty itself. Because I think at some point people start to realize like there are two options. You can live in the Panopticon or not, there's not really an in between. And I think when people realize that living in the Panopticon might be comfortable to a point in time, but you can essentially get red marked at any point in time and process for elimination, I think a lot of people are going to realize, well, if that's a possibility, I probably shouldn't make that one that's available in the first place. So long term, I think people eventually conclude that they need to not only own their own data, but not like, I think there's a potential for like a totally new form of the Internet where instead of us having these large corporations with data siloed in them, that people own their own data and that like a new structure of the Internet gets built on top of that.
- [27:07]
Walker America
Do you want to talk about VORA a little bit maybe? And I'm not sure how much you has already been disclosed publicly in terms of these things, but I mean, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about it. Where, where are you guys at right now in terms of what you can talk about publicly?
- [27:24]
Eric Cason
Yeah, so we've been working on our alpha for quite a while. We've had to revamp it a few different times. We, we have a working, we have an open source model. It's working. There's two main components to it. We have something that's called the Guardian, which is, it's really a local AI that lives privately on your computer and it's designed to like be housed and Dwell there. That's like where that information lives. And it never touches the open Internet. And that's kind of the big thing is like there's a moat in between it and the open Internet. You then have another section of the AI that's called the Explorer and that's designed to like go out on the Internet, find information, search for it. And Jesse has very thoughtfully designed a system that allows for this information to flow in between. So from, from the Guardian to the Explorer and to the Explorer from, from the Guardian, the information can be swapped but it's never direct and so it's always sort of filtered with an intermediary so that you can't get prompt injected. Your private information can't be compromised because there's something in AI called the lethal trifecta of AI. I think Simon Wilson has it on his blog. It's really good, explains it in detail. But more or less in the lethal trifecta, if you have any of these three parameters, which I think is like, I'd butcher it if I try to say it online. So go look it up if you want to. But it's that any of these three parameters, when you intermix them, they introduce inherent dangers of being able to like exfiltrate data or compromise stuff. So you have to be very thoughtful about how you organize an AI and I'm sure you've been following cloudbot stuff and cloudbot is a great example of when you don't obey any of these sort of security parameters and how well you can get totally fucked. So in a lot of ways, like we're trying to build really like a security enabled kind of cloudbot in particular ways so that like you can give it all of your personal information. And you know that cloudbot isn't just going to take that and go dump it out on the open Internet or vice versa. It's not just going to kind of randomly take whatever it looks up on the Internet and prompt inject you to then be able to exfiltrate your data. So we have a piece of hardware that it runs pretty well on and the idea is ultimately we want to get, give you the hardware. You can run your own local inference, all the information lives there privately. You can go explore the Internet to gather any new information, pull it in and slowly over time, like this is particularly. The Guardian is going to get to know you a lot better. It's going to know your habits, it's going to know your information, it's going to be able to read your emails, it's going to see your calendar. And from this, it's going to essentially become kind of your primary personal assistant. And from that I'll spawn up a bunch of smaller agents that, like, maybe you'll have one that runs business, maybe you'll have one that does health stuff for you, maybe you'll have one that does finances. And from all of this, it becomes more and more personalized. And through you owning your own data, you can give it more and more private information. You can do therapy with it, whatever. And this really is kind of why bitcoiners need to own this and have. Because we're the only people with an ethos that really understands why privacy and security is so paramount to it. Because this information is going to be just as valuable as your Bitcoin private key. And so it needs to be thought of and protected in the same way. And you can only do that if not only are you running the information locally, but on another level there is robust backup features. And also there's a network that can actually. The idea is eventually different. Essentially, VOR boxes will be able to talk to each other and be able to use homophonic encryption schemes. So I can back up a chunk of your data, the rest of the network can back up chunks of your data, and recoverability becomes this process of where you don't know what data of mine you're hosting. It's kind of part of a larger network and recoverability, so that if somebody steals my box, that's always a possibility. And it's not on Vora. It's part of the larger CT network that operates on top of that. And so if I invoke the recovery protocol, I zap you, however much it is, to download all of that information. I get the information downloaded, I can decrypt it, and I now have all of my information back. So it's still a ways off. It's going slower than we'd want to, but we really think it's important to get it right and make sure that at no point in this process will we not only fuck something up and make it so that your private data can be exfiltrated, but that once we do launch that it kind of can't be stopped. Like, once you own the box, the data and the information, like, we have no way to stop you from kind of asking it whatever you want. So.
- [32:06]
Walker America
Do you think. So I've got a couple of questions there. On the one side, you mentioned the whole claudebot thing, and that has been obviously very in vogue lately. Do you think there's quite a few sort of, let's say, security risks that folks aren't considering with that with ever 100%.
- [32:24]
Eric Cason
I mean, like watching a few YouTube.
- [32:26]
Walker America
Videos and spinning these things up and then hooking it into everything, like it just seems like, boy, what could go wrong, Right?
- [32:31]
Eric Cason
Yeah. And like there's plenty of examples already out there of, you know, people mismanaging it and it fucking them over in different ways, you know, and it's one of those things. I think a lot of people are unaware of the security risks up until they present themselves. So go out there, watch YouTube videos that you want about it, you'll see the problems that it has. And for us it's been highly validating for our thesis. Like, people, people want these private AI boxes that they can kind of do whatever they want with. The problem is, is like if you don't have robust security parameters in place, it can become very problematic, which is why a lot of people are just buying a brand new Mac Mini or whatever and loading it up on there, which really, like, you don't need that much power for them. You can just wipe an old MacBook, get a VPS set up and like, you're good to go. So.
- [33:20]
Walker America
Just in terms of what you mentioned about the way that within Vora specifically you would be able to have this network with backup infrastructure and all of that, do you envision this then just become, I mean, this is. You're creating a network of nodes essentially, right?
- [33:34]
Eric Cason
Yeah, yeah. And like the, it's really interesting because like it demands the Lightning network, it demands Noster and it demands Bitcoin all to be a part of this kind of stack, you know. And like, I think it's really like Noster is kind of the most important one in my opinion, because like now there becomes an ability to be able to like have a web of trust with various people in it that have their own voice sort of plugged into them in various ways, you know, and like, we're still just the very beginning of all of this. And so we're going to call this the CT network, but ultimately there's nothing terribly special about it outside of that. It's really just a homophonic encryption scheme. I can locate your data vis a vis Nostr and I can pay you for my data with its encrypted ID based off of the Lightning network's infrastructure. So it becomes pretty simple to do this stuff. And I think we need to really take a step back and realize lightning is relatively immature. I think the white paper was A decade old. Old maybe, and then NOSTR is Even, what, like 3 years old or something like that? Maybe even less. And like, these are very important core infrastructures towards this kind of wider, decentralized ideal that's been thought of for, I mean, a very long time. And so the fact that they're all sort of slowly coming into fruition in their own way is really important and powerful. And with that, like, there's probably more stuff on the horizon that AI is going to help us with in really powerful ways. You know, like, I won't be surprised if through an intermixing of all of this information that like, eventually there becomes like a wider community AI that has encrypted weights and parameters to kind of start as like a substrate from how you can, you know, spin up your own open source, like VORA instances you want.
