← THE Bitcoin Podcast
THE Bitcoin Podcast
LAWYER UP: DEFENDING BITCOIN MINERS & SETTING PRECEDENT | Paula Pendley (THE Bitcoin Podcast)
01:18:19
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- [00:00]
Paula Pendley
So when laws were made, right, no one's contemplating bitcoin mining. No one's contemplating digital currency. No one knows the bitcoin protocol, right, when they're creating laws. And same with AI. So these legislatures and these judges also in their judicial brains, they're seeing some of these things for the first time. So a lot of these are cases of first impression. So you are setting a precedent now in these lawsuits that becomes a persuasive authority. So then someone in another state can say, well, this judge ruled in this way, and this is what you need to do here. And, you know, the judge, if it's persuasive authority, they can just kind of use that as an analogous thing. But the judges will look to something else, especially when it's a new thing that they haven't. They don't understand. And so the laws that we. And the. The orders that we get from courts now, the judgments that we get from courts now, any of these verdicts and any of the nuisance litigation that happens will be used as precedent moving forward. And that goes for all of them. So, you know, I know there's competitor mining competitors, but really what's set for one is kind of set for a lot of them. So everyone kind of needs to be on board.
- [01:14]
Walker
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.
- [01:17]
Natalie Brunel
My name is Walker, and this is the bitcoin podcast. The bitcoin time chain is 884,4622. And the value of one bitcoin is still one bitcoin. Today my guest is Paula Pendley. Paula is an attorney, and some of her newest clients are bitcoin miners. Paul and I dug deep into her work as a lawyer defending bitcoin minors and the types of legal attacks minors face. But we also discussed the use of AI in law, why no one trusts the legacy media anymore, the changing regulatory landscape, and more. But before we dive in, do me a favor and subscribe to the bitcoin podcast wherever you're listening. And make sure to subscribe on YouTube or rumble as well. Just search Walker America. And if you find this show valuable, consider giving value back by giving it a zap on Noster or a boost on Fountain. You can find me on noster@primal.net Walker and this podcast@primal.net Titcoin without further ado, let's get into this bitcoin talk with Paula Pendley.
- [02:20]
Walker
Foreign. Welcome. Thanks for coming on here. This is only your second ever bitcoin.
- [02:33]
Natalie Brunel
Podcast appearance, is that correct?
- [02:34]
Paula Pendley
That is correct, yes. My first one was on Coin Stories, Natalie. And so thank you for having me.
- [02:40]
Walker
Of course. I'm sorry, this, you know, this show may be a little bit of a step down from Natalie's, but I promise we'll still have a good time. Of course. I. So, I mean, I met you through Natalie and it's been great getting to know you a little bit and I wanted to have you on because honestly, I think the perspective that you bring is really fascinating. I think that people are paying a lot more attention right now to kind of not just their own bitcoin stack, but like, what is actually happening in the broader ecosystem and what sorts of things may be impediments to that. And you specifically deal with a lot of companies who are fighting legal battles, and those companies are ones that are trying to promote the adoption of bitcoin or to mine bitcoin or whatever it may be. But. And I want to get into to some of that and just like some of the legal challenges that you've dealt with. But I want to start out a little bit with just who are you? How did you get here today? How did you get to be an attorney that is now focused on bitcoin and kind of quite immersed in this bitcoin ecosystem as well.
- [03:45]
Paula Pendley
Right. Well, thank you for having me and yeah, I'll try to keep it interesting for the viewers and listeners. So I'm originally I'm from Louisiana. I went out to law school in California, an undergrad out there. I started practicing at a firm that I was working at when I was in law school. And I did a lot of construction work and kind of accident prevention premises liability type cases. I ended up laterally moving to another firm, and that was in 2012. And I tried my first case to verdict in 2014. And ever since then, I've really been predominantly a trial attorney. I handle a lot of litigation disputes like Coast To Coast. I'm licensed in California and Texas. But there's something in the legal world called pro hockviche. And so you can pro hock into. Yeah, it's a Latin term. You can pro hoc, of course. Yeah. Into certain jurisdictions. And so you just essentially move the court or you file an application of the court to allow them to allow yourself to practice law in a foreign jurisdiction in which you're not licensed for the limited purpose of just trying that particular lawsuit or case. So I've had to try cases in New York and Connecticut, Carolina, places like North Carolina, South Carolina, so all over the place. But now I live in Texas I moved to Texas in 2020 and I've. So how I got into the bitcoin world and how did bitcoin become my legal practice is I went to the bitcoin conference in 2021 down in Miami with Natalie. Natalie Brunel orange pilled me. She and I go back since undergrad. We went to undergrad together and just have been friends ever since. And once I went to that one conference, I mean, I had heard Natalie talk about bitcoin for a while, but it never really started duck until I, you know, really got immersed in it and you know, met people in it, understood a little bit more, took some time to educate myself in it and then started working like doing the estate practice. I thought, okay, well, a natural thing that I was hearing in the community was people that were kind of worried about how to properly secure and then transfer and, and allow their loved ones to inherit their bitcoin. So if and how do you securely, securely transfer that private key? But when I started to do that work, I learned that it's a really niche practice and it's very, very state specific and it's mainly in boutique firm practices. So I then when it, when I really, really got involved helping bitcoin businesses and generally data centers and miners was when a lot of the miners started moving to Texas. And you know, Governor Abbott here is welcomed a lot of them publicly invited them to come to Texas. Texas is obviously a very friendly, business friendly state. It's got cheap, abundant energy, lots of land, you know. And then also I think part of the catalyst too was when China kind of banned the miners. And so I think a lot of the miners started refocusing and trying to figure out where they're going to relocate. And a lot of them came to Texas. And at that point, you know, of course they need counsel to help them set up legal frameworks and set up the processes and assist with any outside litigation and any outside disputes. Because, you know, as new technology evolves, there's always, you know, contract disputes, you know, all sorts of things that people maybe not even thought about. So there was an increasing need for specialized legal expertise. And it's hard to find someone, you know, you could find a litigator, but it's hard to find someone who's actually knows what bitcoin is and understands it and was involved in it. So I think that's what drove a lot of people to, to, to come to me as, okay, wait a second, like a lot of people don't understand the digital currency aspect of it. So that kind of gave me, I guess a leg up a little bit. So. And cut me off when you want me to. But I can tell you about the cases I've handled in the, in the, in this like ecosystem if you think it'd be helpful.
- [08:06]
Walker
No, it would. I, I just want to say I think that's such an interesting thing because it's the same thing with like, with bitcoin companies who are looking for, let's say like marketing firms or for any sort of marketing help. They can go to any number of the firms that specialize in just marketing. Like, but those firms don't necessarily know what the heck they're talking about with regard to bitcoin. And that's just like.
- [08:28]
Paula Pendley
Right.
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Walker
That creates problems. And I imagine it's the same thing with law. It's like if you're a bitcoin company, you want legal representation that actually like understands bitcoin, that is preferably, you know, a bitcoiner advocating for you because you're just going to be better at doing your job. You're not going to have the hurdle of like even explaining what bitcoin is. Like, you're, you're already there, you're already orange pilled. So I imagine that that's like very attractive to clients.
- [08:52]
Paula Pendley
It just makes it easier for them. I mean even internally here at my firm I have, when I bring a team together, you know, I have to give them a little Bitcoin 101 course a little bit because a lot of people, it's still new and if you, and we have a bitcoin family that we have and we, you know, we're bitcoin Twitter and you get involved and immersed in it and it's, it's hard for us to step back and remember, okay, wait. Not everybody is as involved as we are and has been with it for as long. But I think you know, predominantly now with like the new administration, it's been in the news so much more. The obviously all time highs that we've been dealing with has just really gotten people very interested. So I think there's a lot more people now out there that are educating themselves hopefully, but. And it's becoming a little more adopted. But yes, I think when you know a someone's out there, a bitcoin business or data center in general is looking for someone that can help them, they don't want to have to explain what it is. And I think it makes it easier if you know, you just have enough information to be dangerous and you certainly.
