A Bombshell Book Drops, and ICE Coverage Goes Cold

Summary

Clock It with Symone & Eugene

Episode: "A Bombshell Book Drops, and ICE Coverage Goes Cold"

Hosts: Symone Sanders Townsend & Eugene Daniels
Release Date: June 25, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Symone and Eugene dive deep into two pressing issues shaking America’s political and cultural landscape. First, they dissect the jaw-dropping reporting and revelations from Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan's new book, Regime Change: Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump. The hosts explore both the bombshell details and the ethical debate surrounding book journalism—when should damning information be made public? Second, they critically explore why media coverage of ICE detentions and deportations has nearly disappeared, unpacking institutional, political, and cultural reasons for America's shifting attention. The episode is candid, irreverent, and sometimes biting—a signature “group chat” conversation with plenty of memorable quotes and sharp analysis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Framing the Week: Absurdity & Accountability in Politics

• The show opens with Symone and Eugene riffing on the latest political surrealities—Trump awarding a no-bid contract to “Green Water” for the reflecting pool, a $16 million “boondoggle.”

• They highlight the President's pattern of turning any negative event or controversy into a criminal conspiracy, noting, “To Trump, everything is a conspiracy or criminal. So the algae just can't be in there because people did a bad job. It has to sabotage.” (Symone, 01:46)

  • [01:46] Symone: “The president is literally making it up. And again, this fits into a larger pattern. Whenever something happens that he doesn’t like...he turns it into something criminal. It just can’t be criticism. It has to be sabotage.”

• Theme of the Episode: Beyond “this is outrageous”—how do these events connect, where is the media, where are political leaders, and where is public accountability?

  • [03:33] Symone: “Maybe a theme of this week might be us saying, yes, this thing this elected official did, what they did is enraging... But also, let’s connect the dots. Where was the media? Where are the voters, honey? Where is the Democratic leadership? Where is the common sense?”

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2. Book Bombshell: Haberman & Swan’s Regime Change

(Discussion starts around [03:57])

a) The Book’s Revelations

• Haberman & Swan’s book is drawing headlines for its inside perspective and unprecedented sourcing—including details on White House Situation Room meetings.
• A much-discussed excerpt centers around Trump’s decision-making on Iran and the Epstein files, raising alarms about national security leaks.
  • [07:09] Eugene: “We were talking about, okay, they got somebody in the Situation Room to talk to them... How did y’all get this? How did you get someone to tell you that they interviewed more than a thousand people at the last minute?”

b) Journalistic Ethics & Sourcing

• The pair highlight the authors’ sourcing: direct interviews, multiple witnesses, or contemporaneous notes. The significance—many bombshells are recounted with the confidence of direct quotes.

  • [15:39] Symone: “If you see something in quotes in their book…that means that they either spoke to the person directly or that multiple people who were in the room who were there and witnessed the conversation recounted what was said.”

• Discussion on whether it’s ethical for political reporters to hold newsworthy revelations for a book release. The hosts draw parallels to Bob Woodward’s delayed reporting on Trump's COVID comments, but note Regime Change is dropping before an election.

  • [20:50] Eugene: “It is coming out during the time it is coming out also well before the election. So voters who have questions about this administration, who have questions about, okay, what does it look like to try to put some emergency brakes on this administration… So I feel like the criticism...doesn’t apply.”

c) Trump’s “Mystical Powers” and Authoritarian Playbook

• The book reportedly describes aides seeing Trump as having “mystical powers”—especially after surviving physical danger and political crises.
  • [05:14] Symone: “I’m just still stuck with the people telling Maggie Haberman they think he got mystical powers.”
• Trump’s leadership philosophy is boiled down to “retribution” and the merging of state power with personal interests.
  • [10:22] Symone: “He compares himself to the greats like Mao and Joseph Stalin and like, do I need to go on like Napoleon? Like what?”
  • [10:54] Eugene: “Bending reality as a method and as a process and bringing. All right, George Orwell where they are. Okay.”

d) Reflections on Media Coverage & Political Standards

• The hosts critique the media’s increasingly soft treatment of Vice President J.D. Vance as a future presidential candidate, especially compared to former scrutiny of VP Harris.
  • [17:51] Symone: “J.D. Vance is being graded on a curve...I worked for a vice president who was picked apart for not just outcomes, but tone, messaging, every single word she used. And J.D. Vance is literally like...people are like clapping seals for the fact that he just showed up and spoke words.”
• Debate over giving sources anonymity—Symone’s take: “If you are going to be critical, if you got something to say, say it with your chest...Put your name on it, boo.” (23:29)

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3. Masculinity, Smear Campaigns, and Identity Politics: The Talarico Senate Race

(Segment begins at [25:12])

• Eugene interviews James Talarico, Democratic Senate nominee in Texas. The far right (including the White House) attacks his masculinity, using transphobic framing and innuendo (“Low T Talarico,” implying low testosterone, even misgendering him).
  • [26:39] Talarico: “Real men don’t lie and cheat their way through life. They don’t enrich themselves by stealing from other people. They don’t sell their soul to the highest bidder.”
• Symone praises Talarico’s approach: he doesn’t hide from the attacks but addresses and reframes them, turning a smear into a values-based counterpunch.
  • [27:18] Symone: “From a campaign perspective, I think he is handling the questions about this...He’s taking your head off, but then brushing him off and then pivoting. That real man riff, baby. That’s good.”
• Broader implications: this kind of culture war attack, blending homophobia and transphobia, has become a national GOP playbook, not just a Texas phenomenon.
  • [29:01] Symone: “This is a line of attack, frankly, that I believe has been replicated in places across the country...The Republican Party apparatus feels like they have a strong grip on inroads with young men in particular.”

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4. Why Has Media Coverage of ICE & Immigration Gone Cold?

(Major segment starts at [37:29])

a) Listener Question

• Angeline from Maryland asks why coverage of ICE detentions of non-criminal immigrants has disappeared.

b) Institutional and Cultural Shifts

• Eugene and Symone discuss how “issue fatigue” and the sheer volume of crises have fragmented media attention.
  • [37:44] Eugene: “The problem with the Trump era...is that it used to be one scandal...the whole country would be focused on for weeks...But nowadays, because there’s so much going on...sometimes the way you pick and choose is like, where’s the interest of the people?”
• Symone points out that media organizations follow audience attention. When viewers tune out, coverage drops.
  • [39:30] Symone: “The people’s attention has turned. Outlets can see that people’s attention has turned. They can see the data...A lot of people do not want to...There is a business aspect to every single space and place where you get your news.”
• Access to ICE facilities is often blocked or limited, compounding the challenge—played out in coverage of protests at Delaney Hall (New Jersey).
  • [40:57] Eugene: “That impedes our ability to talk about what’s going on.”

c) Shifts in Party Messaging and Public Outrage

• Democrats themselves have shifted rhetoric about immigration (“back to 2007 language”) and aren’t treating it as a “newsworthy” crisis, except for select voices.
  • [42:49] Eugene: “There’s been a right word shift even when it comes to Democrats talking about immigration. Not super far back, I would argue—they’ve gone back to 2007.”
• The media relies on tension, drama, and leadership cues to shape stories—without high-level opposition or protest, the story loses traction.

d) Empathy, Representation, and Outrage Thresholds

• They reflect on why mass protests only erupted after white victims of ICE-related violence, highlighting unsettling truths about empathy and newsworthiness.