- [35:24]
Walker America
So I mean, I love what you guys are doing because, like, I, I know you and I've only gotten to know Jesse a little bit so far, but you guys are like, you're hardcore fucking dudes and you're fundamentally like anti authoritarian, anti state, anti totalitarianism, or to put you not in an anti light, you are pro human freedom and flourishing at your core. And that's why I'm so glad that people like you are building these things. I'm curious too. And somebody had just asked this on Noster on the live stream, if you're listening to this later, it was Soap Miner said, since most people are midwits and plugged into the Matrix, will we even be able, oh, now I can't quite see this. Will even be able to help them escape? Or will this take generations to fight for freedom? And I want to go on top of that a little bit more. Which would be like this place that we're at right now in space time or time space, it feels really important and it feels like there's a limited window where we can get things right and if we don't, we're going to be in big fucking trouble. Just in terms of human freedom, in terms of human flourishing. So like, where are you at with that? How does that just fit into your thesis? Like, how does that inform what you guys are doing at vora? How does it inform how you are just generally living your life? And I mean, or am I off base? Like, is it actually just kind of same as it ever was? This is always the feeling that everyone has and I'm just kind of like falling into that same trap or like, is this time different from just like the cyclical Rhythms of history, perspective.
- [36:58]
Eric Cason
Well, I mean, I think there's a bit of, like, the. The two entangled in a particular way. Like, I think anybody who's rode through a particular zeitgeist at a point in time might have this special feeling. And maybe for them it's very true and sincere because, like, you know, World War II or World War I could have gone very different ways. Yeah. So, like, I think if you're in the zeitgeist, it can have that particular feeling. With that being said, I think watching the acceleration of technology. Watching what? I mean, the fact that, like, you and me are a world apart, talking right now, like, like, this is magical alien technology that, like, go back just 30 years ago, people would be like, what the absolute is going on? You know, and go back 300 years. They'll be like, you're obviously witches that we need to burn alive immediately. The fact that, like, the idea of burning anybody alive to us is like, whoa, that's too radical. Whereas 300 years ago, people would be like, yeah, of course you burn witches alive. Like, what else are you supposed to do? Well, we could drown them. Like, that's like a good idea.
- [38:03]
Walker America
We'll see if. To see if they float. If they float, they're a witch. Then you have to burn them. So, like, yeah, exactly. Perfect system.
- [38:09]
Eric Cason
But like, that. That actually points to. To sort of, again, the same sort of eugenics project that has now made us all homogenized people is that, like, people in antiquity believed that, like, evil was like a real thing. Like, you had to fight and then, like, fighting it viciously and with force was like, of necessity. Whereas now today you have, like, a lot of woo hippie. Like, no, like evil. Like, what do you mean? Like, God isn't real? Like, you know, you know, like, it's a very particular influence and affect that has occurred to the world. That. That I personally think is really dangerous because, like, I think evil is real, that we do have to fight it with force. And our unwillingness to do that is part of why we now have a giant cabal of pedophiles that, like, essentially run the world. And with that being said, Vora specifically came about from an instance of Jesse and I being in a very deep dialogue specifically about, hey, first of all, what's my book Crypto Sovereignty about? Why is bitcoin so important? Is it possible to truly achieve self sovereignty in the digital age? Does bitcoin offer that? Can we do it with the current kind of hardware that we have? And what's the instance of AI within this. And as we kind of went deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole of this problem, we realized that like AI was kind of quintessential to it because like, if you can't self host your own AI, being able to self host your own Bitcoin is going to be all the more difficult because eventually these things sort of merge up. So that's why we ultimately pivoted to why we needed to start with AI. And eventually this becomes a hardcore vault for kind of all of your cryptographic key information. And at the end of the day, like, philosophy is first and foremost what leads us. And really it's sort of the question of like, what is, what does it mean to be in the digital age? Like, what does it mean that we have access to these technologies? What does it mean that as human beings, you and I can interface in this way? And also what does it mean that there are these greater governmental powers that have radical panoptic capacities to sort of monitor, surveil and limit us in very potential particular ways. And so for us, ultimately, this business is about being able to push philosophy first and foremost to its rightful place as a first philosophy of how we choose to live and create in the world. And so for us, VORA is the abstantiation of that and asserting it in the world and saying we deserve to have compute in a way that we really control, that we know and understand its weights and parameters, and that I'm free and entitled to talk to my AI, give it any information I want, and really have the volition on my own to choose what I do or don't ask without limits.
- [40:51]
Walker America
What I think is really interesting is, and also I'd just like to say, hell yeah to that. What I think is interesting and just not at all surprising, but something that's worth mentioning. And I try to beat this drum a lot because most people still seem not to understand this. But the big AI companies want more regulation. They want more government interference, they want more government control. And they do it under the guise of, you know, Sam Altman being there, being. It's, this is so dangerous. We need more regulation. We can't have these AI models running amok, you know, we can't have that. But what do they really want? They want an expansion of their moat. They want an expansion of their regulatory moat. They do not want these things to be able to get out there into the general public for anybody to be tinkering. But I feel like they're kind of fucked right now because the genie's Already out of the bottle. Like the, the open source, like the fact that these things are getting open sourced means that they've actually, these big companies have already lost to a certain extent. They just don't quite know it yet. Would you agree with that?
- [41:54]
Eric Cason
Absolutely. I mean I, I also think that's part of the approach that they're sort of taking is because if they say give us the control only frontier models are the ones that businesses can use. Anybody using an open source model or a Chinese model is not allowed and anybody that's caught using one is illegal. And also goes to show like the brilliance of the CCCP's approach of that like from, you know, I think this has been known for more than a decade that like their approach to AI was to open source everything to make sure that it collapsed. The American capitalist model, which seems to be highly effective and also in a lot of ways I kind of think we're at an end game. Because these are open source, they're highly efficient on a bunch of levels. And this essentially drops the cost to doing not only software development, but graphics development, all sorts of things to zero. Which seems to fulfill the Marxian ideal of what happens at the end of capitalism where everything outstrips itself to create a classless society. Now getting into that classless society, this seems to be not only highly dangerous and contentious but like creates a lot of tertiary problems. But I think the game of software itself is sort of at an end game. So like I, I very much believe probably sometime in the next three to five years like all of these frontier AI companies go belly up because not only is the cost of like they're dumping all this time, energy and effort into compute, but like the cost of compute for this stuff is going to drop substant as these models sort of self feedback into themselves and become more and more efficient, find better ways of token usage. In addition to people being able to like have these, these different collaborative models that like hopefully VORA will have to where like you'll be able to get on nostr, you'll be able to rent a little bit of compute from other people if you want to run big projects or simulations. And instead of that going to a company like Amazon that has a huge data server somewhere, it just goes out to all the people that have a VORA device at home. And yeah, it'll, it'll split up the instance between 100 different computers over the course of several hours and you get your simulation back in, you know, four or five hours and you made five bucks and so did 100 other people because I was able to buy that from you directly.