- [10:02]
Walker
Don'T want somebody representing you who thinks what the legacy media has told them, which is that Bitcoin is a scam or a Ponzi scheme or bad for the environment or whatever else. You want somebody who's going to really be on your side and get it. And I'm curious if you can talk as much as you are legally allowed to maybe about some of the cases that you've worked on, because I'm sure some of them are going to sound a little bit familiar to people who have followed the mining space fairly closely.
- [10:28]
Paula Pendley
Right? Yeah, sure, yeah. Just because of attorney client confidentiality reasons. I won't go into, like, certain details, but generally speaking, I do do nuisance litigation for data centers. And that's been, you know, a nuisance litigation. Let me define it really quick. It's. It's when someone is alleging that another party, the defendant, is substantially and unreasonably interfering with the use and enjoyment of their property. So. And every state has their own, you know, they'll reword it in some way, but that's essentially the common law definition of it. And so there's tweaks here and there. You have to understand the standard of care and things like that in different jurisdictions. But the main seminal cases in Texas, where I am, is a case called Crosstax, and there's another case, Blanchard. I think it's a Sanderson Farms case. But those are the two cases that you really follow for nuisance litigation. And, you know, a nuisance litigation is something that involves a lot of risk management. So you try to be a good neighbor to avoid lawsuits. Right. So you do a lot on the front end. You have to do a good job listening and planning and adapting to some of the concerns of the neighborhood. But at some point, sometimes lawsuits are filed and you have to defend them. And so you'll probably one of the biggest challenges in the nuisance world right now as. As it pertains to mining. And as you know, these kinds of plaintiff advertising that you kind of alluded to when you're talking about the mainstream media has kind of had a hostile reporting on mining in general. But even plaintiff's lawyer advertising is also aimed at finding lawsuits. Okay, so you've probably seen it. Every state has different rules on what they can show, what, how. How. How plaintiffs can advertise. But in, you know, you'll see all these things online where they say, okay, well, call this number if you've been harmed in this or call this number if you ingested this or you. It's a Med malic thing or a cancer inducing thing. So you call one of these, one of these telephone farms and it's not really even a lawyer there. Okay. That someone just. That's taking out a lot of your information, then they take that information and they sell that as a lead to a plaintiff. And so that's in all kinds of industries that's been going on. And so bitcoin is no exception to that rule, unfortunately. And mining has been no exception to that rule. And so that's how they, they will sometimes and then in the newspaper. So plaintiff's lawyers will advertise and you know, I don't want to say, but sometimes create lawsuits by power of suggestion. So ads suggest to people what they may be experiencing. And that is what. And I'm not just. This isn't just pie in the sky. This has happened in my, in my nuisance cases that I deal with. So you're more inclined to perceive something that's suggested to you. So Walker, if I'd say like, oh my gosh, do you, do you smell that, like chocolate chip cookie or that popcorn or something? All of a sudden you're like you're smelling for it, right? Or. And then same with, with no, same with noise. Some sound. It's, you know, do you hear it? You all of a sudden start listening for it. You start thinking, oh, does it? And it's so much perception and emotional involved in that. So that's one of the challenges is, is really just kind of battling these heavily funded other groups, nonprofits that have agendas that really want to kind of shut down mining or the mainstream media that doesn't want to give a fair side to the story. And so people, when they don't understand something, they let. They read an article or a headline and unfortunately they. It breeds fear free or, you know, you feel like you're lacking control and you know, you look at all the negative things instead of all the positive aspects. So anyway, nuisance litigation is one, is one area. Another is environmental issues. Minors. When they're setting up data centers, you know, one of the main issues is, you know, there's an agency in every state. They probably run under a different name, but it's like a commission of environmental quality and they regulate your air, land and water usage. So every data center needs to be aware of the requirements for that. And then they have to report on that every year. And these are just regulations state by state. But there's. I realized, you know, in this practice that there's a misconception that a Lot of data centers use a lot of water and in some cases that's totally untrue. But so we have, we have to educate these regulators and clarify and the usage and the report on it promptly. Because they do have the right to show up at, and I'm not trying to fear, like scare anyone, but they do have the right to show up at a business, at, at a what, during reasonable business hours and allow. Act and you have to allow them access to see what you're doing on, on the property. And these can be induced by anonymous complaints too. Okay, so who do you think's making anonymous complaints? I mean. Right, yeah, consumer advocacy groups, plaintiffs lawyers, politicians needing a platform to run on it can run, you know, run the gamut there. So that's just something that I've also had to deal with and work with and that. And then there's contract disputes with hosting agreements. Okay. So a lot of data centers will host third party miners on their property. And then there's just common pitfalls that lead to disputes. You know, the key to writing a contract is anticipate the worst case scenario all the time and kind of protect, protect you from the beginning to kind of give you leverage later if, if a dispute arises.
- [16:31]
Walker
I'm curious if I, if I can ask quick because just earlier you mentioned some of the, these kind of, these advocacy groups and in sort of, I guess in your world, like leading the witness, not before the trial has even started, but like kind of priming them, let's say. And is, is that, I mean, some of the biggest. Well, I don't know if they were actually the biggest stories, but the ones that like Greenpeace and the, what's the Sierra Club? Some of these other ones were like pushing out there with these protests that they were showing with like five people. Is that kind of what you're referring to? I think a lot of these were in Texas too, where they were spending clearly a lot of money to try and make it seem like there was a bunch of public resistance to these Bitcoin miners.
- [17:14]
Paula Pendley
Right? Yeah, exactly. And another one's like Earth justice. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So they are anti fossil fuel and they think that, you know, miners are harming the environment. Right, but they didn't. They don't tell the other side of the story, which is that, you know, miners obviously use the surplus that would be wasted. It would go, you know, when oil is extracted, there is natural gas that comes with it. And unless you want it to flare off as methane in the air, you can capture it and Use it for electricity. And that's what miners do. They stabilize the grid, you know, by do by using that. And then there's, you know, wind, solar, hydro, all that surplus energy. That's that we have a ton of it in Texas. And all of that surplus energy, if it's not captured, we just waste it. And so it's a way of using that. And anyway, so that's the other side of the story and that's the one you have to tell. And but yeah, it's easier to tell the victim story. It's just an easier, it's an easier media story kind of clickbait thing. You really have to dig deep to kind of get past that. And I do think mainstream media has been put to the task recently in the last couple of years. And I think people are looking at news in a more critical eye. And this is just my opinion, but they, I don't know that people go to the mainstream ones as much for their news. I think people go on their phones more and want to hear from people more. So hopefully that continues because I think that's when you really get to understand both sides of the coin.
- [18:55]
Walker
Absolutely. I mean it's interesting too. I'm curious, you said you represent data centers broadly. Bitcoin miners are obviously a type of data center. Right.
- [19:06]
Natalie Brunel
And I'm wondering, have you seen different.
- [19:08]
Walker
Treatment of bitcoin miners specifically versus let's say a traditional data center like cloud hosting data center versus bitcoin miners? Have you seen different treatment? I mean, I certainly feel like I have. At least in the media. Bitcoin miners seem to be demonized. People don't seem to really care that much about data centers. Maybe now that there's more like AI compute required, people are a little bit more paying attention. But what have you seen kind of from, from behind the veil in terms of the treatment of these different classifications?
