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THE Bitcoin Podcast
Libertarian Kingmakers, Lawfare, and the Fight for Bitcoin Prisoners | Angela McArdle
01:32:29
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- [00:00]
Angela
The dynamic that is emerging right now is we will, anytime you innovate or do something new, we will take your bitcoin and then we will throw it in our strategic reserve. There's no law about hiding dollars under your mattress. It's a free speech issue. It's a privacy issue. They don't want us to have financial freedom. Congress needs to pass some things protecting bitcoin. I hate to say it, it has to become like economic Gaza. They're not going to support politicians who go after bitcoin. It's a self licking ice cream cone. Like it exists to grow. It's going to grow and grow and get great, great big like a big old tumor. Don't brag too much about how much bitcoin you have. You're going to have. You're going to have people coming after you.
- [00:49]
Walker
Greetings and salutations my fellow plebs. My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast Bitcoin. Bitcoin continues to make new blocks every 10 minutes and the value of one bitcoin is still one bitcoin. If you are listening to this right now, remember you're still early. This episode is brought to you by Blockware. What if you could lower your tax bill and stack bitcoin at the same time? Well, with blockware you can. New US tax rules let miners write off 100% of their mining hardware in a single year. So earn bitcoin daily while saving big come tax season. The get started at mining.blockwaresolutions.com Titcoin use the code Titcoin to get $100 off your first miner when using the Blockware marketplace. This is not tax advice so go speak to the team at Blockware to learn more. That's mining blockwaresolutions.com Titcoin Head to the Show Notes for links to find the show on centralized social media platforms and on Noster. Or just go directly to bitcoinpodcast.net you'll find it all there and kind reminder that you can support this show by becoming a paid subscriber on Fountain. Or don't. Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it. Without further ado, let's get into this bitcoin talk. Angela, great to have you here. I've been looking forward to this for a while. I think it was. I'm trying to think what it was that finally reminded me that I needed to have you on this show. I believe it was a poem that either you or AI wrote. I'm not sure, perhaps about government shutdowns, I'm trying to remember, but it was some sort of a poem or a limerick of sorts where I was like, you know what?
- [02:26]
Angela
I should reach out the night before the shutdown, maybe something like that.
- [02:30]
Walker
Yes, that was it. That was it. I appreciated it. And yeah, I was like, you know what? It's about time for me to reach out. So thank you for coming on here. It's really a pleasure and an honor to have you on here.
- [02:42]
Angela
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
- [02:45]
Walker
There are a bunch of things I want to talk with you about because you've been quite a. You came on my radar, like, a number of years ago, and you've been quite at the center of a lot of things. Not that you're trying to put yourself at the center, but more so people. You know, people have been paying attention to you because you've been getting things done. You've taken a very interesting and pragmatic approach, I think, to libertarianism as it relates to the political party's activism. And I think, obviously gotten some incredible results, like, you know, playing basically the key role in getting Ross Freed, which was, I think everybody who is not a complete statist Cuck believes is an incredible thing. So thank you for that. I mean, maybe. Can we just maybe start out. How did you actually get into becoming involved politically with the Libertarian Party? Like, what was that? I think you were working in law for a number of years. How did you actually get into, like, being politically very active, like, deciding that you needed to go down that path?
- [03:43]
Angela
So, first of all, I want to say getting active in the Libertarian Party and rising through their ranks is. It's actually not that hard if you have a very high tolerance for being, like, irritated. It's, you know, you just have to, like, be able to withstand things that are annoying. Yeah, My. My background is, you know, just civil litigation. Paralegal. I do a lot of. I was, you know, working with attorneys that do constitutional law, especially when it comes to real estate and real property, complex business litigation. I don't. I don't know. Right. Just like, dealing. Dealing with lawsuits. I really like lawsuits. I think it's very fun. And I was generally active in local politics in the city of la. So I worked on. I helped this group called Monday Night Mission over a decade ago overturn a proposed ban on food. They called it food sharing and Public Rights of way, which is feeding homeless people, which is totally nuts. And that's a whole nother rabbit hole. Right. But, you know, they had this, this motion that they were going to pass and it was like pretty much in the bag. Everybody was in support of it and in about eight days we flipped it PR wise and held a huge protest and smacked it down. And we brought together there were like left wing anarchist groups like Food Not Bombs, who I was also involved in a little bit, you know, very right leaning church groups and it was really fun to like, you know, win, win. And there's a lot of issues with the homeless community in la, but those are not going to be solved by telling people you literally can't. It was, the law was so out of control. It was that you weren't going to be allowed to have a picnic in the park with your friends. Obviously there was going to be selective enforcement. But the way that it was written is you literally cann share food in public, which is just, you know, it's nuts. I'm like, this is not how we solve problems as typical government like insanity. So you know, after that I worked on a number of other issues. I worked on a medical freedom initiative. California's got one of the worst medical freedom situations in the country. I worked to try to overturn a ban on religious exemptions for vaccines in, in schools. We pretty much got the number of signatures to do a referendum. But there was, it was my first, first time encountering feds and subterfuge and it was like hundreds of boxes of signatures were stolen. So it was a, it was a really eye opening experience. Yeah. And so after that I started getting involved in the Libertarian Party and like, I think I'd gone to a couple of like events or meetups in 2020, 2014, you know, and then I kind of circled back in 2016 and decided to get active and it was like a small, scrappy, you know, group of people. But I was very interested. You know, I'm like, well where, where do the Libertarians go? And I was like, well, they go to Panera Bread and argue about stuff but occasionally, occasionally get things done. So that was kind of like my very first entry into it. Wow.
- [06:55]
Walker
Okay. Yeah, I didn't know that Panera was the go to meeting place of, I.
- [07:00]
Angela
Mean for that group. It was, you know, they had a very lively, lively meeting at Panera Bread. Just took over half the restaurant.
- [07:08]
Walker
Well, you know, I can, I can imagine the rest of the folks there were probably quite confused and maybe a little. Yeah, they're like, what is the non statism happening there? That must have been shocking.
- [07:17]
Angela
Lots of like a giant horde of people in taxationist Theft shirts. So like, what is this?
- [07:23]
Walker
I, I love it. I love it. Well, so, okay, so that's interesting. I mean, there's probably a bunch of different rabbit holes to go down there and we can maybe circle back on some. But I, I wanted to maybe ask a little bit too about the, the whole situation with Ross because I think this is something that was particularly contentious for a lot of folks within the Libertarian Party. This idea that you were somehow in the Libertarian Party was somehow, you know, like kowtowing to Trump and trying to, you know, this was like, what are we doing putting our, our support behind a, you know, a red or blue team candidate? You know, we should be, you know, focused on, you know, the third way. But then like, it, like, it worked like Ross, Ross, you know, thank God. Like Ross is free now. He's back with his family. It's incredible. Like I. Seeing seeing that image of him walking out of the jail holding that little plant was like one of the just. I mean that must have just been incredible for you. That was incredible for anyone, I think. But like just surreal, amazing. Like just wow. But can you, can you talk about that a little bit? Because I think this kind of goes to this deeper philosophy that I've seen from, from listening to you speak and, and seeing, you know, various posts that you've had. You, you have a very pragmatic approach to how you view the role of the like of a third party. Can you talk about that a little bit and maybe talk about it first in the context of Ross and getting Ross free and like actually driving some sort of meaningful action? What if you could lower your tax bill and stack bitcoin at the same time? Well, by mining bitcoin with block new tax guidelines from the big beautiful bill, allow American miners to write off 100% of the cost of their mining hardware in a single tax year. That is right, a 100% write off. So if you have $100,000 in capital gains or income, you can purchase $100,000 worth of miners and offset it entirely. Blockware's mining as a service enables you to start mining right now without lifting a finger. Blockware handles everything from, from securing the miners to sourcing low cost power to configuring the mining pool. They do it all. You get to stack bitcoin at a discount every single day while also saving big come tax season. Get started today by going to mining.blockwaresolutions.com Titcoin Again, that's mining.blockware solutions.com Titcoin Use the code Titcoin to get $100 off your first miner when using the Blockware Marketplace. Of course, none of this is tax advice from me. Go speak with the team at Blockware to learn more. One more time. That is mining.blockwaresolutions.com tidcoin wish you could access cash without selling your Bitcoin? LEDN makes that possible. The global leader in Bitcoin backed lending, LEDN has issued over $10 billion in loans since 2018 and has a perfect record of protecting client assets. Why is a leaden loan different? Well, with custody loans, collateral is not lent out to generate interest. No credit checks, no monthly payments. Apply in minutes and repay whenever you want with zero penalties and proof of reserves. Reports verified by a top accounting firm are published every six months. LEDN gives Bitcoin holders a secure, transparent way to unlock liquidity without selling. Learn more@ledden IO Walker. That's L E D N dot I O forward slash Walker.
