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The Blind Life Podcast
Master NVDA with NVDA Coach: Free Screen Reader Training Add-On Ep. 53
00:18:13
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- [00:02]
A
Hey, guys, it's Sam with the Blind Life. Welcome to another episode of the Blind Life podcast. Today I'm chatting with Tony Gebhart, an assistive technology specialist who has created an add on for NVDA that teaches you how to use nvda. It's called NVDA Coach, and it's something that will be very useful. I'm excited to share it with you guys today. So let's jump right in and learn about NVDA Coach. Hey, Tony, thank you so much, man, for joining me. I'm super excited to talk about this project of yours. How are you doing, man?
- [00:36]
B
I'm doing wonderful. Yeah, likewise. It's beautiful. Saturday afternoon. And what better way to do it than talk about assistive technology with the Blind Life.
- [00:45]
A
Yeah, my favorite thing, obviously.
- [00:47]
B
There you go.
- [00:49]
A
Well, so before we start to talk about that, can you just introduce yourself and kind of give a little bit about your background, maybe a little bit about your vision story and then your history with assistive technology?
- [01:03]
B
Oh, sure, absolutely. Well, my name is Tony Gebhardt. I'm an assistive technology specialist here on the west coast, and I've been working in this industry for almost six and a half years now. I am totally blind. I lost my sight completely when I was around 8 years old, and I was diagnosed with peripheral vitreoretinopathy, which is a rare condition of retinal detachment or retinal detachment disorder. And, you know, assistive technology has always been a big part of my life. I mean, it's been with me with my music, it's been with me with my motivational speaking, speaking career, and it's been such a staple, really. And how I and many of my peers and probably many of you access the world. And I remember my first piece of assistive technology was Jaws version 5.0 on Windows XP. And you know what? I, I, the moment it started talking to me, I was like, holy crap, this computer can talk. You know, so that was, that was my humble beginning. And, and it just sprouted from there and yeah, man, I mean, things, things have changed and progressed in these 20 plus years. And it's, it's just such a gift to get, to watch it evolve.
- [02:18]
A
You know what? I bet at the time you had the coolest computer around. No one else's computers were talking to them, probably, right?
- [02:26]
B
One of those old brick Dells, you know, big ones.
- [02:30]
A
Yeah.
- [02:31]
B
Nice.
- [02:32]
A
Dial up aol.
- [02:33]
B
There you go. Right before Comcast, you know, before Comcast Xfinity hit the, hit the scene with wireless.
- [02:40]
A
Yeah, it's funny. People ask me too. They're like, you know, how did you get into assistive technology? And it's like, I mean, I, I was forced into it, I had to needed it for school. It's like, you know, well, that's awesome. So, okay, we're here to talk about this project that you have and having to do with nvda, the screen reader. Tell us about it. What's, what's going on? What have you got to share?
- [03:03]
B
Yeah, well, let's set the stage a little bit for those who don't know what NVDA is.
- [03:08]
A
Perfect.
- [03:08]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So it's non visual desktop access. It's an, it's a screen reader for Windows that was developed in 2006 by two chaps in Australia who wanted to create an open source predecessor to Jaws. And without giving too much of a history lesson, NVDA is very lightweight, it's free. It's a very, very robust screen reader that has everything built in right where you need it. And the nice thing about NVDA is it's very community driven and a very community driven program, which means developers out there can design what are called add ons for NVDA to make it work faster or to help it with an accessibility problem with a Microsoft Office program. Or maybe it's an additional feature to add audio ear cons when navigating certain menus. I mean, you name it, the sky's the limit. But what I've designed, and I've been working on this for the past six months, is called NVDA Coach. And NVDA Coach is the first of its kind. It's an add on that once tethered to nvda, will open up an entire sandbox training environment for you to learn how to use NVDA for the first time. It has very, very verbose language so you know what to do immediately when you open the program. It's separated into six chapters that you can navigate in a very simple list picker. So you press the command NVDA shift and the letter C. And when I say NVDA, I mean CAPS, lock, insert or numpad0 on your keyboard. But this is with the assumption that you've installed the add on already. And once the add on is installed, you'll be able to navigate through the lesson picker, choose a chapter. You can work with an assistive technology specialist alongside you as well, because it's designed for instructors as well. I want to emphasize that here on the podcast, because there is not a training tool available Right now for NVDA users, some would argue and say, what about the user manual? What about the training bundle? I can buy directly from NV Access, the company that manufactures it. Those are great. But there's approximately only 5 to 10% of our community who have the patience or even skill level to navigate a user manual. So we're trying to cater, and by we, I mean me, you know, I'm trying to cater. Along with the dozens and dozens of FE community members that have been providing feedback and translations for this, we're trying to bridge that gap. So where, let's say, Sam, you install nvda, you get the add on, you have an instructor help you out, you open that add on, boom, done. Everything is right there. Walk, you'll be able to walk through it, no problem. I mean, it's, it's just, it's incredible. I mean, the design has been a long time coming and it's, it's already gotten flooded with feedback from the UK here in the States and Russia, funny enough, Russia was our first country to assist with the translation too. So just really excited. Yeah, as put it in a nutshell there, that's NVDA Coach.