- [19:40]
Paula Pendley
I do think unfortunately bitcoin and cryptocurrency just. And like other cryptos even they just get a bad rap. And the, the bitcoin world, like the subculture of the bitcoin world, you know, is the, you know, pretty vocal and anti government, anti traditional finance, distrust of banks. So the messaging can sometimes sound conspiratorial in some other worlds. Right. And, and especially to. We don't want to alienate a mainstream audience. But that is why I think that maybe bitcoiners are targeted more because it's more of the independent thought, you know, libertarian thinking, just, just anti government sovereign over money and that kind of thing. Just gets people, you know, all worked up, the people that have been doing the same thing for, for years and years. So I do think they are targeted more, unfortunately. I think also the whole Silk Road thing kind of gave it a bad image from, you know, years and years back, I guess. You know, I think people just thought it was drug money. You know, this is how you use to get drug money or something. So I think that that image is getting better. But I do think there's some people out there that still think that, which means that, you know, they kind of target a little bit more. And I'm not saying that the AI isn't going to be targeted more now, but AI is fairly new, is a lot newer than, than bitcoin and digital currencies and things like that. So AI, I'm sure it's going to be, it's something down the pike that they had their thinking of and considering and knowing that that's going to be an issue that they're going to face as well. It's just, it's a little newer so they're not getting, they haven't gotten the heat as much quite yet probably.
- [21:40]
Natalie Brunel
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- [22:20]
Walker
Or a writer or anything, you can.
- [22:22]
Natalie Brunel
Start monetizing your work immediately on nostr.
- [22:26]
Walker
Unlike on YouTube X or any other centralized platform. Plus you don't have to kyc yourself or wait till you get to a.
- [22:32]
Natalie Brunel
Certain engagement threshold in order to monetize. You can find me on Nostr by going to primal.netwalker and you can check out this podcast on Nostr@primal.net Titcoin Primal has a built in bitcoin wallet so you can literally get zapped by people for your posts. Then go use those sats to Buy a coffee or do whatever you want all from the same app. Search for Primal in the App store, go to primal.net or check out any of the hundreds of other Nostr apps that are out there, because you can freely switch between them any time you want. So come join the largest bitcoin circular economy in the world and start zapping sats on nostr.
- [23:12]
Walker
So I'm curious, with these nuisance lawsuits, specifically, what is the end goal on, on the side of the plaintiff? Is the goal to extract like, monetary compensation? Like they want to basically get a settlement out of the bitcoin miner, for example? Is it to shut down their operations? Is it just to drown them in paperwork so that they have to close up shop? Like, what do they actually hope to get out of it? And what is the. I guess, I mean, if you're representing them, maybe the result is very good for the bitcoin miners. But like, have there been some, some negative results where the bitcoin miners, like, ended up losing these things and really suffering?
- [23:52]
Paula Pendley
So the end goal depends on the lawsuit. Some will allege personal injury and they'll make a complaint for personal. I'm talking generally a nuisance litigation. Generally some will, you know that, yeah, looking for perhaps some monetary compensation. And in nuisance lawsuits generally, others are looking for injunctions, permanent injunctions, and an injunction would shut you down. Now, every state is going to be different on their injunction. Some can do a limiting injunction, say requiring it's. So an injunction is equitable relief. And so the judge has a little more. And the jury depending, you know, if it's a bench trial or jury trial, but they have a little more leniency in the, and the, and essentially what they're going to rule because they can sometimes say, well, I'm not going to, I won't shut it down, but it has to do X, Y, Z. So you see that in different. It depends on the case. It's a case by case basis. But yeah, I mean, I've been in lawsuits where they're requesting compensation. I've been in lawsuits where they're just asking for the whole thing to be shut down. I think the ones that you'll see with respect to like the, the green pieces, those kind of lawsuits that are heavily funded and they have like third party funding and then they have government funding, they have private funding. But those, they're looking more to shut it down because they want the industry to go away altogether. So, yeah, that's, that's that. And this is what's so important, right now is because these. So when laws were made, right, no one's contemplating bitcoin mining, no one's contemplating digital currency. No one knows the bitcoin protocol. Right. When they're creating laws. And same with AI. So these legislatures and these judges, you know, and also in their judicial branch, they're seeing some of these things for the first time. So a lot of these are cases of first impression. So you are setting a precedent now in these lawsuits that will, you know, will. So it's binding in the, if you're in state court, it'll be binding on the court of that jurisdiction. But even say there was a ruling in, you know, a neighboring state, it can be done. It has to be a neighboring state. But in any other state, such as like Kentucky or Arkansas, whatever, like that becomes second. Like it's like a persuasive authority. So then someone in another state can say, well this judge ruled in this way and this is what you need to do here. And you know, the judge, if it's persuasive authority, they can just kind of use that as an analogous thing. But it's very pers. You know, people, the judges will look to something else, especially when it's a new thing that they haven't, they don't understand. And so the laws that we, and the, the orders that we get from courts now, the judgments that we get from courts now, any of these verdicts and any of the nuisance litigation that happens will be used as precedent moving forward. So that's why it's really. And that goes for all of them. So it's, you know, I know there's competitor mining competitors, but really what's set for one is kind of set for a lot of them. So everyone kind of needs to be on board. And then, so I do, I do anticipate there will be quite a lot of appeals going on because I'm going up to the highest court to get a ruling on some of these things in the states. And depending on if you're in a federal jurisdiction or, or, or in the state court. So anyway, that's one, that's one area. And then.
- [27:33]
Walker
Yeah, so yeah, I was just gonna say, I mean, so it, there's kind of like this is, this is like a unique moment where you have the, you know, the birth and kind of widespread adoption of a new technology during this time from a, from a non technological, but from a legal standpoint, it's like this is sort of setting the rules of the road or at least the precedents that are going to be used legally later to just kind of, you know, potentially, I mean, if things don't go well, used to really punish minors and if they do go well, allow miners to actually continue operating without needing to worry about frivolous lawsuits being thrown at them hand over fist, is that kind of a fair summary?
- [28:13]
Paula Pendley
Absolutely. Yeah, exactly.
- [28:15]
Walker
I mean, so this is kind of like a, a key moment then right now because it's like if you don't win these cases now, if you don't set that precedent, it's going to cause just an unimaginable amount of trouble down the road. I mean, is it, do you see, like a lot of is there, you know, are bitcoin miners kind of also getting together on this and realizing, hey, look, even though we're competing, we're all competing for hash rate, what benefits one of us from a legal precedent perspective is going to benefit all of us, or do they all kind of go it alone To a certain extent.
- [28:49]
Paula Pendley
I, you know, I'm probably not privy to a ton of the conversations among all of them, but I do think, you know, perhaps not in the legal sense, like in a, in a, like a dispute or litigation setting, but certainly in a lobbying setting or an advocacy group setting, like, for example, in Texas we have the Texas Blockchain Council led by Lee Bratcher. And they, you know, you have all these miners that are members of this council and come together to engage lawmakers to make more favorable bitcoin friendly laws. And so the response there has been wonderful, but it's really going to the legislature at that point. Like for example, either yesterday or two days ago, sometime this week, the Senate had a bill in Austin on creating a Texas bitcoin strategic reserve. So that's something that they're going to be voting on soon. And I think there's a, also a House bill and there's maybe the only distinction there really is whether or not the state of Texas, it'll be part of the treasury or whether it's, you know, manned more outside of the treasury, probably like the state controller and like there's probably some, you know, checks and balances there and someone monitoring the whole thing. But so anyway, I'm just saying that's just one example of like where minors are really coming together to create policies on both the state and federal levels. And then not really that. Also when you start creating the laws that are favorable, then the judges in the, and you know, the, they have to follow it. But another way of doing that is also in litigation. But yeah, I do Think, um, there the miners, you know, are coming together for different reasons. Like for example, in Wyoming they passed a lot of bitcoin friendly laws about self custody and private keys and things like that. And so I think in different states they're, they're targeting different like laws that they, that, that, that they want to have passed. And it's just a matter of getting them passed, educating, educating the people in the legislature too, because that's another hurdle. So. But anyway, I don't think the miners are restricted in that participation, but I'm not sure that they all get together necessarily when there's a litigation going on.
