"An Art of War Mindset" with Tim Ryan

Summary

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Episode: "An Art of War Mindset" featuring Tim Ryan Release Date: March 3, 2025

In this insightful episode of "The Blueprint with Jen Psaki," former Ohio Congressman Tim Ryan joins host Jen Psaki to dissect the current state of the Democratic Party following significant losses in the 2024 elections. Ryan, known for his fervent advocacy for working-class Americans and his critical stance on his party's leadership, delves deep into the evolving political landscape, economic policies, and strategic communication necessary for Democrats to regain their footing.

---

1. The Shifting Political Landscape in Ohio

Tim Ryan begins by analyzing Ohio's transformation from a Democratic stronghold to a Republican stronghold, emphasizing the state's role as a national bellwether.

Tim Ryan [02:40]: “Ohio has always been a bellwether... the national Democratic brand became more coastal, more elite, that had, I think, maybe an overweighted impact on Ohio.”

Ryan attributes Ohio's political shift to the national Democratic Party's move towards coastal elites, distancing itself from the working-class roots that once resonated with Ohio voters. He underscores the significance of media influence and the convergence of national and local economic policies that have placed Ohio at a crossroads.

---

2. Trade Policies and Economic Populism

The conversation transitions to the impact of trade policies on the Democratic Party's appeal.

Tim Ryan [04:50]: “Trade was kind of an entry point to a values argument... you were the elitist at that point. And that's why President Obama was able to win.”

Ryan critiques the Democratic Party's stance on free trade, suggesting that policies perceived as favoring global economics over domestic workers alienate the average American. He highlights the poignant example of the Coffin campaign ad against Mitt Romney, emphasizing how trade issues intersect with broader concerns like healthcare, economic inequality, and union support.

---

3. Balancing Nostalgia with Modernization

Jen Psaki introduces the topic of nostalgia for manufacturing jobs amidst technological advancements like AI.

Tim Ryan [06:24]: “The Art of War has this deep principle of orthodox to extraordinary... we want that middle class to be built again.”

Ryan acknowledges the sentimental longing for manufacturing jobs but emphasizes the necessity of embracing modernization. He advocates for leveraging AI and technology to create new, higher-paying jobs, illustrating this with the example of the Intel chip manufacturing plant in Columbus promising an average wage of $150,000 annually.

---

4. Regulatory Reform and AI Opportunities

Delving deeper, Ryan discusses the potential of AI in streamlining government processes.

Tim Ryan [12:00]: “Why wouldn't we wrap our arms around AI and say this is going to be great for us?... We've got to be for permitting reform.”

He envisions AI as a tool to expedite permitting and infrastructure projects, reducing bureaucratic delays and fostering economic revitalization in struggling communities. Ryan criticizes the inefficiency of current regulatory frameworks, advocating for reforms that would allow faster implementation of vital projects funded by initiatives like the CHIPS Act.

---

5. Labor Unions and Political Alignment

The discussion shifts to the complex relationship between labor unions and political affiliations.

Tim Ryan [15:02]: “This boy did we get screwed... and nobody did anything.”

Ryan reflects on the disconnect between union leaders and rank-and-file members, noting that many workers feel betrayed by Democratic leaders despite the party's historical ties to labor. He emphasizes the need for Democrats to authentically advocate for workers' interests rather than relying on perceived elite support.

---

6. Critique of J.D. Vance

Jen Psaki probes Ryan's views on J.D. Vance, a key Republican figure in Ohio.

Tim Ryan [19:05]: “He’s got a lot of that Eddie Haskell in him... he's just gonna say whatever Trump wanted.”

Ryan criticizes Vance's perceived sycophantic relationship with Trump, suggesting that Vance prioritizes political gains over genuine representation of working-class interests. He questions Vance's authenticity and alignment with Trump's populist rhetoric, portraying him as insincere and opportunistic.

---

7. Democratic Strategy: Focusing on Domestic Issues

Ryan advocates for Democrats to prioritize domestic concerns over international issues to reconnect with voters.

Tim Ryan [31:21]: “We've passed these massive bills to re industrialize chip manufacturing and wind and solar and batteries and electric vehicles... We've got to focus on home.”

He argues that Democrats should anchor their messaging around domestic economic policies, such as infrastructure and job creation, rather than being sidetracked by foreign aid debates. Ryan believes this focus will resonate more effectively with voters struggling with everyday economic challenges.

---

8. Climate Policies and Working-Class Concerns

The conversation addresses the delicate balance between environmental initiatives and economic realities for working-class Americans.

Tim Ryan [28:45]: “Saying no to fossil fuel altogether... I think that had something to do with us losing some of those voters.”

Ryan warns against overly aggressive climate policies that disregard the practical implications for energy-dependent communities. He suggests a balanced approach, integrating natural gas with renewables to ensure energy transition efforts do not disenfranchise workers in traditional energy sectors.

---

9. Generational Change and Communication in Democrats

Discussing the need for fresh communication strategies, Ryan highlights the importance of younger Democratic leaders.

Tim Ryan [38:35]: “I think we need Chris Murphy out front, you need Chatz out front... those kind of people that look young because you've studied communications too.”

He criticizes the Democratic Party's reliance on long-serving, often outdated members who struggle to connect with modern, media-savvy voters. Ryan advocates for promoting younger, more dynamic leaders who can effectively communicate the party's vision to a broader audience.

---

10. RFK Jr and Bipartisan Opportunities

Jen Psaki introduces the topic of Senator RFK Jr., and Ryan offers a nuanced perspective.

Tim Ryan [43:02]: “He is so clear and so articulate... Democrats shouldn’t miss the boat here.”

While acknowledging disagreements with RFK Jr.'s stance on certain issues, Ryan commends his insights on food policy and public health. He sees potential for bipartisan collaboration on addressing systemic health and nutritional challenges, suggesting that the Democratic Party could harness these common grounds to advance meaningful reforms.

---

11. Tim Ryan’s Political Future

In the final segments, Ryan reflects on his own political aspirations and the strategic directions for the Democratic Party.

Tim Ryan [46:53]: “I am... entertaining everything now.”

