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THE Bitcoin Podcast
The Great Bitcoin Awakening | American Hodl & Erik Cason (THE Bitcoin Podcast)
01:58:17
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- [00:00]
Eric Cason
To me, it's very clear that everybody now has to go through the logical concourse of understanding that like, bitcoin's the premier and final asset that you want and like that destroys the dollar unequivocally. Like, you won't be able to make people hold on to dollars any longer without that fundamentally getting backed by Bitcoin directly. Like, it doesn't matter if there's a strategic reserve if it's not pegged to the dollar. Like people will be smart enough to figure out, oh, the US government's literally holding Bitcoin because they don't believe in their own fucking currency. So I need Bitcoin much wealth.
- [00:33]
American Hodl
How much value was destroyed by fiat currency and how much of that value could have been compounded into the future. We're supposed to be the inheritors of that wealth, but we were basically stiffed. And so it was kind of up to us to look around and say, well, how do we fix it? Like the blockchain of humanity through an error. And that doesn't happen in every generation. In fact, you know, you can go on for many generations without ever getting an error. But fiat is an error. And we had to look, take a good hard look around and say, how can we fix that so that we can kickstart the engine of global capitalism, so that we can push value into the future rather than extracting value from the future in order to live for today.
- [01:09]
Eric Cason
The fixed supply of Bitcoin and how this operates, like it has nothing to do with humans and like our, our little fucking monkey brains that like can't understand the markets well enough. Like that's the thing that panics and sells and shit. And that's why Bitcoin will continue to gain in the way it will us. Getting up to like a 2 million. Bitcoin is not like a new cycle. Like this is just Bitcoin doing what it is normally done in its general four year cycles. And so when that happens, like people are going to really freak out and think that there's something different going on and it's not. And furthermore, Bitcoin will continue to match the same fucking trajectory it has done. And again, because like, it has nothing to do with people. Like the way that that market operates is because we, we know and understand how the happening works. We know and understand how the block, like how each new block gets produced. And that has nothing to do with our tiny little fucking ape minds.
- [02:04]
American Hodl
Bitcoin is true. That's why people are organizing themselves around it. It really is pretty much that simple.
- [02:08]
Eric Cason
The big difference between today and four years ago is that, like, it's now clear bitcoin is not going away. It is clear that nation states are going to start battling each other to figure out how the fuck do they figure out this new system. And it's not to say that, like, it won't necessarily get captured, but like, in terms of it being an asset, it is not going anywhere. And that's really fucking important.
- [02:28]
American Hodl
Let's get this through our. Let's get this through our heads, liberals, okay? Humanity, human flourishing, is dependent on increasing energy usage. Pretty simple. Just let's get that one in there, let's put that in the head and, and let's remember it, okay? Stop trying to fucking kill all the people on the planet, you Malthusian piece of shit.
- [02:58]
Walker
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs. My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast. The bitcoin time chain is 880148 and the value of one bitcoin is still one bitcoin. Today's episode is a rip with Eric Cason and American Hodlhodl. We did one of these episodes a while back and everyone really enjoyed it, including us. So when I thought about who I should talk to on this auspicious inauguration day, I of course thought of these two dudes. I love and respect the hell out of these guys and they are the perfect people to help break down everything going on right now. By the way, this conversation was streamed live on Nostr, which is the only place you can watch the Bitcoin podcast live. So if you want to do that in the future, head over to primal.netwalker and primal.net and if you're not on Noster yet, what the heck are you doing? Before we dive in, do me a favor and subscribe to the Bitcoin podcast wherever you're listening. And make sure to subscribe on YouTube or rumble as well by searching Walker America. Head to the Show Notes to grab discount links for my sponsor Bitbox. Or go to Bitbox Swiss Walker and use promo code Walker. Send an email to helloitcoinpodcast.net if you have feedback or if you're interested in sponsoring the Bitcoin podcast. And if you find this show valuable hit, consider giving value back by giving it a zap on Noster or a boost on Fountain. Without further ado, let's get into this bitcoin talk with Eric Cason and American Hodl.
- [04:37]
Eric Cason
Kason.
- [04:37]
Walker
How did you actually get like, how did you get your machine Back up and running.
- [04:42]
Eric Cason
This is my. This is my second machine. So, like, this is my travel machine that I'm on that I put in front of where my normal machine goes. But, yeah, so anybody who's like, why did they start on time? First of all, fuck you. I, like, I don't have to show up here if I don't want to. Second of all, you really don't. My machine shit the bed. My machine shit the bed.
- [05:00]
Walker
Reasonable excuses. All right, we are.
- [05:04]
American Hodl
I always want to show up for bitcoin podcast, but I'm like, in the back of my mind, I'm like, but if I don't, like.
- [05:13]
Eric Cason
It'S like a whole fucked up life, though. You know, there's part of me that's like, oh, I got to do all this stuff and I have all these obligations and. And then in the back of my mind, it's like, no. Like, you literally could just do nothing for the rest of your life and that would be fine. Then there's other part of me that's like, no. Like, there's this opportunity to change humanity and the destiny of human history, and, like, I got to do my part. And there's another part that's like, or you could just go outside and like, me have an apple.
- [05:43]
American Hodl
Me and Eric were in. Me and Eric were in an Uber in Miami, and we were on our way to interview a senator who's now the Director of National Intelligence, which is weird.
- [05:52]
Eric Cason
And we were a little weird, a.
- [05:54]
American Hodl
Little drunk when we went there.
- [05:56]
Eric Cason
And.
- [05:57]
American Hodl
And we were talking in the car about, like, going to bitcoin conferences and whatever, and we were like. Both of us were expressing this. This thought of, like, why is it still us? Why can't it be some other dude? Why is it still us? Where are we? Yeah, I guess we're just called to be here. I don't know, you know?
- [06:17]
Eric Cason
Well, you know, it's pretty fucking weird.
- [06:20]
Walker
I feel a little guilty now inviting both of you guys here. I'm like, shit, here, Here. I pull them into another fucking bitcoin podcast, roping them in here with talk of inauguration day shenanigans and such.
- [06:32]
American Hodl
It's like, once you get here, it's great. It's just getting here that's always the issue.
- [06:36]
Walker
Know, it's like thinking about. It's like Walker again. Like, that guy's going to be here staring at me with those dead eyes.
- [06:42]
Eric Cason
Well, talking. Me and another friend. We're. We're talking about, like, setting up, like, a. Like, doing a bitcoin business kind of thing. And we were just talking about, like, on one hand, like, all of the things we're called to and obligated. It's kind of difficult and hard and particularly like, hodl, I think kind of where you're at in life, it's like, you know, I can just hang out and do nothing and, like, numbers going to go up forever. So, like, when I just enjoy my. My nice, sweet, sweet little life. And then, you know, for me, like, I live out in the middle of forest. Like, I just came back from the ocean with my kids, you know, beautiful day, great. You know, I was like, why. Why do I bother with any of this other shit that I keep asking myself to do? And I'm constantly in this, like, weird metronome. But the other truth is, like, when. When I'm talking with you guys, like my peoples, and I'm like, close with you, and we're like, in person and shit, it lights me up more than anything else. Like, I feel sincerely connected, that, like, I'm on purpose, that, like, this is really what life is supposed to feel like. So even though, like, for all intents and purposes, like, my life is pretty fucking epic and beautiful, there's still this nagging behind me that's like, go be with your peoples. Go. Go accomplish your purpose. Like, there is a destiny waiting for you. And it's a little haunting, to be honest with you, because, like, as great as my days will be, even at the end of those, I can be like, and I could have been with my peoples, working on my projects, pushing forward my ideals and blah, blah, blah. So it's. It's a bit of a Greek tragedy in some ways.
- [08:13]
American Hodl
I think there was a. Maybe it was. Mark Andreessen was on the Joe Rogan show, and he was talking about, like, Roman noblemen, like, attending their fish ponds. Like, they'd have these, like, estates and they would have fish ponds on them, and they would, like, spend all day, like, meticulously cultivating the fish, the perfect fish pond or river or grounds for their estate, whatever. And that, you know, at a certain point, like, you just. You have to get back and get involved in the Republic. And I think that's, like, why it's salient today is because, you know, like, in no small part, bitcoiners helped get Donald Trump elected. And we're getting, you know, we're getting politically active and politically, politically, politically motivated now because I think there is that calling from the world that says, like, I mean, when we all thought about bitcoin being inevitable, probably A lot of us thought about the game theoretic of nation state adoption. That was always a component that was going to happen at some point down the line. I think the thing that was surprising though, to me was that the guys who were doing it were all of our friends and people we knew and peers. That was really novel because in my head I was like, I'm not an adult. The adults will do that. But then 10 years passed and I became an adult and then suddenly I was one of the adults. Like, knowing the other adults, I wasn't actually doing that much myself, let's be honest. I was just shit posting. But I knew other guys and those.
- [09:39]
Walker
Guys posting really well though. Like this, like Bitcoiners shit posted their way into relevancy, though. Like, it wasn't. It wasn't just the, you know, unfuckable money. It was the massive amount of shit posting and memes like that. I feel like that had a substantial impact on, like, where everything is today. Like, you meme things into existence. Like, I think the strength of your memes, Hodl, cannot be discounted, by the way. I'm just going to have to cycle between HODL and hodl, as I remember. And I just want to, for, you know, just like, misnaming you. I just want to beg your forgiveness in advance.
- [10:12]
Eric Cason
Thank you. Just offensive, to be honest with you. It is racist, actually.
- [10:18]
American Hodl
There's only one pronunciation of Hodl, and it's Hodl.
- [10:21]
Walker
Oh, God, here we go again to get right into this. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. But I do respect that your name is pronounced Hodl. I think it's the European pronunciation, actually. I think that's what it comes down to. That might have been the confusion.
- [10:37]
Eric Cason
I can't. I can't do this racism, Walker. I gotta walk out now. This is so objectionable.
- [10:44]
Walker
Well, speaking of racism, I hear Trump is going to deport, deport everyone. And that's probably racist, right? That's.
- [10:53]
Eric Cason
I've been waiting to be deported.
- [10:54]
Walker
So is it I kidding about the racism part? What?
- [11:00]
American Hodl
It's not racist if you deport all the races?
- [11:04]
Walker
Hey, well, bingo.
- [11:07]
Eric Cason
I'm pretty sure we've hit like, full pendulum swing and like now we're actually, like, starting the swing back because, like, even, even the liberals are now being like, oh, like they set Los Angeles on fire. Like, that was intentional. You know, I'm like, it's. It's pretty interesting to like, watch them actually, like, self reflect for a minute and actually, like, laugh at themselves in self Reflection. It's kind of wild.
- [11:28]
American Hodl
Yeah.
- [11:29]
Walker
Like, to be like, oh, maybe this wasn't a great idea. Like, maybe having Venezuelan gangs in Colorado, you know, is, like, not great.
- [11:37]
Eric Cason
Like.
- [11:38]
American Hodl
Yeah.
- [11:38]
Walker
How. But who could have known? Who could have possibly foreseen negative externalities to terrible policy? It's shocking.
- [11:46]
American Hodl
I mean, I think it'll be really interesting to see. You know, like I mentioned earlier, me and Eric were having a conversation with the Director of National Intelligence. That's weird. That's weird.
- [11:59]
Eric Cason
Like, still a little high on acid, too. Yeah, you are.
- [12:05]
American Hodl
And so, like, Eric's coming down off of acid. I'm drunk. We're talking to the Director of National Intelligence.
- [12:10]
Walker
We're talking about Tulsi, right?
- [12:12]
American Hodl
Yeah, Tulsi.
- [12:13]
Walker
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [12:14]
American Hodl
And I look at, like, Tulsi Gabbard, like, Cash Patel at FBI, and, like, some of the things that they're talking about, like, Cash Patel was saying that he was. He wants to demolish or. Sorry, he wants to gut the J. Edgar Hoover Building and turn it into a museum to the deep state. That's the current FBI director who said that. That's crazy. That's fucking nuts. Now, is that gonna happen? I don't know, but, I mean, it's crazy that we have, like, new people with fresh ideas in there. And maybe. Maybe I'm hope I'm dreaming a little dream of, like, some optimism today. I'm riding the vibe wave of, like, maybe we'll get some meaningful change. Maybe. Maybe I'm just still young enough and naive enough to believe that.