- [31:18]
Walker
That's fair. I'm curious too, if you see that there's going to be, I mean obviously different states have different treatments for things. Right? They have different ways they're going to handle it. Different levels of friendliness towards any industry. But towards bitcoin miners specifically, I mean we, you mentioned the China mining ban earlier. Obviously that brought a lot of mining to the US do you think we're going to see a lot of, let's say jurisdictional arbitrage continue to happen just within the US Itself? States like Texas, states like Wyoming that are more favorable like that just seems like they're going to suck any hash rate out of these other states. If people know, hey, legally, from a, you know, a legal standpoint, this is.
- [31:55]
Natalie Brunel
A friendly state to do business in.
- [31:57]
Walker
Because you know, you're not going to have the rug pulled out from under you.
- [32:00]
Paula Pendley
Yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, I don't think you're going to be seeing it in California and New York. You know, I think, I think you're just, it's going to be gravitating towards the Texas, the Floridas, the Wyomings, the Ohio's. That's where you'll see it probably predominantly, maybe even the Nevadas or the, in Arizona, you know, so where there's a lot of land, you know, a lot of cheaper energy, good infrastructure, welcoming policies, taxes or you know, tax friendly policies, business friendly policies. That's, I think that's where you're going to see most of them. And you will see it, I think a distinction there.
- [32:42]
Walker
Have you seen an increase or a decrease in some of the, let's say, frequency of these different lawsuits being brought against bitcoin miners? Like is it still kind of building up? Like, are we just in the early stages of this or because of some of the work that's been done, are less of these getting filed? I just, I have no sense for like, yeah, how like what stage are we at in this kind of this process?
- [33:08]
Paula Pendley
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it depends. You know, more minors, more data centers are popping up every day. And you know, there's the big ones and then there's small ones, the big publicly traded ones and there's smaller ones. So I don't, you know, to say it's the, I don't, I don't, I can't answer that. I'm not sureing, I'm, I'm not sure that I'm seeing necessarily an uptick. But with, I know there's these AI computing, you know, huge data centers, I, I just saw this week that another, like it's a, it's another place in small town Texas that has been bought by data center and they're just starting the construction now. So the more that these pop up, I do think the more unfortunately litigation will follow. Just, and that's just the nature of, you know, if you have a solvent company, a, you know, the news has billion dollar companies, things like that, they become a target for, for lawsuits, you know. And so I, I haven't personally necessarily, I can't say that I've seen like this great giant uptick, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is one coming on the horizon.
- [34:32]
Walker
So kind of going to the other side of the coin a little bit because obviously you represent these, these businesses, right? These bitcoin miners. There's obviously the other side of that, which is the people who are filing these. Now granted, you mentioned that a lot of the times it's, let's say, lawyers that are kind of fishing for business, right? They're looking for people to bring together and make a case. But you know, what have you seen from. Because I assume that you've probably, you know, talked to some, some of these actual people who are, you know, making these complaints or just these communities where these miners are operating. What are you seeing as far as the actual, the actual feeling on the ground from people like our communities happy to have these miners? You know, it's, you think about it, it's like, well, I don't know if I would want to be right next door to a giant bitcoin mining operation. But it's like there's going to be more and more of these and more and more data centers popping up everywhere. So like, what are these actually doing for the communities? What are you seeing as far as the legitimate response from people who maybe don't have a different sort of ax to grind, if that makes sense.
- [35:38]
Paula Pendley
Yeah, well, it's. I've noticed that it's very few. It's not that many. It's. But those few have loud voices. Right. And so, you know, it's like you had mentioned earlier how they'll have this big story on something, but then if you really get, you turn the camera, it's five people. Right? But if you, if you get, if you angle the camera a certain way, it can look like a giant crowd. So it's not to say that, you know, some people, you know, it's right. Like you say, you don't. No one wants to live next to something, but it's really communicating to find out and determining what really is the issue. Like what. Okay, so if it get. Is this, is this sound level. Okay. You know, and, and communicating with the people. But. And you. And you. We have found in our experience and these different nuisance cases that we've been involved in it. Once you remedy one little area or one action by doing something, some, some enhancement to the facility, a ton of them are like, thank you so much. That's all I needed. Thank you. And they are gone. But that doesn't mean that there aren't your token 4, 5, 6, that are still the loud ones, creating a lot of noise, you know, going to the media, making the complaints and things like that. And some people just don't, like, you know, I was saying this in Natalie's podcast too. They just don't take yes for an answer. You're like, oh, okay, well, we can't satisfy you. There was no satisfying you from the beginning. It was just a matter of shutting down the company. That's what you really want. And so it doesn't matter how many enhancements you make, because everyone I've worked with, it's like, oh, well, I want to be a good neighbor. And so you do. You go through a huge expense changing certain things and making to make people happy. But then sometimes you just find that some people just, they can't be that, you know, lawsuit was just from the beginning, you were never going to please them. But, you know, a lot of people outside of the small token, few actually are very business friendly. And they are. I mean, you'll see a lot of favorable comments and a lot of these sections. You know, there's all these like, Facebook posts and things like that in the comment section of Twitter posts and things like that where people are like, we, you know, they've, they've helped bring so much tax money to the community. They have helped our emergency services by, you know, donations and by, you know, hosting certain events in the community. You know, in small town Texas, there's all these parades around the fourth of July. They will sponsor the entire thing. They'll sponsor children and scholarships. So there's a ton of giving back that isn't covered in the media and all the favorable things that having a new business in town. And this isn't just, you know, data center only, but just when a business comes to sound, there's. There's a lot of, there's a lot of benefits that actually come from it. And you know, like we were talking earlier, even just in Texas in general, just stabilizing the grid, that's a benefit for all consumers here. And so anyway, so, yeah, I don't. I find that it's actually a very token few, but they make a lot of noise, fortunately.
- [39:02]
Walker
Well, and when you start following the money back to like, you know, Greenpeace specifically, it's like, we know that they got $5 million from Chris Larson, the chairman of the board of Ripple. Like, we know that they were being financed with the explicit intent of trying to demonize proof of work bitcoin mining. Like this, this was, this was their goal. And they, you know, put up 5 million petrodollars to try and advance that goal. And so it's like, okay, you follow the money and you start to realize that even if there are these complaints, some of which may be completely, you know, completely reasonable and have remedies, but a lot of the over, like the overarching push is kind of being directed from some very specialized interests who have really don't actually care at all about the energy usage or the nuisance or anything else. They just care about trying to make bitcoin look bad because they have another, you know, crypto token to try and sell to consumers. So it's like, I feel like that's such a. I wish that you got more coverage of that sort of thing in the media, but apparently not. That doesn't sell as well. You know, everybody wants to find the big bad guy. And bitcoin is. Bitcoin miners seem to be an easy target for that.
- [40:18]
Paula Pendley
Yeah.
- [40:19]
Walker
Do you see, like, is there a legal challenge that you see kind of coming down the pipe potentially for bitcoin miners that, like, is not currently there, but something that you think that they're going to have to grapple with, you know, in the future? Or do you think with this new administration, hopefully at least a federal level, you're going to see more friendliness towards industry more broadly. But Bitcoin mining specifically.