Ryan contemplates future roles, such as potentially running for governor, emphasizing the importance of staying connected to local communities and avoiding the tumultuous environment of Washington, D.C. He underscores the necessity for Democrats to adopt a strategic, "Art of War" mindset—prioritizing calculated moves over reactive stances to effectively counter Republican advances.

---

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Tim Ryan provides a candid and strategic analysis of the challenges facing the Democratic Party, particularly in pivotal states like Ohio. His emphasis on authentic communication, balanced economic and environmental policies, and fostering generational leadership presents a roadmap for Democrats aiming to reconnect with and reclaim the support of working-class Americans.

Jen Psaki [48:32]: “I knew Tim Ryan would be pretty direct and straightforward... some of the things that stuck out to me about the conversation were, one, he was pretty candid about the union vote.”

The episode concludes with a reflective note on the necessity for Democrats to evolve their strategies, embracing both tradition and innovation to forge a resilient path forward.

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the depth and breadth of the conversation between Jen Psaki and Tim Ryan, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the key issues and strategic insights discussed in this pivotal episode.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Tim Ryan]

We'Re like a fighter who's been fighting too long and they just want to be in a fight. Just like you punch drunk and you're just throwing punches just to throw them because people are anxious. Okay, let's kind of get our footing here. We've lost a really big election to a guy we shouldn't have lost to twice. Maybe it's us, maybe some self reflections in order here.

[Jen Psaki]

That's former Ohio Congressman Tim Ryan. He was known to be quite the fighter when he was in the House and more recently he ran a tough Senate race against none other than J.D. vance. And he talks about economic issues and how they impact working people in a way that frankly eludes most Democrats. And he's also been pretty critical of the way leaders in his own party are meeting this moment. Welcome to the Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Tim Ryan was born and raised in Ohio and represented Ohioans in Congress for 20 years. He understands the state the way you can when you spend your life in a place and talks about the economy in a plain and accessible way. I wanted to get his take on how other members of his party could do it better, so we sat down to chat last week. Tim Ryan, it's great to see you.

[Tim Ryan]

Hello Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

So I consider myself kind of an honorary Ohioan. I mean, I cheer for the Bengals. We love Joe Burrow in our house. I have a Johnny Bench bat framed in my house. I love Raiders. I'm just gonna keep giving. I mean, I've been married to an Ohioan for 15 years. But you are born bred. It's in your soul, it's pumping through your veins. So I'm so excited to talk to you. I really wanna talk about the path forward a little bit about what just happened. But there's been, at least as an honorary Ohioan, kind of an evolution of the political landscape. I would say not just over two years, but over 20 years. How do you explain that? Why do you think that is? And I mean, my old boss, Barack Obama won Ohio twice and now Trump won by double digits.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah, I think it's a couple things. Ohio has always been a bellwether as you know, and there are certain counties, like Stark county in Canton has for years, Tim Russert used to talk about what's happening in Stark county, because that was the bellwether within the bellwether. So the national influence has a great deal of impact on Ohio. There's 13 different media markets that make their way into Ohio. You know, it's a very expensive place to run. So the national media has a very big impact here, especially on the rural areas. And so as the national Democratic brand became more coastal, more elite, that had, I think, maybe a overweighted impact on Ohio. So you couple that with the fact, if you go back to when President Obama ran in 08 and Ted Strickland was governor and Sherrod Brown was senator, and we had, you know, after the 06 election, a bunch of, I think it was eight to eight was the Democrat Republican makeup of Congress. Those eight Democrats, they were against NAFTA, they were protectionist, they were very nationalistic in our economic policies, very populist in the economic policies. And so as things started to evolve, you know, Obama was meeting with John Kasich about passing TPP at the end of his administration. Hillary's husband passed nafta. That started to kind of cement Democrats and more of the free trade zone. And here came Trump, you know, with outside of the Republican orthodoxy, being very populous, very nationalistic. And so that convergence, I would say, in 16, really started to kind of put Ohio in a really difficult spot. And it was that national and local and economic convergence that happened, it seems.

[Jen Psaki]

Like, because, you know, the free trade, being anti nafta, more populist, as you said, feels like how, to your point, Democrats ran more 15 years ago, 20 years ago. Do you think that issue, trade, I mean, how much of a core issue do you think that is in terms of where the Democrats stand and how it's impacted Democrats ability to win in Ohio?

[Tim Ryan]

I always felt like trade was kind of an entry point to a values argument, you know, an uneconomic argument. Like if you were for free trade, you didn't care about the average working guy in Youngstown, Ohio, or the Timken factory in Canton. You didn't care about them because you were just worried about global economics. And you were the elitist at that point. You were the country club Republican at that point. And that's why President Obama was able to win. You remember the Coffin ad against Mitt Romney? I mean, that's why that ad had so much impact in Ohio, is because trade as an issue. Yeah, it is. Because we know the impact of it, but it spoke to health care costs, it spoke to economic inequality, it spoke to de industrialization, it spoke to unions. Like, it hit all of these other forgotten communities. It hit all of those with just one issue, which is why it was so potent and which is why when Trump grabbed a hold of it against us, it had an oversized impact.

[Jen Psaki]

Part of the challenge seems to be, and you may disagree with me here, and I welcome the disagreement at any point here.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, that's why we're here, that.

[Jen Psaki]

There'S a nostalgia for a time where in communities like the one you grew up in and the ones near where my husband grew up, that factories, manufacturing plants were the core of the economic drivers in communities. They helped ensure restaurants were filled, they helped ensure communities had main streets. But there's a lot of modernization with technology, with AI that's just changing things, that things are never going to exactly go back. What do you think about that?