- [10:50]
Angela
Yeah, I mean it's like you can call it pragmatic. It's like the mechanics of it is more like crawling through broken glass to get something done. It is, it is really challenging to move the needle in libertarian circles. So I have a huge appreciation for, you know, libertarian academia. You know, like I'm a die hard Mises Institute supporter. You know, I chair nationally the Mises Caucus, which is, you know, not officially affiliated, but we were inspired by Ludwig von Mises and all the work done by the Mises Institute. But academia doesn't move the needle politically and it often becomes a circular firing squad. And you'll see this academic saying, these guys aren't real libertarians and this isn't that, you know, and this big fight. And there's so much I want to unpack here. You know, formerly in the Libertarian Party, there was this group called the Pragmatist Caucus. And I thought, well, that's interesting, like, because they're like, liberty doesn't happen overnight. And so when I look at what the Pragmatist Caucus is doing, like they just wanted to take pragmatic positions, not move the needle forward. I felt like nobody was really trying to actually advance. Like we just want to come up with the best policy position or the best idea or theory. But I'm like, well, why don't we just do the thing, right? Nobody wants to do the thing. So, you know, I kind of started tinkering, trying things like let's hold a giant anti war rally with a bunch of like leftists, right? Because they're the only other People, There's a handful of people who are really mad about United States participation in the Russia, Ukraine war. So that was like a big thing, you know, and we had some former, you know, Tulsi Gabbard was a speaker there and Ron Paul. So I started just kind of trying things, you know, and it would blow things up. I'm like, well, why don't we work with this group on candidate support so our candidates can be less cringe. You know, people get mad about that. So when Rick Grinnell approached me about Donald Trump, I was very open to the idea because I was like, I just want to do something. I just want to, like, make it happen. So it was like, I don't know, seven in the morning, some hour that I'm not awake and I have a two year old and he, you know, his entire, like life, he's a late night baby. So 7am is early for me when you have a child who goes to bed at midnight and, you know, wakes up all night to breastfeed. So it's like 7am in the morning, late 2023, and I get this text message from Rick Grinnell saying, oh, hey Angela, my name's Rick. I got your number from some mutual friends. I don't know what form, I don't know what mutual friends I have with a former acting Director of National Intelligence. So it was a little like, kind of, kind of unnerving, right? He's like, you know, we really want to know what the libertarians think about President Trump. So I had a cup of coffee and composed myself. And then I was like, responded and Rick called me and I did this thing that libertarians don't do, which is I was very diplomatic and I said, you know, like, it's a, you know, we have a lot of thoughts. We really like that he didn't start any new wars. We weren't really crazy about the drone strikes on General Suleimani. You know, different views on borders within the libertarian movement. But, you know, we love that he shook things up and we're very sympathetic to him that he experienced lawfare and we hope he beats it because it's, because it's gross and wrong. And so I think, whoop, I'm losing my headphones. Sorry.
- [14:46]
Walker
Okay.
- [14:47]
Angela
I think that went over really well. Right. And so Rick was like, oh, let's keep talking. I'm not on his campaign team, but I'm a friend of his, you know, so. So I met with Rick. He like flew down to meet us from wherever. I think he lives on a Plane. I don't think he lives in a house. I think he just flies all over the place. And. And we had dinner with him, so it was very surreal. He was a. He was a former ambassador to Germany under President Trump's first administration. He's running the Kennedy center right now, I think, and was, like, the special diplomat to Venezuela and problem countries, um, in this most recent administration. And so we're having. We're having dinner with Rick, talking about President Trump, me, my husband and my. He was, like a year old at the time. Almost a year old. Sorry, my cat is just screaming. Can you not do that? We're in an interview.
- [15:42]
Walker
Don't worry. Pets are always welcome on this show.
- [15:45]
Angela
Okay, good. Debbie. She's chonky and always hungry. Chunky, spoiled house cats, like a lot of libertarians. And so, anyway, Rick was like, president Trump's gonna call you right now. So he's just. He just called on Rick's phone, and Rick just passed the phone to me, and I was just, like, sitting in this just, like, very, like, average restaurant in South Austin while Rick Grinnell holds my toddler. And I talked to Donald Trump on the phone, and I was like, what is my life? You know, it was crazy. And he was really sweet and grandfatherly, and he was like. He'd gone through my Twitter at least five minutes of research about me, which I thought was very classy. Yeah. And I appreciated. And we just, you know, like, he was like, I want to get the vote. How do I get the Libertarian vote? That Joe Jorgensen, she cost me the 2020 election. The Democrats were stealing, but Joe Jorgensen, he knew all about. He was like, she got 5%. I was like, no, sir, she did not get 5%. But she did cost you the election, probably. I was like, Democrats stole from her, too, you know, by the way, 40,000 votes of hers. Poof. Disappeared in Pennsylvania. So, you know, basically, I was like, I can't, like, endorse you, put you on the ballot. Make it happen. That's just not, like. It's just not technically possible. But I can help you win the small l. Libertarian vote. Like, if you want to compete for our votes, I can show you how to do that policy. You know, like, commitments. There's all kinds of things. And he was like, yes, yes, I want the vote. I want the vote. Let's keep. Keep talking to Rick. Let's keep. Let's keep talking. Let's work on it. I mean, that was the beginning of it, right? And so, you know, we continue to. To talk with Rick. And we got invited to go down to Mar A Lago, like, just a couple of weeks later. And the whole time I'm thinking, like, what am I going to ask? You know? And. And Rick is like, the President is a deal maker. He's not a regular politician. You make the biggest ask you can, and he'll work on it. Maybe he'll work it down, you'll negotiate it. But don't be afraid to make a big ask. So I started thinking, and I'm sure you could figure out what I came up with. Yeah. So I am thinking, like, what do the libertarians want to see in the Fed? This and that? All kinds of things. Right. But I'm like, well, what can the President do? What can he actually just do on his own? And. And what is gonna make all the libertarians just go absolutely crazy? And it's gotta be whatever my ask is, it's gotta be just wrapped in emotional appeal that is so important. It's gotta be, like, a really good return on investment for him, and it's gotta just, like, it's gotta tug on people's heartstrings. And I was like, it's free, Russ Ulbricht. That's it. Like, that's the ask, you know? And Rick was like, make the ask. So, yeah, so I did. Right.
- [18:46]
Walker
Did you just, like, come. Come out with it, like, right away? Did you kind of, like, warm up the conversation or did he get right into it?
- [18:52]
Angela
No, we, we. We waited. I got to Mar A Lago, we're having dinner. It's like, me, Rick, and just a couple of his staffers, trusted people. And President Trump was late because he was testifying in a Southern District of New York trial at that moment. So he was like, 20 minutes late. Yeah. It's so surreal. And he comes running in and, you know, everybody stands up to meet him, and he has such a presence. And the first thing he did was actually he apologized for being late. And he's like the master of this, like, side hug. If you've ever seen him hug people, it's crazy. And so I get, like, the masterful Trump side hug. And he's like, I'm sorry, I'm late, I'm late. I came straight from trial, but I got a lot to say. It's just like, from an attorney, from a trial perspective, having a client who will not get off the stand. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I cannot even imagine. So we sit down for dinner, and we had already ordered because he had texted ahead telling us to order our food. So our food comes out and he's. He looks at my. It was like a tenderloin or a steak. And he's like, send that back. It's not done. Because I'd ordered my food rare. And Rick's like, president Trump. It's okay. He's like, oh, sorry, sorry. You're probably healthier than I am. So I got to eat my food. Yeah, he ordered his. His. His steak well done, and he ate it with ketchup. And he did have a diet, so.
- [20:03]
Walker
That is true. I've heard that's 100% true.
- [20:05]
Angela
Yeah.
- [20:05]
Walker
O.
- [20:06]
Angela
He was also very sweet to his wait staff, which I also thought was a very good sign that they were comfortable around him. Nobody was tiptoeing around him. It's like, this is like a real person. You know, we've all been to dinner with someone who's just, like, tyrannical and horrible to the waitresses. It's so uncomfortable.
- [20:24]
Walker
So it's usually a good sign, like, about a person.
- [20:26]
Angela
Yeah, it was a good sign. We talked about drug war. He's asking my. My boyfriend, my husband, have you ever smoked weed? So crazy. You know? He's like, it's okay. You can tell me. I'm so sorry. I lost a headphone. Can you still hear me? Okay?
- [20:45]
Walker
Can still hear you loud and clear.
- [20:46]
Angela
Okay, good. I can still hear you. We'll just. We'll just let that one go. So we were talking about that. We were talking about the border crisis, like, oh, you know, maybe drug dealers, death penalty, maybe not such a good idea. He was totally open to everything we were saying, which is just totally wild. We're talking about how important economics is, the treasury, foreign policy, you know, and we're just kind of, like, brainstorming. I was like, what if you moved marijuana from, like, class one to class two? You know, that won't be quite so controversial with the Republicans, you know, and it would balance out your fentanyl stuff. And he was just really open. He's like, oh, this, oh, that. You know, what do you think? You know? So finally it's like, well, what do I do? What's the most important thing to get the vote? And. And he wanted to speak at our convention. He's like, can you make that happen? Can I speak at your national convention? And I'm like, well, that'll be political suicide for me internally. But, yeah. So that's why I wrapped it up in a nice little bow. I said, I think if you come to our convention and you say you walk out on stage and you say, you'll free Ross Ulbricht. I think you can come to the convention if you do that. And I think that, first of all, everyone's heads will explode. They will all scream. They will all vote for you. All the Libertarians and the Bitcoiners will vote for you, and they'll give you their money. And he went, huh? Who's Russ Ulbert? I'll do it. I'll walk out on stage and I'll say, free Russ Ubert. Mic drop. And I just, like. I mean, I had been, you know, stressing over this for a few weeks. I'm, like, praying about it. I'm thinking, like, do this. It has to happen. Because I can't get his hopes up, his mother's hopes up, you know, Right. I was, like, tied up. And it's just. He's just like, yeah, I'll do it. It's just. It was insanity. That was. I didn't even know what to think.
- [22:52]
Walker
Just like that.
- [22:53]
Angela
Just like that. Just like, wow.
- [22:57]
Walker
And then, I mean, and he actually did do it, right? Like, it wasn't. It wasn't bluster. He did follow through. And he followed through not just with commuting the sentence, but with a full pardon. Was that part of the initial ask, or did that happen, like, later? Is that a surprise?
