← THE Bitcoin Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
I think the first wave is companies that really need bitcoin. The next wave is companies that want and benefit from bitcoin that may not need it. Apple doesn't need it. They're going to be just fine. Right. Google doesn't need it, Microsoft doesn't need it. But they'd all benefit greatly from it, really greatly. So I think that wave is coming. You know, same thing applies to nation states. I think the US May be an exception because of Trump's kind of foresight. But nation states, there are nation states that need it. Like if you have a fiat currency and your currency, what are they, like 160 fiat currencies out there? There aren't going to be 160 fiat currencies. 50 years, there just aren't. There's going to be, you know, some very small fraction of that. So if you're Turkey and your currency is going away, Turkish lira is going away, you would, you would benefit from printing a shit ton of Turkish lira and buying as much bitcoin with your fake money as you could. Right. And backing it. So there are a number of countries in that situation, much like the companies that were early adopters out of necessity. I think we'll see nation states clamor in out of necessity as well.
- [01:12]
B
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs. My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin Podcast. The Bitcoin time chain is 879284 and the value of one bitcoin is still one bitcoin. Today's episode is Bitcoin Talk where I talk with my guest about bitcoin and whatever else comes up today. That guest is Eric Weiss. Eric is a longtime bitcoiner and the CEO of Bitcoin Investment Group. And he's also the man who orange pilled Michael Saylor. No big deal. I should also mention Eric's just a super chill dude and I love getting his perspective. Eric and I had a killer rip today and I know you are going to enjoy it. But before we dive in, do me a favor and subscribe to the Bitcoin podcast wherever you're listening. And make sure to subscribe on YouTube or rumble as well by searching at Walker America. Head to the Show Notes to grab a discount link for my sponsor Bitbox. Or go to Bitbox Swiss Slash Walker and use the promo code walker for 5% off. Send an email to hello@bitcoin podcast.net if you have feedback. Want to say hello? Or if you're interested in sponsoring the Bitcoin podcast. And if you find this show valuable, consider giving value back by giving a zap on Noster or a boost on Fountain. I truly appreciate it. Without further ado, let's get into this bitcoin talk with Eric Weiss. Eric, welcome. Glad to have you on here. Wish we could be doing. Yeah, it's my pleasure, man. And wish we could be doing it in person, but we'll have to. We'll have to save that for another time. It was what a. What a. What a way to ring in the new year here this year. And I can't say I've done something in quite that spectacular a fashion before. Nice to see so many bitcoiners really cutting loose too. It was a pretty amazing time.
- [03:11]
A
I'm not sure many people have done rung in the new year in that spectacular fashion. He kind of. He went all out. He said he was. He said he would deliver 100k party and he delivered a 100k party that I think people will be talking about for a while.
- [03:27]
B
He's a man of his word. You know, it's like he said he was going to do it. He did it. So now I guess we all have to wait for the, you know, the one million party. Now that, like, that's kind of. I feel like it's kind of a strange thing. Like that feels like the next psychological level to me. Like, I don't know what in between. Like maybe 4, 26, 9. 6 just for 420 and 69. But like really psychological price levels, it's like. No, it's like it's a million now. Like, that's just. There's nothing in between. It's just, you know, I think you're having a party.
- [03:56]
A
Every 100k pays for itself.
- [03:59]
B
So, you know, party wise. Yeah, I'm not going to disagree with that.
- [04:03]
A
But yeah, but emotionally, yeah, it's like I think the. I think the next. Who knows what the price will be, But I think the next really big emotional level will be when bitcoin flips gold. That'll be the big one.
- [04:20]
B
What does that happen at? I knew this off the top of my head and then archived it.
- [04:26]
A
It changes, right? Because gold has had a good run and gold keeps moving. I think gold is at roughly 18 trillion. So I think we're looking at roughly 9x from here.
- [04:38]
B
Yeah, that's so. I mean, you're looking at almost like almost a million.
- [04:43]
A
Almost a million bucks. Yeah.
- [04:45]
B
Okay. You know, I was just looking at. Actually I had this pulled up here. Just speaking of Gold, the chart of ETF inflows for. Did you see that? I think bitwise put it out.
- [04:57]
A
I didn't.
- [04:58]
B
It's just, it's nuts to me that this is like, you know, this little magic Internet money thing is all of a sudden just making gold look like, look ridiculous. Like, wow, this is just insane. Right?
- [05:15]
A
Yeah, that's pretty extraordinary.
- [05:18]
B
I don't know how you can look at that and not be like, huh, like if you're, if you're a no coiner right now and just not think, like, maybe there's something here that I'm missing. Like maybe, maybe, you know, there, maybe there's something to this magic Internet money all these nerds have been talking about for years and I was told was just a pet rock by Jamie Dimon. I don't know.
- [05:38]
A
Yeah, the most successful ETF launch in history. Right? I mean that's, it's a pretty meaningful data point. Especially when you think about that, the fact that that's Wall street money, so to speak, coming into an asset that Wall street has largely pooh poohed for a long time. It kind of imagine when they stop poo pooing it like BlackRock is and start promoting it. The truth is most investors are sheep and follow the herd. And it's very scary for investors to, you know, branch out on their own, make their own decisions. Most investors don't spend their life looking at their investments. They take the advice of professionals. And you know, if you're a doctor or a lawyer or business owner or any number of other things, you know, you've got your asset managers that you trust and you know, they have their tried and true textbook that they've been going by for a long time. Diversify this, blah, blah that. And you know, those people work too hard for their money to go against the advice of their advisors. It's as you know, bitcoin and certainly hardcore bitcoiners are people who are thinking from first principles, questioning things, most importantly doing their own work and not accepting what they're being told at face value. And it's like once you start questioning any one thing, whether it's what is money or what's the real inflation rate or, you know, Covid, you know, questions that people had where they thought they were misled, any number of these topics where you start to question the powers that be, it opens up this Pandora's box and you're kind of left to think, what else have I been misled about? And you know, the truth is, unless you break out of what the masses are doing, you are never going to break out from the masses.
- [07:55]
B
That's a heavy piece of wisdom to drop right off the bat here. I love it.
- [07:59]
A
It was accidental, I assure you.
