← THE Bitcoin Podcast
THE Bitcoin Podcast
Nostr + Bitcoin vs AI Slop: The Fight for a Human Internet | Paul Keating
01:27:07
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- [00:00]
A
Some people are like, oh, you just spent like $10 million on a banana, idiot. And I'm just like, dude, every dollar you have is at the opportunity cost of buying bitcoin. Did you see what just happened? How many trillions poured into gold not too long ago? You know what happened when that happens to bitcoin? I get gas with bitcoin and stuff too. Like, I sell bitcoin on the spot and get gas. This is not the freaking XRP jungle. Like, where the hell can you use xrp? Everybody knows social media doesn't make them feel good anymore. There's like such a storm brewing. Primal and Nostr is the ultimate onboard to bitcoin for me. I've never felt bitcoin more alive. And I've always wanted that. It's magic every time. Every time I zap someone, it's magic. Every time I spend it, it doesn't lose its magic to me.
- [00:40]
B
You guys have a new release coming out here soon. Can you hint at anything? I'm not asking you to spill the
- [00:45]
A
beans, but like, I got a little bit of beans. We actually have a deadline. Usually we don't do that to ourselves because it's stressful. The one thing I could spill is we can't really hint at any other things, but it's gonna be huge. Is this nature's response to this whole centralization of power and control? I think so. That's what fires me up to, you know, go to work and think about this and shitpost and educate every day and zap like a crazy person.
- [01:21]
B
Paul, dude, glad we got a chance to do this. We were just talking off camera that. I mean, we. So we met each other. When was. When was nostarika. Was that 2023?
- [01:31]
A
February of 2023. March of 2023.
- [01:35]
B
So we're.
- [01:36]
A
We're coming.
- [01:36]
B
Actually, we're coming right up on the three year anniversary. That. That's why.
- [01:39]
A
So Primal's three year anniversary is when we're trying to ship 3.0. March 13th Friday, March 13th 13th.
- [01:48]
B
I love a good Friday the 13th. I. I think it's got good juju. I don't believe in the bad juju of it, you know, and forget. What. What's the actual. The origin of that is like I'm forgetting a bunch of. A bunch of people died. I think was the. Was the thing right? Was it like a bunch of priests got. I'm trying to remember.
- [02:03]
A
It's the increase really. I've never. I never looked into why a bunch of priests died. That sounds pretty Bad.
- [02:08]
B
Yeah, you know, I remember it wasn't nice. Let's. We'll. We'll look it up. Just because now it's going to bug me.
- [02:14]
A
Yeah, but it went down just like two miles over there.
- [02:17]
B
Let's see. Well, I guess it was just howl is unlucky for a while. How is the arrest of the Knights templar on Friday, Oct. 13, 1307, by King Philip IV of France? It's often cited as a key, albeit possibly coincidental event that solidified the date's negative reputation. Okay.
- [02:37]
A
What a powerful meme.
- [02:38]
B
We got it.
- [02:39]
A
1307.
- [02:41]
B
I know. In a been a minute.
- [02:43]
A
20, 26.
- [02:45]
B
We were. Okay, so three years ago, we were at Nosta Rica. That was an incredible vibe. We. Carl and I weren't even gonna go at first, and then Susie. Susie. BDDS convinced us to basically, and got Jack to note at us being like, hey, come. And it was like, well, how do you. I didn't even say no to that. Next thing I know, I've got bit by some sort of strange bug that I'm not even sure of. Ankle swells up to be the size of my face.
- [03:12]
A
Oh, no.
- [03:13]
B
Paramedic is. Is, like, treating me with a Z pack, and I'm like, this is still a great time, even though my leg is, like, just swelling up like a storm, you guys.
- [03:21]
A
He had, like, an ear infection, I think, too, during Noster.
- [03:23]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he did. He did. Man, it's. It's. It's wild. It feels like just yesterday, but it's been three years, and now it's like, okay, looking back, do you think that you would be. If you were to, like, let's say, go back in time to that Nostarika, you could have a view into, like, what you're doing today, where Noster is at today. Is it. Is it where you expected? Is it. Has it exceeded expectations? Has it lagged? Where. Where is. Where's your head at with that?
- [03:50]
A
I don't think you would have. Like, I would have believed you if you said that I'd be working full time on a Noster client named Primal just because I just happened to show up in my backyard to this cool thing that a bunch of bitcoiners were going to show up at, saying that it was important and it happened to be just, like, right where I was living. It's just kind of poetic how it's all. How it all came to be. But, yeah, I mean, there was so much hype in the beginning. And do you remember? I mean, I am A complete normie. Not anymore, really, with vibe coding in terms of the bitcoin community, I am a normie in terms of like tech and everything. So I still remember me and my buddy Matt putting together our endpubs on Iris to and trying to figure it out. He felt like such a hacky, cool guy, right? Like, oh my God, I got it working. Oh, can you see this note? No, you can't. All right. Why? I have no idea. But that was all so fun and everybody had so much fun with all the energy that was getting poured into Nostr and we needed that jacketing to happen now in terms of like user adoption today. It's like kind of not where I thought it would be exactly. But also it's just things take time and hype. Waves happen and we're still here, which is important and we're. We have such a stronger foundation now and there's another wave coming.
- [05:07]
B
I believe that's the interesting thing too. It's like, I think a lot of us thought especially being there at Nostrika was like, it felt like Nostra was about to really, really just blow up like crazy. It's maybe a good thing that it didn't just because of like the infrastructure was, was not there yet. Yeah, there were some great clients already. There was a ton of cool stuff being done, but like bootstrapping an open source, you know, bootstrapping on top of an open source protocol, like, that's obviously gonna have different growing pains than scaling up, you know, a centralized social media platform. And so it's like now I feel like there are so many incredible clients. There's so much stuff that's being done over and above. Just what the. What Just like the social media use case has been too like Nostro being used as a backbone for so much else. And so I feel like it's just, it's. We're at a much better place, more stable place now. So we're ready. We can take the millions and millions of people now. You guys are free to come now.
- [06:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, hop on over. We're ready for you. Yeah, but yeah, there's like such a storm brewing. We actually just had a little low key Noster dev conference. I was the only normie there and. But in Nosara in November and it was really cool getting to hang out with all these different members of the community. We had like Pablo Rabble and then the white noise guys all came down and it was just, it's good to be in the flesh again because so much more happens when everybody's together and. But just thinking about this perfect storm of stuff coming, like the whole white noise team, I feel like people are needing this decentralized style signal type app. Like, and then Divine coming back on Noster. That's absolutely enormous. And Olas is coming back. Pablo. So it's all happening still. It's just what's going to be the thing that, you know, pours it over to mass adoption or like, even just more adoption or, you know, steady adoption.
- [07:08]
B
Yeah, it's the whole, the whole vine thing. Did you use vine back in the day? Like, dude, I. I did too. I. I loved it. Like, I. What I loved about it was the fact that it was so simple and people don't remember. Like, if you. Especially for, like, people who may be younger, they may not know that, like, Insta. Instagram wasn't always like a, you know, basically video first platform. That's basically what is everything basically copied. The. The or, you know, tried to be TikTok on steroids, but at first it was like Instagram was just photos. Vine came out, vine blew up. And Instagram adding video was essentially a response by Instagram to Vine's popularity. To try and be like, hey, look, we have, we have videos too. But like, Vine, I. I love the fact that you just, you were forced to use that very narrow form of content creation where it's like hold and record sp. They splice together. You get what, seven seconds. Like, it forced you to be really creative and just think outside the box, be authentic. Like, I, I loved it. And so like, when I saw Rabble was bringing that back, I'm like, this is really, really cool. I've downloaded it. I have not played around on it yet. I've been too, too busy podcasting nonstop. But I need to, I need to. Because I think it's like, it's awesome. It's just like, that's the kind of stuff that people get really, really excited about.
- [08:20]
A
Yeah.
- [08:21]
B
Because I think it's like a mix of nostalgia, like a nostalgic. A nostalgic app, but built on top of new Rails and with greater capabilities. Like, that's a pretty cool combination, you know?
- [08:32]
A
Yeah. And like, they're not going to know they're using Nostr. That's like the whole theme now, right? Bitch at nobody knows they're using Nostr. Divine. They're not going to know they're using Nostr. So far, all we've had, seriously, as like, marketing firepower, was like, Jack tweeted about Nostr and we're building some Another. Another app, you guys, I'm telling you, you need another app. But, you know, so we've been marketing Noster. I think we're about to exit that phase with Primal. Not with this next release, but with what's coming in the future. But it's exciting. Just build a useful app, use Nostr as the back end, and next thing you know, we have like a thriving economy on there. And we already do, which is so fun too. Like, all this stuff was. It's been theorized. I remember when I first got into crypto and bitcoin and Web, thinking about Web3 stuff and like, oh, there's going to be these decentralized marketplaces. Uber's going to be decentralized, there's going to be blockchains for this, for that. Now we're like, wait, I don't think you need all these other chains and hype tokens and billionaire VC funds pumping bags of this strange social media landscape. Like, I don't know. So I feel like Noster is the answer to so many of those old, like the Web3 narratives.
- [09:46]
B
It's such, it's such a good point because for a while it was like this assumption that with all the ETH stuff and all the different, you know, was it Farcaster on Ether, all these, all these different, like web3 based initiatives, they all just basically they were just a front for being able to somehow have a token on top of it. Right? But it's like, I think that's. And that probably maybe made Nostr have less hype initially because there wasn't a way to just like, you know, somehow scam people or get rich quick on it or whatever else. It was like, no, no, no. Like it's just a protocol for communication. We happen to be using another protocol for, you know, money on top of it, Bitcoin. But like, you could put anything you want on there. You could use something else. It's just. No, no one else has a desire to do that because, you know, it's. Well, ultimately they were just trying to scam people in the first place.