[Tim Ryan]

Oh, of course there's nostalgia. We're all nostalgic, we're all sentimental about how we grew up or, you know, what things used to be. And we all kind of sugarcoated even a little bit. The good old days weren't always good. You know, those mill jobs were tough jobs. I mean, people were working six, seven days a week, 12 hours a day, making a good living. But they would have heart attacks when they were 55 years old or 60 years old. And, you know, there was a lot of unhealthiness to the whole enterprise. So we are nostalgic about that. But I think the key is that people are nostalgic about that. And as political communicators, if you don't touch on that, if you don't touch them, meet them where they are. The Art of War has this deep principle of orthodox to extraordinary. You've got to meet people in the orthodox. You've got to meet people where they are and then lead them to the extraordinary, which I think is what Bill Clinton was able to do. I think Barack Obama was able to do that. We want that same economic security, but it's going to look a lot different. And I think, sadly, I think President Biden did a lot of the things that needed to be done to both capture the nostalgia but move it forward so the chips act right. I live in Columbus now, and not far from here is going to be the intel chip manufacturing plant. Average wage is going to be $150,000 a year on the factory floor. So we could say, yeah, the old jobs aren't going to Be here. But look at these new jobs. Look at the 5,000 union construction jobs that are building this facility over the next coming three, four, five, six years. So there's a way to kind of bring this all together where you are nostalgic and you want America to thrive again and you want that middle class to be built again. And I think why the Democrats never. And look, this is a lot more complicated. You were there too, when President Obama was trying to pass an infrastructure bill in the Republican Congress in 2011, was putting the kibosh on it. He recognized we have to do something. Right. Especially after the housing crisis, we have to inject money. I think the problem we ran into is we passed the infrastructure bill, we passed the CHIPS act, we passed the inflation reduction act, and we were never able to communicate that. Yeah, we know it hasn't hit yet, but we are re industrializing the country. And so you got to do both.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, also, I think it took a while. It's still going out the door. Some of that money. Right. I think is part of the challenge. Well, I asked this because I think there's definitely messaging and communications issues, but I think there's also a policy conversation that I don't think people should skip over. Right. Because it's not. Everything's not a comms problem. I mean, some things. Some things are. I used to have a mug that said nacp not a comms problem. Because sometimes, sometimes it's just bad policy.

[Tim Ryan]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

I ask this because I think sometimes, and you're kind of the perfect person to talk to about this. This issue of how to communicate with working voters is like shorthanded. Right? It's shorthanded. Like, this is not a hack on Senator Bernie Sanders. But I don't think you have exactly the same policy positions as Senator Bernie Sanders. You tell me.

[Tim Ryan]

No, no.

[Jen Psaki]

I think you both share a desire and interest and a passion for talking more clearly to working people. But sometimes he talks about things. And what I would consider is more of a nostalgic policy way of going back to no jobs should be shipped overseas, which I know that we need to rebuild the same manufacturing plants. How do you modernize the policy aspect of this and not kind of whistle past the changing technology because there is AI that's going to change what workers do and what the job opportunities are and aren't.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, I'm such a geek on this, like the policy and the comm stuff coming together. I got little chills when you were like starting to talk about it.

[Jen Psaki]

This is a safe Place for nerds. Let's nerd out about econ policy. We're here all day.

[Tim Ryan]

Two, two things is. The first thing is I think Bernie and a guy like me meet that worker at the same spot with a passion for that worker, with a deep concern for that worker, with a deep understanding of what those workers have gone through. Bernie and his experience. Me growing up, my dad worked swings. He was a more white collar. But the Delphi factory, like my buddy's dads worked in steel mills, like they lost their jobs. My father in law lost his job at US Steel. It's embedded in my DNA. That boy did we get screwed, you know, and nobody did anything. So you got to meet him there with that.

[Jen Psaki]

And that's the same Bernie Sanders message. 100% are screwed, the system is rigged, et cetera.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. And 100% and nobody gave a shit. That's the other piece of it. Like this. And it was the Vietnam veterans. No one gave a shit about them when they came back. And then they ended up at these steel mills. I mean, this is a Bruce Springsteen song, you know, I mean this is Youngstown. This is Born in the usa. I mean, this is why Springsteen is Springsteen because he touched upon those really deep cultural anxieties that people had. So how do you transform it? You've got to talk about AI as an opportunity, the blockchain, the same way. But we have this, this kind of reaction. Oh my God, it's going to cost jobs. I'm working with companies now, Jen, that their AI capabilities to understand codes, like building codes, like allowing building commissions to like rip through permitting. Because AI could go through it much faster than people can. Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Which means, I think. And we're just going super nerd here.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Jen Psaki]

It means also like all of the frustrations with regulatory stuff and the length of time permitting takes and the length of time it takes to build some of these infrastructure projects when the money is free, you could shorten that time, right? Is that kind of what you're saying?

[Tim Ryan]

100%. Yeah. So why wouldn't we wrap our arms around AI and say this is going to be great for us? Like these forgotten communities where you can't get building permits because there's only one person in the building permitting because the tax revenues have been down for 30 years and they don't have the staff there, yada, yada yada. We could take care of that and get these buildings renovated and get investment back into these communities. The same thing with people who are placing bids it's another company I work for that are placing bids on projects. And some people say, well, that's going to eliminate jobs. Well, it's actually going to allow companies, union companies, to, like, bid on more projects. There's plenty of work for decades in this country. It's not like, we'll slow down. We're going to run out of jobs. Like, that's not going to be a problem. All you have to do is go to these industrial Midwestern towns or down the Atlantic seaboard or into the South. Like, we need this. So wrap your arms around that stuff and be the modern party that says, we're going to make sure that more union contractors are building more stuff faster. We've got to be for permitting reform. There's a deal to be made here with both transmission lines and pipelines. You can have the IRA sitting there all you want. You can't get stuff permitted. It should not take seven years, 11 agencies. I mean, that's maddening to think, you know. And so here's the other piece of that with Doge is like, so most people don't understand how all that permitting and stuff works and all the infrastructure and all that. They don't understand that. So the guy coming in says, give me the sledgehammer because this ain't working.

[Jen Psaki]

Or the chainsaw. Or the chainsaw at cpac. That was some weird shit.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah, but, like, the visual is like, yeah, I'm gonna cut through this stuff. I'm gonna wreck this stuff. That versus saying nothing about those problems. Guess who wins that argument? And that's why we're dealing with what we're dealing with now.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. Look, that government is bloated and inefficient is a fact. It's a fact. It's just how you deal with it. Right. And so arguing against any cutting of inefficiencies is crazy. Yeah, I think.

[Tim Ryan]

Agreed.

[Jen Psaki]

Let me ask you just about labor unions, because such an important role that they play, obviously for workers. I mean, you're a huge advocate working for Joe Biden. I would go places. And just because he was a defender and stood up for union workers for so long, people will be thanking me. I'm like, Thanking me for what? I'm just, like, speaking on behalf of his policies.