- [23:12]
Angela
That happened four days before the inauguration. So I worked pretty closely with his team. I passed them all the work his attorney had done because his attorneys had been for over a decade, getting signatures of this person and that person and all this advocacy. I passed it all over. We work on this convention poll with the Libertarians. What are the top issues you want President Trump to talk about? And I'm telling everybody, you damn well better vote for Ross Ulbricht on this poll calling everybody. Make sure you vote. Make sure you vote. Please put Ross on. And they're watching it and they're listening to me, and I, you know, some of. They met with President. President Trump met with. With Lynn, his mother. I got her, you know, meetings with other people. Like, you know, Cash Patel's texting me. Like, we're going to get him out, we're going to get him out. It's crazy, right? It's crazy. All these people are like, don't worry, Angela. We're going to do it. We're going to do it. And, you know, the election happens. And I'm. I mean, I'm feeding them all kinds of data on Chase Oliver. I'm like, here's his. That's Our. Our libertarian presidential candidate. I'm like, here's video of him, you know, in a rainbow cape at pride parade, you know, screaming that voting and gender are non binary. And like, here's some more stuff, and here's the. You know, and they're just like, oh, this is amazing. Because they were so happy. They were so happy with Chase Oliver as the nominee. When I told them that, they were like, yes. I could hear the whole room cheer when I was on the phone with their campaign. They were, yeah, couldn't have gone better. And so then, you know, the election happens, and I don't hear from them nearly as much for, like, six weeks because they're busy. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh, you know, am I gonna get the. The BLM treatment? Like how Biden, you know, kicked out BLM after he won? I'm like, ah. And it's like four days before the inauguration, which I was going to, and, you know, had a nice seat before the rain, and everything happened. I just get this text from someone at the top saying, russell Brick, clemency or full pardon. And it's like, oh, don't mess this up. You know, I just kind of had to compose myself, you know, and I'm like, oh, full pardon, please, if that's possible. Thank you so much. And I followed it up with a message about Roger Vere, because by that time I had started to work on that, and they were just, like, done. Promises made, promises kept. It's just, like, so phenomenally classy. Just a class act the whole way through.
- [25:46]
Walker
I mean, that's. It was incredible to see the full pardon, because obviously, like, for those of us on the outside, I think a lot of us just assumed this would be okay. Ross is free, sentence commuted. But, you know, maybe the pardon was going to be a bridge too far. But to see that go through, I think was and, like, justly deserved.
- [26:02]
Angela
Right?
- [26:03]
Walker
I mean, he. I cannot imagine what he and his. His family went through. And so that must have been just like, such a. Such a relief. Like, what a burden off your shoulders. Like, it's not just a commutation. Like, this is a. This is a presidential pardon. Like, that's as. That's as good as you could get, you know?
- [26:18]
Angela
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was, you know, so, like, on inauguration Day, my phone is just, like, blowing up. I was. I was, like, physically ill from stress by that time. Like, having a Crohn's flare, you know, that I hadn't had in a few years. Like, it was tense you know, so I'm, like, holed up in. In D.C. waiting, you know, the next day. I'm like, it hasn't happened yet. You know, and they're like, don't worry. It's coming. We're just a few hours behind on everything. It's like it was kind of like at a conference or at a convention when things run late. That's what the inauguration and everything was like, you know, and so right. When people. There was just a crescendo of insanity about it. And I'm like, I can't look at the Internet. I can't look. You know, I'm being roasted alive. People are like, I lost my bed. He's not going to do it. You know, they're like, it's done. And I call Lynn Ulbricht. She's on the phone with the president, you know, finding out her. Her son. And it was so fast. It wasn't like this J6 or drama where they start moving around and trying to hide him. You know, the. Someone on the president's staff calls the part. The. Calls the prison, and they got to do it. I think they have, like, 24 hours to comply, but it's like they expect it within one hour. So he was out. Wow.
- [27:28]
Walker
I mean, that's just like. Still hearing this now. It's just so surreal. And I can only imagine. Even more surreal for you and for Ross and his family as well. I mean, but what an incredible saga. And it was just. It was great to see that, actually. It was a very heartening moment, you know, seeing that actually go through that. That actually happened. And I think it was a. A great example of a. Let's say a third. Let's say just a third party, a third option, a third movement, being able to move the needle on something that really matters. Like, not just matters for Ross and his family, but actually matters in terms of the message that that sends. Right, the message that sends about the fact that he was in prison for so long. A double life sentence, 40 years plus 40 years without the possibility of parole, that he was just absolutely made an example of in this insane way when no victims were even named at his trial like that. Seeing him walk free, I think just sent a message that, like, look, this stuff matters, and you as an individual or as a, you know, not a red or blue team person, can move the needle. And this kind of brings me back to, like, the. The larger idea of. Is this how you view. Or I should say, how do you view the role of the Libertarian Party? Whether that's the big L libertarians or small L Libertarians? How do you view the role of that in terms of actually enacting change? Is it about winning, you know, winning the elections and trying to take a big chunk of the vote, or is it about being a credible threat so that you have negotiating power? Do you know what I mean?
- [28:59]
Angela
I do. And, and it's the latter. I mean, I think that we need to play kingmaker and anybody who wants to help, by the way, and I have a whole bunch of pardon I'm still working on, you know, go sign up@lpmesis caucus.com if you, if you want to actually move the needle. For 50 plus years, the party has been trying to win elections. They won some in the 80s. There was a whole thing with feds and Soros money and, you know, that's a whole nother rabbit hole we can get down. Just parties just got like wrecked. But beyond that, I just think foundationally, like the, the vision wasn't there that was gonna, it wasn't gonna sustain the party because they didn't, they didn't plan this thing. They didn't lay a foundation to enact realistic change. You know, and so when I came in, I kind of turned everything upside down and like, we can do it. I tried it. It can be done. It can be repeated. It can be repeated. We need to kind of lean out of being spoiler, which is what the party is sort of settled into that like, oh, well, we just spoil elections. Ha ha ha. This kind of this like joker, nihilistic, burn it all down attitude. But then we, you know, you slap the word liberty on it like, oh, because no one passed our purity test, we need to go from spoiler to fixer. And that's what we did with, with the Trump campaign. We just want to improve things. We want to make it better for our first try. Is it 100%? No. President Trump was not running a pure libertarian campaign. We're not going to get it 100%. There are going to be things that fall through the cracks, things that blow up. Sometimes those things are out of his hands, sometimes, whatever. You know, maybe it's not, but the fact that we made any progress on our very first attempt is incredible. And so I think we need to do this over and over again. Every two years, every four years. Libertarians need to pop up in the election cycle and say, these are our demands. If you can follow our demands, if you can pledge, if you can do xyz, make it happen, we're going to drop out of the race and we're going to vote for you. And if you don't, you know, if you put up like a Mitt Romney character, someone that's, you know, like McCain centrist, you know, neocon stuff, you know, we're going to wreck you. We're going to wreck you in the polls. But you have to reward them when they do the right thing. And that's how you advance the needle and you lose the power to do this, I think when you give up your ballot access because people are like, well, why don't you just join the Republican Party? No, because then we're just, it's just diluted out, you know, then we're just 1% of the Republican Party when we are 1% in the general election, 1.5% that makes or breaks the election. And they know that. And that's where the power is. Hold onto your ballot access, hold on to your party, you know, registration. Just be willing to poof, you know, dispense with your vote differently when the time comes.
- [32:03]
Walker
I think that that's a, it's a great approach and does is another part of this. I mean, I've heard you talk about a little bit too kind of getting back to that negotiation of trying to say, okay, yeah, like, we'll drop out and endorse you, give you the votes, but also like, we need to get something for that. Like, you need to put some of our people into cabinet positions or, you know, is that kind of part of the strategy as well on the other side of this?
- [32:23]
Angela
Absolutely. So, you know, I'm trying to talk. I did some negotiating on Roger Ver's situation and, you know, a lot of that they don't want me to, you know, make public yet because it's still little loose ends are being tied up. But that was a lot of heavy lifting. It was a lot of heavy lifting. And you know, thank you voting block for existing. But where was I going with that? What did you ask?
- [32:51]
Walker
Just the, like getting people from, you know, of the Libertarian Party or Libertarian mindset at least into positions, whether that be in the cabinet or other, you know, other areas.