- [12:56]
Eric Cason
But maybe, you know, I mean, there's like another. There's like, another reality where, like, the, like, Trump was shot in the head because he didn't turn around. In a weird fucking way like that. There's, like, another reality where that happened. And, like, so we get Harris and, like, we go, like, full communist wokeism. And there's like, you know, like, a rainbow parade of debauchery that, like, happens at the inauguration and we go in that direction. So I'm. I'm really fucking grateful about that. With that being said. Like, man like Trump launching his own shitcoin two days before. I mean, like, that. Yeah, I, like. I gotta hand it to a man like. Like this. Everyone knew he was gonna do something like that, but, like, he really raised the bar there. And what can I say? Everybody piled in. And now, like, this accelerates the agenda quite dramatically, in my opinion. Because, like, this, I think you were saying, June stuff, pointed out that, like, if you believe that the individual has the shitcoin first and, like, the nation state does too. And frankly, like, fiat is shitcoining. So, like, all of this makes sense, but also when the. When the message is finally delivered of, like, all right, fuck it. Like, anybody can issue any token for any reason at any point in time and value it at whatever they want. Well, like, now everybody just shoves their fucking hand in the cookie jar. It's just a general fucking crime. And now people actually, actually have to figure out, like, what shitcoining is comparatively, to, like, all of the other garbage that there is in the universe and actually go, oh, huh, this, like, bitcoin thing with, like, the 21 million and, like, the proof of work thingy. And like, huh, it's almost like these guys have figured it out. And if you would have just watched Walker's podcast the last time we were on and did what we fucking told you, you could have done it again, but you're too fucking stupid to do it. So we'll do this again at fucking220 and we'll revisit the same point. And most people who still wouldn't have fucking done it, like, I'm just. I'm angry at this point that so many people have came to me in my life like, like, should I buy some. Some xrp? And I'm like, yeah, if you want to. Like, it goes up and it goes down, and, like, you can make money doing that. You'll. It'll probably go down when you do it and you'll panic and sell it, but it could go up and you could make money and then you're a fucking genius. Right? We could not worry about all this and, like, look at what bitcoin is and do your little bit of homework and then you actually, like, have some savings, but you won't do that because reading's hard and there's, like, big words that intimidate you and upset you. And instead of you, like, looking that up with Google, you just go, oh, I don't know what to do. I'm gonna go listen to what that on MSNBC tells me to buy. And I'm sorry, I'm just, like, angry about at this point in time because, like, you have a mind and, like, you can think, and, like, other people telling you stuff isn't thinking. Like, that's something else. It's the same way like, when. When, like, shit just bubbles up in your mind. Like, that's. That's not thinking. That that's like, a thought. And these things are different from each other. Oh, Sorry, that's my fucking rant for today.
- [16:07]
American Hodl
You know, I don't think I was thinking about this recently, that I don't think the average person who has no history with meditation or mindfulness or whatever understands that your thoughts are kind of like a Tinder app that you can swipe left or swipe right on. I don't think they really get that, that you can disconnect from your thoughts and that you are not your thoughts, you are the observer of your thoughts. And then you go a level deeper and you're not even the observer of your thoughts. Right? But I think the average American has no clue. And they're trying to, like, they're trying to dead reckon their way through reality by paying attention to shadows on the wall and like the Plato's Cave sense of like the mainstream media, right? And I saw this, this thing today, and it was the same picture of Michael Saylor, an article from 2022 and an article from 2025. And the headline on the 2022 article was, Michael Saylor bet big on bitcoin and lost billions or whatever. And then the 2025 article was Michael Saylor's big bet on bitcoin and how he's making billions. Same picture. They're effectively the same article with completely bipolar and opposite outcomes. And so if you're a normie trying to, you know, figure out reality by watching these shadows on the wall, you are going to just constantly be coming to the wrong conclusion at the wrong time because you'll be cycling through opposite conclusions like this. It was like masks or no masks during COVID Like, like you talk to somebody in whatever, January of COVID or February of COVID and they would have been like, well, masks. Masks actually don't do anything and you don't actually need a mask. And Covid's just like the flu. And then you would talk to that same person two months later and they would be like, you're not wearing a mask. Are you trying to kill me? You know, and it's like the media had just put this idea in their head and they just believed it. Whole clock. I don't, I don't understand it personally, but it seems to be comforting to a lot of people to do what the television tells them to do or their function.
- [18:08]
Walker
It's easier than thinking for yourself, right? Like that's, that's what it comes down to is like convenience. No, go ahead, Jason.
- [18:15]
Eric Cason
I was just gonna say it's funny because like, like my partner was like eight months pregnant when Covid hit So I was like keyed up and like we're like wearing the mask in the grocery store in January when nobody else was. And like people would give you like the weird looks and, and then like in like a two week time frame, everybody else had their mask on. And that's when I was like, whoa, hang on. Like, what the is going on? Like, I need to, I need to like look into this a little bit more. And it was just, it. I don't know, like I, I'm again with like the cycling between this like nihilism and hope. Being hopeful. Like the, the nihilistic part is, is like I'm just like really disturbed at how like how many of these conversations I've had with people about bitcoin and like how like rudimentary stupid their outlook is and like that the complete incapacity they have to assemble an original thought and it's just, it's fucking disturbing to me. And like, to be fair, this is usually from the older generation who like, I'm of the opinion the indoctrination and propaganda that they've gone through is just so deep and infectious that like, it, it's like gangrenous rot in their brain at this point. Like there's no way to get it out. And so like, I don't know what to do. And it's, it's really frustrating because at the same time, you know, like the way that we mean this from you know, just being like nerd Internet drug money into like actually being like a world class asset that that's going to defeat female got money. Like, I, I don't know, I, I just, I'm, I'm realizing that like, it actually does come down to us. And I'm kind of pissed off about that because like, I didn't sign up for this and I'm like really angry that the, the actual adults in the room turn out like aren't adults at all and are actually like whiny little crybabies that are spineless and insepid little thieves. And that's really upsetting to learn how true that is all the way through. So I'm pretty mad about that and I hope that we'll actually do something. The other nice thing is like, with this whole Trump thing, like we absolutely cozied up to the establishment, like made an alliance with them that, that's been really meaningful and powerful. But I hope like, as this goes on we'll be like, oh, like these retards like help get us in. And like now it's Time to like night of a long knife these motherfuckers and like move on.
- [20:37]
American Hodl
No, I think it's like the Republicans can't listen. I mean the communists had to be defeated. That was like step one. Like we have to rid ourselves of that because that is like we are so close to the precipice of destruction there, right? And now it's back to the regular graft of the American republic. And the Republicans will remind you so quickly how much they love being used car salesmen, grifters. And they're like, buy Trump coin, buy Melania coin, Buy Baron coin, buy Eric Jr coin, buy Tiffany Trump coin, buy. Right? It's just all the coins and they're like, what do you mean? What could be wrong with this? At least they do it out in the open where they're like, yeah, coin and who's not shit going in, right?
- [21:20]
Walker
It's the American dream, baby.
- [21:21]
American Hodl
The liberals are smart enough to hide their, their, their theft. The Republicans, like it's great, I do.
- [21:29]
Eric Cason
But like that's not even smart at this point in time. Like that. That just goes to show how much more disgusting fucking criminals like the fact that Elizabeth Warren has the audacity to talk about like the financial crimes of crypto and well, she's literally being paid off by the banks and she got an office by playing this whole thing that like, I'm the one that'll stand up to the big banks. Like it's, it's so fucking gross. And then the fact that liberals actually mouth that piece with it, it's just like, look guys, like I get you want like warm fuzzy values that feel really fucking nice. But like the complete lack of thinking any of this through is just really disgusting. And like that's the place that I align a lot with liberals on a lot of the ideals and hopes that they want. I totally diverge from them and realizing how much that's a pipe dream fantasy that doesn't actually work in reality. It's the same reason why like I was a socialist when I was young and I realized like I was just naive and like as much. Cuz like I just really felt like if we just elect the right people, it'll, it'll happen. And it's like the system's designed to fucking corrupt you. Like that's how it works, man. And as much as I really want everybody to be equal all the time and get all the fun stuff and all of us to have equal rights, like, that's just, that's just not how it works. There are some people that are fucking stupid and make really bad decisions with their life. I, like, I shouldn't bail those people out. I'm sorry. That's just what that comes down to.
- [22:59]
American Hodl
It's, it's.
- [23:00]
Walker
The majority of people are, are, are like pretty dumb. Like on a relative basis I believe intelligence probably follows Fibonacci. Like and like the 8020 is just like a rounding of Fibonacci, right? Like it's like 79. Like it's 21, you know, instead of 20. But like I think it's probably safe to say that there's like at a maximum 21% of people, I'm saying at a, that's like a hard maximum, like very generous, that are like high agency people. Like, like, I'm not saying ultra high, but like pretty high agency. Like not a complete NPC, but I think like that other, you know, 79% is like, like just does not actually necessarily. I'm not saying they're bad people or that they're like complete morons, but like a lot of it comes down to agency. Like do you have the actual drive to make your own decisions and to realize that like if you're being spoon fed something that's not your idea just because you could to what you were saying earlier, Casey, just because you can like repeat something that you saw, like that, that's, that's not actually a thought. Like that's not thinking that's just literally regurgitating. You are, you are a parrot. Like you are literally a parrot.
- [24:06]
Eric Cason
Yeah, well this shit all comorbates with a bunch of other stuff too. And so like like you get punished for having agency. You get like, you get punished for thinking originally. You get punished for trying things that don't work. And so like all of this co morbates in a way that like it's not just about thinking, but it's like the, the risk and the fear of social rejection and all the shit that goes into that. Sorry, you go ahead.
- [24:28]
American Hodl
Oh no, no, I totally agree with what you're saying and I think that basically like that, that belief in agency that Walker was talking about is probably the number one defining characteristic of people who are normies or who are are not normies. So if you are a air quotes normie, you're in the 80% of people that basically don't believe that human agency is the driver that moves the world. And if you're a non normie, you're a person who's high agency or who at least believes in high agency. Who believes that human action is the thing that drives the world, right? There's this thing about, like bitcoin that, you know, we say bitcoin's inevitable and people think that just means, like, there's some ephemeral concept of like there's a, you know, destiny to the universe or something. No, it's inevitable because human action causes it to be inevitable, because humans go to work for the benefit of the bitcoin system rather than attempting to attack the bitcoin system. So it's game theoretically perfect in that way. That's why it's inevitable, because we all get off our ass and we go to work for bitcoin. And every order of magnitude that bitcoin increases in price, it unlocks a new wave of people that go to work for it, right? So I think that, like, if you don't have a belief in your own agency, then you're going to be more susceptible to listening to the thoughts, prescriptions, ideas, rules, mores, whatever of others who seem sort of vaguely authoritative. Whereas if you do believe you have high agency, you go, why the fuck would I let that guy tell me what to do when I can do my own shit? You know? It's that simple.
- [25:59]
Walker
It honestly blows my mind that there are bitcoiners out there who are not on Nostr yet. Seriously, what are you doing? Just like you shouldn't need to ask permission to use your money, you shouldn't need to ask permission to speak freely, but that is exactly what you are doing if you are still stuck on centralized social media platforms. On Nostr, you can't be censored, you can't be banned, and you can't be deboosted for saying words Elon Musk doesn't like. Plus the vibes are just better. And there's nowhere else you can end up having a casual conversation with the likes of Jack Dorsey or Lynn Alden. Noster also has bitco payments built in. So when you post a meme, a hot take, or a photo of your steak, people will zap you bitcoin to show you they like it and value what you posted. You can find me on Nostr by going to primal.netwalker and you can check out this podcast on Nostr@primal.net Titcoin. Primal also has a built in bitcoin wallet so you can literally get zapped by people for your posts. Then use those sats to, I don't know, buy a coffee and do it all from the same app. Search for Primal in the app store, go to primal.net or check out any of the hundreds of other NOSTR apps out there. You can freely switch between them all whenever you want. So come join the largest bitcoin circular community in the world and start zapping sats on nostr.
- [27:27]
Eric Cason
Well, and like, I'll loop this back around the opposite direction. Like, that in and of itself, like, is a destiny because like, you recognize amongst all of the NPCs out there that can't like figure out the world that are like low self agency people, there are actually other like awakened individuals that like have an inner worldly concept and a drive and meaning and purpose in the world. And that through connecting with them and understanding what bitcoin is, that's like this fusion mechanism that like actually does bring about a destiny for like, this thing should be successful because the game theoretics behind it and like this goes all the way down to like war theory itself of that, like, bitcoin is literally a game that I can prove to you that I can economically outperform you even if you're using a violent system that's designed to extract through that violence. And because we have this like global collectivized system that needs energy for like a high industry computational society that like has general AI and shit, bitcoin is actually fundamentally superior to like your warmongering violent society that wants to extract through fiat money and other things. And ergo, now we have all these insane bitcoiners that one of the wildest experiences of the last two years for me is I had a hypothesis. I was like, bitcoin is this actual spiritual thing that's awakening people in this really radicalized way. And I'm going to travel all over the world and just talk to people and just be like, hi, I'm Eric. Let's immediately dive into. Do you think bitcoin is a spiritual tool of awakening? And like I had dozens, if not hundreds of people go, yeah, like I had this really radical moment of understanding and getting that like this realigns human incentives for everybody everywhere. And then like, I changed my life and I just like dove in and committed and like now gave me all these rewards and stuff. And I'm like doing all this I never expected in my life. And it's wild and like, that's why I'm here. It's for like that thing. And it's hilarious because like, that's about like discovering value, right? Is that like, it turns out like you valuing your time and your ability to save for yourself, like, is the most valuable Thing that there is and haha, turns out like that's actually like a monetary object as well.
