A (4:11)

Yeah, I'm of two minds on this one. So I do see it, it is real. And my instinct is to just not pay attention really to any of them and be cynical about the headlines and does it affect my day to day life? And the answer is no. So I try to distance myself, try not to react specifically around are we going to try to run back COVID lockdowns or whatever, which it seems like that energy is bubbling up again. I would like to believe that we learned our lesson and we wouldn't follow that path again. However, I don't want to get caught being wrong again because if we go back to 2020, I, like many bitcoiners, panicked early. It was end of 2019, early 2020. The videos from China were crazy. No one's talking about it. So I panicked. I prepared a little bit. I also Flew my family and everyone I loved to Costa Rica in February of 2020 and got married and almost canceled the wedding because I was scared of this. And I brought it up to my wife and she's like, what are you talking about? And so totally blissfully unaware. Long story short, wedding went fine. We got everyone home from Costa Rica, and about seven days after we got home, the NBA shut down and the whole world locks down. And in that moment, you know, it probably was May or June or something like that before the, the fear spell wore off on me and I started looking around, being like, there's no way we're gonna go through with all this crazy stuff, right? And I go to the co op and buy some food with a bare chin like a psychopath, and people will look at me like I'm actually like a psychopath. And. And so I. I sort of underestimated how my fellow Americans responded, how they bent over and grabbed their ankles for big daddy government. And I don't know, I guess I thought more people thought independently and that they wouldn't just blindfoldly do something against their own interests. And I was totally wrong. And so when we look ahead, that's in the back of my mind thinking, I would like to believe we don't do that again. And I have to imagine it'd be much harder to convince people to follow in line here. But at the same time, we are herd animals. And if I've learned anything, it's that the cost of going against the social consensus is high and people will voluntarily give up their. Their values in order to maintain consensus with the herd. And so I'm kind of split on the issue. I think if they try to pull it off now, it's a little too close where I don't think they'll get. Get it through the door. But, you know, there's a lot to lose. And the powers that be, you know, they see a Trump administration, they see the rise of Bitco, Bitcoin, they see Elon Musk, who's I would probably consider a neutral character over the long arc, but generally helping us out right now, and it seems like the conversation has opened up, the vibes have indeed shifted. And so I want to believe you sum all that up and there's no chance it could happen again. But we'll see.

B (7:11)

It's interesting because I would agree that it's going to be a lot, or, excuse me, a lot harder to, let's say, kind of dupe people into submission. Again, with regard to, let's say, the Viral pandemic side of things. That said, I think that people are not, as to borrow a phrase from immunology, inoculated against propaganda as they believe. And they may be somewhat. You know, it's like the. It's like the COVID boosters, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, like they, you know, they're safe and effective and they work. And it's like people think they've been kind of like, boring boosted against propaganda. Right. But it just. That doesn't mean another type of propaganda is not just gonna sneak in there again, a different, you know, a different red herring that's gonna be thrown up, a different sort of, you know, distraction that's, you know, look over here, not over here, and they may still just find themselves, you know, kind of sleepwalking right into that. I hope not. I hope people are. I think it's a fact that trust in institutions, trust in media has deteriorated probably to the point of no return, certainly in the media, probably to a lesser extent in a lot of institutions. But that's also a factor of who happens to be in power at the time. Like, Republicans are going to be more trusting of institutionals like the federal government right now because Trump's coming into power. Right. Democrats were more trusting when Biden was in office, but they'll be less trusting of the federal government now that Trump is. So, like, you have some. Yeah, there's some, like, balance there at least. But I don't know. I don't know what, I don't know what happens from here. It's going to be interesting. I feel like these next couple weeks alone, just like leading up to this inauguration, it feels like they're going to try to throw as many things out there as possible, so as much kind of chaos and doubt as possible and just sort of see what happens. But that said, I'm very hopeful about the. I'm bullish long term on the future. I'm. I'm not so sure. Short term, things could get pretty interesting. But, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you kind of specifically is because you've done a lot of work, both, I mean, on bitcoin, obviously, but then kind of bringing bitcoin into the context of these ideas of the fourth turning and these different kind of societal cycles that we go through. And I mean, maybe a good place to start out for folks who don't know you is just kind of like a little bit of a background of how you started even looking into this idea of, you know, okay, yeah, we've got this, you know, the Fourth Turning. This, you know, the book that was written back in the 90s. Yeah. A lot of people know of it, have read it, have referenced it, but then taking that and applying a bitcoin lens to it and kind of like why that, why you decided to do that, like what snapped for you where you're like, ah, okay, this, this makes sense here in this context.

A (9:59)

Yeah, absolutely. So like all bitcoin, think boys, every content I consume, I plow through the orange filter and then I just make sure bitcoin fits in and fits all the analogies in whatever format I need to in order to score ThinkBoy points on the Internet. No, but seriously, this came into my life at a pretty, pretty pivotal point. It was mid-2020 during COVID We kind of touched on this a second ago. The world's going crazy. Why are people telling on each other? I can't possibly believe this. And I was cooped up inside trying to make sense of the world. And for better or for worse, I must feel like I have some sort of understanding of the world and it's mostly an illusion. But it makes me feel good at least to know that at least I have a framework that makes sense of the world around me, whether I'm right or wrong or if it's even possible to fully understand the system. We'll say that. And so read the Fourth Turning, read a bunch of other books. And I thought the Fourth Turning thesis made the most sense and it put me at ease in a sense that what we're going through is not unique. This isn't a one time experience where the world's ending. It's more like a predictable social cycle that will have an end. And it's not going to be like this forever. We're not going to the gulags forever. So put that out of our mind and then we can go forward and say, okay, if we're in a fourth turning cycle, which we'll get to, how do I navigate that? And if I have those tools in my lap, is this all of a sudden not as scary of a situation? And I found that to be true. But let me give you a 30 second background prior. Bitcoin class, 2017 of course bumped into it prior, but it didn't make sense. So I dismissed IT like most 2017, traded all the shitcoins, made a bunch of money, thought I was a genius. 2018 came, lost a bunch of money, realized I was in fact not a genius. And then I spent about six months deep into the Research like most, most people do, a total obsession beyond obsession, 15 to 20 hours a day for months on end. And during that period I taught myself economics from the ground up. I had to unlearn all the Keynesian economics I was filled with in college, throw that away, and also justify my, at the time, poor financial decision jumping into something I didn't actually understand. So mix all that up and I found that I very much resonate with the underlying value system embedded or imbued into the bitcoin thing being, hey, let's create a parallel monetary system that can't be captured. Let's bring some symmetry between individuals in the state through the monetary system because it's a large source of power and add all that up and I'm like, okay, cool, I'm going to shift all my energy here, both financially and my work energy as well. I had a previous career in enterprise software, then I did startups for about five years while working remotely and traveling around the world. So stereotypically read four hour work week, went through yoga teacher training, smoked dmt, bought a one way ticket to India, sold everything I own, and then for the next five years worked remotely all over the world, built some nice businesses that, you know, kept us traveling forever, nothing too crazy. Learned a lot about digital marketing and just generally building a business and then found bitcoin, sold those businesses off and spent about two years, 2018 and 2019. I would say career transition mode. I was writing, I was researching. I had a consulting firm for a while selling really expensive white papers to businesses that were essentially like, hey, no, you should not use a blockchain for that. Like a healthcare consortium would say, hey, what if we put a blockchain on it? And here's 80 pages for $80,000 that says no, you should not put a blockchain on it. And so instead of them paying $8 million for a pilot program to blow 800 million on a project, they could pay me 80 grand to just not do any of that. So I thought it was a good.

B (14:04)

Service, it's a nice business, honestly, it.

A (14:06)

Was a good business for everyone. And then found Corey at a bitcoin conference in San Francisco, which was a legendary conference. The first beefsteak I went to too, on CK's roof. Shout out CK. And yeah, Corey and I had a good chat about his upcoming venture, which ended up being Swan. So I joined Swann a little over five years ago, December 2019. And yeah, had a good run there, Very proud of what we built. And the future's bright with Swan, we're gonna have some big, big things coming in 2025. I said it was gonna be 30 seconds and it was more like three minutes. So background out of the way. If you heard that before, I'm sorry. Okay, let's talk about Fourth Turning. Found it in 2020. Do you want me to give a high level overview, a little bit of the thesis? I kind of already put it in context for me.

B (14:54)

I think, yeah, the thesis would be helpful for folks because I think a lot of people have like heard about this as just kind of maybe a nebulous idea and haven't actually dug into kind of what, like what this actually means. So I think an overview is super helpful.

A (15:07)