- [40:46]
Paula Pendley
Yeah, I mean I think, well, the current administration has been pretty pro bitcoin. It's kind of been quite amazing. And then they've incentivized these data centers actually. What was the article? I'm trying to remember. But they want big business so there is support there at least publicly. Yeah, I think it's evolving framework right now is outdated. Hopefully once there'll be more clarity. So like I'm not just talking in nuisance but like in fair. They need fair and predictable tax treatment. Right. And they need banking and financial access just like every other company. They need energy policies that acknowledge, you know, bitcoin's role in grid stability and you know, as an energy provider. And so once, once there's a well structured environment that'll benefit bitcoin companies but also like consumers, investors and broader economy, I think that'll support this emerging industry. But yeah, as far as trying to see on the pipe what they're going to face. Well, I mean it's hard to anticipate that. But I do think there is, we're really encouraged now with the current administration that I do think, you know, people are trying, are listening and trying to understand and trying to educate themselves and they're more open to a conversation. But at the end of the day, I mean you have to. It ha. There has to be clarity and in the laws and it has to be consistent for all businesses. And I understand it's evolving into a new technology but it's here to stay. So it ha. You have to move with the new technology. And so I mean listen, there's always going to be lawsuits with big business. I mean they can run from like just like vicarious like when a lawsuit against an employee, like an employee does something while they're under the course and scope of their employment. You know, outsiders are going to, you're going to see suits like that for big companies all the time. But that's not specific to mining or anything like that. But it's, it's not necessarily, I don't, I don't know other than just they have, you know, more, better laws for, for these, for miners and more clarity so that they can comply. Because it's not like doesn't want to comply. These companies want to but they just don't have. It's like the moving target or the whack a mole of what we don't know who we had to report to and what we're, what we're violating. If you don't, if you don't tell us.
- [43:36]
Walker
So, I mean, I do hope that there is a big push for more clarity on this and a recognition that as you said, these bitcoin miners are. They're not just like, they're not stealing the electricity from granny or something like that. You know, they're only going to use the electricity when it's profitable for them to do so. If there's high demand for it and electricity is more expensive, they're not going to use it, they're going to shut off and they can do that. And I mean, I think Texas is just such a fascinating. Like this is really a case study, I think, for other states to look at to say, oh look, they've been able to stabilize the grid to use all this excess power. We don't have to use natural gas peaker plants or whatever else. We, we can literally use bitcoin miners and they can bring jobs and they can bring more tax revenue for us. Like it, it just seems like it's such an obvious thing and that to me that's an indication of how early we still are. Like the fact that it's non obvious to still the majority of people. Like if you go up to 10 random people on the street, you say, do you think bitcoin mining is good or good or bad? And first of all, half of them just won't know what you're talking about. And probably the other four will be like, I read an article that it's, you know, boiling the oceans or something like that from 2020. And then the other person's gonna maybe be like, I don't have an opinion on it. You know, that's a small sample size, granted. But the point being that we are still so early in this, it's. I don't know how long this takes though. Like how, like it does come down to education, as you mentioned earlier, just not just for legislators, but for the average person. So that, you know, people will start to say, you know, hey, we want to, we have a, you know, an aluminum smelting operation that was shut down and we lost tons of jobs, you know, back 10 years ago. We'd love to spin that back up again and we want to bring in bitcoin miners. But like, I think we're maybe a little ways off from getting that kind of public appeal for these things. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it moves, you know, gradually, then suddenly and all of a sudden everybody's clamoring to have a bitcoin miner in their town. I don't know.
- [45:44]
Paula Pendley
Right. I know Maybe. I, yeah, I know, I know that Alcoa plan too because we did some of that litigation way, way, way, way back in the day. But yeah, the grid doesn't work like a household circuit breaker where there's just like unused electricity. It's just going to sit there. Right? It's. The excess energy is either used or wasted. So I think just under, like making sure that people understand that. And how do we get people to understand that? That is the real question. Like how do we get the mainstream media or to really listen? Texas Blockchain Council has come up with amazing. Like even recently there was a report that came out that's it's like all the economic benefits of Texas. I'm butchering the name, but it's like every economic benefit of the, of miners across the country and the top like 20 states or something. And it gives all the economic benefit. It's like a 20 page report that was prepared by, you know, I don't know who funded it, but it was prepared by an independent reporter. And I mean not a reporter, I'm sorry, an independent like group that can, that can statistically analyze that information. But how do you get that report into the news, into widespread news? Because there are a lot of really great reporting like that and we will see it on Twitter or LinkedIn, they'll post something and someone's done a really deep dive. But the challenge is getting it outside of our bitcoin echo chamber and getting it into the homes of the mom and pops. And so that's the challenge. And how do we make it interesting for those people until it impacts you, sometimes you just don't care. But I don't have the solution. I'm just identifying that. I know that's an issue that we're having right now and I do think it's important, you know, kind of maybe even gaining a rapport with some of these reporters and saying you really need to focus on this side of it. You're only telling one side of the story and.
- [47:54]
Walker
It takes time. And I mean the sad thing about the legacy media and I think one of the reasons why it is really dying right now is because they will only focus. Like basically every legacy media outlet essentially became like, tried to replicate the buzzfeed model. Like when buzzfeed first came out and it was, you know, lists of different things and it was all super clickbaity. And instead of being like, no, we're the, you know, we're the mainstream media, we've got to hold ourselves to a higher standard. They Just went all in on that because everything was driven by the incentives.
- [48:23]
Natalie Brunel
For ad revenue for clicks.
- [48:25]
Walker
Right, Exactly. And I feel like. So now they went, you know, from like the, you know, they always used to like to show really dark and disturbing things on the news because again, that's what gets people to watch, you know, just to people like the horror, the car crash, they can't look away from, but then they just took it.
- [48:40]
Natalie Brunel
To the umpteenth degree.
- [48:42]
Walker
But the problem is that that kind of leads them in a direction where they're not actually incentivized to tell the truth or to tell the whole story, to tell it in an unbiased way, an objective way, which is what you're supposed to do. But I think that that's really going to end up being their own demise. It's why they have lower viewership numbers than ever before. It's why they have lower readership numbers than ever before. It's why independent journalists or some, you know, some Joe Blow with a podcast can get better, you know, viewership on a random video than, you know, some local, local reporter will on their hard hitting news segment about, you know, all of the cats murdering pigeons in trees or whatever. It is like, like, it's just, it's a different world now. But I'm, I'm curious, you know, what, what, what made, what made bitcoin, what.
- [49:27]
Natalie Brunel
Made bitcoin click for you?
- [49:29]
Walker
Like, was it going to the conference and just like seeing that this was an actual, like this wasn't just something that, you know, Natalie was into, but this was like, oh wow, this is like this massive, massive thing. There are people from all over the world who are into this. Or was there another moment where it just like finally hit you?
- [49:46]
Paula Pendley
You know, I think, I just think the whole ethos behind it is just so cool and the emerging technology is just so cool. And that's what I think made me gravitate toward it really. Like you can have financial self sovereignty over something that cannot be manipulated. I mean now we really see it with all the inflation, everything after, with COVID and 2021, like we were just on the heel. I mean it was still people storing masks at this first conference. You know, I mean, this and, and all that money being printed at the time, that's when it really clicked on. Like, okay, wait, hold on a second. So we can they, we can hold our doll. The dollar is going to be inflated, but ours is this fixed money supply. It's halved every four years. Every understand supply and demand. And so I was like this, I've got to get on board with this. Is this makes sense. And I think that, you know, it's just my, maybe why I became an adopter. And then obviously I stayed true to just hodling because, you know, I, it's, it's the best performing asset of the last decade, you know, as everyone says. So I just think that I'm going to continue to huddle and then the people I've met in the industry is what made me stay. But I think the thing that clicked with me is really just, it just makes sense. It just, I mean, how annoying is it when you go to a bank and you're like, hey, can I get X amount of dollars out? They're like, yeah, sure, we'll do it in three days. You're like, what? Why? See, that's your money and why it takes money.