- [44:21]
Walker America
I actually, I like, I love that idea too. Just from a more fundamental premise of that should be the way that quote, the Internet works, right? This was always sort of the initial idea of the Internet pioneers was to have it be this way was not to have it be all siloed into aws east, you know, and aws east goes down. It's like, well, okay, I guess nothing works now like cloud flares down. Oh, guess, guess we're all now can't do Internet stuff for today, but we've gotten so far and again, so much of that comes back to the regulatory moat that these companies have been able to create. And you see this as well across all of the, like all the new compliance with all these digital ID laws or the, you know, age appropriate ID laws, whether it's in the UK or Australia or name any other nation or Discord just said they're going to start adding like they did that kind of voluntarily, I guess start adding in age verification via id. And what does it all come back to? It comes back to creating a cost of compliance that is too hard for startups to, they can't compete with that because they don't have the money yet to be able to compete with that cost of compliance. Whereas the incumbents have, the massive legal teams have the massive budgets. That's the cost of doing business for them is dealing with this compliance and they want that. And I think people like are asleep at the wheel. That's whenever I hear these news stories about like, well, we're just going to institute ID checks on this online platform. But it's, don't worry guys, it's just to keep the kids safe. And it's like, well, how would you like this wrapped? You want it wrapped as, you know, protect the kids or counterterrorism? Because it's all a method of control.
- [45:54]
Eric Cason
And meanwhile the Epstein stuff is out there and it's very clear that people like Bill Clinton and other people were very implicit in it. So like, how much do you actually give a shit about helping kids in a meaningful way? Like maybe just maybe you're actually lying to me for your own benefit. But no, that's too far. And like the, like this is one of the things where like I, I have a lot of empathy towards people is like I get that like you're such a simpleton that like the idea of there being wickedness out in the world and that maybe there actually is a cabel of people that are engaged in ritual child sacrifice in order to try to get the powers of moulage. Like, I. I get. Like, that's a horrific and disgusting thought, and it's really difficult to try to swallow. But, like, what if that actually is true? And, like, what does it mean now that you believe these people when they come to you and tell you that they're trying to implement age verification to protect the kids? Meanwhile, they're actually taking advantage of them in the background? Like, is it possible that evil people would lie for their own benefits? And that instead of you accepting that evil is actually a real thing in the world, that. And that evil people would then lie to you to take advantage of it, that you can't accept that that even exists in the world, which is a beautiful idea. Like, I really appreciate that. Like, you see the world as rainbow and sunshine and that we're all. We're all equal good people just trying our best. But maybe there's actually some people out there that would be totally cool with cutting the heart out of a living child and sacrificing it to Molach because they believe that would give them very real powers. I get it's a fucking crazy idea, but, like, let's just try it on for a minute. And if that is true, would these people be willing to lie to you? Maybe. I don't know. But it's really difficult because, like. And this is why I always try to present people to Hannah, a dent in the banality of evils. Like, look, like, you can't reason with evil. And, like, there's no point where it's like, they went to Eichmann. They're like, hey, you're evil. And he was like, oh, shit, you're right.
- [47:58]
Walker America
Like, I shouldn't kill all these people.
- [48:00]
Eric Cason
This is like a terrible thing. No, the whole time he was like, I'm a good guy. I'm following the rules. Like, I did what I was told. If people don't do what they're told, society collapses. And I was like, look at this motherfucker. He, like, killed millions of people. And he believes that he's the good guy. Is it possible all this shit's going on again? Maybe. Is it possible that all these people are the same people in positions of government and power who believe that when they tell you shit like blowing up kids in Yemen is for the safety of our republic? I don't know. Oh, I'm gone. Like, wasn't me that dropped out. Or was it him that dropped out? I don't know. Here I'll get on signal here. If it's just me streaming. Welcome to my individual podcast. I guess this is where we're starting the premiere. Anyways, if this is just me alone, I would like to say that I love you all. Thanks for wanting to listen to me diatribe about bullshit. Okay. See? So am I still live? I guess I might be. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think I am live. So thanks for joining me. Walker's having technical difficulties. I'm. I'm. I'm streaming on my own here. It's still recording. I don't know, man. Like, it's. I think we need to. I mean, this Orange Party thing I'm. I really want to do, I think it's really important. I think if we asserted it and tried it, we'd win. Maybe it's like a decade down the road, but I don't know. It scares me. It's difficult. Yeah. But I think that might just be in our fate, you know? And text Walker and see if he's coming back. But let me get on primal here. I'll take some of your questions if need be. All right. Walker's coming back. Don't worry. His Internet sucks. Ours isn't so bad here, so. But this is our studio at. At San Francisco Presidio Bitcoin. We're located here in the Presidio. It's a fun place. Some of you should come visit at some point in time. Yeah. And I'm kind of thinking maybe I'll even do my own podcast out of here. I need to start recording my audio book for crypto sovereignty. So I think I'm going to be using the space to do that because, yeah, a lot of people have made the request for an audiobook. It would be good for me to reread my own book after it's been, like, three years since I published it. But, yeah, I'm looking forward to doing that. Should start some interesting dialogue. And, yeah, I think as bitcoiners, we need to kind of understand, like, the. The future is something that we can really assert and try to make a meaningful change. But if. I mean, kind of truthfully, if we're going to try to do this, like, really nice, kind way of being like, oh, please accept bitcoin. We love Blink. Oh, trying to compromise, like, I don't. I don't think that's going to work. I think we need to be more assertive. I think we need to communalize ourselves greater. I'd love to see more circular economies popping up. We're seeing that happen in more places like El Salvador, which I just got back from El Salvador. So I was pretty enthusiastic about what I saw. I was surprised and impressed. Like, I thought. I thought it was going to be a passing thing, and I think I'm seeing that, like, they're. They're really trying to sincerely develop it down there. But more than anything else, I'm seeing that education and not. Not like, I think El Salvador is doing a great job. I think education on a whole and really getting people to understand why they need bitcoin is really important, but, you know, it's very difficult. Oh, yeah, yeah. Walker's just saying Quincy has happened right during the satanic pedo talk. Yeah, it's true. Wait, just let him know I'm in here. All right. All right. So, yeah, I was surprised and impressed with what was going on in El Salvador. I think we need more of that. I think we need people encouraging each other to accept bitcoin. I think we need to be using bitcoin as a way to, frankly, really engage in meaningful tax evasion. Yeah. And ultimately, like, we. We need to fight back at some point in time. And at some point in time, this becomes a real fight. And it's difficult. You know, like, a lot of us have vulnerabilities that we have to come to terms with, and that trying to fight the state on its turf is really difficult, particularly if you, like, own home, have a family, or any of these things. So I don't know. That's part of what's made me hesitate from all of this is like, I. I don't want to. I don't want to put my own livelihood at risk. I don't. I don't want to risk my family, but I think a lot of us feel that way. And it's also one of those things. If we don't make this choice now, we have to make this choice later down the line. So, like, what do we do if that's what happens? Yep. Yep. Okay. So, yes, I am. Okay, cool. Yeah. So I didn't know if this was live. I thought it was live. It looks live, so it says live, so I'm going to keep acting like it's live.