Awesome. Okay, so written in the 90s by two historians and demographers. Think like DC nerds who love history. They're just doing history research and writing books about history, American history. And they found a pattern which they later called the generational theory or generational cycle theory, popularized as the fourth turning. So to be clear, they didn't come up with a theory. They discovered it and then they, you know, found more details to support it. And same year as the sovereign individual came out. And I think stepping back now, it's. It's a theory of the world, It's a way to view the world. It's not, it doesn't map one to one. And it's an emergent bottom up thesis that says, huh, it seems like humans in civilization operate in this pattern. And if that's true, how can we use that to see the world? It pairs very nicely with a top down approach. Think a long term debt cycle popularized by Dalio. If you kind of mishmash those two together, I think you have a pretty good picture of the world. And the theory is, is based on the fact that generational cohorts are predictable and they follow a pattern. So we're millennials. We're born in a certain period of time. We were all forged by the environment on which we grew up. So things that would shape us is what's our childhood like? Primarily in the 90s. Okay. We're over parented. Were all snowflakes. 13th place ribbon dare program. Then we have 2001. Okay. We didn't really get to experience that as an adult. We have 911 stock market collapse, the worst in the Middle East. Then we have the global financial crisis, coming of age, entering the workforce, period. And then we have Covid. Right. So you add all that up. That's kind of how our group was forged. That's how we grew up. And when we leave the house and we, you know, leave our parents and we go out in the world, we start to bond together and that cements our identity as a cohort, as a generation. And then we become young adults and we progress through life and we have predictable responses to our environment because we are all, all forged the same way. And the generation after us has a different context in which they're born and they're raised differently. And so we can predict how they will impact the world as they get older. And the author found four different stages of life. So childhood, young adult, mid adult, elderhood. Each one has very defined roles in society which are obvious. It also follows a spring, summer, winter, fall pattern. And so that's what they discovered. And then they also found out that roughly 80 to 90 years is the full cycle. So there's four generational archetypes that repeat and repeat and Repeat. So think 80 to 90 years, which is roughly one human lifetime. That's important. And at the end of this cycle, we have this catastrophe, this crisis. And over the last like four or 500 years, it's always been a war. And every fourth turning has had a war. Every, every war has been in a fourth turning. Every total war. So they're highly correlated. Doesn't mean there has to be a war every, every 80, 90 years. But it means that we need conditions sufficient enough to mobilize the people in order to make dramatic changes. We. You probably know this in your personal life. It's hard to make a change. We wait till the last minute, you got to touch the stove before you realize, right? And as a society, we're the same way. So until the pain is upon us, we don't act. And so right now we're in the middle of a fourth turning period. We should expect more volatility. If you see the world through this lens, the cancel culture makes sense. The political division makes sense. The war drum beating makes sense. COVID lockdowns make sense. All this stuff makes sense. And so that's the end of the cycle is a wartime period. We reimagine the institutions you think politics, education, the geopolitical alignment, monetary systems, all that stuff changes. And it's almost as if over the last 80, 90 years, entropy has just decayed our systems. We created them in the 40s. Ish. And it suited the world at the time society changed. We corrupted those institutions. They're not what they once were. We look around and we say, oh, our institutions don't serve us. Collectively, we have this feeling of okay, it's time to fix our institutions. And it's so bad that we as a species are willing to make massive sacrifice in order to make a change. That's an important part. We're willing to do crazy stuff because the stakes are so high. Okay, Midway through the cycle is a religious movement. Also over the last 400 years, every 80 years, right at the midpoint of the cycle, we have have one of these. This would be the civil rights area era. This would be the, the Protestant Reformation. This would be the, the Quakers. And I think there's one more. I don't know my history that well back then. And so, yeah, that's interesting. That's our inner world. Okay. That's also a response to the kids that grew up prior. So let me give you the. The full cycle in as short as possible to give you an idea of how this looks. The previous fourth turning 1929 to 1945, starts with a stock market collapse. Then we have the Great Depression, FDR takes power, eventually World War II, and then we remake the entire world during the 30s. FDR's era, we were responding to this, this event, 1929, stock market collapse. And what did we do? We created all this crazy stuff that would have never been possible prior. FDIC worried about your bank. Don't worry, the Fed's got you lose your job. Don't worry, unemployment insurance has got you worried about retirement. Social Security, World bank, NATO, imf, Bretton Woods. All of this stuff was created in that period of time. If you rewind 10, 20 years, none of it would have been. None of it would have happened. But again, the pain is there, the stakes are high. We're willing to reset the game board and build our institutions anew. Then we go into the post war era, okay? And the post war era is defined by stability, Boring white picket fence, Woody Guthrie, you know, relative stability, relative equality. But the young people, as they do, they look around, they go, you guys are fucking nerds. What's so boring? This is so boring. Like, where's the sex, drugs and rock and roll? So like any good kid does, they push back on their parents? Right? That pins those two archetypes against each other, okay? And what does that do? The kids grow up, they push back, and they change the interior world and they create the psychedelic 60s, civil rights era, etc. Kids born in that period, they were under parented. Now you have the Gen X kids. So the boomers they raised, they under parented their kids. They were, they. They went from hippies to yuppies. They don't want responsibility, do as I say, not as I do, that type of thing. So then you have this under parented generation, Gen X. These are the bad boys. These are the latchkey kids. This is Elon Musk and Peter Thiel. And a lot of the Silicon Valley startup energy aligns with Gen Xers, okay? And that period of time is defined as the third turning. So second turning is that religious movement. Third turning is a period of deregulation and it's about individualism, okay? And that sows the seeds for future problems because as we deregulate, as we sort of take, take off the, the training wheels of society, it maintains its pace and its momentum for a while, but eventually those things catch up to us. And by deregulating all the banks, it sets the seeds for 2008, which is also the start of the fourth turning that we're in now. So that mirrors 1929. That transitions from third to fourth. And I'll tie one thing to politics. In the third turning, the politicians, they essentially minimize all the bad stuff. They're like, hey, the getting's good, just vote for me. It's a 90s baby. Bill Clinton, we're all good. And they would hide all the bad stuff. Then you have the fourth journey. What happens? Hope and change with Obama, Make America great again. Right? These are clearly just attacking how bad it is and how we need to change. So that's harnessing the mood shift from third to fourth. And I don't think that these politicians, maybe some of them read this, but it's an intuitive thing. You get feedback and you end up there. And so, yeah, now we're in the fourth turning again. I expect a total war or some sort of massive climax in the next five, ten years. Previous Fourth Turning was World War II, the Civil War, Revolutionary War, etc. And so that those are the periods we can look to for information or some parallels. And I think now we're very close to the climax. I did think Covid could have been the climax. And then all of a sudden it just tore us apart, made it even worse. So that's out. What we'd be looking for is a unification process, a process that says, I don't care what your day to day politics are. We got a band together to get through this really hard thing. Okay, that could be Ukraine, Russia. Nope. Could be Middle Eastern war. Probably not. That feels like proxy war. That feels like us doing bidding for other countries in the region that I don't need a name for keeping us on YouTube. It could be Taiwan and China. It could be something, it could be just the fiat sovereign debt bubble for all the governments blowing up at the same time. I don't know what it will be, but those are the things I have my eye on. And then after we have the climax, we sort of rebuild, we redo the institutions, think maybe transition to a bitcoin standard, maybe realign the geopolitics that we have in the world. We already saw the parties, the Dems and Republicans in the US totally realigned. And so we're starting to see, you know, if you squint a little bit, what the next chapter could be. And I expect us to enter that maybe 2030, maybe up to 2035. The theory does not predict things, but, but it does predict the mood. It predicts how the constellation of the archetypes, the hero, nomad, prophet, artist, right? How those archetypes are and what age they are, that predicts the mood. And so one final point here, otherwise I can run forever on this in, in the third turning, okay, that period of time would be like 80s to 2008, right in that window. Then if we had a reason to go to war, we had a catalyst, we just wouldn't go to war. We would look around and say, what's the point? The Gittin's good. Why would we take this big risk? There's no point. However, you have 08, you have Covid stuff, whatever. You have more impetus to go to war as things, the stakes are higher. Actually a better example is the Germans sank the Lusitania or whatever that ship's called in the early 1900s, which was a third turning event. What did we do? Yeah, whatever, don't worry about it. Okay, fast forward a little bit. Pearl harbor happens. Then what? The people the next day are like, yep, total war. I'm in. And the whole country mobilizes. So that kind of gives you similar catalysts, different outcomes. Because the mood is different, the constellation of those archetypes changes. And that's what we can use to predict our outcomes.

B (26:53)

If you've accepted that we're living through the fourth turning, then it's time to get yourself some bitcoin and then go to bitcoin bitbox Swiss Walker and use the promo code walker for 5% off the easy to use fully open Source Bitcoin only Bitbox 02 hardware wallet. Then get your bitcoin off the exchange into your own self custody and prepare yourself for the chaos that is to come. The world is going pretty wild right now, but bitcoin is ripping and your stack will soon be worth a heck of a lot more in fiat value than it is today as every currency around the world hyperinflates. So now is the perfect time to get your security locked down tight with Bitbox. I really want to emphasize emphasize that the Bitbox 02 is easy as hell to use. Whether you're brand new to Bitcoin, it's your first time setting up a hardware wallet, or you are a well seasoned psychopath. It is Bitcoin only and fully open source. No need to trust me. You can head to their GitHub and verify that for yourself. When you go to Bitbox Swiss Walker and use the promo code Walker, not only do you get 5% off, but you also help support this podcast. So thank you. First of all, thank you for the background on this and I would be happy to let you just run straight for three hours on this, but I have a couple questions I want to pick into a little bit because one thing is I've been going over this and you've written a lot about this, you've done a lot of appearances, talked about this. And one thing that I noticed in just kind of my own research is it seems like each of the fourth turnings also had the be kind of the right before that fourth turning kicks off, there appears to be some sort of technological revolution happening around that same time. Like so I mean if you look at like the before, you know, before the Revolutionary War, you had kind of some of the early scientific revolution in terms of just like navigation, military and even like economic practices. And but by the time of the American Revolution, it was like, okay, these were, you know, there was the steam engine, there was like various like mechanization of textile production, things like that, the Civil War, you kind of have like that second industrial revolution kicking off around that same time. Also these revolutions aren't just like purely like nice good things for humanity. It's also tends to be like advances in weaponry. Right. That seems to also come along with it. And then you've got. Okay, we let's fast forward to the next fourth turning, which is like around the Great Depression and World War II. Well, you had some very like early computing, you had nuclear energy, obviously you had mass production happening in the early 19th century. And then you come to where we are now. Okay, right before this fourth turning, if we're assuming this kicked off in 2008, you saw, I mean the Internet era, like the Information age started to kick off with that information Age. It may, you know, may Say, well, what's the weapon there? Well, I think we all clearly now see that very much the. As much of a tool as our global connectivity is and the free flow of information that can be weaponized in very physical ways, that is attacking critical infrastructure tied to the Internet, or it can be mechanized in very, let's say, in terms of, you know, information warfare, propaganda, the dissemination thereof. Would you agree that you sort of, I mean, and is it. And it seems too much of a coincidence to say, huh, Things start to get really kind of chaotic and hectic and break down right after there's a massive shift from one level of technological information where we leapfrog and go above to another level and say, okay, this is the new normal now. This is the new paradigm. Like the world has changed forever and there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. Is that kind of where. Where you're at as well?

A (30:36)

So, okay, I've got a complex view on this one. It's black and white clear that technology shapes society in a way. There's no question that it's true. However, through this thesis, it wouldn't. It. You can't really predict when new technology comes throughout the thesis. What you can predict through fourth turning lens is that how will we respond to the new technology? What are the people looking for? What are they going to use the technology for? Right. I do believe that technology inherent has a bias, inherently has a bias. So a CBDC versus Bitcoin, are they neutral? People say a tool is neutral. A knife can cut your apple or it can stab your neighbor. Right. I don't think it's black and white. They're all neutral. Right. A CBDC has tremendous power for abuse, very little power to empower individuals. Bitcoin is the complete opposite. It's very hard to abuse people with Bitcoin. And so I think technology is biased inherently. That's point one. Point two is the mood. The fourth turning mood would dictate how we use and how we develop that technology. A good example would be the Internet. Okay. The early Internet was a cypherpunk thing. It was a libertarian thing. The personal computing revolution is going to empower the libertarian dream. Right. Then we had the. That was a Gen X idea, of course. They're the bad boys, they're the nomads, they're the individuals. Then we have the millennials come over. Our boy Zuck. What does Zuck do? Well, he's trying to get laid and he's struggling. So he creates face smash for whatever incel reasons. Although now he might be based and we might like him. We'll see. But point being, Zuck made the thing that millennials want. Millennials are the hero generation. We're communitarian, we're not individualistic. We're going to flirt with communism and socialism like we already have unironically. You look around, there's hammer and sickle and down with capitalism and call each other comrades. Obviously misplaced energy, but that's what we should expect right now. The same was True in the 30s. Red Scare, Communists everywhere. Like that was very real. And we're doing it again right now. We're on the knife's edge between what way do we go during this period? Okay, so long story short, I think technology plays a role in society, a massive role, but it does not change the generational cycle that's below that, that's embedded into our biology. It can't go away. But what technology could do is amplify this period or decrease that period. It changes the shape of the mood. But the generations are the generations. And so yeah, Facebook is Gen Z or Millennial or sorry, whatever we are millennials. And personal computing will be Gen X. That's one way to slice that.