[Tim Ryan]

You look like a gritty union woman, let me tell you.

[Jen Psaki]

Come on. I recognize the value of unions so much, but I'm curious about the politics of unions, because one of the things we saw, and this is why I wanted to separate sort of the role they play for workers versus political power. I mean, they all endorse terrorists except for the Teamsters, right?

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

But clearly rank and file workers. And Trump claimed this, too. Yeah, yeah. The leaders are for the Democrats, but the workers are for me. Do you think that's true? Like, is that an accurate statement of the trend? And why do you think?

[Tim Ryan]

Well, again, I think sometimes the labor leaders, I think unfairly so, especially a lot of the ones I know are seen by their rank and file members like, yeah, you're the head of the union and you're gonna be a Democrat, but Trump's for us.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. Do they feel like you're in the fancy room and I'm actually doing the work, or they still like the. They just feel like Trump is really for my thing.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah, I just think there's that cultural connection that Trump was able to make with these workers back in 2016, you know, when it wasn't Joe Biden, it was kind of Hillary and NAFTA at that point. I think that was kind of. I remember right after Trump won in 16, me and my wife went to lunch and I was walking out and, you know, still, it was two weeks later and I was still like, God, did this happen? And I run into this union guy who I've known for 20 years, and he says, how about that election? I'm like, I know, man, it's unbelievable. And he goes, I've been waiting for a candidate like this for 30 years.

[Jen Psaki]

And you were like, oh.

[Tim Ryan]

I was like, okay. Oh, have a good Christmas. Yeah, I'm out. But that was that kind of emotional connection that he was able to have with those workers. And I think there's still some of that today. We failed to, I think, pin him on not paying union workers in Atlantic City back in the day. I thought that should have been a major kind of thrust of the campaign early. And I think that's all why it's so important now that we really stay on this kind of economic message while he's running around with, you know, the different executive orders that he's doing and Ukraine and this and that, like, not really talking about what he said he was going to talk about. So we've got to kind of stay on that.

[Jen Psaki]

We're going to take a quick break here, and when we're back, Tim and I talk about what JD Vance is up to and how his role seems to be going so far. That's next.

[Rachel Maddow]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app, bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. Watch your favorite shows live, read live blogs, and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app in the.

[Luke Pepper]

Early 14th century, a mighty emperor is given a holy task to seek forgiveness for his terrible crime. He has to make a journey like no other. Join me, Luke Pepper, as I tell you the story of Mansa Musa, the richest man who ever lived and his adventure that would change the world. Here is incredible untold story over six action packed episodes on this Is History presents Empire of Gold, available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rachel Maddow]

The first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Jen Psaki]

Now is the time, so we're gonna.

[Rachel Maddow]

Do it, providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Jen Psaki]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Jen Psaki]

I did want to ask you, okay, J.D. vance, who knows that guy and what he's up to better than you? I think there's few people. One of the things that to me is a little fascinating and again, just friends that are friends of my husband's, friends who grew up in Kentucky and Ohio will say they feel like he's not legit. His backstory, now I'm asking about that. But also he's kind of portrayed himself somehow as part of this effort to stand up for workers, though he's been kind of funded and created by the tech bro.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

Who is J.D. vance? What bugs you about how he presents himself?

[Tim Ryan]

Well, you know, top of the list is he's just an ass kisser of.

[Jen Psaki]

Who like clearly Trump Tech Bros. Yeah.

[Tim Ryan]

The top ass is Trump the top ass.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay.

[Tim Ryan]

Well, I mean the top. I mean, yeah. I mean the Trump musk teal. I don't know, it's just something about where I come from, like we didn't like those guys. You know, we didn't like you're sucking up to the coach or you want the coach to like you. Dive after loose balls, you know, stay out to practice and work hard, do extra work. That's how you get the coach to like you. You don't Eddie Haskell your way to it. And I think he's got a lot of that Eddie Haskell in him that he's just gonna say whatever Trump wanted. And I used the example where Trump called him an ass kisser. He said JD's been kissing my ass for months to try to get his endorsement. And this was in Youngstown, Ohio, during the Senate campaign. And then after that, JD came back up on the stage and shook his hand and grip and grin, and they're smiling for the cameras, and I'm just like, I don't know anybody I grew up with that would do that. I don't know anybody I went to high school with that would do that. And that, in the essence, is who J.D. vance is. And now he's a really smart guy. You know, he's Ivy League educated and all that, so he's not dumb. But he now knows what to say in advance of what Trump would want to hear. So Trump really likes that because he's like, oh, we're simpatico now, because he's saying stuff that, that I think, you know. So he's very, very good at it. And I think, obviously that's how he cut his way to the VP domination.

[Jen Psaki]

To me, he's been a little absent. I don't know if that's the right word. I mean, he's been doing some things on the Hill. I don't know. You're not in his head. But it's like Musk seems to be much more powerful, at least in this current setup. But I guess I'm wondering what he wants out of it. Just to stay out of the fray. So that he can be the successor?

[Tim Ryan]

I think so, yeah. And I think he likes going to Europe and rattling cages, and, you know, he's up there to give a really important speech about the future of the United States and our relationship with Europe and talk down to them. Because he's smarter. He loves doing that, too. And so I think he just enjoys that. I'm sure Trump doesn't want him around. You know, I. I loved election night when Trump was like, yeah, and jd, yeah, he ended up being okay or something like that. Like on the stage, the 91, I'm like, oh, my God, you know, like, I couldn't have done it without him. Whatever, whatever. So I think. I think he's going to be very tame, you know, and then Trump will see what he wants to do with the reelection.

[Jen Psaki]

What kind of. Since you ran against him and you're actually, I mean, from Ohio and connected to people, what drives you craziest about what people's perception is of him? That's just wrong.