- [10:32]
A
No airdrop, bro. When. Airdrop?
- [10:34]
B
Yeah, no airdrop. Oh my God. What, what's, what's even the point then?
- [10:37]
C
I don't know.
- [10:39]
B
I think the incentives because of that, the lack of any sort of tokenization or, you know, anything related to that. I know. So the incentives are just better. Like the developers that are building here too are more, I would say, value aligned with like just generally that open source ethos and trying to just build valuable, useful tools. Not trying to build a tool as a pretense for extracting value from people, but instead to try and give value. And honestly, like on Nostra, it's like the vibes are just better. Like, I remember when Blue sky was coming out too, and it was like, oh, man. Like Blue Sky. Like, you know, Jack obviously had funded some of that too, but, boy, talk about bad vibes, man. I. I went on Blue sky for a while and then I was like, I. This. I don't think this is a place for me. I don't feel very welcome here. It doesn't feel like a safe space.
- [11:27]
A
I mean, yeah, for me neither, but to each their own, right? I mean, they. They'll say the same thing about Noster, probably.
- [11:35]
B
It's true. It's true. Well, I want to ask you too, Paul, because you. You've done a pretty killer job on the content creation side, not just like on Nostr specifically, but on centralized platforms. We were talking about Instagram before this, putting out good aesthetic content, but also driving people toward Noster, and I think Primal, broadly has done a good job of that. Is that. I mean, how. How has the strategy been working overall so far? Because it seems like the strategy from, like, the outside looking in, in terms of what Primal's been doing is like, okay, get people over to Noster, period. A rising tide lifts all boats. If they want to use Primal, great. Obviously you guys would want them to use that. But I know from talking to Emilian, you know, he's basically told me multiple times, like, look, the biggest thing is they just start using Noster. They can use any client they want on there. We hope they use Primal, but, like, that's the beauty of Nostr. How. Have you seen the response on centralized platforms like Instagram? Like, do you. Are you getting a lot of interest? Do you still have a lot of people who are just, like, think it's some. I mean, do they even know it's a bitcoiner thing? Have they heard of it? Is it getting into. Onto people's radar or are we still, like, crazy early, just even from an awareness standpoint?
- [12:43]
A
Yeah, unfortunately, we're still, like, crazy early. Yeah, I've planted a bunch of seeds on Instagram, and thanks for all the compliments, but I haven't done a great job of, like, really converting. And then my closer friends who are in kind of the creative space and the health space, they all get it. It's just, what's going to actually make them spend any time and stay? That's the question. I haven't quite figured out and I don't have a great answer for them right now in the current state of primal and even it's just a social media use case of nostr. It's because like, yeah, there's, it's forward thinking, it's sovereign, which everybody's, you know, concerned with the sovereignty and the not being programmed by Zuck and all that, you know, censorship stuff. They'll get that. But like regular creators need to be on those other platforms because that's for their audiences and that's how people are getting their word out. Right. Like, so they gotta be over there and even just like mom and dad and you know, just like people that aren't creating consumers, their friends are on there so they want to be there too. So like, it's definitely a tricky thing trying to just get pure normies over there. So we need to create like maybe another reason, not just for social media, for people to come over. And that could be the Bitcoin wallet stuff. Like it's an easy use Bitcoin wallet. And that's going to change soon too. And for future release. I'm really excited about that too. It's just going to be a useful app for anybody. Like I could say my mom, my mom and my dad will be able to get use from it. Whereas now it's just like we have a social network without too many broad ranging perspectives or, you know, communities on there yet.
- [14:20]
B
So in terms of like the, let's say one of the big criticisms of Noster just generally is like, it's just this echo chamber. It's just a bunch of, you know, bitcoiners talking about bitcoin or talking about Noster, which is like fair.
- [14:32]
A
Yeah.
- [14:33]
B
But also I have seen and tried to follow is like whenever I see somebody that's like, I saw some guy recently that was like just playing violin every day and posting videos of himself playing violin. I was like, I'll, I'll zap that. I'll give this guy a follow. That's awesome. Like, are there other, like, what accounts do you have that you follow that are kind of outside of, let's say just the, like, I'm here for bitcoin or I'm here because I'm just super obsessed with open source and Noster. Like, what do you, what have you seen kind of on the general creative side that you thought was like just, just a cool account that you'd recommend people check out?
- [15:09]
A
I don't even know. My brain is so melted right now. Yeah, um, yeah, so many of my friends are just into the whole bitcoin thing. It's like, it's mostly an echo chamber, but like, I don't even have a good answer for you right now.
- [15:27]
B
Oh, okay. Well, we'll, we'll come back to. We'll come back to it. Yeah, maybe, maybe put a different way. Like, but you brought up the point about. Okay, it's really hard to get people to come over and stay when their audience, like they're sometimes very big audience is on Instagram or TikTok or X whatever. Do you think is that just like, is that just something that is going to just continue to take time or is that something where it's like, hey, we're missing this from the experience on Noster. We need this other type of social, you know, social app on Nostr, we need something else on Nostr. Or is it just like, look, there's a bunch of audience capture on these other platforms. You can't. And because they're centralized, you can't take that audience with you in any easy way. And so it's just like, listen, it's just a function of like, hey, we just need more time. Or like. Or do you think it's. No, we. There's stuff we need to build still that these creators would really want and that they would come here specifically for like that utility or that use case. Do you know what I mean?
- [16:29]
C
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- [19:32]
A
Yeah, it's. Well, it's kind of all of the above. So we did just see another app just go buku viral and went number one in the app store. It's called like up up something. Do you remember? Did you see that? It was upscrolled. It was called upscrolled. It went number one in social for like a day or two. I don't know what happened to it now, but that's just the proof that it's possible. So. But they weren't also marketing any protocol. It was like come to the app. So where we've felt before is like marketing nostr so hard. Like, okay, well then where do I go? Noster.com, you instantly get confused and scared. See so but yeah, that upscrolled went number one and it was for a specific reason and it was for a community which happened to be it was something to do with Palestine, Israel. I don't know what's going on with that, but just like a certain group of people were attracted to it and boom, super viral overnight. So that's possible. Even with people not being able to bring their audiences and whatnot. It's possible for Primal to unlock something. It might not even be something we plant. It might just be people get turned onto it for a second and then just goes, but we want to provide all the infrastructure that people are used to. One Other thing. And I just vibe coded this the other day and I showed the team because I'm a dev now, you guys. It's my dream to be a dev. I guess I've always wanted to have Vertical scroll in Primal for when you get on a video, whether it's on the trending feed or on somebody's media page, where you can just consume all their content like this. Because that's how we consume information. We're talking about divine that physically change how we consume information. The vertical scroll, whether you like it or not. And a lot of creators are optimizing for that. I do a lot on Instagram. Um, so I put a vertical scroll into Primal with like super clean Instagram UX with a fricking zap button that when you go up and down, it like vibrates your finger and it goes like, more, more, more, more, more. And then you go down, it goes down. And then you could zero it out. But, oh, my God, I've never felt bitcoin more alive. And I've always wanted that because there's been a couple TikTok exoduses during Primal. I'm like, oh, we kind of wish we had vertical scroll, but that's not really what we're building. We're never going to want to build to compete with like, Instagram and TikTok with their algorithms or anything. We are going to add algorithms and stuff, but that's probably. We don't want to, like, go try to play that battle. That's not something we want to do
- [21:56]
B
well, because that's the thing. It's like you're. You're not going to be able to. And this isn't like a. It's not a dig on Primal or on any Nostra Klein. It's just the reality. Like, look, trying to compete with the TikToks and the Instagrams, like, at their own game is going next to impossible, right? Like, you have to. You have to change the game a little bit. And like, the bitcoin side of things to me, like, it is shocking to me that that hasn't been more of a selling point for more creators.
- [22:22]
A
We're so crazy. Like, we literally tip people with bitcoin. Are you kidding me? I think. What I think's going on is we're literally building the foundation for a much better creator economy when I could be crazy. Or it might just be like this small segment of us that come over and we still can thrive. We don't need billions of users to extract from to be profitable now. We Just need some loyal customers to be profitable and, you know, make money and make a good product for, for our users without extracting from.
- [22:50]
B
I wonder too. Like, obviously things like Patreon got incredibly popular in terms of just having a direct way to support, you know, creators, journalists, whatever it might be, support anyone you want, you know, as a patron, basically. Nostr seems to be a really even easier way to do that and on a, let's say, a much more distributed basis, obviously, I'm surprised that we haven't seen that sort of use case take off a little bit more. Like, especially just depending on where you are in the world, what capital controls are there, what access you have to even something like Patreon or to the banking system generally. It's like, that's the beauty of Bitcoin is that. And on Noster, you basically have a social wallet where you can connect with any, anyone you want, creator or memer or just random, you know, your Uncle Bob, and you can zap them without needing to worry about what country they're in or what currency they use or anything else, because you're all just using the same, same currency, you're using Bitcoin, the same money. And so I'm curious if we're going to see that side just from like a pure. Maybe people aren't even using it for the social side as much. Maybe they're just using it. Like, look, this is where you can go, if you want to support my work, just go zap me on Noster. Like, maybe that ends up being like a really easy way for people to get around some of the, the problems with the legacy system. But again, it's like, you're right, we're crazy. Like, we're all crazy here.