B (33:26)

And then I guess AI becomes the zoomers. That's, that's, that's what, that's what they get. Well, I'm curious too. So I mean, I think that's a fair characterization. Like to simplify it in other ways that culture would be, is sometimes upstream of technology. Like granted, they both influence each other in different ways. Like technology can also help shape culture because its mere existence is obviously going to change how culture reacts. But the culture that is present when the technology emerges also kind of dictates how that technology is used for. For what purposes? As you compared, you know, cypherpunk versus Facebook, uses of the Internet. Right. But I'm curious as well, just because of course, as bitcoin think boys, we have to look at things through orange colored glasses. Where, where do you see money generally fitting into this kind of theory? Because the other, the other, you know, if we're looking through this fourth turning lens, in the midst of these fourth turnings, there also always appears to be some sort of monetary collapse, inflationary debasement event. Right. May maybe it's, it's not a full out collapse, but oftentimes it is like civil war era. Yep. We had collapsing currencies. I mean just looking at the US you know, collapsing currencies, revolutionary era. Obviously that was initially driven by economic concerns. Right. Trying to get out from under the boot of those teabagging Brits. And then you look at 2008, kicking off this current one, the most massive debasement event the world has ever seen, which now seems small in comparison to the COVID print. Right. And each subsequent print will presumably dwarf the prior one. Excuse me, but is, is that kind of also just a key facet of that? Is that just an, is that a natural function of a society that's beginning to kind of break down, or is that something that, you know, like, it's like a chicken and egg type of thing? Like what comes first, the societal cultural breakdown or the debasement and destruction of the monetary unit?

A (35:26)

Yeah, it's a good question. I think it's the right question, by the way. And there is no linear causality here. This is a complex emergent system. All these variables influence each other in ways that are unpredictable and chaotic and really hard to map. And so I, I don't, I haven't done a long, long term study of economic transitions and how they relate to the fourth turning. I would think that the large ones would most likely line up their peaks or their troughs, however you look at it with fourth turning periods, because that's the period where we have the largest societal shift. But if you ask bitcoiners, what were the big changes like the Federal Reserve came in the second or third turning. Bretton woods was fourth turning, but the petrodollar off the gold was in the second turning. Right. And so if we look over the last hundred years, the largest one was Bretton woods by far. I think we're going through the next largest realignment now, which would be fourth turning. So my belief is that we have, maybe we should assume, on average, minor changes to monetary systems would occur on the second turning. Ish. And major ones would be on the fourth turning. That's how I would see it. So every 40 years we have a small one. Every. Or sorry, every 80 years we have a small one. And every 80 years we have a big one. So every 40 it goes small change, big change, small change, big change. That would be where I think the gravity of these forces would align. But it would not happen perfectly. We should expect it to not happen perfectly because it's complex and there's so many variables. That's how I'd see it mapping out. I do have a lot of opinions on where we go with money in the fourth turning and how bitcoin fits, but I want to get that out of the way because a lot of people ask good Questions like this, doesn't technology drive society? Or isn't the fourth turning just horoscopes for intellectuals? Which is a really good critique. If you're knee deep into the theory, you're like, oh, it's another doom porn. Oh, it's another, like, lame cycle thing. In order to sell your book and scare people, we always have these. Right? Very, very good place to start. I started there too. And I've spent so much time with the material that I now believe that it's deep, deep, deep biology. It's as deep as you rebel against your parents. Okay. I think, and I think that's really important. I think the idea that like, that's actually a self preservation mechanism for our genes because you want diversity in process and opinion. In order to have a healthy society, you need new energy, new ideas. You need to fight it out every generation to see, like, double down on what's good. And the older you are, the more rigid your belief system is. So your role is to say, hey, that's not how I used to do it. And the young kids are supposed to say, you boomers are stupid. Like, check out this new idea. And then the old people will say, yeah, but you don't really have the full context. Like, you don't even know why we chose these things. And that tension is what creates longevity in our species, in our civilization. The exact same tension exists in markets. Okay, in order to have a healthy restaurant market, you must have tons of restaurants fail. Wait a minute, how does that work? Okay, you need restaurants taking risk in order to create something new, change with the adapting tastes and how society moves. And you need a vibrant energy of risk takers. And most of them are going to ultimately fail. But that's how you keep the restaurant industry happy. And the exact same thing is true in civilization. We need new ideas and we need to battle over them. And so, yeah, so point being is, I think this is really deep and it's embedded in our civilization. It's not going anywhere. I think it's also slightly becoming global now. I think we're syncing up with the rest of the world for the first time. I would say 1945, when we ended the last fourth tourney and we had some global forces. Obviously we're on the end of World War II, but we didn't have a proper globalized economy. We didn't have global information spread. We didn't have, as we had more siloed liquidity in terms of finance. And so I think now we're, we're hyper Global. And I think that what we're seeing now is similar 4th turning patterns all around the world. You have extreme left and extreme right popping up everywhere. And that would be the same force. It's, it's the civilization saying we need to make a big change. And again, on a knife's edge, you could go left, you could go right there. Same in the US Although I will say that I think Trump winning gives us the best chance of another century of American excellence. We have the things we need here, we have problems just like everywhere else. But I think relatively we're in the strongest position today and it's ours to screw up. That's how I feel. If the election went a different way, I think we would, I would feel the opposite. I would say we have a huge risk in front of us and I would say now we have a moderate risk in front of us. And I, and I hope we can navigate that.

B (40:36)

No, yeah, it's nice to have a little bit less. Less risk or perhaps just a different color of risk. But one thing that I really want to dig into is this idea because you mentioned earlier, okay, these, the fourth turning basically always ends with total war. Now, total war, as you correctly pointed out in these prior turnings, like if, okay, look back to The World War II, if we look back to the Civil War, Revolutionary War, this was total war, relatively speaking, right? This was total war. For, if we're looking at America, a civil war is about as total as you can get for a war within one nation. Right? The Revolutionary War, I mean, that was literally fighting off the greatest power in the world by a bunch of, you know, a bunch, a bunch of hooligans who decided we didn't want to pay your tea tax anymore. World War II, now that was quite a world war. I mean, that was a, you know, even just compared to World War I, they were vastly different in scope and impact. And now we look at today and you mentioned just this globalization in terms of the interconnectedness of all things. Right. That all of these cycles are syncing up a little more because we are so connected. So do you think one total war is inevitable in these turning cycles? But then the follow up question to that is, what does total war look like in this cycle? Is there a chance for it to be. Yeah, it's repeating still. But our version of what total war is looks somewhat different. I mean, on the one hand, I could see it being more of a, you know, an information based total war. On the other hand, if it's a hot war, you Know, a kinetic war and it's total war in a globally connected world. That's a pretty terrifying thought, right? And I would hope that nobody really wants that. But, but how do you see that? Is there inevitability? And then does the shape of what that conflict looks like, is it drastically different in this cycle?

A (42:43)

Yeah, great question. So I think I touched on it earlier, but all total wars have happened in fourth turnings in the US history and all four turnings have had a total war. So one to one correlation. However, I do not think it's required. We should not expect. It must be required. What we do need is the forces sufficient enough to mobilize the entire group in order to do something big. And in order to create those conditions, we need it to feel existential. Okay, World War II felt existential. They bombed Pearl Harbor. Civil War obviously was existential. Revolutionary War, I would say existential for those involved. That's kind of a hybrid war, internal versus external. That's another angle to look here. Obviously World War II's External. Civil wars obviously internal Revolutionary War. It was not a black and white situation. Majority of the fighting was loyalists versus patriots, Americans on Americans on American soil. Very little of the fighting was actually with the Brits. And so that's kind of a hybrid situation, but very existential. Huge changes come out of these things, right? And so I think another way to look at this, to pull in William James, as any good think boy would, he has a speech in 1910 I recommend called the Moral equivalent of War. And he, he believes that like you need to have a moral equivalent of war in order to maintain society. You need a credible threat and you need to solve it and you need to sort of like reaffirm your group. And he, he believes or he hopes that in the future it doesn't need to be a kinetic war, it just needs to feel like that. Okay? So it would be my hope that maybe this cycle, maybe next cycle, we can evolve as a civilization to get our war energy out without like blowing other up. And I don't know what that could look like, but I'll pontificate a little bit here. So I, I foresee, I do not foresee a global war with tanks and ships and aircraft carriers and whatever. I don't foresee a nuclear war either. There's a chance, but I hope we don't go down that path. What I do expect is something more like a Cold War 2.0 cyber war, an economic war. Blow up your water treatment plant and blame Korea, even though we did it and we're China. I suspect more autonomous drone stuff. I expect more information warfare, like try to change the opinions of people, tell us that the aliens are coming, right? Like a more sophisticated psychological bouquet of battle. And then who does the fightings? The fighting, autonomous drone swarms, that's number one. And so you want asymmetric warfare. Go look at the Red Sea. Right now the might of the US Navy, which we've been bragging about for a long time, is getting their ass kicked by a bunch of rebels with like 200 or thousand dollar drones and they're just making little bombs and you know, a thousand dollar drone takes out a $10 million boat and you're like, okay, this doesn't work. And so that's the type of fighting I expect. I expect it to be confusing, I expect it to be for a long time and really annoying. And no one's really facing up. It's kind of like this shadow war and it's like behind the scenes jockeying as the power vacuum opens up globally. And so what's the global reserve currency? How does the US and China trade relations change? Does Trump go grab Mexico, Canada, Greenland, the Panama Canal? Oh my God, that stuff is so funny to me. He's so petty and so funny.