- [08:01]
B
No, I love it and I think it's such a good point. It's like, you don't. If you're doing the same thing as everyone else, you're going to perform the same as everyone else. That's not how you get ahead. That's not how you get out of a hole that you may have been left in by a broken monetary system. That's how you tread water. And when I look at Just like, you know, I, I find it fascinating to, to like, follow some of these like dividend Hero or you know, whatever S&P 500 index, Maxis on, on X. Because like, so many of them are still just like vehemently opposed to Bitcoin. They, they view it as like, like, oh, that's like, that's cute and all, but I, I'll take my, you know, my, my dividend portfolio any day, you know, and, and that's just like, it's what they do. And it's like, and they're going by the playbook that, that, you know, very savvy investors have told them is this is the path to financial independence in the long term and just keep doing this and build up some, you know, nice, you know, dividend cash flow and you'll be great and you'll retire early. But it's like if, if you're just doing that, even if you're really good at it, you're just basically treading water. Right?
- [09:13]
A
Yeah, different, different folks have different financial needs and what's right for one group or one individual is not necessarily right for others. And there's a, a whole group of people out there for whom cash flow and yield is a really big deal. You know, there's people living on fixed income in the last quartile of their life and you know, they're not, they're not really concerned about creating wealth. They're worried about, you know, paying those bills and you know, for those people, maybe a little longer term, wealth creation isn't the right thing. And wealth is a relative thing, you know, and how it, once you've got your basic needs met, once you can afford, you know, food and shelter and kind of basic things like that, how money or how wealth makes you feel is a very relative thing as it relates to happiness. They've done a bunch of studies on this topic and you know, there's the cliche money doesn't bring you happiness. That's not really true. It's true. It's very. Money does bring you happiness when you really can't, you know, provide food for your, for yourself, for your family, et cetera. So having your basic needs met, there's a strong correlation between money and happiness. And then after that, the correlation between wealth and happiness is very interesting. It's a relative thing. So they've done these studies in particular, I think they did one in South Africa in one of what they call the townships, which are essentially like these massive, you know, slums, for lack of a better word. Right. And these people are very poor, but, you know, from our vantage point, they just all seem very poor. But within the township there are different degrees of poverty, right? So there's some individuals who, you know, they have a shelter made out of cardboard boxes and stuff, and there are other individuals that have their shelters made out of aluminum. And there's a big difference in relative wealth. And so there can be people who are like wealthy people within the township and they feel the same happiness that like a first world country billionaire feels relative to their rich friends. Right? So it's a relative thing. And you know, so a, individuals, you know, should, should think a lot about how much money they need, what makes them happy. And you know, are there are their thoughts around that constructive? And then B, if you really do want to break out and have that relative wealth feeling, you do need to think outside the box and try to do something different than others are doing, but not just something different for the sake of doing something different, something different that actually wins. And I think that's. Yeah, bitcoiners are unique in that regard.
- [12:14]
B
It's such an interesting thing too about doing something unique that actually wins. That is an important point because it's like, okay, you can be a black sheep for the sake of being a contrarian, but if you're losing, that doesn't really do. Like, okay, congratulations, you screwed yourself. Bitcoin is this weird contrarian thing that also happens to make those who see it quite relatively speaking, to everyone else who is not doing it. Bitcoin turns out it performs pretty damn well.
- [12:48]
A
It'll become less contrarian. It's not. Bitcoin doesn't have any particular desire to be contrarian. It's just contrarian because it hasn't been, you know, widely accepted yet. So, you know, I think that's going to change. It's just there are a group of people who question things, who think from first principles who have found bitcoin earlier than others and said, yes, I. This current system is broken. I don't know that bitcoin is the answer. But this. This ship is certainly sinking. And I don't want to be on the sinking ship. This is the best alternative I can find. I'm going to get on this ship and I'm going to tell others that I know about this ship because I want others not to sink. And, oh, by the way, it also doesn't hurt my case, you know, that. That this should win. So I think there's a lot of that. And then you also, like, you know this, right? But people who aren't in the bitcoin community really don't know this. You see a lot of other commonalities among bitcoiners. That's, like, really surprising, right? You'll see, like, a lot of bitcoiners, you know, are really against seed oils and question how dangerous seed oils are. And then you talk to your average, you know, highly educated physician who tells you, oh, man, you gotta. You gotta, you know, consume these seed oils. You gotta use this sunscreen. You know, this sunscreen is. You got to protect yourself. And it's like, well, wait a minute. You know, you start questioning what's in those sunscreens, Am I doing more harm than good? And you'll see all these commonalities among bitcoiners who start questioning things, and, you know, they subscribe heavily to, you know, more of a carnivore diet and eating good fats. And people are like, what you like, that's bad for you. You can't. You can't eat that. And bitcoiners are like, well, you know, you go with what you want to go with. But, you know, I've done the research and, you know, I'm not concerned with this high cholesterol. There's only been one study, the Framingham study, and that showed correlation, not causation, as it relates to heart disease. And, you know, it's this bitcoiner mentality that you question things and don't just settle for, you know, what your friend or what a physician tells you. And, you know, I think ultimately these are leaders, really, and the rest of the world will follow because they see it working.
- [15:08]
B
And just speaking of early adopters, you were a pretty early adopter of bitcoin, I think, from, I believe, 2013. You kind of came around or found out about it as a result of some of the just investment work you were doing at the time. Sorry. And I'm curious At that time, were you looking at this as a solution to the problem of broken money or for you, was it just like an investment?