- [24:10]
A
We're crazy.
- [24:11]
B
We're crazy early, you know?
- [24:13]
A
Yeah, crazy. Spending your bitcoin. Are you kidding me? Nobody spends bitcoin tipping bitcoin. No, bitcoin's slow. It's magic every time. Every time I zap someone, it's magic every time I spend it. It doesn't lose its magic to me. But yeah, crazy early. Also, like, it is just this. I'm not backing down and I don't think this will ever like Primal and Noster is the ultimate onboard to bitcoin for me still. And that hasn't changed since I've started zapping and since I started working with Primal. It is this fundamentally new experience. First experience, first touch for people with bitcoin and all the people I've just onboarded and showed them, they're like what? And yeah, maybe it's a little gimmicky. It's not like people are going to really earn a living yet doing that, but it. The fact that it's possible. And I was on Twitter this morning and they're talking about X Money. Elon was reposting and posting some screenshots about X Money. Did you see a little bit of that?
- [25:13]
B
Yeah, I just. I just saw that pop up and
- [25:15]
A
I'm like, well, here it is. WeChat of the West. Elon, like, he's gonna. He owns all the infrastructure. I mean, sure, he's trying to make it and then encrypt it underneath, whatever, but just the fact that he'll be able to turn on and off accounts and you'll have to put your real ID to it, like, just doesn't even sound like we. I mean, I'm better. Better. It's Elon than someone else, maybe, but like, he's just a man and they're just people and it's so cool. You can do this without permission. And this might be one of nostrils and Bitcoin's biggest marketing moments as well. Like, hey, here come. Do this. Attach any wallet you want. Be anywhere in the world. Everyone has access to it. I don't know. It. It's. It's beautiful.
- [26:01]
B
It.
- [26:02]
A
It.
- [26:02]
B
It really is. And, and yeah, in terms of the X Money thing, again, so much of this, that part of, like, not just okay, that, like, Elon, okay, is a better, like, at least a. I think a better steward of these things than most other people would be at this point. Like, I think he does truly care about free speech. Think he cares about freedom of expression. I think that he's also though, like, he's a. He's a person and you know, you never know what sort of pressures may be exerted on him. And that is the. The cool thing about no is that like, there's so much optionality. There is no single throat to choke, right? There's a bunch of different throats and you're not going to be able to choke them all, hopefully. But the tying of the real world, you know, physical identity to our digital identities, whether that be for the convenience of payments through X Money or. Or whether that be through governments like in Australia or the UK or wherever that are saying, oh, we need to ID you so you can use social media to protect the children. You know, just protect the children. Like, th. This all just gets toward a social credit system basically, where anything you do online or offline is ultimately tied back to that digital identity which they're tracking, tracing, connecting with your bank accounts and then able to shut off if you step out of line. And it's like people just seem to be sort of sleepwalking to that. But I guess it's the old thing of, like, people will trade freedom for convenience the majority of the time. You know what I mean?
- [27:26]
A
Yeah. Convenience is often the enemy. Yeah, I don't. I like, what are we building here? Is that really what we're building against? I mean, I think so. There's still other things to be solved out. Like, solved. But is this nature's response to this whole centralization of power and control? I think so. And that's what fires me up to, you know, go to work and think about this and shitpost and educate every day and zap like a crazy person. It's this amazing, beautiful alternative that we have.
- [28:05]
B
Can I ask you too, on the. On the promised side, you said you guys have a new release coming out here soon. What? Can you hint at anything without, you know, divulge? I'm not asking you to spill the
- [28:14]
A
beans, but, like, I got a little bit of beans.
- [28:16]
B
You got. If you got something you can talk about, like, I'd love to know kind of what's coming in the pipe for this. You said it was March, March 13th, right?
- [28:22]
A
Friday the 13th. March 13th or 16th. So we actually have a deadline. Usually we don't do that to ourselves because it's stressful, but the one thing I could spill is we're doing maxi madness on primal. So on Buster. So. Which is fun. So that means polls. And there's some fun stuff with the polls. I haven't played with it yet. And I'm really kinesthetic learner. I gotta like go play and see it and everything. But yeah, so there's gonna be polls and you're gonna be able to attach like zaps to it too, so it'll be extra interesting.
- [28:49]
B
Oh, that's super. So as in, like, the voting will not just be like the X style voting where it's like you're just voting. It's like, how many SATs? Like, I could send one SAT to the this answer or I can send, you know, a thousand SATs. Is that what you're saying?
- [29:02]
A
That's an element to it. So you'll be able to. It's like this kind of clear thing. Like, this is awesome. You just permissionlessly do this. Let's go.
- [29:09]
B
That's sick. I'm super stoked for that because that's been one Thing I've, I've been missing from Nostr is the ability to put out polls. Like, you can do a lot of just like, okay, yeah, just ask people for feedback in the comments. But like, there's something nice about having a poll, being able to get the answer. And then, I mean, if you're also getting sats in response to that poll, like, that's a whole new thing. Like, you know, you make a really controversial poll that people want to vote on with their sats. Like, you're, you're bringing in a lot of satoshis.
- [29:32]
A
Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I, who knows how? I mean, it's, it's live on other clients, but I think when Primal does, it'll really, you know, kind of make it a real thing on Noster. So it's going to be a fun experiment. Can't really hint to any other devs.
- [29:47]
B
That's okay, that's okay.
- [29:48]
A
But it's going to be huge.
- [29:50]
B
I'm, I'm stoked for it. Well, let me, let me ask you this. You mentioned, you know, one of the things you'd like to see is kind of the vertical or vertical scroll for videos and whatnot. And that's the, you know, you vibe coded something out already. Maybe this will actually get merged in there. But in terms of like, I think you said something about, okay, we're not, that's not the direction that like, we're trying to go with Primal. What is kind of the, the vision where you guys see yourselves? Because I know there's like a lot of stuff being built out too, like the Primal kind of creator studio and all these other things. What's kind of the long term goal in terms of how you guys are positioning your. Excuse me, positioning yourself in the nostroverse? Excuse me.
- [30:28]
A
Okay. Without giving anything away. Yeah. We built Studio. It's all just kind of infrastructure for when we get a bunch of creators over here. And the long term vision will not change. We want Noster to be the backbone of the global town square and we want to do that and build a social experience in a way that is actually saving you time. And we're going to monetize your time saved instead of monetizing your time spent. So how we're going to pull that off, can't tell you yet, but I, but, but we do have a plan and it. Yeah, I'll leave it at that.
- [31:03]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [31:05]
A
Yeah, it's gonna be fine.
- [31:06]
B
Okay. So I'm, I'm always. Now I'm even more intrigued. I Was intrigued already. Are there, are there features in other Noster clients that you guys look at and you're like, oh, damn, that's really cool. Like we should roll that in. Like, do you guys. Because this is like a, you know, people are building out in the open. You can see what other folks are building. Most of the time it's open source. How much does that factor into what you guys are doing? Or do you kind of have your road map? You stick to that and it's like you're not, not as concerned with what other people are building. Okay, they've got something cool. Yeah, great, let them have that. People can use it over there if they want to. How much does that impact the way you guys think about like what direction you're taking this? Do you know what I'm saying?
- [31:44]
A
Yeah. So the way I see it right now, except the vertical scroll thing, unless somebody comes out with the killer feature, which I don't know. I don't know if we'll ever be able to kind of catch up fully to all the legacy platforms. I think we're about complete and we don't really fomo other ones too much. Like, you know, sometimes people will come out with the voice. Voice note. Should we go add that guys? I don't know. Stay focused. So that's not something we're really too worried about. We at one point want it to, you know, be we're thinking about videos and bigger videos and files and as you probably know, it's not the best experience. Long form video and stuff on nostr. That's a direction we're going away from right now. So event maybe one day we'll want to add more log form videos and have better UX around that. Yeah. But we've got the reads, we got the anybody can write an article. By the way, a lot of people think that it's only studio. You just go to primal.net on web and you can rip yourself an article. I don't want to see more reads on there. Yeah, nice.
- [32:48]
B
What message you switching gears a little bit. You are a new dad now. Six months into it. I'm not too far ahead. I'm only a couple years into it. How is dad life treating you, man?
- [33:00]
A
Dad life. It's the best man. I crave baby smiles. So six months is awesome too because like she's, she's, she's here. She's kind of landed, but she's not running all over the place right now. So I, I hear this is like the golden window. Is that is that true?
- [33:18]
B
Yeah. It's like the time where you. If you set them down somewhere, they just kind of like stay there. And then you get to the point where very quickly it's like you. You can't just set them down somewhere because they are. They're gone. Like, they're. They're, well, crawling around, then running around and like, then they just don't stop moving. And like, that's awesome too, because you can do a lot of different things, but you just have to pay a lot more attention too, because it's just like they are. They get mobile very fast and then they do not stop. So, yeah, enjoy the. Like, everybody always says, like, you know, oh, like, you know, the next part, the next part, like, it gets better and better. Like, and it does, but it's also like, I don't know, each part is so, so amazing. It's like you got to savor that experience when you're in it because, man, it. It's true what they say. Like, you blink and it's like they're a year old. Then you blink and they're two years old. I'm sure I'm going to blink and he's going to be, you know, 18.
- [34:06]
A
Yeah. This is ridiculous. These freaking boomers were all right. They were right.
- [34:12]
B
All the cliches were right. They were all telling the truth.
