← THE Bitcoin Podcast
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- [00:00]
Mills
I low key think of myself as trying to help heal the public image of bitcoin because a lot of people, however, they first heard about it. I mean, this is just human psychology, but like, your first impression tends to be hard to supplant. And so if they thought it was drug money for Silk Road, or if they thought that it's money laundering, or if they thought that it's like an incel in the basement playing video games, that's probably how they still think about it. And it actually takes a significant rewrite and, you know, neural pathway reconstruction to say, actually it's freedom money. Actually, there are a lot of really cool implications. It's like we're day walkers pretending that we're normal. We're still not normal, but we at least are normal passing foreign.
- [00:59]
Mads
Plebs.
- [00:59]
Walker
My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast. Bitcoin continues to create new blocks every 10 minutes. And the value of one bitcoin is still one bitcoin. If you are listening to this right now, remember you are still early. Head to the show notes for sponsor links. Head to substack.com walker America to get episodes emailed to you. And head to bitcoin podcast.net for everything else. Without further ado, let's get into this bitcoin talk.
- [01:38]
Mads
I don't have like my. The Jamie to my Joe Rogan. Not that I'm comparing myself to Joe Rogan, but like, what? I don't have the. The Danny to my Peter McCormick. You know, I. I don't have a yet. You know, I've been honestly thinking. I'm like, fuck, it's like about that point. Like, I kind of like need to hire somebody, but I'm also like, that's. That's like a lot of SATs. And I also, I wouldn't say I'm a control freak in any way, but like, I have like my workflow. I've got. I've got everything, like, figured out. I do it like, pretty damn efficiently for like a single person workflow. And I'm like, is somebody else going to mess up that workflow? I don't know. But it's getting to that point where I'm like, I. I just don't have the time to do everything. So we'll see. Maybe I'll get my Jamie slash Danny someday soon.
- [02:24]
Mills
The. If. If you're looking for some words of wisdom, this is. This is what I would love to give you as a. As a present, as a gift. Host gift. Uh, someone once told me you're probably more competent than the people that you would hire to do something. But if you are the only one that is doing anything, you are fundamentally limiting your growth potential. Potential and capacity. So as long as you want to continue expanding and growing, it is crucial. You know, trust is a scaling solution.
- [02:57]
Mads
Yeah.
- [02:57]
Mills
And you have to ultimately delegate and trust and equip and empower people to come alongside.
- [03:05]
Mads
Man, that was, that's, that's really solid advice and I agree. And like that's the thing. Like I've, I've, like I've known this, you know, where, where it's like, okay, if you want to actually grow this in a meaningful way, like, you just, you don't have the time to do it yourself. Like, you need people to do the other stuff so you can spend more time actually focusing on growing it. But then again, I'm like, well, you know, I'll just, I'll do that next month. Like, ah, there's too much going on now. I don't know, maybe I'll do some headhunting at, in, in Las Vegas and see if I can find somebody. We'll see. They need to be super based though. But I don't know, can we find a based bitcoiner? I don't know.
- [03:41]
Mills
That's tough out there. Honestly. I was commiserating with a friend at Thames in Austin last week. The Texas Energy and Mining Summit. How there are so few jobs in the bitcoin space for non technical, non dev roles. It's so rare to be and that's part of, I guess, segue. I'm so happy and thrilled to be at BPI because of the very few jobs that do exist that are non technical. Typically they're associated or connected to a product or a service or you know, they're just, they're building versus, I mean we're building, but we're building relationships at BPI and connections.
- [04:28]
Mads
Well, and I. Let's, let's just like, let's take that thread and just run with it.
- [04:33]
Walker
Can we start out?
- [04:34]
Mads
Can you both introduce yourselves without doxing, you know, yourselves. But who, what, what, what nim should we call you? Who are you? And, and maybe like how did, how did you both end up at bpi? Cause I feel like I kind of like you were both doing other things and all of a sudden it was like you were both there at bpi. BPI is doing all sorts of incredible stuff which I want to get into. But like how, how did you both end up there? And what, like, what drew you to.
- [04:58]
Matt
That I'll, I'll jump in first since I, I was there slightly pre meals but very grateful that and feel like a little bit a part of getting to have her.
- [05:10]
Mills
You'll get a shout out, don't you worry.
- [05:12]
Matt
Really it's all Mills getting, you know, getting her job. But I was extremely thrilled to have her join the team since she's also been a friend for a little while in the bitcoin world. But beyond I last year, about a year and a half ago joined BPI for a temporary like just coming on as their kind of single person to help with the summit beyond the three full time team and like two part time people. Actually maybe just one part time person at that time. So very, very small group. And I came on and helped do the summit last year and it was awesome. And then about sometime last summer I started as Grant and David's assistant. Um and slash also handling events to an extent. Um, as we've gotten a bigger team, especially a team that's based in D.C. i like my role has shifted there but I kind of just help where I can. It's really fun getting to do what I like to do. I was volunteering for doing a bitcoin related events up until this.
- [06:25]
Mads
So.
- [06:25]
Matt
So it's kind of like right up my wheelhouse. Although this has been a very atypical bitcoin event world which is kind of another cool thing. It's like a merging of like the normal people world with bitcoin if that makes sense.
- [06:43]
Mads
Are we saying politicians are normal though? Because. Right.
- [06:47]
Matt
No, but different. Where people like wear suits for example to attend things. That was just, you know, I used.
- [06:59]
Mads
To not typical bitcoin conference attire that's for sure.
- [07:02]
Matt
People wore like button downs and slacks and suits and then I didn't for several years once I got into bitcoin. Ever see a suit at a bitcoin event? And now we're back. So it's, it's been very cool.
- [07:14]
Mads
The suits came full circle. It was, it was only a matter of time before the suits came.
- [07:20]
Mills
We're so back. I also feel like there's the kind of being able bedside manner but also the let's say social capital, social graces, social skills that I think there's a spectrum within the bitcoin space. There's actually a lot of different spectrums within the bitcoin space. And I think we're out here trying to in some ways I, I low key think of myself as trying to help heal the public image of bitcoin because A lot of people, however, they first heard about it. I mean, this is just human psychology, but like, your first impression tends to be hard to supplant. And so if they thought it was drug money for Silk Road, or if they thought that it's money laundering, or if they thought that it's like an incel in the basement playing video games, that's probably how they still think about it. And it actually takes a significant rewrite and, you know, neural pathway reconstruction to say, actually it's freedom money. Actually, there are a lot of really cool implications. But anyway, sorry, tangent off of. It's hard to be. We have to. It's like we're day walkers pretending that we're normal. We're still not normal, but we. At least our normal passing we're normal.
- [08:45]
Mads
Presenting like we. You throw. You throw a suit on a bitcoiner and like, you kind of forget that they're a little bit of an anarchist. And I mean an anarchist in like the. The true sense of the word. Like, not in the Hollywood sense of like Mad Max, but in the, like anarchist, like, from the Greek, without rulers, without chiefs. Like, that's ultimately what bitcoiners are. Which, which is why I find, like, Bitcoin, the Bitcoin Policy Institute, to be such an interesting thing, because it's like a bunch of people who I know and have heard talk about how deeply they, like, care about Bitcoin, and a lot of whom are very, let's say, anti state or anti state control and anti centralized authority. That's why they're into Bitcoin. And yet you're actively. I mean, it's. It's a. It's a think tank, technically. Right? That's like what the. That's the D.C. jargon for it. Like, it's a think tank. Right?
- [09:38]
Mills
That's what we are.
- [09:39]
Mads
Okay, maybe let's. Let's like, start there. Like, what. So, like, what does a think tank do? Like, is it just like a lot of. Just a lot of people pondering at.
- [09:49]
Matt
Any given time right there in the name.
- [09:51]
Mads
Yeah, yeah.
- [09:53]
Mills
But we sit in a war tank while we do it.
- [09:55]
Mads
Okay, okay, okay, yeah. Like, maybe like. Okay, so jokes aside, like, what. What do you. What do you view as, like, what is the goal of bpi? Like, what. What. What do you hope to accomplish? Because, like, I think a lot of people have now seen the different summits that have been put on. Like, big names at these things. Obviously Senator Cynthia Lummis has been very prominent at them. She's kind of a staple at many bitcoin events now and from the multiple times I've met her, seems like legitimately an incredibly decent person and like, very not the kind of politician that you typically see around D.C. but like, do you hope to kind of create more or bring more people in that are like Cynthia Lumus? Do those people already exist? Is it about persuading other people just not to like, try to stomp bitcoin out? What.
- [10:47]
Walker
What do you. What's the goal?