- [15:37]
A
No, I. So I was, I did a stint of about close to a decade in Internet venture capital at the time. At the risk of dating myself at the time when the Internet was kind of just taking off, right? Late 90s, early 2000s kind of timeframe. And we got, I worked for a couple firms that invested exclusively venture capital, exclusively in Internet related businesses. One of them was called like Internet Capital Group. And we got very good at figuring out what the Internet was good for and what it wasn't good for. And what the Internet was good for was sharing information instantly, globally, very effective for that. And there are tons of great examples of that. You know, one of the, one of the examples we like to use back in the day was if, if you're, you know, living in your neighborhood and you're having a garage sale and you've got a bunch of old books that you're selling, you know, and you've got a book on how to fix a 1967 Corvette Stingray, right? That book is going to not sell very well because nobody in your neighborhood has one and you're crappy, beaten up, you know, top 20 bestseller paperback is going to sell better than that. But the reality is the person who needs that book on how to fix the Corvette, that's a much more valuable asset. So if you can put that on the Internet and share it with the whole world and the individual that needs that book can find it, you know, that's, that's what the Internet was good for at the time. What the Internet wasn't good for at all was transmitting value. It was terrible for that. And people were very scared, as they should be, to even put their credit card in a website, engage in e commerce, put anything important in email, and to a degree, they should still be pretty scared about that with all the, you know, leaks and hacks and everything that we've had. So when I saw bitcoin for the first time, it was at a conference, a bitcoin conference in Miami called a conference. There couldn't have been 200 people. There was probably about 100 people. It was really small. And I was just blown away that the Internet could be used to share value safely and securely. That was mind blowing. And what was even more incredible was that party A didn't need to know or trust party B, and no intermediary was needed. And you just knew that when the bitcoin hit your wallet that it was good, right? And this was mind blowing to me. And I was like, okay, this is a. So I was impressed with it, not as a solution to what's broken with money, but as a solution to how the Internet could be used safely and securely to transmit value.
- [18:25]
B
I think that's, that's kind of fascinating. So, I mean, you really came at it from initially at least, the medium of exchange angle this a secure peer to peer medium of exchange. This was what just could. And probably because like that's the lens through which you were looking at things at that time. Was there a. I think probably now it's safe to say you, like, the store of value narrative is very strong for you. Was there a moment where that, where that flipped or do you still kind of hold those two as being equally important?
- [18:55]
A
It's an interesting question. I don't know if I thought about it in that context. So when I bought, when I discovered bitcoin and was really impressed by this, my first thought was, this is the future. I need to start a business in this space. I'm going to quit everything else that I'm doing and I'm going to start some kind of bitcoin company. Whether it was, you know, and there were just no good ideas, right? And even to this day, really aren't that many good ideas for bitcoin related companies. So, you know, I thought I could start a directory of companies that accept bitcoin or things of that nature. Wouldn't have been a good idea then, wouldn't be a good idea now. Right. So it was hard to find a good business that I could invest in or start to do this. And then I was like, well, okay, there's a fixed supply. I'm pretty familiar with investing supply, demand. If this is going to catch on, you know, the price of this stuff is going to go up. So I bought a bunch of bitcoin, you know, back then, and it was just insanely volatile, right Up a couple hundred percent, down 90%. Like, you know it in hours or days. It was just wild. And I was like, okay, I, I probably, you know, this is too emotional an investment. I probably put too much into this. I, I don't know, like, you know, and then you start hearing about other ones coming out and you're like, I, you know, who knows if this is even going to be around? So I, I sold all my Bitcoin in 2014. And yeah, so, you know, people say, oh, you got lucky. Well, it's, it's pretty hard for people to, to Hodl all the way through. And so, you know, I stayed close to it. I had friends in the crypto industry. And then as you know, interest kind of picked up 2016 ish. I started to stack again and started to get more involved. And yeah, I've been stacking ever since.
- [20:58]
B
You know, it is funny too because a lot of people hear like, oh, you know, you got in in 2013 again, like I was so lucky that you got this. And it's like you're, you're right. Most people, the majority of people who did get in very early ended up selling probably for a nice, you know, people at that time was like, oh, you know, I'm up a couple hundred percent, awesome. I better, you know, take profits while I can. And then inevitably those people, if, you know, there's someone like yourself who like did see the value in this, you end up probably still trying to chase that original stack that you're like, ah, you know, I wish I could get back to it. But it's like that's also part of the journey, right? Like very few people saw it from the first time and just held and more power to them. Like that is a special, a special thing. But it's not the majority, you know.
- [21:44]
A
You know, it's also I think a little unfair to look at it that way and I give full credit to those who in early and help. But the reality is it was a, it was a venture capital esque investment in 2013 and before and venture investments have a particular profile which is, you know, one out of a hundred work. And so investing in general has to be viewed on. If you don't have unlimited capital to invest, you have to view investing on a risk adjusted basis, right? Like what are your potential returns for the risk you're taking? What's the chance you're going to lose all your money versus Make X. Right. And you can look at like a lottery at the extreme version of that, you can buy a Powerball ticket for a couple bucks and win a billion dollars, right. But you know, there's like a 99.999% chance that you're flushing your $2 down the toilet. It's like lotteries are attacks on the mathematically challenged, right? So and then bitcoin was kind of, it was that venture style investment back then. I would suggest that day, as we sit here today, on a risk adjusted basis, Bitcoin is a much better investment now than it was at $500 per bitcoin. The chance of bitcoin when it was 500 bucks a bitcoin or something. You know, 10xing was really remote, right? Very remote. That bitcoin was beginning, was going to become thus digital store of value. Right now that dies kind of cast. I feel like bitcoin has already won the digital store of value and the chance of it 10xing and flipping gold is incredibly high. And so I think that you know, on a risk adjusted basis, people put their money in now are going to do absolutely terrific. It's a better investment now than it was then.
- [23:48]
B
I think that's such a hard pill for people to swallow. Like, I agree with you. I think it just, it's like tough for people to wrap their minds around, right. Because they see that it's at, you know, whatever it is now, like 90, you know, 96. Okay. It's a rounding error away from 0.1 million. Right. And they look at that and they say, well, gosh, that just. That feels so expensive. But then you look at it even just like at. If you look at an individual level, right. We're at like what, something around like, like I don't know what you said, like 1% Bitcoin adoption. Like that may be, that may be even generous depending on how you look at the on chain data. And like it's, it's tough to make an accurate prediction. But we're at a, we're at the starting line of adoption still.
- [24:29]
A
Yeah, I've had those thoughts personally. Right. It's like after You've bought Bitcoin sub 1000, it's very difficult to buy it at a hundred thousand. But for a while that was difficult for me, like emotionally difficult, mentally difficult. And that all went away. Like if I have money to invest and I want to invest in something that I have high confidence is going to like forex in like a relatively short time. I don't have anything else that's going to do that. Like literally nothing. So it's like, okay, am I really going to pay $100,000 per bitcoin, which I've done by the way. Actually that's an exaggeration. I think my last trade was at like 97. 7 or something. So am I really going to pay 97. 7, you know, per Bitcoin after having bought it at like 500 bucks? Yeah, I am because I don't have anything else that's going to quadruple and I got to put that money into something. Otherwise the value of it's just, you know, the purchasing power is getting whittle away at, you know, 7 to 10% a year sounds easy.