- [34:16]
A
Yeah, it's annoying. Like, for real is six months already. Are you kidding me? But I think my favorite part of all of it is just how much it brings a family together. This is first grandchild grandkid for both sides of our parents. We both have both of our parents still, so it's a major blessing for both of them. Then flying down to Costa Rica, I was just like, mom, I gotta go to Austin. Can you come to Costa Rica? Two hours later, I booked a flight. You know, they're just craving the baby smiles. Well, and saw some to see that. And just watching my sisters and with them, with.
- [34:48]
B
With Maya, the family side of it is like, it is amazing. And same for us. It's the first grandkid of the family. So it's.
- [34:56]
A
It's just curious.
- [34:57]
B
How long have you guys been in. Been in Costa Rica?
- [35:00]
A
We've been down here since. I've been down here since December of 2021.
- [35:04]
B
Okay.
- [35:04]
A
And then I think it was About June of 2022, I magically moved to what was becoming the bitcoin jungle. And it's like, okay, so now I get to live out my thesis of living off of bitcoin and seeing this Place evolve in the last three, four years has been insane.
- [35:30]
B
Did you know it. Were you a bitcoiner already when you moved into bitcoin jungle? Or like, was that part of it? Or did you become a bitcoiner as. As part of that move?
- [35:39]
A
So I, I was, you know, class of 2017, but I didn't meet anybody until November of 2021, I believe was the first conference in El Salvador. And I got to meet a couple guys from Cash App, including Miles in El Salvador. And then I was like, why have I never met a bitcoiner in my life? What have I been. Because I've been on Twitter, on the Reddit, you know, just consuming 40 hours per week back then too. Like, you know, just consuming and consuming. And I was too broke to even go to the conference. I was just kind of like driving from California to Central America and I got to meet these guys and also met John Vallis and it like, kind of filled this intellectual hole, this, I don't know, maybe spiritual hole in a way that, yeah, getting to meet these people in real life was amazing. So it kind of started there. And then I had to purge everything by the time I got to Costa Rica because I was like, jobless and basically camping. I had a car and I had some shitcoins and I purged them completely. And it's like, okay, now all I have is bitcoin. And now it's more convenient for me to spend bitcoin. And then I ended up here in bitcoin jungle where I got some work to do and stuff anyways. But, yeah, now I get to fully live out the thesis of living on a bitcoin standard. And luckily I get paid in bitcoin. And it's. I mean, it's not always easy, but it's cool. It's what we all want. It's what we're all going to. And actually getting to play with it and play with our bitcoins here every day feels right.
- [37:21]
B
It's one of the other reasons I love, like, your videos about spending bitcoin, because you hear all the time from people, like, not from bitcoiners, but from people who like to fud bitcoin. Like, nobody uses bitcoin as money. Bitcoin's too, you know, slow. Like, they ignore the presence of the lightning network. They like to just, you know, dig up these old tropes about bitcoin. But I love your videos because it's just like, hey, you know, at the farmer's market, just send. Sent this lady some sats Got some, you know, fresh fruit, got some whole milk, whatever it is. Like, those videos, I think, are so important for people to see. Like, look, all it takes is somebody willing to accept it and somebody willing to spend it. And it happens like that. And like, these.
- [38:00]
A
And you could just do that.
- [38:02]
B
Yeah. Like, it's. But it's like, it's magic. And, like, I'm like, shout out to you for making these videos. Because, again, people need to see that kind of stuff because it, you know, and it helps. Like, you've got, you know, you've got cool hair. You're always shirtless. Like, it makes people stop that scroll, I think. I hope, you know, like, maybe makes them pay attention. But, like, though, have you gotten. Because you post those on, like, centralized social media, too, obviously, bit bitcoin, obviously, people, Most people have at least heard of it now. Like, pretty much almost everyone's heard about bitcoin. Do you still get a lot of the, like, bitcoin is a scam type things even on those videos? Or, like, you. You're faking it. Bitcoin doesn't work. Or, like, what kind of responses do you get to that stuff?
- [38:39]
A
Oh, a lot. Like, oh, that was a bitcoin. Bitcoin's too slow. Oh, how's the fees? And then some people are like, oh, you just spent, like, $10 million on a banana, idiot. And I'm just like, dude, every dollar you have is at the opportunity cost of buying bitcoin. So anytime you spend money that could have been $10 million of Bitcoin or whatever, you know, I'm like, okay, that guy's bullish. There's a huge. There's. I think the bitcoiners are the smallest minority on Instagram. I think a lot of bitcoiners forget that Twitter is tiny social network compared to, like, Instagram and TikTok even. There's way more XRP people on there, I think. So we got to make our presence known, even on these other platforms feel pretty strongly about that. And it's cool to see it actually working in some of these videos. Like, taking off. Yeah, it's really bullish. I was just walking around this festival last weekend, and a bunch of people stopped me. We were like, love your bitcoin videos. I was like, really? People are seeing this stuff. It's hilarious. All right. Yeah. So more. I'm like, man, I filmed the same video 25 times already, but no more. That's like, just my little role to play in all this. And we each have our role like, you're doing this podcast. That's why I didn't realize in 2021, before I met any bitcoiners, was that, like, me being on the sidelines, you know, that ain't it. Everybody's little story matters. We all got to post. We all got to be part of this thing and feed it with our time and energy. And it all matters. And it all. It's all compounding.
- [40:11]
B
I mean, amen to that. And just to go back to what you said about, let's say, the lack of bitcoiners on Instagram, I hadn't used Instagram in a while. Like, I would occasionally post stuff on, like, my personal account, which I keep private on there, just to, like, stay in touch with old friends and whatnot. But I started one for the podcast and started looking around, like, just searching. Like, if you just, you know, search for bitcoin and see what videos pop up, and it's like, oh, my God, most of these are just like, XRP shills or other crypto shills talking about shitcoins and like, they. Ha. They, you know, they hashtag bitcoin, so it pops up in there. But it's like, there's very few bitcoiners who are actively posting on Instagram. And the ones that are, like, most of the accounts, I mean, mine is like, pretty small on there. It's like 17. 1700, you know, followers on there for the podcast account. Like these. These crypto accounts on there, though, it's everywhere. Like, it's. And it's, like, gnarly because a lot of them, especially the XRP shills, they tend to. On Bitcoin and then shill XRP, like, that seems to be kind of their M.O. which is a bummer because it's like, if you're just randomly consuming content on Instagram, maybe you don't know much about bitcoin, and you go and, like, some stumble across some of these videos. Like, you're getting the worst possible information. You're getting the worst possible.
- [41:25]
A
The worst intro.
- [41:26]
B
Like, it's awful.
- [41:28]
A
I went to go make a response video. I'll probably rip it tomorrow or whatever. Like, you know, fighting the shitcoin narratives is not fully a waste of time. It kind of is, but, like, me and you kind of are the OGs. It's our turn to fight them for a bit, and then we could just go retire on Noster, you know? Like, I don't. I. A lot of. A lot of people that were just pure bitcoin maxis and stuff. On that I would follow when I was kind of learning and on my journey and when I used to hold XRP and everything, they really did steer me in the right direction. I feel like now it's time for us to fire back.
- [42:10]
B
Yeah.
- [42:10]
A
And I still can't believe it exists. This is not the freaking XRP jungle. Like, where the hell can you use xrp? It's literally just the monkey tiny brain just thinking, oh, it's 10 cents now. It can go to 40 cents or a dollar, and I'm going to be rich. It's like, did you see what just happened? How many trillions were poured into gold not too long ago? You know what would happen when that happens to bitcoin?
- [42:29]
B
Bull.
- [42:31]
A
You know, you could just have a deflationary or not deflationary, but, you know, you can just save in something that doesn't inflate away. Like, guaranteed to zero.
- [42:41]
B
Dude. It's rough. And I agree with you. It's. It's one of those things where when it comes to the shitcoiner narratives, it's a little bit tiresome to, like, constantly feel like you're. You need to battle them. But I agree. It's like, we're, you know, we're. We're not OGs. I didn't get into Bitcoin until 2020. I. I've ignored bitcoin for more years. Like, I first heard about Bitcoin, like, 2014, ignored. It was just like whatever nerd to my friend who was trying to about it, like, paying attention to him. Didn't ignored it again in 2017 and bought like a litecoin instead. Because I was like, I don't have much money right now. I can't afford a full bitcoin.
- [43:16]
A
I mean, Jack might be right. What's your stance on that? The bits or sats? The whole.
- [43:21]
B
I like sats. I like sats. But I see the argument for bits. I just think it's like, boy, I don't know. I go back and forth in this same. Maybe I have a bias towards SATs, like, just because it's what I'm used to and I have to train my brain to see. Like, whenever I see a wallet that has them denominated as bits, it like, takes me a second. I'm like, how many bitcoin are in there? And it's. Oh, okay. No. So, like, it is. It is a retraining thing.
- [43:46]
A
No, but when I'm teaching someone, like, I always go, these are bits of bitcoin. It makes more sense. It does.
- [43:55]
B
It does it does, it does.
- [43:57]
A
But I'm kind of a shot match as well.
