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The Nation-State Bitcoin Adoption Race - Princ Filip (Prince Philip) of Serbia & Yugoslavia (THE Bitcoin Podcast)
01:46:14
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- [00:00]
Prince Philip
We moved to Serbia and that's when I started to study more about bitcoin and realizing, well, this is actually amazing. Bitcoin is. It's the thing I've been looking for. It's that thing, that truth that I've been looking for. I've always had an innate feeling since I was young that things were not right in this world and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. We always led down different excuses and explanations, but never to the source of it. Thankfully, thanks to the lens that bitcoin has given me to understanding what bitcoin is and learning about monetary history, about what money is, that provided me the lens to understand a lot about what's going on in this world. I couldn't look back. You know, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And here I am Today. We are attempting to speed up hyper bitcoinization. That's it in a nutshell. Hyper bitcoinization is happening whether you like it or not. All money will tend to one, but we are just trying to make it, facilitate it and make the experience, make it as smooth and as quick as experience as possible. That's our mission.
- [01:07]
Walker
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs. My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin Podcast. The Bitcoin time chain is 875026 and the value of one bitcoin is still one bitcoin. Today's episode is Bitcoin Talk where I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and whatever else comes up. And today that guest is Prince Philip, the hereditary prince of Serbia and Yugoslavia and the chief strategy officer of Jan.3.
- [01:37]
Unknown
Philip is a fascinating and fantastic guy.
- [01:40]
Walker
Who I've had the pleasure of meeting in person several times and it was great to get him on the show and pick his brain. Today our conversation ranged across quite a lot of topics from nation state Bitcoin adoption to monarchy versus Democracy, top down versus bottom up Bitcoin adoption, Bitcoin strategic reserve, game theory, bitcoiner world leaders, big things coming in 2025 and a whole lot more. Before we dive in, do me a favor and subscribe to the Bitcoin podcast wherever you are watching or listening. But I personally recommend you listen on Fountain FM because not only can you send Bitcoin to your favorite podcasters to give value for value, but you can earn Bitcoin just for listening to podcasts. Check out bitcoinpodcast.net for episodes and additional resources. Head to the Show Notes to grab discount links for my sponsor, Bitbox. Or go directly to Bitbox Swiss Walker and use promo code Walker for 5% off. Send an email to helloitcoinpodcast.net if you have feedback or if you're interested in sponsoring the bitcoin podcast. And if you find the show valuable, consider giving value back by giving it a zap on Noster or a boost on Fountain. I truly appreciate it. Without further ado, let's get into this bitcoin talk with Prince Philip.
- [03:02]
Unknown
I'm not a. A live streaming pro, like, let's say, BTC sessions or. Or Nico and some of those guys, so I. I do what I can. I also. I need to get a. Like a Jamie, like Joe Rogan has. You know, that.
- [03:17]
Walker
That's.
- [03:17]
Unknown
That's. That's when you know you've made it as a podcaster, is when you can be like, hey, Jamie, can you set that up for me?
- [03:22]
Prince Philip
Exactly. And I've been listening to Peter McCormack. What's his guy called? He's got like, oh, yeah, can you. The thing is, just gets him to use chat GPT. It's like, I know.
- [03:30]
Unknown
I love it. No, Danny's.
- [03:33]
Prince Philip
Danny. Danny, yeah.
- [03:35]
Unknown
He's a. He's an awesome dude, and I was super happy to see that he's reinvigorating the what bitcoin did brand. Just because, like, that. I mean, that show was the one that I still to this day listened to the most in terms of bitcoin podcasts. And, you know, I. I think everyone was a little bit bummed that it was kind of like, oh, it's going away. I get, you know, Peter's whole rationale for doing it. Happy that he's, you know, crushing with Mr. Obnoxious. But when I saw Danny was coming back out with what bitcoin did, I was like, oh, this is. This is good.
- [04:05]
Prince Philip
The world needs more. Yeah. I haven't listened to first episode that was with Jeff Booth, I believe I just saw that recent.
- [04:13]
Unknown
I think he had Jeff Booth. He had Checkmate, and he had Rob Hamilton maybe as well.
- [04:20]
Prince Philip
Nice.
- [04:21]
Unknown
So he's, you know, he's crushing it. I firmly believe, you know, there's always, like, the meme like, oh, there's too many bitcoin podcasts. I firmly believe we do not have enough bitcoin podcasts until there are more bitcoin podcasts than traditional finance podcasts. And there are a lot of those. So we've got a long way to go, in my opinion.
- [04:40]
Prince Philip
What's the ratio?
- [04:43]
Unknown
I have to.
- [04:44]
Prince Philip
You check that one out. We can use ChatGPT. Where's your Danny?
- [04:48]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. Let's see. How many finance podcasts are there? Let's see. I'm my own Danny. I'm my own Danny. Jamie, let's see what ChatGPT says on this. I'm actually kind of curious. All right. Searching the web, it's challenging. Da, da, da. Okay. ChatGPT is not even giving me a straight answer. You know what? Chatgpt, you're, You're. You're done. But, you know, there's at least lists of top 100 finance only podcasts. And I mean, I have to imagine the number of. Total number of bitcoin podcasts is maybe a couple hundred right across different languages and everything. Sure. But we've. We've got a long way to go.
- [05:30]
Prince Philip
With the hard money podcast. Bitcoin podcasts. Bitcoin only.
- [05:36]
Unknown
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Oh, man, Philip, it is good to see you last. I'm trying to think. Last time we saw each other. It's been. It's been a while now. It's.
- [05:48]
Prince Philip
Last time we saw each other was El Salvador, maybe. No, no, no. We saw each other since then. I think it was El Salvador probably that years ago.
- [06:00]
Walker
Man, time flies.
- [06:02]
Unknown
That's. That's wild. Are you, Are you going to El Salvador for the plan B?
- [06:07]
Prince Philip
No, sadly not. So I've been invited and it's a shame. Well, I've been invited to another event. Not bitcoin. It's a Serbian event in Vienna for the Svetosavski Ball. That's like the Saint Sava bowl in, In. In Vienna, which is like a massive ball, Serbian organized ball that's been happening for. For. For I don't know how. How many decades now. But it's. It's like we're one of the guests sort of honors there. And it's right over the same days as. As El Salvador Saturday.
- [06:40]
Unknown
That's tough. It's one where you're kind of. Let's say you need to attend.
- [06:46]
Prince Philip
I have to attend. Especially if you've been invited to it, then. Yeah, for sure.
- [06:50]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [06:50]
Prince Philip
But there's. There will be more El Salvadors. I mean, there's adopting next year, and that will be, you know, I mean, Andy, this year, no. Salvador in January, it will be what's going to be around the 30th of January, whatever, whenever it is. Who knows what the price of bitcoin will be. But then adopting next year in November, who knows what the price of bitcoin will be there. But it's One of my crash might have crashed, so we might be picking up some cheap sats again, which I'm always hopeful of. It's ripping today.
- [07:19]
Unknown
It's funny you reach that point, and I haven't been in bitcoin for that long. It's been since, you know, 2020, when I finally, finally stopped ignoring bitcoin and went down the rabbit hole and decided to, you know, become humble and realize that I didn't know really anything about money. And even just since then, it's like the longer you get into it, at first you're like, I love seeing the price go up. Then a little bit later, you're like, I love seeing the price go down. Like, I want my dollars to buy me more sats. Like, I don't want these sats to be so expensive. But bitcoin doesn't care. It just keeps on chugging.
- [07:55]
Prince Philip
Exactly, man.
- [07:58]
Unknown
Well, you know, I was really. I'm glad we got the chance to do this today. I was just in your. I think I mentioned this to you. I was just in Serbia, actually, as part of a larger business trip in Europe. So that was my first time in Serbia. I was back and forth between Belgrade and Novosad. I wish I would have gotten a chance to do more sightseeing, but it was pretty much all business, unfortunately. So I'll have to make it back for a more relaxed trip in the future. Bring the family Apollo.
- [08:28]
Prince Philip
Definitely welcome here. It's, It's. It's a big, big country. There's a lot to visit here and come visit the palace. We just moved in a few months ago, and it's, It's. It's good. It's great out here. Obviously, we. We have. There's some issues going on with politically out here, but we're not going to go into that. We'll talk about bitcoin stuff.
- [08:49]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, that works. I mean, yeah, political issues are. That's the one thing that I think every country in the world has in common, or I should say citizens of every country.
- [09:00]
Prince Philip
Political issues really are derivatives of financial. Of money issues. So it's.
- [09:06]
Unknown
And. And that's a. That's kind of a. A perfect lead into talking about, you know, the name of this show, the bitcoin podcast, talking about bitcoin as money. We, you know, I think the first time I saw a clip of you, like, before we had met in person was the. You were on a Serbian talk show, I believe. And the clip went pretty viral because, you know, I remember one of the parts that was funniest to me was the host was basically like, you were just going through this like incredibly succinct summary of bitcoin, money, everything. And the host is kind of like shocked that you're giving this advice away for free. Like what? You're just, you're just telling people this and you're like, yeah, yeah, they, like, they need to know. Was that, was that the first time you had mentioned bitcoin in any sort of like a public setting?