- [29:44]
American Hodl
This, this sounds crazy to non cult members, but we're amongst friends so I'll just say it.
- [29:48]
Walker
I was just gonna say this sounds an awful lot like a cult. Yeah, no, it's like a good culture.
- [29:54]
American Hodl
In some like non trivial sense. I think that like when I touched bitcoin, I accidentally killed the old me. And now I'm a different person. I don't relate to the old me at all. I don't, I don't relate like 10 years ago when I, before I got into bitcoin, I just don't relate to the way I thought and felt about the world. And yeah, things happened in that time and I grew and matured and you know, had children, became a father. That was impactful, etc. But to be honest, it was the bitcoin thing that really like reoriented my perspective in a way that almost nothing else did.
- [30:29]
Eric Cason
You know, I'm still deeply haunted by like a lot of my like pre bitcoin self. It's like a weird fucked up, I don't know, provincial thing for me and I'm like walking my path but like each part of it's like fucked up and weird and wild and like I'm totally here for it. But it's. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. And like it's, it's. It's hard to tell my whole story directly to people and like not feel like I'm being a fucking crazy person.
- [31:02]
Walker
You know, I was just thinking like it and it's one of those like kind of cliched things, but I genuinely believe this. Like as much as there are things in my past, like if I look back, I'm like, well yeah, that was fucking stupid. Like oh, you know, wish I wouldn't have done that. I wish I wouldn't have done this. If I could go back, I don't think I would change those things. Like even though I like Hodl, I feel the same way. Hodl. Excuse me, I'm sorry again, but because like that did bring me here to where I am today. Like all of those fuck ups and all of that stupid stuff. And that person who like you said Hodlike, it's difficult to even recognize that that was the same person just because of the transformation that you've had. It's like well that you know, that rebirth, like you know, the. The phoenix doesn't rise from the ashes until it burns down to nothing, right? So like you, I Think you. You almost need that. I mean, maybe that, like, part of that is like that ego death, right? Like realizing, oh, everything. Maybe not everything, but most of the things I thought that I had conviction about, I actually didn't know what the fuck I was talking about. I actually wasn't even really thinking about a lot of these things that hard. The decisions I was making, like, were they all my own? Like you. I feel like a lot of bitcoiners have gone through this where they start just, like, questioning, and again, it comes back to, like, value, right? And you start to think, huh, Like, I view value and I view time and I view my place in this. On this little rock of water, you know, in the middle of the fucking vast expanse of nothingness. I view it in a different way now. And, like, the. The thing is, like, I. I don't know. Like, there's. Of course, there's probably cases of it, but, like, most people, it seems, don't go back from that. Like, you don't somehow revert back to that prior state. Like, once you have, like, it is like an ego death. Like, you kill that off and then it's like you're kind of there. Like the. You flipped a light switch, you ripped it out of the wall, and the light's just on forever now. Like, you can't. You can't go back into the dark. Maybe some do, I don't know. But, like, from my experience with bitcoiners, that has not been the case. I don't know if you guys have. Maybe you can tell me an exception.
- [33:07]
American Hodl
That proves the rule, but, yeah, nobody ever leaves bitcoin.
- [33:12]
Eric Cason
It's funny because I was thinking earlier about the way that we've mean this into existence. At early Coinbase, most of those people went off to launch their own shitcoin projects. And we would have these intense debates in the cafeteria about the ethical, moral, and sociological consequences of, like, shitcoining and, like, what that was and, like, why bitcoin was fundamentally superior to this shit. And it was interesting because they'd, like, get up to the boundary of kind of, like, looking at that and being like, no, no, like that. Like the. There's any. Like, any of these different crypto projects could be, like, the thing that would, like, make it happen. And there's. And, like, what's. What was unique about that is, like, that was before shitcoin was even a concept. And so, like, there was still this really deep, radicalized, naive hope that, like, all of these projects could do, like, all of the shit it wanted to do. But it was, like, pretty quick that, like, it became clear that, like, it was a gigantic fucking graft and that, like, everyone was participating in it. And I remember, for me, that was when I was like, oh, shit. I was like, no. It's funny because, like, we were all talking about it one day, and I was like, so. So, like, at, like, anybody who's trading, right, like, you're. You're, like, trading back into bitcoin. Like, that's. That's the asset. No, like, huh? They're like, no, like, we, like, want dollars. And I was like, oh, like. Like, we're not on the same team, are we? Like, you. You guys have, like, a different idea of what you want to do. And they're like, yeah, like, isn't. Isn't that what we want? And I was like, oh, okay. Sorry, guys.
- [34:47]
Walker
Well, that's kind of the wild thing that I think, like, this moment that we're at right now feels like, like the. The gloves, mask, whatever. It's off now where, like, that's. If I was to pick out a bright spot of this Trump Melania coin and subsequent family member coins, I'm sure at launch, it's that it's like, they're not even calling it a coin or a token. It's just like, this is just a meme. And I'm sure that their lawyers were very clear about that. They're like, you just don't call it a token. This is not an investable asset. Like, it's just a meme that people pay for and then can trade. But it's not a token or a coin. But, like, nobody's trying to claim there's any utility here. Nobody's trying to, you know, like, my utility, like, this isn't blockchain innovation. This is just a. This is a shitcoin launched on Solana. Like, like, nobody's trying to say, like, yeah, I think, you know, I think Melania's coin is going to be the next bitcoin. It's like, no, like, this is just. It is what it is. You know, it's not. Not a great look, but, like, it's not trying to be anything that it's not. At least there's that. Like, I'm trying to find some bright spot here, because I saw this and I was just like, wow, like, what a fascinating timeline we live in where, like, and the launch of Melania, like, kind of tanking the price of the Trump coin a little bit. Like, it. I don't know, it was almost beautiful. To watch like just so much grift bottled up in this, but like in your face grift, at least not trying to be like, yeah, well, actually we think that, you know, this is a pretty innovative project which has a lot of potential utility down the road for cross border payments. And it might unseat bitcoin, actually, and it'll be used by central banks. Like, no, I mean, like, it's just a grift.
- [36:20]
Eric Cason
Like, this is incredible in my opinion of that. Like, like this is like the ICO smoke screen all over again. And like we literally have the Trojans, like pulling the horse in Detroit. Like, like, we won the war. Like, this is great. We, like, everybody can have crypto and like, it's a massive party. Everybody's getting shitface drunk. Like trading tokens. People are making tens of million dollars off of these absolutely asinine pieces of shit. And like, when all the smoke clears and everybody's hungover and totally fucked up. Like, now Odysseus comes out of the horse and now you realize like how much you guys actually fucked up. Like, this puts bitcoin front and center of everything. So fucking hardcore. Like somebody pointed out, like, now we have just like open. Anybody can print a token for anything for any reason. And even more importantly, and I think Rizzo pointed this on what bitcoin did was that everything except bitcoin has came to its inevitable conclusion of that they're not even gunning for bitcoin anymore. They're fighting amongst themselves to be the shitcoin printing chain. And that's so important for the ultimate goal that bitcoin has. And what I think is funny is that a bunch of people seem to think that there's a pathway that we get. How do I say this? Like, to me it's very clear that everybody now has to go through the logical concourse of understanding that like, bitcoin's the premier and final asset that you want. And like, that destroys the dollar unequivocally. Like, you won't be able to make people hold on to dollars any longer without that fundamentally getting backed by bitcoin directly. Like, it doesn't matter if there's a strategic reserve, if it's not pegged to the dollar. Like, people will be smart enough to figure out, oh, the US government's literally holding bitcoin because they don't believe in their own fucking currency. So I need bitcoin. And the only way they're going to prevent that is if they actually peg treasuries to the dollar, which would like, in my opinion. That's great. Like the, the bullshit of USDT and USDC coin, like that all that is is just fucking CBDC 2.0. But like, if we actually get a Treasury pegged to the dollar, that could get fucking weird.
- [38:37]
American Hodl
Mm. I, I think of it in terms of like, I call it the X, right? So there's like this X where Fiat is ascending up, or, sorry, bitcoin is ascending up one side and Fiat is descending down and there is an inflection point in the middle. And if you're in before, you know, you're writing bitcoin up, obviously going to do very well. If you're writing Fiat down and you get to the inflection point, you can still switch over and be okay. But if the inflection point cross, if you cross the inflection point and you continue to write it down so you don't make the changeover, you're going to get fucking destroyed. And I think that the interesting thing is like, when does this inflection point happen? And you could call it. I was having a little bit of a debate with Giovanni the power, one of the power law guys, and basically the power law guys believe that there's this sort of like, I don't want to put words in their mouth and misrepresent power law because I don't fully understand it. But it's a gradual transition to these much higher bitcoin prices. And I don't really believe in that. I believe in this inflection point or something that looks much more like a phase transition where you can think of it as the moment that water becomes ice. It happens. The molecules in the water are building up energy and then, boom, they rapidly become ice. And I think that the bitcoin thing is going to happen in a manner that is that quick. And so doing the work now and preparing yourself, obviously you have a tremendous advantage because when you do cross that X, when you get to that inflection point, you're going to be well advantaged to take, you know, take the opportunity and really get the most out of it. If you're on the, if you're up here on Fiat and you're writing it down, but you still have some sort of a premier asset or something, you own a company like Google or Apple, you're going to be okay. Because when you reach the X, you can say, okay, everybody start paying us in bitcoin instead of dollars. Boom, done. But the incentive, if you're low on the totem pole in terms of are you one of the losers of the fiat game? The answer is for almost everybody, the answer is yes. If you are one of the losers of the fiat game and you're, you know, you're riding the X down this way, you're just going to be an even bigger loser in the future. The only move you have available to you now is to switch sides and come to the bitcoin side and start riding bitcoin up before the inflection point happens. It's only the biggest winners in the fiat system who are going to be able to maintain and even then, only if they treat the inflection point appropriately.
- [41:12]
Eric Cason
And a bunch won't, a bunch of will ride or die fiat to absolute death. And it's gonna be, it's gonna be hilarious. So like this, that'll be fun. In my, in my opinion, like right now is the greatest opportunity there has ever been for the general losers to actually give themselves a shot. Like I, again, like, I go back to thinking about like some very close friends of mine who, you know, like a decade ago, like I implored them, I was like, like, just spend the 200 and like get a couple bitcoin. Like that'll make all the difference in the future. Just like fucking do it. And they're like, I don't know, like I could, I could get dinner tomorrow night with a couple friends for that. And it's just like, like that was, it's literally a year's salary now. And so you tell people that they're like the boat's gone, like, can't ever. No, it's not gone. And you know why? Because like the fixed supply of bitcoin and how this operates, like it has nothing to do with humans and like our little fucking monkey brains that like can't understand the markets well enough. Like, that's the thing that panics and sells and shit. And that's why bitcoin will continue to gain in the way it will. And just like Odell pointed out that like us getting up to like a 2 million, Bitcoin is not like a new cycle. Like this is just bitcoin doing what it is normally done in its general four year cycles. And so when that happens, like people are going to really freak out and think that there's something different going on and it's not. And furthermore, bitcoin will continue to match the same fucking trajectory it has done. And again, because like, it has nothing to do with people. Like the way that that market operates is because we, we know and understand how the Happening works. We know and understand how the block, like how each new block is produced. And that has nothing to do with our tiny little fucking ape minds. So I really implore you, like, and the big difference between today and four years ago is that like it's now clear bitcoin is not going away. It is clear that nation states are going to start battling each other to figure out how the fuck do they figure out this new system. And it's not to say that like it won't necessarily get captured, but like in terms of it being an asset, it is not going anywhere. And that's really fucking important.
- [43:23]
American Hodl
Even bitcoin's biggest haters believe it has tremendous value now. So like, if you offered a thousand dollars in bitcoin to somebody, there's not a person on earth who would turn you down. Like, everybody knows what bitcoin is and they know it has value. They know it's worth something. That's a big sea change from just a few years ago where if you offered somebody a thousand bucks in bitcoin, they'd be like bitcoins, fake money.