- [25:37]
B
No, I think that's just honestly a great message for people that like to hear from somebody who has bought bitcoin at levels that right now most people would, you know, know, are salivating at thinking, you know, oh, I wish, wish I could have done it. It's like number one, you probably wouldn't have. Number two, if you did, you probably would have sold it. And number three, like you're hearing it from somebody who has had this experience of doing both. This is still a better risk adjusted play right now than it has ever been basically, which is I think like that should give people heart, you know, especially young people who have like a long investment horizon ahead of them, most of your life ahead of you. Like that's still a lot of time to stack sets and they're a lot of time. They're always going to be cheaper today than they will, you know, four years from now. Which is the other nice thing.
- [26:26]
A
That's true. Yeah. It makes, it makes purchasing, makes any material purchase very challenging, you know, mentally or emotionally. It's, you know, I should probably get a new home at this point and it's very, very difficult for me to do that because I know if I just wait a couple years, that home is ostensibly going to be free. So it's very challenging.
- [27:01]
B
This is one that I'm personally struggling with right now because my lovely wife very much, we're renting right now and she very much wants a home and I'm like, baby, just like give it like a couple more years if you're patient. I promise you we will get an even nicer home and it will cost us even less in bitcoin terms. But it's tough. Delaying that gratification is not easy, especially in this fiat world where we've been found. Yeah. So, you know, the struggle, the struggle is real. It's very real. And I'm kind of curious too because obviously we just talked about like the fact that you're getting new cheerleaders on board for bitcoin, let's say new, new members of the bitcoin marketing department. Like the Blackrocks of the world. Fidelity has obviously been, been actually kind of a, a very vocal proponent for a lot longer than most institutional players. Abigail, Abigail Johnson, right. She's the correct.
- [27:58]
A
Yeah, she is the CEO and heir.
- [28:02]
B
And she was mining bitcoin like early. Like, you know, this is clearly somebody who got it early and who was in a seat of power where she was able to, you know, make, make moves on this and more power to her. And I'm kind of curious from the institutional side of things because you obviously you, you have a fund as well. You talk with a lot of high net worth individual or family office types. Is the, do you see the. Is the, is their narrative shifting? Are they asking new questions? Are you hearing, like, how, how have those conversations changed with more of this, like, let's say institutional buy in from the black rocks of the. Because obviously, like Larry Fink is a. Somebody that people pay attention to. There's no way around that.
- [28:50]
A
Yeah. So, I mean, first, a little commentary on Larry Fink and Abigail Johnson. Right. There's a, there's a, there's a similarity between the two of them that's different than a Jamie Dimon or the CEO of Vanguard. Right. So what's unique about Larry Fink is he started BlackRock. He is the CEO of BlackRock. He does not answer to anyone. Right. And he is very independently wealthy. Abigail Johnson is the. Not just the CEO to Fidelity, but she is the heir Fidelity as well. And so these individuals who are free to think for themselves, that don't serve at the pleasure of a board, that don't have to worry about getting fired, those are the ones that had the courage to look at this from first principles, form an opinion, and then they're not worried about getting fired. They're like, yeah, we're going to stand behind this. This is the real thing. And then you get someone. Jamie Dimon's not, not a, not the right example. I have a lot of respect for Jamie Dimon as a, you know, as a CEO of a financial company. But, you know, his entire livelihood kind of depends on not seeing this. So, you know, not giving him a pass, but you kind of understand why it's a little bit threatening to a company that serves as the world's largest intermediary. So, you know, you can understand why some CEOs get it, some don't. The narrative has changed dramatically. A few years ago, it was pretty much the same thing. It was my son, my granddaughter, somebody in their family had been telling them about Bitcoin, that this is the real deal. And they end up having a conversation with me because now it showed up on in the Wall Street Journal or cnbc and it's got a little more legitimacy and maybe, you know, their kid or grandkid wasn't completely crazy. And so they're kicking the tires a little bit. And whether it was a conversation and they didn't invest or a conversation and they did tip the toe it's very different now. Most of my family office clients now, their view is, tell me, tell me what I need to buy more. You know, like they're, they're stacking, you know, so some of these last dips, you know, some of my bigger clients were, you know, sending capital, full conviction, buying the dip. And it's like they really get it, they've done the homework, they love it. The other thing that's kind of fun and interesting is some of these folks have massive net worths and bitcoin. While their bitcoin positions are very large and mine in your world, in their world, they're not that large and, but it's still the asset that they're most interested in and have the most fun with and pay the most attention to. I have one of my clients, I, you know, I went to his home and put, you know, bitcoin on the price of bitcoin on the lock screen of his iPhone so that I could see the price, you know, and they get a kick out of it. They like it. Um, the narratives have changed a lot. Now they're proud of what they did, they're telling their friends about these investments and more and more capital is coming in. Then they start hearing Trump talk about it, nation state involvement, et cetera, and boom. Plus they, you know, they've now seen a lot of their friends crush it on their bitcoin. And so there's some FOMO too. You know, it's like, you know, you get a bunch of rich guys at a cocktail party talking about stuff and you know, one guy saying that he was up, you know, 26% for the year and you know, and, and then one of the guys in the group's like, oh Yeah, I was up 125. What, you know, so turns FOMO's. FOMO's real around among that group of people.