- [10:50]
Mills
Well, I'll. I'll give my how I got to BPI story. We got distracted to the goal, so it's the perfect setup. I've been in the bitcoin space professionally for about five years and more on the media side, more on the storytelling side, both with Bitcoin magazine and thank God for bitcoin and Pub Key. And honestly, this is where Mads gets the shout out. I had been traveling last year. I kind of took a sabbatical mostly off of bitcoin, off of Twitter, off of everything, and traveled. Went to all 50 states in one year, which was crazy. It was a really crazy thing. I didn't actually start out the year planning to do that. It. It kind of by Thanksgiving, I decided that I should just full send because I still had Alaska. That was the tough one to. To get. But on my travels, I swung through and was able to go on a walk with Mads and grab a coffee. And that was, I think, the first time I knew that BPI was going to be hiring. And I knew. I've known David and Grant, the co presidents of bpi. I've known them since before BPI existed. And when I was at Bitcoin magazine, they would just be like in one of our conference rooms writing on the whiteboard, like, memeing this into existence. Like, what if we do this? And, you know, we would say things like, oh, you're making a super pac or oh, you're lobbyists, or, you know, we were, we were joke. It was very playful at the time and over the years. Yeah, the, the summit. This is going to be our third annual summit. But the summit began to be a thing that was a very important, you know, in the portfolio of bpi, but the goal of Bitcoin Policy Institute. And I think this is where I like, I'm super happy to be here. And I know most of my friends are like, that's cool. I know why you're doing that. There are some bitcoiners that are probably similarly politically and ideologically viewing the world as I am, but they Will have kind of a reaction like, why would I even care? Why does it even matter? Why is it important? And I think there's like, that brings us to the goal, which ultimately it is relationships. And Cynthia Lummis, like, yeah, has become kind of the bitcoiner people's senator because she is talking about it. And the real, the reality of right now is there is a vast chasm and void of education and understanding about bitcoin. So I think, like tagline, snappy, BPI exists to demystify bitcoin to a lot of people. And I think the, if it, if we don't have these foundational relationships with Congress and executive and regulatory, like, we want them, we want BPI to be the go to source for any government official if they have a question about bitcoin. Because like it or not, there will be legislation created, there will be laws and sanctions and there will be control that will be written and that will be passed and that will exist and it will impact everyone. So, yeah, you can head in the sand and you can say, like, oh, you know, D.C. is the swamp or what. You can say whatever you want. And, and there is a truth in that. You have to, I think the point being, like, go to where the decisions are being made to influence that through education and awareness and also like raising the profile of bitcoin to say, hey, we're. We're a nonprofit. We're a 501C3, fully dedicated and focused on helping, like the case, make the case that bitcoin advances American interest and also influence and inform people to be able to craft policy that helps bitcoin grow and that protects American bitcoiners and companies. And I think there is. There is a value, there is an importance. Obviously, I'm passionate enough about it. And I think that's where after working in the space and then taking this year off, there were not a lot of things that I thought were worthwhile doing with my time. And I wanted a job that I felt like I could put my weight behind and be very passionate and know it mattered. And it is such a really prescient time to be working in this space because the administration is so open and so friendly. This is. We gotta do it right because it's so much easier to make good law, good policy, then fix what gets written and is broken and breaking. And we're feeling the impact of it. Sorry, long rant. Thank you so much for listening.
- [15:59]
Mads
No, like I said, this is always a safe space for rants. I mean, first of all, Mads Is there anything you wanted to add on top of that? And then I've got just kind of like a follow up.
- [16:08]
Matt
At risk of basically restating less eloquently what Mel's just said, I'll throw my two cents in. I agree. I have a lot of people I. A meetup and a lot of like times people come up and they are very kind of anti even being associated with the political world. And I, my, my response is, you know, I live in America, I do love my country and I don't have the resources or the want to flee the country if things get oppressive. So ideally I'm going to want the best laws, the best, you know, like legislator, sorry legislature for, for bitcoin because I'm pro bitcoin also. So it, it's kind of, yeah, it's, it's like kind of working in the weeds. But you're. And, and some people I don't think necessarily even have that same tendency to like be slightly against political world that Mills and I might have. But you know, that are associated with bitcoin. They may just be all pro bitcoin policy which is great and I think that there's definitely a balance. But yeah, I just want it to be the place I live. I want companies, bitcoin companies to be friendly to them and like so there'll be more bitcoin businesses. So yeah, I'm similar to what Mills said. Just I think it's in, in our circumstances it's kind of the best option. Why not try to, you know, if there's someone that's friendly, like has an ear out to us, why not try to push for the best bitcoin policy we can get?
- [17:52]
Walker
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- [18:06]
Mads
I liter.
- [18:07]
Walker
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- [19:29]
Mads
Your first time setting up a hardware.
- [19:30]
Walker
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- [19:50]
Mads
I, I think it's an interesting thing because, you know, I haven't been in bitcoin that long. I mean, I guess it's starting to feel like a long time, but like, I didn't start like stacking really until like, like partway through 2020, like 20. It wasn't until like Covid really after having ignored it, like I, I, I think I ignored bitcoin for much longer than I've been, you know, paying attention to bitcoin. But like, even in that time, what I've been able to see is like bitcoiners are really good at having something to push against, like something to fight against, something to like just rail against. Something that you feel like you need like a common enemy, you know, and it's very easy when that enemy is like the government, when that enemy is the lawmakers who are, you know, like the, when if everybody's in Elizabeth Warren, like, it's really easy to be like, that's who we are fighting against. These, you know, tyrannical would be commie dictators who want to absolutely strip away any semblance of freedom that you have. When you start seeing politicians like actually come around to this, it gets to be like a little bit of a weird thing because you're like, all right, well they're, they're saying the same things. We're saying, are they on, like, our side now? Are we on the same team? Do we. Do we actually want the same thing? Are they just paying us lip service because they want our votes and our donations? Like, it gets to be a little bit of a muddier area. And I think that's where bitcoiners, myself included, start to get a little bit, like, wary of some of these things. But it's like, it's. In many ways, it's a, like, same with a national strategic reserve. It's a natural consequence of bitcoin succeeding. Right? Like, this is what winning looks like. If bitcoin is successful and was going to be successful, politicians getting on board was always going to happen. Whether or not you like that or not, that's beside the point. It's just like, this is a natural consequence. This is how things were going to go down. And so, you know, it's. I'm in agreement with you, Mads, that it's like, okay, I live in America. I love America. America has afforded me many privileges that the majority of people in the world do not have. For that, I am very grateful. You can love America without being a simp for the government. Right. Those two things, they don't have to go hand in hand. And I think a lot of people kind of miss that. But ultimately, America is an idea. And I think that that's like fighting. Like, bitcoin is a very. Not that bitcoin is American, but the idea of bitcoin is consistent with American values. Right. Like, and I think that's something that's worth fighting for. And I'm. I'm kind of curious. Just, do you. Do you feel that? Just kind of being in the belly of the beast, they're working for a DC think tank. How have you felt the vibe shift to be like, clearly there's a big difference between this administration, the prior one, how much follow through this administration will have in the long run. Let's see. But like, there's been. There is no denying that there's been a massive vibe shift. How do you guys see that? Kind of from the inside. What's your feeling on it? You know, still very positive. Do you think things are still heading in the right direction? How do you see this going down?
- [23:03]
Matt
Go. I'll go in a little bit. But I'll say that I'm not in the office, so I have a ton of FOMO, because the D.C. office, there's just a lot happening every day is what I get from being afar is that there's just like, Something new and wild, kind of crazy, huge happening all the time. They're definitely frustrating setbacks. But the change from November on and the like people coming to BPI reaching out to BPI versus VBI reaching out, you know, to try to make, get discussions going with others was a huge shift. The interest that we started getting I think definitely went along with the administrator. I mean we've been working very hard and had a lot of good support like the last few years. But it definitely changed when the administration change was coming. And so yeah, I agree. I don't know how like long lasting and you know, hardened. Some of the changes will be that or thrown out and talked about. But overall I think it's, it's pretty exciting. It seems like stuff's definitely happening all the time. So I'll throw to Mills for more. What's on the ground?