- [43:59]
B
Yeah, it's just, it's sticky, you know, it's sticky. But I'm glad that there are at least different options for it. Maybe people, you know, whatever appeals to them more, they'll identify with that. But yeah, it's, it's, it's tough with the shitcoiners because they just continue. I feel like the shitcoins are very obviously still a dying breed. Like, they're going to keep coming out and keep coming out, but, like, we know that over a long enough time horizon, they're all trending to zero versus bitcoin. The problem is that I think, and I probably wouldn't be as vocally as anti shitcoin in a vocal way as I am if it, it just could be a waste of time if it weren't for the fact that so many people get burned by shitcoins, get into shitcoins, get burned by it, and then assume bitcoin is the same thing and then ignore bitcoin for another five years. Like, like I did. And like, I don't want to see that happen. I don't want to see people get burned by shitcoin. Sometimes maybe that's the only way they're going to start learning about bitcoin is by getting burned. But I think for the majority of people, they. They think that crypto and bitcoin is all the same. Bitcoin gets lumped in that bucket. And so they just, they assume bitcoin must be a scam too, because all their exposure to crypto has been getting scammed, getting rugged, whatever, like, and I think that does hurt bitcoin adoption for the people that need it most, you know?
- [45:15]
A
Yeah. And that's why it's cool to kind of live it here because it's just like, okay, look, three years ago my eggs were this price and now they're this price. They're this much cheaper now. Like, I remember spending Bitcoin at 17k around here. So, like, even though we had a fat dip, it's just like, well, you win some, you lose.
- [45:36]
B
How many businesses in the area in bitcoin jungle are accepting bitcoin?
- [45:41]
A
I mean, over a hundred easy with all the farmers markets. And like, it's not hard to live on a bitcoin standard here. And then the tool that bull bitcoin made here where you could sell bitcoin with very limited low kyc, just a phone number and an email, and it goes into their Venmo style Account here, you sell it to a phone number. So I get gas with bitcoin and stuff too. Like I sell bitcoin on the spot and get gas. Pretty rad. So you just do that down here and. Yeah, it's not, I don't, I know of like one shop that used to accept it and doesn't anymore. People just take your money. And now since they have that easy off ramp, you know, they can have it at very low risk. Like they can get it and sell it right away for less of a fee than a credit card. So that's part of the sauce that makes this happen. It's really cool too, to see it all happen at a grassroots level. Like Lee. I'm at the bitcoin jungle, like office right now, by the way.
- [46:40]
B
Nice.
- [46:41]
A
We got a gym and a sauna and ice bath down here. I'm on the third floor. There's a cowork downstairs. The kids hang out usually in the afternoons. Um, it's all coming together. But Lee used to walk around with a bucket of cash to cash people out after farmers markets if they wanted to. But that was back in the early days. So it's evolving. Well, I don't know. Bucket, maybe a little, who knows? Fanny pack?
- [47:04]
B
Yeah, no, it's, it's cool because I think these circular economies, whether they be like, I think noster is probably the biggest, you know, circular economy in the, in the digital space right now, which is awesome. But the physical ones, I think that is such an important thing and does really show people, like something doesn't have to be massive and nationwide or whatever for it to make a huge impact. Like it is often enough to just have that, like, local community, have that community be tight and like everybody there benefits from spending and receiving bitcoin and like that is a beautiful thing I think. And I hope we get towards more of that in terms of getting back to smaller communities, tight knit communities, communities where everybody knows everybody, there's high trust within the community. But you can still use this amazing trustless money on top of that. Right? Like, we want trustless money, but we want trust in people. Like ideally, you know, we don't want, we don't want to not be able to trust our fellow human that we're living next to. But I feel like we just. People have gotten so used to spreading out or being in really, really, really big cities where it's like you're just a, you know, just a face. Like nobody really knows you. It gets a pretty cool thing to see what bitcoin has enabled for some of these communities, whether it be like in. You've. I'm sure you've probably surfed in, in El Zante before. Like that's, that's just a, that's an awesome vibe there. And like this I, I want to see more of these circular communities popping up and go visit more of them. And like, I think they're only going to continue increasing because the ones that are out there, like it's like it's successful, like it is actually working. You know what I mean?
- [48:38]
A
Yeah, exactly. And this is like, this is the end stage of Bitcoin and you can kind of choose to live that now. And now it's even easier to kind of choose that within with your friends and family, even in the States with Square and yeah, you could just purchase stuff on Noster now with sats and just have it get delivered. You know, it's like use the thing, use the toys that the devs are giving us from the open source communities and developers. Yeah, it's cool.
- [49:08]
B
Are there outside of like, okay, we talked a bit about what you guys are building at Primal and everything in terms of other. That idea of you using Nostr as this backbone for something else that's maybe not social media. We saw like Bitchat obviously has built in Nostr features, but even just like other marketplace or other things, are there other sides of Noster that you're kind of excited about that are outside of the social media realm of things that are outside of like something that's, you know, you guys aren't trying to build at Primal, but like, hey, somebody else is building this. It's kind of outside of social media. That's really cool. Like, is there something that's on your radar for that?
- [49:43]
A
Mostly just the messaging stuff. If they can match the UX of normal, you know, apps. This whole CEO's being heroes of free speech is so cringe to me. Like the whole Elon even like the Rumble guy, like haven't fixed the root cause and that is we need to be able to do all this permissionlessly and sovereignly. Like maybe the market has spoken. It's been, you know, they haven't chose the sovereign way yet. Maybe they'll be forced to one day. I don't know how it's all going to work. Maybe it's going to be hybrids. Maybe it's going to be like just this right to exit with Divine. They're going to have a way to hold their keys, but then they can give them to you after or something like that. So just regular email password. But yeah, the whole sovereign messaging thing and the end to end encrypted messages with Noster relays in between. No central server be able to spin up anything without a phone number. That sounds like some awesome tech that's really needed. And maybe we just throw it in primal one day, you know, with everything built on these open protocols. So that fires me up too.
- [50:52]
B
Yeah, I'm super stoked about like White Noise that, that Jeff G. And that team is building because these are, they're tools that I think a lot of people, I think this is where a lot of NOSTR is right now is it's like us trying to share the message, which I think was what a lot of us, myself included, were sharing initially around nostr. When we were first getting kind of really excited about it was like, look, you want to be able to use something that is uncensorable, where you can hold your own keys, where you can be, you know, more sovereign in terms of, you know, owning your, owning your actual data, owning your, you know, account. But it's not even an account, it's just you own this cryptographic key pair and look, you know, if, if you get censored like on a centralized platform, you're screwed. But here, I know. So that can't happen. But like the reality is a lot of people just don't care about that yet, but they will. Something like they may not care about encrypted messaging that's transmitted anonymously over nose to realize like with White Noise may not care about the Marmot protocol that's, you know, they built out as well. But like you will someday. Like, yeah, I mean, rather use it first before you really, like before you really, really need it. Like you'd rather have it figured out before then.
- [51:57]
A
I would think, but I would think as well. I, I mean, I get a little cosmic about it too, man. Maybe it's too much jungle, but just dude, every time we post something into somebody else's little box, like every time we post something into the Zuck's world, we're just empowering him, empowering that whole entire ecosystem that's obviously extracted, but it's like you need to be on meta ads right now if you're a business too. Like, so it's, it's so tough, but it's so cool that what all this represents and it's been theorized for forever, I feel like. And I think this is our best shot at actually making it all happen.
- [52:34]
B
Do you think the next like big wave of Noster adoption, assuming. I'm assuming there will be one. I'm assuming there's gonna be many waves for a very long time. But like the next big wave, do you think that ends up coming from people running away from censorship, centralized social media, whatever, like trying to escape something? Or do you think it's from people that are going to be running toward just a better experience or a really cool, you know, something like Divine Right, that's like this nostalgic, old but new experience? Do you think it's going to come from that running away or the running toward? Because it seems like so far we've mainly seen. We saw like the Jack wave. We saw the, you know, Snowden, he brought a big wave as well. Some of the crackdowns on platforms in other countries brought some various waves of things, some censorship on Reddit or other things like that. Okay, there's been these waves, but it seems like besides the Jack and Snowden, which were people running towards something that they were talking about positively. So I guess that could go both ways. Like, it seems like we haven't had people really diving into Noster specifically because they're running toward the great user experience or the great optionality. It's like, it's mostly been people that are like, either directly fleeing from something or are really worried about needing to flee from something in the future. And so that's like, that's why they're here now. But, like, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it because I go back and forth on this, like on what's going to bring and more people, you
- [54:02]
A
know, I mean, maybe we'll get more creators on there and then they're gonna get it and they're gonna make videos and great propaganda. Besides, like, we only have Max's, you know, great Noster documentary. We need more of those out there. There's so many good documentaries, like the Social Dilemma, right? Do you remember watching that? You have that. But you put like an actual solution to this. Like, hey, this is humanity's messy, but we have this way to do this without giving these platforms complete control over everything about our lives, to just harvest our data and everything. So it could just take a nice wave of propaganda, but it also could just take something breaking. You know, you could just. X could break. X could get banned in a lot of different places. Medic. Same thing. So it could take that, it could take just a viral wave. I mean, that's what I'm trying to. I'm just, you know, making a stew, just stirring the pot, just Throwing stuff out there, seeing what sticks and might just accidentally start a movement. I mean, I used to work for Saladino. We got freaking Kennedy in the White House now talking shit about seed oils and putting raw milk in everybody's face. Like, dude, this is all possible and it's going to be a fun ride. I don't know how long it's going to take, but it seems like a lot of fun. We're seeing Rumble gain a lot of popularity just by marketing free speech. And, yeah, they have some of their own cool infrastructure. Not much is different about it, though. It's just the people went over there, and then some creators went over there and they figured out a way to incentivize creators in the beginning. Listening to his story with Rick Rubin not too long ago, and, yeah, there's this kind of. This magic. It all takes a little bit of luck. It takes survival for these social networks to scale. So I don't want to pretend like I know the magic pill. I mean, our thing on the 13th and 16th will cause some noise. I'm excited for that. But again, it's probably the gravity of the network that's going to lift everybody up and it's going to just be useful.