- [51:22]
Walker
It's mind blowing.
- [51:23]
Paula Pendley
Yeah. And so to be able to just transfer something like is that fast? I just can't believe we can't do that now. And so bitcoin solves that problem.
- [51:34]
Walker
It was amazing for me like the first time transferring bitcoin to self custody, like the first time you really like, you send a bitcoin transaction. I think it's just like yeah, yeah, it's a little bit like it was nerve wracking. Like I didn't have anybody like walking me through it or anything like that. You know, I'm just, just from my, my reading and you know, maybe I, I don't even think I watched a BTC sessions tutorial before doing it like that. You know, it was, I should have really. But like once you do it and you're like, oh, like I, I, like I just did that. There was no, nobody's asking me to confirm anything. I'm not having to route this through anyone. Like it just happened. Like that is such a, like galaxy brain light bulb moment where you're like this is insane. Like, this is really cool. Like I don't have to ask permission or forgiveness or anything else. I just don't have to ask. I can just do it. And I think that in an era where it seems like everything has a gatekeeper, like whether that be, you know, whether that be, you know, your social media or your money or whatever else, like to not have that is just so refreshing and I, it's crazy to me still that like we're probably at like, I don't know, less than 1% of global adoption.
- [52:42]
Paula Pendley
Like not wild.
- [52:44]
Walker
Like that's just nuts. That's really crazy.
- [52:48]
Paula Pendley
You and then you deal with the. Everyone saying, oh, I'm too late for it. I'm too late for it. I'm like, no, you have no idea.
- [52:55]
Walker
Yeah. Do you have those conversations with your friends still? Like mine. Mine have, like, haven't really even started talking to me about it too much yet. This like this year, it's really like a little bit of when we ran up to over 100k the first time, had some friends, like reach out. But what, what's the vibe you get from like your, your non bitcoin circle? Like, are people talking about it more or does it still feel kind of like it's being ignored again until it pumps like crazy and then they'll all come clamoring in, Right?
- [53:23]
Paula Pendley
It always, always when it pumps is when everyone wants to start talking about it. But yeah, I mean, the general consensus and among my, you know, circle is just, oh, I was too late for it. Dang it. I should have got in when it was, you know, whatever, 30k or something even, you know, and, and so. Or they either will tell me stories about how they sold and they made. They made some money selling and I got, you know, bitcoin, maybe money. And, And I'm like, great, but hold. You're going to wish you held.
- [53:52]
Walker
Yep.
- [53:53]
Paula Pendley
So yeah, that's. I just tell people to continue to hold. But yeah, I do remember the first time when I moved it from self to self custody. It's like I held my breath. I'm like, please, I hope I did this right. But yeah, once you do it, once it becomes a little easier. Um, but, you know, and this, I think predominantly a lot of people are like, well, now it's at 100k or so. I can't. I'm not going to make any money on it. But like stack those stats, friends.
- [54:22]
Walker
That's the thing that always blows my mind is like you start to realize how short people's attention spans really are. Because it's like if you, you know, if you would have asked that same person four years ago, like, you know, do you want to buy? Or however many years ago, it's like, whatever. Like bitcoin always seems too expensive, but it's always, in retrospect, really cheap. Like, it will always seem too expensive at the time, but then you go.
- [54:47]
Natalie Brunel
Forward in time a little bit and.
- [54:48]
Walker
You look back and it will always seem really cheap. Like, oh, why didn't I buy? I buy more. But it's like humans just. Why do we have this? Like insanely. Well, not everyone, but many. It seems have this just. It's like they're only looking at like the next week, month, year. I mean, maybe that's just a function of how broken our system is though, that they're. It's like, well, if it's not going to make me a millionaire overnight, then like, I'm going to look for something else. I don't know.
- [55:12]
Paula Pendley
Yeah, yeah, that is probably part of the ethos too of bitcoiners is just long term, long term thinkers. Um, but yeah, we need that. We need a psychologist. You know, we need someone on to tell us why the human. Why the human, why we just can't think so far in advance or why we have such regret. I mean, they probably have all kinds of studies on this because it's, you know, related to like gamblers too. You know, when do you leave the table, that kind of thing. Um, so I don't know. It's. But yeah, you need a. You need a psych person to really study us.
- [55:49]
Walker
Yeah, there, there's. Well, I'm. I'm sure. I mean, what. The one that I can think of that got widely publicized was the article where they were like, you know, clinical psychologist says that, you know, bitcoin holders possess what they call like the dark triad of personality traits. It was like narcissism. Like, this is where like the bitcoin psychopath thing like, came from. Because of course, as bitcoiners do, you know, somebody insults them thinking they're insulting them and they're like, you know what, actually being like a toxic psychopath sounds. Sounds pretty cool. Yeah. Okay, so we're all just toxic bitcoin psychopaths. Like, that's the best thing to do though. Somebody insults you and just turn it around, wear it as a badge and take their power away from them.
- [56:28]
Natalie Brunel
And luckily bitcoiners are very good at that.
- [56:31]
Paula Pendley
Right, right. Been dealing with it quite a long time. So.
- [56:35]
Walker
Yeah. For real.
- [56:37]
Paula Pendley
Yeah.
- [56:37]
Walker
You know, speaking of ethos more broadly, I'm curious, do you see kind of a natural intersection between law and bitcoin? Do you see this as something that like, does. Are the reasons that you got into law, do you think somehow also intertwined with the reasons that bitcoin attracted you? Like, do you see a sort of a confluence there?
- [57:01]
Paula Pendley
Well, I can see you're. It's really, really interesting thought. And the law at its best, it's supposed to be the ultimate equalizer. You have a right to a fair trial, right to due process, just like anyone has the right to use the bitcoin network. Right. So there is that similarity there. The system doesn't care if you're rich or poor or what gender you are. The same will supply with Bitcoin. So I think bitcoin, it does operate on that absolute fairness. There's no bailout that's going to come, no discrimination or favoritism. Whereas you'll see in traditional finance that banks, your banking, your credit, your investment opportunities are based a lot on privilege and things like that, which that doesn't apply and it shouldn't apply in the legal scheme and definitely not in bitcoin. So but I guess the real distinction with law and you know, as, you know, as much as law is, you know, it's supposed to have a right to a fair trial subject to 12 members or a jury. And 12 members of a jury all come from different backgrounds. They've all had a different experiences, they have different biases, you know, and so, and a judge, sometimes you get a judge on a bad day, sometimes you get a judge on a good day and stuff like that. So that's a real distinction between like the law in Bitcoin. But I mean, yeah, technically, yeah, the law is supposed to be an equalizer. But you have, you know, in some, in my experience in trials you do voir dires and it's all voidir is very different in or jury selection is very different depending on what state you're in or what judge you have. So sometimes I have experience being in jury selection for, I'm not even joking, a month and a half. It is the most comprehensive jury and my God, selection and that I've ever experienced. But then I've also been in trials where you get to ask like one question. So you have to think, I mean, the reason why you even have wadir and you have the jurors there is so that you can smoke out anyone that may have a bias that's going to prevent them from being able to evaluate only the evidence that's put in front of them during trial. Because everyone has a bias, no matter. I mean, everyone's had a different experience. So you come into the courtroom and we acknowledge them. We say, please. You know, we acknowledge that everyone has these biases and that you've come in with different experiences. But the question really is, can you set that aside? Can you set that aside and for the time that you're actually in the courtroom, can you listen to only the evidence and then apply whatever evidence that you hear in this courtroom, evaluate it as you may, you know, it's credible to you or if it's not, you can dismiss it, but then apply it to what the law is that you are given at the end of trial. And that is when you have to come down to your decision. And that is what you base your decision on, only and only that. And that's what you have to get. Make sure that you have a jury. But sometimes, you know, sometimes you don't get to do a voir dire like that. And sometimes you just get the first 12 in the box, and that's what you have to go with. And you're like, okay, that's rock and roll with that. So that's kind of a distinction between law and bitcoin. But, yeah, I mean, there's alignment there, but it's the best we can do. It's the judicial system that we have, and I think it's the best one out there. But it doesn't have. It's not without its flaws.