- [24:24]
Mills
Oh, on the ground. So I relocated to D.C. inauguration weekend actually literally drove into D.C. like an hour before the crypto ball. Like it was, you know, just dive right in, go into the deep end. So a lot of, I mean I would say the biggest thing is there is an openness to discussing that I don't think has ever been the case. Whereas it's almost, and this is the analogy I came up with last week at Thames. It feels like bitcoin kind of used to be the fruit fly or gnat just like buzzing around, but really easy to swat it away and disregard. And all of a sudden it's like we're a mosquito that might have malaria and there's like, oh, we're gonna, there is a little buzzy thing. Okay, all right, what do you want to say? What do you want to talk about? Okay, we'll hear you out. And there is a little bit of fear. There is a little bit of the, like, oh, we gotta catch up, we gotta, we gotta find out what this is about. But I think because of the shift in the leadership, there is a clear distinction that there is something here and it would behoove politicians to at least have some fundamental understanding. And there is that momentum. I think that is the big vibe shift of the curiosity and the openness and a lot of what BPI does, you know, on, on the ground, like there's research, but there's also just a lot of reaching out and building relationships. And it's been surprising how easily, easily won over or won some of the relationships are that it's, it's usually like a 10 minute meeting super fast. These, these elected officials have super jam packed schedules. But usually we've been met with. Yeah. And then the. Sometimes that 10 minutes runs over and it's 45 minutes because they're so interested or because they're so open to. And that, that's a specific time from Begich, Nick Begich, who spoke at Bitcoin for America and will be speaking at our summit in June. But it was, it was really a 10 minute meeting but they were just like having such a blast talking and apparently he's a huge fan of Matt Pines, so.
- [26:56]
Mads
Nice.
- [26:56]
Mills
It was just this like nerding out talking about bitcoin and uap, like you know, best case scenario. But those stories keep accumulating of we're reaching out, we're, we're knocking on doors, we're having meetings and basically there is the willingness that I don't know up until this point has ever existed. So this is kind of the harvest is ripe and ready and there's so much that could be done at this point.
- [27:26]
Mads
I mean it's cool to see that shift. And I can imagine that there's a bit of a scrambling going on by some who have maybe thought I'm just going to ignore bitcoin. I mean the malaria infested mosquito is a hilarious analogy, but for a while, yeah, that is a good analogy. You could just kind of safely ignore it. Um, you know, maybe us bitcoiners would say you really shouldn't but like from a politician's perspective, it's like you guys don't matter, you're inconsequential. It's clear that's no longer the case. It's clear that the, the bitcoin lobby or you know, hate to say the larger crypto lobby, but we know that those big crypto companies throw around a ton of money. People are paying attention. They pay attention to where donations come from. They pay attention to who has a massive online presence of really, really vocal people who are also happen to be great at memeing, which is, you know, quite a powerful alliance to have on your side. So I mean, does this is, is where we're at right now, you think just like kind of a, a mad dash towards education, like our. That's like, that's what I'm hearing. Like there's a realization that okay, I need to get smart about this, can't ignore it anymore. What is actually going on here? Have you been like, you've talked about some of the receptiveness. Do you see, I'm assuming though you still have a lot of meetings that maybe don't go so great or is there still a lot of pushback? Has BPI tried to approach Elizabeth Warren for example, or is she too far gone?
- [29:00]
Mills
I can't speak to that. That's funny.
- [29:04]
Matt
I'll just speak for that. We are open to that discussion. I don't know that it, I'm not aware of it having happened or anything. So that's, that's all I'll say. But yeah, I think we want anyone that will discuss it with us. We don't, we don't want it to be where like we're just talking to one side of the aisle here because there are definite reasons for people on both sides of the aisle to be behind bitcoin and supportive of it. I mean, yeah, to me it's just a no brainer for anyone, but you know, that's, that's coming from someone that has been very deeply obsessed with bitcoin for a while. So I, you know, I don't know. But we, I think there's definitely a mix. There are definitely people wanting that education and then there's like, there are different levels there. There's staffers that are really interested, like someone on a, you know, politician staff is super interested in that kind of gets the ball rolling or you know, sometimes there are people that. My sense is, and this is again just my sense I'm not having these political meetings, to be clear, is that maybe they are wanting to get involved because they can sense the momentum around it. They may not be there to like understand it yet or really they're very. Politicians seem, they're very busy and they have like this such a small, like, like, it's like trying to like stick your hand through a closing door, you know, like that to like get through, to actually have stuff land. They're, they're not saying they're not smart, but they just don't have enough time in the day to take on everyone's issues that are coming to them. So some people maybe aren't as like there are definitely some like baggage that Mills is talking about that are actually, they're like, wow, they get it. You know, we're excited about that. And there are others that get that it's a big deal and I think want to, want to be involved and be associated with it just because they know that there's a movement.
- [31:08]
Mills
And I would say like, if you had to really boil down bpi, you know, the, not the threshold, but like the two main focuses of yes, education, but it's persuading people who are undecided about bitcoin and then legitimizing the pro bitcoin stances with those in power who agree with us. So we're not necessarily focusing our energy and time on the, like, they don't know anything. They're against it. We'll spend some time and we're not against it. But I think most of our time and efforts is focused on these people that are undecided, that are kind of curious or open or have some angle that it would make a lot of sense. And we can kind of say how that would make sense within their platforms or policies or what they're working on in their elected capacity.
- [32:07]
Mads
I mean, it makes sense. You want to target like the highest value targets that are going to require the least amount of convincing to like, realize, hey, this is why you should be paying attention to this. This is why this is not just good for you, but like, this is good for your constituents. This is good for America. Like, that's the wild thing, is that like any American politician that is actually pro America should love bitcoin because, like, if you like freedom, if you like the idea of a small government that is decentralized, that, you know, the federal government is way too fricking big, I think we can all agree with that. I don't know if a lot of politicians would, but it's a fact. Like, our founding fathers would be rolling over and vomiting uncontrollably in their graves if they could see how large our federal government has gotten. But like, bitcoin is ultimately extremely pro America. Like, it's. Because it's pro American people. It gives power to American people. Like, if you're against that, you're just kind of outing yourself as being anti American. That's just what I think. Elizabeth Warren. Um, but anyway, not to, not to spend too much time on, on old Liz. But so with these, with these summits that you guys put together, like, is that. Are you. Is there like an open invite to basically like any, any politician and be like, you can you just have your.
- [33:24]
Walker
Team reach out, you can come.
- [33:25]
Mads
Or do you guys again, target it to those like, higher value or not higher value, like higher potential people? The people that are already closer to being one over to the orange side, both. Okay.
- [33:37]
Mills
Basically. So anyone that's a government employee were like, come to our summit. Anyone. But as far as elected officials, yeah, we, we actually spend a lot of time, we're trying to have it balanced in it, for it to not just be Republicans that are speaking about it. And we had at bfa, we had Ro Khanna and I feel like it's harder to find Democrats that are interested and that want to talk about it, but we're actively trying to kind of keep it open. There isn't the threshold or barrier to entry on that point, but we are actively seeking out. So it's both. We're open to anyone, join the conversation, get educated, understand. And I think the big thing probably is at this juncture, we're still really trying to make sure there's a clear distinction between what bitcoin and crypto and digital assets. And I think having that delineation and saying Bitcoin Policy Institute is Bitcoin first, all of our time and energy, we're all focused on Bitcoin, so that's the language we use. But it's important that we kind of continue that education because we believe bitcoin should be treated uniquely and not just the same as all of the other cryptocurrencies and digital assets.
- [35:06]
Mads
And we did see one of the things that I was very pleased to see in the Trump executive order around the Bitcoin strategic reserve. This is coming after, of course, his couple of posts on Truth Social where I heard there was some weird stuff with an XRP lawyer guy who, like, got in and managed to convince Trump that he should put out this, you know, a tweet on Truth Social that included xrp. And then like, afterwards, he felt like very, I don't know if this was just, this is hearsay, but that, that he felt like, you know, kind of like, you know, fool me once you're fired, basically. And that person is now Persona non grata. I don't know if that's actually the.
- [35:45]
Walker
Case, but this is what I heard.
- [35:47]
Mads
But after that initial, a little debacle, the actual language of the Bitcoin strategic reserve Bill very clearly made a delineation between bitcoin and crypto. Like, and I know that, like, a lot of that language, from what I saw BPI fellows posting is consistent with a lot of the materials that BPI has been producing. Right. Like, can you talk about that a little bit? And maybe just like, what that was kind of like to see that. Because that must have been a pretty nice, like, pretty nice, like, win for you guys to see that kind of, like, stuff like, this is a, this is a huge deal. This is an executive order. Like, this is, you know, a game changer in terms of the stance toward bitcoin.
- [36:31]
Mills
Yeah, it's the one time when you're kind of excited about being plagiarized or having someone like cheat off your work. Yeah. Some of the language from like BPI's white paper was, you know, it just so happened to be also in the executive order, which is, it's pretty significant and it's pretty encouraging that we're making an impact and that we do have, you know, the ears or at least like making inroads to having ears as this. The sbr, the strategic Bitcoin reserve is such a, it was such a focus initially and then now. Not that it's not still a focus and a priority, but, you know, now there's new things, new things that are happening and it's kind of hopeful that we can continue to grow our ability to platform good policy. Like, at the end of the day, the point of BPI is to be able to provide the, the structure with a deeper understanding because we know realistically, politicians aren't going to become experts in bitcoin most likely. And so we want to stand in the gap and be able to say, hey, we're actually trying to do this research so you can copy our work. Because we're thinking about this with a deep understanding of bitcoin and how long term this would play out. And I think that is, we're at the beginning, but I think we have more momentum than ever and it feels, feels really exciting of what is to come.