- [06:22]
A
That's fantastic. So, so essentially it's, you know, if, if someone is probably familiar with a mobile screen reader, like talk back or voiceover, and you've got the tutorial in there that you can jump into and whatever button, whatever gesture, whatever swiping you want to try out, it tells you what it does and kind of walks you through it. This is essentially that for the NVDA screen reader.
- [06:47]
B
You got it.
- [06:48]
A
Yeah. I want to actually add on that. The very first time I ever was introduced to nvda, I had met a guy and he was talking about how amazing it was and he had it. He had a Darth Vader voice for his nvda.
- [07:09]
B
Oh my goodness.
- [07:11]
A
So that's, that's once again talking about the kind of the power of the open source world and, you know, lots of people coming at it from different angles. You can do fun things like that.
- [07:22]
B
Just as a quick overview. So some of what we can expect to see in NVDA Coach. When you open up the, the Coach menu and that's NVDA shift and the letter C for Coach, it's going to immediately throw you into a list and at the top it says introduction and about NVDA Coach. So you'll be able to get an introduction. Then there's a getting started module that has 13 lessons in there, keyboard, three lessons reading and moving. Through text. Seven lessons, browse mode and web navigation. There is 10 lessons in that, object navigation, which is a really cool feature in nvda. Six lessons in that. And then customizing NVDA two of two lessons. And then at the very, very bottom, there's additional training and help which will open up an HTML page for NVDA's website, NVDA coach source code, NVDA coaches documentation itself, and then my email as well. And it's actually really cool. You can actually email me right away just by pressing F. F the. Oh my goodness. You can actually send an email to me from the NVDA coach If you press F5 twice. So if you have feedback or you want to tell me how much it sucks, you can. It'll open up an email right away so you have direct contact to flood my inbox and gosh, let's see, what else am I missing? Oh, this is important to mention. My goodness. This was just incorporated for version 1.5. And this is for training centers or just general bragging rights. You can now customize your experience. If you press F7, you can put your name, your instructor's name, and the training center or entity that you're training at. And once you complete the coach in its entirety, it'll give you a principal certificate of everything that you've learned as well as your name, your instructor and your training center and the date that you completed it as well. So we now have certificates available for MVDA Coach.
- [09:36]
A
That's awesome. What about a high score? Like, like in old 80s arcade games?
- [09:40]
B
Oh my gosh. You're not the only one to ask this question. I, I've been asked, you know, are you going to gamify it a little bit? You know, probably, we'll, we'll see what happens. Especially for the kids. Yeah, I mean the K12 students, I mean, I, I guarantee there'd be some kick out of that.
- [09:55]
A
So we'll see.
- [09:56]
B
The, you know, it's young. The program is so young, we still. And the feedback's been non stop. So I encourage anyone who tests this and plays around with it with their students or, you know, you yourself get a chance to mess with this. You know, throw feedback. I read everything, I compile everything. This is for the community, by the community.
- [10:15]
A
Well, that, yeah, that was gonna be a question. It's, that's awesome. It sounds like you're, you're trying to improve it constantly. Will there be new, do you foresee new lessons being added in or do you think you're good on the Lessons, you think there's not really much more you can teach?
- [10:31]
B
We'll see. I was just talking to Jeff on blind abilities about this. He asked me the same question. I don't want to make it too big, right? Somebody opens up the program and they see 90 lessons, they're going to be like, holy crap. You know what I mean? So I, I think that's why this feedback phase in the beginning is so important, because it's the community, really. Community, Community communicating.
- [10:56]
A
Wow.
- [10:57]
B
That's, that's a, that's a word punch. What they need and what is most important for the environment. So, I mean, we started with 20, now we're at 41, right. So I can't see it going anywhere past 60, to be honest with you. But who knows? Things could change in a week and two weeks. But I say for the general consensus now is focus primarily on Windows and NVDA itself and maybe down the line we'll implement a Microsoft Office module of some kind.
- [11:34]
A
Yeah, there you go. Or in the customizing NVDA section, put in there a little tutorial on how to add in that Darth Vader voice.
- [11:42]
B
Oh, there you go. Bingo. Yeah. May, may the accessibility be with you.
- [11:46]
A
Yeah, right. That'd be very popular.
- [11:49]
B
I know that be huge.
- [11:51]
A
How long have you been working on this? Like six months. Where did the inspiration come from?
- [11:56]
B
That. So that's a good question. I was just talking to someone about this the other day. I met with my management team last year, right. And I had this idea, right? Because I was thinking, you know, as much as I love Jaws, Jaws is just like, it's, it's, it's expensive, it's.