  • [48:31] Eugene: “...Why did it take the shootings of two white people who were on the right side of history...for everyone to take to the streets in the way?”
  • [48:38] Symone: “Because there were so many more people that then could see themselves and what was happening.”

• Consensus: America needs to foster empathy before tragedy strikes close to home, and both the media and political leaders have critical responsibilities in keeping public focus on ongoing injustices.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s style:
  • Symone (03:33): “Where was the media when this was happening? Where are the American people?...Where is the leadership in the country?”
• On the “mystical powers” narrative:
  • Symone (05:14): “I’m just still stuck with the people telling Maggie Haberman they think he got mystical powers.”
• On J.D. Vance’s treatment vs. Kamala Harris:
  • Symone (17:51): “He is being handled with the kiddiest of kid gloves.”
• On anonymity in reporting:
  • Symone (23:29): “If you are going to be critical…put your name on it, boo.”
• On ICE coverage going cold:
  • Eugene (37:44): “Coverage of ICE has fallen below the fold...That is correct. But the answer to why I think is complicated.”
  • Symone (39:48): “Outlets can see that people’s attention has turned...A lot of people do not want to.”
• On empathy’s limits:
  • Eugene (48:39): “But why do people have to see themselves? And this is a question of empathy because why do people have to see themselves in the actual shoes of the victim in order for them to care?”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & Framing Political Absurdity — [01:14–03:57]
• Book Bombshell: Haberman & Swan — [03:57–24:07]
  • “Mystical powers” discussion — [05:14]
  • “Iran and Epstein files source” debate — [07:09–13:20]
  • Ethics in book journalism — [19:10–21:52]
• Talarico on Masculinity Attacks — [25:12–34:32]
  • Notable Talarico quote — [26:39]
  • “Real man riff” praised — [27:18]
• Listener Question: ICE Coverage — [37:29–51:27]
  • Systemic causes of lost coverage — [39:30–43:14]
  • White victims catalyzing protest — [48:31–49:12]
• Call for Questions & Closing — [51:32–end]

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Tone & Style

• Candid, conversational, often humorous but unflinching in critique.
• “Group chat energy”: honest and direct, occasionally irreverent, with cultural references and personal asides.

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Takeaways

• The Haberman & Swan book shocks, but also reignites debates about the role and responsibility of journalists in real-time reporting versus long-term historical record.
• Media coverage is shaped by public attention, structural barriers, and political leadership (or lack thereof)—complex, overlapping dynamics that leave crucial issues like ICE detentions in the shadows.
• Political and media institutions are often reactive, not proactive, in their coverage of injustice, making it all the more critical for both journalists and citizens to “stay tapped in without burning out," as the show’s tagline promises.

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For those who haven't listened:
This summary covers all the major arguments, cultural observations, and quotable moments—all with the wit and candor that makes "Clock It" a stand-out in political podcasting. If you want more depth, the full episode brings even richer banter and firsthand stories.

Transcript

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[B]

Yes. Come sit with us. Be with us as we try to make sense of America this week.

[A]

Well, you know, there have been, you know, there's been a lot of people moving goalposts lately, Eugene.

[B]

The reflecting pool is just as green as it was before Trump gave a no bid contract to a company owned by one of his donors. And it was called Green Water is the name of the people who got the no bid contract. And I just feel like the universe is messing with us.

[A]

You cannot make this up. You know, they spent more than 16 million taxpayer dollars, and it's gone to that boondoggle so far. You know, But I had to Google what a boondoggle was. Cause I was.

[B]

It feels very slurish.

[A]

Yeah, well, I was like, what is a boondoggle? It is a wasteful, unnecessary, or impractical project. And that's exactly what this is. The reflect and pool story seems absurd until you realize it actually fits into a larger pattern. Ok, to Trump, everything is a conspiracy or criminal. So the algae just can't be in there because people did a bad job. Right. It has to sabotage.

[B]

No, the algae is there. We ain't supposed to be talking about this. The algae is there because they painted the ground of the pool a darker color.

[A]

Yeah, science.

[B]

Darker colors as we. Exactly. Darker colors bring in more heat, and therefore more algae is able to bloom. Also, the important part about this silly, silly little pool in the conversation we're having about it now we need to be talking more about is the fact that people are being arrested without evidence. That the President of the United States and his administration are saying they're going around cutting it up with a knife. Where's the video? How did we miss these people wading in the water?

[A]

Now you know there's nobody wading 350ft.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

There's nobody wading in the water. Just saying he is lying. The president is literally making it up. And again, this fits into a larger pattern. Whenever something happens that he doesn't like, whether it's stories from journalists that he doesn't like or people criticizing him. Right. He turns it into something criminal. It just can't be criticism. It has to be sabotage. Right now we have to jail people because, oh, dear, leader's ego is too fragile. This is what he always does. So people need to pay attention to the pattern, honey.

[B]

So all of these stories are maddening in a kind of straightforward way on Clock It. We are also interested in talking about a handful of stories this week that we think are maddening and have lots of additional thoughts and lots of feelings about them.

[A]

Feelings that we plan to share with you.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Maybe a theme of this week might be us saying, yes, this thing this elected official did, what they did is enraging. What they did is crazy. But also, let's connect the dots. Where was the media when this was happening? Where are the American people? Exactly. Where are the voters, honey? Where is the Democratic leadership? Where is the common sense?

[B]

Where's the Republican leadership? Where is the leadership in the country? Nobody safe. This week, we about to clock it all.

[A]

Bop, bop. Okay, can we start with Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, okay. Both of the New York Times. Eugene has the book. They published their book Regime Change Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump. Book came out on Tuesday. On Monday evening, Maggie and Jonathan, they went on the Last Word with our bestie, Lawrence o'. Donnell. Do you think Lawrence knows he's our bestie?

[B]

He doesn't know, but that's okay. Just like Beyonce's my bestie, she doesn't know that.

[A]

There we go. Okay, well, Lawrence is gonna know now. They went on Lawrence o' Donnell for their first interview, and we just have a little clip for y'. All. You have people who were with him through four indictments, a number of civil cases, two assassination attempts, and him winning overwhelmingly, unlike 2016. And so they believe there is something sort of almost mystical about him, that he can hear frequencies that maybe they can't.