[Tim Ryan]

Well, I. I don't know if it's wrong. I mean, he. He's a smart guy, but it was like, you know, during the debate, they're like, wow, they were very civil. And you know, he leaned really on it and you know, really smart guy. And I'm like, he lied the whole time. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, what? Wait, what? He got away with lying. And that just drives me nuts. Because debates are supposed to be about getting the truth out. That's the origins of debate societies. Like, what's the truth? And you call each other out and then let the judges or the people in this, you know, matter decide. So that's what kind of gets me is like, look, we're all smart. We're also. I got a lot of. You're accomplished. Everyone's smart. Everyone's smart in their own way. I can't take a car apart and put it back together. That guy's smart.

[Jen Psaki]

Same right?

[Tim Ryan]

So like, so don't ask me. We hire people to do stuff around my house because I just, I don't do it. But the smart people come and they do things I can't do. Everyone's smart. But do you have integrity? Who are you for in this? And I guess, you know what? I guess from talking, he uses his smarts and he uses his story to help Elon Musk. So I guess I got to the point, right? That's the answer, is that he uses his God given abilities and his story and his tragedies and traumas to help people who don't need it to validate.

[Jen Psaki]

The richest man in the world.

[Tim Ryan]

It's unbelievable. So, yeah, that, that drives me nuts because you, you see, I mean, it's. You live with people who are struggling. And I think in a lot of ways he has forgotten where he came from and the people that, that are still out there struggling. He knows how to use it as a tagline or a punchline or a talking point, but I don't think he remembers exactly the kind of pain that people are still going through. If so, I don't think you could align yourself with Trump because in that regard I think they're both aligned. Is that. I just don't think Trump has the capacity to under. You listen to him talk about Ukraine, okay, if this is your policy decision, okay, you're trashing the president of the country who has been holding that country together barely, and just a disregard for not just the Ukrainians in Ukraine, but the Ukrainians in Parma, Ohio, you know, or other places in this country that are housing the refugees from that war while the men are still over there fighting and the mom and the kids are here and I met them, you know, they're here. To be so callous in talking about this again, maybe that's the right thing. I mean, I think we should help them more, but whatever. Maybe that's the right policy decision, but to do it in that way. And I think that's where you see Trump, Musk, Vance, Thiel. They're all aligned in their insensitivity, their callousness, their cruelty to people.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, that's an unfortunate, accurate summary. Let's talk about the Democrats and what the Democrats can and should be doing here. I mean, there's the policy stuff we've talked about that. There's more we can dive into on that, for sure. There's also this how Democrats talk about the economy. I mean, one of the things that I've thought about a lot is this unwillingness, which I probably was a part of at some point, to acknowledge that people were struggling, that grocery bills were too high, that the cost of living was still too high, because there was a fear of acknowledging that meant that you were saying we were failing. Right. Looking back, what do you wish the Democrats had kind of emphasized more on the economic message? And I really want to spend most of our time talking about looking forward, but you can always learn from looking back, too.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah. I'm in a fairly unique position from where I come from, and I've been in politics and all that, so I thought that again, meeting people emotionally where they are, I think if you don't do that, your. Your message isn't going to stick.

[Jen Psaki]

Meaning acknowledging we know the costs of are too high.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, even if you got to spend a little more time on it than you want to, because that's where they are. I thought a good frame and still an accurate frame to operate in, is that this took a generation, this took decades for us to get to where these communities were once thriving and had thousands of jobs to where they weren't. And within that, erosion de industrialization, globalization, automation, all of that just kind of compounded. And it hit the black community extra hard because, you know, my grandfather didn't graduate high school, was an Italian American in Niles, Ohio, but he was able to get a job in the steel mill and work for 40 years. But just as civil rights started to come online, deindustrialization started to happen. So you could be a black man in Youngstown, Ohio, and you may have barely gotten into that industrialization and be able to keep your job. So the main point here is that it took generations for this to happen. And I know you're hurting. And we just got through the pandemic. It's going to take a little time for us to right this ship. But that's why we're passing these massive bills to re industrialize chip manufacturing and wind and solar and batteries and electric vehicles. And we're doing infrastructure because we have to rebuild. And there's going to be a lot of bumps along the way here. I'm sorry for that. And we're going to do this as quickly as we can. That's why we need permitting reform to get this money out to your communities. That's why we did the local government fund in one of the last tranches of. I think Trump was probably in at that point. But it was right before the election. We gave a ton of money to local governments to do projects. You know, that's why we've done this stuff. But just hang with me, you know, I wish President Biden could have just said, just hang with me. Trust me. I know I lived in Scranton. I know Delaware. I've seen this. It's going to take a while. I'm 80 years old. I watched this whole thing go down. It's going to take a few, but just give me a chance. And that kind of thing where you're acknowledging you're empathetic, you're giving them the big picture and then you're saying, but we've laid this foundation here, these three big pillars, infrastructure chips and inflation Rejection Act. And you know what, do we spend a little too much? Maybe. Maybe we did. And that's, that's given us a little more inflation than we want. But please understand that this was the thing we had to do. We had to make these tough decisions. But we're righting the ship now.

[Jen Psaki]

That was the message. You probably remember this well in 2012 that Obama ran on. I mean, the economy was much worse then. Right. And the core of what he ran on was give us a little bit more time. We're still better than the other guy who's a wealthy guy, who's disconnected from what matters to you. Yeah, it's interesting. History sometimes repeats itself. Let me ask you about. Because obviously investment in clean energy, clean energy technology can be a huge job growth opportunity. But addressing the climate crisis and regulatory stuff that's put into place also is sometimes seen as something. But I want to know what your thought is that kind of has turned off some working class people. How do you think investment in climate and how the Democrats have handled that has impacted.