- [32:51]
B
The great thing about bitcoin is it does not care if you're an individual or a corporation or a nation state. Because bitcoin treats everyone the and because bitcoin treats you so well, you need to make sure that you treat your bitcoin well by going to Bitbox Swiss slash walker and using the promo code walker to get yourself 5% off the fully open source Bitcoin only Bitbox 02 hardware wallet. Then get your bitcoin off the exchange and into your own self custody. Bitcoin is ripping and will rip harder and soon your stack will be worth a heck of a lot more in fiat value than it is today. So now's the perfect time to make sure you have your security locked down tight with Bitbox Plus. And I cannot emphasize this enough, but the Bitbox 02 is easy as hell to use. Whether you're brand new to Bitcoin, it's your first time setting up a hardware wallet, or you are a well seasoned psychopath. It is Bitcoin only and again, fully open source. Head to their GitHub and verify for yourself. No need to trust me or bitbox. When you go to Bitbox Swiss Walker and use the promo code Walker, not only do you get 5% off, but you also help support this podcast. So thank you. Now, I mean that's interesting and I suppose it is certainly undoubtedly a more exciting investment than most that kind of group may be used to. I'm curious too, because one thing I wanted to get your opinion on, just as somebody who's been around for a while also is just intimately familiar with the kind of corporate strategies that we're seeing unfold, right? So we've, because you mentioned kind of founder led or you know, founder, CEOs, owner, CEOs like Fink, like Johnson, like Michael Saylor, who was obviously, you know, I think it's fairly famous at this point that you kind of gave Saylor the orange pill that started him on his journey after much insistence for a while and then he kind of came around to it. You know, we all, we all, we can all be handed the orange belt. We have to take it ourselves, I think. But he's also obviously a founder, CEO and chairman of the board. Now, excuse me, but at the time, CEO and you see others like Eric Semler with Semler Scientific, you see, I mean, what is it? Genius brands, another one, a lot of these microstrategy kind of copycats. And I say copycat in a, a positive way because clearly it's a strategy that's working. They tend to be kind of founder led, founder controlled, founder controlling interest, whatever. Companies oftentimes smaller because again, the founder still has that control. Do you think that, that, at least in the short term, is that going to be the kind of barometer for whether a company has the potential to put Bitcoin on its balance sheet? Contrasting that to say like an Apple where you've got basically a hired CEO, Tim Cook, he's not a founder. Do you think it kind of requires at this stage right now, just because of the career risk to somebody who's not a founder CEO, does it require that sort of corporate makeup in order to make these sorts of decisions about Bitcoin right now.
- [36:09]
A
It doesn't require that. I think what's more unique about Semler and a microstrategy is and the other companies that have adopted Bitcoin to date, with the exception of some of the miners, they kind of had their back against the wall. You know, Semler was a single product medical device company whose product lost adjudication from insurance companies and was kind of a zombie company. Right. MicroStrategy was a business services software, business software company that was competing against the likes of Microsoft and Salesforce. And you know, they were sitting on a pile of money. $500 million something losing, by Michael's calculation, as he said, $50 million a year in purchasing power. 10%. And the company was trying to make $50 million a year. And that's a treadmill, Right. When you've got 2,000 people busting their ass to make $50 million a year and you're losing $50 million a year purchase power. He was looking for stores of value, so that wouldn't be the case. Right. And so I think what those companies had in common was a degree of desperation. And there are many, many thousands of companies in that situation. So that necessity led those companies to be adopters of Bitcoin. Right. And the piece about them being founder led in both cases meant that they were able to get it done. It's very hard to get it done if it's not a founder led situation. Right. Saylor Time, I think had voting control of Microstrategy. Semler had tremendous. Eric had tremendous influence at Semler Scientific. So they were able to pull it off. It's more challenging in companies where that's not the case. So I think the first wave is companies that really need Bitcoin and then there's the next wave is companies that want and benefit from bitcoin that may not need it. Apple doesn't need it, they're going to be just fine. Google doesn't need it, Microsoft doesn't need it. But they'd all benefit greatly from it, really greatly. So I think that wave is coming. You know, same thing applies to nation states. I think the US may be an exception because of, you know, Trump's kind of foresight. But nation states, there are nation states that need it. Like if you have a fiat currency and your currency, what are they like 160 fiat currencies out there? There aren't going to be 160 fiat currencies 50 years from now. There just aren't. There's going to be, you know, some very Small fraction of that. So if you're Turkey and you know your currency is going away, Turkish lira is going away, you would, you would benefit from printing a shit ton of Turkish lira and buying as much bitcoin with your fake money as you could. Right. And backing it. So there are a number of countries in that situation, much like the companies that were early adopters out of necessity. I think we'll see nation states clamor in out of necessity as well.
- [39:29]
B
I would agree with that. One more thing, because I want to talk about the nation state side of things a little bit. One more thing I'm curious of is just do you think that maybe right now these companies that are larger, in a very comfortable position don't have the necessity? Do you think the necessity ends up being created by enough other companies putting bitcoin on their balance sheet where it starts to look like a bit of a breach of fiduciary duty not to have the best performing asset in your treasury?
- [39:59]
A
There's definitely a game theory component to it, but there's also like a real life theory component to it as well. It's like if you're a big tech company and you're not a monopoly, but you're, you know, a duopoly or an oligopoly and you have competitors, if one of your competitors were to, you know, buy a crap ton of bitcoin and you didn't, right. And Bitcoin 10x's and now this competitor that you may have been substantially larger and more successful than, has more capital than you do, that gives them a tremendous edge. That's a way, that's a way for, for your competitors to leapfrog you. So I think, you know, you will see companies buy bitcoin when their competitors do, just as kind of an insurance policy, right? It's like, well, you know, Samsung bought a ton of this. Apple doesn't really want to, but maybe they better just to protect themselves, you know, make sure they don't get a chance to leapfrog them.
- [41:02]
B
I don't know about you, but in terms of very large companies that do have a pretty significant market share, Facebook looks more and more likely. Just not, not because of Facebook specifically, but because of Mark Zuckerberg's, let's say, recent transformation into appearing to be slightly more based. I don't know. I mean, I think he still has controlling interest in Facebook. He does.
- [41:26]
A
He said that. He said that on the Joe Rogan podcast. Yeah. Yeah, I think Facebook is likely. I think, you know, from what I'VE heard Mark is pro bitcoin. And you know, you have to remember that these big companies, the last thing they want is a target on their back from the United States government. And you start dabbling in something or putting something on your balance sheet that the sitting administration might take exception to, you could bring a whole bunch of heat on that you don't want. And you know, if you watch Zuckerberg's interview on Rogan, you can see the type of scrutiny he was getting. They were just looking for stuff to nail him on. And, you know, who knows, they could go after him for any number of aml, KYC bitcoin related things that they, you know, make up. So, you know, I think that kept a lot of companies out of it. But once it's kind of accepted and clear and embraced, I think you'll see big companies embrace it. I think Mark's a big fan of bitcoin. I think Elon's a big fan of bitcoin.