[B]

He is very lucky in a lot of ways. When you think about the ways in which Donald Trump has gotten to this point, it doesn't make a lot of sense on paper. It doesn't make a lot of sense if you took the first term, his presence.

[A]

I'm just still stuck with the people telling Maggie Haberman they think he got mystical powers.

[B]

But this is him jumping up and standing up after the shooting at Butler, Pennsylvania, and saying, fight, fight, fight. That. Like, that is the kind of thing that I think a lot of politicians would not have done.

[A]

No.

[B]

And the fact that he was able to.

[A]

You know what? Don't let. I'm not about to let you bait me.

[B]

Nope, nope. You baiting yourself. I had nothing to do with that. But the fact that he was able to claw himself back to power, he didn't do it alone. Right. But like after January 6, when he left on January 20, back to Mar A Lago, the Republican Party was talking about being done with him. And then, like, as if nothing happened, they started slowly coming back. Kevin McCarthy goes down to Mar A Lago, takes that weird, awkward picture with him and starts to bring him back to life. Susie Wiles, who is now his chief of staff, creates a political operation that works differently.

[A]

I would take it a step further. Look, my ears trying to pop out. I don't think he's lucky or he has mystical powers. I think the reality of the situation is this is also an indictment on the American people. You know why Kevin McCarthy had to go down there and bend that knee? Okay. He had to go and bend the knee because Donald Trump still had a stranglehold on a lot of the Republican Party voters within the Republican Party apparatus. A lot of the people that. All of the people that went to The Capitol on January 6 said they went there because they believed Donald Trump. They believe what the President of the United States at the time told them that this election was stolen. They thought they were doing their civic duty. And so if Donald Trump has any power, I think it's a power that most men in America possess. White, black, Asian American, Asian American, Pacific Islander. Otherwise, child, is the ability to lie straight to camera to people and sound convincing. Af. Okay, so if that's a mystical power. Sure, babe. Sure, baby.

[B]

She's a friend. She's a friend, baby. What you talking about?

[A]

We was talking about words like what she said. We were talking about, I only got

[B]

lipstick on my neck. Cause I gave her a hug at the end of the dinner. That's why we were just working whatever.

[A]

On the mystical powers. You and I talked about some of their reporting for this book in early April, when they actually published Reporting from the White House Situation Room on how the decision to go to war with Iran was made. And what we were talking about then was, okay, they got somebody in the Situation Room to talk to them. And a lot of the conversation around the book has been, who is that source?

[B]

Yes, we have some thoughts about that. A couple weeks ago, the Times published an excerpt of the book, another one, a section that describes a situation Room meeting about something that typically would not be talked about in the Situation Room and is without the president. And that is the Epstein files. That one had the White House stressing baby about the source. Brian Stelter, as cnn, wrote about this in his Reliable Sources newsletter. He said someone told him there was a massive leak hunt underwear. I will say this, Simone, and you know this because you are someone who has been in this Situation Room. The idea that you would have information about a conversation that happened in what's supposed to be one of the most secure places in the country and where our biggest secrets are talked about, like the fact that they were able to get in that room. And there's some other stuff in here that like when you dig into it, it's like, how did y' all get this? How did y' all get, like, how did you get someone to tell you that they interviewed more than a thousand people at the last minute? They had a long conversation, an interview with President Trump in the Oval Office. And like, the book is so good. I've been reading it feverishly since I got it yesterday. And I think the thing that's most interesting about this, Simone, this book, cuz Maggie Hayman wrote her first book about Donald Trump, Confidence man is very good at doing this. And Jonathan Swan is another one of those amazing reporters who understands psychology. And as you're reading the book, what I took from it is there's a lot of newsy bits. There's like, oh my God moments. But largely it is about the psychology of this man and what it is and how he operates. He's not that complicated. I think sometimes we as reporters and people in the media tend to have a, oh, is he playing 40 chess? Or what is the, how is it operating? You know what I mean? And like the people that typically have this job do spend a lot of time thinking about their next steps. And Donald Trump isn't that. He's more simple than that. Like, it is, it is a lot more simple.

[A]

And frankly, like, yeah, retribution is very simple. Corruption is very easy. Right? Being a liar, very, very, very, you know, commonplace. Pillaging the coffers of the, of our taxpayer dollars Very easy to do. Doesn't take a lot of effort. I mean sometimes I, and I'm not saying that Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan do this because I think that they are actually very clear eyed about who this person is, who the President is. But I think a lot of times the way people talk about Donald Trump and the people in his orbit is like, he's not a complicated man, he's just a guy. Well, a very sinister guy with sinister motives. According to Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan in this book he compares himself to the greats like Mao and Joseph Stalin and like, do I need to go on like Napoleon? Like what?

[B]

Please don't.

[A]

What the heck. So this is what he is thinking about.

[B]

Yeah, there are some themes I wrote down. Cause I've been reading this book. Like I'm going to get a, I have to do a book report later. Retribution as a governing principle.

[A]

I've been saying it, it's his governing philosophy.

[B]

It is, it is capitulation from institutions around the country. The fusion and the connection of the inter. Of the state as in the interest of the United States, the government and the personal right.

[A]

It's given authoritarian. What I mean honestly, this is.

[B]

Look, I got two more, I got two more for you, girl. Bending reality as a method and as a process and bringing. All right, George Orwell where they are. Okay. Hello.

[A]

That's what Putin did.

[B]

And fully just risk taking and not thinking about like what happens next. Right. Thinking about Iran, the being unbound by what could happen if we do this. Would they close the straight up Hormuz, which everybody knew, cuz that was in the battle plans for that other presidents and their administrations had to be clear.

[A]

According to this book. Trump also knew it and he dismissed it. Okay. He asked the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in a meeting, according to Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swann, he asked General Kaine, who is the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff, what do you think? Because everybody else was weighing in and he basically said they're going to close the Strait of Hormuz. I think it's a bad idea and you can't trust what the Israelis are saying. And Maggie Haberman, Jonathan Swan. Right. That Trump dismissed that. So look, the piece about how did they get this information. Lawrence asked them about this and they declined to talk about their sourcing.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

He asked them very directly, like do you have a recording from the Situation Room? And they said we're not going to get into that. We're not going to be answering those questions.

[B]

Smart. Yes.

[A]

Smart. Yes. But if they do have a recording, I am very concerned because that means. I was thinking about this today before we had this conversation. I mean, to be very clear, it is a national security issue. The reason you can't take a phone to the Situation Room. You can't take a electronic device in there. No phone, no laptop, no nothing, baby. You maybe take a recorder, maybe.