- [38:10]
Mads
Matt, do you have anything on top of that?
- [38:12]
Matt
I mean, no, other than. Yeah, that was a roller coaster of a week that the Truth Social post and with XRP and then the actual executive order coming out and the bitcoin kind of being singled out. I mean, it was, you know, and we had an event the next week in D.C. that was focused on getting that either, you know, getting the bill or an executive order. At the time when we were starting to plan like the goal was to rally to get like executive order and bill and then it's like we got the executive order right before the event. So it was kind of a crazy, crazy fun, wild time, which is. Feels like how it's been the whole time at bpi. This stuff just. Things just keep happening and I think that's that like you can just do stuff thing, you know, like that's what's going on and it's, it's crazy to see it as just doing stuff and then things happening on like a really high level, like, you know, on a national level or something when we're just kind of a little bit mind blown. We're pretty small group and yeah, it's, it's awesome.
- [39:30]
Mads
It's like you can just do things. You can just start a think tank and influence an executive order written by the president of the most powerful nation in the world. Like, you can just do that. Like, which is wild. And like, maybe just very quickly, for anybody who's. Who hasn't actually read the text of that executive order, I read it for you. So you can just go listen on this show. You're welcome. But also, like, the key thing that was cool to see. And again, this is not me saying, yes, I want the US Government to buy as much bitcoin as they can. Just to clarify, not saying that at all. This is a natural. Again, a natural progression. This was always going to happen if bitcoin was winning when I put that caveat in there. But they basically said, okay, bitcoin and crypto are different. We are going to create strategic stockpiles of each. We will not dispose of any of the bitcoin. We will potentially acquire more. We will not acquire any more of the crypto, but we will potentially dispose of it. So literally, like, two polar opposites in terms of the treatment. That was what I thought was, like, great to see, because then that's just again, one more piece of information that's helping even just the average person see there's a difference between these two. Because, like, obviously there's still like, not. You know, most politicians don't understand bitcoin, most people don't understand bitcoin, and most people still think that bitcoin and crypto are, like, one and the same thing. And, like, Sam Bankman Fried created this bitcoin token thing. And, like, like, the education is still so important. That's why we always need more bitcoin podcasts. But I digress. Can you guys talk a little bit about the. The summit that you have coming up here in what, about a.
- [41:08]
Walker
About a month or so?
- [41:10]
Mads
Yeah, what's. So what's. Yeah, talk about that. What's the.
- [41:14]
Walker
What's the theme of this one? What's the goal?
- [41:18]
Mads
When is it?
- [41:18]
Walker
June 25th.
- [41:20]
Mads
Right? Am I correct on that? Okay, what's happening? Who's going to be there? Can anybody come and check this out? What's the deal, Matt?
- [41:32]
Matt
Well, this is our third one, and we've. We've, like, grown in size. I was part of the second bitcoin policy summit, so we're growing in size again for our third one. And it's. I mean, I think it's gonna be awesome. There's going to be, I think, Mel's. I'll let Mills discuss more on, like, the programming side of it, because she's more involved there. But we would. We want everyone to come. It's gonna be great. And there are more because we have a larger team now. We have a few, like, more extended external events going on, or satellite. I don't know the right word for that, but, yeah, we've got a party the night before, like a cocktail party, welcome party the night before the summit. And then you have an option to get a ticket for our day on the Hill, which is going to be something really unique this year, where we have people on our team that are setting up a whole day where they're lining up appointments with politicians on the Hill, and you go and you get to meet with them and discuss bitcoin. And there's also some training as to how to speak to the congressman. So there you actually, you know, what they need, what they're going to take in in a short meeting, and, like, how to get your points across. So it's going to be really cool. And it's at the Ronald Reagan Building, an International Trade center, which is. Right. Kind of between the White House and the Capitol, like, just off the National Mall. As someone that is not from that area, being able to have gone up to D.C. a few times now for work, it's been really cool. It's kind of like, come. My. What I'd say to people not in D.C. is like, come check it out and do, like, a little historic more while you're there. It's really cool to me to come to D.C. you know, in, like, the last few years and see it. I think I'd been once when I was younger, but really, like, take it in. And, yeah, there's a good energy in D.C. right now. It feels overall positive. I think when I've been up there, like, I've had a really nice time. So, yeah, I think it's gonna be. It's gonna be really cool this year to have, like, an aspect where we get to go and actually talk to lawmakers and push bitcoin.
- [43:58]
Mads
Can you talk at all about, or. I don't know if you're allowed to disclose, but any of the folks that may be coming, like, are we going to see some familiar faces, some new faces? Are there surprise guests? How does this all work?
- [44:14]
Mills
All of the above. We have announced some speakers. I think Mads has the list at the ready. She can rattle off some of those. I told her I'm like, I'm. I'm living a little too much in the programming world. So I Don't know what's public or not. So I'm like, you know, we've got some cool surprises. We've got some really, really fun things. And I think from thematic, maybe the first year was, was, you know, this is important or bitcoin is something relevant that we should talk about. It touches things. I think last year's summit is also the, you know, it's like it's still. We're still, I'm gonna say year three, we're still explaining and emphasizing the importance of bitcoin. Not sadly, but like, I think there's been a ton that's, that's been done and a ton of progress and a ton of growth. But at the end of the day, it's like in traditional lobbying, there's understanding of the issue, like with weed or with abortion or with guns, all of those issues. There's a fundamental understanding of what it is. And the issue that we're coming up against is people don't know what bitcoin is still like, okay, digital money, digital gold, cryptocurrency. But as far as understanding what sets it apart, understanding, there's just so much education. So coming at it, the. There will be a lot of fun new faces that will be really special, but also kind of within the thematic umbrellas of bitcoin, the asset, bitcoin, the network and then the production and you know, generation of bitcoin. Because especially for a lot of the like, relevant policies and regulations that are currently either in the way of, of business growth practically in America, it's a lot in the energy and mining world because a lot of that is like the more highly regulated industry. So making sure there's education and understanding on what. When we're saying mining, what is that? You know, And I think there's still. It's like when you've used the language in the nomenclature for a long time, then you get used to it. But remembering that we have a different vocabulary and we have a different set of understanding that has to get broken down and get explained. And for, you know, a lot of the bigger mining companies have policy people have people that are really working on that education. So it's partnering even with those bitcoin mining companies to be able to clearly address and show use cases and explain why we need regulation or protection or freedom to continue to grow and kind of even play it out a little of if America isn't the leader, like, what does that mean? What kind of, you know, is that what we want and what would that look like if that happened. And I think exploring some of those topics and having some of those discussions, it's. It's going to be really fun. I'm a little biased. I know. I think there's going to be the. The party beforehand. I'm really excited about. I'm planning it. So I. There. There will be. This is the. This is the. Like, Alpha not. Has not been announced, but there will be a live karaoke band that will be playing music for most of the night. And then the very talented people will be tapped on the shoulder by me to be a part of kind of a show like a little Rockamoto adjacent. And then at the end of the night, it will be more of a free for all. And, you know, people have been drinking and they, you know, have at it with live band karaoke.
- [48:23]
Mads
Oh, man. So I can say Carl and I are going to be there, and we're super stoked to come check this out. I know there is a much better chance that you're tapping Carla on the shoulder than tapping me. Please do not tap me, actually. Yeah, but just wanted to put that out there. But no, I mean, on that note, Mills, I know you mentioned previously, it's not like BPI isn't just like the putting out these papers and doing this congressional outreach. Like, there's other elements to kind of.
- [48:54]
Walker
The community outreach, let's say.
- [48:56]
Mads
Can you talk a little bit about that aspect of it? Like, how does that factor into the larger kind of goals of bpi? Why is that even, like, important?