- [33:01]
Angela
Here's midterm asks are like, please let our political prisoners go. Right. Please do this, please do that. General election presidential year asks, you know, we need to repeat what Kennedy did. And I worked pretty closely with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Too, towards the end because the Libertarian Party entered into what's called a joint fire fundraising committee with him. He was running as an independent candidate, which meant the donations he could take from individuals were much smaller than a candidate who's running with a national party. And giving him that donor ability gave. Increased his, like, his reach and his political power. So he went into the negotiating position with. He went to the negotiating table with President Trump in a better position than had he been on his own. And so we sort of, like, boosted him to help him make what he did possible. And we need to repeat that every four years. So Kennedy goes in and he's like, maybe I'll drop out, you know, And I think that they really were kindred spirits after that assassination attempt, with everything that's gone on in the Kennedy family's legacy, you know, but it's like, you know, Kennedy's like, these are the things I'm passionate about, you know, like, I'm very upset over all the COVID stuff. I'm very angry. I have a very different position than you. I'm very upset about how wrecked our health is, especially children. You know, like, I can't just drop out and have no outcome, and people have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to get me to the top. How do we resolve this? You know, Kennedy went in and he got a cabinet position out of it, and he got spots on the transition team. And, you know, Amarillis Fox is on the transition team, his campaign manager, and she is an absolute badass, you know, and she was able to put more people in. Even with HHS running on a skeleton crew. The thing that happened was not just getting a few spots. The tide turned. And, you know, a lot of people are very upset still about Gaza. They're very upset about Epstein files. They're very upset. And I hear you, and I don't want to, like, diminish your concerns, but for the first time in history in, I don't know, a hundred years, we moved the. Not just. We didn't move the needle, we reversed course. It's really challenging to continue to make progress, but we have to keep doing that. I mean, so now we've reversed the direction of things. So now let's continue to push. There's just so many things we can do. I would love to, in 2028, send another MAHA person and a bitcoiner to the White House to negotiate as the Libertarian presidential and vice presidential candidate. Could you imagine hold on to hhs, expand, no more fights over the CDC director and that kind of nonsense. Have a bitcoiner there who is making transition team picks on financial policy. Like, this is the future of the Libertarian Party and bitcoiners in our voting block. And I don't, you know, like, I don't care about, like, Libertarian Party activism. That's not important, right? You pop up every two to four years and do this and repeat and repeat and repeat. And we will. We will completely change the course of history because they know. They know that our votes matter.
- [36:32]
Walker
I think I love that position you're taking on this because again, I think that it's just very practical. It's about not. How can we virtue signal with purity tests about look at the sanctity of our positions. And yeah, none of them ever get implemented. And, yeah, nobody ever gets into a position where they can meaningfully affect change. But, hey, at least we passed our own purity test. It's like, no, what can we actually do? How can we genuinely move the needle by getting people in positions where they have actual political power. And you do that by, like, exert. You know, we do have leverage. We have leverage in the sense of, you know, independent, you know, libertarian or undecided voters who are principled and don't identify with the Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola duopoly, but are willing to, you know, vote with their. Vote with their feet.
- [37:16]
Angela
Right.
- [37:17]
Walker
And also who are. Especially you. You hinted at this earlier, but just with the bitcoiner cohort, it's like, it's a. It's a cohort of individuals who have an increasingly significant amount of economic energy at their disposal. This is only going to increase, Right? And so it's like, what do you do with that? What do you do with that? And there are a lot of bitcoiners. I know a lot of bitcoiners have been in a lot longer than I have, who are sitting in. You know, they're. They've become quite. Quite wealthy now. And it's like, I don't just want to sit on this. I want to do something. I just. I don't want to go retire to my citadel and cut myself off from the world. I want to try and make the world a little bit better. I want to actually move the needle. And, like, it turns out that money is a great way to do that, but also, you have to have the people in the positions that are going to affect change. And so I love the approach. And, you know, one of the things that was brought up over and over when I asked people for questions about this interview was the samurai case. Because I think this is one of the things that bitcoiners are really focused on right now, rightly so, because it's insane on so many levels. Right. Can we talk about That a little bit. And just kind of your position on it, if you think this is a reasonable one to potentially get a pardon on at some point or a commutation. Because to me, this whole case is absurd and sets an insane precedent. These unlicensed money transmitter laws are just patently absurd. Right. At the end of the day, you're putting people in jail and giving them egregious fines for writing open source software when they never even handled anyone's funds. Right.
- [38:46]
Angela
Didn't touch it.
- [38:47]
Walker
Like this is insane. That is a dangerous, dangerous precedent. Where are you at with this right now? Also, what can people actively do at this point to try and help move the needle in this case?
- [38:59]
Angela
Yes. Okay. So I have been in contact with the administration about it, as well as Roman Storm of Tornado Cash's case, which is basically the same thing, but with Ethereum, there's several cases like this. There's Roman Sterlingov, Bitcoin fog. I don't even think he. I don't even think he created it. They just. He used it, you know, and so they were like.
- [39:22]
Walker
They accused him of creating it, though, or something, right?
- [39:24]
Angela
Yeah, they accused him of creating it. But they're so bad at what they do. They're like, well, we found one person who used it, therefore you must have been the author of it. It's just totally insane. He is in prison right now, and I think he's got like six years left. So these are free speech issues. They are privacy issues. There's no law about, you know, hiding dollars under your mattress. It's this. It's just crazy. And. And we're treating bitcoin because it's. Because it's a new emergent technology. You know, it's new to them. It's still fairly new. And they don't fully understand it. Like, they are. They are wigging out over it. At least the Biden administration was, you know, President Trump's administration has been a lot friendlier to it. And so what I'm trying to convey is, you know, it's a free speech issue. It's a privacy issue. Also, they didn't hurt anyone. They did not take anyone's. They're not. They did not do what they were accused of. Right. And like, if you let this happen, bitcoiners are not showing up in the midterms. You know, the other thing that I think is so disturbing about this is that we're pushing for a bitcoin strategic reserve. At least a lot of the bitcoin movement is. And if we can't fix these cases. The dynamic that is emerging right now is anytime you innovate or do something new, we will take your bitcoin and then we will throw it in our strategic reserve. And that's not the dynamic that we want, that we want for this. But I think the administration is, they're starting to become aware that like the Todd Blanche memo, you know, is not, it's not being followed. There are rogue prosecutors and districts like the Southern District of New York that hate President Trump, they hate the DOJ new leadership, they hate us, you know, and they're happy to tap dance on our graves and defy, defy, you know, like they consider themselves as like woke warriors for real justice, real truth, you know, that, that they're going to defy everything that President Trump and Todd Blanche and Pam Bondi say. So there's a lot to unpack there.
- [41:53]
Walker
Yeah, I mean maybe one, one point to start on there is this, this is maybe zooming out a little bit, but this kind of like defy culture, right? This, yes. Because so much of the political is also cultural, I think, and so much of what moves the needle politically is ultimately cultural. And you see so many of these, you know, I guess self proclaimed activists, you know, who are defying Trump or whatever because clearly he's a Democrat, democratically elected dictator, or so they would have you believe. So crazy, you know, he's trying to make himself a king apparently. And all of these things, which is just like, it's all steeped in hyperbole. It's all just really like call out bad things. I'm generally the opinion, like call out bad things. When a politician does bad things, don't, you don't need to make up bad things. They do plenty of bad things already. You can find them acknowledge good things when they do good things because then they realize that, oh, people see when I do good things and those will be rewarded with, you know, public praise. But I mean, where do you think we're at with just the, let's say the cultural vibe as it relates to the political in the United States? Because we are obviously like the duopoly is very strong. We are clearly, you know, I don't know if we're, we've never been more divided, but you know, whatever. We're, we're divided. Right. It's a, it's a, it's a forced duopoly. And, and it just feels like reason is left at the door when it comes to anything my opponent does is automatically bad. And this, this goes for both Sides, right. Like, this is a knee jerk reaction to anything the other side does. I need to denounce, I need to be against it. It's all this just reactionary, like, binary understanding of what is good and bad. I mean, how do we actually break out of that cycle? Like, is this. Is the. This third influence, this, this libertarian third party influence, what actually allows us to do that? Or are we just kind of screwed and we just kind of trend towards like alternating extremes as this pendulum just swings back and forth, knocking over everything in its path?
- [43:53]
Angela
Yeah, I mean, it's. I don't have a perfect answer for this. You know, I think, I think a lot of it is cultural. I think people have sort of reached a point of fatigue with, with it, which is good, you know, but like Democratic strongholds, they have not reached fatigue. You know, they want to regroup and find a different way to approach it. And I think that they learned like, gender ideology burned people out. And it was like too much. So they're going to try class warfare again. So, you know, don't brag too much about how much bitcoin you have. You're going to have. You're going to have people coming after you.
- [44:27]
Walker
I lost all mine in a boating accident.
- [44:29]
Angela
Weekly. Yes, very bad boating accident.
- [44:31]
Walker
It's terrible.
- [44:34]
Angela
You know, I think the reason that the fighting is worse and worse every election cycle is because more and more is at stake. You know, the more power is consolidated federally, the more there really is to lose. Like, it does matter who the president is. It does matter. We've seen that. And so until we get to a point where it matters less, I think that we're going to continue to fight over it. And you know, I think bitcoin is one of the things that can, you know, it can alleviate that situation a little bit as long as we keep it in our hands, which I think, you know, I think we mostly can do that. I think the way that it's designed, you know, prevents a lot of shenanigans, but yeah, like, we just have to have more things like bitcoin. Like, I can't. I don't really fully know what those technologies are yet, but the more we have them that move our dependency away from a centralized government, the better that we are going to be. And if we can get just normal people to adopt it, you know, they may, they may start to chill out a little bit and become less invested.
- [45:44]
Walker
I think I fully agree with that. And it's, it's something I've been thinking about and just. And Speaking about a lot lately, which is just this idea that like, people forget that the government does not give you rights or give you freedoms. Right? You, you, you need to take them yourself. Individuals take their freedoms. And luckily we have these amazing tools at our disposal now, like, like strong encryption and, and, and Bitcoin and all. And like Noster that we're broadcasting on right now, which like nobody can, can shut this down because it's again, a decentralized communication protocol. You've got Cashew, which is built on top of the, it's E Cash built on top of the Lightning network on top of Bitcoin. And it allows for near perfect privacy, like with trade offs. Right. It's not Bitcoin at its base layer. But the point being we have all these incredible tools at our disposal, but people need to use them. Like you have to use them and you have to be able to actively take that freedom back because like, otherwise you're just like, if you expect to have any, you need to do something about it. And I'm curious too. I think so much of what truly moves the needle happens in a very localized level, but people discount that. Where are you at in terms of priorities as far as working at the national federal level versus trying to move the needle at the local level, the state level. How do you view that and kind of, what do you think is the best path there? I mean, is it obviously like a dual pronged approach or is there one that moves the needle more for the average American citizen?