B (46:39)

Let's put a pin in that and come back to it because it is just wild.

A (46:43)

So funny to me. Okay, so that's the type of battle I see. And in order to have resolution in the fourth turning, we need to be done with the fighting and sort of be exhausted by it and find stability. I think the two things we want to see solved here is the debt problem. And we need to have strong institutions that we actually trust. We're, we're at a hundred year low in trust in our institutions. It's abysmal. And you feel it, you know it. It's obvious and for good reason. They do not deserve our trust. They deserve to be mocked and they deserve all the scorn that they get. And that's just where we are. And so what happens with the debt? All the sovereigns are up to their eyeballs in debt. All the corporations are, all the people are. It has to go somewhere. You referenced this earlier. 2001 bubble, small kick the can down the road blew up an even bigger 08 housing crisis. Well, we're not going to solve that either. Kick it down the road. The only place to go is the sovereigns. Now the sovereigns have all the debt. There's nowhere else to go. So we have to resolve it over the next Period of time? Is it a jubilee? Is it a decade of financial repression and we just inflated away? Is it growth plus? That can go a couple different ways. There's no way we're doing austerity. That's the other option. Throw that out. No will enter Bitcoin. Okay, I think properly understood, Bitcoin is a new type of institution. It is a public good. It is a monetary system owned by the commons. It serves the purposes of savings and monetary transfer and all the functions of money. And it also is very reliable. You don't have to trust the people that run the Federal Reserve or the big banks. You can trust this neutral Internet protocol in the same way that we trust our email protocols and HTTPs, et cetera. And so I think that actually fulfills an important need. Each generation has their own way to grasp it. Gen gen, Gen X. The Elon's of the world. Yeah, it's libertarian money. It's go fuck yourself money. Great, easy millennials, a little harder. We're collectivists. It's money for the public good. It's for the people that need it the most. It's good for the masses at the expense of the few. True Gen Z, well, they're the artists. They were born during this chaotic fourth turning. They're insular, they're under socialized, they're very emotional. They love it because they don't have to go to a bank branch. You don't have to talk to anyone. You just send some digits online, stay in the basement, no problem. That fits them. Okay, so the people want it of all generations. It solves the institutional problem and of course it helps on the debt problem because you can, you know, siphon a little, little value over there, watch the number go up. All of a sudden your debt's not as bad. That's not all we need. We need major productivity gains. We need to unleash energy in a way that we haven't done recently. We need a whole bunch of stuff. But I see Bitcoin playing the role. And I think its ultimate outcome in a fourth turning is to decrease the risk, decrease the magnitude of damage or war or pain can go down now that Bitcoin's here. We should expect it to be less now that Bitcoin's here. And the reason is individuals can save themselves rather than you being at the, you know, backed into a corner financially because your country blew up the currency and your savings is gone. Well, maybe you save a little bit in Bitcoin so the pain of your currency breaking isn't so great, maybe a corporation can do the same, maybe a government like El Salvador can do the same. And so it's sort of a pressure release valve, taking the most volatile energy around the world and slowly letting it out in certain ways so that if and when we do have a large crack up boom, it will be a little bit less violent. That's how I see that one.

B (50:44)

So does that mean that you don't view bitcoin as potentially breaking the cycle? More so for those that would choose to accept it, for those who get on the life raft, it's an option to make the cycle less painful for them. Whether that be an individual, corporation, nation, state, whatever. Bitcoin's not stopping. Like what's, what's going to happen is going to happen. But if you're on board with this, your, your fourth turning looks a lot less shitty than other, you know, other folks. Is that, is that fair to say?

A (51:16)

Exactly right. And if only 1% of the world owns bitcoin and they're insulated, I don't think it would change the trajectory of the overall cycle too much. But if we watch bitcoin penetrate society before the sovereign debt bubble blows up, all of a sudden the pain of that experience goes down for some percentage, hopefully a large percentage. And if that's true, then we won't have as many people being desperate. The people you have to watch out for are the people with nothing to lose, whether that's a drug addict on the street waving a bottle in front of you, or that's a government who's desperate and they want to raise property taxes, create unrealized capital gains, eat the rich, all this kind of stuff, by the way, Eat the rich, soak the rich. That comes up every fourth turning as well. So, yeah, anyways, save yourself, save your neighbors, and hope bitcoin adoption. Yeah, hopefully a lot of people adopt it slowly over time. We just keep punting on Max Payne because that's best for the planet.

B (52:19)

So yeah, let's hope we can keep that bitcoin price achievable and low. I mean, right now it's looking great. We're, we're under 0.1 million. Like that's fantastic. That is great for us stackers out there in our DCAs. One thing that I wanted to discuss the, a little bit is, and we, we touched on this just before the episode was this, this idea of ancyclosis and this polybius theory. So he was a, for those that don't know, he was a Greek philosopher born like 200 BCE and he proposed this theory called anacyclosis, which when I'd only heard about this recently, like this year, and I thought it was pretty fascinating. So it's a theory of basically political evolution. So less so. I think the fourth turning really focuses a lot on let's say, societal, cultural evolution and how those shifts happen, really paying attention to the archetypes within them. An acyclosis is a little bit of a different, I would call it maybe a, I don't know if it's actually higher level or lower level theory, but I think it's, it's a longer time frame theory where you basically go through these six different cycles. It's, it starts out with, you know, a monarch rule by one that usually arises out of some sort of chaos, which we'll get to in, in point number six. But then that monarchy turns into a tyranny, a corruption of the monarchy. The ruler becomes oppressive to their people, which then switches into an aristocracy being the ruling class. It's ruled by the few, not by the one. And they're often the kind of the elites, the, you know, the best among society, that overthrew the tyrannical monarch who had, you know, become tyrannical after too much time. Then that aristocracy though also becomes corrupted and it turns into an oligarchy. Right. So then basically the elites who were once benevolent and overthrew the tyranny then become kind of the oppressors of the masses. And then that typically shifts back again the other way towards democracy. Right. Great democracy, ruled by the many people are rejecting oligarchic oppression. But then democracy turns into oclocracy or mob rule, and that's basically okay. Democracy was corrupted just like all of the other. Just like the monarch was corrupted to a tyrant, just like the aristocracy corrupted to an oligarchy, democracy is corrupted and it turns into mob rule. And that generally leads to chaos. And then the cycle repeats itself again as another strongman, another monarch emerges to lead the people out of chaos. And as I was just kind of preparing for our, our chat here today, I couldn't help thinking that we're at this interesting point in history where it seems that the cycles of anticyclosis and the fourth turnings line up in a really interesting way because that, that, that's not always the case. And I haven't gone back far enough to, to actually chart this out of when they line up and when they don't. But in this case we certainly one can make the argument that we're, I don't think we're in just a. The beautiful, fresh democracy anymore, right? We've had democracy for a while. Democracy has become stale. People are, are questioning whether or not this works. Right. We've certainly descended into a sort of mob rule. Whether we're at the end game of that, I don't know. But we're clearly somewhere along that path at the same time as we're within this fourth Turning. And so what's really interesting to me is this will at least be the first time in many generations where you've had these things line up. Now, granted, we don't have democracies everywhere in the world or mob rule ever in the world. There's a mix all over. But if we're looking at America, which is by all rights the most powerful nation in the world, you and I are both American, so we'll speak to that. We're seeing these cycles line up, and I find that to be quite fascinating. And I'm just wondering what this kind of this, this confluence of these things coming together, what that means at the same time as we have. So we've got these, you know, the anacyclosis and fourth turning cycling together at this very unique time that we also have something that has never happened before, which is a com. Money that is completely separated from state and is about as perfect as money can be. We have Bitcoin. And so it makes one wonder if the breaking at the end of these. These cycles converging is going to be even more intense because they're lining up like this. But at the same time, what emerges after has the potential to be so much more, not to sound like floofy, but so much more beautiful than anything that has come before. Like that may actually be able to. Ultimately, it won't break the cycles this time, but afterwards, when this all starts again with bitcoin in existence, it may have the chance to completely change the direction of these cycles going forward. Thoughts? Fair.

A (57:15)

Yeah, this is great. So this is a new theory to me. We chatted about a little bit before we recorded, so I'm fresh on this. So forgive me for not understanding that material well, but there's a lot of parallels here. So I would assume the Greek dude who came up with this would also say that it's not a perfect system. It's not a repeatable linear system. It is a, hey, let's look at incentives, let's look at history, let's make a framework. In the same way, the fourth turning is not a perfect mechanistic system. I would believe the same is here. If I'm reading the tea leaves here. Well, we sort of were sort of post democracy, and now we're in something closer to an OCH lacrosse. Like mob. Like cancel culture woke mob. Deep state you can kind of say is a mob. It's definitely like a shadow government, shadow rule. Everything feels fake. All the. All the official things sort of feel fake. So that would make sense to me. And then if that's true, we'd be hoping for a renewal in our lifetimes. Is that how you see us in time?

B (58:20)

Yeah. And. And I would also say the inter. Another interesting parallel between the Fourth Turning and anticyclosis is the idea of kind of. Of balance or of trying to find balance. Where you start, it's, you know, in the Fourth Turning, you have each generation pushing against the one before it, and they're pushing back. Right here you have basically each cycle of government. Monarchy becomes tyranny, tyranny pushes back against modernity. Monarchy, aristocracy becomes oligarchy, democracy becomes oclocracy. Like, you have this same sort of tension between the. Between the immediately adjacent stages. And that seems to be kind of the common thread here, is that there's always that push back and forth, and eventually that push reaches a point where something completely breaks and people say, we need to. We. We got to start over. We've got to do. We've got to do better. We've got to do this again, and we need. They also then tend to look for people who can lead them out of that chaos. Right. Which is another. That's another interesting point where maybe that's a segue into. Into Trump. I'm not sure. But, you know, you. You see the people looking for these kind of leaders, you see, like, I think Bukele is that kind of leader who led his people, clearly led his people out of chaos. I mean, that. That is what they were in. That was a incredibly dangerous country that is now has the lowest homicide rate in the western hemisphere. Like, that's. That's incredible that he's done that for his people. And they are happy about it, but they, you know, they didn't want. They didn't want a bunch of votes on how they should get down gang violence. They wanted somebody who took care of the gangs. Right. People look, in times of chaos, they want somebody to just fix it. And I think that's kind of where we're at right now. Your thoughts?