[Tim Ryan]

Well, I think it may have been a Little too much, too soon. And I just personally think, and I do some advocacy in the natural gas space of pairing natural gas with renewables. So full disclosure.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Tim Ryan]

And I supported that in Congress. And we have natural gas plants in my congressional district. Like, this has been, you know, my entire career. But I think, like saying no to fossil fuel altogether, no to natural gas, no to nuclear, no to anything that's other than wind and solar put you in, I think, a really small part of the electorate. And so I thought the, the LNG pause, for example, exporting, I think really hurt. Ended up hurting Kamala in Pennsylvania because natural gas is a huge industry there and a lot of workers, a lot of union workers are tied to the energy industry. So I think that had something to do with us losing some of those voters because it went from like, I'm not going to ban fracking, which was what President Biden talked about in pa, to the LNG pause. And then Trump, being a pretty good communicator, went to the western PA and says, I told you he was going to ban fracking. You know, people don't know the details. Right. So having a really balanced almost in all of the above strategy, which again, going back to Obama and you guys, I thought that was, that was pretty right. You know, America led CO2 reduction from 2005-19 because natural gas displaced coal. So do you have to love that? No, but it's way better. And what I would tell people is, you know what the worst environmental policy we can have is? Donald Trump being President of the United States. That's not a good one.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, he puts, like, oil barons in charge of the Department of Energy, because I think that's what he thinks they do. I mean, it's like, okay, right to your point, that is way worse. Which is kind of an evergreen statement.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah. So just balance. I think it played into the. Which is wild because of musk and electric vehicles, but it just played into us kind of being out of touch. We're for the electric vehicle crowd, we're for the lattes. You know, it just, it was one more element of us being kind of removed from those working class people.

[Jen Psaki]

Let me ask you about the notion of fighting back and how Democrats are fighting back. I mean, there are people fighting back in different ways across the country. Right. I mean, there's been some polls that have not been great for Trump. There have been people showing up at town hall meetings complaining about support by some members of Congress for Trump. But when you look at kind of what elected officials are doing in Washington with their levers of power. What do you think?

[Tim Ryan]

Well, most of this is going to be in the Senate, obviously, with the six or seven Democrats that are there, that could prevent complete insanity from happening. A couple things. One, I think our members of Congress, Senator, I think there's got to be an analog element to this of town hall meetings in your district like every week and get on the local news and start building the case. Long term, I don't think you can run around with your hair on fire on every issue. And again, I try to be very clear about this. Like, I voted for foreign aid. I sat on the Defense appropriation subcommittee. I know the value of those programs to save us from spending even more on defense money. But I don't think coming out of the inauguration you want the discussion to be Democrats are defending foreign aid while people in young Ohio are still trying to figure out how to make ends meet and eggs and da, da, da, da, da. I just think, why take the bait on that? Haven't we learned. I was on Bill Maher last week and he was like, they're crazy. They're going after. I said, they're not crazy.

[Jen Psaki]

No.

[Tim Ryan]

Like that was an intentional. Let's watch the Democrats die on the foreign aid hill here. Right. And continuing to frame Democrats. And obviously there's some waste in those programs, too. So now you just, you look like you're defending foreign aid and you're defending insane art programs in a far flung place that you have no idea where it is while your eggs are still expensive. So I just don't take the bait on everything. And I think, I think what Carville said was good play possum. Rope a dope. I think that's a smart strategy, too, and let people kind of see uninterrupted. And we just point. And just like he didn't say he was going to do that during the campaign. Right. All leading up to. I think it should be like background music on the economy. The economy. And that's not what he said he was going to do. Why is he so focused on Ukraine? That's not what he said. You know, we need to focus on home. All leading up to the tax cut. You know, here we go again. Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Extension for the highest income in corporate. Yeah.

[Tim Ryan]

And big money. Four and a half trillion dollars. You going to see any of that?

[Jen Psaki]

Deficit hawks. Where are you at? Where are you at?

[Tim Ryan]

Yep.

[Jen Psaki]

Next up on about how Democrats should communicate what's going on as Trump cuts funding budgets and federal jobs. More with Tim Ryan in a moment.

[Rachel Maddow]

It's President Trump's first 100 days, and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines.

[Jen Psaki]

What issue matters to you the most?

[Rachel Maddow]

Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the president's policies and promises.

[Tim Ryan]

Do you think now that he's pardoned.

[Jen Psaki]

Everybody he can count on this group of people again?

[Rachel Maddow]

Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Jen Psaki]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Rachel Maddow]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc [e-mail] it might.

[Jon Favreau]

Be enticing to try and sleep through the next four years, but if you're wondering how to survive a second Trump term while staying fully conscious, Pod Save America is here to help you process what's happening now and what comes next. I'm Jon Favreau and Tommy Vitor, Jon Lovett and Dan Pfeiffer, and I wade hip deep into the week's political news and fish out some political analysis you can trust. Yes, Tommy's shoes get ruined. Yes, he'll do it again tomorrow because the endeavor is worth it and so is your sanity. Tune in to Pod Save America wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

[Jen Psaki]

One of the things that obviously never run for office blissfully never will. Much harder than anything I'd ever like to do. But just as somebody who's worked in communications, it's easy to kind of backseat drive in these circumstances, I'll just acknowledge. But there are things that seem obvious to me, like there are disruptions of services across the country right now because of budgetary cuts, budgetary holds, the firing of workers that make things slower. A much better story to tell because it's a horrible story to me is veterans waiting longer to get care at the va or working families relying on government funded childhood centers who can't send their kids to preschool. I mean, there are lots of stories in every community unfortunately right now and that to me feels like a missed opportunity. But I take your point and not taking the bait. What do you think? Looking at what's happening out there. What should they take the bait on?

[Tim Ryan]

Well, I think what you just said is good. And find those people who voted for Trump.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Tim Ryan]

So now it's like the drumbeat of he just got caught up. He's running around with Musk. He's going to start playing golf. Right. He's going to be out of touch. It's going to be a lot of that. And I think having Trump voters who are saying, I lost my child care and now I can't go to work. And I thought we wanted people to go to work in America, those kind of things. So you're, you're starting to recapture the narrative of, like, we're for work, we're for workers, we're not for welfare. And here's a program that helps people go to work, and Trump's cutting it, and it plays into that bull in the China shop thing and that, like coming in with the sledgehammer as opposed to a scalpel or having real reforms. So I think those are good, too. I mean, there's. I just like usaid. I just. That drove me nuts because I was like, don't take the bait on that. I think you got to be very judicious. And it can't be personal against Trump either.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Tim Ryan]

Because there's a dislike there from a lot of people to him. It can't be personal. It's gotta be like, why would you do this? This doesn't make any sense. Because, I mean, at the end of the day, Kamala didn't lose by a lot.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, no, she didn't. Especially as the numbers were kind of finalized. Let me ask you about generational change. You're still young in the grand scheme. Same with me in Washington. We're like infants in the crib. So, I mean, I said this feels like a small thing, but I felt like it was representative. I mean, with all due respect to Gerry Connolly, I feel like. And you don't even have to a hundred percent agree with AOC's policies, but she's a better communicator. And not having her as the ranking member on that committee was a mistake, I thought, by Democrats. There's still, as you know, and I think you've talked about this, this resistance, this reliance on seniority. Right. Which means that you have figures in Washington who have, many of them served incredible terms and times, but are a little outdated and disconnected from the conversation, from the means of communicating, from how to talk about things from the country. What do you think about that?