[B]

Anything that can be happened cannot be

[A]

correct, because that is a concern. And so I do find it remarkable because, to be honest, when you open the door to where people say they can see the Situation Room, when you open the door, it's not like, ooh, you walk into that room right away. It's like, you know, when you go to the doctor's office. That's honestly what I thought about when I first walked in the Situation Room. You go to the doctor's office. There's a reception. Check in. There's a check in. It's somebody at the desk being like, hello, what's your name?

[B]

Can we help you, bitch?

[A]

Cause like, what in the fuck you doing down here? Exactly. And if you're not on the list, they will quietly keep you at the front and then ask you to mosey your way on out. Or maybe somebody is coming down in there to say, oh, I have a note for the Chief of Staff. I have a note for the Vice President. I have a note for the Vice President. Okay, well, we will take. We will take it in. You can stand right here. I mean, there's people that work just in the Situation Room. It's just that all the time. And then there's that room that everybody talks about.

[B]

So the pictures that you see.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is like a long tangent and an aside, but this is. I think a lot of times we hear about things that happen in this administration. And to your point, it's just like, honestly, it is remarkable what these people have been able to get away with. Okay. Like, I'm wondering what the people that want to use their powers for good could do if they had the gumption and the unmitigated gallery that Donald Trump and these Republicans have. Right.

[B]

Straight up in the excerpts in parts of this book, I will say, Vice President J.D. vance, in terms of the political future, he looks better. I ain't saying he. The leak. All I'm saying it is very interesting. Tumwa, as someone who engages with and has engaged with presidents, vice presidents, their teams, governors, members of the Senate and the House, he looks the best. Like, he. Often, when it comes to the conversation they had About Epstein. Right. Epstein is something that has split the MAGA base. Right. And has been an issue for the President and the administration. He is quoted as saying. And not say this isn't true. Right. But what he is quoted as saying, and I'm paraphrasing, is something like, basically, we should release all the files right now. That's what they promised to do. Very interesting. As someone who going toward 2028, that would be something that his team would probably want out there. He in the conversation about Iran and you guys probably read this in the New York Times when they released the excerpt. The Vice President of the United States is very like, girl, I don't know. I don't think we should do. No, he ain't say it like that. That's me like, girl, I don't know. I think we about to stay out of there. And I think that is very interesting. And as someone who, when reading other reporters books, I am always trying to figure out who their source is and who may have known that information. But there is so much information in here, sim, that you can only get if you talk to the folks at the highest levels of government in the United States. And I think that is very, very interesting. It's a fabulous book as I'm digging through it.

[A]

So I will say Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan. I listened to the whole Lawrence interview shout out to Lawrence, but he asked them about this as well. And Maggie said that the way that if you see something in quotes in their book.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That means that they either spoke to the person directly or. Or that multiple people who were in the room who were there and witnessed the conversation recounted what was said and they feel confident enough to put it in quotes. And so that is why many things are in quotes in the book.

[B]

They have this thing at the beginning that's right after the author's note. That's a note on sources. And I think this is really interesting and I think in a time in which people have a lot of criticisms of reporters and reporting in our industry is that showing our work is important. So they explain when they did their reporting. They say, as you said, those, those quotes come either from the person speaking them, someone who heard them directly, or from contemporaneous notes, recordings or transcripts. When we paraphrase, it's because witnesses or participants in the dialogue cannot recall the precise wording but are confident about the thrust of the message expressed. This book contains detailed scenes and extensive locations. And I mean detailed so much that when they're talking about the President or the Then President elect picking his Cabinet. They are talking about the fact that that man is eating crab skewers now that there were eight TVs that got brought in.

[A]

But to be very clear, those are things that a lot of people would in fact know. I mean, when during a transition, there's a lot of staff around and in the room, a lot of potential senior staff. There's a lot of. There are a lot of people with a lot of information. Oftentimes you just don't believe that they will talk about it. The reason I have come on, I have two issues. My first issue is that right about now, not even just in this book, but in the news as of late, I feel like J.D. vance is being graded on a curve. And let me tell you why. I worked for a vice president who was picked apart for not just outcomes, but tone messaging, every single word she used. And J.D. vance is literally like. People are like clapping seals for the fact that he just showed up and spoke words like the reporters used to tell me the reason they treated Vice President Harris the way they did is because they saw her as a potential candidate for the next presidential election. Not knowing if Joe Biden was gonna

[B]

run again or not, when it was gonna happen.

[A]

Well, when it was gonna happen, but that in the future she would wanna run for president. Well, is J.D. vance not a future presidential candidate? Where is the level of scrutiny? I feel like he is being handled with the kiddiest of kid gloves.

[B]

Do you?

[A]

And yes, I do. These headlines coming out of the Iran, I don't know, I just feel like that JD Vance. More scrutiny for someone who was against the war in Iran, and now all of a sudden you out here trying to convince us that you negotiate in peace, you got a deal, but really all you have is an agreement to talk about, an agreement to maybe get to a deal. It is like, oh, my gosh, the leeway that we are giving this man. So that's. That. That's my random aside. My second issue is that, well, maybe it's not an issue, but this book coming out has, or the anticipation of the book coming out has dredged up a lot of conversation about what is appropriate not from journalists perspective, but from, like regular folks perspective, what is appropriate when it comes to these political books. Like when you get this information that you are learning about in real time because you're reporting for a book, and then you hold it for when the book comes out. There have been some people online that have had a real issue with those kind of things. And I think it's an interesting conversation. Obviously, this book covers the first 14 months of Trump's second term. Those 14 months were eventful. Okay. Some of the revelations in the book would have been good to know about

[B]

14 months and it's like a four to something page.

[A]

It's actually insane. It's insane. Now one could argue maybe they're doing a second one. I could argue that it would have been good to know some of these things in real time. But you made a point to me that I do think it is worth people hearing and sitting with for them own selves. One, we don't know when they learned some of this information.

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[A]

We do not know the timeline of when they learned it. But secondly, you know, the political books I've been a part of about White Houses or campaigns, they always come out after everything is done, which is why people.

[B]

So this is the thing, Simone, this

[A]

book is out now. So you know.

[B]

Exactly. As part of their introduction for the book, we know that the story is far from over. This is therefore our best attempt at a first draft of the remarkable history we are all living through. A story we intend to cover until the end. Maggie Haberman, Jonathan Swan, as if they signed it April 6, 2026. We are recording this on June 23rd. The timeline between when they finished this book and now is not that long. And my point to you was, and to everyone would be, I understand when people see a book that comes out after an election, most importantly after, like there are a lot of books written about the Biden administration, about the 2024 election, about what happened during the 2024 election. Bob Woodward, they spent a lot of time writing that book, things in there.