- [53:42]
Walker America
Yeah.
- [53:42]
Eric Cason
Another other. On other fronts, stuff with Vora is going really great. If you're interested in my. My book Crypto Sovereignty, I'm going to be presenting that at Shitcoin. I mean, Bitcoin Vegas. I call it Shitcoin Vegas because there's a lot of shitcoding that goes on there, and it's really tragic and sad. And it's also the place that has the highest bitcoin signal. I think that this is one of the places that as bitcoiners we've sort of made a mistake of doing like pro bitcoin thing. I really like that in particularly in Europe between bitcoin Riga and bitcoin Prague. Both of them has made have made the choice to stay kind of bitcoin maximalist oriented versus bitcoin Vegas, which I feel like is of the pro bitcoin subset. And not to say that there's anything necessarily wrong with pro bitcoin, but I find that like it allows for the cozing up of a lot of shitcoiners and a lot of nihilists and kind of shitty people. And I think that that's been really problematic to a lot of us. And that's kind of where I think greater resistance needs to be, is kind of calling out the scammers for where they're at. It's also problematic and difficult with some of our own inter feuding, if you will. I think I've made it clear kind of my own position on some of that stuff. I'm happy and willing to talk more about it. Walker said he's going to be back relatively soon. But yeah, I think for me, one of my next big steps, recording my audiobook, Crypto sovereignty, if any are interested in like having a dialogue with me about a particular chapter, I'd love to do that. I actually have a chapter from like two years ago that me and fractal and Crypt recorded together. It was really interesting, great dialogue. But to me, like at the end of the day, bitcoin to me is of the political. And when I say of the political, I mean like capital T, capital P, the political. So like what the founding fathers did, like what they did was part of the political. Like they weren't engaging in politics at all. They were engaging in the political because they were saying, what does it mean that we're human beings and like we have an ability and a right to actually organize ourselves politically. That like, this isn't something that comes from the manifest of. From God to the sovereign. And very much for today, like we, we behave like the United States has some sort of legitimacy just based on the fact that like they own the apparatus of governance today. And I think there's a real opportunity for us, particularly with this technology. Not just bitcoin, not just AI, not just no, but kind of all of these things together. And more importantly that the ethos that comes with it, there's a chance that we could change things, that we could actually make things better. I don't know about you, but one of the things that I feel kind of the greatest amount of resentment towards my parents generation is that things feel worse for us. And I think most people between the age brackets of 25 and 40 would agree with that statement. We, we were given a short end of the stick. We were given fiat inflation, we were given higher housing prices, higher education, higher healthcare. Like across the board shit is harder for us. And that wasn't true for our parents or their parents. And it's not to blame them, but it's to. To really point out that like there is something structurally and inherently wrong and it could be different, could be radically different. But until we choose to address the fact that both the Republican party and the Democrat party are radically corrupt beyond recovery, and until we fundamentally reject both of them as structures of being capable of governing us, nothing will actually change. And that's what, that's what I want the Orange Party for. I've kind of thought about starting like an Orange Party podcast and just making that like a, A waypoint for it, I guess. But again, it's difficult, you know, like I have all my own very real human struggles. Yeah, that hold me back in a bunch of ways. But with that being said, at some point we have to take on enough responsibility and kind of set that stuff aside and say, you know what, whether, whether or not I believe in the possibilities of this, I still have to make an attempt towards it. And I think that that's important that we try to do as a people. And when I say people like, I don't mean American, but I mean like people that love freedom, liberty, choice, the ability and capacity to be able to actually make a substantial and meaningful change for ourselves and our future and our children's futures. And I think there's a new sort of ethos that's getting formed and created that has came out of the cypherpunk movement that's becoming larger and more important and more robust than sort of the smallness that the cypherpunk movement developed from. And I think it's because, well, one, the Internet kind of touches everything now, but I think two is that as it touches everything, we realize that like, if we don't take on these same ideals and values of sort of taking on what the sort of radical libertarianism and sort of, in my opinion, it's sort of like an anarcho communist synthesis in a lot of ways, syndicalism is kind of a pretty good word for it, whether most people don't know. But one of the most powerful movements politically at the turn of the 20th century was something called syndicalism. It eventually became fascism through national syndicalism. But all this is like a pretty important development where syndicalism is the idea of just like people sort of syndicalizing themselves. Classically this was done through industrial labor industry. So like if we all were all plumbers, we would syndicalize our plumbing unions together to make like one big union and eventually went from plumbing to like maybe like all plumbers and electricians and I don't know, like, like any other kind of trade union movement. And it becomes a bigger and bigger and bigger union until eventually it comprises kind of all of laborers. But I think at this point we're like past identifying as people who sell our labor and I think it is now about being Internet users, which as a class, that seems kind of absurd, right? Like who doesn't use the Internet. Exactly. Very similar to like at the turn of the 20th century, like who didn't sell their labor. Very few people at some point off to do like a big long conversation about the development of anarchism, communism, capitalism, sort of development of all these things since they all kind of have their organ origin at heigl. So like it's a big long and robust discussion, but we don't need to have that today. And so I think like we need to syndicalize ourselves as Internet users and realize that being users of the Internet, we sort of need to assert our Internet user rights, if you will. And we also need like an Internet users union, something that is more or less about like we can all belong to it. Maybe it's even a membership based thing. I don't know. Like eventually this comprises of billions of people. Right. But that through us collectivizing ourselves around like very agreeable principles, very much like I think most people in the United States today would agree with the Bill of Rights, like the, the rights that are enumerated in there and what it means to be an American. Like it's a, it's kind of a low bar to achieve, but I think we can get something similar for the Internet and we need to insist on those rights and values being extended to kind of everybody that uses the Internet. Like I don't really, I don't care if you're Chinese or South African or Cambodian. Like you probably have the same rights, needs and demands as I do. And we should probably try to create something together to ensure those rights. Because I mean, I. It's not future, I imagine, but maybe at some point in time I got. I gotta flee to some other country because of how bad stuff gets here in America, or vice versa, as most of human history has told. You know, like, I. I think America is a pretty great place. I really want to protect the ability and capacity for people that are in more difficult circumstances to come here. And I really hope that the Internet can be a bridge that we can use for that. But again, like, this is a large and substantial undertaking that like, I don't know, I'm like, I'm kind of tired. Like I. I want to contribute as much as I can, but trying to count on me to like, move. Move the boulder forward in a capacity or context like this, that shit's hard, man. But I don't know, like, with the encouragement of some of you and the ability to go on this journey together, you know, like, maybe we find a solidarity like that Frodo and Sam had where we can make this long journey to destroy the. The one ring of power to the volcano at Mordor. But yeah, it's gonna be a long journey. Speaking of long journeys, what the happened to Walker? I think. I hope he'll come back. He said he's restarting his computer, but we'll see. Outside of that, you know, like, I've been spending a lot of time and energy really thinking about, like, what. What does it mean to create a dwelling for ourselves in the digital age? It's what I'm working on right now. It's based off of a. A Heidegger piece called Thinking Building Dwelling. It's a really good piece, but he talks about how like the. The nature of man is to dwell. Oh, great, thank God. I was about to lecture on thinking, building, dwelling from Heidegger and whatever. No. I leave for five minutes and I.