- [09:57]
Prince Philip
It was. It wasn't the first time I came out as a bitcoiner. Now I talked about this before. No, it's the first time I came out and publicly I've like you. I became a maximist around 2020, but I first bought Bitcoin 2017, but at the same time was distracted by other stuff out there as a lot of people experience the same thing. And then 2020, when the whole, when the whole Covid mania happened, I thought I knew how the. I mean, I've said this spiel many times before, but I'll say it again. I mean I was working in traditional finance tradfi, as it's known in the bitcoin, for over a decade. Well, actually close to 15 years at that point. And you know, that kind of think, you know how it all works. But there's one thing a lot of people in tried for, I don't really know is what, what is money? And that's one thing I would start to question about 2020, when I just didn't question until 2008. I just thought corruption, I thought systemic corruption. I thought, yeah, this is just big cyclical bullshit and stuff. And then all this QEs came about. Couldn't quite wrap my head around that. That was around 2008, 9, 10, the euro debt crisis. Still was not really thinking about what is all this? You know, I'm just thinking, yeah, this is part of the way that we fixed off interventionism. Intervention was okay. I was still a bit into the whole Keynesian world and things like that. And then 2020, that's 2017, got introduced to bitcoin, bought realized that okay, there's a supply cap of 21 million. That's scarcity, that's an inflation hedge. That's wonderful, that's great. So what does that actually mean? But didn't really dig into it until 2020 when the whole stimulus BS happened, it started happening again to a next level where they were actually giving people checks in countries where normally they wouldn't really be giving people checks for, for very questionable circumstances. And I was Thinking, where is all this money going to lead? And yeah, so see what's happening today. So I started questioning bitcoin then. And then I started the old saying, as I always say is I started reading things like Bitcoin Standard Top 21 Lessons by Gigi, reading, reading his incredible Twitter threads as well. Going onto bitcoin Twitter, meeting the, you know, getting getting acquainted with the Maxis on Twitter and seeing, seeing them do their thing. Love, love and toxicity as well. You know, it's great. It was, it was hilarious and I started to get it bit by bit. Things then things to made more sense. I think one of the, one of the things I really started to make was proper clicking moment was understanding low time preference and understanding the difficulty adjustment. I don't know why those two things, but just were really beautiful. The low time preference thing was just basically to do with. Because it links in nicely with Monarchy and it links in nicely with just the world that we know, the instant gratification world that we live in. And the cure to that is something that is obviously of delayed gratification and the difficulty adjustment. Just the way that that worked out beautifully when it was proven how beautiful it worked out, how beautifully it. It works in the two when 20 in 2021 when China banned mining and you just saw the biggest downward adjustment ever and it just becoming more decentralized. Just thought that was just so cool. Antifragile at its finest.
- [13:27]
Unknown
Those two things for me I think were also. It was like it was reading the bitcoin standard and hearing or seeing how safe explained low time preference was really like something, like something shifted. It's the same thing. When I read the Price of Tomorrow by Jeff Booth and he said those simple words, technology is deflationary. And something clicks and once it clicks, it's like, nope, you can't forget that you learned that you are changed now for the better. I think everything makes so much more sense. But you also realize like, oh wow. You start to realize with the technology being deflationary, you start to realize the true extent of the theft that this fiat system enacts on people. Because if you think just, okay, if you just look at CPI inflation in the U.S. you think, oh, a couple percent a year. Even during the worst part of COVID yeah, it got a little bad for a second, but now you know it's come back down, right? And then you realize that no, it, it never comes back down. It compounds. And they're not just stealing from zero, they're stealing from a negative baseline. Everything should be getting cheaper and it's not. Why is that? And that for me was just like, whoa.
- [14:40]
Prince Philip
Like you look at, you look at the compound, you look at the graph, you look at the just getting bigger and bigger and then that's. And then you, then you realize that's actually not a very good measure of cp of CPI is not a good measure inflation. Then you start going down what Michael Saylor has to say. I know. I mean some, on most of most bitcoiners out there have to say that I realized that actually the numbers behind inflation are not accurate. How do they calculate those baskets? How do they replace goods with new goods that have less inflation? You realize that it's all one big game and we're all being had.
- [15:17]
Unknown
As George Carlin said, it's a big club and you ain't in it. And.
- [15:22]
Prince Philip
Yeah, well, as a royal, as a role, I thought I would have been in it. But things happen, things happen. Around the 2nd, around the 2nd world war probably leading up to the 2nd world war actually when my great grandfather was assassinated, I think, I think some people maybe didn't want us to be part of the club anymore. We were, yeah, we were representing something that was a bit greater than what was planned for post Second World War. But I don't want to, I don't want to speculate, I don't want to go into conspiracy theories over here. But there's, you know, why were monarchies taken out? Why all of a sudden were good book to read on this actually that will touch on this is book that safety and introduced him. You know about it very well. It's the democracy, the God that failed. And I know I've, I've. I brought this up in, in Noster the other day because I joined Noster recently. I actually got my key in the beginning 2023. It's not like Twitter where it shows you how OG you are. But get asked Milan from from Primal to see if he can get those keys up. But I didn't actually get involved start posting until, until like what about two months ago. But anyway, I saw this one post that Jack, former Twitter Jack, Jack Dorsey. Dorsey, yeah. He posted something like he says, yeah, freedoms, not kingdoms. And I know he was probably referring to freedoms in terms of Noster and not kingdoms like Twitter. But I just went in there and I said oh yeah, you know, I said something about actually, actually, oh yeah, he's still in the democracy phase. Wait till you get to the monarchy phase. And I just wanted to get discussion happening. And where was I Coming from this was that book the democracy God that failed. The first chapter is fantastic and expand training what low time preference is. And that led me to understand that why monarchies were taken down. I mean taken down. What was what happened post the creation of of the Federal Reserve after the decision was some was made in on Jekyll island. Then in 1913 creation of the Federal Reserve. Then you had this full blown out war which which which involved most European countries in very complex situations and relations to then post second first World War you had some of these monarchies being slowly wiped out to the point where the second World War then a lot of these monarchies became neutered. I say neutered. They turned away from being absolute monarchies to being constitutional parliamentary monarchies. And they were just the monarch part of the governance system was just a representation. They had some powers to annex to go to a check on the executive that was in case something horrible goes on. But no one ever exercised that. This governance model was taken out completely and replaced with. To sum it up as Hopper says, it's democratic republican. And you just have to look at what and well not why. You have to look at the facts pre First World War II, post First World War and understand that under monarchies there was a lot less taxation and under republics under democracies a lot more taxation. Why is that? Well that's the low time preference aspect kicking into into into the governance model of democracy, of monarchies. I should say. Monarchies are all about taking as little as possible today to leave as much as possible for your sons and your generations to come. You want to be that family, wants to hold that position for as long as possible. So their incentive is tied to the stability of the country. So you will want to tax your citizens, have very strong private property rights. So there's no revolts, there's no revolutions, there's no uprising. And if you can keep your citizens cool and free and responsible then you've got a great thing going on. And on top of that when that also was one of the reasons why it was probably messed with by ult outside forces is a monarchy is hard to control because a monarchy cares about its citizens and citizens only. Yes, it will have good foreign relations. That's what a monarch does. It has good foreign relations. It wants to limit amount of war, confrontation and so forth. Because those are costly, especially under a hard money standard. But then come in a loose money standard and with a demo and then come in democracy and then all of a sudden the incentives get reversed and outside Influences are. It's easier to be influenced by the outside. And I guess, look what we have today. I mean, just sum it up, we go into deeper.
- [20:25]
Unknown
But no, I mean, I think this is something I've talked with Seif about too, when he came on, because I think it's really fascinating. I think in the US especially, and this is just speaking from personal experience, we have a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the idea of monarchy because this is the United States of America. We kicked the British crown out, you know, no, we, we don't want any kings over here, et cetera, et cetera. And it's very easy to have that knee jerk reaction without thinking too much more deeply into it. But then as you said, the more I've started going down the, you know, the bitcoin rabbit hole, it leads you into these other rabbit holes of realizing that, hmm, okay, first of all, no system is perfect. We know that democracy certainly isn't because it tends to descend into mob rule eventually on a longer time scale. Right. Like this is. Are you familiar with Polybius? He's the Greek philosopher. He came up with the idea of anacyclosis.
- [21:24]
Prince Philip
Anacyclosis, yes.
- [21:25]
Unknown
Yep, yep. So for anyone that's, that's not familiar, it's basically these six stages that governments always go through. It's, you know, monarchy starts out with, you know, like a monarchy rule by one. They're typically benevolent. And then a kingship turned into kind of a tyranny where there's some corruption of the, of a monarchy that happens. Then we move to aristocracy, which is kind of a good thing at first rule by the best or a select few. But that descends into oligarchy and you know, the aristocracy is corrupted by a few, you know, people. And then that moves into again democracy, but then that often descends right back into mob rule after democracy is corrupted.
- [22:10]
Prince Philip
And so, and then, you know, repeat the intent to full blown autocracy. Autocracy, is it at the end? I think, yeah. But I remember someone posted that, posted that in, in, in the replies to my quote retweet against Jack Dorsey. And I said bitcoin fixes that. They didn't have bitcoin.
- [22:31]
Unknown
That's the interesting thing.
- [22:32]
Prince Philip
That's the interesting thing is that they didn't have, well, even under gold standard, gold standard led to fiat, but now fiat led to bitcoin because we had to fix it. Fix something. We have to fix it. And so I believe that now, given that the bitcoin is because of its mutability and it's hard to control. It will, it will lead to less opportunity for that to be continuing, continuing style driven inequalities and therefore influence monetary influence by the top. Over the, over the people who are. I'm trying to get my words out here nicely, but by those who are. Who, who, who are, who are at the bottom end of the, of the, of the, of the monetary, of the monetary pecking order. And I guess that's, that's kind of how these systems that you were talking about, one leads to the other basically. Because really there's a breakdown, there's a breakdown in financial incentives. Not incentives, but financial freedoms. And then that leads to the next stage. Whereas if you had Bitcoin from the start, I think you won't have such strong. You wouldn't even, probably even have, you would probably stay at the monarchy and aristocrats aristocracy stage of the.