- [55:55]
B
I think that's fair. And I do. I agree on the creator side. Like, it really does make you get a couple of larger creators that are, you know, whether they're, you know, normie creators or whatever, or political, you know, political influencers, whatever that might be, but people that have really large audiences. And I think maybe one of the reasons that you haven't seen stuff like that right now is because. Because, like, X elon did take over X people. The. The sort of de platform that was happening on YouTube too, kind of slowed down a bit. You know, people started getting some channels back.
- [56:29]
A
Yeah, regime change could change a lot, but.
- [56:32]
B
But exactly. It's like. But a couple more years depends on who's, like, in the White House here in the US or in whatever, you know, parliamentary houses around the world. Like, things can change really fast. So I think maybe we got lucky that this is like a little bit of a lull, right? Where everyone's like, yeah, free speech is back on all the centralized platforms. We don't have to worry.
- [56:50]
A
And then it's like, I thought bitcoin was going to a million in 2017. And I thought again, in all the bull markets, like, you know, I don't understand same. I don't understand with nostr. But then at the same time, looking back, hindsight, like, my God, Lightning was nowhere. We didn't have ecash. We didn't have all these different ways of possibly scaling Bitcoin Spark Ark. Like, we need all this for bitcoin to scale and to get to millions of dollars and reach billions of people. And then for Noster, like, oh, my God, we had all these broken clients. And when the jacketing happened, and then Primal was just looking like this a couple years ago. Like, no, it wasn't ready. Why would people go to that? It's just like this knockoff thing. So, no, build something new and give it our best shot.
- [57:31]
B
It is interesting. One of the biggest, like, criticisms of Noster I still see if I post about it on X, is people saying, oh, well, I tried it, but the. The UX was so bad, or, like, or it doesn't work, or whatever. And you ask them, like, okay, well, when did you try it? What did you try? And it's usually like, well, I tried it in, like, 2023. And. And then they had a bad experience and they just didn't try it again. Like, that initial touch point does make a huge difference. It's sticky people's heads.
- [58:01]
A
If we had the jacketing right now, but also if we didn't, we wouldn't be here, probably. So. Right, right, right.
- [58:09]
B
Yeah, we need a jacketing. The jacketing to the. The rejacketing, you know?
- [58:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. So I wonder what we're gonna listen
- [58:17]
B
to this if you're listening to this right now. We need the rejacketing.
- [58:21]
A
Yeah, I mean, he does his part. He still has Primal in his bio on Twitter, which is amazing. Like, but there's some things we gotta change. You know, something that he's always been kind of manifesting is just starter packs in Cali with the following space. You know about that. That's something we saw and built into Primal that no client's done perfectly, in my opinion. And we need to do that just like, friends bringing friends. Make tools that are. Make it easy for friends to come on. And like. And I built something I still can't believe. Vibe coding, you gotta get. I listened to an episode with Derek and Alex, who are wizards. It's so fun. And even guys like us can do it. I. I built this whole tool where you could just rip your content from Instagram and. And generate it and, like, bring it to Primal, like, super easily. Even people who created a Keith pair a while ago can just log in with Primal now, put in their Instagram name, and then sign it again with their Primal. And it's all Just appears in the same date that they brought it over. Same with substack, Twitter and Instagram.
- [59:26]
B
Dude, that's.
- [59:27]
A
And TikTok.
- [59:28]
B
Does the substack come over as a long form then?
- [59:31]
A
So your substacks don't. Won't look good. But the normal substacks where people are just writing like yours is. Yeah, it'll. But yeah, it'll go in as reads.
- [59:40]
B
Wow.
- [59:40]
A
Wow. Yeah. And that's.
- [59:42]
B
That's slick.
- [59:43]
A
It's pretty slick. And then I also figured out a way to do it for someone. Cause this is all like, I'm a hacker dude, like trying to hack a social network. I had no idea how to do this. But one of the things was like, why would somebody want to start from absolute zero and repost all their content like on there from scratch? Like, who knows where to even go dig that up in your photos and everything. So that's what's cool about this tool too is I found out a way to make. To like gift an account. So I upload. Say someone has a Twitter, an Instagram and a substack. I could do all three of those in one gift. They just get a link and it just tells them to copy the key and then it prompts them to open Primal. And that'll make them download Primal. They just enter their key in there. All their content appears. And I built in there a way for them to auto follow a couple friends that is in there too. So like, I don't know. That's a scheme I have coming and it. The. The site's live right now. It's called ownyourpost.com. you should play with it and let me know what's broken.
- [60:42]
B
But own your post dot com.
- [60:44]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Own your posts dot com.
- [60:47]
B
Okay.
- [60:47]
A
Yeah. Pretty rad.
- [60:50]
B
Did you use Shakespeare or did you.
- [60:53]
A
No, that was all Claude code.
- [60:55]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [60:56]
A
I want to build some Nostr apps too. I want to build like. I mean, I think somebody did it. Scrabble. We used to play Words with Friends every day with my mom in college. And I think, you know, little things like that, like games going viral, then just. You have to generate a key pair without users even knowing. You know, Nostr can scale like that. There's just infinite ways of all this to happen. And like Alex said, like I've said before, it's just this Cambrian explosion of apps that's just happening because you could do it all without permission. So it's this nice perfect storm that. That's brewing. Like it's all happen.
- [61:29]
B
What are your thoughts on like the micro app versus the, the super app on Noster. Because obviously Primal does a lot. But you guys aren't trying. You, you know, you've already said you're not trying to do everything. Like you're still trying to stay focused. I know Jack had talked for a while and still does about that idea of like what he sees is like, okay, we have just, you know, tons and tons of different micro apps, really specific stuff. But you're don't need a different account for each one. You just still have the same key pair that you're using for all of these. How, how do you see that? Like do you use yourself a bunch of different apps on Nostr? Are you pretty much just using Primal? Like how do you see that playing out?
- [62:06]
A
So did you see what we just built with the login with Primal?
- [62:09]
B
Yeah, yeah, I've used it. It's super slick.
- [62:11]
A
Isn't that sick? So like it's really nice. It can get extremely smooth. Um, I don't know if we did post about how smooth it can get, but Salantis and Olaus are implementing it and you literally just click once it redirects to Primal, log in and you're back in. And it's like, this is it. And people have been memeing about this forever. I don't want to create another username and password. Here we go. Login with Primal1 1 Key all your apps and then that'd be cool to have a hardware device for it too. Just imagine entering your NSEC and having all the apps just appear and you're already logged into everything. That'd be amazing too.
- [62:49]
B
I think you're right that it is things like that that reduce the friction because like, yeah, okay, you mentioned, you know, the initial experience of. And I had the exact same thought. Like you felt like such a cool like you know, as a non hacker, you feel like a real hacker, you know, setting up your public key and your private key and you know, it's, you know, if you. I've already used Bitcoin, you're kind of okay, least a little familiar with this. But for people who haven't used bitcoin at all and haven't, you know, are, are real normies. You're not a real normie, Paul. That's you G. I'm. I'm not falling for this but for us real normies that like, what do you mean? I don't like where can I put my email? Or where do I need to sign sign up? Like, what do you mean? I just Generate a public private key. Oh, if I lose this private key, it's just gone. I have to start over. Like, I think that is a huge friction point for people. I think it freaks people out, to be honest.
- [63:34]
A
Yeah, Rabble's talked a lot about that.
- [63:36]
B
They want like customer support where it's like, please reset my password for me. You know, it's like, no, that's like you get one. But like. So I think that that is still a huge friction point. So anything we can do to make that easier, which I think you guys have already taken a really good step toward. I think that's huge for just smoothing the onboarding experience.
- [63:54]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, man, I've had some friends lose accounts and I'm so. Well, it's all Godspeed, man. This is going to happen when it's bound to happen. Same with bitcoin. I think it's going to happen. I mean, bitcoin, I'm more positive about that has to happen Noster or something like it is going to happen as well. And it's a good thing that we haven't reached mass adoption yet because people just lose their accounts. There's reasons for this. Right? We did add save to icloud for your key pair as well for iOS, which I've been asking for and begging for. Domus has had that this whole time. That makes me sleep a little better at night. Of course there's a couple trade offs, but Apple's pretty good actually about that stuff. So, yeah, things like that. We're not going to go first with having some sort of an email password type type situation, but we're going to watch that with interest. We're going to see what the vine does. Yeah. Be interesting.
- [64:53]
B
Have you been using Divine?
- [64:55]
A
A little bit. Because like all of us, it was so shit when Rabble announced it. I was like, holy shit. Watching it go viral because that got like I think 36 million or more impressions. It's like, oh my God. And Ravel nailed something there. The whole proof of human thing that he's building in there, that's something. That's a killer feature. Right. But I've used. And then the last time I checked in the video were the videos were working. It was getting smoother. I could actually the editor was working. So yeah, it's coming. And you'll be able to see those in Primal. I'll give away that too.
- [65:32]
B
Oh yes.
- [65:33]
A
Okay.
- [65:33]
B
We got another tip.
- [65:34]
A
Yeah, so but that's, that's cool too because like if they, if all these old creators get Back online, be able to see like Logan, Paul and like all the. Maybe what are some of those other names I forget that used to use Vine. Get back on there and you can just see it in primal and why can't I zap you? But you know, we'll get to that.