[A]

Bob Woodward. Woodward wrote a book. The legendary reporter who broke up in Watergate in 2020. He had reporting that Donald Trump told him in February of that year that the coronavirus is quote, unquote, deadly stuff. While publicly Trump was still saying it was the flu. And Woodward kept that to himself until September 2020.

[B]

Now this is the thing the question is to me, because I think these two books are different. I think that what Woodward did and what they're doing is very different. One, I agree it is coming out during the time it is coming out also well before the election. So voters who have questions about this administration, who have questions about, okay, what does it look like to try to put some emergency brakes on this administration if they have issues with how this administration operates, if they read this book and they say or they hear about what's in this book. Cuz that's more likely they hear about what's in this book and they say, no, I need to vote differently in November because we need to put some guardrails here for the country. And so I feel like the criticism that people tend to launch at reporters doesn't apply. I also think something that we. There's an indictment on all of us in journalism. Right. Reporters and people who operate as reporters is we have not done a good job of explaining what we do. Like, we have not done a good job. Like, we don't have a. You do because you yell at us about it. Strangers, mostly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And even when I talk to my husband or my family, it's very hard for them to understand. Why in the hell would you give a sitting member of Congress who's getting paid by the taxpayers anonymity in a story of them saying something that is the exact opposite or very dissimilar to what they say in front of a camera?

[A]

And what's your answer? Why would you give them anonymity?

[B]

One, it is a way to make sure that we get the information. So you have to question what is more important. Is it more important for people to know who said it right? Or is it more important to know what was said right? And is there a way when you're talking about it? One thing that I try to do is say, this is a little different than how this person speaks when they're in front of a camera and leave it there. And everybody's. Every reporter is different. Every reporter and editor operate differently. Every organization operates differently. But there are so many different levels to it. There's on the record, there's off the record, there's on background, there's on deep background. There is something that some people like to do where they're like, we'll talk to you off the record with, quote, approval. They don't change the quotes, but here are the quotes that we're comfortable adding our names to or adding.

[A]

That used to be my favorite one.

[B]

Yeah, I bet it is now. See, why would you, as someone who's on the opposite side, dare ask for anonymity for something that you actually said?

[A]

Well, actually, you know the reality. I joke like, oh, that was my favorite one. But I am someone that believes, especially when you are being critical. And I feel like I have a track record. I have a very good track record of this.

[B]

Simone Sanders.

[A]

Come on now, quote me now and

[B]

Simone Sanders, when she was with Simone Sanders, she would be quoted, and not

[A]

just when I worked in the White House, to be clear. On campaigns. When I wasn't on campaigns, when I was just on television and reporters would call me up to talk about these other campaigns, I would put my name to it. Because I believe if you are going to be critical, if you got something to say, say it with your chest. And so I actually do not respect people who wanna go on background and lob bombs, accusations and criticisms. Put your name on it, boo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If this is what you really think, stand up and we can go on all day. Okay. But we won't because you know the producers are producing. So let's switch topics. Shout out to the producers.

[B]

We just not in here in these

[A]

podcasts by ourselves, y'. All.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Somebody is in charge and it ain't us. Watching, listening.

[B]

Cause if it was us, this podcast would be 62 hours long and we would be fired.

[A]

Want a thousand dollar weight loss medication for $50? It all starts with Ro's free GLP1 insurance check. Just upload your insurance card to see if you have coverage. Then relax. Over 200,000 people have qualified for a $50 copay through RO. Go to Roe Co Health. Half of cup of patients have a $50 per month copay or less from medication, plus $145 monthly RO membership fee. Deductible costs may apply and final cost varies by insurance plan. For safety information about GLP1 medications, including boxed warning, go to ro co safetyrxonly. You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So do we. Here at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love or the trends everyone's obsessing over or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go ahead, show off a little. Buying shoes that get you and prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair, done well. Kitchen sink install, done well. Deck upgrades, done well. Electrical Upgrade, done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years. So we know the difference between done and done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your [e-mail]. This past weekend, your show aired something. It was an interview you did with James Talarico for folks whom I have forgotten. Okay. Or who are like getting a matcha and going to yoga and going to the movies and not paying attention. James Talarico is running for Senate in Texas. He's a Democratic nominee. You actually asked Talarico about the ways that the right has been attacking his masculinity, shall we say? I mean, to be very clear, the White House literally has been saying he's, like, trans. It's so crazy. So they've been doing it to try to score political points. People should hear what Talarico said and what you talk to him about. Take a listen.

[B]

You've seen on the campaign trail that I've welcomed this debate. Debate about what does it mean to be a real man? Because that seems to be what they want to talk about. So let's talk about it. Real men don't lie and cheat their way through life. They don't enrich themselves by stealing from other people. They don't sell their soul to the highest bidder. He also said. He also, because they call him low T Talarico, he's like someone my age. We don't have to worry about that. Having low testosterone.

[A]

Low T is referring to testosterone.

[B]

Correct? He said he don't have no issues in that area. Leave it there.

[A]

That's so crazy.

[B]

Leave it there.

[A]

I was actually very surprised by many of the answers he gave to you. And from a campaign perspective, I think he is handling the questions about this. When he's doing interviews properly, like, he's not letting him go by the wayside. He's not saying, I don't wanna focus on that. I'm focused on the issues. He's taking your head off, but then brushing him off and then pivoting. Right? That real man riff, baby. That's good. That is good.

[B]

He talked about he learned how to be a real man from the man who adopted him. His mother was a single mother. She married a man with the last name Talarico. And he said his father would go and cut their grass every week, every Saturday, every weekend, without fail. Cut their grass, rain or shine or sleet or whatever was happening in Texas. And then the next door neighbor, who was an elderly woman, he would go and cut her grass. Never asked her, never told her, like, just did it. And he said, that's a real man. And I just thought it was. I thought it was like a really interesting way, like you said, to flip the script. Because they are saying to him, and frankly, it's not just about him. When they're attacking the principal, they're talking about a lot of things. So they want you to believe that he's soft because he is vegan. He's not vegan. He eats meat. They want you to believe, basically, what they're saying with Loti Talarico or, oh, my God, is he trans? Is that he's gay and he's not. He has this girlfriend that he's had for a while. I have not met her, but there are pictures of them. He and I talked about her, frankly. We were in the car together. She was on our trip. She went to go see Bad Bunny. He said, you know, he was worried that Bad Bunny might steal his girlfriend. You know, like, joking, joking, honestly. But we were talking about that. So, like, it is an interesting attack. It tells you more, I think, about the person doing the attack than it does the attackee.

[A]

Well, you know, but it is. It is not just central to Texas, which is why. Because I think sometimes people see the political coverage and they hear people talking about different races, and they're like, okay, I don't live in te. Why does this matter to me? Because this is a line of attack, frankly, that I believe has been replicated in places across the country. You know, the Republican Party apparatus feels like that they have a strong grip on inroads with young men in particular.