- [64:15]
Walker America
Hear you talking about unionizing, you know, and I'm like, geez, you know, I.
- [64:19]
Eric Cason
Well, it's like it's syndicalized, which is like a number of unions together. But you know, I think, God, you're bad one after to explain Heidegger to people anymore.
- [64:30]
Walker America
But I appreciate you. I am. I'm not sure what happened. I'm not sure if it's, you know, the wife watching Netflix or the satanic pedophiles, but.
- [64:38]
Eric Cason
Satanic pedophiles up there.
- [64:41]
Walker America
The amazing thing is that while apparently I was down, I was still able to watch it on Noster on my phone, which is. Which is Kind of amazing. So I felt like I was still here with you. I thought they were. They were good rants. Are you going to do an audiobook for. For Crypto Sovereignty?
- [64:57]
Eric Cason
Yeah, that's. That was kind of why I got set up in the studio here today, was because I wanted to do the stream here, but also I wanted to get set up to start. Start doing that because like it's. The book has been out for almost three years now, so it's kind of time to get started on that point. I feel like it'll encourage more people to kind of engage in this dialogue that I'm interested in. And yeah, a lot of people don't know how to read, so read. Reading it to them is helpful.
- [65:23]
Walker America
Did I. You. First of all, you're going to read it yourself, right? Because like.
- [65:28]
Eric Cason
Yeah, I feel like you. That's why it hasn't happened yet. So.
- [65:31]
Walker America
Okay, dude, I'm not going. Audiobooks are. They are not easy. It is a shocking amount of work. But also I feel like you reading it in your like, your tone and your voice and you knowing the material better than like, obviously anyone else is kind of like crucial for this particular book. You know what I mean?
- [65:49]
Eric Cason
Yeah. So like, I'm kind of thinking like I'm going to read a chapter and then I don't know how I'm going to structure it. But like, I then kind of want to do like a secondary reading where I'm like, all right, I mentioned like all this shit that I have to kind of go into. So like in the second paragraph I say this thing that's a reference to this and then I reference it because of blah, blah, blah, because there's a bunch of like almost every other paragraph I have something like that tucked in there. And so I guess on some level I sort of knew I was going to do this in the future and wanted to explain it. But also that's what a lot of philosophy is, is like having these secondary readings to like unpack all of this in a particular way. So.
- [66:26]
Walker America
Well, I'm stoked for you're going to end up having like a 50 hour audi book though. But like, I'm totally here for it, you know?
- [66:33]
Eric Cason
Yeah. And like I'm trying to figure out like, do I. Do I kind of keep it like just the raw reading on like chapter one or like, do I have like my extended version where I read the first paragraph and I go, okay, like I just mentioned this thing. Here's all the subset. All right, I'm gonna like move on to the second paragraph and like keep doing that. So I don't know, we'll. We'll see how it all works out. I'm hoping the AI recording software might be good enough that like, I can kind of do it all one in the same, but we'll see.
- [67:02]
Walker America
Yeah, it's. It's going to be a, it's going to be a fun journey for you. So I was, I was listening to a number of the things you said there and you brought up the Orange Party as well because, like. And also shout out to average Gary for building out a. Just like apropos of nothing, built out a website for it. If you go to. I think it's, I think it's at the orange party.org but he literally took, he took like the one. Yeah, it's theorangeparty.org or the orangeparty.org I just say the now for, for a lot of things. It's probably. It's the bitcoin podcast, but he took that conversation that you and I had with American Hodl and just basically got AI to like, okay, synthesize this, put it into like a party format. And it's like a really nice clean site too. I think there, there is almost a need, you know, you, I heard you brought up as well, like, okay, maybe you just like start a podcast around this and I think it's actually beneficial. Like, who was. I forget if it was Dick Greaser or Rod Palmer, one of the Bugle guys who, when they were on my show, they were like, you know, the. It used to be the man in the arena. Now it's the man in the studio. Like the man in the studio is the man in the arena now. Which, which I thought was like. It was, it was, it was kind of brilliant. They're being a little tongue in cheek, but also not at all tongue in cheek because I think that that's actually meaningful. Like media has. It's like. It's always. It's a form of control, but it's also a form of liberation.
- [68:23]
Eric Cason
Right.
- [68:24]
Walker America
It has a dualism to it. Like a lot of things. And throughout history, there's never been a time where we had a this like many to many or one to many, like distribution model. It's always been like one. It's always been one to many and it's always been hyper controlled. It's always been just working hand in glove with governments. It's always been. Or the church, depending on how far back you go.
- [68:48]
Eric Cason
Right?
- [68:48]
Walker America
It's always been a method of control. And obfuscation of the truth. And now we have this opportunity with like new media in this age where you and I were, you know, I'm sitting in a studio in a weird room in my house. You're sitting in a studio in the Presidio. Like we are able to broadcast with the same efficacy as somebody with a multimillion dollar studio, right? And that's like a hugely powerful. And you don't even need, you don't even need these fancy sure SM7B mics and a rodecaster, like you can just broadcast via this supercomputer in your pocket. And I feel like that's such a, it's such a liberating force. And it's again, one of those things where the genie doesn't go back in the bottle with this. They can't put this away. And so I truly think like where we're at right now and you see this even with, you know, like any sort of legacy media you can you consume because they're not mainstream anymore. They're, they are legacy. It's all just such trash. Like most of it was already slop and now it's just even sloppier. And I feel they're just, they're slowly dying. I don't know how, like, I don't know how anybody still advertises with a lot of these, these, you know, publications anymore. I mean, even the Financial Times publishing that article from whatever Jemima kelly about bitcoins. $69,000 too expensive, basically. And then they changed the article like an hour later because Bitcoin was $70,000. They had to change the headline. It's just like nobody trusts you anymore. They like, they haven't trusted you for a long time. Like you are dying, you just don't necessarily realize it yet. But like from, from their ashes, something better has been reborn, I think.