[Tim Ryan]

The evolving media landscape? It's not is not in their vocabulary. Yeah, no, 100%. I mean, you know, I sent that tweet out about Chuck Schumer the other day.

[Jen Psaki]

The video of Chuck Schumer with the quote, and I'll start it. I just don't even know what to say anymore.

[Tim Ryan]

I just said it. Like, I don't like, sit around and tweet. I just grabbed my phone and I saw that and I tweeted it out and I set it back down and I grabbed my phone later in the day and there was like a million hits on it. I was like, oh, I must have started. Yeah, I mean, it's just like that's what lost. That was the kind of thing that, you know, we're going to win and it's Chuck and like, Chuck has a great skill set. But I think you need Chris Murphy out front, you need Chatz out front, you need Alyssa Slotkin out front. You need. You know, I think Martin Heinrich's good, you know, kind of low key but very thoughtful guy. Like those kind of people that, that look young because you've studied communications too, and you know, people don't hear you. It's like 7% of what they actually absorb is what you said.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Tim Ryan]

It's your body language and how you look. And we kind of look old, you know, and we kind of look like we're yesterday's news and we kind of look like we're losers.

[Jen Psaki]

Like we're gonna say like, tick toc, you know, or whatever.

[Tim Ryan]

Oh, my God. Yeah. So, like, I think we gotta be very thoughtful about getting young people in the key positions. I think Ro Khanna's a phenomenal communicator and kind of threads like the Bernie world and like economic progressivism, capitalistic style. You know, he kind of does a nice job with that. And I think those kind of people are what we need the American people seeing. Because again, it was Trump versus Biden. There was a lot of people that didn't want either of them to run again. And the double haters, I guess they were coined. And so we can't fall into that trap where it's like, I'll tell you, I moved from outside the Youngstown area to outside Columbus in Dublin, Ohio. And there's a lot more Republicans around where I live now and made a lot of friends. And they all said, I really liked you during the campaign. We loved your commercials. We thought you were thoughtful guy. They said, but I couldn't vote for you because you were going to go down there and vote for Schumer. And you know, what was their issue?

[Jen Psaki]

He was New York, he was old. What. What was the.

[Tim Ryan]

Just the brand. He was the Democratic, the old Democratic brand. And that's the other thing about not taking debate on everything. And I love the liberal Patriot. I follow them. I read all their stuff. They've got some great content. But they were saying, and I have been saying this too, we got to step back. Sometimes there's a strategic retreat of like, okay, wait a minute, is there a way for us to find the high ground here? And we can't because we're in the middle of a battle. Maybe we got to pull back a little bit, go to the camp, you know, I'm watching Vikings now. Like drink some ale and like, figure out what we're gonna do here, you know? Yeah, go ask Uhtred, son of Uhtred, like, what are we doing here? But like, get some space. We gotta get out of like just pounding and more into like a martial arts kind of mindset here. A more of an Art of War kind of mindset. There's a little more strategy, meaning not.

[Jen Psaki]

Punching back against every single thing. Doesn't control the Senate or the House. Yeah, there's a lot of things.

[Tim Ryan]

And the Senate is going to be tough for a couple cycles, you know. So now we're really in the trick bag.

[Jen Psaki]

It's funny you say the Vikings thing. I have not been watching the Vikings. My brother in law, who I met because we both were working together and he and I always joke about how we were like, we're hoping there's a secret meeting in a basement somewhere, figuring out what's next. We don't know where it is. And if it's a meeting of the Vikings, that's great. I hope people are meeting in the woods, figuring something out.

[Tim Ryan]

I was listening to Peter Zajens. He does all these global economic analysis. He was talking about Finland and Norway. He goes, just remember, they may look all nicey nice, but those are Vikings there. I got my wife. I'm like, babe, you gotta come listen to this. They're talking about Finland being Vikings. Vikings, you know, so I feel better about Russia now that we got the Vikings on our side.

[Jen Psaki]

I will say I think there's a number of NAT SEC women elected officials. Alyssa Slotkin's one of them. Who could just hang with the Vikings is my theory.

[Tim Ryan]

Yes, I like it.

[Jen Psaki]

On the whole notion of kind of not taking the bait, I'm kind of interested in your take on RFK because, I mean, he has made Democrats for the most Part have been pretty universally opposed to him.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

And very angry. Senator Hassan had a very passionate moment in the hearing. A number of senators. But you, I think you kind of think maybe there's some points he's making or what's your take on rfk?

[Tim Ryan]

He is. Obviously, he's got the vaccine stuff and said some stuff that doesn't sit well with me or anybody else. But this food piece, the toxic chemicals in our food, in our supply chain, he's 1000% right, and he's articulate, and he understands it at a very, very deep level. The fake food that we're eating, the fact that the whole country's got diabetes or pre diabetes, we're subsidizing fake food, highly processed food, and he's tying that to our healthcare costs. He's tying that to our sickness and why we're spending so much on Medicare and Medicaid. There's a real conservative, fiscal conservative argument to be made here. And I just think Democrats shouldn't miss the boat here. Like, look, you got to deal with people you don't agree with on everything. But he is so clear and so articulate and so right and has the science behind him and the data behind them that I think we could actually get something really, really important done. You look at depression, you look at add, you look at adhd. Why is all this stuff just come online? Since we're, like, loading our food up for our kids with red dye number five and yellow, this and all these corn syrup, weed oil, soy oil, all of this stuff, it's all fake food. And so I'm not a prude. Like, I eat ice cream, I drink beer. I like, you know, I'm not just totally obnoxious about it, but it's like, from a public policy perspective, 50% of our budget is Medicare and Medicaid. Look at people with diabetes going on these programs. And then we have Ozembic, and we're spending all this money on these drugs that hopefully thin us out, but really are really detrimental to us. We market these sugary cereals to our kids. We have added sugar, added salt and everything. I wrote a book about this in 2013 called the Real Food Revolution, which makes for a great gift. You can get it on Amazon.com but so this isn't like, oh, Bobby Kennedy. This is like. No, I've been writing about this because I've connected those dots. And I think a lot of people like Dr. Mark Hyman and Andrew Weil and like, these really thoughtful guys. Bobby Kennedy's in that Lane. And so I think we gotta set some of our personal stuff aside and that we may disagree with them on some other things and try to work with them and actually get something really good done on that.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, I mean, to state the obvious, I think that most people's opposition to him, I mean getting rid of red dye and I know it's more complicated than that. I think there's a fair amount of support for the concern with him is he doesn't believe in science, he doesn't believe in vaccines, our kids are going to be in schools where kids aren't vaccinated and a range of other things, which makes him, in my view, quite a dangerous person to be leading hhs. But is your point that. But he's there now and so there's things he's there.