- [42:35]
B
I think Mark has a goat named bitcoin, if I'm not mistaken.
- [42:39]
A
That's what I've heard. That's what I've heard.
- [42:40]
B
I don't know if that was just a meme or if he actually has a goat name. I mean, great goat name. So you mentioned, just like this, if we all know the past administration, the Biden Harris administration was undeniably hostile towards this industry. Right. I mean that is, that, that is.
- [42:59]
A
That is a fact. They didn't like us.
- [43:01]
B
Yeah, that's that. Yeah, that's putting it very mildly. And I mean, I think, do you feel kind of a vibe shift right now in terms of where, I mean, we've got the Trump inauguration. What is it? It's the 20th, so less than a week away. He's obviously, I mean, he was in, he was in Nashville, clearly. You know, Saylor, I think posted something from Mar a Lago recently like clearly the Trumps. How deeply Donald himself is thinking about this, maybe, who knows? But it seems pretty clear that his sons are definitely have gone a little bit deeper down the rabbit hole. How do you think this has to.
- [43:42]
A
Be thinking about it? Yeah, I think Donald's thinking about it himself quite a bit. We went from being very much out of favor to being in control. If you look at, you know, the Cabinet picks, we've got a lot of very big pro bitcoin people in there. You've got RFK Jr. Who is obviously very pro bitcoin freedom money. You've got Howard Lutnick who's going to Be Secretary of Commerce. I say going to be assuming all these people are confirmed. Right. You've got a Secretary of the treasury who is not only pro bitcoin, but owns bitcoin. Right. They had to disclose their, their holdings. So you've got an incoming SEC chair that is in Atkins that's very pro crypto, pro bitcoin, and is going to, you know, get rid of SAB121, day one. You know, and from what I'm told, secondhand, you know, Trump didn't say to me, but to, you know, someone, someone I know, he looks at the price of bitcoin every day and he thinks of, he thinks, he thinks of the price of bitcoin the way presidents have always looked at the, you know, Dow Jones Industrial Average, or S and P, as kind of a barometer of what people's financial emotional state is. Right. Stock market's up, people are happy. Right. Kind of thing. And Trump views bitcoin as that barometer for younger generations. So he looks at the price of bitcoin every day. Every president wants the populace to be economically happy and sound. And so I think Trump has a vision of making the price of bitcoin go up so that these younger generations are happy. And he said, he said it many times, you know, he said, don't sell your bitcoin. He said, you have no idea how wealthy bitcoin are going to be. I mean, you know, the man, the man doesn't mince words. He's. He speaks pretty clearly. So. And then, you know, the picture you alluded to. Eric Trump posted a picture of he and Michael at Mar A Lago where they had dinner. And the caption was. And this is Eric Trump's caption, not Michael's. The caption was, two friends, one passion, bitcoin. So it's pretty powerful stuff. Eric Trump was on stage at bitcoin conference in the Middle east saying bitcoin's going to a million dollars.
- [46:23]
B
Almost seems like maybe he. No, I mean, I, I agree with him. Just, you know, bitcoin's going to do what bitcoin's going to do. But it almost seems like maybe he's talking more near term. I mean, how do you think?
- [46:37]
A
I have no idea. But it's clear to me that they understand the value proposition of bitcoin. They respect the people who are mining bitcoin. It's a big deal. They respect the Hodlers of bitcoin. You know, Trump, Trump, you know, what was. I forget his exact words when he spoke in Nashville. But he was saying, you know, he was talking to the audience and he basically said, you people are the innovators of this age. You know, you are, you know, you're, you're this revolution, you know. And I think he had genuine admiration for the people in that room and called out a few of them by name. So, you know, I think the admiration is real. I think it doesn't hurt that, you know, bitcoiners and crypto enthusiasts supported him financially. I think Trump was really astute, whereas the Biden administration, administration and Kamala Harris were really stupid in the sense that there are zero votes to be had for being against bitcoin and crypto and there are tens of millions of votes to be had for being in favorite. And at the end of the day, politicians want to get elected, especially if it's for something that they think is.
- [47:52]
B
Good for people, something that is a very, I mean if you are claiming to support freedom and American ideals, you should support bitcoin. If not, I guess you don't like freedom very much is kind of how I would look at it.
- [48:09]
A
Yeah, I think we'll have north of 290 members of Congress that are pro bitcoin and pro crypto, which is pretty extraordinary.
- [48:17]
B
I mean it's a pretty wild. Just because it does feel like these last four years especially there's been such an all out war from, I mean, led by folks like Elizabeth Warren and her. I don't even think she had an anti crypto army because again, the number of people who are vocally and doggedly pro and enthusiastic about bitcoin absolutely dwarfs the number of people who are vocally and vehemently against it and think it is evil. The majority of people are just indifferent at this stage. I think that that's fair to say. But like to your point, it's like, yeah, you're going to get votes and donations by being pro bitcoin. You're not really going to get any of that by being anti like that. It just doesn't shake out that way.
- [49:04]
A
There are, there are a number of people in government who think that government knows best and government should be bigger and leave all the big decisions to us. We will take care of all you people. And there are other people in government who think that no, this country was founded upon the principles of freedom and independence and individual sovereignty. And they rightfully acknowledge that bitcoin is a tool to help those people achieve that independence and sovereignty and therefore embrace it. So they just have different views on the role of government and what they want for the people of this country.
- [49:49]
B
One thing I wanted to circle back on because you mentioned SAB121. Can you talk about that just a little bit for people who don't know what that is and just like what the context of why that was important and what, what Biden did to kind of quash any, any hope at fixing that in his term?