- [43:52]
Walker
It is wild though, because I think first of all, Kayson, I agree with the monkey brain thing. I still like, I feel that I, you know, I mean, I don't fucking understand bitcoin, but I try to understand bitcoin and I still like sometimes find myself falling into some like stupid fiat brain trap of. Not like, like for, like occasionally, for just a sec, I'll like kind of forget that I own this thing. That is literally beyond our comprehension in terms of what it is going to do. Like there just hasn't been anything that has ever existed like this. It is a full paradigm shift. It is like absolute scarcity and we're just, we're not programmed to be able to understand that. And it's like, even though I know that every four years the new issuance is cut in half and there's what, like, you know, 6% of the total supply left for the next 120 years that is going to be, you know, meted out in smaller and smaller chunks. And you know, if you look at the price, it's like, well, huh, like six months after every halving, things start going fucking wild. And it does it every time and then they go really wild and maybe a little bit too wild, but it's. There is no too wild. It's just the market, right? And then they crash back down a little bit, but it's still way fucking higher than it was. And it happens again and again. And it's not going to stop happening. Like this idea that like, even if you, whatever, if you subscribe to like the well, there's going to be these diminishing returns. Like that's still just all relative. Like, I mean, okay, the, you know, like the compound annual growth rate decreased by a whole 3%. It's like, like it doesn't matter. And we're still pricing things from our current. Like we haven't even begun to see the real inflation yet of the fiat system. Like, like every little bubble of hyperinflation that's like, that's just like a test case, that's a little canary letting us know what it's going to be like fucking everywhere.
- [45:41]
Eric Cason
Well, this goes back to like what Saylor said so long ago. Like all, like all your models are destroyed. Like every single model that's trying to like figure this thing out comes from this shit fiat currency based economic system where everything has a denominator that can get infinite in some way. And so like your models literally cannot accommodate for this new thing. And also like I'm constantly blown away that like every time I try to zoom out and think about how important or big or any of this stuff is, like, I can never quite get my hands all the way around how big it is. And it's funny because like, I feel like I'm probably the most sort of extreme of people in that way. And even in regards to that, like I, I still don't see how big it is. And like that's ultimately why. Like what is it? Like a cult is a failed religion, but like a religion is like a successful cult, if you will. Like that's eventually where we get to. And furthermore, like, I don't know, like, I very sincerely think like in 2050 people will be like, like people will have some general idea of how economics works, unlike us. Like it's, it's fucking mind blowing at like, I know people have PhDs in economics and like they don't even know the most rudimentary Austrian economic ideals. Which is because economics today is fundamentally a form of propaganda where they start with like these authoritarian ideals that replace the actual truth that is contained in economic ideals. It's fucking crazy.
- [47:15]
Walker
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- [48:28]
American Hodl
I was having this conversation with a friend about how basically the germination of the conversation was like, about how modern day pagans, I don't know if you've seen these guys like Bronze Age pervert or whatever on Twitter and there's a bunch of different accounts like that are like kind of claiming like, hey, fuck Christianity, bro. Let's go back to like Viking shit. Let's like believe in Ragnarok and stuff. And then like, we'll have even better outcomes. We'll have like a fucking war and like, you know, create the west again and like, you know, bring Europe back from the brink of destruction, whatever. And it's like an interesting idea and whatever. But the thing about it is most of these guys are just atheists and nobody actually believes in like to be a modern person who believes in like Ragnarok, you have to be a fucking Rita. So basically there's this thing called routinization which is like, if you live in a Christian society, for example, or a Muslim society, how many people actually believe in the Muslim God? How many people actually believe that Jesus Christ came back from the dead and was resurrected? The amount of routinization in a culture leads to the reification of the belief structure. And so, you know, sometimes I'm bringing this all back to Bitcoin, but like, sometimes on Twitter we, we think to ourselves, like, there are all these like seemingly insane autistic people who, you know, like, Trump says he's gonna free Ross on day one. And it doesn't literally happen on day One. And these people are like, I'll fucking kill you. Burn down the whole fucking state. Fuck. You said day one, bitch. You said fucking day one. Right? And. And the rest of us who don't have Asperger's, we look at them and we go, what's wrong? Are you okay? What's going on, man? Do you need medications? But those people are fully routinized in the bitcoin belief structure. They are true believers in bitcoin and they are super important. I'm making fun of them, but they're super important. And the reason they're super important is because the amount of routinization within a belief structure leads to the reification of that belief structure. And so when you look at something like bitcoin, I'm not saying it's going to become a religion and displace Christianity or anything like that. I'm just saying that it's an extremely powerful human belief structure which is going from the process of routinization to reification. And we're able to watch that clearly happen over time. And when you see something that's that powerful, they come along very infrequently in human culture. Actually, we think that they're more. They're more frequently occurring than they are because people believe a lot of garbage. And we think, well, people are routinized about all sorts of stupid shit, but the truth is, nobody's actually, like, gunned to their head. They don't actually believe those things. But there are a bunch of bitcoiners that you said, give me. It's your bitcoin or your life. And they would say, take my life. I mean, that's a real thing. We all know those guys. Those guys are important.
- [51:25]
Walker
You need that, right?
- [51:27]
American Hodl
Like.
- [51:28]
Walker
Like you. You kind of necessarily must have that. Is there something about bitcoin that lends itself to more of that, or do you think, like, there is the same general proportion of that kind of, I don't know, like fundamentalism, you know, that you would see in any sort of movement or because this one is like, is this different? You know what I mean?
- [51:48]
American Hodl
You talk to like a Youval Noah Harari, who's a fucking gimp for the wef. They keep him in the back of the Wef in a gim suit and they bring him out every once in a while. If you talk to somebody like that, he'll say that humans are. We're storytelling monkeys and we organize ourselves via fictions. And so these fictions are just very powerful because they've caught on at scale and that's how we organize and that's why they work and blah blah, blah. And I think that that's bullshit. And I don't think that humans organize themselves around shared fictions. I think humans organize themselves around stories, yes, but stories about shared recognition, stories about things that are true. So bitcoin is true. That's why people are organizing themselves around it. It really is pretty much that simple. And then the process has all this color and flourish and it's very interesting to watch play out and be a part of. And that's why we're here every day is because there's nothing else quite as interesting happening on earth at the current moment. And if there is probably that new thing that's more interesting, like if AGI becomes a real thing, that will probably take more of my attention than bitcoin will. But at the moment, bitcoin is the most exciting story on earth.
- [52:58]
Eric Cason
Well, and like the, that encounter with truth in our current world structure because like it like it is a nihilistic hellhole out there right now and it's super fucking dark. And like it's so dark that like that's why you have so much atheism and this like fucked up wokeism and like the like those people that you bring up like, like if you're like well like what do you think about God? Like they'll kind of, you know, snicker and lab God. Yeah, like there's a magical guy in the sky and it's like, like you're so deep in that fucking darkness that like you're literally incapable of thinking or believing that like maybe there is some other unifying structure to like the entire existence of what it means to be a human and like how we interpret the world. And to me like that's all like God is. It's like it's this like infinite unifying structure that's like part of the ever unfolding mystery that like as these little like monkeys that are graduating into a higher level of consciousness, like that's fundamentally like what this higher sense of being is, is like figuring out what that secret is and connecting to that and like having this conscious experience that like awakens and enlightens us to go like whoa, there like is this bigger thing in the universe that like I can participate and be part of and like see and understand and discover and like that awakens something very special inside of me and I can recognize that in others and they can recognize it in me and like that shared purpose and sense and Meaning is all like this alignment thing that helps like make the entirety of humanity better and like gets us farther along. And that's like against like our wef gimp friend who's like, no, like all just like nihilistic nonsense. And like, we can make up whatever stories we want, like that that's actually fundamentally fucking evil. And it's pretty interesting. If you approached him about evil again, he'd be like, like human stories. And this is what Hannah Ardent pointed out in Eichmann in Jerusalem. She's like, we're literally talking to a man that helped participate in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. And like, he can't fucking connect the point that like this is a question to him directly. And like, so the question when we encounter evil isn't about like, what, what do we do about them? It's like, what do we do in response to that? And I think that's what's such a big deal about Bitcoin is because when you encounter this truth and then you look out in this world, they're like, oh, bitcoin's bullshit. You should buy, you know, buy shitcoin by Trump coin. Whatever the question is, isn't like, well, no, like we have to stop them from shitcoining. It's like, oh fuck, like, am I, am I also going to do that? Is that, is that the world that I want to produce where like I can't even see what's fucking going on? Or am I going to make a choice to actually pursue a choice towards something that I believe is meaningful and other people see it as meaningful. And as far as I can tell, by doing the work, none of us can control or fuck with this thing in a meaningful way that destroy it. So, huh, maybe that's actually the thing that gets us out of this nihilistic fucking hellhole. And to me, like, now that we've encountered all of these other people that seem to actually really get it on like a pretty profound fucking level, like, bitcoin is inevitable and it's not inevitable because of the false sort of destiny ideal that happens, but it's inevitable because now there are truly awakened people who understand what the cost and what this gives us. And this sort of magically allows for us to exercise ourselves from all of the fucked up circumstances. And very particularly, like, as Americans, like, I think that we more than any other people's have a very real destiny that's involved with this because like the, like, these aren't fucking CCCP values, you know, like the idea of what Bitcoin enables and the sort of free market, economic libertarian ideals. No, but that's like a deeply fucking American ideal. And if we can actually use this thing to not only fuck up the American political establishment, we can use that and push that out into the world to, like, fuck up all this other nonsense communism, that's going on, that's a very real fucking danger to all of humanity. You know, like, we do not want the CCCP becoming a major world player any more so than it is now. And, like, we need to fucking contain that, that fucking red dragon before it gets out of fucking hand. And it already is out of hand, by the way.
- [57:23]
American Hodl
Eric is using the verbiage, like, you know, fuck shit up, smash shit up, like, shake it up. Like, which totally. It does do that. But I think also it's just, to me, it's a very restorative movement technology philosophy. Like, it gives us back a lot of things that we lost. And it's a restoration project. Right? It's sort of an interesting thing too, that we as millennials have spent our life here on this restoration project on money. Because I actually, I was thinking about this recently, and I think that that is actually the core millennial calling, is to find a restoration project. If even something trivial like, you know, beer sucks, right? Let's create the craft brew movement. Okay, now we have a bunch of cool beers. That's cool. Like, thank you, hipsters. Right? We're like, culture sucks. Okay, let's go back and reexamine, like, why our culture is so shit. Or like, the money sucks. Okay, let's go back and re examine it. Like, I think a lot of, like, there was this, like, hundred years of centralization that occurred. You know, basically since the Federal Reserve was put in. We could get into a whole, like, quagmire there. But, like, I'll skip over it. There's this period of 100 years in of, like, increasing centralization, basically because of the central banking system and the millennial restorative project, like, if millennials actually are going to be the hero generation or some subset of them are going to be, is to undo the last hundred years. Because the last hundred years were bullshit.
- [58:47]
Walker
You know, I like that idea of kind of restoration of things because it does. Like, something I've just been thinking about is like, like, what. What would the world look like if just like the Federal Reserve hadn't existed? You know, as. As an example? Or like, even just like, we can go more recent still before any of our times, but, like, you know, If Nixon hadn't finally taken us that last final step off the gold standard, like, what, what would, you know, Would we be living in a future where maybe there wasn't that dire need for bitcoin to be created? Like, Satoshi didn't put all the pieces together because maybe the problem wasn't as acute. And so, you know, maybe in a way it's like we, we live. Like, I'm very grateful to live at this time because it's like, man, like, we get to see the phase shift and we get like, yeah, a lot of. Been a lot of up stuff along the way, but like, at least we get to be here while things are changing and while there are actually tools available to us, open source technologies that actually allow us to have a fighting chance at like, putting this bastard of a genie of fiat degeneracy back in the bottle and then like, I don't know, incinerating. I don't know how you like kill a genie because like, if you, you know, but we can get into that later how to dispose of a genie. But the point being, like, man, what a cool fucking thing that we get to be around for this, that we get to, you know, at least be near the, the place where this is all taking place. And like, I mean, hopefully things do get a heck of a lot better. But I agree also that like, man, this, this needs to be the antidote to the fucking communism streak, to the red wave of things that masquerades under like, oh, no, but we'll do business with the west and like, will definitely steal all of your tech and then we'll sell it back to you. And so, yeah, we're actually kind of, we're kind of capitalist here. So, like, don't pay any attention to us. It's like, fundamentally, bitcoin is anti authoritarian and anti centralization and those both of those things just describe many of the most disgusting governments in the world. So, like, it is incompatible. Incompatible with those. And it most closely aligns with Western American ideals. And so, like, that's a good thing. Like, it is kind of incumbent on America to be the first mover in that from a large geopolitical standpoint. And let's hope I also hodl. I mean, God damn, Trump didn't do the executive bitcoin order in the first hour and I'm going to lose it. Just so you know, I'm going to lose it.