- [60:43]
Walker
I just learned a new word today, which is voir dire. So now I've got a new one in my repertoire. That's. That's fascinating, though, because, I mean, I was really, as a non. I am not a legally educated and trained person. And so I was thinking of it very much from, like, the. The high level. Like, what is the law supposed to be? But you bring up a great point, which is, like, there's what the law is supposed to be and how it's what. Who it's supposed to protect, which is, you know, everybody. But then there's the realities in the ground, which is people, humans, we, you know, have biases. And it's. It's kind of a. It's a great analogy, though, just given that it's like, okay, bitcoin removes those humans from the law. The code is the law.
- [61:25]
Natalie Brunel
Right.
- [61:25]
Walker
And that's the whole thing. It's like, you don't need a jury selection to determine the blocks. It's whoever discovered it first. And so I think it's interesting, maybe bitcoin's a model for what the law should be. Perhaps on. On the laws that. I'm curious. I mean, I saw. Just today, I saw this guy, he was in Belgium, and he had. He posted a tweet. I still say tweet. He had posted a post, I guess, on X. Just posts, which just sounds lame, but he had posted on X that basically Belgium uses these AI tools to basically, I guess, surveil and then analyze group chats, and they give you a toxicity rating for, like, if you're saying things that the AI trawler deems as racist, sexist, whatever it may be. But there's all these slip ups to it. Like you could be quoting somebody else and saying like this, like what a moron this guy is for saying this. But it would still, because it had all these toxic remarks in it, it would mark it as toxic. Point is he got a very toxic score. He's currently facing like a massive fine in jail time. And I was just wondering like, do you think that we're going to start seeing more like AI involvement in law? And I listened to yours and Natalie's show and you guys talked about kind of using AI as a tool for your legal work. But I mean more so like at a higher level, like you know, is an AI judge going to remove the human component that you just mentioned? Like remove that fallibility or, or does that just add another layer of problems? Because it's like well, who trained the AI? What were they trained on? Does that, have you thought about that at all? Like just what does that. Like it seems a little bit like cypher cyberpunk dystopian. But like I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here now.
- [63:19]
Paula Pendley
Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean I do know that there is a K. I mean this was a, it was a like a DUI case or something. It was a, this massive case. Probably like a two day trial. One day trial. I and they use this is here in America. I'll have to find it. We'll have to google it or something after this. But he put in an AI in his ear. This is a non lawyer put an AI in his ear and it was asking like the judge would ask questions and it would give the answer, you know, like he would wait for the AI to tell him what to say and then he would say anyway. It was apparently a huge fail, big flop. Like it was just, it wasn't accurate hallucinating. You know, they probably just hadn't worked out the kinks yet. But it was a, it was an interesting case study to try to see what would happen. But that's more on assisting with, you know, maybe a legal argument if so or you know, someone doesn't want to have to pass the bar to represent themselves. Sue Sponte, another term.
- [64:27]
Walker
There you go.
- [64:28]
Paula Pendley
But they, yeah, so you know, maybe that, that offers people who maybe don't want to have legal counsel. You know, it would offer them the opportunity to maybe have the law in their ear, but they just have to work out the tweaks of it. Now to answer your question, about whether or not a judge is going to be replaced with an AI. I absolutely do not think that will ever happen. I don't think the, the founders were even contemplating that at the time. I don't, I think a lot, a lot, a lot would change if we were, you know, but although, you know, there are, there are small claims cases, small claims court, and that is depending on what jurisdiction you are. I don't know most jurisdictions like $5,000 or less. So this is for people that don't jam up the big court systems with or the dockets of a big, of a big court for a small claim case. And you go stand their judges and small claim case. But you don't have a jury, you just kind of, you show up, you don't need a lawyer for it and you, it's kind of like the people's Court, you know, that you see on TV or judges and things like that. Perhaps a judge Jude. I mean I can see something like that where it's you know, a dispute of whatever $2,000 rent issue, landlord, tenant issue or something like that. Maybe, maybe the, in years from now we'll be open to having someone just, you know, rule on it. I mean save a lot of, a lot of money, take over jobs. I don't know. There's so many things I'm thinking through right now, but I, I do, I think might actually there might be a market there in the future for small claims, very small claims, but or small disputes or even mediation because sometimes your, your, your required is called court mandated mediation and sometimes the judge before they'll see you say go hire a mediator or use a public mediator that, that the state plays for to try to talk it out first. Don't jam up our court docket right now with something like that. So a mediator could be an AI, you know, where you know, someone writes everything they want to write on one side and then another one writes everything that they think is wrong on the other side and then you have a mediator that you know, get issues in a ruling. So anyway, let's coin that we'll go into business together. I was just gonna say NDA everyone.
- [66:47]
Walker
Yep. I'm gonna have to delete this part from the podcast. We can't have this, this idea getting.
- [66:52]
Paula Pendley
Out there just like as we're talking to like Kanigi.
- [66:55]
Walker
You know, actually not a bad idea. I mean but this is the crazy thing about, I feel like we're at this time where like technology is, is like I guess technology always seems like, it's moving fast probably to everybody at every point in history. Like, you know, when the telephone was coming out, they were probably like, my God, things are really moving at high speed here. You know, like cars driving instead of the horse drawn carriages. It's like we're living in the future. Yeah, but I think that rate of change accelerates and it gets harder and harder to predict actually how much is going to change and how quickly it will change. But yeah, either way, I think we've got ourselves a great business idea on our hands.
- [67:33]
Paula Pendley
We'll start a mediator AI company.
- [67:37]
Walker
I love it. I love it. Paul, I want to be conscious of your time here. I did want to just ask also. I mean, is there any advice that you have because you've been able to now transition a successful law career into a successful law career in bitcoin? I think there's a lot of bitcoiners out there who have a, you know, a very particular skill set or highly skilled in whatever their industry may is, may be.
- [68:03]
Natalie Brunel
Excuse me.
- [68:04]
Walker
And kind of wish, like I, I wish I could somehow find a way to incorporate bitcoin into this. Do you have any advice for people about, you know, just lessons you learned along this process? Like maybe even just how, how did you actually make the decision to say, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take my skill set and move it to start to work in bitcoin. How do you actually get there?