- [50:07]
A
Sure. So banks make money by lending out money. Right. Fractional reserve banking. Right. And they, the last thing they want to do is have to like hold money in the bank itself. And so SAB121 came from the SEC and Gary Gensler, which said if banks want to custody bitcoin or crypto, they have to hold dollar for dollar reserves against it. So if you want to hold a billion dollars worth of bitcoin, you have to hold a billion dollars in US dollars in your bank. That's a billion dollars that you can't lend out and make money on. Right. So no bank is going to do that. It's like a death blow for banks holding crypto. And so Congress took this up and there was a vote in Congress as to whether or not, you know, Congress agreed and this should be okay. And I think it was generally assumed that the Republicans would say, yeah, banks should be able to custody crypto. This holding reserves is a bunch of bs And Democrats would fall in line with what the Democrat SEC Chair Gensler's guidance was, which was, no, no, no banks, you know, have to hold these reserves. And what happened was something different. The Democrats voted along with the Republicans and against SAB121. Right. And that's because the Chuck Schumers and Nancy Pelosi's of the world, their constituents are the banks too. And the banks wanted to custody crypto. And so when it looked like this might pass, Biden said, if it makes it, you know, Gensler, presumably there was some conversation between the administration and, and Gensler and you know, Gensler obviously said, you know, you need to veto this. And Biden said, if this makes it to my desk, I'm going to veto it. And sure enough as made it to his desk. And then at the 11th hour in the middle of the night, he vetoed it. Trump saw this and saw the uproar and was like, wait a minute. He's like, there's like 30 million votes for people who want this shit. Like this election is going to be decided by less than 30 million votes. I want those votes. And that's when Trump came out really strong for bitcoin. And crypto, which was genius on his part. And, you know, the Biden administration panicked and said to Gensler, hey, you're going to lose us this election. We just lost the crypto vote. You need to get us our crypto vote back. And the only thing that they had that they could do was the Ethereum ETFs were pretty clearly getting rejected by the SEC. And there was none of, you know, before the Bitcoin ETFs, there was a ton of conversation between the lawyers and the sec, working out little details. And then they got a proof, right. There was none of that with the Ethereum etf. It was dead silence. They were getting rejected and then pretty much overnight they got approved. And that was the Biden administration's way to try to get back the crypto voter. So, yeah, that's what happened there. And now we've got, you know, apparently Trump said it. I've heard Paul Atkins has said it as well. When, if and when he becomes Chairman of the SEC, that day one, SAB121 is going away. And why is that so massively important? It's so massively important because. And it's not going to start right away. Banks are not in a position to custody Bitcoin tomorrow or crypto tomorrow. But they will start putting, you know, the technology in place to do so. And once banks can custody digital assets, then what you'll get is you'll be able to borrow against your Bitcoin, you'll be able to borrow against your other digital assets. You might even get paid interest on those assets. Right. And that is what is going to enable these assets to go up so dramatically in value when people don't have to sell them for liquidity. It's like, oh, we were talking about buying a house. Want to buy a house, okay, leave my Bitcoin in JP Morgan and let me borrow against it at 7%. I'll take 7% money all day. With an inflation rate that's higher than 7%. Right. Like, I get to ring the register. It's great. So, yeah. And you don't have to sell your bitcoin. So I think that's going to be a massive, massive catalyst down the road for US dollar price appreciation of Bitcoin.
- [54:41]
B
I mean, it's going to be really interesting to see if you remove so much of that, the need for that basically liquidation. Right? You remove the need for people to do that by being able to borrow against it. And not everyone is going to want to. Not everybody's. A lot of People are going to say, no, I'm not giving my bitcoin to JP Morgan and borrowing against it. Screw them. Screw the banks on my own bank. And that's fine. Individuals can freely make whatever decisions they want, and that's how it should be. I'm curious also, we're at this interesting time right now where obviously individual adoption is still, I think, very small. I mean, even institutional adoption is still really small as a. Just a total percent of the wealth that is out there in the world. Do you have something in mind for, like, is there like a next big bitcoin adoption milestone that you see? I mean. I mean, is it like a nation state? Is it like a bitcoin strategic reserve? Is it something else? Like, what are. Is there a benchmark you're looking at where you're like, ah, this is like the next chasm need to cross, or is it just kind of this slow, like, step by step at this point?
- [55:50]
A
No, I don't think about it in those terms anymore. You know, in my mind, the big things were a path to legitimacy, right? It was. When we started down this path, it was, is the US Going to outlaw this? Is this going to be viewed as a legitimate asset? Right. That was the big chasm that we needed to cross. And I feel confident that we've crossed that chasm and we're not going back. Now it's about the merits of bitcoin and Bitcoin and other digital assets. The other digital assets will be provided a framework and a path to legitimacy as well. And now it's about whether or not those assets have value and they're. And. And, you know, we've got our shot. We're legitimate now. We're not a thing for criminals. People understand the merits of it, and bitcoin will either rise or fall based on its merits. So I think it's just a natural progression. I don't think there are any massive milestones. I don't think strategic bitcoin reserve is necessary. I think it would be good for the U.S. i don't think it matters to bitcoin. There will be nation states and countries around the world that adopt bitcoin out of necessity. I think Trump has signaled that the US Is going to be a leader in this, and he wants this to be the home of innovation and the center of it. And I think that's terrific and smart, but we're going to get there on our own merits or we're not. I feel confident that we will, but I don't see any big Milestones in that sense, personally.
- [57:39]
B
And bitcoin doesn't care. Right. It's just still producing blocks every 10 minutes, doing its thing.
- [57:45]
A
Right, exactly right. Exactly right. I mean, the future is unpredictable and you never know what's going to happen. But as the world sits right now, I think the die is cast. And it's pretty clear that bitcoin is the winning digital store of value. And it's hard to envision with what's known right now that that gets threatened in any material way. Quite the opposite. It seems like that all the headwinds that we had are now tailwinds.
- [58:19]
B
It's almost a strange thing where you're like, you're fighting, so used to fighting against something, and then all of a sudden it's like the detractors become proponents as well. Like, it's weird. It feels like it's like some sort of a trick, you know, but you're like, I guess it's happening.
- [58:36]
A
Very unsettling. It's very unsettling.
- [58:38]
B
Yeah, that's a good word for it. It feels wrong. Like you need. You want something to kind of buck against. I mean, luckily there are still plenty of people out there who are repeating the same old tropes ad nausea.
- [58:51]
A
When you have, when you have something to fight, when you have an opponent, your mission is clear. When, when your opponent goes away, it's kind of like, well, what do we do now? We're just kind of sailing with the wind at our back. This feels a little strange. We should be paddling, you know, we should be like, you know, so. Yeah, I mean, I am certainly not complacent in any way. Nothing is guaranteed in life. And bitcoin. Bitcoin will always seem to take the path that's, that's most interesting and most anxiety inducing. But, but if you zoom out, we're doing pretty well.