- [47:16]
Angela
Yeah, I mean, it's a division of labor. And so with me, with the relationships I've cultivated, I have to keep working at the federal level. But you know, like the, the Mises Caucus is basically focused on local elections. You know, we want libertarians to like, run in a race where you could actually win, you know, and where you can make a difference. So if you're in a small town and your town council has like five people run, you know, you can spend a thousand dollars and maybe win that race because you knocked every door and sent everybody a mailer and did a couple of appearances, you should do that. And you know, when it, when it comes to issues of like, affordability, there are so many taxes at the local level. Like if you can beat those at the local level, if you can get rid of annoying permits that don't let people have, like backyard chickens, you know, like, if there's, if there's no. And be practical about it, by the way, you know, if your town has no backyard chickens, like, go ahead and Pass a law that's allowing people to have up to like 20 if you think that'll win, as opposed to like just completely, you know, all or nothing. Like, you can do things like that. You can get rid of red light cameras, which cause more accidents, by the way. And then people lose money on like stupid tickets that they should never be, you know, like. Because you didn't come to the camera's definition of a complete stop when there's nobody in the intersection.
- [48:39]
Walker
Yeah, like there are so many of that many times.
- [48:41]
Angela
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So is literally every human being. Those are the sort of things that you can change locally. You know, zoning restrictions. Oh my gosh. You know, there are. And then there are. There are times where, like, it's a nuanced situation, but you would know best because you live in your community. Maybe you don't want the entire town to turn into renters, you know, and yeah, we're having some problems like that in, in the city of Boston, Texas, where it's like everybody on the city council is a renter except for like one person. Can you imagine, like, we just narrowly defeated a crazy property tax increase of like 30% because nobody owns a home. So they're like, oh, it won't matter to us. You know, it's like, yeah, so you can do a lot.
- [49:28]
Walker
Yeah, go, go ahead.
- [49:29]
Angela
You can do a lot at the local level. And you know, I, I think that you should spend more attention at the local level and just pop up once or twice a year to deal with some federal issue. You know, like, if you want to run a spoiler kingmaker candidate, do that, but don't make it like your life's work. You know, like that's like a five month project and then go back to your life.
- [49:55]
Walker
I mean, I think that that's great advice. And again, people often, for whatever reason, just discount that local power.
- [50:04]
Angela
Right.
- [50:04]
Walker
Even though it's the thing that really does affect your day to day life the most. Like, yes, what happens in the federal government matters.
- [50:11]
Angela
Right?
- [50:12]
Walker
It matters who we happen to be waging war. I mean, not officially waging war with. Because we haven't actually. Congress hasn't declared war in a very, very long time.
- [50:19]
Angela
Quite a while.
- [50:20]
Walker
It's a whole different story. Yeah, quite a while. But what happens in your local community genuinely matters. And it matters to you and your neighbors and the people that you're around the most, right? And you have the best chance of actually, like you said, you might be able to spend a thousand dollars and maybe do a little bit of targeted social media advertising and send out a couple of pamphlets and go shake some hands and get yourself elected. And I feel like that's what it sort of takes to begin that bottom up approach of reshaping things. Because people also forget that the federal government was never meant to be this big. It was never, ever meant to be this big. Like our founding fathers would be rolling over, are certainly rolling over in their graves.
- [51:01]
Angela
Yeah.
- [51:02]
Walker
Seeing what, what's happening now, do you have any thoughts on, on that, on just, I guess, ways to meaningfully shrink the federal government? Because it seems that at the, at the federal level, no matter which side is in power, they, even the, you know, even the, quote, conservatives, it's like the, the government just keeps getting bigger and bigger and more bloated. And even the, you know, the Doge initiatives didn't. I mean, I think Elon Musk truly tried there. I think that was very disillusioning for him. But he couldn't even move the needle with that. Even after finding all this waste. You know, what do you think about this? Is there a way to do it?
- [51:37]
Angela
They cut like a few hundred. They cut a few hundred, actually, I don't know. They've cut twice now, so I don't know what the number is. It's not, I mean it's not close to nothing. It's not close to a trillion dollars, but it's. Yeah. Congress is not going to do anything. So Congress, when people are like, I'm running for Congress, I'm like, oh, that's very cute. Congress is, it's not going to happen. There, there are people in the administration right now, specifically in the Office of Management and Budget, who are zeroing out. That's where USAID was killed. And so getting people into cabinet positions who haven't been. It's not that everybody is a swamp monster, that's not the case. But you have, you owe a million people favors and you're just tied up and you become afraid to do something. Even if you don't have like an unholy allegiance to Pfizer, you just, you don't have the courage to do it. So getting people in, like how we got Kennedy in, getting outsiders into cabinet positions, I think is the best way to do it. And so that's another reason you should do the Kingmaker strategy, because they can slash. And remember it's our first time. Right. So we're not making all the cuts that we wanted to, but things are getting cut. Like USAID got zeroed out through, through Cabinet appointees. But beyond that, I mean, beyond government, it's just going to have to be, it's just going to have to be emergent technologies. Healthcare is one where it can definitely happen. And you know, like, there's a lot of controversy over wearables and brain computer interfaces, which is this kind of scary rabbit hole to go down. You look at some of the stuff China's come out and you're like, oh, um, but being able to take your healthcare into your own hands and to understand what's going on with your body and to have affordable treatments and just completely bypass the system, that I think is going to help us. It's going to, it can potentially prevent us from flipping to a totally socialized system. Because when people can't afford healthcare and they can't afford a place to live, that's where they just tend to go nuts. You know, if we can continue to make advances there while also maintaining autonomy over our bodies, I think that that will stave off, you know, the giant growth of the federal government and all that stuff. And then obviously housing, you know, you're seeing a lot of pod houses now on Amazon. It's like a little discouraging. If we can find some technology where people can just build from the ground up and it's cheaper, like water, sewage, plumbing, all that. If that stuff also becomes more affordable, then I think that will also alleviate some of the pressure right now because like Gen Z, they can't afford homes. That sucks. That's not good. And so they're going to be incentivized to grow government because that's, that's the solution that they see right now.
- [54:46]
Walker
I think that that's such an important point when it comes to the younger generation is understandably, they don't have any hope for the future because they are, they look at this and they see the boomer who bought their house for, you know, two raspberries in the 70s and now it's worth $3 million. Telling them to just pull themselves up by their bootstraps and you know, just go, just go, just go hand in your resume at the, at the local store and they'll hire you and then you'll work a 9 to 5 job and you'll be able to buy a, you know, multi million dollar house just like I did. And it's like, no, that's just like, you know, from a, Obviously I, I come at this through a, through a bitcoin lens and it's like, well, you know, you can't afford anything because the money's Broken. Because we. There was a post on X recently, a guy. It was some boomer being like. And not all boomers are bad. I know a lot of really amazing super boomers. Yeah, there's some really great ones. But this guy happened to be one of the bad boomers. And it was like, oh, you, you know, you want to buy a house? Cool, cool. Well, are you doing enlisted? All these different things. And the reality is that has nothing to do with you being able to afford a house. We've debased the currency perpetually. And it's like, what would really move the needle? Like, you want to buy a house? Build a time machine. Go back to 1971, Punch Richard Nixon in the face as he's trying to take us off the gold standard. Better yet, go back to 1913. Make sure. Walk into Jekyll island, you know, and maybe nobody leaves Jekyll island, you know?
- [56:05]
Angela
Yeah.
- [56:05]
Walker
Like, I don't know. And maybe that fixes a lot of the problems that we have right now. I don't know if it's can be considered a call for violence if I'm talking about people that are long dead. So. Yeah, we'll see.
- [56:16]
Angela
Well, leftists. Leftists talk about going back in time and killing baby Hitler. So, you know, let's.
- [56:21]
Walker
There you go. So I think I'm clear on this one. Right.
- [56:24]
Angela
We could also just.
- [56:25]
Walker
They're understandably frustrated. You can, like, see why they have no prospect of getting ahead. This is why bitcoin is a really powerful tool for them. But the problem is, even there, then they will look at and say, well, Bitcoin's at $100,000. You know, I like, I've already missed the boat there. You look for more and more destructive sort of, let's say, like gambling schemes to essentially try and get yourself ahead. And none of those really work. Like, your best bet would be to just try and create value and focus on your craft and save in Bitcoin, because the government's not going to save you. I tell people, monetary system is not going to get any better. And it's like, you know, maybe if we. If we end the Fed and massively shrink the government and stop, you know, taking so much from people in taxes, you'd have a chance at getting ahead. But I just don't see the Fed ending or the government shrinking meaningfully anytime soon.
- [57:12]
Angela
Same. I don't see the Fed ending. And I think we can put a lot of people in who are passionate about ending the Fed, and they are going to have their hands Tied. And it's not because they're not true believers. You know, Like, I know that Robert F. Kennedy Jun. Wants Covid shots completely away, gone. You know, people are screaming in the Maha movement. Why aren't all the COVID shots just gone? You know, it's not. It's not always that easy. You know, you make an order, you're like, such and such is illegal. It's done. And then you get hit with a bunch of lawsuits and regulatory, you know, and you're just like, this is insane. You know, that's what ending the Fed is like, I want it ended. But I just. I think it's been designed in a way that we can never push the red button. You know, the red button is elusive. It's. The princess is always in the next castle. So we just have to make it, like, nearly irrelevant. Nearly irrelevant. If you have, like, almost no money, I would say go get $5 in Bitcoin. Like, I know it sounds, like, so silly, but, like, add $5, get $100 in Bitcoin. Just add a little bit. Because it is going to grow. You know, we've seen it. It'll continue to do that. And yeah, I think you'll be in a better position. Like, maybe it sounds silly.