- [49:06]
Mills
Yeah, well, my. My title is Director of Community affairs. So it's funny because our Director of Government affairs, that's like a very DC title. I don't know that Community affairs anyone else in D.C. has, but it's kind of. We're trying to play the game. But also there's a pun in there if, you know, you know, but the building of community was really important. And when is really important to bpi and when they initially reach out to me and talk to me about this role, it's like, hey, there isn't a ton of. Of community. There are some bitcoiners that live in D.C. but there just isn't a vibrant bitcoin community that exists here. And that is that grassroots level is a really important way for education to really be successful, to have that rooting. And, yeah, we're going to keep talking to the elected officials and we're going to keep trying. But also, if there's a community that has a presence physically, it's another solidifying force and very Exciting news. At some point in this year, you know, Pub Key DC will open and we'll have our offices within. So stay tuned on news on that. But that'll be really huge. And right now we're hosting a monthly happy hour. And it's, it's so silly. The people that are there that are like, sometimes they think it's Bank Policy Institute. Like, someone from the FDIC came last week and then was talking to me about, like, what I think the future of banking is and regulations. And I was, I was trying to pawn him off because I'm like, I, I don't know that I am the right person to be answering your questions because I'm trying to, you know, like, put blinders on and be like, okay, so imagine I've worked at the FDIC for 10 years and I do research. So what is my worldview? What do I believe? What part of bitcoin is not going to make me sound like a crazy person? What will he be able to hear? I was, I don't know that I've ever been in a conversation in my life where I started sweating, but I, I started sweating during this. I was like, he just kept asking, like, hard hitting, hard hitting, hard hitting. Anyway, but normally the happy hours are like, oh, there's some CIA people that like bitcoin. Oh, there's some people from. It's. It's really wild because it's like bitcoiners and bitcoiners that have jobs that you're like, how. What? Huh? So it's really surprising. Always a wild. Different selection and smattering. This. This month, actually on May 22, on Bitcoin pizza Day, we're hosting a family friendly. I'm very excited about this. On a family friendly, like, it's a happy hour, but we'll be having pizza in D.C. and it's going to be, it's going to be a really good time. I think it's taken some time to get to know all the people that are already here that have been doing community things, but I think that's starting to grow and having more stability and saying, we're going to keep throwing happy hours. People. Just. If you have a question, if you're curious, if you want to talk about bitcoin, if you want to meet other bitcoiners, just having things happening in D.C. for people to kind of come and meet up with each other.
- [52:33]
Mads
Did you ask the CIA guys if they created bitcoin? I'm just kidding. No, but in all seriousness, I think that idea of like, the, you know, like, the third place is really important, right? Like, that's what pubkey is, right? That's what, like. Like for anyone that's not familiar, like, the third place is, like, it's not work or school, and it's not home. Like, it's. It's another place that you can go. And, like, maybe it's church, maybe it's a bar, maybe it's whatever. But, like, maybe it's, you know, a bitcoin meetup. But it's like having a different type of place where you can go and have conversations that you don't have at any of those other places. And, like, I mean, yeah, I. I'm sure you get some very interesting characters in there. It's interesting too, about just like the, you know, you never know in what roles you may find, like, kind of quiet bitcoiners. Like, you are just like, it's kind of like bitcoiners. Like, not only is bitcoin a Trojan horse, but kind of like bitcoiners as well are like individual Trojan horses. Like, we're kind of everywhere, and you just never know where you're going to find one. And, like, I think that's kind of a cool thing. Like, it's. It's very powerful also because it's like we're just slowly infiltrating, you know, spreading our orange tentacles into everything we can get into in, like, a very not. But, like. But we're not trying to, like, do weird stuff. We're just trying to give you more freedom so, like, you can feel good about it, which is nice.
- [53:51]
Matt
There are definitely, like, surprise bitcoiners out there that wear suits already that. That just were waiting, I think, for something a little bit more in their comfort zone to come to D.C. or to come to bitcoin, if that makes sense. But, yeah, there are definitely people I've met that were already. I like, approach probably the first. First go round of. Of being at an event in D.C. i was thinking that a lot, like, no one knows anything about bitcoin because they're all from the D.C. world. And no offense, that is super terrible of me to even think, but assumptions were made. They weren't in T shirts and hoodies. I didn't know, but then I'd find out, like, oh, you're actually already. You're very knowledgeable in this. This is not new to you at all. They've just kind of been like, in the. In the world, but on the sidelines, like. And I think what Mills is doing is really awesome. It's giving me like so much FOMO of wanting to be in D.C. every month for. And even more than, like, more often than that. I like have a FOMO event every week at least. So they, you know, like, it's. It's great. I think this could be like a really big statement, but I think that what's going to be going on with Bitcoin in D.C. is going to have it be a city that's like on the map for bitcoiners. Not maybe not like Nashville or Austin yet, but it's definitely going to have a draw, I think, for sure.
- [55:26]
Mads
I think that's a good. That's a good thing too, right? Like, we want, like, it'd be good if the nation's capital was also like a bitcoin hub full of lots of toxic psychopaths. Like, that's something that I would want, you know.
- [55:39]
Mills
Yeah. And the more bitcoin cities, the more. The more we just have kind of the community aspect within different cities, the stronger, you know, ultimately our network becomes. And I think there's. It's small here. When I moved to Nashville, I was shocked at how many bitcoiners there were, but there wasn't something. There wasn't a meetup, but there was. There were just lots of people that were going about their lives being bitcoiners. So I think this is a lot of, you know, settling the frontier in Nashville versus dc. The new wild west, the new frontier. It feels a lot more grassroots to educate and to kind of inspire and to kind of get people even interested. And I don't if there are secret bitcoiners like meeting underground. I haven't been invited yet. I would love to be invited. That would be so nice. Let me know. I'm de platformed actually on Twitter, so I can't. I can't answer a dm, but you know, Nostr hasn't kicked me off, so.
- [56:49]
Mads
Did you get. When did you get kicked off, Kicked off Twitter or X? Excuse me?
- [56:54]
Mills
I know. I still call it Twitter. It happened. It was either last week or the week before. I think it was early last week.
- [57:00]
Walker
What did you do?
- [57:01]
Mills
You know, honestly, I. The last thing that I did was I retweeted our head of policy, Zach Shapiro, who's a very like, he'll say these big things, but he's very well spoken and he's been super involved in the samurai case and recently like, well, well worded little rant about basically they. They prosecuted as money transmitting, even though they knew that samurai Wasn't money transmitting. And I, I'm going to be honest, injustice isn't great. Doesn't sit well with me. I have a really tough time with it. And that was what I retweeted. And, like, I don't think I put any flavor. I don't remember. But I, that was my last action. And I have this. I'll show you what, what it, it looks like on my phone. It's really funny. And Matt Pines looked me up the other day. He's like, yeah, you don't exist. This is when I load it. This is what it is. And it's still.
- [58:06]
Mads
What does that say on there? I can't quite. I just.
- [58:09]
Mills
Oops, something went wrong. Please try again later. Oh, an error was encountered. Try again. And I'm just. If you go, like, I can see this is my handle. But I'm just fully. I've tried putting it, I've tried it on, on desktop. Yeah, I'm, I don't know.
- [58:31]
Matt
That's, that's so crazy. I'm pretty sure I retweeted the same thing, but I need to go check now. It didn't get me booted unless I like, retweeted something else adjacent. That wasn't the controversial thing. I don't know. That's really crazy.
- [58:46]
Mads
Wait, what was it that was so controversial? Controversial about like, like, because I, I, I listened to his. He was just on what Bitcoin did with, with Danny. It was like, great episode. Highly recommend people check it out. Always happy to show other people's podcasts because, again, we need more Great episode. And like, I didn't know the whole thing about the FDIC basically told the federal prosecutors, like, oh, no, they're not money transmitters. And then the federal prosecutors were like, okay, wait six months and then literally, like, arrest them. Which is like. But the people who are in, like, the people who are in charge of the rules that you say they're breaking said they weren't breaking the rules. So, like, what the fuck? Like, so did you, I mean, did you like, did you throw like an extra spicy quote tweet on there or, like, what.
- [59:42]
Mills
You know, I can't. In my mind, like, I didn't think I was doing anything that would cost me my freedom of speech. And I thought we were past those days. Regardless. I, I don't, I think it was, it's like, maybe something of if the people in power abuse their power, like, what does that mean for our freedom? Or, you know, something probably, like, slightly philosophical and, like, nothing crazy. You Weren't like murder them.
- [60:14]
Mads
Yeah, right. I mean, well, yeah, who knows? I mean I guess like I'm very glad Nostra exists. Like we're live streaming there right now and nobody can shut that down and nobody can deplatform you off of your end pub, which is a very powerful thing. Like I don't know, it's, you know I, I always worry because it's like I think things are probably as much as. There seems to be like a, a bit of a vibe shift towards like more free speech and more, you know. Yeah, like let's get some more of that freedom back in here. At the end of the day like the bureaucracy is so incredibly entrenched and like the, like the state apparatus, the surveillance state, the military industrial complex, like all of these incredibly powerful entrenched institutions and three letter agencies that like yeah, the administration may change but you're never gonna like root out all of the deep state. Like that's just not going to happen. And so like I think the surveillance state gets a lot worse before it gets any better. Like I don't know.