- [70:26]
Eric Cason
Yeah, for sure. I was thinking about how it's always also like on the precipice of these technological changes that like Gutenberg's printing press, like, allowed for the printing of the Bible to be read by individuals like Luther, who then were like, hey, like, maybe like, don't need the church for this stuff and same thing. Like that printing press also like allowed for people to distribute their own pamphlets, which they could be like, hey, like, you know, like maybe like the king isn't the right way to do this. Maybe we should do like a representative thing. So yeah, I do think it's a radically empowering thing. And also like, I kind of feel like the call to arms Just to be like, hey, we need. We need a different approach. And like, this form of governance is broken. I think a lot of people would answer the call. It's kind of like the field of dream thing. Like, build it and they will come. But on another level, like, it's also like, pretty terrifying. It's like, you know, we were just talking about that we're ran by a satanic cult of petty pedophilia eating children. And like, it's. I don't know, like, on one level it's kind of scary, it feels unrealistic. And on the other level, it feels very real and direct. But at some level, like, I don't know, I think most people that have children eventually realize that, like, we're going to leave them a world that's like, a lot worse than the one we inherited. The one we inherited was like, a lot shittier than our parents. So it's like, can we do that to them? Like, I feel like our parents at least, like, they, you know, like, I always find this really interesting that like, my mom was a single mom who like, had a really hard time getting by. We, like, grew up poor, but, like, she still managed to, like, buy a house and like, keep it. Like, if you're a single mom today, like, there's no fucking way that's even remotely on the table. And they're like, is a real lack of appreciation from the generation before of, like, what that means. It's funny because, like, I, I live in a place right now that I rent and I, I have the thought a lot of times, like, like, how the. Do you create any sense of community in like, a, like a rental place? Because, like, I, you know, like, the drain's broken. There isn't good incentive for me to fix it. But say, like, same thing about anything with the house or like, you know, planting a garden. Like, what's the incentive? Like, I don't know if I'll be there in the next year. So, like, why. And it's pretty sad because, like, that, that, that starts to conform society in a very particular way to where there's no longer such thing as community. Because community is about this. Similar to what I was going to start talking about. Like, it's about dwelling. It's about a place that you really intend to not just live, but, like, that's where your life emanates from. Whereas simply residing in a building for some duration of time is not about building community. It's just about passing time. And I think that without something like the orange party we're going to find ourselves kind of continuously caught between these two highly corrupt and frankly, evil parties. And like my, my dream with the Orange Party is like, eventually you figure out that we have political policy at that point sweep the elections and then it's like full on like PAC state official offices with state attorneys that are like loyal to the Orange Party and full sweep of the feds of put them all on trial for treason. And at the end, like, who, whoever's found guilty, hang them publicly. And like, it's a scary prospect. But like, I fundamentally believe that most federal representatives, meaning more than 50%, like, I think they are traitors to the American Republic. I think that they have directly collaborated with foreign corporations and governments to essentially sacrifice the American public. And I think that like, unless we make it very clear that the rule of law is applicable to everyone and that if you are in a federal public office and you try to get around the rules for your own benefit, you will be held accountable. And I think right now, you know, take Nancy Pelosi for example. Like, why is it that she's been a career politician and she is worth hundreds of millions of dollars like that? That seems to be very indicative of corruption. And I find it wild that there's a lot of people who will outright defend her. And I don't know, maybe we get farther down the road on this when we realize there's a lot more corruption than we want to believe. But I'd like to think that we're better than that. So.
- [75:04]
Walker America
But this goes back to the initial point that we were discussing earlier, which is like the fact that you brought up, like, look, most people just aren't going to actually care or change in any way. Even with the realization that there is all this just heinous, all these heinous things being done at the highest levels of our government. With regard to Epstein, it's like, I, I, I, I just, I don't know what ends up shaking people loose of this. Because you can tell somebody that, well, Nancy Pelosi's got, you know, 200, 200, 300 million dollar net worth, whatever it is. Like, you know, and like, how is that, how is that possible? Why is she, why is her stock trading record and her husband's like one of the greatest of all time. How does she even have time for all of that? Like, oh my God, she must really be spending time studying so much or like even, even look at like Elizabeth Warren, you know, champion of the people. She's got a net worth of like 60 million or something. And I'm not knocking them because they have a high net worth. I'm knocking them because they've abused their positions of power. That's the fundamental difference. There's nothing wrong with having a lot of money. There's something wrong with being in a position where you elected to serve the people and then you just basically rape and abuse that position. Like, you are just. You are the lowest of the low. Like, I mean, even these. We had multiple cases during COVID of Federal Reserve governors that Rosengren, Kaplan, and there's one more whose name I'm forgetting who were caught insider trading. They didn't even get punished for it. They just like, Jerome was like, well, we'll institute new ethics policies. And it's like, oh, because those work really well. Like, you idiot. Like, no, like, this is just. It's. It's all. It's corrupt to the core, I think is the problem, Eric. And like, you talk about this all the time. It's just like this duopoly that we have. This, as my father in law who escaped communism calls it. He's like, it's like Walker, in America, you have Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola. Democracy, you don't like Coca Cola, you get Pepsi Cola. Like, but you still drink Cola. And it's true. Like, it's that. That idea. He loves America, by the way. He's been in America for a long time. He defected from communism to get here. Like, he knows what communism looks like and he doesn't, you know, does not want it to happen here. But honestly, like, it just gets frustrating to the point where I think everybody, because of the dualism of our political system, everybody feels that they must defend their team no matter what that team does. Everyone feels they must attack other team no matter what that team does, good or bad, on either side, right? And it's the same for both. But we, because of that, we will never actually have meaningfully honest conversations about the true nature of the corruption because everybody will defend their own team even when they know they've got a. Like there's a bunch of satanic pedophiles on both sides, right? Like, satanic pedophilia has bipartisan fucking support, but we're never going to get anywhere with it because everybody just holds the party line. And, and I don't know, like, you're right. We're never going to vote our way out of that because you're voting for two sides of the same coin. Like, two sides of the same satanic pedophilic coin that happen to have different colors and it's like, what do you do? Like, but more parties, you know, like having a big parliamentary system isn't necessarily the, the answer either with a bunch of, you know, coalition governments. But that's why I think this idea that, that you kind of initially posited around the Orange Party is so powerful because it starts out as more of a cultural movement than a political, but it is necessarily political in its nature. Like, is that kind of the way you, you frame it, like the cultural leading to the political or being part of the political?