- [59:28]
B
Yeah, it, it, it feels nice to. You know, I know Trump said you're going to get tired of winning, but winning does. Does feel pretty good. But I agree, it's not. You don't. Don't want to get complacent. Don't want to. You know, I trust governments as far as I can throw them, and they're pretty big, so I can't throw them very far at all. But that's the, you know, the beauty of bitcoin is that, hey, you've got optionality. You can trust a bank or trust a government or not. You don't have to trust anyone at all. It's kind of the whole thing. Right?
- [59:58]
A
Exactly. Right.
- [60:00]
B
So, Eric, I want to be conscious of your time here because we're coming up on an hour. One thing I wanted to ask you that's just basically you are, you know, you were able to orange pill. I think what most would argue Michael Saylor as the, basically the biggest, who is now the biggest bitcoin bull probably, you know, in the world. Like, clearly he has put, put his money where his mouth is and then some and is doing everything he can to acquire as much bitcoin as possible. You were part of that orange pilling journey, like a pretty vital part of. And I think there are a lot of people out there who are like, wow, you know, Eric orange pilled Michael Saylor, like, I can't even orange pill my family. I can't even orange pill my girlfriend, my wife, whatever. So I'm just curious, do you have any advice for people who are trying to maybe bring family members, significant others, whatever, they might be around to bitcoin and are finding it challenging?
- [60:58]
A
Yeah, it is challenging, right. Because, you know, if you look back at the last hour of what we discussed, you know, there's the bitcoin cliches. People get bitcoin at the price they deserve, but the reality is people get bitcoin when they need to get bitcoin or when they're in the right mental state to get bitcoin. I brought up bitcoin to Michael for years and years prior and he was not at all receptive to hearing about bitcoin. Right. He was running a company with 2,000 people. It's like he didn't, he didn't need this stuff. He had enough on his plate. And so, you know, the lesson there is be polite, be cheerful, be constructive, be persistent. And when someone says they're not interested in hearing about it, respect that. Don't beat him over the head with it. You don't want to create an adversarial relationship. And when the time comes that you bring it up one day, like I did with Michael, and instead of, you know, changing the subject, he just said, okay, tell me more about this bitcoin stuff. And you know, that set off a multi week conversation. But, you know, be there, be prepared so that when the person that you're trying to orange pill is ready to see it, that you can provide them all the information you've got. You can provide them resources to get more information and help them orange pilled themselves, you know, but you got to just got to be constructive, polite, persistent and respectful. People are not idiots because they don't get it. You know, they just. People have stuff going on in their lives and people get things, you know, when it's time for them to get it. And if everybody has a little bit of humility, you'll realize that you didn't get bitcoin the first time you heard about it either, most likely. So give people some grace.
- [62:52]
B
Amen to that. I certainly did not get bitcoin the first or the second time I heard about it. And I think it's a good point, too, about people need to be in a place where maybe there is a little bit of necessity. They're starting to realize that they have a problem or they've identified the problem and that they're looking for a solution and that they haven't found it yet. And maybe that's first world country, you know. Yeah.
- [63:17]
A
I mean, Michael and I have. Have some very wealthy friends who are a little bit like Apple, you know, in the sense that we talked about. They're going to be fine whether they buy bitcoin or not. You know, they may be less fine than their peers and, you know, but. But they're going to be fine. You know, I had. I had lunch with a friend earlier this week who had sold his company for an awful lot of money. And he doesn't invest in anything. He literally just leaves his money in cash. And his attitude is, I don't want the anxiety of something going up or going down or needing to think about it, and I'm going to be fine either way. I pointed out to him that, you know, it's going down, your money is going down, and if you're okay with that, that's fine. But make no mistake, your purchasing power is going down. So. But yeah, you just got to respect people and let them get there. When they get there, ultimately they will get there. Ultimately, they will.
- [64:18]
B
Easier said than done for many of us bitcoiners who. Who can't help but to talk about it. But I do find that the longer long I get in the journey, the more I realize, you know what you're like. You trying to be a come in as a savior with. Bitcoin is not perceived the way you think it's perceived most of the time. And you've got to give people a chance to come around.
- [64:40]
A
Totally. And I'll give you another angle, too. At this stage, there are no shortage of people who genuinely want to learn about bitcoin. We don't need to convince the people who are opposed. Spend your time educating the people who want the education. There's plenty of them.
- [64:57]
B
Yeah, that's honestly a good point. And, and that's why we need ever more bitcoin podcasts. Also, until we have. Until we have more bitcoin podcasts than tradfi podcasts, we don't have enough. Even though there are quite a few.
- [65:11]
A
Already kicked an ass, Walker, man.
- [65:13]
B
Well, Eric, thanks. Do you want to. You want to send people anywhere? I'll link. I'll put your links in the show notes, but any. No, just.
- [65:19]
A
Well, no, I'm not selling anything, man. Just.
- [65:22]
B
Just a good time.
- [65:23]
A
I mean you could, you can follow me on Twitter if you like or X whatever my handle is there. I don't. Was it. Anyway, whatever it is you can put up there. But yeah, just keep, just keep, just keep fighting the good fight and educating people on bitcoin, man.
- [65:39]
B
Well, appreciate your time very much and the wisdom and looking for. It's. It's cold up here up north. I'm gonna have to make it back to Miami again soon, I think.
- [65:46]
A
Come on back down, man. Be good to see you in Carla.
- [65:49]
B
All right, man. Cheers.
- [65:50]
A
All right, brother. Take care. Thank you.
- [65:58]
B
And that's a wrap on this bitcoin talk episode of the bitcoin podcast. If you are a bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring the bitcoin podcast, head to bitcoin podcast.net Sponsor or send an email to hello@bitcoin podcast.net if you are enjoying the bitcoin podcast and find it valuable, give it a boost on Fountain a five star review wherever you're listening. Or better yet, share this show with your network so more people can learn about bitcoin or don't. Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it. You can grab links in the show notes to watch or list this show wherever you get your podcasts. Or go to bitcoin podcast.net podcast and you'll also find the links to follow me and the show on Noster and on X. Bitcoin is scarce. There will only ever be 21 million. But Bitcoin podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to the bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.