[B]

Kamala is with them. We're with you. Whatever that. Like, it's like it is.

[A]

The ad was, kamala is for they them. Trump is for you. And it was very effective. And you know why that 2024 ad was effective? Because there was no counter to it. The campaign never addressed it. The surrogates never addressed it. People brushed it off. Same thing happened to Karla Allred in his race for Senate. So I do think that especially as we head into the midterms, but then also looking towards the next presidential campaign, well, there will be robust primaries on both sides of the aisle, to be very clear. I mean, we like to be frank here, don't we? I remember in the last presidential election, in the Republican primary, when people were saying Tim Scott was gay. Let's just be very clear, that's what they were saying. They were suggesting he was gay. And when he popped up with a girlfriend, people were like, I don't know about this. And a fiance, of which now they are married, and he's a stepfather.

[B]

All of these people have said are not true.

[A]

All these people have said are not true. But I think the difference between what happens when it's being said about Republicans and what's being said about Democrats, when it's being said about Republicans, it's usually like in whispers in the quiet, jokey, jokey. Sometimes online. Right. But nobody is taking it seriously per se.

[B]

It's usually not the campaign.

[A]

It's not the campaign that say, you're right. But on the Republican side of the aisle, the Republican Party apparatus is literally building entire campaigns entire, like attack lines, like suggesting that somebody is gay on demonizing trans people on these quote unquote culture war issues, which, frankly, as we have said before, they are not a distraction. They are in fact a playbook. And so I think understanding how these things are used in campaigns, what an effective taking it on looks like, and then also what an ineffective taking it on looks like. Hello, cough, cough, 2024. It will make a difference in how we digest what's going on as it comes down the pipeline.

[B]

Is that answer and the rest of the answers that he gave about this particular topic and the other attacks on him. If you were a consultant still and Talarico hired you and his team hired you, is this like the. What you have seen from them about the masculinity? Right. Is this the way that you would tell him to attack it?

[A]

Um, yeah. I mean, the interviews are important. I think when you get the. You have to be able to answer it. So that one, you have a good clip, but also that you don't give a clip out there for your opposition.

[B]

That's awkward and weird.

[A]

Right. Because if he didn't have a good answer to your question, I promise you, this clip would have been all over Fox News. But because the answer was good, there are a lot of people that have not seen it. So I would say in the interviews, yes. But I also think that there's something to be said like people don't know him. And this applies to candidates across the board. When you have a candidate that is virtually new. Okay. And unknown statewide or unknown nationally, you have to do the. Of introducing yourself. And I think that in the beginning, the Talarico campaign, like, they left his story a little bit open. And then the Republicans tried to fill in the gaps on that story. Then they say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait now, let's. Let's double back. Let's put up some pictures of the girlfriend. Let's do. Because I mean, to be very clear, like, we might not have even seen the girlfriend had they not been saying the things that they were saying about him.

[B]

What he said when he was mic'd up. So it was all on the record. What he said to me was that she's not someone who wants to be in the Public eye. That's not the kind of. And you.

[A]

Well, then maybe you should be trying to be with a man that is trying to be in the United States Senate. That's what I was thinking.

[B]

Do you think that people. But do you think people have to make that choice?

[A]

When you are a politician, to be very clear, when you are an elected official, when you are somebody that is running to serve the people, whether it's

[B]

dog catcher, they deserve to know you.

[A]

Your entire life is on the chopping block. Now, should we be talking about people's kids? I don't believe in that. The children. Should we be attacking people?

[B]

Well, it depends on how old the kids are.

[A]

Well, I see how.

[B]

It depends on how active they are. Okay.

[A]

Children, children. I do think that people have to. In this day and age, we conflate a lot of different things. But to be very clear, just because somebody is on tv, just because they are a person of note, does not mean that you are entitled to access to their lives. However, if you are a politician, you must understand that your life is up for. Is. Is. Is up for interrogation. And I'm not saying that it is right. Okay. I'm not making a determin. A moral determination on it. I'm just telling you how I think it is right. We can debate. I think there are people that would debate.

[B]

You can't be getting my money if you're not going to tell me who you are, who you stand for.

[A]

But Eugene, and the last podcast episode, or maybe it was two of them ago, there were people who. Voters, regular folks, not just in Maine, but across the country that said they agree with Graham Platner, that they don't believe that these kind of attacks going into digging up, quote unquote dirt about

[B]

people, and that's good for them. I disagree. I think. I think.

[A]

Because nowadays, now I'm telling you what I think. I do agree with you.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. But nowadays it is so important what the actual politician thinks, because one, there's a lot of politicians who are talking to too many consultants. It's very unclear what they're gonna do when they are in the room and they are supposed to be voting or making the decision. Two, who they are morally matters, right? If they have kids, how they treat those kids, what's that relationship like?

[A]

Donald Trump didn't go to Don Jr. S own wedding yet. He could show up. He could.

[B]

He did not.

[A]

He could show up at the Knicks game. Right?

[B]

And if you are someone like us who understands human psychology and in the vein of politics, how they behave with their wife tells you how they think about women sometimes. Right? Like there's a way that those things are connected. So it's not just like people aren't just looking into people's background just cause. Cause it's all fun. I mean some people are, are but it is about finding out who this person is because you are giving them a lot of power. We are giving people power to change this country for the better or the worse. And it is important for us more than ever, I think to know who they are inside and if they are an empty shell that is just being fed stuff that is something voters should know. If they and their wife have a weird relationship, that is important for voters to know. If they don't like that kid, we need to know why that's weird. It's kids and adult kids, not like children. You know, that's they business.

[A]

The reason why it matters is because it is a trust relationship. People are electing you. They're gonna vote for you because they trust you to do what it is you say you're going to do.

[B]

Well, we gonna leave it. There we go, take a break. And when we come back, we are going to try to answer a question from a longtime listener. Maybe it's.

[A]

Want a thousand dollar weight loss medication for $50? It all starts with Ro's free GLP1 insurance check. Just upload your insurance card to see if you have coverage. Then relax. Over 200,000 people have qualified for a $50 copay through Roe. Go to roe.com Half of covered patients have a $50 per month copay or less for medication plus $145 monthly RO membership fee. Deductible costs may apply and final cost varies by insurance plan. For safety information about GLP1 medications, including Boxed Warning, go to ro co SafetyRxOnly. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. For decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. Angie the one you trust. To find the one ones you trust, find a pro for your [e-mail] you know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it? Yeah, so do we here at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love or the trends everyone's obsessing over or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go Ahead, show off a little buying shoes that go get you and prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you. This week, Eugene. We got a question from a longtime listener to the show. Her name is Angeline and Angeline is in Maryland. First, Angeline, thank you for listening. We appreciate you.