- [61:17]
Eric Cason
I'm going to give him a month to kind of get his shit together. He is kind of like the most important Person in the world who's kind of busy with a lot of stuff.
- [61:24]
Walker
Why isn't he talking about Bitcoin right now?
- [61:26]
Eric Cason
Right now I want to cut them that slack. But with what Huddle said is like this truly is a restoration movement. And part of that restoration is reconnecting literally to the enlightenment and understanding that like the world isn't nihilistic nonsense. Like there is actually a greater and truer purpose. And what Bitcoin offers and all of this open source technology we're working on, like it not only does it rescue us from that, but like there's no reason why this doesn't become, not even just a thousand year project, but like this just becomes the rhyme zone of the like the whole of human history forever, like however far out humanity can go. And like that's a crazy idea because despite how powerful the machines get, it seems very clear from the math that's been done that like this cryptography is solid and should last forever. And it's very hard for us in our little fucking monkey minds to deal with what that means. And like to, to me, I'm always just blown away at how powerful and sophisticated cryptography is and the sort of, and how new it is. You know, like the like shot 256 was only made in what like 2004 or something. And so like it's, it's really important to understand like how radical all this is in the scheme of human development. And the fact that we're just kind of standing at when all of this got brought together is, it's pretty amazing and powerful and is one of the reasons that like I sincerely do think that we are at a phase shift moment in humanity on a total, because of how powerful and unique these tools are and the fact that like now cryptography is widely deployed and understood as we're getting AGI like that, because to me, as far as I can tell, like cryptography is the only thing that we can use to actually meaningfully demarcate with, with AGI, you know, like that's going to become so fucking important in generalized key management when there are rogue AI agents out there that can absolutely hammer fuck people who don't understand what key management is or how you, how you should be utilizing it.
- [63:35]
American Hodl
I think I, I want to go back to this, this question that Walker asked a few minutes ago, which was the what would the world look like, right? And like, I think when I think of like restoration, I think about my children and you know, Bitcoin is this big global project that we hope to leave to all humanity, which includes our children and our grandchildren and our great grandchildren, et cetera. And, you know, I think we're winning on that front. I think we're gonna win, but sometimes that's a little bit like, too large. It's too ephemeral. And so when I think about my own children, I think about just showing them something, whatever it is, a community restoration project, you know, a piece of land, a business, something that helps people or something that beautifies the world in some way. And just saying, hey, look at, look at this little corner of the world that I made. Good for you, you know, and that it really, like, brings it down to earth in that sense. Because I think when we think about, like, the way the world could have been, it's hard to know what we've lost out on it. I think about that John Lennon song, Working Class Hero, where he goes, you think you're so clever and classless and free, but you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see. And it's like we don't know what, we don't know what. We missed out on how much wealth, how much value was destroyed by fiat currency and how much of that value could have been compounded into the future. And we're, we're the, we're supposed to be the inheritors of that wealth, but we were basically stiffed. And so it was kind of up to us to look around and say, well, how do we fix it? Like the blockchain of humanity through an error. And that doesn't happen in every generation. In fact, you can go on for many generations without ever getting an error. But fiat is an error. And we had to take a good hard look around and say, how can we fix that so that we can kick start the engine of global capitalism, so that we can push value into the future rather than extracting value from the future in order to live today. Because I don't. The boomers had no compunction about doing that to us. But I personally find it to be a moral blight that I would ever do that to my children or to global society's children. And so we want to push value into the future, and then we want to compound that value. And what can the world be in a thousand years if we have increased the global GDP by 7% a year? Like, the compounded rate of return on that is insane. And it literally gets us to like, you know, space utopia shit. So to me it's like, that's the big idea. And then the small Idea of restoration is do what you can, where you are, with what you have available to you, and be able to show something to your children that's meaningful. Don't. Don't have this baby boomer mindset of, like, well, that's just the way it is. All right, see you later, kids. All right. Don't do that. Don't do that to your kids, man.
- [66:28]
Walker
Pick yourself up by your bootstraps like I did when things were. You know what? I bought this house for two raspberries. You don't have two raspberries, son. Why don't you get a job? You know, it's like, Jesus, I just.
- [66:39]
Eric Cason
Don'T understand how their heads are so far up their own fucking asses in terms of, like, well, like, it blows my mind. And, like, I have a lot of tension with my parents because, like, I, you know, like, I've obviously been involved in talk about this, and, like, we can't really break through anywhere. And it's just. It's such a struggle because I'm like, at, like, how do you look at, like, my generation and see that, like, nobody owns homes, Everybody's struggling. That, like, it's just desperation across the board, and you're just like, have nothing to do with that. And it's funny because, like, I very directly remember when I was younger, like, having a conversation in my early 20s with my parents of them being like, look, like you. You, like, can't change the world. You just, like, have to, like, do the little bit you can, and, like, that's it. And I just remember, like, that was a strong breakfast. I was like, no. I was like, I fundamentally reject that. Like, we can all put our hands in the machine and, like, move it a little bit. And, like, if you don't accept that, like, yeah, you're gonna get whatever nonsense it is. And that was one of the things that kind of had me go off on my own march and figure, like, find my own journey without needing to turn back for their approval. And I don't know, like, I feel very similar to Hodl in that. Like, I. It's so meaningful to me to make sure that I leave things for my children so that they look back at me and they go, like, dad did some shit, right? You know, I'm like, like, I live out here in the middle of the woods, and, like, one of the things I'm committed to is, like, keeping this home that I have. I have a beautiful orchard. Like, I. I have four magnificent fucking sequoias that are probably, like, 120ft tall on my property that like, that's just for us to have forever because of how incredible they are, you know, and it, it's so meaningful to have that. And also, like, I talked to my son about, you know, because he's like, you know, where are you traveling to and what you're doing? I'm like, look, like I could just hang out at home and live this great life with you, but I feel a greater meaning to explain to people and try to show them what this sort of wacky philosophical ideal and belief I have about bitcoin is. And people seem to hear it and want to hear more of it. And like, I feel strongly pulled to trying to flesh all of that out. And I think it's like a lifelong project, so it's gonna keep being what I do. And he, like, he gets it and it's pretty cool. And so I'm, I'm excited watching him grow up and instill these values and start interacting with it.
- [69:02]
Walker
Do you think? Another thing I think about like, forward looking is if we like, if, you know, if bitcoin wins, which I think like bitcoin is winning, but like, whatever. I don't, I don't want to get too technical about what bitcoin winning looks like. I think, I mean, I think it looks like this right now, but like, I don't know how, like where that goes to. Do you think there's ever a risk of like, maybe, maybe it's not our kids, maybe it's the, you know, maybe it's our grandkids, maybe it's our great grandkids, like the complacency of not remembering how bad things were because life does improve so markedly and then you have a potential for some reversion back to a prior state. Or does the long term game theory of bitcoin kind of just not incentivize that sort of reversion? Do you know what I mean? Like, like, is there a chance of complacency in future generations because they weren't around when the shit was like it is now. They weren't around for fiat, just ruining everything.
- [70:03]
American Hodl
I think certainly that there's a high chance of apathy and complacency both in for all inheritors of fiat of systems. I think you see that with the baby boomers who were the inheritors of the American institutions that they ended up spearheading and were sort of apathetic and careless in their stewardship of those institutions. And now we're facing this plethora of problems because of that. And I think that's a very human thing that bitcoin doesn't get rid of. But I will say that bitcoin is a ruthless game of efficient market capitalism. And if you incorrectly economically calculate the bitcoin goes away from you and it doesn't come back to you. So if you have a Family Fortune of 6.15 Bitcoin in the future, which is going to be a lot, it's going to be a whole lot and you own the entire state of Rhode island or something, well then if your inheritors do a bad job managing that capital, it's going to go away from them and it's going to go to somebody else who's a more ruthless and efficient capitalist, which is, you know, on net a good thing. The thing I worry about is like, maybe if we're at some level where like permanent ossification is not possible and then we have continual code upgrades and people get apathetic to the like adversarial nature of bitcoin and they start treating it more, you know, like, let's, let's like tack our wish list on here. And then you start getting these bastardization. Like somebody, you know, basically a couple hundred years from now, somebody comes along, they're like 21 million was because Eric Cason was a Nazi, we should have 79 million. You know, like, it's just like some weird argument, right? All these case nights here today. I see you and I know you're on, I know you're on drugs, first of all.
- [71:50]
Eric Cason
Second of all, it's a secret practice. Well, I answered your question, Walker. Is that like, I, I think like the, the turning cycle that we go through is like the next great thing is going to be like all the apathy happens when we've like hit the hash horizon and like Mars is well colonized and like the Martians are pissed that like they don't get to meaningfully participate in the bitcoin economy and that like they're over just because they're outside of the hash horizon. And like it's going to be Drew Branzel's whole Mars coin theory playing out and it's going to be about a, you know, an interstellar war between the Martians and Earth and that Earth has gotten fat and lazy on the fact that like they have the bitcoin standard and that everything operates pretty smoothly and they get the extract resources not only from Mars, but from the belt and Mercury and other places and that like they just have a money that works. And so it's going to be pretty wild. But like the, yeah, the other thing to appreciate is that like the, the future is so wide because like, we don't. We have no understanding of how far we've been set back. And like, the thing I'm more excited than anything about is like, unfucking the money, unfucks a bunch of stuff and like, unfucking the development of general human thought and action is so important. And like, like, one of the things that blows my mind is thinking about I forgot what podcast was on. But Eric Weinstein pointed out he was like, If I had $10 million just to do development around physics, he was like, I guarantee I'd be making breakthroughs within three to five years. And like, we've lost out on that in so many places. I've been looking at like early aeronautics experiments and it was like, it was literally bicycle mechanics that just like kept pushing themselves forward that became the first dudes to make planes and start flying them. And like, you can't do any of that shit today because of the regulatory environment. And like, what if people were able to just like, fuck around with rocketry and rail cannons and all kinds of shit? And I think when we get back to a bitcoin standard, the way that logic will start actually pushing itself to the forefront of all forms of development is really going to break out. All kinds of. And that's so exciting to me. Not to mention like, geographically, how different is the world going to get distributed now that like, we can just develop energy infrastructure anywhere. So like, I like, there's no reason that like, the interior of Alaska doesn't have megalopolises or, you know, that that out in Tierra del Fuego there isn't like new archipelagical developments that are going like, there's all kinds of shit to be done. And it's really exciting, particularly if you're coming in from like, nihilistic darkness, hopeless fiat land and so like it. I don't know, this is the place that I feel really good about it and it's great to talk with you guys because, like, you go back out into normaland like, particularly here in fucking liberal topia and they're like, oh, it's the worst day that's ever happened. And I'm not sure, you guys might hear in the background it sounds like seals, but it's actually just the wailings of liberals.
- [74:55]
American Hodl
Ross Stevens had a great example of like a. You know, you can think of a rural waterfall in Africa somewhere that has, you know, there's no reason for anybody to go there. But if you put hydropower there and you start running a bitcoin mine there, suddenly you have a. You have an energy resource, and then you're uploading to Starlink or whatever, and then you have a town that forms around this energy resource, and suddenly it's like, you know, a couple hundred years on in the future, like Eric said, you have a megalopolis in the middle of rural Africa where this water source was, you know, where before there was nothing. So there's all these untapped resources that we haven't even gotten to yet.
- [75:31]
Eric Cason
But bitcoin wastes energy. I saw that green. Oh, just the fucking retards with, like, not. And then I'm like, oh, wow, you're like an expert in energy policy. Like, what do you think we should do with negatively priced energy? And they're like, huh? But what. I'm like, oh, like, I. With you having such strong opinions about bitcoin and knowing how it wastes energy, I thought maybe you knew something about how energy markets function, but you don't, do you? Maybe you should shut the fuck up and do some homework before you have an opinion about this shit. Oh, just. It pisses me off. Like, you can read and, like, put thoughts together. Why don't you do that? Oh, because you like being poor and being a slave? Because it's easier than needing to fucking make real decisions about your life and taking risks on things. That's like. The embarrassing truth is, like, most people are too fucking afraid to ever take a chance on anything. Like, that's the one that really pisses me off, is I give people all the homework, they get close to it, they're like, I don't know, it, like, seems like a big risk. And I'm like, you drove your fucking car here and you trusted all the other shitheads on the road not to drive directly into you. Like, that's a risk in and of itself. Dipshit. Life is a risk. Fucking take it. Or be the goddamn slave they've designed you to be. But I'm sure we both know you already made that fucking decision. Or had it made for you, more accurately. Sorry, I'm in a bad mood.