- [23:55]
Unknown
That's the interesting thing because it's all about incentives, right? And if we know that there has never been a form of money that has not over a long enough time horizon basically been corrupted, as you said, even the gold standard. Great, sounds good. But that is what led to this fiat aberration. Every fiat currency eventually fails. I'm of the opinion that just about every revolution is ultimately a monetary revolution under the surface. Like you look at, I mean if you want to look at. Or the fall of an empire is also the fall of a money. If you look at Rome, the revolution, the sense of like, look at something like the French Revolution and the fiat inflation of the assignat, it's not like something to take the French Revolution example. It's not like it just happened out of a vacuum. And all of a sudden people said, ah, we don't have food. And look at these fat cats, they have food and they're, you know, breaking our backs and let's chop all their heads off. It's like, no, why did that happen? Why didn't they have food? Well, it's because they started inflating their currency and then they started imposing price controls and they started doing all the things that lead in only one direction and that's to an eventual collapse of the money. And when the money collapses and people can't buy food, they tend to not take that very well and they tend to ride in the streets and maybe, you know, sharpen their guillotines.
- [25:15]
Prince Philip
And so I'm going to say something against the French Revolution because that's when we had the first instances of communism coming into this, into us being introduced. And I think that Louis 16th and Mario Antoinette are getting a lot of.
- [25:31]
Walker
Bad rep. Bitcoin doesn't care if you're an individual, a corporation or a nation state. We all get the same rules and that means you, an individual can be sovereign when you hold your own keys.
- [25:44]
Unknown
And the best way to do that.
- [25:45]
Walker
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- [26:48]
Prince Philip
Because people claim I mean the historians today, let's call it the unread the un researched historians actually don't realize actually they're not the one. They weren't actually that that bad actually they Louis 16 in the first half of his reign was. His first half of the reign was marked by attempts to reform the French government like abolishing serfdom and reducing instances of the death penalty and like increasing tolerances of for non Catholics. And he tried to even end the state monopoly on grains to make bread cheaper. But this had its resulted in the bread in the elite having problems with him. And what happened was that there was a subsequent years there was a bad harvest which obviously drove the price of grain up and which led to the price of bread prices went up, there was food scarcity and that kind of just contributed more to the unpopularity of the monarchy which was driven by propaganda by an outside by outside forces wanting to take down the monarchy and replace it with something, you know, communism work by a group of people, the Jacobins who are basically the far the far left group who led base who were the basic ones Who. I'm not sure who's. You know, people think that the one, the individual, the person who's. Who's. Who's. Who should be thanked for communism is Marx, Engels. But I think there's other people behind that, but I'm not going to go into that. So. Yeah, even the whole phrase that Mar supposedly uttered when she said her people are suffering, you know, let them eat cake, that was never actually uttered by her at all. If you do your research, that was never uttered by her. Yeah, it's. It's kind of that they, they met a very horrible end because there was, as you said, it was driven by an elite group of individuals wanting to take over, take down the monarchy so they could be in control. And they used the uneducated masses, the, The. The mob to do their biddings for them. And this has happened. And in return, they promised the mob, the people, the uneducated, the uninformed, let's say uneducated, the uninformed public, better conditions. This has been repeated many times in history. It also happened with the Russian Revolution and the takedown of the, of the. Of. Of King of Tsar, Nikolai II the Romanovs by the Bolsheviks. Yeah. So again, driven by a change in. In monetary incentives and a change in system, which is communism. And the reason I'm mentioning this is because this is also close to my heart because kind of we also experienced. Luckily we didn't experience such a. A brutal end. The Carol George Riches are still alive now. Maybe not as many as we were in the past, but we're still alive and we're. We're here and some of us. One of us is a bitcoiner.
- [30:02]
Unknown
Philip, can you, can you actually talk.
- [30:04]
Walker
A little bit for maybe for folks.
- [30:05]
Unknown
Who are not familiar with you, who are not students of history or maybe have been. I don't know. I think you've been. You've been making the rounds pretty well. So I would imagine people would have to be a little bit living under a rock to not at least know of you at this point.
- [30:19]
Prince Philip
I was living under a rock in, Until a couple of years ago as well, so. And also for the record, I'm not, I'm not a hist. I'm not a historian. This is all stuff that I'm reading. I'm starting to be pointed in the right direction, hopefully be pointed in the right direction. What bitcoin does, as we talked about before, it's bitcoin. I mentioned this now at Bitcoin Mina, the conference that. It just came out of me. And I think I've probably heard it. A lot of bitcoin just hear stuff, then they just repeat it. But it sounded really cool because it's true. Bitcoin is 16 years, almost 16 years of unadulterated truth that no one has ever been able to manipulate change. It's immutable, it's completely. It's. It's a string of truth that's growing and growing. And the more it grows, the more it exposes the system, the more it. Who was it that was talking about this a few. Couple of years ago when I was getting orange pill? They're talking about how bitcoin ostracizes people. So people come into bitcoin wanting to change bitcoin, but it ends up changing them. And those with the egos who think they can change it maybe with a bit of money or so forth, that fiat mindset realize that they can't. So they end up getting ostracized. So it kind of exposes people, it acts like a truth serum. Bitcoin is like a truth serum and it just exposes your, not your weaknesses. It exposes bad behavior, it exposes intention, intentional, bad moral behaviors that are typical that typically rewarded by the fiat system. But anyway, so going back, going back to. I am not a historian and my background is that I am, I guess, yeah, I'm a prince, but from a non functioning monarchy. Because our monarchy was abolished in the 1940s at the end of the Second World War and it was replaced with communism. My father, if there was a monarchy right now, my father would be king, his father. So my grand, my grandfather was King Peter ii, the last king of Yugoslavia at the time. That's why maybe in your Twitter. My Twitter it says Prince Philip, hereditary Prince Philip of Serbia and Yugoslavia. Because technically our last title was Yugoslavia. But if the monarchy was to be reinstated, there would be no, there's no such thing as Yugoslavia and it would be replaced. It would be. Prince Philip, would be Prince Philip of Serbia. Officially, the history of my, of my family goes back of the Kara Djordjevic dynasty, goes back to 1804. And that was the first Serbian uprising against the Ottoman Empire. Serbia, like many other Balkan countries, including countries like Romania where Carlos formed, places like that, Bulgaria, Greece, all these countries in the area were under Ottoman oppression for centuries. The Ottoman Empire was a huge empire that even lasted up until the 1920s. I believe it's the last record, I think. Anyway, again, not the historian, but in 1804 there was a gathering that happened near Belgrade, not too far Away from Belgrade there was a gathering of individuals of Serbian officers and generals of the, of the, of the secret army that decided that enough was enough. And they wanted to, they wanted to lead an op. They wanted to move for an, for an uprising, a strategic uprising against the Ottomans. And there was a democratic vote between these, these individuals that met in. This is in the heart of Sumadia. This is in near. This is about. Yeah, an hour and a half away from Belgrade. They met and there was two, There was three rounds of voting and on the third round, the first, the first person that was elected thought that maybe he was too, he was too diplomatic. The second person was maybe he was too connected to the, to the, to the, to the Ottomans. So it wouldn't have been a good move. And the third person was Karagorgia. And they were like, okay, great. He's great because he's ruthless and he's, he's very strategic and he doesn't take any prisoners. Okay, let's go with Kara Giorgio. Kara Giorgio was like, don't know why. I don't, I don't get his, his features. But he was like 6 foot, over 2 meters, like 2 meters tall, dark hair, big, brave character. And he led the first rev. The first uprising, I should say, against the Ottomans. And he plowed through the Ottomans and liberated Serbia from Ottoman rules. So if you look at a map around 1804, one of these progression maps, you'll see that around 1804 then Serbia just popped into existence in the sea of Ottoman Empire. You just see Serbia like right in the middle, like a little island in the middle. He was then assassinated. After six or seven attempts, he was finally taken down by an ax few several times. And there was a subsequent second uprising in. Because obviously the Turks fought back. The Turks, the Ottomans fought back. And then that was. That was led by the Obranovic family, the Milos Abranovic who then they then set up. Those are the two recent dynasties of Serbia of Serbia. Then the Brenovich ruled for a certain period of time. The Kara Georgevich ruled for a certain period of time. Then the Abramovich and then Abramovich were taken out. Basically. I won't. Not going to go into too much detail, but the story goes that they weren't taking, they weren't taking care of their soldiers very well. So there was some inside uprising happening there. So they were assassinated. And in King Peter, this, the. The first of King Peter, the first Kara George. So my great, great grandfather was coronated and became king nineteen nineteen oh two, I believe. And he was tasked with the. With. With a mission to try and take a. To try and take Serbia's not influence auster. Hungary had a lot of influence over Serbia to try and get that influence away from that influence and do more trade with the east and the west, with Russia, French and the Brits to try and become a little bit more independent. And he did that and he was very successful. He spent most of his life in exile. In exile running around with a secret name. He was known as Peter Mitch. And he was, he was. He spoke. He spoke Serbian with a. With a. With a French accent because he was brought up in France as well. He was. He was an incredible figure. He led then led after. He was. After he was king. He helps Serbia become more independent, more trade, gain more wealth. And he was actually quite a pioneer in. Pioneer to say he was actually quite a progressive at the time. He was a classical liberal. He actually had the idea of reforming the monarchy a little bit. So there is a little bit more. I want to say a little bit more state. But he understood that there's a need for a reduced state, but obviously that state needed. But it was still like an absolute monarchy in a sense, but with. He had that book or Essay on Liberty by John Stuart Mills translated. That was his vision. He had that translated from English into Serbian. You don't have the eloquence to talk about what his vision was exactly, but he was very much about the individual. He was very much about this sovereign individual. Like from a very. From a very. From. From. From quite a early start, but realized that you need to sort of progress a little bit with. With the governance model and with. With a monarchical governance model and so move away from absolute monarchy to have something more in. As more of the classical liberals idea that states should be there, but as a service provider to its people. Kind of what Prince Hand II wrote in the state of this in the third millennium. Obviously that's a bit more advanced, but that's. That was his idea. King Peter the First was a very heroic character. He led Serbia to re. Liberate Kosovo in the Balkan wars in 1908, 1910, 1912. And then again he went to the front lines of the First World War. By that point he was in the 70s and he was very tired and he basically just said, okay, I've had enough. He beat the Austin Hungarians in the First World War. He. He did a lot. And he then handed over administration duties to his son, King Alexander Alex, Crown Prince Alexander, who was my great grandfather, and then King Peter II the First died 9th 2021. I mean, sorry, 1921 and then King Alexander came to power. He then took things to the next level and formed Yugoslavia. First it was. He formed the Kingdom of Slovenes of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, and Slovenia. And then. Then it included Bosnia, Montenegro and Macedonia. And this was as a way to unify the Balkan countries, as an act of strength to strengthen them against Austro Hungarian and other influences. And it was very popular, although there was some infighting and stuff. He kept it together as a unified monarch does very. As a unifying force. People. It was very prosperous. We were living under a gold standard. People were making wealth. People were private property rights were very much respected asset. People were creating a lot of assets. It was actually a beacon of ideological hope to the rest of the world. I look at Yugoslavia, they've got six nations and three or four religions all. All living pretty peacefully under one crown. And he was then had. He had to be taken out. In 1934, he was taken out. The first assassination ever caught on camera. And his cousin became the regent king. My grandfather was too young at the time. Then when my grandfather became of age in the late 30s, it was first second world war and that mess. And then my father was born in exile, 1945 in London. And then he married my mother, who is a Brazilian princess. Another story. And then that led to me. Yeah, to my older brother being born 1980 in Chicago. Then my twin brother and I in 1982 in Washington. And then that led. Okay, so then that led to 2002, after I became public about bitcoin. And then my older brother, in April 2022, he abdicated in my favor. So I'm now the next in line after my father.