- [58:33]
Walker
I don't think it sounds silly at all. And, you know, if you. I tell people all the time, just, just buy a little bit every day or every week. Like, and, you know, if you buy a dollar a day or $5 a week or whatever it might be, that may not seem like a lot, but that does move the needle. And again, if you're young, the one thing you have on your side is you have time on your side, right? And bitcoin does incredible things if you are patient. And so that's where I hope that more young people find bitcoin. A lot of. Just from my own analytics that I have and talking to other people who are educators in the bitcoin space, a lot of the demographic is like, is, you know, I'm a. I'm a millennial. Millennials to Gen X to. To early boomers. Like, that's. It's heavy on the millennials and Gen X side. The Gen Z side is harder to reach, right? Because, like, you know, I'm considered ancient to them already, you know, and I'm not even, like, so far removed. So, like, it's. It's. We need. We need more. We need more Gen Z bitcoin podcasters. I guess.
- [59:32]
Angela
We do, we do.
- [59:33]
Walker
To step into that role.
- [59:34]
Angela
I think another really Important thing about adopting bitcoin, even if it's just like a little bit, is it starts to give you a paradigm shift. And so you're moving your attention away from being hopeless to being solution oriented and you may start to notice other opportunities. It is really abysmal and depressing to think like, oh, I'm 26 years old, I went to college, I got a college job and I live in an urban area where I can only afford a one bedroom apartment. It's like a pretty nice apartment, but it's one bedroom. I don't think I could afford to have a stay at home, wife and a child, you know, and it's like you have to just like, you have to start to like shift your perspective in some way I think in order to escape that trap. And like the first thing is to just literally look, just like, look for something else a different way.
- [60:35]
Walker
And I think again, like just having hope goes a long way in that. Yes, if you have no hope, you're not going to work very hard for, for anything because it's like, well, what's the point? If you have even a glimmer of hope, then you will work your ass off because that, you know, that glimmer starts to, starts to get brighter and brighter. But you need to just have that, that spark. And I hope that bitcoin can be that spark for, for more and more people. And it's heartening too to see things like square, just like a couple days ago, made, made their square terminals. Basically you can accept bitcoin now. Like any of the 4 million merchants can accept it. And like bitcoin as a medium of exchange is also such an important thing. Just overall like the, the freedom to transact being in my opinion, fundamental in terms of allowing all of our other freedoms to be taken by us. Like it's really hard to organize and to protest and to pay your phone bill to, you know, use the Internet. If you, if you don't have money, if your money can be frozen by the state.
- [61:31]
Angela
Right?
- [61:32]
Walker
And so like normalizing bitcoin as a medium of exchange and as a store of value. But to young people it's like man, you could, you can just start accepting bitcoin for work that you do. That's the beautiful thing about like the gig economy gets a lot of, a lot of grief. But if you do gigs and they're paid in bitcoin, that's a different story. Like that's a, that's a way to get yourself out of that gig economy eventually.
- [61:52]
Angela
Yep, yep. I get paid in bitcoin. It's. It's really cool. It's really cool.
- [61:58]
Walker
It's the best. It feels like it should be illegal, but thank. Thank goodness they haven't. They haven't gone that far yet.
- [62:05]
Angela
Yeah, yeah, I will. I will continue to fight against that. Trying to get these guys out of prison is like. It's the. They're the tip of the spear. You know, they're the tip of the spear. We gotta. We gotta protect them because they're protecting us and they're making all of this possible for us.
- [62:22]
Walker
Maybe a good opportunity here to just. Okay, so you mentioned a few of the cases, the bitcoin fog, the tornado cash. We talked about Samurai a little bit. Are there any other cases right now that you're looking at or that you'd really like to call attention to for people to kind of make some noise about?
- [62:38]
Angela
Yeah, Ian Freeman is another one. His website is free Ian now dot org, I think. Yeah, free Ian now dot org. So Ian Freeman ran. He ran Bitcoin ATMs in New Hampshire, and they busted him. You know, it's the same. They're like, you're not properly licensed. You're not. You know, you don't have. You haven't complied with all the regulatory stuff. No one was hurt. You know, the. They. They went after him because they said, well, some people used your Bitcoin ATMs to commit scams. And it's like he had better know your customer policies than most major financial institutions. He actually stopped some. Some elderly people from being scammed. It's just. And of course, none of the people who actually committed scams, they didn't even go after them or attempt to, because that's not really what it's about. It's that they don't want people. They don't want us to have financial freedom. You know, I think the judge that locked Ian up was also one of the defy judges, you know, who's like, issuing ridiculous rulings, trying to tie up President Trump. It's just crazy. So, yeah, Ian is innocent. He's in prison right now, unfortunately, federal prison. So I'm trying to get him a pardon. I feel good about it. I mean, I feel optimistic because I know that President Trump recognizes how important the bitcoin community is and how bitcoiners helped him get elected. So, you know, I'm hoping, definitely hoping, that that will. Will push the needle a little bit and that Ian can get a pardon before the holidays. Roman storm also, you know, and with tornado cash, which was more tied to Ethereum, but it's the same. It's the same situation. And these guys have just been. Same with Keone Rodriguez, like, they have just been financially drained. This is lawfare, you know, so donating to these guys, you know, like, please do. They have tons of legal bills. Attorneys are very expensive. And, you know, we're really hoping that the Samurai wallet guys can get a pardon. I think they have to report in for prison in like five weeks. So working really hard to get parns before then.
- [65:03]
Walker
It's just insane because all of these archaic, or not even necessarily archaic, these just, let's say fiat world laws being applied to these software developers, to anyone who looks at this just impartially and logically, it's just absurd, right? It's patently absurd. There's no. It seems insane to make the case like the Samurai case is a great example where it's like they weren't even. I forget the exact. Exactly one time, but FinCEN basically said, no, you don't really need this license or whatever. And then that's exactly what they were charged for, was need that they did it without the license. So it's like there's not even consistency amongst the different departments, which is equally insane. But, I mean, I would hope President Trump obviously understands lawfare, right?
- [65:51]
Angela
Yes, yes.
- [65:51]
Walker
He's been a victim of it himself. I mean, does that give you some hope that he's like, like gonna be able to kind of move quickly with some of these things, like, because he knows what it's like to be on the receiving end, right?
- [66:02]
Angela
He does. I mean, it's crazy. I, like, had dinner with him while all this was going on for him. You know, that's. It makes me optimistic about Ian. The feds hated Ian. You know, he was really a thorn in their side. He was very outspoken, libertarian. And when talk radio was big, he was a host of Free Talk Live, which used to be like a really big radio show, which I think would probably also make. He was a public figure. You know, they. They went after him for. For things like that. They don't want. They don't want people being loud. They don't like emergent technologies. The Biden administration, you know, went after all these guys. They also went after Roger. You know, thankfully, that case was dismissed and reached a settlement. You know, he was facing 109 years for tax evasion, allegedly. And the feds basically, like raided his attorney's office, kicked in the door, and interrogated his attorneys with a gun. Like, if that had been allowed to go, then there's no more attorney client privilege, not just in big cases like that, but the precedent is set that, you know, you're in a family law situation. Oh, you had a dispute with your ex wife. Well, she can send the cops in to interrogate your attorney, you know, and now your family's gone just like crazy. Crazy things like the free speech issues with samurai wallet and tornado cash. Like, any code you write, any new technology, they could say that terrorists could grab it, and then you're in prison. So I think that President Trump recognizes this and his kids are also. They're definitely dabbling in bitcoin and cryptocurrency.
- [67:40]
Walker
Right.
- [67:42]
Angela
It would make sense for him to protect his own children, too. So fingers crossed. You know, I spend a lot of time praying about it. I'm in church more often now. Dear God, please, please, please, please, please. And I, Yeah, I feel. I feel optimistic, but it's a lot of work still.
- [67:59]
Walker
So, I mean, and pardons are obviously, like, really important for these people because these are people's lives we're talking about. This isn't just some academic question, right? This is something like, we need some. Some immediate actions that these guys don't need to rot in prison and get absolutely just destroyed, even more so than they already have been, and ripped apart from their famil.
- [68:17]
Angela
It's so bad.
- [68:18]
Walker
More so than they already have been.
- [68:19]
Angela
I mean.
- [68:20]
Walker
But like, I was just gonna ask, going. Going forward, it's like, how do we make sure this doesn't keep happening again? Because the pendulum, again, does swing back. Eventually it will. Like, it's when we have a party duopoly, a political duopoly. It's like that pendulum just goes back and forth, and it's a question of how far and how fast it swings and how many people it hurts. How do we make sure that this stuff doesn't just get reignited again with an even more fervent, you know, sickening sycophantic desire when some. Some commie is in charge. You know, eventually, hopefully that won't happen, but, like, it might probably will. I don't know.
- [68:54]
Angela
Yeah, Congress, the dirty word. Yeah, they need to pass some laws. They have. They have passed a couple. Congress needs to pass some things. Protecting bitcoin. I hate to say it, I think the other thing we need to do is educate Democrats. People on the left. Like, we cannot just, like, forget them. People on the left who are in bitcoin circles, like, we can't kick them out. We can't be nasty to them because they need to educate. Like if all the like left wing Gen Z people started using bitcoin, they would like it has to become like the economic Gaza. I think, like it's gotta become something where lefties like are also really invested because then they're not going to support, they're not going to support politicians who go after bitcoin.