- [61:24]
Mills
Sadly I, I agree with you and I, I, I mean I'm really anti social media and I think it's funny that I like the two that, that, that I had LinkedIn because it was my only connection to people I went to college with and X I'm de platformed on both of those. So I guess jokes on me like you try to hold on you, you just whatever you get learned you, you learn a lesson. But ultimately I think until people realize that the amount of access and monitoring and data harvesting and information that they are giving away for free, until everyone knows that they are the product they like, it's going to keep getting worse and I actually fear for like more of the social credit or the like it becoming important. Like if you don't have social media then you can't do things because they can't get your like your character. They don't know. And I know that's Black Mirror but I also know that that's real in China. So also there's, there's the reality that I feel like a lot of people think it's convenient, think that social media has no downside, it's all like great, they're really into it and I know I'm on the extreme end that is like a supreme social media disrespector but at the same time I think we're gonna have to learn the hard way because everyone else is just so you don't realize it until I think someone has to go without it for a few days or a week or hours or whatever. Like everyone is so hooked up to the IV that is just inundating and they're living on the drip system of information. And I think that's where a lot of the closed mindedness comes from because they're perpetuating and just completely drunk on whatever they're being told to be listening to or not be listening to. And I think that's the real problem because critical thinking has been gone for so long in the mainstream. And so there's just a closed mindedness but, but then there's a gaslighting. If you told, told anyone they're closed minded, it's like, no, you're being hateful now. Which, it's like, I don't know how to live in this world, guys.
- [63:50]
Mads
Yeah, I don't know. It's like I, I think like many people, I have kind of like a love hate relationship with social media because on the one hand, like social media has allowed me to meet all of these incredible bitcoiners such as yourselves, who I now consider friends. And like that's an incredible thing. Right. On the other hand, it's just an like the way that social media platforms, and I'll separate that from protocols like Noster, but the way that these platforms have been constructed, like they are meant to just trigger dopamine hit after dopamine hit and get you addicted and keep you coming back for more. And like, okay, there's like our generation, which is one thing. Like we're not digital natives. We didn't, like, we remember dial up and DSL and like, you know, we remember things. Yeah, we remember things needing to buffer. Like that's like, yeah, like what I worry about is like the, the Zoomers and the Gen Alpha, like they have grown up with this as like this, all this social media came right along with their mother's milk. Like, it's just, it's a part of their lives from the start and we don't, we have literally no idea what that's going to do to them in like 20 years, like 40 years. Like we don't know what the law, like, we're, they're just, they're guinea pigs. Like we're all guinea pigs to an extent. And like one thing I always find funny is like boomers were always the ones who are like, you know, that the Facebooks are going to rot your brains and stuff. And then like, who are the only people left on Facebook? It's like the boomers, you know, like, so I don't know, there's just a. An aside there, but, like, it's good. I don't know. I don't know what happens in the long term, but it's not going to be great.
- [65:31]
Mills
Well, it's scary, but also I think. And maybe this is too bullish and too optimistic, but I actually think because the zoomers are tech native and did grow up, they have this. They're almost like inherently accepting a bitcoin in a way that millennials and Gen X. Like, we had to learn it, understand it. It's Internet money. It's like we had to learn the Internet and understand what it is. Zoomers don't understand the difference between data and WI fi. A lot of them, I'm not saying all of them, but, like, there's Internet. That's it. And, like, because we grew up where you once got Internet on a CD that came in the mail that you put into a CD drive, like, all these archaic things, I think bitcoin, actually, the timing of it all is. Is fantastic that all these zoomers, I think they're less obsessed with the nuance and cool whatever of bitcoin. They just see it as money because money for them has always been on their phone money. Money isn't tactile. Money isn't physical for them. And so I actually think it's. There's a hopeful edge to it. What does it mean? Social media wise and like, mental health wise? I don't know how that works out, but actually I think it's great for bitcoin if they're around. I guess.
- [66:58]
Mads
It'S fair. Go ahead, Maz.
- [67:00]
Matt
That's very optimistic and I hope that that is our reality. I hate Black Mirror because it is so I can see the future. It's like just looking into the future. I think that when it first came out, a lot of people just think, oh, this is kind of crazy. Whatever. I don't think they, like, understood the gravity of how close we are. Like, that's not like 30 years away. A lot of the stuff that we've seen on there. So I don't watch it. I can't. I get so upset. My husband watches it because I don't even want to, like, think about that. I will just go outside and. Yeah. And be happy. Touch grass and. And just try to, like, live, though, as long as I can in the world before we get taken over by, you know, social credit control or whatever it might be. But I do, I agree. I do like that we were able to, you know, become friends through. Otherwise, I don't know that I would have crossed paths with y' all. Like if I not had or any bitcoin. It would have taken a while for me to reach other bitcoiners where I live. If I had not had clubhouse and had communications with other bitcoiners for the first time. It's like reaching out to other aliens. They exist. I heard words. Yeah, they're out there too. And then from there getting involved in going to conferences and meeting friends and volunteering for things and helping with stuff like that would not have happened without social media. But I kind of. I. I think I'm also a little bit just in anti it. I don't spend a lot of time on it. And I'm fortunate that I've made good community of bitcoin friends that there's something that's breaking news. And I work for a bitcoin company. So if there's some breaking news in bitcoin, it filters through to me like from. I don't have to be fully immersed in social media to follow it. Because when I was before I actually met other bitcoiners, I was in that world where like I had to be following on Twitter for an update. You know, like, what's the crazy bitcoin thing that's happening right now? Or what's the latest argument amongst bitcoiners that's going on? I. I don't have to search for that as much. I don't really need social media like I used to to which is nice. But I am in agreement that it is. It's not great and it. I hope that Mills is optimistic future of what was going to happen will work out.
- [69:34]
Mills
Is it through social media that you and I met, Mads? Because it was. I know the first time we met was early Nashville bitcoin meetup, but is that how you found out about the meetup?
- [69:45]
Matt
I think that social media may have been how I found out about the media meetup or any like I think social media was the only way I knew that bitcoiners beyond like in my household were that there were like a lot of them out there and doing events and stuff. I my day to day would not cross like outside of family members did not cross anyone else that was talking about bitcoin even still. It's still very foreign. But I'd gone to tab comp was my first event that I went to in person back in guess that was maybe 2021. So if you're if that tracks with, like, early Nashville days, because I think Nashville was not long after that. Some people I'd.
- [70:31]
Mills
Yeah, August of 21.
- [70:33]
Matt
Yeah, it was a. It was a lightning meetup and I was running my lightning node. So all thanks to having met other bitcoiners. That said, anyone can run a lightning node. So, yeah, I think we met in physical person before I knew you online, but I would not have been there if I had not known through social media that that was going on.
- [70:59]
Mads
This is the thing too, is like social media itself.
- [71:02]
Walker
It's a tool, right?
- [71:03]
Mads
It's not inherently bad. You see that it can be good. Like, it can absolutely produce positive outcomes. I think on Noster, you see a lot more of those positive outcomes produced.
- [71:12]
Walker
Because the incentive model is different.
- [71:14]
Mads
It's like bitcoin. Like, bitcoin is a tool. It can be used to. To finance dissident journalists and freedom fighters, or it can be used to finance, you know, North Korea's military program. Or like, it doesn't. Like, it doesn't matter. It's a tool, right? And so, like, the problem is ultimately, like, what are the incentives of the platform? What are those driving us towards? Because, like, if you're using something mindfully and very, like, consciously and you're aware of what it may do to you, you can avoid a lot of those negative effects. Like in, you know, if you like, I. I turn off, like. Like, I don't have any push notifications turned on for X and I have not had them turned on for, like, years just because I don't. I don't want to be bombarded with that. I don't like push notifications. Like, if I open it up and see something, then I see it like. But like, you can do things that allow you to get the most out of a really great tool because it is a tool for social networking, for cohesion, for planning, for organizing. It's really powerful. It can be really shitty too, if you're just sitting there mindlessly scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, like, face closer and closer to the phone, you know, brain further and further away from any sort of reality. Like, that's when it gets bad. But like anything, if you use a tool mindfully, you're going to get something hopefully good out of that tool. I think the problem is that most people don't use things mindfully at all. But that's a different story. I don't know if that can be fixed. Bitcoin fixes a lot of things. It does not necessarily fix most people.
- [72:49]
Walker
Sadly.
- [72:50]
Matt
No. Yeah, I Think that that's why now I know stir. I say. I say no stir.
- [72:57]
Mads
I know I'm in the minority here.