- [77:01]
Walker
Hey, man, this is a safe space you got. Like, again, not the bullshit kind of safe space that the wailing seal liberals behind you would like. It's like. Like a real one where you can rant freely. Yeah, okay. This is just slightly sidebar. Do you think we're fucking done? Are we at a point now where we can be done? With the bitcoin waste, waste energy thing because of like now you at least are starting to see some like, literature come around. Or do you think it's just still gonna, like, that's just gonna recycle every time?
- [77:29]
American Hodl
Yeah, I mean there will be people who are always upset about it. I think the most cover we have from it is actually not intrinsic to bitcoin, but is the AI thing because AI is using a fucking ass fuck ton of energy. And you know, if AI is allowed to use an ass fuck ton of energy, then so are we. Goddammit. It's like, I mean it's a pretty easy. It was always stupid by the way. And it's. They, by the way, they hit every new technology with the energy argument. So email had to run the energy argument when it first was being popularized in the early 90s and people were saying, well it uses so much more energy than the post office to send a single email. Why would you do that? Blah, blah, blah. Okay, humanity, by the way, let's get this through our, let's get this to our heads liberals, okay? Humanity, human flourishing is dependent on increasing energy usage. Pretty simple. Just let's get that one in there, let's put that in the head and let's remember it, okay? Stop trying to fucking kill all the people on the planet, you Malthusian piece of shit, and then have us all ride bicycles or something, which we're not gonna do. And also we're never using solar panels. Sorry, we're, we're doing nuclear, bro. We need way more power than solar panels will provide. We'll do a little bit of solar panels, like, like five. But mainly it's going to be nuclear.
- [78:50]
Eric Cason
You know, this is all ideological at this point in time. Like I guarantee in the next four year cycle, like you simply saying Bitcoin, like they, they will literally be like, oh, like you're a far right fascist. And it's like you don't, you don't even know what these words mean. And yes, you're right, it's not fascism, but it's something totally new. But yeah, it turns out that like fuck your democracy. I don't want, like, I want nothing to do with you in a political system because you're far too fucking stupid to make any meaningful choice. And like that's what the last decade was about. Like we, we tried your wacky asinine bullshit that has nothing to do with truth and it's just about route Marxism. And like, let's be clear, like this isn't even Marxism. This is like a very contorted, fucked up, like half aborted thing that you guys call Marxism. And like, it's really infuriating because, like Marxism actually like had some good logical points, which is why it was like a successful forerunner to the communist movement. But like all of this, like post Stalinist shit that you guys call Marxism, like, it, it's just, and it's really infuriating that you believe it because of the feelings that it gives you. And like, to be clear, like, these are all feelings that were indoctrinated from you from kindergarten based on a whole bunch of bullshit. And with that being said, like, you can't even remember the first principle in kindergarten where they're like, you shouldn't steal other people's shit. Like, that's not okay. Like you shouldn't. You, you. Like the other big one is you shouldn't use violence against people that don't disagree with you.
- [80:22]
American Hodl
Huh?
- [80:23]
Eric Cason
Like, that's another big one that you should really consider more. So anyways, yeah, we're totally going to. Now we just need to like dispose of this like, Republican right part and like make our own new tech far right movement that's like, about its own thing. And I'm really excited for that. So when, when we get that going, like, somebody send me a memo because I'm definitely participating in that because, like, I'm really excited about like using that to get our political objectives accomplished.
- [80:49]
American Hodl
I will run for president when we get that figured out. Let's do that.
- [80:54]
Walker
All right, so you got my vote. I'm. I'm in. I'm sold. I'm.
- [80:59]
Eric Cason
So the Orange Party. Like, what, what are we. Is it just the Orange Party? Maybe.
- [81:03]
American Hodl
That's pretty dope. I like it.
- [81:05]
Walker
It's clean, right? Like it's. I'm here for it. I mean, do you think we're gonna sweep with this?
- [81:14]
Eric Cason
Because, like, everyone is ready for this. Everyone is hungry for it. We're just like, we just had the bust out of Overton window and make sure that we defeated the communists this round. But like, you know, next round it's going to be pretty exciting because it'll be clear how fucked it is.
- [81:29]
American Hodl
I think this idea is actually hanging out there. I was listening to the. The New York Times did an interview with Curtis Yarvin recently. And if you don't know Yarvin, he's like a far right thinker who basically believes that America needs a CEO or a monarch that sort of acts like a CEO. We need to run America more like a startup or whatever. And that's very similar to the idea that Eric is putting out there. And I think that a lot of people kind of want just like, an efficient government that works for them. Now, people don't want authoritarian control. They want something that looks much more like an American CEO than an American dictator. But people do want an efficient government that's working for them and not this hopeless morass we find ourselves in with this deep state bureaucracy that does who knows what for God knows what reasons and seemingly puts us in a state of anarcho tyranny where the state is powerless to help you. Oh, your fat. Your daughter got killed by a fucking Venezuelan migrant. Oh, sorry. But is not powerless to harm you. Oh, you. You forgot to do your. Your Venmo transactions. Well, you have a $3,700 here. Jail for nine years, right? And it's like, okay, that's just an untenable state that we can't have people living. Living within. And it needs to. It needs to find a way to fix itself at some point.
- [82:45]
Eric Cason
Well, does it.
- [82:47]
Walker
Does it fix itself, though? Like, can it fix itself? Or does it only get fixed by external pressure from a parallel system like Bitcoin?
- [82:54]
American Hodl
I'll let Eric go because I know he has a lot of thoughts on this, but, like, to me personally, it's like, I would rather stick with the, you know, republic that brung us, but, like, if you study Rome, like, republics fall to empires. So I don't know, man. I'm just hanging on here, trying to see what happens.
- [83:11]
Eric Cason
We can definitely reform the republic, but, like, it. It needs a radical movement, and, like, like, people need to be angry and they, like, need to remember their hatred for, like, how asinine this is. Like, this isn't. This isn't like, gee, golly, I wish this was different. It's like, you should be screaming and outraged at how fucking stupid all of this is. Like, these people literally steal from you and exploit you every fucking day. In and out around the most stupid, asinine shit, while meanwhile, their friends are literally participating in pedophile parties and getting away with the most disgusting and ludicrous crime. Like, the fucking President of the United States for the last four years just pardoned every fucking member of his family. Like, it is so absurd. Like, we should be fucking hunting these people down and murdering them instead of being like, oh, well, I guess that's just how the political system works. Like, you got fucked. And instead of you, like, you're trying to be like, well, no, it wasn't rape, because Like, I wasn't wearing my burka. Like, no, you just got raped consecutively, repeatedly, and you convinced yourself that that shit was okay because what, you live in the UK and was told that that's, that's what's allowed now? Like, no, we're fucking American. We're not supposed to allow for ourselves to get gang raped by fucking migrants, dude. But if you're in the uk, like, hey, like, I'm not trying to be racist. Like, that's, that's like a cultural thing you guys like to do.
- [84:38]
American Hodl
So I was watching the inauguration, I was watching the inauguration this morning and the, you know, archbishop, whoever was giving a fucking prayer about how we're all unified under God, etc. And I was, you know, looking at Bill Clinton, who was like three rows back, noted pedophile, Epstein island frequenter Bill Clinton is like, right there. And it's like, what are we just. We're just pretending this guy doesn't fuck teenagers?
- [85:01]
Walker
Like, it's, it's insane though. Like, it's literally like, it's the constant flaunting that as much as, you know, they like to say that no one is above the law. It's like, but you obviously are like, like, you're saying no one is above. Like, that's, that's the. With all this Biden family pardoning, it's just so absurd because, like, have you seen like, any of the, like, people put together some nice, like, montage clips of like, either like b. Like Biden or like everyone in the legacy media, you know, the Chris Hayes of the world being like, well, if you're pardoning someone before they've committed a crime, isn't that basically admitted that they've actually already been committing crimes? And then you see this now and it's like, what you remember those things you said, but like, apparently all the people who deify you are just like, have the memory of goldfish and just forgot this. And there's not even an inkling in their brains of like, huh, you know, maybe actually we're not the good guys. It's like, it's like that meme that like, you know, like, are we the baddies? Like, you know, it's just, it's insane that we put up with this and that people are just apparently most of them fine with going along with it and seeing, you know, somebody like a fucking Bill Clinton just chilling in the back there, being like, yep, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm a disgusting human being who was on Epstein island. But don't worry, I'm. It's okay because I'm with her and her is my wife. So I don't know. It blows my mind.
- [86:31]
American Hodl
The corruption will make your head spin because it's so brazen. Like you said, it's so brazen. It's so in your face. It's just like, yeah, we're above the law. We do what we do, and we can never be brought to justice for it. And it kind of doesn't matter which side it is. I mean, sometimes people think because I was, you know, campaigning for Trump, people are like, oh, Hoddles, just a fucking MAGA Trump guy. Fucking stupid maga tard.
- [86:58]
Eric Cason
Blah, blah, blah.
- [86:59]
American Hodl
And it's like, no, dude, I just. Listen, there are problems that are worse than Trump, and those problems were named Kamala Harris, right? Like, so, like, I didn't want a bunch of violent communists running our society. We now have a lesser problem, which is we have a used car salesman con artist running our society. And that's. That's fine, I guess. It's not ideal. Is anything really ideal? No, it's not ideal. Like, we're working with what we got here. We're shit is held together with fucking Popsicle sticks and glue, and we're not really, like, sure how if we're gonna make it over this bridge. Remember when you had to build a bridge out of popsicle sticks and, like, science class or whatever? Like, I don't know if the American bridge is gonna hold, you know, So.
- [87:43]
Walker
I was homeschooled, actually. So I never did any of your communist bridge building experiments, but I have heard of them. Yeah, I have heard of them. I was busy starting fires and playing with knives and stuff, which was.
- [87:56]
American Hodl
I was starting fires, too, but they were, you know, social fires. By being disruptive and burning down a.
- [88:03]
Walker
Fellow comrade's Popsicle bridge just to. Just to show them there's no retreat.
- [88:08]
Eric Cason
You know, it's funny. I've. I've talked to a few friends because, like, I homeschool my kids and, like, you know, pretty unstructured at this point. And I. And, like, there's parts of me that, like, you know, I'm like, oh, man. Like, am I like, my kid up by doing. And, like, you know, like, my. My son's reading, like, I don't know, like, five grade levels above where he should be or something. Like, he just, like, eats books, you know, I'm like. But I got him, like, an, like, pretty sophisticated, like, AI tutor program that has, like, everything he can do. And so I was like, oh, like, what is he doing? He was, like, teaching himself, like, base 58 coding. And I was like, is going on.
- [88:44]
American Hodl
That's never going to happen in public school.
- [88:48]
Eric Cason
I was like, why are you doing this? Who the good's super interesting.
- [88:51]
Walker
And I was like, that's awesome. Like, that's. That's amazing, though. Thank you.
- [88:56]
Eric Cason
Well. Well, it's funny because like, a year ago, I talked to. To Daniel Prince, and he. Because he, like, you know, he homeschooled all his kids. They're pre old. He was like, look, like, don't. Like, like, doing nothing is, like, really good. He was like, your real job is to, like, keep them away from the indoctrination that, like, makes them innate and, like, incapable of doing anything. And I was like, really? Like, that's it? He was like, yeah, that's like 90 of the job. And like, lo and behold, he's right. And like, all that I really do is it's like, I check it. I'm like, hey, like, what are you doing? He's like, oh, like. Like, I'm like, building this, like, race car. I, like, took it apart. I'm, like, putting it back together. And I'm like, all right, cool. Like, do you need parts? And he's like, yeah, I could use, like, a soldering kit. And I'm like, cool. Like, all right. Like. Like, don't put your kids in public school because, like, the other thing is, like, your kid. And like, I have friends who, like, their kids have came home and they, like, say, like, really crazy to them, you know, like, like, you know, the founding fathers were just like, a bunch of racists who, like, hated black people. And it's like, what? Like, who? Could you tell me more? And they're like, yeah, that's why they're all white, obviously. And it's like, got some work here to do.
- [90:05]
American Hodl
Perfect. Yeah.
- [90:07]
Eric Cason
And again, like, this is one of the other things about bitcoin that's really important is that, like, it turns out when you can actually save a little bit of fucking money and increases in its saving power versus decreases, like, maybe you and your partner could have a conversation about, like, somebody taking a little bit more time off. So, like, instead of you having to hire and use the state babysitting service called school, like, you can actually educate your children about what your guys's values are and how you believe that you guys should operate in the world rather than let somebody who has never had children and has dyed their hair purple as a statement about who and what they are educate your children about that and like not to hate on dyeing your hair. But it's like it, like it's unfortunate to me that like that's now a political statement that like you, you think that I don't know, it's up, you know what that you know and I'm sad about it.