A (60:07)

Yeah, I think that's right. Let me, Let me run through how I see the Fourth Turning, interacting with this. And you can kind of help me course. Correct a little bit. So if you look throughout the Fourth Turning in American history, every 80, 90 years, we go through the big cycle, redo it. Right. When we're redoing the institutional world, the way that the author likes to phrase this, is like we come up with a new republic each time. So Neil Howe, one of the authors, the other one's no longer living, he would say, we're about to enter the fourth American republic, and each time we've gone through a fourth turning, we've slightly shifted away from the OG American values. And so I would say the original founding of the country would be, I mean, it's a constitutional republic, but something more along the lines of a democracy. Is that how you would describe that?

B (60:59)

Yeah, absolutely. Fair.

A (61:01)

And I think then maybe what I would say is since 1776 until now, we've been drifting away from democracy more towards the mob rule. And every 80, 90 years, we take another giant step towards that. I think that's probably true. And so some history here. Ben Franklin outside, I think it was Ben Franklin outside of the Continental Congress. They come out of there after they're figuring out, like, trying to figure out the government. He was asked a question, what kind of government did you guys create? And Ben Franklin says, a republic if we can keep it. Okay, so he's kind of insinuating about maybe he knew this cycle. I assume he did, as many founding Fathers read this stuff. And so he was keenly aware of their point in cycles, maybe the cycle may be a different cycle. But he also commented on how we got to keep it alive. We got to protect it. And so each time we've gone through this, we've had to make radical changes based on the information in front of us. I think it's clear we've left OG American values quite a bit. We have a stronger federal government than ever intended. There's many, many other things like that. And so I think if we're going to go into a renewal cycle, which does pair up nicely with the first turning, does pair up nicely with Trump as the great champion. For the fourth turning. Observers out there who always ask me who the great champion is, I think it's Trump. If we go down this route, then I would say on an optimistic path. Bitcoin is like the gas on the fire in a way that we want it to be, Meaning returning in the renewal cycle, returning back to OG American values, distribution of power, property rights, smaller federal government, less interventionalism abroad. Bitcoin is money has all those same principles And I think we're ripe for that resurgency. I think Trump's point of view on MAGA is something more akin to a restoration. It's not conservatism. We're not conserving the stuff we've been doing, hopefully. And so we can restore. Right. Restoration kind of feels right. And all these things line up. And if they all do line up, either we're pattern recognizing machines who see patterns that don't exist possible, or if multiple patterns or multiple theories, points of view share the same outcome, that would lead me to believe that we have a higher confidence, that's where we're heading. And so I would choose to believe that. And so I'll choose to believe that the fourth American republic, the bright orange future, the next first turning, whatever you want to call it, will be on a bitcoin standard. I would expect us to have some sort of a CBDC attempt globally, ultimately fall back to bitcoin. I would expect equality of opportunity to supersede equality of outcome. I would expect more symmetry between state and citizen. I would hope young people have an optimistic view of the future, which is certainly not the case today. I would expect less financialization in our economy. I would expect pronatalism. Let's be honest, depopulation is a thing,000 or 10,000 times bigger risk than overpopulation. I cannot believe we are so dense to still think like that. And so the next age is the orange age. It's not the golden age and I'm here for it.

B (64:24)

I mean, speaking of repopulation, I think bitcoiners are really doing their best. Seems like every, every couple of weeks. I'm more often than that, honestly. Bitcoiners were busy during the bear market, let's just, let's just say that. And it wasn't just stacking sats.

A (64:40)

So sorry, what happens in your personal life every few weeks?

B (64:44)

No, no, no, I'm saying seeing like new baby announcements and everything from, from bitcoiners, you know. Oh, right, yeah. Or just like it's impressive. Love to see a chart of average, average number of babies, you know, in the normie population versus the laser eyed population. I have to imagine the laser eyed population is out repopulating the normie population. But I don't have the hard data to back this up, unfortunately. Just anecdotal.

A (65:13)

It works that way, right?

B (65:13)

It sure does. It sure does.

A (65:15)

And I think there's something here because I think reproducing is a function of how individuals see the future. Are you really uncertain about the future? Does the future look really bad? Are you economically in bad shape? Do you not have a support system? Are you not in sound mental faculties? Can you not find a partner? Right. You add all that kind of stuff up and at a societal level, of course you reproduce less. And then now we have the control population or the experimental population, I should say, that's the bitcoiners. We've interacted with a piece of software, money, whatever social movement, whatever this religious thing, whatever it is, it changes individuals, myself included. Now is it simply because I have a larger net worth now than I did pre Bitcoin and that means I'm less uncertain about the future, which means I want to reproduce? Could it be that simple? Or am I absorbing bitcoin principles in a way that's deeper than that? Or is it because I'm exposed to more optimistic people and I'm in this community, I'm in a new community, let's say, that is more pronatalist. And because I'm a social creature like everyone else, I am influenced by the people around me. And it has nothing to do with the money. I don't, I don't know exactly what's going on, but I definitely observe bitcoin changing people. And Bitcoin teaches you self responsibility in a way that I think prepares you for, for raising kids. And I think, yeah, I think, I think humans are at their best, especially men. The more responsibility we take on, the more fulfillment we have in life. I've never worked harder. I've never been more tired at the end of the day in my entire life. As chasing around a two year old who's just growing out in the kitchen and pissing off the wife while working like a psycho at a startup, right? And trying to maintain health outside of that. And I couldn't be more satisfied at the end of the day when I was effing off, traveling and staying in hammocks and surfing all the time and exploring whatever I wanted, ultimate freedom for years, I wouldn't go back for a second. I would rather go play with mag tiles upstairs with my two year old, honestly.

B (67:33)

Amen to that. It's a beautiful thing. I think it's because you realize that light switch flips and you realize, oh wow, this is the, like, this is the most fulfilling thing that I could be doing. Like just being here and like not just being with your kids but being able to support them, right? Being able to offer them some stability and a future that you know that you are working for while at the same time Being able to, to mess around with them and, and just have a good time because it's a, it's a good kind of tired. It's that lower back sore kind of tired where. Because you've been bending over and picking stuff up. But an unintended side effect I realized of having a young kid is man, I think I've gotten more flexible because it's just like you're just constantly up and down. It's like you're going with kind of like the Japanese style of you're just always sitting cross legged and then getting back up and down. I think there's something to that keeps you more limber. Although you may be a bit sore, but I digress into stretching.

A (68:37)

So I unironically have had the same thought where I'm, we're a similar height, we're, you know, 6, 3ish, or whatever. They say taller people have more problems with their backs or whatever I feel is true. I don't know if it's true, it doesn't matter. But I hate sitting on the ground and I always have. Maybe when I was like a kid and I was like hyper flexible and having become like a desk jockey body type, you know, prior to that I could sit on the ground, but now I sit on the ground, it's like pulling on my hamstrings, which pulls on my low back. It doesn't feel like I can do it for very long. Okay, fast forward now. I have a kid for the first six months or whatever, he's pretty much just stuck on the ground and I gotta go down there and play with him all the time. So I spent a crazy amount of time sitting, two, three weeks max pain. And then I leveled up my body or something and my body gave up and it's like, cool, man. We're sitting on the ground now. No more pain.

B (69:31)

Yeah, we're, we're cross legged people now. Got it. Like I got the memo, you need to do this all the time. Not sure why, but. Okay, let's like, we'll make, we'll make some room for it. No, I, I had the like the same experience those first few weeks. I was like, oh boy, this is like rough. And I thought I was like in decent shape and pretty flexible. And then it was like not enough to deal with that. And then ours has started. Like he's almost walking now. And so there's been a lot of walking, you know, with him and whatnot. And he's wanted to just like for whatever reason try to walk up and down the stairs, just repeatedly. Like, I mean, literally like 20 times in a row up and down the stairs. And I'm like, honestly, not even mad. This is a killer workout. Like, I'll just, you know, keep going stabilizing. You try not to have both of us fall on our asses and get a little workout at the same time. It's great.

A (70:15)

Do you think little man is trying to be more like his dad? Do you think that's what's.

B (70:22)

Maybe sees me, sees me go now it's like, if I'm going up the stairs, he's like, he's not happy about it. He's like, I want to be doing that too. Like, you better not be going without me. So it's gonna be wild once he starts talking, you know, because then I can really start teaching him Austrian economics. You know, right now I'm not sure if he gets it when I'm, you know, reading him Hayek and Rothbard and whatnot. So, you know. Yeah, gotta wait.

A (70:43)

I delete two now. We're at the grocery store last week and he. He put some ice cream in the car and I'm like, what are you doing, dude? He's like, what do you mean, dad, I'm on the margin. I'm pricing it in.

B (70:56)

Seriously?

A (70:57)

No.

B (70:58)

Oh. Oh, man. I was really hoping so. I love one of my favorite tweet formats is just make up ridiculous things that obviously a small child didn't say and tweet it exactly right. It's a wonderful format. But you honestly had me going there. I was like, okay, two maybe. I mean, you're his dad, so perhaps that could happen.

A (71:17)

He does talk in full sentences, but he hasn't picked up much Austrian economics yet.

B (71:22)

Okay, Give him until he's three and then start drilling them into the mises and everything. That's a good place to start, I think. Keep it nice and simple.

A (71:31)

Yeah. Can I selfishly ask you a couple questions?

B (71:35)

Sure, man. Yeah. This is an open forum related to.

A (71:38)

Parenting, so I've got two things in mind. One, I found out that many of the schools that we were considering have a two year wait to even consider going in. So I'm like, okay to pay more attention to schooling earlier than I was expecting. So there's some homeschooling questions. But before we get to that, I'm curious about actually, let's do homeschooling first. I don't want to open up two cans worms. History for me is that I was. I've always been a curious person, a self starter Never had a problem, like, with initiative and, like, getting excited and getting obsessed about stuff. Then I go to school and I find out that, oh, I guess I hate learning. And I suffered through school, and I got, like, fine grades, but it was painful, and I just got the desire to learn beaten out of me. And it became like, how do I get good grades so my parents aren't mad with the least amount of work? How do I manipulate my teachers so I can do what I want? How do I chase girls around, play sports? It was, like, honestly training me to be a good cog in a corporate machine. How to, like, do nothing but maintain perception. How to, like, yeah, anyways, and then, okay, I'm 22, 3, 4 5, somewhere around there. And I. I'm just gobsmacked by reality, which is that all I want to do is learn. It's the most. It's the best thing in the world. I want to orient my entire life around learning. Wait. I just spent, however, 15 years nonstop in a learning environment, and I hated it. And so I've been reflecting on that lately. Like, what do we do with kids? And I see my son upstairs, and the second he wakes up, it's whatever he's on his mind. He's like, dad, I want to go build porta potties with magtile. Which is what we did this morning. And he's got an insatiable desire to learn. It's infinite. And I have this vision where I'm going to drop him off at school and he's going to come home and be like, this is stupid. Anyways. So that's my background. I'm trying to think about homeschooling. You went through this. I've heard your story. You were like, am I the dumb one? Then you go become valedictorian. So clearly not. How do you think about homeschooling? How do you approach this? What's your point of view?