- [78:40]
Eric Cason
Yeah, and I think that, and, and like I, I think the lowest substrate in it is like the rejection of the red and blue guys of that, like, you know, pedophilia and satanicism has bipartisan support and we reject that. And starting there, like, I think is kind of the best place that you can do. And also like, I think part of the problem is, is that like we're so atrophied and calcified into looking answer the political that like we, the idea of looking forward away from classic approaches seems nearly impossible. And like the, I think we all have this boner for democracy because we believe that like everybody should have a say within our systems and forms of governance, which I think there's some credence to that. But with that being said, like, why isn't there something that's more about like a real time liquid democracy thing? Like I, I, I feel like if there was an ability to cause, like the other thing is, is like I joke a lot about fascism kind of tongue in cheek. And part of it's serious, part of it's not because like, specifically with the world we're dealing with today, like, I, if you had a hardcore fascist movement where you had a leader that was like, give me the power, I will hang the pedophiles, I will butcher the satanic cultures. Which is kind of ironic because that's satanic in its own right. But like, I will deal with these things through the law and capital punishment. I'd probably support them because like, I'm pretty angry about how corrupt things are. And like I, I have a very deep disgust for somebody like Elizabeth Warren, mostly for her hypocrisy. Like, it would be really different if she wasn't so hypocritical in trying to like lecture me about how I don't care for the people and that I want bitcoin to be able to destroy the environment. It's like, bitch, like how like, like you have the audacity to try to lecture Me on this while, like, you literally started out as a woman who said, I'm gonna stand up against the big banks, and now you take more money from the big banks than any other representative. Like, like, it's just, it's a real smack to the face. And more than anything, I'm, I'm really resentful about that. And I think there's a lot of people out there that feel the same way. And I think that trying to collectivize ourselves and realize that like there's, there's a technological solution we have to this that nobody's thought of yet. And I feel like if we really put our heads together and tried our best to find a way to approach that and like kind of synthesize all these things, maybe there's a real answer. But it's also really scary. It's not like, you know, it's not like you start organizing something like this and the Democrats and Republicans are like, there's, they're like using cryptography to like build the system. Like, dang it, like we, you know, like, and this is like where the wrench attack thing comes from is it's like, haha, I've encrypted my, my passwords. You'll never get it from me. And it's like, yeah, just beat them with this wrench for a while and we'll see what happens. So like, there's a lot of risk with this stuff. And I think there's very strong forces of not only propaganda, but other things. But at some point we have to ask ourselves, like, when is actually enough enough? And I think like, that's, that's a really terrifying question because I think a lot of people realize that there probably actually isn't a point, you know, that like, if they, if the police did come to their house and ask them to murder their neighbor, they'd probably be okay with it. And like, I, I don't want to be critical of other people for the choices that they make, but I personally really want to be able to leave a better future for my kids and feel like they have greater rights and capacity to protect those, but also the ability to have real privacy and to be able to have the volition to ask questions they want to. And that's something that, that is, is really in significant lack today that like even trying to ask sincere questions around any taboo topic is really difficult. And so I, I don't know, I think a lot about these things and how there's an opportunity that presents itself to us, but we just have to be courageous enough to actually seize it. And I'm afraid, like, maybe I'm too chicken to do that. And like, it's a deeply shameful thing to have to actually like kind of see it and be like, I don't know, like, maybe I'm too afraid to do this.
- [83:10]
Walker America
I, I feel that sentiment very deeply. I also think that it's different because like, when you have kids, right, like you, you fundamentally, when you have children, there is now something that you do care about more than yourself and you. That was the. When our son was born, that was when I first understood what like true low time preference meant an actual long term thinking. I thought I did, but I really only grasped it in this sort of theoretical, academic way where I was like, oh yeah, I'm a long term thinker, you know, thinking long into the future, you know, generations, right? But it's like, no, until you see that next generation there, I don't think you can really grapple with that. Like, there's a reason that even, you know, most of the revolutionaries, the great men who built this country, were very young men, right? And obviously some of them were married. Like, some of them had kids too, but like a lot of them were, were very young. Like they were brimming with testosterone and hatred of the tyrannical British Empire. And they went out there with reckless abandon and put their lives in the line. That gets a lot harder to do when you are, when you have a child or children to answer to. I think it's like, I feel that there is a balance there where it's like, to what point do you put yourself out there? To what point do you risk yourself? Because you're not just risking yourself anymore when you have kids. You're risking everything, you're risking your family. And I think that's where it becomes a difficult proposition and it is hard to grapple with because at the same time you're like, well, but hey, like, nobody else is stepping up, nobody else is doing this, nobody else is speaking the truth. How do you, you know, and, but will I just be one of the others that slinks back into the darkness and, and decides, well, I'll let somebody else do that, or will I be the one who tries to speak the truth? And I think fundamentally too, where I always come back to, because, you know, you brought up this point about privacy too. And I think that that's so important for our kids to have. It's something that I think about a lot and I think that it's become this idea that the whole trope of why do you need privacy if you have nothing to hide? Why do you. Why do. Why do you need that, right, that. That old trope? And it's so insidious because we're now at a point where our kids could grow up with literally zero privacy. Like, of any kind. Not even. Not even private. Private thoughts, no private communications of any kind, unless maybe you're in person. But even if you're in person, you know, if you're in any sort of concentrated, you know, urban or, you know, suburban area, you're still going to be surveilled there. That's all still going to be tracked. It's all still going to be associated with your face. It's all going to be tagged to your social profile, which is ultimately then going to be, you know, assessed by AI and determine whether or not you're a threat to the, you know, societal order and, you know, for the greater good, maybe you need to be removed. It is a terrifying fucking prospect because I don't think you can have any sort of actual freedom without privacy at its core. Like, I think you need that. I don't think you can have true free speech if you can't speak freely in private. I don't think you can have absolutely anything without privacy at its core. But people just don't give a. Like, people really don't give a. About privacy, like, at all. And they're.
- [86:17]
Eric Cason
They haven't suffered convenience.
- [86:19]
Walker America
Right.
- [86:20]
Eric Cason
You know, it's. Yeah, it's like at the core of the idea of not having privacy is really about thought modification and making it so that you can't think in a way that has any dissonance within it, you know, because, like, this is why volition and the ability to think for yourself is so important. Is not that, like, not because I'm going to shove a fork in the light socket on my own, but if I can't be like, oh, if, like, if I'm told to shove a fork in a light sock and I do it anyway, it's like, I'm going to learn from the lesson of it. But if we're not allowed to think for ourselves, I can't be like, oh, like, maybe this is dangerous to me. Maybe I shouldn't do that. Like, maybe even if Bob said to do it, that. That, like, that's a dangerous thing. And so to me, like, there. There's. We're entering into an age of extraordinary danger of where not only can we lose the ability to actually have the privacy and the ability to have volition, to think for ourselves. But that becomes something much more extreme in that getting outside of that box, to even consider why it could have value is starting to become endangered in itself. And I think the other thing is, is that I think the truth is, is that, like, we exist in a very important time and that like, in five years from now, like, this thing is, we kind of either have freedom or we don't. And like, those are kind of the options on the table. And the other one is, is like, and I think Trump, Trump's election and appeal is a signal this, like, people are fucking sick of normal politicians. Like, people, people hate the, the Nancy Pelosi's and Chuck Grassley's of the world. Like, we're, we're no longer interested in this kind of performative appeal to everybody. Like, we want people that'll actually kind of speak off the cuff and be real people. And I think Trump captures some of that in a particular way. And so, like, while I think the prospect of something like an Orange Party, while it seems far fetched from our particular angle right now, like kind of every major political movement seemed like that at its fruition. You know, whether it was Lenin's Communist Party and when he wrote what needs to be done in 1906 and the development that happened over the next decade that allowed her to seize Russia, or the fact that the Nazi party in 1927 only captured 3% of the vote in Germany and then like, it happened to sweep the elections by 1933. Like any radical political movement seems very nascent at its beginning. But I think bitcoiners seem to have captured a particular form and ethos that while it's still definitely in the minority, like, I think we're looking at history in the right direction. I think if you look at some of the works of a number of individuals, like Lawrence Lepard's work, that shows. Just do the math and you'll see that the US dollar is going to die, that people are going to need an alternative, that bitcoin seems to be the best representation of what that alternative is, not just for Americans, but for the globe on a whole. I think we should try to assert that politically in a large and meaningful way. And like, I hate the one that I'm the most pedantic about it because it seems to ascribe some particular responsibility towards me. But, like, I don't want it. I just see it and I like, I want somebody else to pick it up and run with it. I'm happy to, to Help and do and encourage it. But I don't know, maybe I should just accept fate and that I'm sort of doomed towards something like this and I don't want it, but maybe that, that would make me a good dictator. And to be clear, I'm a dictator. Like I'm not, I'm, I'm super. Like this representative democracy thing to me is like I, I don't understand why I'm supposed to collectivize myself with a bunch of idiots that can't think for themselves. What, like, like why the. Should somebody who hasn't studied any amount of history have the same right and capacity to make comments on those as I do. And like, I, I get that that's like inflammatory in a particular way, but like, I think like most people are fucking morons and that's why when you like talk to them about money and they're like, well the dollar's backed by gold, right. It's like I, I don't know where to start here. So I don't know. I'm, I'm a bit resentful about the whole thing. But at the same time like, and like with all with on people like that, there's also brilliant, incredible, extraordinary individuals that are making massive contributions to humanity a. The most incredible ways. And like I'm, that's part of why I'm so big on individual rights is that like I, I'm, I'm way more concerned and interested in the 1 in 1 million people that can become Einstein's and protecting the ability and capacity for them to explore and discover and allow for them to become who they can really be with their potential than I am in helping out the other, you know, 999,000 people that are absolute idiots that will never make an impact on the world. Like, I just, I just, I very much believe in the individual in very radical ways. So that's kind of gives you some idea of how I approach things.