- [69:45]
Walker
So I think that's actually a really good point. Is that beyond the political, it is about moving the needle culturally. Like making this something that is. Because that's the, and that's the frustrating thing too, I think for a lot of libertarian or right wing bitcoiners or however they want to identify whatever's not, you know, left, right. It's like, well yeah, I have these opinions but like bitcoin is for anyone who is willing to learn. That's the whole thing is that bitcoin doesn't care. It's agnostic. It doesn't care about your politics, it doesn't care about your gender, it doesn't care about your, your gender identity. It literally doesn't care.
- [70:21]
Angela
Right.
- [70:21]
Walker
And so anyone is free to use it. That's the beauty of it. But you know, I think like the left only ends up hurting themselves and from the politician's perspective, like Elizabeth Warren only hurts her constituents, right?
- [70:33]
Angela
Oh yeah.
- [70:33]
Walker
When she rails against it. But, but they don't see that. And to me it's like one of the most American aligned with Western values ideas that has ever existed. And it's that, that separation of money from state and the freedom for anyone to freely transact and use money and save the value of their time and energy in something that the government or the central bank cannot debase. But apparently that's now like a fringe idea or a right wing idea. But, but it's not, it's like, and there's a lot of people doing very good work I think reaching across the aisle. Like there's a, the Progressive Bitcoiner is a, an organization that's doing really good work with this. But it's, it's hard, right, because they've just been, they've been steeped in this like just dog information honestly from folks like Elizabeth Warren. And sadly they've lapped it up and haven't gone deeper. But I hope that they do.
- [71:23]
Angela
Yeah, we need like there needs, there needs to be bitcoin outreach at Berkeley. There needs to be bitcoin outreach anywhere where there's like a hotbed of leftist activism, there's gotta be bitcoin. It's like you have to proselytize. You have to proselytize. Like, I. I'm. I'm a Christian, so I feel like I have kind of like this, like, like, evangelistic approach. And I know a lot of bitcoiners do. And you want to, like, tell everybody, which is great. Make sure you are telling the people who you perceive to be your enemies. Like, those are the people. Like, we gotta go after them. We gotta go after them on. On. On everything. Like, that's like. Like the whole, like, Charlie Kirk thing. We need Charlie Kirk of bitcoin. That's what we need.
- [72:08]
Walker
Yeah, it's. It's a very good point. Because you want, like, you want your enemies to use bitcoin. Like, yes, that's. That's ideal because again, it's. That's the beauty of it, right? It's money for enemies. And the more enemies that you have using bitcoin, the less chances that they're gonna try to use lawfare against you bitcoiners just because they disagree with you politically.
- [72:27]
Angela
Yeah, that's what it comes down to. We gotta have discussions with people who are opposed to it, and we gotta tailor those discussions for all of the people who are listening. You know, like, we want to change their minds. And I think that that is a really good way to protect bitcoin and our financial. Like, one thing that I worry about is, you know, we get a bitcoin strategic reserve set up, and it. What happens to bitcoin is kind of. Not exactly, but it is similar to what happened with gold that they are like, well, now we're confiscating it. So if you have bitcoin, you got to turn it in. Like, I worry about something like that.
- [73:05]
Walker
6102 type situation with the.
- [73:08]
Angela
Turn all your bitcoin in.
- [73:10]
Walker
Yeah, at least with that. I mean, Even during the 6102, like, a lot of people just said, like, well, fuck you. You know, like, I'm not giving you my gold. And. And thankfully, it's easier to hide, a lot easier to hide bitcoin than it is to hide. It's more comfortable, too, depending on where you're trying to stow it. But, yeah, no, I completely agree with you. Even if such an order would not be terribly effective, you don't want to see such an order happen. You want politicians to ultimately be pro bitcoin. You want them to be falling over themselves to see who can appeal to bitcoiners more.
- [73:44]
Angela
Right.
- [73:44]
Walker
To try and get their donations, to try and get their votes. That's the ideal state. You know, you don't want it to become a political football. It may just become that, you know, but ideally, we don't want it to.
- [73:57]
Angela
Yeah, I want them to be competing for our boats. That's really what they should be doing. Like that, you know, you've, like, you're in a good spot where they're not just trying to silence you or ignore you or drown you out, but they're competing to get your attention.
- [74:13]
Walker
I wanted to ask you, too, just the Mises Caucus, specifically, because that's what you were the chair of the Libertarian National Party. You're now the chair of the Mises Caucus. And just reading over some of the literature that you guys have, too. And I think just the bio of your Twitter is basically, you're focused on Austrian economic literacy, decentralization, privatization, and opposition to war. And it's like, yes, agreed. Those are good things. Can, can you talk a little bit about, I mean, just the, the dynamics within the Libertarian Party, for those who may not be familiar, like, how much of a. Like, how much power do the individual caucuses have? And, and, you know, is this something you're already kind of thinking about and positioning for as we run into the next, you know, like, presidential election or how. How soon does that start, I guess?
- [75:01]
Angela
Oh, we're, we're. We're recruiting right now. So, like, there's a major deadline coming up in California on the 17th to be signed up as a party member and registered Libertarian in order to participate in the February convention. We just need as many people signed up as possible. We've been the dominant caucus for several years, but we've experienced burnout and attrition. So I'm trying to restack us with bitcoiners and Maha especially, because that's what I see as, like, the future of the United States, our financial health and our. And our bodily health. You know, we really want to transform the national party so that the express intention is to play kingmaker, you know, caveat being our candidates won't drop out if the major party candidate doesn't give us concessions, you know, or if they're just atrocious. But we want to be fixers, you know, and, you know, we do. We have a lot of opposition within the organization. You know, what we call the old guard. Not all of them, but a lot of them are like, no, my baby, you can't destroy. You know, and I'm like, you've had 50 years. There is a real problem with the boomer generation. Not all of them Some of them are very fine people, but they don't want to pass on the torch. You know, how old is Nancy Pelosi? And she's finally like, I guess I'm finally too old. It's like your job, whether it's a political thing or a different, you know, a private organization, your job is when you rise to the top. And like, this is something I'm very passionate about, you know, and I'm always looking like I'm mentoring actually someone to take over my place. A really great bitcoiner from Michigan named Amber Harris. Like, your job is to stay in charge for so long and then identify the next upcoming leader, pass the torch and mentor them and set them up for success. And the boomers did this weird twist where they told all of their children they were very special. Very special. You're the most special kid ever. And then they were like, psych. You know, we're not helping you get off your feet. We're not helping you launch. We're destroying the currency. Oh, we think you're too stupid and incompetent to be in charge. And we're going to hold onto it forever. And that same dynamic exists in the Libertarian Party. I hate to say it, you know, when I was running for chair, there's like a 70 year old man running against me. Just like, with all due respect, why aren't you like, offering to advise me? You want to like, no, dude, bro, step down. Like, let, let younger generations take charge of their own futures. So, yeah, so that's one of the dynamics in the party, you know, and then there's just generally people who are more libertine, so they're very passionate about sex, work and drugs. But they were really bad on Covid. You know, they don't care about war, they're bad on God. They're just silent on it, you know. So those are kind of the dynamics, you know, and, and I've uncovered and I'm certainly not done yet. There's a lot of work to be done. But there was some Soros money that went into people who went into the organization in the 90s. And it's all indirect, right? It goes to a foundation, goes to a foundation, goes to a guy, and then he runs. And it's like, it doesn't go directly, you know, and the Mises Caucus came in and we kind of rooted it out and we tore it up. And I experienced lawfare. You know, I got sued twice for working with President Trump. Our Colorado affiliate, which tried to endorse Kennedy and had this whole liberty pledge with Republicans to basically play kingmaker. You know, like they got sued and torn up. So it's been challenging, but I'm not afraid. You know, tip of the spear kind of stuff. Like someone's gotta be the vanguard. So what the Mises Caucus has done, you know, is we have cleaned all of that crap out so that people like you, so that bitcoiners and people who are like, I don't have time for that drama, so that they can come in and work with us and not have to deal with the drama. It's like, you know, we've been the garbage men of the Libertarian Party.
- [79:13]
Walker
You know, it's. Well, hopefully a lot of that garbage got taken out. Yeah, you know, I. I wanted to ask you as well, this is something that I think somebody you've met. Actually average Gary is what he goes by online. But he's a bitcoin veteran and just a super great guy. But he had sent me a message before this, just saying, wondering if Angela wants to sue on behalf of all us bitcoiners because the samurai case admits bitcoin is money. This would make cap gains not applicable. Maybe. And he clarifies. Not a lawyer, but could be. Fun thoughts.
- [79:42]
Angela
I mean, I could find you an attorney. I'm sure I could find you an attorney. Suing the government is tricky because you have to ask the government permission to sue it and then it gets to decide yes or no. But yeah, there's some good securities. Bitcoin attorneys out there might.
- [80:00]
Walker
Might have ourselves. Might have ourselves a case there. I want to know too, because I want to be conscious of your time here because we've got. Maybe you still have a couple minutes left.
- [80:08]
Angela
Yeah, yeah, I'm okay.
- [80:09]
Walker
Okay. I wanted to ask like, because we've talked about a lot of kind of specifics here today, but I wanted to just zoom out a little bit and I'd love to know, like, what is your thoughts on? Or what are your thoughts on Just the actual purpose of the state, like the modern state. Like not from an academic standpoint, but from a practical standpoint. Like what is the state's raison d' etre in the modern world?