- [41:34]
Unknown
Well, first of all, it's just a. It's just an incredible story to have that much family history that you can look back on and not just, you know, not just any family either one that is quite centrally positioned to a lot of massive historical shifts.
- [41:54]
Prince Philip
Right.
- [41:54]
Unknown
I mean, to think that what always what I found just so amazing after meeting you and getting to chat with you and share some beers with you, looking forward to the next time. We can do that, by the way.
- [42:05]
Prince Philip
But me, too.
- [42:06]
Unknown
The fact that you have this. You are a prince. You come from literally this incredible legacy, this incredible history. And at this moment in time, at this moment in history, you have decided that bitcoin is the thing that you want to focus on, the thing that you can of, because you could be doing any number of things. And you decided that Bitcoin is the thing that matters to you. You're now operating as chief Strategy Officer of Jan3. Jan3 has its name day coming up fairly soon here. But I mean, what was. I guess maybe the question is, why Bitcoin? Of all the things that you could focus on, of all the things that could demand your attention and your time, why Bitcoin?
- [42:57]
Prince Philip
Good question. Truth. I was when. How to formulate this. Being born in exile and never actually thinking there would be a hope that we would return back to Yugoslavia. When I was younger was still Yugoslavia. Seeing that because I was born after Tito died. He died in 1980. And in the 80s and 90s, you saw the subsequent destruction and disintegration of Yugoslavia. These horrible battles that happened that were only stoked by the West. I would say, sorry, my phone's running out of. Sorry, the. That was the ninth that you saw. Horrible, horrible wars. And you see on the news, you see all this destruction, death. And I wasn't very. Wasn't very. It wasn't. I wasn't proud to be a Serb I. Or Yugoslav at the time. It was just that you was. It was. There was no hope. You thought there was going to be no hope. This country is just complete. It's completely disintegrated. I just didn't think I'll ever move back there. So I started building my. As a. From a young age, my focus was just building my life in the United Kingdom, living in London. And then one thing led to another. I was working in finance. I traveled the world. Uh, then when I met my wife. 2017. Okay, so 2021, I should. No, 2001. I should say that there was 2000. October 2000 is when Milosevic got ousted and he. That allowed then an opportunity for my father and stepmother to move back to Belgrade and move into the palace. I then moved back with them. I stayed in London because at that point I was like 19, 20 years old. I was going to university in London. I wanted my life outside of Serbia. I still went to visit Serbia at that point. I still went to go on holidays and went to see my father to spend time with him here and there. But I was more mainly focused on being outside of Serbia. I didn't have that feeling of being a Serb yet. Then as I got more experienced, as I went through my education became more. As I became older, I guess not older. What's the word? As I became. No, just. Just as I grew up, I started to think about Serbia more and more. And I started to think about my Roots more and more. But it wasn't until I met my wife in 2006, wife to be 2016 and we married 2017 and had our son 2018, where something really woke up inside me. And that also tied around the time when I discovered Bitcoin in 2017. Bought Bitcoin 2017. I knew about it before, but didn't actually push by until 2017. And when I married my wife and had our son, there was a few things that were happening around with my family since I was a kid that I wasn't very. Let's say there was a few things I needed to find out, some truth finding, fact finding missions. And I got to work. I was like, okay, I want to be back in Serbia at some point, but I'm still working in London. I still have my finance job in London. It's paying me well. It's paying me for my life to bring up my child and it pays for my wife to do that, you know, so. And I have. And things are okay here in London, but at some point I've got to move back. You know, speaking to my wife about this, then as I'm finding out stuff, as I'm trying to figure out what we're going to do, then the whole COVID pandemic hit. And that presented itself an opportunity that meant that because we were all sent to go be work to work from home, we were all working online and I was sitting on my desk next to my bed. I remember that. And then I was thinking like after a week or two of doing this, I was like, hey, I could be doing this anywhere in the world. That was around April, March, April 2020, that I go over into the bedroom, I speak to I my wife is playing with our son who's about just turned 2 at the time. And I was like, hey, we're moving to Serbia. When? I mean, as soon as possible. Okay. So that's about the time when I started questioning the what was going on finance in the world with the finance. What we talked about earlier on, about, about the whole stimulus, about qe, about the COVID shenanigans and all that. And that was like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to be doing what I'm doing now, but in Serbia. Let's move to Serbia. So we moved to Serbia. And that's when I started to study more about bitcoin and realizing, well, this is actually amazing. Bitcoin is. It's the thing I've been looking for it's that thing, that truth that I've been looking for. I've always had an innate feeling since I was young that things were not right in this world. And I couldn't quite put my finger on it. We always led down different excuses and explanations, but never to the source of it. And thankfully, thanks to the lens that bitcoin has given me to understanding what bitcoin is and learning about monetary history, about what money is, that provided me the lens to understand a lot about what's going on in this world. I couldn't look back. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. And here I am today.
- [48:56]
Unknown
I love it. And I'd love to talk a little bit too about what you're doing with Jan3 because I think that first of all it's fascinating because the great thing about bitcoin is that because this is an opt in network because there's no CEO, there's no marketing team, there's no nothing. There's developers and there's users and there's all different levels of users from the individual to the corporation to the nation state. Right? But bitcoin doesn't care. It treats everyone the same. And what you guys are doing with Jan3 is I think really fascinating because it's, you know, while many approach bitcoin adoption from a, let's say a bottom up standpoint, there's this Gen 3 approach which is a little bit more of top down, but I think with many of the same ideals in mind. And that's kind of the beautiful thing. Can, can you talk a little bit about the kind of like what is, what is the mission of Jan3? What is the goal of this organization? What do you, what do you guys hope to achieve?