- [90:54]
American Hodl
You know what that means now? It means I conform. Having tattoos and piercings and purple hair look basically looking like a punk rocker from like the late 70s, early 80s means I'm a hardcore conformist. That's what it means. Which is pretty hilarious.
- [91:11]
Walker
It is not counterculture in any way now. Like it is just literally mainstream culture.
- [91:16]
American Hodl
Yeah, yeah.
- [91:17]
Walker
It is a really easy signal to pick out.
- [91:20]
American Hodl
And again, especially like with young men, counterculture has become like being the opposite of everything that the crazy cat lady teacher is. So you know, your crazy cat lady teacher has purple hair and fucking, you know, tattoos all over herself and piercings. Well, you're gonna be totally straight laced, no tattoos, crew cut, go to, go to church, you know, and then she's gonna be like, you know, America's foundationally like woke and we should get religion out of schools and going to be like, Christ is king. Christ is king. Because that's the only way to rebel. So it's actually kind of like hilarious to watch that. It's come full circle, right? It's like when we were kids you rebelled in the opposite way and now, you know, during the Bush era or whatever and now you rebel, you know, by being a trad conservative.
- [92:05]
Eric Cason
So like the, the backlash that's going to come from this like really blows my mind. It's like you, you have taken the most capable, able bodied segment of the population and you have isolated, harassed and diminished them. And when like they figure out that like everything you've told them is a lie and that you've disenfranchised them like specifically around the. That like you don't. You like you disenfranchised them specifically because of their sex and specifically because of the color of their skin. Like they're gonna be mad.
- [92:41]
American Hodl
Yeah.
- [92:41]
Eric Cason
Like when they get together with other guys and start like drinking a bit. Like you've got a real problem on your hands and like welcome to the far right tech party. Like come along like we want to celebrate you and help you out. Like here, here's a bunch of tools to help you out and organize yourself because like you guys are actually empowered individuals that should be celebrating that Christ is king and reforming your local government, your state government and you know, your national government in order to enact the values that you believe in and are entitled to because you're the able bodied, powerful one, you know, and like, and I just want to be clear, like, I really support, like, my body, my choice. And that's why, like, I shouldn't be fucking drafted and that women shouldn't have any say in that. It's absolutely insane to me that, like, I can go die for my country. So, like, let's just scrap that because, like, again, I respect your body, your choice. Let's respect my body, my choice. If you want to go get murdered in Ukraine because we continue this bullshit, thank God Trump's going to end that shit too. Like, like the, the fact that we gave like, how much money did we give to Ukraine? It was like a half trillion dollars, something like that. It's been an amount 2008 bailout, one that we just like gave, like, gave another country.
- [93:55]
American Hodl
We also gave them basically all of our old military supply. And you know, it was the thing I kept hearing from people that never made sense to me is like, this is a good deal for us. They kept saying, this is a good deal for us. Like, we're getting rid of our old supply and then we're able to get new supply and we're bleeding one of our adversaries or whatever. And it's like you're, you're hollowing out that country. You're hollowing it out of all of its young, talented men. And what is going to be left there, even if they win the war, it's going to be a Pyrrhic victory because what will be left other than sex traffickers, drug traffickers, the worst elements of society, it's, there's no.
- [94:37]
Walker
And all the rich mayors, all the rich, like politicians, sons, who all fled the country into Romania in, in their.
- [94:43]
American Hodl
Super nice cars trafficking rings.
- [94:45]
Walker
Yeah, yeah, right. Like it's, it's insane. Well, and that's the, like, that's the messed up thing is it's like, it's like, oh, we're getting a good deal out of this. It's like the we that is getting a good deal is the military industrial complex. Like, we as Americans are not getting any good deal out of this. The flower of Ukraine's and Russia's youth is not getting a good deal out of this. They're fucking dying in the most horrific possible ways. The only ones who are getting a good deal out of this are the politicians who are getting nice kickbacks and heavily invested in the military industrial complex. And like, so There is no we there. Unless you are one of those politicians, then, like, great, you've run a beautiful grift that has cost countless lives and enriched yourself under the guise of somehow, like, my democracy. And like, it's just, it's just insane.
- [95:32]
American Hodl
By the way, they. They don't actually take away everything that they say because they don't actually want to win this war. What they want is for this war to go on indefinitely because, like Julian Assange said, the point is to wash the money out of the American and European tax bases into the hands of a transnational security elite. That's the point. And they deal in blood in order to enrich themselves. I mean, they are literally like, sending more young men to the slaughter every day on the front lines. Brave, patriotic young men who, like, are the best of us, really. Because they show up and do that when, you know they otherwise wouldn't want to. I mean, did you see there was a video of a Russian and a Ukrainian knife fighting to death? It was about seven minutes long. I don't know. I, I made the point to a bunch.
- [96:26]
Eric Cason
You could just see this shit on the Internet now is fucking insane, dude.
- [96:30]
American Hodl
I made the point to a bunch of people that if you support the Ukrainian war effort, And a bunch of people said they did. I said, you should go watch the seven minute video. Two guys knife fighting each other to death. And they were like, well, I don't want to watch that. And it's like, you're supporting this. This is what you support, you know, so.
- [96:44]
Walker
Well, I didn't think it would be that bad.
- [96:48]
Eric Cason
Yeah, well, look, and like on the other half is like, now with this streaming directly on Noster, like, there's actually like a free and open platform to like, have real conversations about this shit. Like, I was, I was really excited to see Ian Carol's like on Noster now because, like, he's actually like approaching some of this stuff. And like, it's, it's hilarious because he's just like, hey, guys, there seems to be like all of this money in connection to, like, Israel. And like, like all these Israelis are like, you're an anti Semite and a Nazi. And he's like, like, all I'm literally doing is just pointing out that, like, there seems to be a strange relationship to how much money is making its way into the hands of Israelis who do, for all intents and purposes, seem to be conducting a genocide against, against the Palestinian people. And they're like, like, we said, you're a Nazi. And it looks like look, guys, like, I. I just don't, like, I just don't understand how we got to this place that, like, you support killing in any way. Like, it. It's just. It's so ludicrous to me. And, like, this, like, this is what brought me to bitcoin in the first place. It was like, during Occupy Wall Street, I was like, the money's obviously the problem. And I'm really angry because, like, I don't want to support any war. Like, I had the fortunate experience when I was younger to go travel through a number of war zones and meet a bunch of people who, like, just had their fucking limbs blown off when they were children because they had the unfortunate consequence of wandering into an American minefield. And, like, this happens over and over and over and over again. And I remember sitting one night in fucking, my hostel in Cambodia just fucking crying because, like, I literally had 30 kids chasing me who most of them were missing their fucking limbs from American munitions. And I was so traumatized by that fucking experience that when I finally found this bitcoin thing and, like, I just put it all together, I was like, wait a minute. Like, this is an actual money that these people can't fucking control. There's a real opportunity to use this thing to fight that gigantic fucking war machine. And then you get the. My favorite though is we get the like, x actually, Actually, like, bitcoin can shut the fuck up. Like, you have no solution whatsoever other than sitting in your chair, like, typing away on Reddit at night because you think you're right and your head is so far up your own fucking ass that you can't even stop for a minute to go, maybe these insane bitcoin people actually have. Have a point. Maybe there really is a real potential for this thing to challenge the power that be in a meaningful way. And even if that doesn't mean it doesn't rip the full base out of the fiat war machine, it at least empowers people like Ian Carroll that I can send him money directly on Noster because he's having real conversations with people about the structure of this thing and how exploitative it is to the entire. The entirety of the American republic. And, like, if you're a liberal and sincerely believe that bitcoin is this terrible far right thing, like, I don't know what to tell you anymore. Like, you're so fucking lost that you. You, like, liberalism doesn't mean anything at all to you other than a badge that you got given by a bunch of fucking murderers, so go fuck yourself. Sorry. Like I said, I'm a little, I'm a little fired up and angry about stuff today. Well, like, the thing I'm angry is, like, I live in Liberaltopia, where everyone's like, that Nazi Trump, he's, He's gonna hurt everyone. I'm like, your pre. Like, your president literally just pardoned his entire family for their fucking crimes. And, like, well, Trump did more crime. I'm like, I'm not playing what about ism with you. I'm pointing out that he committed a real fucking crime.
- [100:30]
American Hodl
Yeah.
- [100:30]
Eric Cason
And you don't give a fuck about it, do you? Nope. Sorry, guys.
- [100:35]
American Hodl
No, no, it's, it's really, It's a safe space.
- [100:37]
Walker
I know it's a safe space. No apology necessary. It is. I, I'm also stoked that Ian Carol's on Noer, because, honestly.
- [100:50]
Eric Cason
You.
- [100:51]
Walker
You found me out. You found me out. No, like, I, I, I appreciate. God damn it.
- [100:59]
Eric Cason
Wait, are you, Are you a crypto Nazi, too?
- [101:02]
Walker
I guess so. I mean, I'm a member of the Orange Party, and I hear they're all crypto Nazi fascists, so.
- [101:08]
Eric Cason
Yeah, right. Homies. I just got to disclaim, like, like, so, like, I have actually read a lot of different Nazi ideology. I'm, like, pretty well versed in understanding what National Socialism is. And, like, I'm not a Nazi, because I actually understand that. And, like, the, like, when you say fascist and Nazi, like, I understand those are, like, real words and not just like, bad guy. And, like, it's really important to understand that, like, the third largest economy in the most populous country in Europe made a choice to elect actual Nazis for, like, actual reasons. And maybe instead of you just, like, relegating that to, like, a bad place in history, like, maybe you should fucking study it to understand. Understand that there was, like, real reasoning of why and how that whole thing played out. And again, this isn't to come to the conclusion that, like, we should kill all the Jews. It's actually to come to the conclusion that, like, there was real fucking problems that made people actually desperate to choose that method and model in order to try to change their future. And the thing fucking unhinged itself at the end in a number of really fucking despotic ways that you should educate yourself on so it doesn't happen again.
- [102:19]
American Hodl
I think the point you're making, throwing.
- [102:21]
Eric Cason
It out there, not a Nazi, which.
- [102:23]
American Hodl
Is that the Overton window is as wide as you believe it is, and that there really should be no topic in a free and open society like America with free speech that we shouldn't be able to discuss openly. Like, so if you want to discuss Nazism or anti Semitism in their full breadth and color, you should be able to do that without being accused of being XYZ things. Unless you literally stand up and say, I am a Nazi. I hate the Jews, then we're going to assume as Americans acting in good faith, that you are not a Nazi and you don't hate the Jews unless you're Kanye west, in which case you might. You know what I mean? But, like, for most other people, will believe that you're acting in good faith in the conversation until you show yourself that you're not acting in good faith. By the way, I saw that thing about Ian Carroll, and I didn't know much. I don't know much about Ian Carroll. I. I thought it was cool. He was a big creator who was bringing his followers to Nostr, but other than that, I didn't know. And I saw some people online calling him anti Semite or whatever. So I think Eric's explanation was very helpful for me too, which is again, why you should be able to openly discuss stuff. Because now when I hear people say it after hearing Eric describe it, I'm like, oh, yeah, he's probably not a Nazi.
- [103:30]
Walker
You know, I don't get Nazi.
- [103:34]
Eric Cason
The whole thing people are keyed up on, like, about the Jew thing that they don't understand is that, like, there's, like, a big difference between, like, Zionism and Judaism. And that, like, if you don't understand that those things are actually different from each other, it's the same thing of being, like, bitcoin is crypto, right? It's like. Like that. That's like, kind of an infuriating standpoint. Like, one. One of my really close friends, like, he. He is an anti Zionist Jew. And, like, he. He is Jewish and, like, practices Judaism. And he also does not believe that, like, the Israeli state should be doing the things that it's doing. And like, again, this is all super nuanced shit that it's really hard to talk about because most people fucking flip out about it. But, like, again, it's really important to understand history. The thing that pisses me off the most about it was, like, this shit's been going on for 70 years. And the dudes that are like, free, pal. It's like they didn't even know where it was on a map until, like, two years ago. Yeah, it's just infuriating. And like, yeah, like. Like, I feel the same as them. But it's just like the way you guys go about, about this and like the, the general racism that you guys postulate to, towards it and the way that you like empower the whole dynamic. It's, you know, to me it's no different from, from the liberal conservative thing. It's really frustrating and difficult. So I don't know, Noster is just really exciting because like, there hasn't been any space to have any of these nuance and difficult discussions and being able to really actually put them out there and not. Not have the algorithm with it in all kinds of ways. So like, I'm. I don't know, I was just thinking earlier, like, I'm really excited for someone to really actually start using nostril as a platform to have like really difficult conversations because, like, I would really love to see a real debate with somebody who like actually believes and supports the Ukraine thing and like, would be willing to sit down and have a discussion.