- [91:42]
Walker America
Well, and so much of it just also comes back to like the perversion of the law and private property and the fact that like where we don't and to bring it back to community and then we'll wrap this up because I've kept you long already and I made you, I made you roll solo for a while and I appreciate, I appreciate you doing so. But, but this idea.
- [92:03]
Eric Cason
Are you gonna make me roll again by myself?
- [92:06]
Walker America
No, not at all. Not at all.
- [92:08]
Eric Cason
But you started to break up for a second there.
- [92:10]
Walker America
Oh geez, I was hoping, I'm hoping not. So far so good. Jesus. But the idea that, like you talked about community earlier and building that now, that's actually, like, not possible without the dwelling, right? And it's not possible without private property. And it also gets back to this idea of why communism ultimately deteriorates and fails is because when people don't have ownership, when there's, quote, collective ownership, nobody gives a shit about things when things are yours. When you have private property, you protect those things, you make those things better, you grow upon those things to create more. When it's not yours, when it's just, you know, the parties, when it's the collectives, you don't actually give a about that. And so much of what democracy goes toward, ultimately, like the end state of it is mob rule, right? And this is something that's been around for thousands of years with like Polybius's anticyclosis was this first kind of like instantiation of this, which was. You start out, you know, the societies move in these. In these sociopolitical cycles where it starts out with a monarch, the monarch becomes a dictator. From dictatorship, you move to an aristocracy that takes over from that and they govern well for a while. It moves to an oligarchy when the, when that gets corrupted from the oligarchy, you move to a democracy and everything is great and fine. And then it moves to mob rule, eventually ocracy, and then eventually what is necessary to get out of mob rule and oglocracy, well, that's a strong man, a monarch, you know, a dictator to come back in and be able to bring things and to right the ship, essentially. And I think that, like, we're at the. We're right on the verge of that oglocracy stage right now, where democracy, it's being clear that that is just. It's not working as well as people kind of thought it does or as well as people want to imagine that it does. And, and we're going to have a reckoning with that. People are, because it's like, you can't just keep taxing people to hell while at the same time saying, well, your vote is just the same as everyone else's, no matter how much you contribute to the society. Like, people eventually are going to get sick and tired of that. And I think they are already. And the fact that you're also stealing from them every single day, week, month, year through inflation at the same time while taxing them to death. It's like people are just getting sick and tired of it and they will eventually break. And I think that, you know, we're going to start. It's going to be a chaotic time, Eric. A very chaotic time for sure.
- [94:29]
Eric Cason
And the question is, is like, how are we going to respond to that kind of breakdown? And, you know, like, I think there's some new political form that synthesizes technology, Democratic rights, Republicanism, like, how much one pays into a system. I think there's some pretty novel and interesting ways to approach this question, but I think we need to actually try to address it technologically at some point in time. And it feels like now is the time, particularly with AI and where it's at in its development. Because also, like, it seems to me how radical these powers are that people are going to be restricted from having access to it. And I think that that's going to be a huge preeminent, right, in the next 10 years is be able to say, look, like all people everywhere have a right to this form of knowledge and to be able to interact with it as they choose. And trying to limit some people from being able to have access to that is inherently and fundamentally wrong. Because turns out, like, if a kid is brilliant and he has access to one of these things, he can make discoveries that will affect and help all of humanity. And if they're restricted from it, well, nothing will ever become of them. So. So yeah, I just, I want to kind of encourage everybody, like, think about this in big ways. Challenge yourself to consider what and how we could change the world. And I don't know, maybe. Maybe it's time that we actually try to. I talked to Marty Bent about this. Is that like, maybe, maybe on the 250th anniversary of the. The American Independence, maybe we should try to find an orange party and its principles and like, substantiate that in a meaningful way to then carry forward. It's a fun idea. I'm a big ideas guy. Not so much on the execution side, so.
- [96:18]
Walker America
Well, I mean, you can, you can count me in. And we, we already know, you know, we've got, we've got Hodl and we'll just, we'll opt him in since he's not here as well. I've kept you for a while now and I appreciate you running solo. Where can people go to find out more about Vora, by the way? For anybody who was listening and was like, yeah, that sounds fucking awesome.
- [96:37]
Eric Cason
Yeah, go to vora.IO you can sign up for what's going to eventually become sort of our launch for pre sales. We're hoping to get that out by the end of Q2. We'll kind of see how development happens. Nice. If you're interested in my own work, you can follow me on Twitter. It's just my name, Eric Cason. Or you can find me on Noster as well. And if you're interested in my philosophy, I have a book called Crypto Sovereignty. You can find most of the writings@Crypto sovereignty.org as well.
- [97:08]
Walker America
And shout out to all the folks who did join on NOSTR and who zapped some sats as well. Appreciate you all. We are living in the future already here on Noster. It's just not evenly distributed yet. Eric, thank you man. I always, I always appreciate these, these sessions with you. I always leave hating the state just a little bit more, but also a little bit more bullish on humanity. So cheers.
- [97:31]
Eric Cason
Cheers indeed. The State. For anybody who was waiting for me to say that I couldn't.
- [97:35]
Walker America
There we go. We made it right to the end.
- [97:38]
Eric Cason
So. All right.
- [97:40]
Walker America
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of the Bitcoin Podcast. Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening and share it with your friends, family and strangers on the Internet. Find me on noster@primal.net Walker and this podcast@primal.net Titcoin on X, YouTube and Rumble. Just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram @titcoin podcast. Head to the Show Notes to grab sponsor links. Head to substack.com walker America to get episodes emailed by to you. And head to bitcoin podcast.net for everything else. Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.