- [50:00]
Prince Philip
We are attempting to speed up hyper bitcoin. That's it in a nutshell. Hyperbaricalization is happening whether you like it or not. All money will tend to one. But we are just trying to make it, facilitate it and make the experience, make it as smooth and as quick as experience as possible. That's our mission. As you said, bitcoin is a bottom up strategy. It's a grassroots strategy. There's never been such a decentralized grassroots bottom up strategy like this that's ever been discovered and it's beautiful. But as you also correctly said, we are looking at some top down strategies as well. And that is the niche that we found. What Samson found when he was presenting the bitcoin bonds in El Salvador, the volcano bonds, and realized there's a niche here. This is an opportunity to that we, that we can able to, that we should be able to speak into nation states around the world and get them to understand what bitcoin is. As you said rightfully as well, Bitcoin doesn't care about politicians. Bitcoin doesn't care about anyone. Just bitcoin just does bitcoin. But we have to teach people that bitcoin can really help. Help you. Bitcoin is there to make you financially sovereign, to make you financially free. And the more you understand that and the more, the more you, you look into it, the more you study it, the clearer it becomes. So we, Our objective at Jan3 is to educate nation states or politicians, be it from presidents, prime ministers, ministers to members of parliament about how bitcoin can help them and their people. And we try to figure out ways, plans of how, what sort of adoption they can, they can come to agreement with. And as you know, bitcoin has many forms of adoption from just mining it then to what's the big buzzword these days is the strategic asset reserves. So as a store of value to what El Salvador did three years ago, which is moe medium of exchange. Obviously we want all three to happen, but at the same time, bitcoin doesn't really care if any of those happens. It's just going to happen. But we're trying to teach politicians that bitcoin can be super useful and can help them achieve the goals that they want with their people. And this is also the thing that you're saying that bitcoin doesn't have a marketing team. Well, we are the marketing team. Not saying we Jan3, I'm saying all of us here, all of us maxis, whether we irritate people or not, we are driving the message of what bitcoin is. And that's the beautiful thing about bitcoin. It doesn't have money to pay marketing team, you have to, it's. That's the beautiful incentive. One of the incentives of bitcoin is it quite often, you know, new people who first get into bitcoin, they then they first understand that they don't want, they don't want to do anything else apart from shout about it. And then you get to the point where like actually I can't be boss, let them figure it out. Which is kind of the case for a lot of us. But we are passionate about bitcoin and we're going to keep on talking about bitcoin and we've just figured out ways to monetize that or incentivize that, that drive to, for people to understand Bitcoin. And that's where bitcoin has become very entrepreneurial and creative when it comes to how to bring bitcoin to the next level. So January uses this opportunity to meet with nation states as a way to market bitcoin as a way to give it credibility. Because we live in a world where people are very trustworthy towards the state. So if they see a president or prime minister or someone in, in charge talking or being photographed or, or, or mentioning bitcoin, that's gonna, that's gonna help with adoption, that's gonna help with, with its credibility. And it's always, even if we just get a picture with the president, you're going to get other people around, maybe another president in the country next door saying hey, what are they doing? What are they talking about? So you're going to get that game theory thing happening as well. So it's just another way of marketing bitcoin to get these, these conversations happening. But you know, that's our top down approach is just to get conversations happening, education, understanding how bitcoin can bring wealth to your country by mining it. Because energy is money, money is energy and how you can do you create these, finance these incredible financial bitcoin backed financial products like Bitcoin bonds to fund infrastructure projects just by using these surplus or wasted energy or renewable, new, renewable energy sources from your countries. So you end up taxing your citizens less and further developing your infrastructure. It's beautiful, right? That's the things that we're trying to promote with Jan3, but there's also the other thing is that we also have our bottom up tool as well. And that is Aqua. Aqua's Aqua Wallet is what's going to help drive the adoption for the next billion people. Because what we're talking about before is the top down. Now we're talking about bottom up. Aqua is trying, we're trying to make it the user interface, the user experience as easy as possible. Aqua came out January 3rd this year and it's organically grown to about 50k or maybe even close to 60k downloads without any marketing at all spent on it. The only marketing we've done is on Twitter and other social media platforms. We will soon have a budget for some other marketing, but we will do underground guerrilla style marketing. Sorry, we're not going to sponsor podcasts.
- [56:01]
Unknown
That's all right. I won't hold it against you.
- [56:02]
Prince Philip
Thanks. We're going to get, we're going to get it. We're Going to shove it in the hands of people and get their hands dirty and, and transfer some sats from one person to another and get them to understand Bitcoin by, by, by seeing it work in, in the flesh. Um, so I know, I don't know if people are aware of Aqua. Aqua uses Aqua. The, in the, the, the face of Aqua is like it splits Bitcoin into two sections into the savings account which is Bitcoin on the main chain and then your spendings account which is then Bitcoin on liquid which is also used for lightning transactions. But there's another thing and this might upset a lot of the maximus with us but there's USD, there's another spending account section there which is usdt but that is also all held on Bitcoin liquid sidechain. Reason why we are using USDT on the wallet is because usdt whether you like it or not is used more for transactionally in Latin America than Bitcoin is. So a lot of people use USDT and don't really care about Bitcoin. So we're trying to make that experience for the USDT user easy but also have Bitcoin on the same, only Bitcoin on the same face. So they see the opportunity to then transfer over onto Bitcoin as a savings account. So we have going from the top to the bottom savings account, Bitcoin main chain spending account, Bitcoin on liquid for lightning transactions as well and then USCT spendings account. And then we have great technology that will do the swaps from one to another using bolts and atomic swaps that will, you're able to then move from one to the other seamlessly. And that's just the start. We'll also, we also have the optionality to buy Bitcoin on it and also sooner or later next year at some point to get debit cards, Bitcoin debit cards and have the whole marketplace for Bitcoin and make it as easy as possible. And that's where we get the fees from is from the swaps and also from other marketplace activities that we'll do. It's and we're trying to make it as easy as possible for the user to to use as our marketing says on the, when you open the Bitcoin, the Aqua wallet, sometimes it says a wallet your grandmother can use and of course okay when it and it's self custodial so it's your keys, your coins and it's open source as well.
- [58:39]
Unknown
And for anyone who has not tried Aqua I would really Highly recommend it. I have been using it since it was released and very much enjoy it. It's a smooth, smooth wallet experience. It is. And also as far as the USDT part goes, I want to point out that it's very important that you guys are doing USDT on liquid on Bitcoin sidechain. Not on Tron, not on Ethereum. You're doing it on liquid.
- [59:05]
Prince Philip
Here's the brilliant thing, right, because as you know, USDT Works has a much bigger network and it was. And it's functioning on shitcoin rails like erc20 and tron and things like that. So you can actually from those shitcoin rails transfer to your Aqua wallet. But it's going to appear as Bitcoin liquid. So we're siphoning away from the shitcoin chains and when it's on our chain, when it's in our wallet, in your wallet, in Apple, it comes out as bitcoin liquidity. And when making that experience, it super easy, you know, you. We're open right now. It's open to Tron and ERC20, but soon it's going to be open to the other, the other USDT shitcoin rails like I think Binance and Solana Polygon and yeah, things, things. Words I don't like to say, but it's true. But the great thing is that bitcoin on, I mean Bitcoin USDT on bitcoin side chain is the most efficient, the cheapest and the best. And on the other shitcoin rails they are now starting to have issues. I not technical enough to discuss it, but you can see that they're having fee issues and operability issues. I will defer to someone else more technical to talk about that, but we're seeing the opportunity now that, I mean you've seen what's happening now that you've seen a lot of the shitcoin is now jumping onto Bitcoin now. They're going on to layer two as the new thing we're building on Bitcoin. I've seen accounts out there like shitcoin accounts, like from two, three years ago. They'd say, yeah, they're all about Ethereum this and Solana that and all this and that. And then they realized that their price shitcoin is not really the thing that was meant to be. And then all of a sudden they have, oh yeah, we're building on Bitcoin now.
- [61:00]
Unknown
Yep. Well, it turns out. Go ahead.
- [61:04]
Prince Philip
No, I'm just saying it doesn't change anything. It doesn't change anything for us. It just shows that it's all going to go to one. And so eventually we're just going to make it easier. That's the whole idea. Is that why we have this product is we're going to make it easier for people to transfer from whatever USDT shitcoin rail onto USDT Bitcoin and it's going to be protected by the liquid federation, which is another great thing. That's another great layer. One of the only two or three layer twos that actually work.
- [61:37]
Unknown
And for those who have not tried liquid either USDT on Liquid or bitcoin on Liquid, I would really recommend you check it out. The Liquid network has been operating as a federation for a number of years very successfully and I know that there's often a knee jerk reaction with some of this stuff to say, oh well that's you know, usdt who needs it? Just use Bitcoin. And the reality is that a lot of people in the world not still wants that. Right. And so why not give them which Aqua does an opportunity to use USDT on the liquid network on a bitcoin side chain versus I think most of Liquid or excuse me, most of USDT's volume is on a lot of it's on Tron. Right. The majority ERC 20. So yeah, I love it. Siphon that off, pull it off, bring the monetary energy over to Bitcoin and give them a great user experience. And again I would, if you want, I would highly recommend.
- [62:34]
Prince Philip
Yeah and if you, if you want to pay in those other shitcoin side chains then it will, it will easily do that for you. But while you're holding in the wallet, everything is nice and clean. Bitcoin.
- [62:45]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [62:45]
Prince Philip
And going on to liquid, I'm not technical enough to talk about this but liquid is also a great tool for, for easing the transition from tradfi to Bitcoin because you can do so many things on liquid that you, that you can do in tradfi that you can't do anything anywhere else. And that's going to help drive adoption and do it in a very, in a, in a very undisruptive, seamless, hopefully undisruptive way. The idea is not to have an abrupt like, okay, we have tradfi one day and then we have bitcoin the next day. No, no, it's never going to be like that. It's going to. Adoption happens in peaks and troughs and wins and loses here and there where we have layer two solutions like liquid that will help that Transition in a smoother way where you can build those products that you can get on Trad 5 but actually backed by bitcoin and you can do your bitcoin bonds on bitcoin liquid as well. It's a great layer two solution. It just gives me so much hope having that liquid and lightning as solutions to. Not solutions as. Yeah, that's solution sorry to how we grow for adoption purposes.
- [64:02]
Unknown
Well, it's super interesting looking at the nation state landscape right now and I think it's great that you guys just as gen 3 you have this kind of multi, multi pronged approach of yes, top down talking to decision makers, politicians, leaders, but also hey, we're giving a bottom up solution aqua at the same time and then with the kind of integration of the liquid network as well. This is something I talked with Suriname presidential candidate Maya Parbou about. You know, she's looking at. She's fantastic and I truly hope that she is that she wins the election. I have a lot of faith in her. She's. But this is what she wants to do. Right. She wants to try and truly have the separation of money and state. But also to use these tools that we have available on bitcoin on liquid as well to be able to provide just a better, let's say a better user experience as a citizen for people. Which is an amazing thing. And I'm curious as you're looking at the nation state landscape, I guess what is the state of nation state adoption right now? How are you guys looking at it? Are the conversations you're having taking a different tone now that bitcoin is really, you know, we're at over 100k.1 million.