- [12:11]
A
Yeah.
- [12:11]
B
You know, it's, it's, you know, and granted, you know, these are my opinions, right? They don't reflect, you know, the blind life or anything like that. But my, my thing was, how can I save my agency some money? And where can we cite some competition? And I've been an NVDA user for 10 plus years. I use it primarily at home and heck, even at work when I'm not touching on jaws. So I pulled some numbers, we sat down, we went back and forth, and you know, you take 200 students who have to have a JAWS license, that's $4 million. $4 million for 200 students. That's a lot of money, right? And then not Factoring in the SMAs, the, the, the, the home annual subscriptions that have to be catered to, that's just, it's not tangible. The only, you know, it's only catered really for the agencies and the VOC rehab programs. So what I was thinking around that time after, you know, going through some numbers and stats and just this, this and that, I was like, I need to create something. There's, there's just not a training module that exists that can be built into NVDA because anyone can read a manual. But again, that's 10%, I feel like, of the general populace because in order to read the manual you got to already have some skills. But what about the new, you know, what about Joe, who's 62, just lost his sight. Right. Or Mandy who's in her 70s, you know, dealing with macular degeneration? She's not, you know, they're not going to have the patience to sit through user manual. And I don't blame them. Manuals bore the crap out of me and that's saying something as an instructor, you know. So long story short, this, this inspired a bit of a project phase for a couple of months where I was like, do we make it key detection? You know, where it gives you feedback? Oh, that's the wrong command. Oh, this is the right command. And I was like, no, no, no, no. We've so, you know, went through a couple of phases in version, you know, 0.1, whatever. And after a little while the answer was right there. This just needs the manual, but lesson by lesson structure, you know.
- [14:18]
A
Yeah.
- [14:19]
B
And it's 40, 41 lessons across six chapters now. It's translated into two, three different languages at this moment and it's growing, it's being used now already in a pilot across six different states and it's moving itself or, you know, it's, it's a benefit. I'm hearing it all the time in my email inbox or people who are, you know, throwing some suggestions or comments. Right. But it's, it's fantastic. And that's, that's the goal is to make it a bit easier and so you can open it and start learning, not trying to figure out how to use it. Yeah.
- [15:00]
A
So I'm curious, have you ever made a plug in for NVDA before? How did you know how to start?
- [15:05]
B
No, no, this was my first one and you know, I'm very, you know, this might be a turn off for some, it could be a big eye opener for others. But you know, I, I only just learned how to get really get into coding myself about a year and a half ago and I'm, I'm very open about this on the website. This is actually partner coded with Claude. Okay. Yeah, so I took some time to work with Claude. I'm a big AI enthusiast and you know, it's, it's. They in fact NVDA themselves, they've got a great community of developers that are just so quick to give advice. You know, how do I, how do I fix this back end problem? You know, someone's going to email you back in about like probably 10 minutes, you know, in India or something. Right. You know, so the. Com, it's a big community of, of supportive educators that, you know, want to see, want to see the experience, you know, get better for both developers and users. And just a little comment on that is that that's probably the biggest caveat for NVDA is NVDA is built for the community, by the community. Community.
- [16:19]
A
Yeah, I think you mentioned this earlier, but free program you said.
- [16:24]
B
Totally free. Yep, 100 free. I do accept contributions, but they're totally optional. All that information is on my website and that's TonyGebhard. Me t o n Y G E B H A R D dot me nvdacoach that's where you can find all the documentation for that. And if you are an instructor listening to the podcast today and you're familiar with nvda, you can find the Add on inside the NVDA Add on store, which is NVDA N T for tools and then A for Add on store. And you'll be able to navigate inside that list of hundreds of add ons. Just press the letter N for first letter navigation to find the coach and be able to install it and open it up.
- [17:11]
A
Well, Tony, that's so cool, man. Thank you so much for telling us a little bit about it on the podcast today. And thank you for just doing it in general. Right. You know, a lot of people, they, they recognize there's something missing in an, in an area. They recognize there's maybe a possible problem, but then they don't do anything. I'm guilty of that all the time.
- [17:31]
B
There's like, I think we all are to a degree. Yeah, we all are to a degree. You know, so, yeah.
- [17:36]
A
So as someone in the community, I super appreciate it and thank you. Hopefully, hopefully lots of people will check it out.
- [17:44]
B
Oh, thank you, Sam. I appreciate the time to get here and to chat with you and your, your viewers and you know, subscribe to the Blind Life.
- [17:52]
A
That's right. A huge thank you to Tony for joining me today. Talking about NVDA Coach. If you're interested in learning more about the Add on or even downloading it you can find contact information in the show notes or listed in the video description down below. Thank you guys for listening. And as always, this is Sam with the blind life. I'll see you next time.