[Tim Ryan]

You know, I haven't heard a Democrat articulate that position on food and ag subsidies and toxic chemicals and plastics. I've not heard a Democrat talk about that at all. Honestly. I mean, I used to, but I mean, I'm out now. So I think it's hard to work with people you really disagree with, but I think it would be really mature. And I think there's a chance Trump could end up putting the kibosh on that. And so all of these millions of people who are maha may see Trump, like we're saying about economics, he's not doing what he said. He may screw him on that too. So then who knows, maybe that you got millions of new voters that were going with RFK that may be open to a Democrat if they got the right position on some of this health and wellness stuff.

[Jen Psaki]

We'll see how long RFK Jr lasts. I'm not sure he's got the.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah, well, him and Musk and all these guys, right? I mean, how long? How many?

[Jen Psaki]

How long? Let me ask you. I mean, the Lieutenant governor of Ohio is Jim Truss. I don't know if that was on your bingo card for this period of time. In politics, anything can happen, I suppose. I mean, there's a Senate seat, there's a governor's race. You're young, as we said.

[Tim Ryan]

I am.

[Jen Psaki]

Is one more appealing than the other. Would you rather be governor? Rather be senator? What are you thinking about?

[Tim Ryan]

Just entertaining everything now. I mean, I got a 10 year old kid. So Governor, being in Ohio, staying in Columbus, not being in the middle of the insanity of D.C. you know how that schedule goes. Hey, you're going to be home Thursday night and then you got to call your wife and say, hey honey, votes through the weekend. You know, that's never fun. I did that. And the Trestle thing's a real wild card now. Interesting. He. He recruited me to play quarterback at Youngstown State.

[Jen Psaki]

No way.

[Tim Ryan]

Back in the day. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

Did you stay in touch with him over the years?

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah, I have, yeah. Oh, he was my quarterback coach. He was the head coach, obviously. And then I blew my knee out and got hurt and then left. But we always stayed in touch. And when he had a little issue with some of the tattoo thing, which is total bs, but whatever, I kind of rallied the Youngstown community as congressman at that point, and we helped get him the job to become YSU president, Youngstown State University president. So we've stayed in touch and have been friendly, and he's been a mentor to me for a while. But, like, a guy like that who went 9 and 1 against Michigan, it's like he may get 90% of the vote if he runs for office. So that would be. That would be tough. And he's a mentor. So I would, you know, obviously never run against him, but. So it'd be interesting to see because Vivek, this is what's really interesting about it, is Vivek Ramaswamy is in the race.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Tim Ryan]

And he didn't see the Jim Trestle thing coming either.

[Jen Psaki]

No. I wonder if he understands the impact of the 91 wins against Michigan.

[Tim Ryan]

If he doesn't, he'd be the only guy out of 12 million people in Ohio who do not understand that.

[Jen Psaki]

Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, you've got lots of choices to make. Thank you so much, Tim Ryan, for talking to me about all this. I really appreciate it.

[Tim Ryan]

Thank you. Keep up the good work.

[Jen Psaki]

So I knew Tim Ryan would be pretty direct and straightforward about what he thought, and I really wanted to talk to him because he grew up in Ohio, he still lives in Ohio. And this whole big question about how Democrats can better appeal to the working class, he felt kind of like the perfect person to talk to. And some of the things that stuck out to me about the conversation were, one, he was pretty candid about the union vote. And Trump says often that the leaders maybe with the Democrats, but the rank and file are more leaning toward him. And Tim Ryan seemed to agree with that notion. He also talked about how important it is for Democrats to be more deliberate. I thought that was an interesting part of the conversation in Washington. He's a supporter of foreign aid and usaid, but felt like that was the wrong fight. And I think that's an interesting thing for Democrats to reflect on that question. I also think this question of how can Democrats be the party of working people but also be connected to the modernization of the economy, to AI, to technology as it's changing, and not be reliant on a nostalgia of all manufacturing plants are going to come back, which they aren't. That was particularly interesting to me because there are very few people who understand the dynamics of that. I mean, he actually grew up in Youngstown, so that was all very fascinating. And and the other thing I would say is the way he talked about J.D. vance because he ran against him. He knows who this guy is and the callousness and the cruelty and who he actually cares about. I thought was a pretty interesting summary, especially if J.D. vance ends up becoming the future leader of the Republican Party. I guess we'll see. Thanks for listening. Listening to the Blueprint with Jen Psaki. This has been such a fun project and I hope you learned as much as I did. We'll have one more premium episode available next week with the new head of the dnc, Ken Martin. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this Premium episode next week and to get other MSNBC podcasts ad free. The senior producer for the Blueprint is Margaret Menefee and our producer is Vicki Vergelina. John Ball is our Associate producer. Our booking producer is Michelle Hoffner, and we had additional support from McKenna Roberts. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau, Mark Yoshizumi, and Bob Mallory, and Bryson Barnes is the Head of Audio production. Alex Lupica is the Executive Producer of Inside with Jen Psaki and Aisha Turner is the Executive Producer of MSNBC Audio. I'm your host Jen Psaki. Search for the Blueprint wherever you get your podcasts and follow the series.

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Felshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.