- [65:16]
Prince Philip
You know, let's say that's 2024 started off with a bang with ETFs being approved.
- [65:21]
Walker
Yeah.
- [65:22]
Prince Philip
And just for the record, I'm not for ETFs because that's not getting to Bitcoin directly and ETFs is. It's highly. What's the word I'm looking for. It's very much still tied to the, to the traditional financial system. But it's great for adoption and it's great for number go up and number go up is what that ultimately does drive adoption and people getting into bitcoin what got me into bitcoin in the first place and I'm sure many other people. So you know, people want to increase their wealth and when you see numbers go up, it's always a good thing. And then we stick around for the monetary renaissance. So the ETFs did create a lot more conversations then which was, I think was fantastic was when Trump did a 180 on Bitcoin at the beginning of summer and he, at the, at. I don't know whether it was at the bitcoin conference or is it somewhere else, but when he uttered those words, you know, your right to self custody, that was huge. A former president, now president Lex saying that that is huge. Obviously that. I mean, I don't know whether he fully understands bitcoin or not, but I'm presuming that his children, Baron Eric, I met Eric the other day actually briefly. Nice guy. Get Bitcoin. I actually believe that they actually truly get bitcoins. Whether they're 100% maximist or not. I noticed not too sure, but they get bitcoin. Maybe that they're, they're at the investor stage. I don't want, I don't want to speculate or anything, but yeah, they get bitcoin. They understand its importance. But also if you tie it back to what it means for the, for, for, for America and, and for elections is that it's a huge voter base. Now if you have about, I think in America, you know better. You're, you're, you're, you're in America right now. There's about 18 million people who own Bitcoin or some other shit coin. And of those 80 million people who own Bitcoin or some other shit coin, some of them probably have a lot of their wealth tied to it. So they will vote with their wealth. So it's a huge voter base and it's also a hard voter base to quantify because, yeah, mainly young people, millennials and Generation X or whatever they call them and the little ones, but they, they are, they will only want people to, they will only want candidates that are positive towards crypto in general. Shitcoins and well, mainly bitcoin. Well, hopefully it will obviously get to, hopefully they'll get to the point of actually, which actually, you know, I can't take away too much from the horrible administration that was the Biden administration. They did recognize Bitcoin as a commodity and they did separate it from the rest, which was great at one point. So I give them some credence to that. But then there was sudden Ethereum managed to get into that category. So then you realize, yeah, that's shady, but okay, it's something that, the fact that they recognize Bitcoin as a commodity and it set a precedence for the rest of the world because whatever the SEC does, many of the others, financial regulators around the world will hopefully copy. Just don't copy the Ethereum part. Yes. So the conversations after that, after Trump started to talk, talking about it and then as soon as Trump was elected, we've had a lot more conversation, a lot more interest. We've already since that, since then had a lot of conversations around the world with many smaller countries and some, maybe larger countries and I'm not going to allude to any, any announcements or anything like that, but maybe 20, 25 we could have some, some, some, some good news.
- [69:16]
Unknown
May I? Without, without you obviously disclosing any specifics because I don't want to put you on the spot for that. Can you say in terms of, I guess in terms of good news more broadly, what does that look like for you guys? Does that look like strategic bitcoin reserves for certain countries? Does that look like mining operations?
- [69:36]
Prince Philip
You'll see, you'll see, you'll see an ever increase in mining operations and you'll see and you will definitely see strategic bitcoin reserves. Yeah, I think now there's a race happening right now as we speak. I mean it's. And, but when it comes to media of exchange, that is, that's a tough one.
- [69:59]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [69:59]
Prince Philip
But given it's. Bitcoin is acting nowadays when people. It sells better as a store of value right now than it does as medium exchange. Even though bitcoin whole thesis is peer to peer electronic cash system, it seems that the store of value, parts of it because of its scarcity is what it's bringing a lot of people because that's where the number go up. That's where the number, numbers go up is, is driving adoption.
- [70:31]
Unknown
Well, I think too the, the, the scarcity, I mean and not just scarcity, it is absolute, absolutely finite. Right. We don't, there's nothing else like that. I mean you could even say gold. Okay. You know, gold is, gold is scarce. There's a finite amount on Earth. But. Okay, but then how far out do we go? Do we go to the nearest asteroid that is chocked full of enough gold to make everyone a billionaire? You know, there's different levels to that scarcity of gold. You know, do we start extracting gold from the saltwater in the ocean where it's present and is just requiring enough energy to be able to extract it? Okay, so how. Yeah, it's scarce, but not in the absolute way that bitcoin is. And I think that this is where you see the game theory of.
- [71:12]
Prince Philip
Right.
- [71:13]
Unknown
Both individual. But then, you know, for the Purposes of this conversation, nation state adoption start to play out. As you said, there is a race. I think that everyone has been very much put on notice right now. I think also from a corporate perspective, Michael Saylor has put everyone on notice for some years now. He hasn't been hiding this. This has been very public. He's been saying, this is what I'm doing, this is how I'm doing it. You should do it too. And you see some other, you know, corporations picking up that mantle. Some are scientific mara riot now a few others. But at the nation state level, I think there's, at least from my perspective, there seems to be a growing acknowledgement even hearing the way that somebody like Putin is now talking about bitcoin, saying, who can stop bitcoin? Nobody. There's an acknowledgment that this thing is here to stay and that this is a race. Right. That this is. There's some urgency here because the first mover, El Salvador, you could argue was the absolute first mover. Okay. Kingdom of Bhutan as well, is, you know, mined a ton of bitcoin with excess hydropower. But in terms of, let's say G7 players, the first mover will have a massive advantage.
- [72:22]
Prince Philip
Correct.
- [72:22]
Unknown
Is that what you're seeing too?
- [72:23]
Prince Philip
Well, that's what we, what we'll see. It's as we said, bitcoin doesn't really care. But in terms of driving, if one of the G7 adopts it as a strategic asset reserve or as a medium of exchange properly, then you will see others and, or you will see price go up. Then you'll get Samson's Omega candle in action.
- [72:45]
Unknown
Yeah, he's waiting for it.
- [72:48]
Prince Philip
He's waiting for it. Yeah. Now it's. Yeah, sorry, it's. No, it's just fascinating to see how quickly it's moving now with this cycle that when I first got into it properly last cycle, I mean I first got into it two cycles ago, but when I first started understanding what bitcoin was. And that's when, that's when shortly after is when you saw the likes of El Salvador adopting it and, and Michael Saylor doing his, his, his corporate adoption of bitcoin. But then you're. Now that you have to wait. Now those two country, a country and corporate. And company, sorry, El Salvador and Microstrategy, where I guess with the guinea pigs now we're now in the second cycle. I think people are probably waiting to see how that would plan out. And it's obviously working very well for those two countries. I mean Countries for that country and that company. So I think now you'll see the next round of adoptions. But having said that, you're still going to get a lot of people that are going to be driving away from it and a lot of people still have bitcoin derangement syndrome and will always have it. I think there's a very good article by Jesse. How do you pronounce. Sell his name? His name.
- [74:16]
Unknown
Oh, Croesus.
- [74:17]
Prince Philip
Croesus, yes. Jesse Crosis, Yeah.
- [74:19]
Unknown
Jesse or Jesse Meyers. His pseudonym is Croesus.
- [74:24]
Prince Philip
Crosis. That's it. Never met the guy, but great fan of what he's written. And there's one article, I forget the name but it's about why yuppies don't like bitcoin.
- [74:33]
Unknown
Why the yuppie elite dismiss bitcoin.
- [74:36]
Prince Philip
You know. Yup, that's the one.
- [74:38]
Unknown
It's a great article.
- [74:39]
Prince Philip
I think it's one of the best articles out there. Really. I think it's definitely on a two read list for many people getting into bitcoin because it really gives you understanding of why there's this managerial class out there that it drives them crazy. And that's the issue that we have also when, when we're doing, when we're trying to reach out to nation states. We don't, we can't. I have, as a member of royal family, I have, I have certain ability to open doors and that's great. But even that you go reach out to someone and create a diplomatic channel with the country and say you want to talk about bitcoin, it's not going to get anywhere. So even that those top down conversations actually happen from bottom up efforts. They usually happen from people on the ground, bitcoiners on the ground who've identified a politician, a leader or someone who might be interested in bitcoin. And so they need help so they come to us and then we create a telegram group and that telegram group we have some conversations and next thing what happens is we end up maybe having a meeting with the president or the prime or the. Or whatever a government official or, or individual. And that that all happened from bitcoin is on the ground in that country. That's what happened in the case with Maya in Suriname. That she led us to the introduction to the government there. I didn't go but Samson went and very interesting meetings that happened there. And they were talking, oh yeah, maybe we'll do strategic reserve. But 1% our treasuries in there. And then I think Maya then saw all this Happening but the way the meetings were led and dealt with and says, you know, I'm going to do this on my own. This country is, this country needs, needs, needs better leaders. And she's up for the job. She understands what's needed, she knows what's, what the people, what the people need. And I don't think the people quite understand what, what they need yet. But we're going to, we're helping get the message across with her. So if anyone out there just helped to help Maya in her journey to try and educate the public and hopefully she might win a position as a leader of her country.
- [76:57]
Unknown
So, yeah, I hope she does. And you know, that's the really cool thing now is that I think that there's a new generation of leaders that are starting to make themselves known. Maya is one of them.