[B]

Yes, and shout out to Angeline.

[A]

Shout out to Angeline. Okay. Do you know what she said? She said that people are still getting detained by ice. People with no criminal backgrounds, they're just getting snatched up off the street. So why has the media stopped talking about it? Why have they stopped talking about it, Eugene?

[B]

And maybe the way to start is she's right. That coverage of ICE has fallen below the fold. You guys know what that means when you open the newspaper? Like, that's very simple. That has happened. That is correct. But the answer to why I think it is complicated. Part of the problem with the Trump era, right, the last, like 10, 11 years, is that it used to be one scandal. You could, like, everyone, the whole country would be focused on for weeks sometimes, right? Like weeks and weeks and weeks. And you could, as a reporter, dig into that issue only for a long time. And it wouldn't just be like a reporter. That's a list for the, in this instance, an immigration reporter. It would be everybody, right? Everybody will be digging into the same topic in their different lanes. But nowadays, because there's so much going on, there's so much happening to the American people, there's so much happening in the world, you have to pick and choose. And sometimes the way you pick and choose is like, where's the interest of the people? It is on purpose that all of this stuff is coming all at the same time. One of the reasons why Donald Trump is always on camera, right? It is one of the reasons why he allows reporters into Oval Office as much as he does. He does do it more than everybody, but.

[A]

But he's saying a bunch of nuts

[B]

when he does BS sometimes. Like, the reason is one, it is about him. He needs that, right? Like he actually needs that, that sometimes that fight. He loves the idea of people yelling at him and asking, Mr. President, Mr. President, like, he loves that. Like he loves that. But also it is a way to flood the. It is a way to overwhelm people with so much information that these, some of these really important stories don't get as much coverage as folks feel like they deserve.

[A]

Let's be honest with the people, Eugene, okay?

[B]

Don't be too honest.

[A]

Let's Be honest with them. Okay. The people's attention has turned. Okay. I wish it hadn't turned. I think that what is happening with people getting snatched up out the street sometimes they are American citizens. Right. People are being racially profiled all over America right now, and it is not front page news. Okay, But.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Outlets can see that people's attention has turned. They can see the data. Tv, digital newsletters. We can see when people stop clicking on something or when people change the channel. The laypeople can't see the data, but we can see it. So a lot of people do not want to.

[B]

Sometimes they can't see it. Some of it's public. They're choosing not to engage in it. But go ahead.

[A]

Okay. Some people don't wanna believe what I'm saying is true. Right. They don't wanna believe this of themselves or their neighbors. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That they can slowly stop paying attention to something so important, to something that mattered. That's dramatic. Right. But it's just. That's true. So. And let's just be honest. People need ads. They need things like. There is a business aspect to every single space and place where you get your news. Even those little. Those independent media outlets. Don't let the people fool you. They got sponsors and advertisers as well. So the cameras have moved away, but part of the reason the cameras have moved away is because they're. Sometimes access is being blocked. Remember Delaney hall in New Jersey?

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Let's play Ally Belshee trying to cover what was going on at Delaney Hall.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. Do you know why we're being removed?

[A]

Can you tell us what's going on behind you? Okay.

[B]

How far do we need to go back? All right, so that impedes our ability to talk about what's going on.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Do you know if anybody. Are you making arrests? All right. Well, as you can see, Catherine, we're not getting a response as to what is happening. Now I want to play something else from this interaction because this is very interesting. Belsheet, when he was hosting his weekend show, now he's the host of the 11th Hour, he had the mayor of Newark, which is where Delaney Hal is. Ross. Barack was on the show the next day. Listen to this. They should have allowed you to do that. I think those cops. Something happened and somebody gave them some orders that were incorrect and they moved you. There was a discussion this morning about the press being allowed even during the curfew. We. And I hope you supported the idea that we should be allowed. Right. I hope you supported that idea, Mayor, that the press should be allowed to cover these things. That curfew should not apply to the press at all. I can tell you what I said if you allow me to tell you. Well, say it. That was a problem. As you weren't saying that Ali Velshi is a very nice man. If he felt you were answering the question, you wouldn't have done that. But let's move on. I think the thing that he was

[A]

going to Delaney hall in Newark, New Jersey, because there were large protests at this detention center, which is a place where the people that are being snatched up in Newark and in surrounding areas are being held. And the conditions within that detention center are apparently deplorable. And there are all kinds of people being held there.

[B]

And so there's so many aspects to it. There's the America is turning and it's giving chicken or egg, like folks are turning their eyes. There's a lack of access to coverage of some of these things that is happening from the state. Right. And by the state, I mean the government. And then there's the other aspect that, like Democrats have begun to speak differently about immigration and focus on it in a different way than they have in the past. The Biden, I'll give you that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was different. Right. Like there was a different way during when you guys were in office and even after you left that they were talking about immigrants and immigration. There's been a right word shift even when it comes to Democrats talking about immigration. Not super far back, I would argue

[A]

they've gone back to 2007. Like, this is the kind of language that we heard.

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[A]

From Democrats in 2007, 2008.

[B]

Exactly. And if you had a robust focus of this from the other side. And for those listening, I'm using air quotes. Right. In this issue, then you would. Because something that we cover a lot is tension. What are the tension points and what are the controversies in the country, especially when it comes to politics? And certainly. So if you had, you have a Trump administration that is snatching people up who often do not have criminal records and putting them in places that the reports from the inside or that they're deplorable, if you had a consistent opposition to that that was not just voters and everyday people, because we cover that as a protest. But if there was an active opposition of leadership on the other side of lawmakers that were always doing it, or that it was the people that garner the most power in the party, then I think it would be different. And so it is a Question of like who gets to decide what is important? And I think there's a world in which it's the media. I think there's a world in which it is the people that are in front of the cameras being asked the questions. And I also think there's a role of the everyday viewer, listener, voter, person in this country to focus on like it all works together.

[A]

Well, I would argue there's three different questions. The media, I think from having sat on the other side of having to deal with the media apparatus and now on the side of like doing the covering the people. Like whether we're talking about newspapers, magazines, television. The question that I think the media apparatus is asking itself is what is newsworthy? And what is newsworthy changes depending on the climate, on what is happening. Da da. The question that I believe elected officials and would be elected officials should ask themselves is what do I believe is important for people to know? And I think that what you're highlighting is that the media apparatus is determining what is newsworthy. Okay. Based on the climate. And the elected officials at this point, the Democratic elected officials at least are not talking about the issues of immigration and ICE and detention as something that is Newsweek. Now some are doing it like Congressman Bonnie Watson Colem and Congressman Rob Menendez. They were on our show this week. Congresswoman Lamonica McIvor Delaney hall, she's also a congresswoman from New Jersey. She is currently facing 17 years in jail. She is a millennial black woman elected official congresswoman out of New Jersey. 17 years in jail. Okay. Federal prison for essentially, in my opinion, exercising her constitutional duty in oversight duty. Okay.