- [72:59]
Matt
I know, I know I really draw it out. But I think the majority of people say no stir. But why that was, is and was and is so refreshing is that, yes, all social media is a tool, but the, like, it's like getting, you know, you have a hammer or you can get like this fancy contraption that does the same thing as a hammer, but it. It's like just a lot of extra and like, that's like bringing it back to the basics is what's refreshing. Because even just trying to use Twitter as a basic tool to go on and like, check in with friends or find a meetup or an event, it's programmed, like, to addict you. Like, even if you get on for a few seconds, it's pro. All of a sudden you're like 30 minutes later like, oh, my gosh. I was. I didn't even find what I was looking for because before I got there, I was. Something was like, pushed in front of my face that it knows I wanted to dive down a rabbit hole about or something. And I think that there are good things to that because it helps sometimes you might want to find those types of things that are kind of brought to the top of your feed, but it's also. Yeah, it's. It's got a lot of extra stuff and that a lot of the extra stuff can be really bad and really addictive and. And like, either, yeah, just circle you down and who knows which direction for the day? But Nostro is like, oh, this is back to like, just being able to connect with others, you know, without the algorithm. Like, it's great. I can. And which is why I. I'm not like, I haven't forgotten about Noster. I just don't use social media a lot, so. And it's very easy to disconnect from. I don't have anything like, pinging me back on there and my life goes on, I can like, not be on there and I can go out, go on a hike, and I'm not thinking about it while I'm on a hike. So, yeah, it's. It's refreshing to have something that's like back to the beginning of why we use social media as a tool when there's the other stuff is just like, super al. Algorithmized to like, ruin your life maybe. I don't know.
- [75:14]
Mads
No, it's. Well, it's like having the ability to, like, to choose. Right. It's Optionality, like, because there are now options for different sorts of, you know, you know, algorithms. Because an algorithm is just a set of steps, right? Like that's not inherently bad either. That's just a tool. But it's like you have the ability.
- [75:31]
Walker
To choose at least.
- [75:32]
Mads
Whereas on X, on I, I honestly haven't been on Facebook in so many years. I don't even know what their algorithm does these days. Like, I think, I don't know how many it's been like since pre covet, I think that I've used Facebook. Like it's been a while. It's just all boomers, I hear now, all boomers who cannot distinguish AI from reality. Also that's a whole different thing. Like, I think boomer boomers are really ill equipped to figure out what is AI and what is like real real. It'll be like Jesus riding a rainbow donkey. And they'll be like, can you believe that? Where was this photo taken? You're like, oh my God. But yeah, like anything, it's, it's a tool. And if you have the option to choose which tool to use, that's going to benefit you. And that doesn't just get you hooked into habit forming behavior. So that you can, Mads, just say, I'm just going to put this down and go take a hike and touch some grass. Like, man, that's like, that's great. Like that, that, that's ideal. You don't want to feel that you're somehow like missing something. Like you're missing stuff out there. Like you're missing all. You know, you miss 100 of the grass you never touched, I think is what Wayne Gretzky said. Right.
- [76:35]
Matt
I love that that quote needs to be up on my wall. I'll, I'll attribute it to you instead of Wayne Gretzky since, you know, we'll give that one to you.
- [76:49]
Mads
Yeah, the Michael Scott thing, you know, like, like Michael Scott.
- [76:51]
Matt
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure he also said it just like that. But for sure, I'm going to attribute the quote on the wall to you for sure. I think that's a great one.
- [77:03]
Mads
But okay. I'm glad we got a chance to talk about the social media side of things too, because so much of the political discourse, this is me trying to bring the weave back full circle. So much of the political discourse now happens on social media. Like so much of the posturing, like, you know, it's no Longer A, A1 to many information distribution system like you had with cable, you know, like cable news back in the day. Like, you don't just, you know, the single anchor on the nightly news is not the sole source of truth anymore. That's a really good thing. And it's a. You know, it's a decentralizing force, essentially. And I think it's very fascinating how, like, I mean, just like, the. The fact that politicians realize now that, like, it's harder to your way around things. Like, you can still do a lot of bullshitting on social media. But where I think that things got really interesting this election cycle was with Trump doing this podcast circuit where it's like, can you riff for, like, two hours unscripted? Like, because it turns out a lot of politicians can't. And it becomes very clear that they can't after, like, 10 minutes into an interview where it's like, oh, they've actually, like, never had a real conversation before. Like, it's always been, you know, like, off notes. Like, I don't know. I didn't really have anywhere I was going with that. Just more so marveling at the fact that, like, the vibe shift in the landscape is so real, that podcasts, like. Like, the Fear Factor guy was, like, a deciding force in. In, like, people's perception of the current sitting President of the United States. Like, that's wild. And, like, I loved Fear Factors. So, like, you know, go, Joe Rogan.
- [78:44]
Mills
Wait. So I loved. Wait. I'm so sorry, guys. I'm. Joe Rogan was the Fear Factor guy.
- [78:55]
Walker
Yeah.
- [78:56]
Matt
I didn't know this either.
- [78:57]
Mads
What?
- [78:59]
Matt
I'm sorry.
- [78:59]
Mills
I don't feel like he was on my timeline.
- [79:02]
Mads
Okay. Is this, like, a weird man?
- [79:04]
Matt
Okay, you guys, I'm arguing it. I actually don't know much about his.
- [79:09]
Mills
Background, so I loved Fear Factor. I remember the sheep eyeballs. Like, I. I watched Fear Factor. Fear, but I did not know that Joe Rogan had anything to do with Fear Factor.
- [79:25]
Mads
Joe Rogan was Fear Factor.
- [79:29]
Mills
Wait, with the hair? That. That's Joe Rogan? Yeah. You didn't know this either, right?
- [79:38]
Matt
No, I didn't, but I didn't follow Fear Factor as much as too scary.
- [79:43]
Mads
Like, this. Like, this is part of Joe Rogan's, like, incredible, you know, trajectory here. Like, I'm kind of mind blown that neither of you guys knew this. I'm not gonna lie.
- [79:54]
Mills
Well, I grew up very non. Um, honestly, it was amazing that I was allowed to watch Fear Factor, period. But I think it was, like, no sex nudity, so, like, you know, got away with it. I have to, like, reformat my hard drive now knowing that Joe Rogan was Fear Factor Guy. So I'll. By the time you see me in June, June 25th, 24th, for the party at the summit, all have digested this.
- [80:25]
Matt
Joel have rewatched it all.
- [80:29]
Mads
I mean, Joe Rogan was basically the original eats the bugs guy, but he's like, I'll pay you at the end after you eat these bugs.
- [80:35]
Mills
I just.
- [80:38]
Mads
You're gonna go back and rewatch this now with a whole new lens. That's kind of beautiful. I wish I could be having this realization now.
- [80:48]
Mills
This is mind blowing. I. I didn't. I mean, I expected to have a great time on this podcast. I didn't expect to, like, have one of my constructs burst and shatter and broken. But also, this is going to be funny. A lot of people will call me Mads. I know Mads gets called Mills as well now. I mean, we're not in the same room, but we're kind of. It's proof that we are not the same person.
- [81:10]
Mads
There you go.
- [81:11]
Mills
And now that we work at BPI in the office, sometimes they call me Mads too, and they work with me.
- [81:18]
Matt
And I know I'm not ever in the office.
- [81:21]
Mills
She's not in the office. So this is gonna. Maybe this is gonna like, be a mind blowing. Like they thought we were the same person the whole time. There are people that will literally have a whole conversation with me that I know think I'm mad, and sometimes I let it happen. And I'm sorry if. If anyone out there is watching this, I don't know.
- [81:40]
Mads
But you both did have the same. Neither of you knew that Joe Rogan was Fear Factor Guy, so kind of throwing a wrench into your gears. A little too similar, if you ask me.
- [81:51]
Matt
Crazy. No, I also. That did not watch Fear Factor. I knew of Fear Factor. I didn't watch a ton of TV growing up either. And, like, definitely did not watch Fear Factor because I'm afraid of bugs. And that alone is like, I don't want to sit through watching someone else's fear of bugs. Not. Not for me, but the. You know, so I. I am just. I'm more mind blown that Mills was watch a watcher, a viewer of this and is this mind blown?
- [82:23]
Mills
But I like the. I was an adrenaline. I would say I'm a recovering adrenaline junkie that, like, I used to skateboard bmx. Like, I feel like, I guess daredevil. But I love the adrenaline rush and the, like the Fear factor. I always thought I could crush it. Honestly, I've like, definitely think I would have Nailed it. Absolutely. Because I'm not really afraid of heights. I don't really mind bugs. Like, I don't like them, and I'm not, like, excited about eating a scorpion or whatever, but, like, I just knew I could do it.