- [65:51]
B
Yeah, step by step. I do love that proof of humanness thing. Or like, look, we, we specifically want to not have AI generated content here and I think that's really cool. I think that's, that's going to be a, a bigger selling point than people realize as we go forward. Because you, you know this because you're still like, like I am. Yeah. Like I use Nostr every single day. I also use centralized platforms. Right. I, I do, I often chill Noster on those platforms as well.
- [66:19]
A
Yeah, we're very grateful for you. Great job.
- [66:21]
B
I, I do what I can. Right? Yeah, it's my, I'm not a dev. So like, you know, if you can't code, you know, podcast and maybe now with AI, if you, if you know how to po, if you know how to code, you might need to learn to podcast pretty soon. That's a different story. But what I was going to say is like, there is so much slope. Like there's. You go on X and like I, I just, I mute stuff if I see like, look, you're obviously it's either bot generated, like you're either just a full on bot or you're just using some AI to write all of your posts. And I can tell, like I don't want to waste my time with that. I want, I want a filter for humanness. So I know that if somebody's posting this, they actually took the time to like think about it and write it. They didn't just outsource their thinking to feed me some slop. Like I want to know what you're thinking, not what the, you know, an AI reasoned for you and put into a long form text. Like, no, no, I want the humanness. And I think that we're going to see that desire accelerate and accelerate and accelerate and having things like Divine or just even building that. You know, I think, I would hope that more of these, even the centralized platforms would build out filters like that. Like, hey, I want to filter out content that is most likely generated by a bottom or generated by AI. Like I at least want the option because I just, I don't want to see all that slop. I'd rather know that something is real and human and was generated by a human being.
- [67:41]
A
Isn't it obvious.
- [67:42]
B
Maybe we're in the minority. I don't know.
- [67:44]
A
No, I don't think so, actually. And yeah, people, I see all these posts and stuff, but, like, they don't. Why am I logging onto this app right now? Like, what am I searching for? And it's all kind of ripe, in my opinion, for improvement. Kind of forgot what I was going to say. But oh, yeah, how much of a signal is it that Jeff Booth just freaking hooked up some. Some bot to his Twitter and is like, hey, I'm just here, you guys take the slop. And it gets reposted like crazy every day. And then he's just like, for real on Nostr. That's amazing.
- [68:19]
B
When I saw him doing that, I was like, this is a Jeff. This is brilliant. I saw him in person shortly after he started that experiment and talked to him about it. And I think it's like, it's brilliant. It's. He's, he's. He's basically just very subtly, or not so subtly, if you kind of saw his posts on Noster, like, you know exactly what he's doing, but for everybody else, he's sort of giving this subtle signal that, like, look, you're only going to get AI Jeff. And yes, it's trained on everything Jeff says. It says things that Jeff would say if you don't know any better. You might think it's actually Jeff, but it's not. He's only putting his real human time into Noster. And I think that is like such a. I know, it's. It's brilliant. When I saw that, I was like, damn, Jeff. Like, that is. That's smooth. It's really cool.
- [69:03]
A
Super smooth. I think shortly after that, Odell hooked up a Stay humble stack Sats bot.
- [69:08]
B
Odell was just itching to get back on.
- [69:10]
A
Oh, of course she was. Yeah, let's do a slore it.
- [69:12]
B
Yeah, we know that. What's the real reason
- [69:17]
A
right now? Yeah. Oh, man. But yeah, this whole verify that you're a human thing, that's just another question, like, how are we going to do that on Nostr? And then. But yeah, like juxtaposing your experience on Nostr, when you hop on another platform, you can feel them doing anything they can to keep your attention there. And a lot of times the slope because it's so weird. And this extra normal stimuli will keep you there and they like that. So then it's shown to more people. Right. And that doesn't happen as much on Nostr. Yeah, there's slop on there. Yeah, there's some people hacking the Primal trending algorithm and whatever. But it's gonna be interesting going forwards. And, like, how are we gonna prove you're human? Oh, maybe just come to a conference down in Costa Rica. I'll scan your mPub, make sure that you can zap from that one. Check your zap receipt. Boom. There's a human that controls that input. That's not a freaking world coin orb scanning your eyeballs, you know, like. So I think there's another way to do this that isn't so, like, dystopian. And is it going to all be on nostr? Is Nostr just a piece of it? Is there going to be Web5 resurrection? I don't. I don't know. It's past my pay grade.
- [70:32]
B
Well, no, and I think it's. I'm very curious at some of the kind of like, social graph or there's a couple other names that have been used for it, but basically utilizing people's. You know, it starts to sound like a social credit score, but it's not. It's like it's a community almost a community score. Right. Like, okay, yeah, X, Y and Z. People have met this person in real life. This is a real person. We verified it. We've, like you said, you know, we, like, somebody has verified. Yes, this person with their npub, showed it to me in person. I know it like, I know that this is them. It's real. Because that's another thing, like, just even from a. Not even from a slop perspective, but like, from a security perspective. Like, the scams man, are going to get so much worse. And this is why, like, the only way you're going to get around that is like, hey, this was signed by Paul's. By Paul's private key. Like, I know this is from Paul because he signed it with his private key because so and so confirmed that, yes, Paul is still in control of that private key. Like, this stuff sounds like, oh, that's. You won't. Like. I think we're not far away from really needing that.
- [71:33]
A
Yeah.
- [71:34]
B
Almost every interaction that we have online. Because it's going to be so hard to tell, right, if someone's actually themselves, whether they're in control of, you know, that that private key, if it was compromised somehow, that's going to be a hard problem. But I think that like Noster plus Bitcoin as a way to also add an economic incentive to that is at least probably not the whole solution, but I think part of it, at least I hope.
- [71:59]
A
Yeah, I mean, Gigi always says the proof of work plus the web of trust will fix like 95% of the Internet. So I hope and think that's true.
- [72:08]
B
Yeah. I mean, let's see. I'm super bullish though, broadly on Nostr and honestly the fact that since we started this conversation off talking about Nosta Rica three years ago now, again, wild. But it's been three years. It. The improvements that I've seen across many different apps. I mean, I was using Domus then, I'm still using Domus now. I use Domus and Primal are both my daily drivers. I use them both multiple times a day. I use Zap Stream as well. I occasionally use some other ones. I was using Highlighter Pablo until you stopped working on it because you started working on Olas.
- [72:47]
A
I'll forgive you, but the. Pablo's working on like 55 things at once, man.
- [72:52]
B
Dude, I know. He's.
- [72:53]
A
The guy's wild.
- [72:54]
B
He's wild.
- [72:54]
A
You know how many agents he's got going now? He's just. It's crazy, man. Like the people that have been paying attention, oh man, they're like a hundred people at one stone.
- [73:03]
B
It is. It is nuts. And he was already like 10 people at once. So like he's got. Yeah, he's got a little bit of an advantage. But no, like, what I would say is this. If somebody's listening to this and they are not yet on. No, if you're just a subscribe to the podcast. First of you all, thank.
- [73:17]
A
Thank you.
- [73:17]
B
Paul and I have been live streaming this on Noster. It works. People have been in the chat sending me sats. Thank you guys. To everybody who sent sats, by the way, so far. Let's see what. How many SATs. I've got a. I don't know where. Don't know where it went, but thank you. Multiple people sending sats here in this chat. That is like. That is amazing. No, is you should give 13024sats so far. Thank you guys. Thank you to everybody who is watching live on Noster. That is awesome. It's real, the experience. If you tried Nostr. I'm speaking again, people who are not using it every day right now. You tried Nostr a couple years ago and you thought this doesn't work very well. You were probably right. But it's gotten so much better. It's gotten. You won't even recognize that it's gotten so much better. And you have optionality. So I would just really encourage people. Try Nostr again. Try it for the first time. And if you're a content creator, if you're already posting on like five different social medias and you know, a blog and all these other things, why not at least post on Noster as well? You can probably automate it too if you wanted to just scrape your YouTube videos or whatever else have it.
- [74:20]
A
Yeah, let me know. Just hit me up for that. I got you. Yeah, I've built that.
- [74:25]
B
Paul's got it. But like yeah, what's, what's your, what's your kind of pitch these days to let's say people who are not yet on Noster, whether. And the pitch is obviously different depending on who you're talking to. But let's say you're the pitch to, to content creators like your friends who are, you know, maybe not as orange build or not as purple build yet. How do you, how do you talk to them about Noster?
- [74:53]
A
I tell them it's just like, it's just the standard, it changes per creator. Like yeah, I was super gung ho about this free speech thing but that's like not as much of a narrative anymore then the owner content. But then what does that really mean? So it depends. If I'm in the flesh, I'm like, watch this. I can just send bitcoin like that. You can get bitcoin. So that's still what I say. But yeah, I show them the different apps as well. If I'm in the, if they're getting mind blown by that you could see their content in multiple apps. So that's part of it. But I don't know, I've kind of eased off the gas pedal right now before because like we had what it was Primal 2.0 for a while now. Now that like the next stage I'm going to go freaking hard and see what works. And now that I have this tool to like bring their content with them, like why not.
- [75:42]
B
I'll, I'll link that in the. I'll link it in the show notes, own your posts dot com. But honestly it is incredible that again people like you and I who are not, I mean I did like some C in, in high school and whatnot, little things but like you know, forgotten most of that. I pretty much just remember if then else maybe a for loop or two but like I can't code but now like I can do some pretty cool stuff or at least get something to like a minimum viable product that I never would have been able to before. And that is like a hugely powerful force I think.