B (73:46)

So I am very grateful, the older I get, especially that my parents made the sacrifice to homeschool me, because I think it absolutely is a sacrifice. It is much easier to put your kid on a bus and send them away for eight hours a day than it is to homeschool them. That is undeniably true. So that being said, it's like, I know that speaking to both of my parents now, and we talk and hang out quite often, they're still, like, no regrets, very happy with having done it. In terms of my actual experience with it, I. I didn't realize, you know, you don't know what you got till it's gone. Like, I didn't realize what an incredible experience it was until I tasted the other side when, you know, the grass is always greener. Right? Like, I. I, you know, you. You know my story. But I. I made the decision. I told my parents when I was in eighth grade, like, I want to go to high school. Like, I want to go try out public school again. Because I was worried I was a complete moron. Like, because all my friends, like, they went to school for eight hours a day, then they came home and did homework and. And I would just get all my work done in, like, two hours in the morning and be done with it, and then go play outside and, you know, make campfires and whittle stuff or, you know, my mom took me to apprentice with a blacksmith one day who taught me about Fibonacci. And you do random stuff like that. Like, it's just awesome. But I was like, wow. I mean, they're just doing so much more school than me. They must just be ahead of me. And then I got to school, and I discovered that was very much not the case. I had a similar experience as you were. Like, I just. I like to just do stuff and learn stuff and figure stuff out and play around and build stuff. And there was just. There was no room for that. There was no time for that in public school. And I had some really great teachers. I honestly did. I'm super grateful to them. Like, my chemistry teacher, who was, you know, a bit of a black sheep, really hated administrative bureaucracy and all this stuff and was just a, you know, just a cool dude, had had some. Some really great math teachers as well. But. And this is not to knock teachers, right? This is to knock the system. Because I think most teachers do get into it because they genuinely care about and want to help kids. Like, if you're teaching in public school, you're not. You're not doing it for the money. Like, you're doing it for another reason. And so my experience was basically this public school system. And this is with the benefit of retrospect, because I think I was. I was not aware enough to see it at the time. You know, you're. You're young again. You're worried about other things, chasing girls, trying to, you know, do just enough to get by with your teachers, realizing that most of the work that they give you is complete, pointless, busy work. And I was obviously really good at doing that because I ended up valedictorian. Like, I was really good at making sure I got the right Grades, but it beats the creative side out of you, right? That's what it does. It's not meant. Public school is not meant to cultivate curious, dissident, questioning, doubtful, high agency humans. That's not this purpose. The purpose of the system is what it does. And you look at like people like yourself. I would say you made it through public school like it was. It did not help you. It. If just I'm guessing here, it probably only, you know, maybe you learned a couple things that you used later in life. Probably not. If both most of us look back at school, it's like most of it, it's like, oh, you know, like, you know, they were still teaching kids how to, you know, balance a checkbook like, you know, when we were in school. And that is not something any of us have ever had to do because our world is digital. Like, it's just, it's not even gearing you up for, for practical skills. Like I think vocational schools, like in terms of like college degrees when you get there. I think those are fantastic. Learn how to be a plumber. Learn how to do something that actually requires skill and training in a very practical way. That's excellent. That's not what K through 12 public school does. It is based on the Prussian system of education, which was meant to create diligent little cogs, diligent little workers and diligent little soldiers who would not question authority. The Nazis adopted that same model. Homeschooling is still illegal in Germany today from that Nazi era policy. They still have the Nazi era policy in place in Germany that makes homeschooling illegal. You are not allowed to oversee the education of your own children. You have to give it over to the state. And you know, I was talking with Daniel Prince Few, I guess this was back in December, because he's homeschooling their kids. They're world schooling them, homeschooling them. They've also had a mix of some public school as well and left that for many of the reasons that we're discussing now. And one of the things he said that I thought was really great was that there is a need to separate education from state. Like separating money from state is great, but that only goes so far if all of our children are still pushed through the same meat grinder of state sanctioned public education. Because it's not meant to make them into the greatest entrepreneurs or the greatest scientists or the greatest artists or the greatest philosophers. It's meant to make them really good at sitting in a desk for eight hours a day, which is what they're probably going to end up doing for the rest of their lives. And that's like a really, really sad thing. Kids are not meant to be sitting only amongst people of their own age, sitting at a desk. Don't, don't move, don't cause disruptions, don't go pursue this random thing. No, like your mind is, is so supple and is expanding at that time, the last thing you want to do with it is put it in a cage where somebody feeds whatever state sanctioned propaganda down their throat for eight hours a day for the majority of the year. Like, that's crazy to me. So that was a long winded way of saying if you have that feeling that that was your own experience, you see that same glimmer in your son, then go with that. Like your gut's going to tell you what, what's right. And if you are able to do that, you and your wife are able to do that. The beauty of it now is that it's way easier than when like my mom and dad were doing this. We didn't have like, you know, Khan Academy on YouTube or any number of these free courses online that you could do. Like it just didn't exist yet, you know. Now that exists and is available from so many different sources. I mean, you could just go to one of Michael Saylor's many educational websites and probably learn, you know, more than any public school is ever going to teach you. So like, that's, that's something I think that is really, really powerful and that parents who are raising young kids right now should definitely take advantage of because those tools are out there. They're easier to access than ever. Most of them are free. Like, there has never been a better time to try and homeschool your kids, especially because most of us work remote right now. Like it's. All of the pieces are in line for you to be able to spend more time with your kid, give them the best education they can possibly get, while still allowing them to, to pursue who they should be, which is a free thinking, high agency, gritty, dissident human being that's going to ask questions, give shit, and not bend the knee to whatever authority figure happens to step into their lives simply because that's how they were primed for eight hours a day for most of their childhood. Rant over thoughts, let's go.

A (81:07)

I'm going to send my wife that one. She's feeling somewhat intimidated that I'm the breadwinner. She, she works a little part time online too, but she Thinks it's going to fall on her and it's going to be intimidating. So I'm going to share that with her and maybe, maybe nudge that direction. Is that what you guys are planning, by the way?

B (81:24)

Yeah, that's, that's what we're planning. And I mean the other great thing is like if first of all I would say to your wife it's okay to feel intimidated, but she can absolutely do it. Like my mom, it primarily fell on her and while she was still like starting a company and everything else and she. Yeah, it was stressful at times, but she doesn't have a, she was an English major. Like she doesn't have a background in education or in anything else. You don't have to worry about like, oh well, how will I teach them algebra and stuff? I just read my algebra textbook and figured it out. I was shocked when I got to public school and I found they only did like every other problem, you know, odds or evens, then skip chapters. And I didn't even know you could look in the back of the book for answers, you know, like that was like news to me. I was like, oh my God, what's. Who's Bob and why do you guys keep getting answers from Bob? It's like back a book, dude. I'm like, what? Anyway, point being you could screw up so many things and still give your kid a way better education than public school. But on top of that, they will get something that they will never get from public school, which is the undivided attention of a parent who loves them more than anything in the world. And I think that is ultimately what's most important. It's not what they learn, it's how they're learning it. And the fact that you are able to be there as a parent, no teacher, no administrator, no bureaucrat will ever care as much about your kids as you do. And that is a fact.

A (82:48)

That's a really strong point. Just the self confidence from saying I give a shit enough about you to keep an eye on you and help you and teach you in the way that works best for you. And I took time out of my day to be there instead of ship you off to Mrs. Jones who's got 30 not nose kids and you're smart and the other kids on average are less smart. So she doesn't waste time for you because you're going to be fine. And then yeah, that reinforces all this weird psychology. Okay, one more on the same point. What about coming of age? So what I see is kids are little Peter Pans until they're like 30, 40, they never grow up, they never become a man, they never take on responsibility. We came up with the phrase, oh, I'm adulting now because I have like marginal responsibilities. And we're like crippled by the adulting today. Right. And I find it to be entirely pathetic. I also identify with some of that myself. I'm off, travel around the world and I'm 30, doing whatever I want, whatever. And so. And then I got radical transition from that to, all right, let's hurry up and get married, have kids. Part of that was digesting like a Jordan Peterson perspective of more responsibility, more fulfillment, where I was seeking optionality and freedom versus like actually some discipline and putting a little box around your freedom actually makes you more free or your life makes you more free. I watched my sister have a child, so I became an uncle for the first time, came close with this little one and I had some new feelings where I loved the shit out of this little thing. And I had this very real feeling that if my neighbor, who I like looks at my, my little niece the wrong way, I will bury him in my backyard and I wouldn't even feel bad. I'd be like, you shouldn't have looked at her. Like, that kind of scared me. I was like, okay, there's some very deep biology going on here right now. I need to explore that. And yeah. Which led to raising kids. So point being, okay, how do we prevent these little ones from being 30 year old Peter Pans? How do we. Like in many tribes they'd be like, dude, you gotta go solo now in camp and do a vision quest and kill a wild boar with a knife. If you don't come back, you're not part of us. What's the modern equivalent? How should we be thinking about this? Have you thought about this? How do we make fully formed adults at a reasonable age?