- [105:17]
American Hodl
By the way. Maybe we should just do that. Maybe we should start hosting like Noster, you know, Lincoln Douglas style debates or something. Like, I do have a good idea. Right.
- [105:26]
Walker
It's kind of a, kind of a banger.
- [105:29]
American Hodl
We kind of haven't been using our free speech platform for all that much. Free speech. We're kind of being like, hey gm, it's all the people. I like bitcoin. I love it.
- [105:38]
Walker
Yeah.
- [105:39]
Eric Cason
Because it's a cozy.
- [105:40]
American Hodl
It's a cozy, safe space. We're like, it's all friends. Hey, friends, welcome to the friend fort.
- [105:45]
Eric Cason
We have this extremely powerful weapon for anti statism that we could use to actually like organize a revolutionary front. Like, what do you guys want to do? I want to say good morning and like post nice pictures of like cats. Like, like, I'm just like posting like mushroom pictures of me, like bike riding in the forest.
- [106:00]
American Hodl
Isn't that refreshing that like when, when humans have absolute freedom or when a certain amount of humans have absolute freedom, they use it to just be chill with each other. It's like it feels a lot better when you don't have the boot on your neck. You know, like when I was on X, I was, you know, famous for constantly getting my accounts banned. And I felt like I was a. Because back then they were lying. There was no Twitter files or whatever. They were just lying to us about everything they were doing. And so I kind of felt like a velociraptor testing the fences where I just say something or do something and see if it would get me banned and then I would resurrect my account. And then I would get banned again. And like, you know, in the movie, they. They never test the same spot twice. So you look systematically for weaknesses by brute forcing your way through all the things that could possibly get you banned on Twitter. And I felt like that was important to do because I was having my free speech taken away. Whereas on Nostr. I, no one's ever gonna come take my free speech away. So I don't really give a fuck, you know? Like, I don't. I don't feel like I need to fight against something because there's nothing there to fight against. Except for that. What's that one platform run by that rabble dude? What's that one called?
- [107:07]
Eric Cason
Dark Sky.
- [107:09]
American Hodl
Which one?
- [107:10]
Eric Cason
Dark Sky.
- [107:11]
American Hodl
No, no, the. That's enough.
- [107:15]
Eric Cason
It's blue Sky. Like, I'm. I'm like. I'm like, being sarcastic because it's just. No, it's a different one. It's a.
- [107:20]
American Hodl
It's a liptard nostril thing.
- [107:22]
Walker
Yeah, well, I. I met Rabble in person. I very much enjoyed him. I don't agree with everything he says.
- [107:31]
American Hodl
I don't like him.
- [107:34]
Walker
And you're free to. Yeah, and you can go tell.
- [107:38]
American Hodl
I don't know if you know about this, Eric, but, yeah, censorship regime on Noster. And he's like. He's got a little bot that tags things as hate speech and stuff. And you could post something very benign and it'll tag you as hate speech or whatever. It's very gay, so it's not my cup of tea.
- [107:54]
Eric Cason
I have a way to, like, see where, like, bass conversations are going.
- [107:57]
American Hodl
I can't even remember what the name of his stupid app is because I don't even. You know, like, what's.
- [108:02]
Eric Cason
Like, what's the point of that? Because, like, don't we just. Don't we just, like, not connect to his node And.
- [108:08]
American Hodl
Yeah, it's completely.
- [108:09]
Eric Cason
It's.
- [108:10]
American Hodl
It's completely pointless. It's completely ineffectual. And go ahead, you know, have fun. Have fun staying poor if you're using whatever the hell that client is that I can't remember. It's.
- [108:22]
Walker
I'm literally forgetting its name right now too, but.
- [108:26]
American Hodl
Shows how successful it's been. Good job censoring people on the anti censorship protocol. Good job, buddy. You're doing great.
- [108:33]
Walker
Bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see how it plays out for him. But. Okay, dudes, I. I've kept you here for a while now before. Just. We should probably. We should probably wrap up, get back to our Lovely families. Before we do anything else you want to leave folks with? We. I think we might actually. Apparently. Apparently I timed this like a jackass, because I guess Trump is going to be actually announcing some of the executive orders that he signed, like, fairly soon. So we'll. We'll. We'll just have to know. We'll just have to note at each other afterwards. Any. Any closing thoughts, though. Anything you want to leave The. The good folks watching this at home with.
- [109:09]
American Hodl
Let me think. That rabble guy is a bitch, so just know that. Love you, sweetie.
- [109:21]
Walker
Here we go.
- [109:22]
Eric Cason
You know, for me, it's just like, the. More because when I was peeing, I was like, man, this is, like, better than fucking therapy. And then I was like, yeah, like, why the fuck should I do therapy with, like, a normie person who, like, doesn't understand me, who I'm, like, always trying to bridge this gap rather than just, like, spending more time with my people. So, like, I. I've been on this kick for a long time trying to figure out, like, how to get my peoples together more. Like, I was looking at. And I'm still looking at, like, buying a variety of, like, different, like, camps and stuff where, like, I can get together, like, 50 people and just, like, hang out and party.
- [109:51]
Walker
That'd be sick.
- [109:52]
Eric Cason
But I don't know, like, I just. I just love you guys and I love being around my people because, like, I feel like I get to be fucking real and that, like, when I'm talking about my stuff, like, people get it and, like, I. It's just. It's hard out there in normal and, like, running up against the barrier every time. And I guess with that being said, like, if you're a listener and you're, like, out there and, like, you haven't connected with other bitcoin people, like, figure out a way to do it because, like, it's. It's really refreshing and feels really good. So, like, whether it's going to a conference or finding a meetup or, like, whatever way you can do it, like, it's pretty important because, like, every time that I've actually gotten together with people and. And, like, even more when there's a bigger gathering of people, it. It's pretty epic. By the way, like, I'm pretty jealous of you guys. Like, you guys going to, like, sailor's big ball and you guys go to the crypto ball. I don't know. I was just, like, watching all that, and I was just like, I didn't.
- [110:39]
Walker
Go to the crypto ball, by the way. Love you guys, too. But I did not go to the Crypto Ball.
- [110:44]
Eric Cason
That one I wasn't so FOMO about.
- [110:45]
American Hodl
I didn't go to the crypto ball either, because I was like, do I really want to leave my kids to hang out with a bunch of douchebag politicians? Like, not really, no. The sailor party thing, it was. It was fun, but, you know, I'm not going to, like, be like, it was the time of my life. You missed out, bro. Like, it was fine. Honestly. Like, I. There were a bunch of people upset on Twitter that they didn't get the invite, and I think it was about not being, like, legitimized by not having the invite or something. Like, they weren't part of the cool kids club or whatever. But, like, honestly, bro, I fucking flew five hours to wear a suit in 80° Miami Heat. It was not that great. It was not that great. I'm appreciative to Saylor for inviting us and everything. And it was fun. I got to see all the homies and everything.
- [111:27]
Eric Cason
I'm really surprised he invited me. After you did your tweet about me in the ballroom, I was like, I am fucking blackballed. There's no way I'm getting an invite after that.
- [111:37]
Walker
That's why I think he was like, I want that again. Like, this is the kind of color that I need there. You know, like, spice things up.
- [111:45]
Eric Cason
I felt really appreciative that. But. But in all honesty, like, my. My, like, Apex bitcoin moment was just. It was in Madeira. It was like, midnight. There was probably like 20 of us that were all just, like, hanging out in a square, like, smoking cigars, having drinks, and, like, it was like a symposium. Like, we were literally, like, going through Greek history, talking about cynics and, like, worldview and, like, I don't know, it was just. It really, really refreshed me and kind of reminded me of what I was up to and my importance of this, because to me, like, this is all a big philosophical sojourn that I'm going through. And, yeah, every time I talk with you guys, like, I'm always like, oh, yeah, like, that's the thing I'm up to. That's why it's important to me. That's why I want to get back to it. So, yeah, thanks for. So. So with that being said, I always appreciate getting invited on your podcast, Walker, and getting to talk with you, you know, and just getting to connect with people like this because, like, that's where the meat is, you know, for me, when we start. When you start connecting with other bitcoiners, getting the importance and what you can do with it, it gives you that extra kick in the ass to be like, oh, like, I need to lean in and do this. I need to study it more. I need to figure out the way that I'm going to generate more stat. Like, whatever, but, like, you're gonna get something meaty from it. And so I really encourage anybody who's listening that hasn't connected with other bitcoiners. Like, go find your people's and your place and, like, you're gonna find something good there.
- [113:03]
American Hodl
Ooh, by the way, I do have a thing to say. Psa. Stop saying the bitcoin price is tanking, dumping, crashing. When it's down anything other than 10 grand, okay? If it's down 10 grand, 10%, go ahead and say that. If it's down 6, that is 6%. If it's down 3 grand, that is 3% these days, okay? Like, no, have some self respect. Act like you've been here before, all right? Like, stop getting focused on the nominal price. Like, I just lost three grand. It's 3%, man. It's only 3%, okay? And simultaneously stop saying we're pumping, okay, if we're not above $10,000 on the day. Because fucking. I'm sick of checking my phone when you fuckers use this hyperbolic language. You are pissing me the fuck off. Stop it. Get some help. It's only a 3% move. Get used to winning one day. Bitcoin is going to move millions of dollars in a single day, okay? Get used to. Start thinking in percentage terms. Be smart. Don't be a retard.
- [114:12]
Eric Cason
I don't. You're just, like. You're just showing your hand how fucking poor you are. If you're like, like, I get to cash out, like, when it's gone up $3,000. Like, like, what are you doing? Like, now. Now you. Ooh. Like, you have an extra $3,000. Like, what are you gonna do with that now? Oh, it turns out that, like, you just lost out $6,000 because you fucking press the sell button too soon, you fucking retard. Like, maybe. Maybe you should actually just, like, figure out what you need to live and, like, what the things you want to get that are special to you, Then you just have your important sell point, whether it's however much it is. But, like, come on, guys. Like, this is fucking retarded. So I'm sorry, I just. I don't know that that shit Rubbed me the wrong way. It's like, it. If it's that important for you to have that. That 3% gain, like, don't tell me about that. Just tell me what you're gonna get yourself now that you hit your sell point and why that thing's important. Like, I'm happy for you.
- [115:03]
American Hodl
That.
- [115:03]
Eric Cason
That's great that you have that. But, like, if you just want to get more dollars in your bank account, you're. You're just showing your hand of that. Like, you're not actually a bitcoiner. You're just somebody here to make money. And again, like, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's just kind of cringe. Like, you're like the crypto bros that are trying to show you the Lamborghini that you bought by. By how you. You played the pump. It's gross.
- [115:26]
Walker
And on that note, I fucking appreciate you guys. Thanks for being here. I'm. This is also always therapeutic with both of you and getting to shoot the shit. And this will continue to be a safe space for all the Orange Party dissidents. And I. You know, there's. There's a growing number of us every day, so that's a hopeful thing.
- [115:47]
Eric Cason
But appreciate you guys share that shit because, like, I need that.
- [115:51]
Walker
Yeah, like, you need to.
- [115:52]
Eric Cason
I really need it because, like, I just want to just kick both liberals and conservatives in the face and be like, you're either the Orange Party or you're against us. Like, you're one of. You're one of those people, or you're with us. Like, which one? And then I just. Like the. Then the battle lines are drawn, and it's really easy. We'll wear orange armbands. We'll have. We'll have a nice little. Little symbol that goes on our orange armband.
- [116:17]
Walker
Oh, boy.
- [116:18]
American Hodl
I feel like all of you are dependent on price. When the price is up, you're beautiful, amazing community members and kindred spirits, and I love you all to death when the price is down. You people and your slight differences disgust me. Just know that.
- [116:32]
Walker
Know that I feel the same way. I feel the same way. Okay, thanks to everybody who tuned in on Noster also. And perhaps we will bring on some debates. It's Noster and I. You're not. Okay, no. End of the conversation's ruined now. Conversation's ruined. Okay.
- [116:51]
American Hodl
We say H in this house. We say gay, and we also say no.
- [116:56]
Eric Cason
Okay?
- [116:58]
Walker
And that's the live stream. And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of the Bitcoin Podcast. If you are a Bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring the Bitcoin podcast, head to bitcoin podcast.net Sponsor or send an email to hello@bitcoin podcast.net if you are enjoying the Bitcoin podcast and find it valuable, give it a boost on Fountain, a five star review wherever you're listening. Or better yet, share this show with your network so more people can learn about bitcoin. Or don't. Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate appreciate it. You can grab links in the show notes to watch or list this show wherever you get your podcasts. Or go to bitcoin podcast.net podcast and you'll also find the links to Follow me and the show on Noster and on X. Bitcoin is scarce. There will only ever be 21 million. But Bitcoin podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.