- [68:24]
Paula Pendley
Yeah, well, in honesty, it took a while. It really did. It took a couple of. Like I said, I started trying to do the estate planning thing. It just didn't work out. It just didn't make sense. So, you know, sometimes you just have to test an area and know when to walk away and say, okay, you know what, maybe I have to wait for the opportunity to come to or to me, identify it later. It'll make sense when it pops up. And that's kind of what ended up happening for me. So I was, I just really stayed in contact, kept my, you know, I. Obviously listening to podcasts and things like that. I would have ideas. I think they need help in this area. Well, I don't really, I'm not. I don't really do that, you know, and I, you know, obviously don't want to take in a case that I don't feel like I'm competent in handling. So there's. There. You just have to kind of keep your ear to the ground. And that's what. And that's really what happened. I mean, I was talking to Natalie one day and she told me about some nuisance cases. And I was like, wait, I've tried multiple nuisance cases like this. And. And then I. It's not like I pitched anyone or anything like that. It wasn't. But it was just becoming involved. I was involved in the Texas blockchain council at the time. So I was. That's how I got the referral. So, you know, it's things like that. But I guess my advice then, if you're asking for my advice, it would to become involved in as many things bitcoin related possible. And then write down, you can almost think about, okay, what are my skill sets? What have I been trained to do? And where is their overlap? And it might not be automatic, but, you know, I'm part of this Dallas bitcoin meetup group. So I talk to people about that, I tell them what I do. Over time, it'll just come, you know, it'll eventually come to you. Business will come to you. Someone will have a great idea, you know, and talk. So, you know, it might not be overnight, but I give it time and I think there'll be a. An over. You'll find an overlap.
- [70:28]
Walker
I think that's, that's great advice. And I mean, just my personal experience has been that. And it. Maybe it won't stay this way forever because right now the, you know, bitcoiner community is still relatively small on a grand scale. But bitcoiners are so willing to make connections and to reach out a helping hand. Or like there's. It's not like a zero sum mentality. It's kind of like a rising tide lifts all boats mentality. It's positive sum. It's like, oh, I can help you with this. Or like, it just. I've had a very positive experience in that regard, and it sounds like you have too. And so I would also encourage people like, you know, bitcoin. Bitcoin needs as many people working for it as possible because, like, you know, we are the network ultimately. And so I think that's. I hope that more people hear this story and say, you know what? Okay, this is what I need. I need to get more involved. I need to talk to more people. I need to see if I can put my skills to use.
- [71:21]
Paula Pendley
Yeah. And another thing, like, for example, just with that great example, it is the people I love, the people of the. Of like the bitcoin. I can't emphasize that enough. Everyone is so interesting and, you know, just thought provoking and just so many ideas. Are you Know, conversations are all around ideas and I just love the, the people of this community too. And so that's enough. So through the community, I also, maybe I don't do a certain area of law, for example. So someone came to me within, you know, our friend group that we've. That and needed some amending to a structure from an LP to a master feeder. Okay. I don't do hedge fund work, but I have a colleague that helped do that and got it done in two weeks. So that's another way. And now she knows what I do and I know that she can do that. And so through the, through the, like the web of friendships that you make in this world and learning what everyone does, always finding out, whenever you have a conversation, we always find out what they do and then you can. You send them stuff and, and I'm one of those people that believes if you send something out, it will return. It's like a boomerang. So send out help, give, give value to other people and then they'll. It'll come back to you, maybe not through that person, but through another way. And, and you know, it. It's relationships. The world turns on relationships.
- [72:49]
Natalie Brunel
I'm.
- [72:49]
Walker
I'm with you on that. You put good out into the world and good tends to come back and, and usually come. Comes back even more than you put out. So it's. Yeah, I could not agree more with that last thing. And then because I appreciate you not, you know, having any billable hours for me here for, for taking your time is there without holding you to this and because I don't know what you're actually allowed to say as a lawyer, like, if you can like give legal advice without it being legal advice, like financial people, you know, not financial advice either way.
- [73:20]
Paula Pendley
Right.
- [73:21]
Walker
Like, is there like, legal advice? Yeah. None of this is legal advice. But is as a lawyer, is there anything that you have that's like generalized legal, not advice, guidance? Is that a word you can use, like something that, that you would look at this and say, like, this is something like you should be aware of specifically as a bitcoiner, I don't know if you know, I know a lot of your work deals obviously with, with businesses. But like, on an individual level, is there anything that you look at and you're like, you know, this is something bitcoiners should either maybe be really careful.
- [73:52]
Natalie Brunel
About or be aware of.
- [73:53]
Walker
Is there anything like that? Oh, gosh, don't mean to put you on the spot.
- [73:58]
Paula Pendley
No. And it just individualize what people you know, I Just stay, stay on top of the exchanges that you use for, for like holding Bitcoin, you know, because there are some just, I don't know, maybe because there are issues with them freezing some of the assets and there are issues with like asset recovery and they won't allow you to liquidate it and sometimes they'll send it to the state. So there are issues there. So make sure you trust where you're putting, where you're buying, where you're holding and things like that. That's. Because that might be something that's going to be an issue long term. And I know that they're trying to figure out the kinks on that, but I don't know that, that, that kind of sometimes keeps me up in a little bit.
- [74:55]
Walker
So, so the really, the advice there is, is take custody of your own keys, put it in, put it in cold storage and, and make sure that you don't need to worry about an exchange freezing you. Yeah, that's. I've, I see a lot of tweets about that or posts about that. Excuse me. And it's not something I want to need to deal with because it also seems like for most of these exchanges, especially like the big ones like Coinbase, like you're just never gonna be able to get somebody from customer support on the line. Like they just, they just don't care. They've got some algorithm that flags your funds and then like, good luck. Like it's, you know, not your keys, not your coins.
- [75:31]
Paula Pendley
Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I don't know if that's very helpful, but.
- [75:36]
Walker
No, I, I think giving the advice to not trust exchanges is always helpful for people, especially if they're new to the space. Paul, I really appreciate you taking the time here out of your day. Where should people find you? I'll make sure to link your X account. We've got to get you on Nostr also. I'm going to hold you to that. I'm going to keep badgering you about it, but anywhere else you want to send people, anything you want to direct people towards.
- [76:02]
Paula Pendley
Sure, yeah, I mean, you can find me. I work at a law firm called Nelson Mullins and so you can just, whatever, Google Paula Pendley, Nelson Mullins, you can find my bio there. It has all of my contact information. I'm. Yeah, I'm on X. Paula Pendley Law is I, is my handle. And yeah, LinkedIn. All the usual suspects of places that you can find.
- [76:25]
Walker
Find me and, and on Noster soon, which I will, I will hold. Yes, I, I will be. I will be holding you to that.
- [76:31]
Paula Pendley
Yeah, I'll download it after this. This pod.
- [76:34]
Walker
There we go. That's what I love to hear. Well, Paula, thank you so much for your time. Great catching up. Hope to see you. I'll see you at the bitcoin conference.
- [76:42]
Paula Pendley
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'll see you in May. Hopefully before then. That's too long, but.
- [76:46]
Walker
Yeah, I agree. I agree. We'll have to do something about that so we can brainstorm this new business venture we have as well.
- [76:52]
Paula Pendley
Exactly. We need to bring Carla on board. We'll all get together.
- [76:55]
Walker
Absolutely. I'm here for it. Okay, Paula, thanks so much. It was great talking to you.
- [77:00]
Paula Pendley
Great talking to you. Bye.
- [77:08]
Natalie Brunel
And that's a wrap on this bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast. If you are a bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring the bitcoin podcast, head to bitcoin podcast.net sponsor or send an email to hello Bitcoin podcast.net. if you are enjoying the bitcoin podcast and find it valuable, give it a boost on Fountain, a five star review wherever you're listening or or better yet, share this show with your network so more people can learn about bitcoin. Or don't. Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it. You can grab links in the show notes to watch or list this show wherever you get your podcasts. Or go to bitcoin podcast.net podcast and you'll also find the links to follow me and the show on Noster and on X. Bitcoin is scarce. There will only ever be 21 million. But Bitcoin podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.