- [82:54]
Mads
Be a little weird if you were. If you're like, God, I can't stop eating these scorpions, man. Delicious. Little bit of Sriracha on there. Oh, it's good.
- [83:01]
Mills
I mean, I have a scorpion in this bottle of mezcal that I bought in Mexico, and I fully intend on, like, trying it. Cause, like, that's kind of funny. Sorry.
- [83:10]
Mads
Just a little. Just a little nibble.
- [83:12]
Matt
No. Yeah. I got the opposite of. I'm, like, afraid of heights, afraid of bugs, afraid of eating weird stuff. A lot of things. And then also on top of all that, like, my. I was so afraid of, like, things. Like, I was afraid of getting hit by the ball in base in softball and soccer. So, like, I went with running, you know, like, safest. Like, just can run in a straight line and ideally not have to worry about the. The fear of getting, like. Like, hurt by something. So definitely not a fear factor person. If. If. And Mills and I. Yeah, clearly, where we're different, we finally have.
- [83:50]
Mads
We have a divergent path.
- [83:51]
Mills
Yeah. So if you're not sure if you're talking to Mills or Mads, be like, how do you feel about heights or scary thing? And if it's pro, then it's me, and if it's anti, it's Mads, just.
- [84:04]
Mads
Hold up a scorpion. Be like, thoughts still there.
- [84:09]
Matt
Then it's Mills. But they're not. It was me.
- [84:13]
Mills
I'm.
- [84:13]
Matt
And I'm long gone.
- [84:15]
Mills
Yeah. But hopefully we do. I mean, I know we probably have to wrap up, but also, you know, everyone that is at all interested, the summit is a really cool, cool place to hear about what the current issues are and the discussions that are having. I think this is going to be a very historic installment of the Policy Summit in general. And I think, like, if anyone is interested, it is going to be very different than a bitcoin conference, where it's pretty much the same thing spoken by the same people every time, which I've been to, like, over 20. And at this point, I'm. I'm exhausted. I don't like sitting and listening. But, yeah, we've got Senator Lumus, Hester Pierce, Nick Begich, Marsha Blackburn, Jim Justice, Warren Davidson. Like, we have such an incredible range and variety of issues that are really currently important and relevant, and I think this is going to be a pretty historical. If I do say so myself. I think this is going to be a pretty historical one.
- [85:23]
Mads
I'm stoked for it because I haven't been to this kind of a bitcoin event before. So it's going to be an interesting change, but I'm excited to check it out. And for anybody who's just in the audio, you can go to bdcpolicy.org or btcpolicysummit.org if you want more information. And I think any, like, anybody can. Can apply to get tickets. I think there is, like, you guys do review applications or something like that. Okay.
- [85:54]
Mills
Yeah. Anyone can request a ticket. Actually, Mads and I both have our, like, discount code. I think it's just Mills 21 and Mads 21. And that that would flag that you, like, watched this show. Unless Mads, you've been like, I just called you Mills. Almost called you Mills.
- [86:12]
Mads
See you do it yourself.
- [86:13]
Mills
Wow. Unless you've been using that code. I haven't been shilling that code personally.
- [86:20]
Matt
I didn't shill it. So, yeah, favorite. Just kidding.
- [86:24]
Mills
Yeah. It's a competition now.
- [86:27]
Matt
No, no, no. Again, don't like competitions over here.
- [86:31]
Mills
So that's another difference. I have four brothers. I just grew up with competition. Here it is.
- [86:36]
Matt
Nobody have four brothers, but.
- [86:39]
Mads
My God.
- [86:40]
Mills
That's not helpful. That one's not helpful.
- [86:43]
Matt
Yeah, I know.
- [86:43]
Mads
It's.
- [86:44]
Matt
It is. That is one of our weird.
- [86:46]
Mads
This is getting ridiculous over here. I know. I feel like you guys are doing a bit like. I feel like.
- [86:50]
Mills
No, we're not.
- [86:51]
Mads
Okay.
- [86:52]
Mills
I promise.
- [86:53]
Matt
All right.
- [86:54]
Mills
Yeah. But use either of our codes for 21 off of your ticket price, and then if you use that code, we'll know that you are watching this. So, yeah, the applications get reviewed typically every day, and there's a few different. You can get just the summit day, and that includes admission to the pre party on the 24th, or you can do the day on the Hill that Mads was talking about where you can go talk to congressmen, legislation. You can, like be able to, like explain and discuss bitcoiner, like policy, but also just explaining bitcoin to elected officials, which it's a pretty cool way, I think, if you're a nerd like me, it's really cool.
- [87:37]
Mads
So I can go in there and go to my Illinois senators and Congress persons and just drop some bitcoin knowledge.
- [87:49]
Mills
Yeah, they set up appointments with. So, yeah, just put in your request of Illinois people. We're working with an org that will set up all those appointments so that they'll be expecting us and it's like 10 minutes. She'll drop some knowledge. Peace out.
- [88:05]
Mads
Can I go in there and just talk to them about my podcast? Be like, here's why you should. No, I'm kidding. No, I. I will be on my best behavior. I won't say titcoin at all.
- [88:15]
Walker
I promise.
- [88:16]
Mads
It'll be very, very respectable. But yeah, no, I'm. I'm so. So they can use either Mads or Mills for the codes. That's sweet.
- [88:26]
Matt
Mads 21 or Mills 21.
- [88:29]
Mads
Mads 21. Mills 20. I'll. I'll throw them in the show notes too.
- [88:32]
Matt
Stop the, like, make it competition free. They can just use either and put a note that they saw us on your podcast when they checked out. That way we'll know we can just. Yeah, we'll. We'll just pull share. Yeah.
- [88:47]
Mads
Yeah, I like it. It's not a competition. It's a. It's a cooperation.
- [88:53]
Matt
Yes, it's. It's. We're the same person. I'm just kidding.
- [88:57]
Mads
There we go. Oh, God.
- [89:01]
Matt
Back to the same person. You know, either way, this has gone too far.
- [89:04]
Mads
This has gone too far. The simulation is. Is breaking. Well, hey, I want to thank you both for coming on here. I'm super stoked about this. I'm going to be talking to a few other of the BPI fellows such as yourself, and I don't mean fellows as not fellas, but fellows, just to clarify and just super stoked about everything you guys are doing because, again, like, I know both of you and kind of where you're both at and that neither of you are, you know, statist shills. And it makes me very happy that a bunch of radical bitcoiners are actively working in the belly of the beast to try and make sure that our government doesn't do things that are really, really stupid with regard to bitcoin and people's ability to use it in a way that is respected by the law. Because, like, yeah, nobody needs permission to use bitcoin. But also like the government making it a pain in the ass to do any normal transactions with bitcoin. Like, nobody wants that. Let's stay as far away from that as we can and so appreciate the work y' all are doing. Anywhere else you want to send people. BTCpolicy.org, bccpolicysummit.org I'll link both of your nosters since mill you do not have an X anymore. Anywhere else you should send People.
- [90:20]
Matt
Send everyone to D.C. okay.
- [90:22]
Mads
There you go.
- [90:24]
Mills
Yeah. Come to Pizza day on the 22nd. If you're seeing this and you're in D.C. pizza Day.
- [90:31]
Mads
Love it. I wish I could come. I myself enjoy pizza. What kind of pizza is it, though? Are we talking, like, thin crust?
- [90:38]
Mills
It's Gordon Ramsay's street pizza. It's across from, like, where our new office will be. And we will have a satoshi special of pepperoni, pineapple, and jalapeno. But the main will be like, margarita. And it's good. It's like wood fired.
- [90:56]
Mads
If there's any Italians listening to this, they're gonna be super pissed about the. The pineapple.
- [91:01]
Mills
But no, I. We actually have an Italian in our bitcoiner, like, community group in D.C. and he's threatened to not come to the pizza Day. And I said it's. You don't have to eat it. I'm sorry that this is offensive. We've had multiple exchanges about it. I think he's going to still attend. He does love the community, but we got. We do have some. Some drama, some crisis about it, but it'll be. It'll be a good, family friendly Pizza Day celebration.
- [91:31]
Mads
I love it. Well, Mads Mills. Mills, Mads Mil. Mads, thank you both so much for joining. Appreciate it, and looking forward to seeing you both in dc.
- [91:43]
Mills
Yes. Thank you so much for having us.
- [91:45]
Mads
Anytime. All right.
- [91:55]
Walker
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the the Bitcoin Podcast. Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening, and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the Internet. Find me on no@primal.net Walker and this podcast at primal.netcoin on X, YouTube and Rumble. Just search Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram at tcoin Podcast. Head to the Show Notes to grab sponsor links. Head to substack.comwalkeramerica to get episodes emailed to you. And head to bitcoin podcast.net for everything else. Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.