B (85:16)

I've thought about it a lot actually. And obviously I'm not. Our son is one. So I'm not long enough in the parenting. Parenting journey to be able to give advice to say, look, here's what we did and it worked. The way I've been thinking about it though, is a lot of it does come down to responsibility. Like I think so many of the. And and honestly bring it back to the fourth turning where the Gen Xers over parented and were helicopter parents and participation ribbons for everyone and making sure, you know, like the, you know, you're, you're where you're supposed to, where you're supposed to be. And there's no, like, unsupervised playtime. Like, like people doing, like, you know, you need, like, you know, play dates where we get all the kids together and it's like. You mean just like. You mean just like hanging out with your friends. Like, you don't need to, like, don't make it weird with this whole, like, play date thing. My. My thoughts is that, look, as difficult as it may be, especially in this day and age where everything is connected, giving your kids a chance to disconnect and actually know that look, I'm like, on my own here. Like, I'm, you know, my. I am given enough trust by my parents that they trust me not to be a complete jackass and, you know, screw something up or get myself hurt too badly. Like, kids are going to get hurt, right? Like, I, man, I got hurt a lot. Never broke any bones though, somehow. So it was never that bad split. I mean, cut some pretty bad cuts and things fell through the ice like three times. Never drowned though. So, yeah, I went. I went through the ice like three different times. Two, two in one river and then once in a lake on my buddy's back 40. It was actually all with the same buddy. So now I'm wondering if the. The causation there was actually the friend that I was with all these times. But I think, like, you have to give kids some measure of independence because you can't train independence while not allowing them to be independent. Like, that doesn't. That doesn't work, right? Like, then it's just this net. Like, it's just. It's just theory then, like, that you should, you know, think for yourself and make your own decisions. Except I'm still going to make every single decision for you. Like, you have to be able to create environments where they can make their own decisions that also are going to have consequences occasionally. Obviously. Again, caveat. I'm not at that stage in parenting yet. I'm sure much easier said than done. But one thing that I really appreciate about my, my own parents was that, yeah, they did give me the freedom to make mistakes. And I think you need that freedom to make mistakes, otherwise you are not going to possibly become independent. I also think to your other point of, like, there's a different. Like, you can be just as a, as a man, because I cannot speak for the female perspective, but as a man, it's like you can think yourself fairly independent. And, you know, you can be independent, right? You can be taking care of yourself. You can be living on your own you can be not in any way financially supported by anyone else taking care of yourself. But there's a different, different switch that flips that is completely different once you have kids, like, even more so than once you get married. It's like getting married is one thing, but even if neither, you know, if you guys don't have kids yet, it's like, okay, yeah, we can still, like, we can still fuck around, right? Like there, you know, we can. We can go out and get, you know, way too drunk at the bar and whatever else, and it doesn't, you know, whatever. It doesn't matter. Like, we're only accountable to ourselves in our hangover. Being accountable to somebody else, to a little helpless human being that you brought into this world. I think that, like, flips something in your brain that you can never turn off. And there's no way. The same way that you can't teach independence. You have to give it. I think you can't teach that accountability to another human being. You have to, you know, it has to be created. Like. And then, I mean, some people are obviously not great parents and maybe don't feel that switch flip. But I think for you and me and the vast majority of people, the switch flips, it never goes back, and you are forever changed for the better, I think, because there is no kind of responsibility, speaking for myself and probably for you, no kind of responsibility. Like, there's a little human being here that can't take care of itself. And they need their parents, they need us, and there's no shying away from that. So I don't know if that answers the question, but that's kind of where I'm at.

A (89:25)

Yeah, I think two primary reflections. One is maybe you don't think about it as, like, there's one thing, thing that symbolizes from boy to man. I think I kind of want that. I want a challenge. I think I keep thinking about that, have time for that. The second thing that I thought about is that I'm reflecting on my own childhood a little bit. And I think I for sure took my parents for granted in the moment. I for sure took my parents for granted even in the 20s, in my 20s and early 30s, when I realized that I started to learn more about the world. Oh, I did have good parents. Oh, I am lucky now after raising a kid, hopefully more soon, I'm realizing that my parents did so much for me that I still couldn't have appreciated until I. Until their grandparents and so shout out mom and dad. But one of those points was independence. Versus responsibility. I always wanted more. I always thought I was ready. And my dad's like, yeah, you want more freedoms. Let's see the responsibility. Remember when I told you to do this and you didn't do it? Remember this? Remember that? Remember that? That's how you get more. And so, yeah, the push and pull between those two and gradually lengthen the leash. That's. That's amazing. The other thing around parenting, make you a better person. And I saw you wanted to jump in there, so I'll make this one.

B (90:44)

I was just going to say quickly. American. American Hodl. Hodl. However he identifies, he said something really great in one of our last conversations. He was like, I've, like, I firmly believe that a boy doesn't become a man until he. Until he has kids. Like in. Until he has a wife and they make a baby together. You are not a man until that. You are still a boy.

A (91:06)

I agree.

B (91:07)

Honestly, I'm on the same page with that. It's like, that is a fundamental shift. And you can think that you're a man or whatever if you don't have kids, and that's fine. But, like, for anyone who has gone through that, I think anybody who has gone through that and had, you know, had kids is now responsible for a little, you know, a little human creature. They would probably agree with that sentiment from American Hodl. Hodl. So just wanted to throw that in there before I. Before I forgot it, because I thought that was just like, yeah, that's. If you need a demarcation, that's pretty much it. Like, that's probably as firm a line as you could get.

A (91:40)

Yep. I completely agree. It's true in my life. It's true with people that I observe. I would like to believe that theoretically, you can simulate that same step, function, increase in responsibility and have similar outcomes. But if I'm being honest with myself, that's me just hedging because people get super triggered by this. I think it's absolutely true. And it's not because you're superior as a parent. And I feel for the people who want kids and can't have them. Like, honestly, there's nothing worse than I can possibly imagine. So I feel for that. And so what. But what I. Why I do believe it's true is maybe. Maybe we'll separate you become a man. I think that triggers people, too, but I think it's like the most human experience you can possibly have. It is the peak of what the f. We're supposed to be doing here. Maybe we can call it that instead of the man, because I'm a man, I went to war. Right, Fair enough. But raising kids, it's embedded in our biology. I lean to biology a lot. I think it's. I think we're underappreciating our biology today as a 20, 25 species. And we're over appreciating our. Our. Our neofrontal cortex, the part of our brain that thinks, and it's complex. And it's also no coincidence that our brain thinks. Our brain is a really cool feature. Right?

B (93:00)

Like typical brain behavior.

A (93:03)

Exactly. Our body is more intelligent than our brain. It's older than our brain. Trust your gut. You said that earlier. That's absolutely true. That's not like a little thing like literally trust your gut. Your gut knows, your body knows. And so I think. Where was I going with that? Oh, if you don't reproduce, okay, our whole biological process, everything is forged around reproducing so your genes go forward. You hear about women having a biological clock, okay, fine, that's a biological process happening. But what are you getting? You're getting warning signs that your fertility will go down in the future, and it makes you feel like shit. Why? So you reproduce, so your genes go on. And so if you. If you voluntarily end your bloodline, I think that's a tremendous mistake in 99.9% of cases. And you're going to pay for it. For your entire life in this void of meaning and purpose, maybe it will be a big thing for you. Maybe it'll be a small thing. Maybe you'll drown it with alcohol and sports cars. Maybe you'll be a monk. Maybe there's other things that are close, or it may be superior. I don't buy it. But maybe. But for those of you who are willing and able and capable but haven't made the plunge, I would say lean into your biology and you will be rewarded. In my personal life, I went from a fear of loss. In the future, I'm going to have less freedom. And I'm mourning it before I even lost it. As the child's on its way, right? Then a child comes, priorities start to reorder naturally, subconsciously, without my doing. And all of a sudden, the things I thought I would lose, that I was about to lose, I don't feel like I lost them because I don't want them anymore, right? And all of a sudden the transition is so much easier. And then I'm gobsmacked by the fact that, okay, Brandon, you weren't even trusting your biology again. You Preached trust your biology, and you didn't do it. Of course your biology rewards you and gracefully allows you to transition because that's the most effective way for our species. So again, lean into the biology. The second point before we talked about you're not a man unless you have a baby, is your kid worships you. Okay? There's nothing more powerful to me to become a better man than a little two year old who does everything I do and worships me. That means how do I communicate with my wife when I'm stressed out? Do I want him to observe that kind of snarky comment? Do I want my, my kid to observe someone who's lazy, who doesn't fix things, who doesn't take responsibility, who. Whatever. I'm just coming up with personal examples. But that makes you want to be a better person because he wears whatever I, whatever, whatever I'm doing, he tries on that day. And it's, he's learning how to be a human, how to be an adult from me and my wife and those around us. And what a responsibility that is and what a beautiful thing. Right? I forgot the exact phrase. But like, having a kid is not about making a baby, it's about making a mother and making a father. Right? So the kid gave us that gift. And I do believe it is a gift. And what, yeah, it's a virtuous cycle. And one more on parenting is that I intellectually thought I was like, yeah, family's awesome. I like it. Oh, family. It was all intellectual. It was all bullshit. Having a little kid and watching your mom raise a little her grandson and then all the feelings for you and the love and she didn't know what the f she was doing when she raised me. And now she's got the wisdom and she, you know, I'm kid's not that different than me. And watching her go through that, watching my parents become healthier, knowing that they have this purpose to do and what a beautiful thing. And then I get so sad with the boomers who don't want to spend time with their grandkids because they're on a cruise, or they don't want to spend time with their grandkids because they're doing some stupid hobby. My goodness, we are backwards. Their role in society is to be elders with wisdom for us and for the next generation. And, and it's amazing how responsive the kids are to their grandparents and how special that relationship is. And I wish more families did that. And I wish I had more time with my parents as well for this Exact same reason now.

B (97:32)

Sorry, I Frog in the throat there.

A (97:38)

It's okay if you're getting emotional. You want it?

B (97:40)

Apparently choking on water. No, I was just gonna say it is amazing seeing the grandparents and then realizing, too. It's like that was one of the other big realizations where I was like, man, oh, I was kind of a at times as a kid to my parents and, like, because I see myself and I'm like, I'm just trying to do the best I can. And then seeing them, it's like they were just trying to do the best they could. And everyone is always just trying to do the best that they, that they can. Being a parent again, some situations where there. That is not the case, but the overwhelming majority, and it's like, man, I, I should have cut them some more slack, but at least now they have a grandkid who is not a yet, and, and that can hopefully make up for some of it. But, man, it's a, it, it's a, it's a, it's a wild trip. It's a, it's a beautiful journey, though, you know, like, I, I, I wouldn't trade it for anything. Despite the fact that at times it is difficult. It's like that's what makes it worth something, you know, 100.

A (98:41)

Yeah. Days are long, years are fast, or whatever that phrase is. Feels very real. And yeah, the amount of BS I put my parents through and I wouldn't. I wasn't like a bad kid. I was just stubborn, independent, and really obsessive. So if I wanted to do something, I found a way to get it. And that served me tremendously as an adult. But I cannot imagine how annoying I was to my parents. I would play them against each other. Hey, can I sleep over at Tyler's house now? Go ask your mom. Hey, Mom. Dad and I were talking about me sleeping over at Tyler's house, and he was wondering if I should bring a red sleeping bag or a blue sleeping bag and then go back to my dad. Yeah, mom said I should bring a blue sleeping bag. And then they find out. Horrible.