- [77:11]
Prince Philip
And I mean, Bukele was the. One of the first. Exactly, yeah. And I think it's going to take a couple of. So it's going to as. As it takes a couple of bitcoin cycles. It's going to take a couple of. A couple of global election cycles. And you know, global elections happen every say democratic elections happen usually every four to five years on average. As they realize, as price goes up and new candidates come in and they start to get educated and stuff and they realize that they need bitcoin on their platforms, then that will, Sorry, that will ultimately drive adoption and you will earn. You will see more candidates in the next five to 10 years. You will see candidates putting bitcoin on their platforms as things that they're running for. You'll get more Myers, hopefully. And you'll get, and you will get. Yeah, you will, you will get, you will get, you will get some more and hopefully end up with more killers out there.
- [78:10]
Unknown
What are your thoughts about Milei in Argentina? Do you think that he's. Because he's obviously, I mean, he's a, an Austrian economist. Right. He's a libertarian. He has spoken very favorably about bitcoin. He's an intelligent guy, clearly. Do you think that Argentina is going to be in a place to make any sort of moves from a strategic level?
- [78:33]
Prince Philip
They've already made moves on mining as well. So now they've actually. With their national energy company, forget the name of it. We met with the energy company when, where we were in, when I. Two years ago. And they have a division that's mining bitcoin. I think they've ramped up operations there, which is encouraging. But then going back to Milei. Milei, yeah, he is a Rothbardian but he's a, he's, he's not quite focused on bitcoin yet because in Argentina things a little shitcoinery is very predominant in Argentina. And we saw this when we went there, when I went there two years ago at La Beth in Buenos Aires. That was a great moment. There was a very good moment there because la bitcoin, even though the name suggests bitcoin was also about shitcoining as well. And Samson was invited to speak there, Jimmy Song was invited to speak there and Vitalik was invited to speak there. And this happened just after the FTX crash. So this was November 2022. So that the organizers of the, of the conference decided to do a panel on the FTX crash and invited Samson, Jimmy Vitalik, the organizer himself and one or two other guys, one regulations guy and someone else. And that panel was the most entertaining panel I've ever, I've ever witnessed. It turned into more of a like Bitcoin versus Ethereum Bitcoin v Shitcoin session. And I mean you can see the recording online. But anyway, going back to, going back to Argentina I think Melee's approach is very free. It's as a libertarian, very free market. Let the market decide and stuff. So you know, obviously he's not cracking down on, he's not going to crack down. He's going to allow bitcoin to happen. It's going to allow. But it's at the same time he's not going to, I don't think he's, there's any moves I see there of him differentiating between bitcoin and the rest and we're trying to get meetings happening there to try and we have some leads and stuff but it's a tough one to crack. Argentina is a different size. It's a different, it's, it's a different, it's an order magnitude, much bigger country than, than El Salvador and it's given its history of financial disasters and it's structure they have a lot of shit to sort out. And that's why I think he's focusing mainly on government efficiency, on Doge, on his department of government as Musk and Thingy are going to be doing. But yeah, on cleaning up and loosening up the size of the state apparatus there while he's doing that. It's, you know, he promised that he would take down the central bank but you just can't take down the central bank. Like one day you have a central bank, next day you don't. It doesn't work that way. That's going to take time. I think. I've seen, we've seen progress there. We've seen inflation numbers actually being reduced a lot. But you know, I still, I still think he's very much still in his, in his mission and we're still waiting to see what the results were going to be. He's got a huge, huge task at hand and still has, but there are some promising data coming out of the country and hopefully he will do. He will leave such a mark that he will be re elected again and continue his good work.
- [82:28]
Unknown
Yeah, it's, it's certainly that he has a, a lot of irons in the fire in terms of cleaning up things there. But I mean, it's impressive what he's done already.
- [82:36]
Prince Philip
Yeah, the system was so rotten that people, so many people were benefiting from the, from decades of interventionism, of socialism and stuff. It's not easy to clean that up overnight. I think he's the character to do it. You know, he's that fiery crazy guy that has the ability just to make it happen, to cut it and essentially to start cutting out those tumors. But at the same time they're not all benign tuners and some of them are quite malignant. And that takes time.
- [83:11]
Unknown
Yeah, I'm curious too. You know, we were talking about monarchy earlier. Democracy, the state generally, you guys are obviously focused on nation state adoption on, on multiple levels. But what do you think is the purpose of the state? Or maybe I should say, what is the purpose of the modern state? What, what is it actually supposed to do for the people that reside within its borders?
- [83:39]
Prince Philip
It's meant to attract people. It's meant to be a service company towards the people. A great book to read about. This is the current head of the Liechtenstein royal family. His name is Prince Hans Adam II. In the early 2000s, he wrote this book, the State in the Third Millennium. And to sum it up, it's basically the state should act as a service provider to this people, attracting people as opposed to repelling them. And it's, it's, it's the vision that we will have. So I would say that it can be used. His model is also the model of many libertarians. He's a libertarian, he's an Austrian. I had the opportunity, the pleasure of meeting him last year at an Austrian economics conference that they organize every year in Badus in Liechtenstein. And he wasn't attending the conference. But later we had drinks at the palace and he was there because he's a bit older. He's in his late 70s, but he still likes to socialize. Great guy, you know, loves, loves it, loves a bit of attention and loves a good chat and stuff. And I also met with some of the other members of the royal family who organized that conference. The other one's Prince Michael, one of his cousins, and Prince Philip as well, who's another cousin. And they all own Bitcoin. I wouldn't say they're at the maxi stage, they're at the investment stage, investor stage, I should say. But anyway, going back to the government's model, I think Liechtenstein is a great example. I know it's a small country, it's only got 40, 50,000 people, but they have a model that works because they're very wealthy. As when you, when you're looking at these Keynesian metrics, GDP and all that sort of stuff there, they don't really paint the full picture. But when you divide, when you divide it and look at it, per capita, you get a slightly better picture. And as a GDP per capita, Liechtenstein is probably one of the wealthiest countries in the world. And when you go there, you see it, there's a lot of nice cars, the place is absolutely spotless. Everything works. And it's also free country. You can actually smoke in the restaurants as well. It's brilliant. Then you go a few minutes down the road, you're in Switzerland. Or, or what's the other? Yeah, I think Switzerland. And the other. The other, please. My geography. Anyway, I'm not going to embarrass myself, but then you also. You can't smoke in a restaurant. Yeah, Lechtenstein gets it. It's a good, It's a good model. But I would also say that the other governance model that I like is in terms of democracy. And I say it's one of the most efficient. The only. I say efficient. The only democracy that fully, properly works is that of Switzerland. That is its decentralized canton system, where each canton has a local government. And within the local government, the elected official, the elected MPs are not career politicians and they actually have jobs. They actually go for sessions every, I don't know how many times a year. And they're hardly paid for it, but they're given a little incentive for it. And their democracy is much more direct. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a model that's been being working for a few centuries. And if you're looking at how democracy is meant to work, it works at that level, at that scale when you're, when you have less than, let's say 100 or 200,000 people. Democracy I don't think really works beyond that. Then you get to point where you have huge possibility of having uninformed majorities with an informed minority controlling the system, which is the case in many republics and constitutional monarchies around the world. Then Switzerland has a federal government. And I'd say its only downfall is that federal government has yearly elections. I would say what would be a great model would be to have Switzerland's Canton system with direct democracy. But the federal level would be a monarchy. So that's where you kind of get in Liechtenstein, but at a much greater level, a much bigger level. And the monarchy would be in charge of, of foreign policy, defense. And not just that, but this has to only work under bitcoin standard and a proper hard money standard, which is only bitcoin. There's no other choice. That this is the next stage of the democracy I would see is that that particular model that the monarch acts as the. Not just a placeholder, but actually acts as the, as a custodian to traditions, to customs, to family values and to continuity. And also as the foreign. As someone who promotes foreign policy, I mean promotes, who goes about foreign policy for his country and his incentives of his family being in place there for millennia to come is directly incentivized in the, in the well being of the country.
- [89:18]
Unknown
So fascinating.
- [89:20]
Prince Philip
Yeah, I would say that, you know, I have shot on democracy and I will continue to do that. And I've got to be careful how I do do this because people will take that negatively because a lot of people in this world see democracy as freedom, which is not the case. And I don't see us going from democracies to absolute monarchies. I don't think that's ever going to work. But if we're going to be realistic, I think we can see democracies move to constitutional monarchies and then constitutional monarchies move to something with more direct democracies in place. And then over time things become a bit more decentralized as the money becomes decentralized. And then we'll move to something which I envision is small, like a Switzerland, cantons and. But all glued together with. Depending on the region, some bigger, some smaller, with a, with a monarchy or some, or some aristocracy in charge. You will maybe some of those have federal governments and you will have elections as well. But their main purpose of existence is to promote neutrality and continuity and stability over anything else really. Especially when the money is hard.
- [90:36]
Unknown
It's, it's a fascinating thing to think about and to see where we may go in the next few years because I think that one thing at least most people should agree on, probably a lot may not, but the state apparatus in democracies look at, okay, the United States is a constitutional republic. Right. But you know, it's with it's a constitutional democracy. Our state apparatus has gotten so much bigger and bloated than our founding fathers. I mean they would be, you know, they're rolling in their graves. They would be held massive.
- [91:12]
Prince Philip
Yes.
- [91:13]
Unknown
Yeah. It's disgusting and how much waste that creates. Because the state is not in its modern sense in any way a productive institution. It only exists based on theft. And that theft takes multiple forms. It takes the direct form of taxation and then it takes the indirect form of the silent tax of inflation perpetuated by the quote independent public private central bank full of. That's just a cartel of private banks known as the Federal Reserve. This clearly if it weren't, if it were not for technology driving down the cost of everything, I think that people would have ride it in the streets a long time ago. But the fiat system has bought itself some extra time, I believe and this fiat mode of governance because technology has basically hidden so much of that silent tax of inflation from the people. But I think, you know, can only kick the can down the road for so long.