- [76:15]
C
And we're still so early in this
- [76:16]
B
vibe coding journey, you know what I mean? It's only going to get easier, smoother, more streamlined. That's why I love what Derek and Alex are doing and shout out to you for bringing up that episode too. It's like Shakespeare is super powerful and you can build yourself a Noster client. Actually, funny story. I got a. I got a strike on YouTube because I linked the Footster client. The page for the Footster client. Yeah, I didn't realize, like, that it was gonna just. Apparently YouTube scans those links and it said, like, there was nudity in this link. I'm like, oh, like, I don't know what posting. So I like, delete. I'm like, okay, well, that's my first YouTube strike. But you know what? Worth it for. Yeah, for the meme.
- [76:53]
A
Derek, for this.
- [76:54]
B
Derek made me Vibe code Footster.
- [76:56]
A
You know what else kind of resonates to creators and just people, too, and friends. It's like everybody knows social media doesn't make them feel good anymore. Especially like Instagram and even Twitter. Like, most of my friends are mostly on Instagram, not even Twitter. They know it doesn't make them feel good. They know they're addicted and TikTok. So that's something else I say, like, hey, we're building this thing that gives users more choice. Algorithms are opt in. And I want, without saying it directly, that we're trying to build, like a healthier social media. So that's kind of what else I would say to a creator. I think that little fomo, that they're early too. But.
- [77:34]
B
Yeah, well, right, right. But no, that it's a really important part. Like, you know, if you spend enough time just doom scrolling on X like, you feel bad, man, like you don't feel good. It's not.
- [77:45]
A
Yeah.
- [77:46]
B
Especially if you're just going by whatever the algo is feeding you. If you're not, like, searching out specific content from people that you follow, like, you will. It gets you in a weird headspace. But you don't get that on Noster. Like, you don't come away feeling the same. It's. And you're right, social media generally makes people feel bad, depending on how they're consuming it. I mean, it's a tool like anything else. Right. But it's a tool that's been gamed to really keep your focus, keep your attention. Noster doesn't have that same gamification of it. And like, you don't come away feeling like every time you log on to it, you know, but still, Somehow you come chasing those dopamine hits on centralized social media again and again.
- [78:21]
A
It's wild.
- [78:22]
B
And, you know, you feel like crap afterwards. You know, it's wild.
- [78:25]
A
This is. Yeah, it's just the name of the game. I tried to take a week off last week, and I honestly failed. It's kind of pathetic. Like, I accidentally looked.
- [78:33]
B
Of centralized social media.
- [78:35]
A
No, of, like, just kind of working everything. Because we're gonna do. I'm ready for a little sprint now. But, yeah, I tried to take a week off, but then I looked at Twitter, and then I was like, if I don't, like, make myself way smarter with AI and figure out how to use these tools, I'm gone. I'm done. But, yeah, it's crazy. AI is awesome because it saves us time, but I feel like we're in this weird zone right now where we're spending more time on the screen trying to figure it all out. I think that's going to fix itself eventually. But, yeah, strange time.
- [79:14]
B
It is, man. And. And, you know, it's. It's one of those things too, where especially, like, you know, we're both, you know, have young kids, you know, or young kid in both our cases, together. Young kids, like, you know, amazing, amazing wives, amazing kids. Like, you want to spend as much time with them as possible. Like, that's the whole. That's the whole meaning of all of this, right? Is spend as much time with those people you love. And so having, I think Noster has honestly helped me build much healthier habits, because it wasn't until Noster that I realized just how destructive.
- [79:49]
A
Yes.
- [79:50]
B
Like, that the centralized social media could be. Like, I. I couldn't see it entirely until I had the contrast of how you feel and how you experience Noster. And I'm glad that that came around like, before we had our. Our son, just because, like, I don't know, it's. It's very easy now for me to be like, you know, arguing with so and so, like, on. On X. Like, that literally means nothing. That's not gonna help anyone. It's not gonna make my day better. Why am I doing that instead of spending time with my awesome wife and awesome son? Like, that's just. That's just dumb. So I think it helps to. Noster does a good job of helping you to put things in perspective by showing you what social media can be like and that it doesn't have to be so addictive, doesn't have to make you feel like shit. It doesn't have to keep you Glued in there. You can use it, put it away, like, and not have those same, like, you know, dopamine withdrawals that a lot of people get. And so I think that's like, setting people up for just those healthier habits is a very underrated perk of Noster, at least for me. And it sounds like for you.
- [80:46]
A
Yeah, that's exactly. I mean, it. You just feel it. You feel it so hard. Like, I unfollowed everybody from Instagram now, and it's way better. But in a way it's worse because you hop on the app and then you can't turn off algorithm at all, at least not on iOS. I haven't figured it out for, like, the Explore page, when you go to search somebody and it's just like, does everything that they can to keep you there. And you can fill that on Nostra, like, I hop in and I put a pinned feed. So my first thing I see is stay focused. That's something that you could do in Primals. Advanced search is like, create your own feeds. It could be a feed of just your friends on there, but little things like that. Having the ability to customize what you're seeing and being in control of what you see is what is a critical piece to this healthier social media that we're all trying to build. I love it. And it's so funny. All the developers of Nostr right now, they're also based and they'll hate social media so much that they had to go build it. It's kind of ironic.
- [81:45]
B
It is, yeah.
- [81:46]
A
And you can feel that DNA in all the clients. I mean, the revolution will have good ux, but the revolution, I don't think, would be just trying to hack your attention at all costs.
- [81:57]
B
Well, I want to thank you for giving me a bunch of your attention and your time here today away from your beautiful family. Maybe. But just as we. As we wrap up here, you know, so that I can clip this into something to, you know, purple pill. More normies. What are there some. Maybe we could start with this. Okay, how. What is, like, the fastest way? How quickly can people get started with Primal? And what are maybe some tips and tricks with, you know, not even with your new features, but with Primal 2.0 that people can use to, like, get the most out of the experience. You mentioned the. The. The different pinned feeds and things like that? What else maybe might people be interested in? Or maybe people that are already using it that may not just be aware of everything that's going on? Like, what are some things you would want people to say, like, okay, get. Get set up on Nostr. Try this. This is going to make your experience better, like, from day one.
- [82:45]
A
All right, so day one, you're new to Primal, new to Nostr. Make an awesome introductory post, say, hey, I'm so and so. I do this. I like this. Here's how I found Nostr. Here's a photo of myself, hashtag introductions. There you go. Then you email or DM me, Paul in the jungle on any platform and say that this is me. And then I repost it and boom, you get Bitcoin. It's magic. You get to feel Noster. And maybe people will find it before they. Even before I even reposted or anything. That. That's. You don't want to just hop on there and then not post. Like, get on there, introduce yourself, and then start interacting with the community and you'll be able to feel it right away, what's different and then what else in the app? I just want people to know that they can. Well, first of all, anybody can write an article by going to primal.net on web and then clicking into the Read section, my articles, and then they can write. I want people to use the Read section more often. Um, and then I also want people to know that they can edit their feeds. So you'll touch, like, the latest tab on the top and you can turn on, like, trending 24 hours, 4 hours, whatnot, you could change around the order of all that. So you. Yeah, just in more control.
- [84:01]
B
That is, I think, a really, a really nice feature. And one of the things that initially on Nostr, people complained about was like, ah, there was no, like, in case you missed it or like, because it, you know, when it was just straight chronological was the only feed anyone had. Like, it was tough. Like, if you didn't happen to be online within, like a certain window of somebody's post, nobody had retweeted it recently. Like, you'd miss some cool stuff. So, like, this to me was a huge. A huge, like, leg up there. This was a really big improvement, I think, and I'm glad to see, like, more clients have also introduced something similar to that because it just. It makes the experience better.
- [84:32]
A
Yeah, like, we need algorithms on Nostr. They just need to be open source and people need to know what they're doing.
- [84:41]
B
Amen to that. Well, Paul, I've kept you here right up until the time it was great to chat, man, this was a blast. Hopefully we can do it in person. I need to make it back down to Costa Rica. It's very. I'm jealous of you being shirtless outside right now. I'm wearing like a thick, like wrangler sweater thing here and it's fucking cold outside and brutal in northern. The northern states here. But where can people find you? Where can they go? Check out Primal. Anywhere else you want to send people?
- [85:08]
A
Yeah, just Paul in the jungle, on Primal, on Instagram, Feel free to message me. I get back to everybody, hit me up with any questions and get on Nostra. I'll zap some stats and next time you're in Costa Rica, I'll give you a coconut.
- [85:21]
B
Sick. I'm going to take you up on that, man.
- [85:23]
A
Yeah.
- [85:23]
B
Thank you to everybody who tuned in on the live stream. I appreciate you all. I appreciate the zaps. I'm gonna. I'm gonna have to pay half of these forward to. To Paul, I think, for. For being such a great guest here today. But thank you.
- [85:36]
A
Have a look at the chat.
- [85:37]
B
Appreciate everybody who joins in on Noster. This podcast always goes on Noster Live first and then, you know, if you're not on Nostr, you just get it, get it later with everyone else. But you can be on Nostr and you can get this live as it happens in real time. And you can send me sats, which I know you're wanting to do. So, Paul, cheers, man. Appreciate it. This was a blast. Best to you and your family. And yeah, hope we get to chat again soon.
- [85:59]
A
See you soon.
- [86:07]
C
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of the Bitcoin Podcast. Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening and share it with your friends, family and friends, strangers on the Internet. Find me on Noer@primal.net Walker and this podcast@primal.netcoin on X, YouTube and Rumble. Just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram at tcoin Podcast. Head to the Show Notes to grab sponsor links. Head to substack.com walker America to get episodes emailed to you. And head To Bitcoin Bitcoin podcast.net For everything else, Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.