- [80:34]
Angela
Yeah. So I think it started as to defend your liberties, to defend your rights. Your rights already existed. And then we just stuck this thing up to protect your rights. And I think it exists now to grow. It's a self licking ice cream cone. It exists to grow. And anything that gets in its way is bad, is the enemy. So you know, it's going to grow and grow and get great, great big. Like a big old tumor. Yeah. And that's why I'm trying to cut it down a little bit, shave a little off the top.
- [81:13]
Walker
It's like the purpose of a system is what it does, right. And the state's purpose seems to be just to continue feeding itself and growing.
- [81:21]
Angela
I think it's profoundly impersonal. And so it's like, you know, it's not personal, right? Like, it's nature, but it becomes so incredibly impersonal that it's like shocking. You know, the callousness and cruelty, the degree to which it operates, which you see, you know, in these Bitcoin cases, they don't care if they tear your life apart, ruin you. It's like you don't exist. You know, you're just a. You're just a resource, you know, and they just gobble you up. It's kind of scary. That's malevolent, I think, too.
- [81:59]
Walker
Sorry, say that last part again.
- [82:00]
Angela
It's. It's malevolent, you know, like it's.
- [82:03]
Walker
Oh. Oh, okay.
- [82:03]
Angela
Yeah, well, that's. That's.
- [82:05]
Walker
The difficult thing is, you know, the old adage of, you know, don't attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence or something like that, but it's like, boy, sometimes there often does seem to be some. Some malice in there, especially with just the vindictiveness of some of these prosecutions. Right. That's what I don't understand is like, who wakes up one morning and decides, like, I'm going to misinterpret the law to try and screw over somebody because they wrote open source software? I just don't. I don't get what's wrong with you that you would wake up and want to do that. I truly cannot comprehend it.
- [82:36]
Angela
It's like it's very hungry and it perceives you taking away its food, and so it's going to smack you down really hard. Really hard. It's generally. I mean, I don't think that it's like really malicious and angry all of the time, but that you experience that as a reaction to anything that it views as a threat to its existence. And so it's like you just have to be on the lookout. Like, I just have to tiptoe really carefully, you know. Please and thank you. Please and thank you. And I try not to, I don't know, piss off the wrong people. I do, you know, sometimes, but I try to not to go out of my way to do it.
- [83:20]
Walker
I think that That's a difficult thing. It's a very difficult line to walk, and you obviously do it very well. But for, I think for a lot of people, there's. And this is why, I guess, like, anonymity and pseudonymity online is also a really powerful tool.
- [83:36]
Angela
Right.
- [83:36]
Walker
But there's also something powerful about actually putting your face or your name or both behind something that you're doing to show that, look, you can't just write this off as a bot. You know, this isn't just a Russian bot farm, right? No, this is a real. This is a real person. But when you do, when you, you know, when you put your face out there, you put your name out there, you are opening yourself up to, like, to threat vectors either from the state or from, you know, various actors. Like, there's a lot of people that benefit from the status quo. And it's a difficult line to walk to figure out how hard can you push without, you know, being. Being basically, you know, being being taken out or silenced or having Lawfare used against you? Like, Lawfare seems to be the really, the easiest way for them to do it, and it's the one that they can justify because they don't have to. Technically, it's not viewed externally as using violence, but, like, if you resist arrest, like when they FBI kicks in your door, they'll. They'll kill you. Right.
- [84:31]
Angela
Like, so it's like, crazy. And they use. They use individuals to do it too. You know, it doesn't always just come from the state. Yeah. I mean, I could tell you, being in the. Being in the Libertarian Party, you know, like, the lawsuits and attacks I've gotten, they're not all just from, like, people. They're from organizations that propped up a particular person. And most of those organizations used to receive usaid. It's. It's very. It's very thorough. I'm curious to see where the money will be coming from next year on all of this stuff. And weird. Like a small fry. You know, there are other organizations who, you know, the attacks are just insane. And then, I mean, yeah, they pull out the big guns for guys like Samurai Wallet. You know, they just go straight, straight at them.
- [85:21]
Walker
I even, I saw an interview you did maybe a couple of months ago with Ian Freeman's wife, talking about, like, her. Her talking about the experience of what happened and when the FBI came in. Like, you know, basically the FBI stalks you for a while and then claims that they, like, oh, we didn't even know that, you know, you were his wife or that you were There. And it's like, yeah, of course. Of course you did, you liars. Like, it's just. It's insane that you can just be made a target and then made an example of. And really, unless there's, you know, folks advocating on your behalf, like, unless you have some sort of an audience, like, so much of this, like, just gets. Can just be swept under the rug and you can just be kind of disappeared and put away. Like, think. I mean, I'm glad we have social media now because that gets harder, even for people who are, you know, very, you know, quote, small fries. But it's still like, they, you know, if they can. If they can do this, you know, to President Trump, like, of course they can do it to you.
- [86:14]
Angela
Right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Like, poor Roman Sterling of who was not even. He wasn't a US Citizen. He was. He has a. He has a Russian name, but he's. I think he's Swedish. I think I could be butchering that. Like, he. They caught him. He was coming through the United States to go to. On vacation in South America, and he was just changing airports. They pulled him out and nabbed him. And he doesn't have a strong support base in the United States, you know, so, like, he's just, like, locked up. And I reach out to him regularly just to be like, hey, you know, like, I'm. I'm trying to get you out. I'm still fighting for you. It's taking some time, you know, but, like, if you don't have that. That support base, you know, like, you just get swallowed and forgotten. It's so. It's so incredibly impersonal the way that it operates.
- [87:08]
Walker
For people who are listening right now and who are hopefully angered by this lawfare being used against software developers specifically, what is the best way for people to take meaningful action, to move the needle, to get involved?
- [87:25]
Angela
Yeah, if you go to free iannow.org, sign his petition, that would be great. I'm going to be launching one for all of them soon@cryptoprisoners.com. okay, great. That just went live, and we'll have the petition up within about 24 hours. And, I mean, you need to make your voice known in the midterms. You need to. Whether it's social media. I mean, I highly recommend you join the Mises Caucus and help us with our kingmaker strategy. I think there are going to be candidates who are running on this particular issue, and they need to be loud and they need to make their voice heard. You know, they. I try to always be the carrot. Right? I'm the carrot. I am sweet. I want to have a really good relationship with the administration. Someone needs to be the stick. And so I need a bunch of sticks. And that's the dynamic that we have to operate in. Right? I can't do it, but you can be the stick.
- [88:28]
Walker
I love it. So if you're out there and you are feeling more like a stick than a carrot, reach out and get involved. And I'll share both the freeinow.org and the crypto Prisoners website just in the show notes for people so they can check those out. But really, I do encourage people to use the voice that you have. It's also like, it's never been. I sort of jokingly, but also not at all jokingly very often tell people, like, you should just start a podcast. Like, you should just do that. You should just start creating media. And, and it's joking because there's this joke about, you know, we need more bitcoin podcasts. We don't need more bitcoin podcasts. There's too many.
- [89:05]
Angela
Right.
- [89:05]
Walker
The point being, like, there's never been a time before in history where independent voices could make themselves heard so easily as you can today. And like, so, like, look at the, in the last election, like, talk about, you know, media moving the needle. Like podcasts. President Trump going on long form podcasts and a bunch of them move the needle for him meaningfully, especially with younger voters. Like, this makes a difference. So like, you know, get involved, speak up, make your voice heard, start a podcast, start a, you know, start, start evangelizing for whatever it is you care about because you can actually move the needle now. And when you have that, you become harder to silence too, because then you, you know, you have, you have a platform. So, you know, make use of it. Make use of the tools that are at our disposal and get yourself on NOSTR as well. We need to get you back using it more.
- [89:54]
Angela
I do, I do.
- [89:55]
Walker
You dropped off a little bit.
- [89:56]
Angela
I need to use it more. Yes. So I am on it. I just need to use it.
- [90:02]
Walker
I'm going to blast out your account here.
- [90:05]
Angela
Please do. I was struggling to put in a proper profile picture. I was at the, I was at the Lake Satoshi Michigan Bitcoin Festival and they, the guys there set me up with it. It was, it was like kind of hilarious. They were all making it happen.
- [90:23]
Walker
I love it. Well, you know, that's the beautiful thing. Bitcoiners and folks on Noster are always happy to help others get started. Right. That's. That's kind of the beauty of it. Angela, thank you so much for your time. This is really a pleasure talking to you. You're welcome back, truly, anytime. Is there anywhere else you want to send people or direct them? Did we, did we cover enough? Anything you want to leave people with if nowhere else to send them.
- [90:46]
Angela
I think, you know, I think we got it at just, you can make a difference. Don't feel like you can't. 1% of the population can change the course of history.
- [90:59]
Walker
I say, I say amen to that. And that's a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks to everybody who joined live on Noster 2. Again, this is. If you're listening to this after the fact, this is your sign to go and get on Nostr so that when they inevitably ban you from centralized social media, you have somewhere to still speak and be heard. But Angela, really, thank you so much for your time. It was a pleasure.
- [91:21]
Angela
Thanks.
- [91:29]
Walker
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin Podcast. Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening and share it with your friends, family and strangers on the Internet. Find me on noster@primal.net walker and this podcast@primal.netcoin on X, YouTube and Rumble. Just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram @titcoin podcast. Head to the Show Notes to grab sponsor links. Head to substack.com walkerama America to get episodes emailed to you. And head to bitcoin podcast.net for everything else. Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.