- [92:14]
Prince Philip
Technology is there to enslave us, but also to set us free.
- [92:18]
Walker
Yeah.
- [92:19]
Prince Philip
And that's the, I wouldn't say the irony, the paradox of it that it's take the Democratic Republican model has allowed that plus money printer has allowed these election cycles to promise people things over time. And that's how these, these people remain in power. And that incentive structure is what leads us to crazy clown world that we are today. But at the same time, you know, technology has progressed over time and there are great things being built out there and the Internet obviously did a lot of great things and but it's also a great place for, for the spread. It's the information age, but seems to be like that. A lot of people not getting the right information and now we're questioning everything that we read. And I say we those who are starting to understand that the media pre Internet was very much a state apparatus or if it was run privately it would have some sort of interest. Then along came the intranet. Internet disrupted that but still continued it and made it and then accelerated it. And now we have things like Twitter who were freed but still not a hundred percent Then we have things like Noster. But the problem with Noster is it's still very much in its infancy and there's still bit of much of an echo chamber for, for, for Bitcoin Maximus. But it's the start of something great and I think it's beautiful. It's somewhere I can actually talk my mind more. So I still got to be careful. But like on Twitter, if I tweet anything about bitcoin, you'll see a lot of angry people talk, you know, just polluting my, my comments. I don't turn my comments off. I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not into censorship.
- [94:20]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [94:21]
Prince Philip
But yeah, I'm just so. I'm just. Where this ties back to is I think that's that democracies and that what we were talking about before is how the Republic, Democratic Republican has led us to a point today where we have improved that technology to the point where that technology can now be used against, for or against us. And now some of us are realizing that thanks to the creations like bitcoin, that we can actually use that technology for great things. And it's going to change and it's changing us for the better.
- [95:08]
Unknown
Amen. And Philip, I want to be conscious of your time here. I didn't even realize. Okay, so one thing I wanted to really ask you is for, you know, I know that your pitch, let's say to, to nation states is going to vary depending on what kind of country you're in. Are they very energy rich, for example, do they have a lot of strand energy? Do they have other issues? What level are you talking to? That's going to change. But I'm curious just more broadly, if there is some sort of a decision maker or maybe somebody who is an aspiring decision maker in a country who is listening to this, who's still kind of on the fence about bitcoin or doesn't necessarily see the real value in this yet they're not deep down the rabbit hole. What do you say to that person? What do you say to encourage them to say, your country needs this. We all need this?
- [96:06]
Prince Philip
That's the, I was going to say the million dollar question. That's the omega candle question. Yeah, I know it's a tough one that it depends, as you said, it depends on the individual. Really depends on the nation and the individual. I think that what helps is that people, the ones who understand bitcoin the quickest are the ones who are suffering financially the most, who have the most who have the worst capital, controls over them, who are living in the most tyranny, who have the worst financial system. We're living in the worst financial system. So you know, places like Nigeria, Lebanon, Venezuela, Argentina, to some extent those countries, they get bitcoin much quicker. Some, sadly they, some of them go down the path of shitcoining and stuff. But that's, I mean, that's the way it is. But you know, I always refer back to articles that turn into book actually, you know, Alex Gladstein's check your financial privilege as a good way to educate people. People in the west. And they say the west, the developed world will be like, yeah, we don't need bitcoin. Everything works fine over here. Yeah. Because you live in a very high trust society. Things, the services do work, you pay your taxes, a lot of them. And. But at the same time, that is that they are extracting a lot from you without realizing. And you will one day will wish you got into bitcoin sooner because they are still extracting a lot of wealth from you and you are missing out on improving your situation, on improving your future wealth without having a savings technology as bitcoin. And we're now seeing this, we're not now seeing this. We've seen this now for several decades in the west, in the liberal west because thanks to these liberal policies. And I say liberal because obviously liberal can mean a lot of things, but I say liberal in the new sense of the liberal, which is slightly more tied to socialism that this is creating, has created incentives and moves against family values and against traditional values and religion and so forth. And saying that these things are archaic and they're conservative, they're too conservative, they're extreme or so and so. But these things were there, you know, religion and traditions were there for a reason. They were there to promote family values, which is essential for a civilization and for people to create families, for people to, to protect their families. Not just morally and ethic or ethically, but also with values. Where am I going with this? What I'm saying is that these countries, these developing countries, these developed countries, the liberal west are seeing birth rates that are now way below their replacement numbers in their. Below. I think the birth rate should be about 2.1 or 2.1 to replace the population and above to expand the population. But now we're seeing some, many, many of these countries way below two in the ones and some countries even below one. So economies are shrink. I mean, I mean populations are shrinking. And that also means that that's putting a Strain on the current financial Ponzi scheme of a fiat system which, which means that we have more of an aging population. So pension. Pension schemes are going to be failing and we're going to be trying to extract as much as we can from the younger generations and they already have it worse off because of the fiat system has meant that prices of everything has gone up and the. And thanks to fiat, the financialization and of. Of all. Of everything from property to cars and everything has become much. I said cars expensive, but. No, but properties become much more expensive to then saving assets into. In. In. Younger people can't save in anything when they can now with Bitcoin, but they didn't have the opportunity to save in something that would grow in value over time, which gives them stability, that gives them security. And that is essentially what civ. How civilizations are born, how civilizations develop is through having strong private property rights and hard money, having the ability to have strong private property rights. So the state does not take much from you or nothing from you. And having something that's indestructible and that will not be debased away by the state. So you have security into the future and when that gives you the opportunity to be comfortable with yourself so you can invest in yourself, then you can invest in having a family and then you can invest in your community. And that has ripple effects. And that's how civilizations are born. And with that comes strong. Well, I think, you know, that's this push against traditions and family values is having huge sentimental effects on the younger generations and they're turning them to be quite nihilistic and they see no hope in the future and they don't want kids, they don't have the money and. Or they just don't feel that they think family is not really worth it. Maybe there's climate change that's going to destroy the world, the planet and we don't have a future and all this sort of stuff and that's the wrong way to go about it. I think the family is going to save you from all this. That family is the most important part of what's being human. And yeah, I think Bitcoin helps protect all that.
- [102:18]
Unknown
Incredibly well said and I could not agree more as somebody who's just. Carl and I had our first child, our son, he's almost a year old.
- [102:29]
Prince Philip
Now, 25th of December. Correct.
- [102:32]
Unknown
Thereabouts. Thereabouts, yeah. Not quite there.
- [102:37]
Prince Philip
Almost. I just saw them. I remember seeing the announcement on the 20th. Yeah, that was great.
- [102:45]
Unknown
But this thing, you're spot on this is what gives you hope for the future. But in order to have that hope for the future that your family can bring, you need to actually want to have a family and feel that you can support that family into the future. And I think if it weren't for bitcoin, I myself would probably be much more nihilistic. But as it is, I am optimistic, I am hopeless hopeful. I'm excited about the future and I, I cannot wait to see what the future has in store and what I can build in this future and what other people can build on a bitcoin standard that, you know, it starts with the individual. Right. Moving to a bitcoin standard.
- [103:21]
Prince Philip
It does start to individuals.
- [103:23]
Unknown
It has to start with you.
- [103:24]
Prince Philip
Starts individual and the individual can only survive with his family and then he moves the family, then gets our. We as bitcoiners will create that ripple effect. You know, if you want to say what's the best way to orange pill someone? Is to have children.
- [103:41]
Unknown
Amen.
- [103:41]
Prince Philip
Yeah, that's it really. It's just to start a family, be the example yourself and then you know that's going to have, that's going to set an example to other people and that's going to have the, the ripple effect that's going to create a better civilization. It starts from, from us.
- [103:58]
Unknown
And I think that that is a perfect note to wrap up on. Philip, thank you so much for your time here. This has been a treat. I look forward to doing it in person again soon. Where do you want to send people? I'll link your Noster, I'll link your x. I'll link Jan3 as well. For anybody who wants to reach out or see what you guys are doing, anywhere else you want to address, you've got.
- [104:18]
Prince Philip
Those are the ones. Yeah. So Jan3x and Noster as well.
- [104:23]
Unknown
And again, I'd really recommend people check out Aqua. It's a great wallet. I've been loving using it and I love that you guys are building out this top down and bottom up approach at the same time. I think it's huge.
- [104:36]
Prince Philip
Thank you. Thank you, Walker. We've hopefully got big announcements for next year.
- [104:40]
Unknown
I look forward to it now. The wheels are already turning, but thank you, Genfeld. This has been a treat and thanks to everyone who joined in on the live stream on no as well. We'll. We'll talk again soon, I hope.
- [104:53]
Prince Philip
I'm looking forward to Walker, it's been a pleasure.
- [105:03]
Walker
And that's a wrap on this bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast. If you are a Bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring the Bitcoin podcast, head to Bitcoin Podcast or send an email to helloitcoinpodcast.net if you are enjoying the Bitcoin podcast and find it valuable, give it a boost on Fountain a five star review wherever you're listening. Or better yet, share this show with your network so more people can learn about bitcoin. Or don't. Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it. You can grab links in the show notes to watch or list this show wherever you get your podcasts. Or go to bitcoin podcast.net podcast and you'll also find the links to follow me and the show on no and on X. Bitcoin is scarce. There will only ever be 21 million, but Bitcoin podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free. Sample.