B (99:24)

Yeah. And you realize, too, like, you know, we both have sons, and you're looking at him, you're like, oh, man. Like, we're, we're in for some trouble because I know how I was, and I was still, by all, you know, by all means, a good kid. But, like, doesn't make it always easy for the parents. So. To all the, to all the parents out there, thank you, guys. We appreciate you now more than ever. And, but at least, at least we're giving you grandbabies, right? So hey, can't be too mad at us for being shitheads all those years ago. So it evens out.

A (99:55)

Maybe one more grenade to the voluntary. No parent people, just think back to your great great great, great great great great great great great great great great grandmother. She had to survive that one harsh winter where they didn't have any food and barely made it. Maybe, maybe some Vikings came and came through the village. Maybe there was some rape involved, maybe some light pillaging, I don't know. What about the time when the woolly mammoths population declined and you couldn't get food? Remember the time when all the infectious disease came and wiped out 80% of the tribe and somehow your genetics came through that bottleneck and you're like, well, it seems kind of a lot of work and I like going to the bar and watching football and huh. I like traveling, so I'm going to just voluntarily end my bloodline madness.

B (100:51)

It is wild. I will say as a caveat, I think there are some people that are genuinely at peace with like, like, not everybody needs to have kids or should have kids. Like, I'm playing devil's advocate here because I know there are people out there and like, I, I know people like this that are, it's not. They're like going out and, and partying and maybe there were some circumstances that led to a place where like, you know what, kids just like, weren't going to happen. Maybe that was biological. Maybe that was another reason. But like, and, and that's okay too. And I think you're not speaking to those people. I think you're speaking to the ones that are very much making the, the decision to say, like, well, this, you know, yeah, I'd like kids maybe, but this is just like, you know, kind of too hard. And I've got a good thing going right now and I don't want to mess it up. Right. Is that a fair characterization?

A (101:36)

To be honest, I'm speaking to myself five, 10 years. That's the archetype. That's, that's where the passion comes from. It's because I started later than I would have liked to as what I know now. And I think that I had really bad reasons for taking my position of like, yeah, well, maybe sort of later I'll do that. I don't know. And so that's what I'm speaking to. Of course, humans are extremely diverse. There's many reasons, many types of people, blah, blah, blah. Like, yes, we don't need to worry about the people is obviously not aimed at. Yeah, aimed at Dieter Bob though, for sure, because he's really annoying on Twitter about this.

B (102:18)

But seriously, I can't remember if I muted him or not. I don't like to block anyone because I think that gives somebody too much credit. But the mute is a great button because it's like, eh, don't even see it. Don't even know it exists. It's like that scene from Mad Men where, you know, he's like, and I feel really sorry for you. And he's like, I don't think about you at all.

A (102:38)

Like, it's meme once a week at least.

B (102:42)

Dude. Same, same.

A (102:43)

Oh, wait.

B (102:44)

Speaking. Speaking of memes and just cultural moments. Quick, before we wrap up, should we just talk about Trump trying to buy everything right now? What is your take? Is he actually serious about Greenland and Canada and Mexico, or is this just like Trump doing his Trump thing where he's like, I'm just going to say super outrageous stuff. I'm going to take over the news cycle with it. I'm going to let people freak out and then I'm going to kind of drop back and say, like, well, you know, I don't want it anyway. Like, actually, Greenland's not as green as I thought, so I think I'll. I think I'll pass. Like, what's your take on this?

A (103:16)

Yeah, a couple angles. So one, I believe that this is his. I'm not paying attention too much. I'm not thinking about this strategically. I'm not Matt Pines in this. Okay. This is me scrolling on the toilet.

B (103:29)

And immediately none of us can Matt Pines it.

A (103:31)

He's so true.

B (103:32)

He's in a different league.

A (103:34)

Also true. So this is my like 50 foot view. Not trying that hard. So I think he's negotiating. He's planning to rethink about geopolitics. I think he's essentially anchoring, to use a sales term, he's anchoring to an extreme in order to disarm and bring someone to the table and maybe he settles for a little bit less or whatever. So I think it's opening salvo, negotiation tactics. That's one angle. The other angle is that him stylistically and what he's saying triggers the libs to use a phrase so hard and it makes me laugh so much. He is an absolute master shitposter. He is S. Tier. God tier shitposter. I don't think there's anyone ever that would be as good as him. And I find it to be so funny. You do have to distance yourself. Like, he's not going on a rampage and stealing countries and blah, blah, blah. Like, he's not going to do that. Look at history. It's not how he operates. But he does flagrantly say stuff. Expand the Overton window. And he actually does make relatively good deals. So I'm in on it and I gotta pull out one quote, forget the politics of this. But he's. He's, like, mad at Newsom and he's, like, taking shots at Newsom over the fires. And in the middle of his rant, he just sidebars and goes, he wanted to protect an essentially worthless fish called a smelt by giving it less water. It didn't work. So just, I die. I cannot help it. He just has to take pot shots at the smelt and there's this unlimited examples. Greenland. Yeah, it's not actually that green.

B (105:15)

I think he's going to go down as one of the great comedians or comics of our generation. Dude has incredible timing. Every time he's up on stage, I'm like, this is a bit. You're doing a bit. I see this and it's like, what does he say? It's the weave. I'm doing the weave. I don't know. I find it hilarious. And I think we all need reasons to laugh as well. So if there's any triggered libs out there who find the idea of Donald Trump buying Greenland to be too hard to deal with, just take a step back and a deep breath and maybe just laugh a little bit.

A (105:54)

Yeah, Maybe take a cruise through the Gulf of America and just decompress a little bit.

B (106:01)

Gulf of.

A (106:02)

That one's so beautiful because it's so petty and pointless and it's just.

B (106:07)

Oh, God, it is. It really is amazing. Okay, okay. We've been. We've been rolling, man. Time flies. Hour. Hour 45 before we. Before we close out. Anything else you want to leave with, I'll. I'll link you on. I'll link your X and your noster and I can link your website as well. Anywhere else you want to send people, or anywhere else. Or anything else you want to leave people with, perhaps.

A (106:32)

Yeah, I would say to leave people with. So, in my view, we have actually a very unique moment in time here. I think that Trump comes in, the administration, the history leading up to this, a whole bunch of things that were improbable had to go right in order to produce the moment we're in now. So I think we should be as a group, no matter where your politics are. I think we should take this moment very seriously and fight for what we believe in. I do think the next, call it decade is going to define the next hundred years. And so the stakes are high. Pay attention, do your best, like get involved. Really, really get after it. That's point one. Point two is that take the white pill for Christ. Be optimistic. We have a lot to be optimistic about. Do not let whatever your Twitter feed shows you rattle you. Do not let it affect your day. Look around you. Build your friends, your family, your community. Get married, have kids. Do the things that are tried and true ways to have a fulfilling life. Get your hands dirty, touch the grass, whatever. Like truly lean into your local life and what happens? Your anxiety goes away. Do the health fundamentals. Okay, your body feels good, you have more energy. Absolutely. White pill, do that. It doesn't mean be like blind to the pain in the world. It means like take it in perspective and realize that if it's not in my actual reality, it is a lower priority. Okay? People blowing up in the Middle east is horrible, but it does not affect me the same way that something happens in my family. Okay? So rationally prioritize. That's probably my two main points. Yeah. Take the moment seriously. Do the fundamentals of health come back to the local environment. Don't let the Internet stress you out. And then, yeah, more. I mean come say hi on Twitter for the angry, voluntary, no parent people. I expect the hate. Bring it on. Just kidding. But seriously, what else? Yep, I'm at Swan. Been at Swan for five years. You want to buy some Bitcoin? Swan.com youm can buy a new retirement account, you can get a financial advisor type. If you're more high net worth and you want more concierge service, you can get the app, you can buy it online. We got a lot of big things coming this year if you want to stack sats and not spend your dollars. We have a credit card coming out in a couple months, so swan.com card and you can sign up for the credit card. So no more airline miles. Get SATs back in your Swan account. That's going to be a no brainer way to stack sats. I sadly use BlockFi's card. Gritted my teeth to use that in the moment. I loved it. I absolutely loved it. They went out. So see you later. Yeah, brandingquitam.com has all my essays. Really enjoyed the chat here and yeah, me too man.

B (109:33)

If you had talked about Swan any longer though, I would have had to charge you for it. But this time I'll. I'll let. I'll let this one slide. We'll. We'll call this. We'll call this a freebie, but next time it's gonna. It's gonna have to cost you some SATs, man. There's nothing I can do. It's the free market, you know, what can I say?

A (109:48)

That's right. Oh, one more, actually. Oh, Minneapolis meetup. We have the best meetup location in the country. We have one of the best meetup groups. 300 plus members. We get a hundred there a month. Great speakers, blah, blah, blah. Walker's on the invite list for a while. I've been ghosting. I need to make it. I'm going to make it publicly put it out there, so it's hard. A little. A little shame. A little shame on Doc. That's all I'm saying.

B (110:12)

I would have done the same thing. No, I'm actually, I've been wanting to get to that meetup for a while. We're gonna try to make that happen because you guys have built a pretty, pretty cool little toxic psychopathic community over there.

A (110:26)

Extremely.

B (110:27)

Even if it is in Minnesota. You know, we'll let that part slide.

A (110:31)

Let'S say it in the Midwest for a lot of reasons.

B (110:33)

Well, I don't know if it can really top Wisconsin, but. No, if we, if we, if we start down this path, we'll need to go for another hour. We, we don't, we don't need to get talking about whose lakes are superior or anything like that, or which one has a richer drinking culture or anything like that. Or better cheese. We'll save that, Save that for another day. But seriously appreciate you sharing your time and your knowledge today. This was a great time catching up and looking forward to doing it again soon.

A (111:03)

Likewise. Much appreciation, man. Time flew. Great chat. Happy anytime. And congrats on the little one. He's so smiley. It honestly brightens my day when I see his little smile. So well done over there.

B (111:17)

Well, right back at you. And yeah, to those, to the Dieter Bobs out there, the smile of your child will be worth so much more than your snarky posts on Twitter ever could be. And with that, we close. And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin Podcast. If you are a bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring the Bitcoin podcast, head to bitcoin podcast.net sponsor or send an email to hello at Bitcoin Podcast. If you are enjoying the Bitcoin Podcast and find it valuable. Give it a boost on Fountain a five star review wherever you're listening. Or better yet, share this show with your network so more people can learn about bitcoin. Or don't. Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it. You can grab links in the show notes to watch or list this show wherever you get your podcasts. Or go to bitcoin podcast.net podcast and you'll also find the link links to follow me and the show on Noster and on X. Bitcoin is scarce. There will only ever be 21 million, but Bitcoin podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.