[B]

What people hired her for.

[A]

Now the government is saying that she assaulted a federal officer out here. I saw the video. Y' all should look it up. You can make your own determinations. I've definitely made mine. She is okay, to be clear, she is someone that is still talking about this issue. The congress members in New Jersey like Bonnie Watson Coleman and Rob Menendez are talking about this issue. Folks in Texas are talking about this issue. People in as you've talked about Mississippi.

[B]

Yes. Congressman Castro who has gone continue to gone to Dilley, who was like actually being a part of the solution and making sure that kids, little Liam, remember little Liam, he had that little hat getting them out. So there are people talking about it. But I guess the point is the

[A]

leadership is not though. The Democratic leadership is not.

[B]

And the struggle for them is not even the struggle. The decision that they're making, cuz everything's a choice, is that this Is not an issue that is at top of mind for voters. You tell me if I'm wrong, but I feel like the calculation I'm making is like, we need to focus on the economy and affordability.

[A]

Yes, but I do think it is. See, this is the problem with some of these campaigns and these elected officials. Do you want to make this an immigration story story, or do you want to make this a story about the government yet again, overreaching and trying to impose their authority on promises made, promises not to write?

[B]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. There's a way to do it so

[A]

we can make it an immigration story. But I don't think people. To be honest, Ms. Angeline, the people don't care about the majority of people at this point. They don't care about the immigration stories. There are pockets of people that care

[B]

in the same way that we even.

[A]

Okay, okay, come on.

[B]

When we were covering. When we were covering. Right. Look, this is usually Simone's role. When we were covering what was happening with ICE and the way they were snatching people up off the streets, there were people that cared deeply about this issue. There were people of all stripes that cared deeply about this issue. But when we started to see people really taking to the streets, it was after Renee Gidd was shot and after Alex Perdi was shot. And, you know, there are a lot of questions from a lot of black and brown people as to why did it take the shootings of two white people who were on the right side of history, right. Trying to defend their neighbors and help their neighbors? Why did it take that for everyone to take to the streets in the way?

[A]

Because the answer, and I have told people the answer to that question is because there were so many more people that then could see themselves and what was happening.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I'm not saying it's not.

[B]

But why do people have to see themselves? And this is a question of empathy because why do people have to see themselves in the actual shoes of the victim in order for them to care?

[A]

Look, I don't want to be a white person in America. I don't know what it is like to be a white person in America, Eugene. So I really can't get to the heart of. And there are good white people who

[B]

cared from the very beginning.

[A]

We wanna be clear.

[B]

Don't come bothering us. But, like, it is a question of, like, all the. Like, it was this new thing. Like, it became a new thing after they were shot and it mattered. It did.

[A]

I wanna be clear. I said that. I don't know what it's like to be a white person in America because as a person of color, specifically a black woman from the Midwest, I have had to navigate my life every day. I am acutely aware of how I am perceived, but how other people are perceived. And I think that that is the reality for people of color in this country. I think that it is just okay.

[B]

And Simone, don't you think on top of that that it creates an empathy and it forces you to have to wonder, like, let me put myself in their shoes. Like, I feel like being a person of color in the country requires a level of empathy, at least in America that is not required of. Yes.

[A]

Cause how does that.

[B]

It's not required of everyone else. And so now. And so, and so the question is, how do we all have that level of empathy that it does not take someone that looks like us to go through something.

[A]

I remember our friend Alicia Menendez, who now hosts on the with ALICIA MENENDEZ ON MSN 12 to 2 Eastern. 12 to 2 Eastern. Tune in. Okay. Before she was a co host on the weeknight and she said this on air. So I'm gonna repeat what she said. But she said, you know, there are a lot of moms in my friend, in these text groups, in these mom chains that have never talked about politics before. And once, once the killing of Renee Goode and the killing of Alex Preddy happened in Minneapolis, this affected them. And she said, said this has, you know, pierced the group chats in a way that other things have not. And I said, I said, well, it is because now they're killing white people, white women in the middle of the day, shooting white men, lawful gun owners in the middle of the day. Like that's a red flag for everybody. And so is it right? The question is, is it right? Should it be this way? No. But I am happy that people at that point, they arrived to the table. Now I think you've laid something else on the table, though. How can folks have that continued level of empathy when there's not always. Yeah, yeah. We don't always want, you know, a mom or a brother or a sister or uncle or a father to be killed in broad daylight for people to,

[B]

for this to happen. And I don't know, it's a concerning thing that we don't really have too much more time to get into.

[A]

This is true. Shout out to Ms. Angeline for asking the question.

[B]

Yes. Very thought provoking question.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

More people.

[A]

Look, send us questions, folks.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Also comment on our YouTube child. Go to our Instagram. We have a clockett Instagram.

[B]

Yes. Yes, yes.

[A]

So leave us your questions. We'll start answering them.

[B]

Eugene, can we ask questions?

[A]

Critiques maybe.

[B]

Nice ones, though.

[A]

Nice ones.

[B]

We're really interested in what y' all have to say. We wanna engage.

[A]

Please rate and review us again while you're doing that. Leave us a question and or a critique. We'd love to feature a comment. Yes, a comment. We wanna feature more of our long yes.

[B]

Don't be shy. We really want to hear from you. Don't be shy, but be nice. Goodbye. You can subscribe to MSNow Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNow podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content. All episodes of Clockett are also available on on YouTube. Visit ms.dotnow.

[A]

clockett to watch Clockett is produced by Franny Kelly. Our associate producer is Iggy Monda. Additional support from Brittany Ruff, Adrianna Thomas, Elijah Gibbs Jones, Malcolm Thomas Cassidy, Corey and Lynn Hilton. Many thanks to Julia Squilla and to our dp, Joey Rafini.

[B]

Our audio engineers are Hazik Ben, Ahmed, Farid and Bob Mallory.

[A]

Katie Lau is the senior manager of audio production. Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNow Audio, and Madeline Herringer is senior vice president in charge of audio, digital and long form. Our theme music is by Jesse McGinty and we're your hosts, Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels.

[B]

See you next week.

[A]

See you next week. Why have I asked my h vac guy I found on Angie.com to change my grandpa's trachea tube? Because I was so amazed by how quickly he replaced our air ducts. I knew I could trust him to change Pop Pop's tube while I was on vacation.

[B]

Make it quick, young man.

[A]

Aw. See, Pop Pop trusts you. I think. I think we should call a doctor.

[B]

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