Don Lemon (2:28)

Jen Psaki, live and in living color.

Jen Psaki (2:30)

In living color.

Don Lemon (2:32)

It's so good to see you. Usually we're by satellite, right?

Jen Psaki (2:34)

We're usually by satellite. But I mean, I think I first met you, maybe I met you before this, but we spent a lot of nights, which you may or not remember, during the Democratic primary leading up to 2020 during the Trump administration, you had the glamorous job of anchoring many, many hours through the overnight, and I was often on the panel that you were moderating. But I was thinking about because, I mean, leading up to 2016, everybody got it wrong, right?

Don Lemon (3:02)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jen Psaki (3:02)

In many ways, during that primary that we were overnight eating lots of Swedish fish and whatever. That's what I remember. Mitch Lander was there.

Don Lemon (3:11)

I remember that. Andrew Gillum, that was our crew. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And Andrew, I remember he gave me, like, he had a bullet bracelet on that he had gotten for. It was about gun awareness, right? Yes.

Jen Psaki (3:22)

Yes. So that was our crew, and everybody kind of got that primary wrong, too. And now here we are. I'm not saying you got all these wrong, but I would say the media ecosystem writ large, everybody contributing and on all these TV panels all got it wrong. And here we are again, and a lot of people got it wrong again.

Don Lemon (3:39)

I didn't get it wrong in 16.

Jen Psaki (3:41)

You didn't get it wrong in 16. I didn't get it wrong in 16, necessarily. You. Because you have called things out. We did an interview leading up to this year where you had some warning signs. I mean, writ large, right?

Don Lemon (3:52)

Yeah.

Jen Psaki (3:52)

How do we keep doing this?

Don Lemon (3:53)

It's an echo chamber. It's an echo chamber, and everyone is just sort of listening to everyone else. And I think there's a lot of wish casting, especially among Democrats. There's a lot of wish casting where Republicans are just going for it. And even if they don't think they're gonna win, well, if they don't think they're gonna win, they go even harder.

Jen Psaki (4:11)

So what do you mean by we want Kamala Harris to be president, so we're gonna say she's going to win and be president.

Don Lemon (4:17)

You want Hillary Clinton to be president, so you're gonna say you're going to win for whatever reason. I'm not making a judgment about it. Either you want her to win because she's a woman, or you want Kamala Harris to win, or Barack because he's black, or because of the diversity, or just because in many ways, because of democracy. The Democratic Party is the only party that's fighting for democracy and trying to hold democracy together, I don't think they're doing a great job of it. I'm not a Democrat. I'm an independent. But I think people saying that they voted for a Democrat or they want to vote for a Democrat because they want to help democracy or save democracy, I think that's a real thing. But I think that's also part of wishcasting as well. Instead of just looking at what is actually happening and actually speaking to the People and listening to the people.

Jen Psaki (4:57)

What do you mean? I mean, I'm often struck by that, even though I've lived on and off in Washington for a long time. And now I spent a fair amount of time sitting on a cable news set. But I've spent many campaign cycles out in the country talking to people. I love doing that. Now you love doing this. And it's like sometimes people make projections and you're like, based on what? Right.

Don Lemon (5:18)

When you're out there, you get an idea of what's happening based on what?

Jen Psaki (5:22)

Yeah, but also since we were sitting on that set together, you kind of. You're now on the outside of cable news looking in.

Don Lemon (5:30)

Yeah.

Jen Psaki (5:31)

What is that like? And what do you see differently now about your old job in the industry that you wouldn't have thought at that.

Don Lemon (5:39)

Time, you know, that old thing, the definition of insanity is doing the same.

Jen Psaki (5:44)

Thing over and over.

Don Lemon (5:44)

Yeah, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. I think that with legacy media and folks who are sort of in the too close to it, they do the same thing. Every network does the exact same thing and they hope for a different thing. The ratings are gonna get better, but it's not. And that's to no one's fault. It's just changing. The media landscape is changing and we're all in bubbles. The folks who work at, I'll just put it this way, msnbc, cnn, cbs, whatever. If you work for Company A, you do things the way Company A does it, right. You become part of that ecosystem. If you work for Company B, you do that. And so I believe that we're folks who are in cable news or legacy media are all in their echo chambers and they're all doing things the way that it was done when it worked. That's like folks in high school or college, they get a haircut that works for them and they never change that haircut because it's great. It's like, you know, the football players is my glory days was when I was a football player in high school. And they never sort of sit back and take an assessment of what is really going on. So I was forced to do it and now I'm glad I was forced to do it because I see now that I was, if you want to be honest, in a dying industry, in an industry that is not going to look not anytime soon, but is moving in a different direction. And I think that doesn't bode well for the country and it doesn't bode well for politics as well, because the Republicans have figured out how to manipulate that ecosystem and to adapt to that ecosystem. People want authenticity, that I've noticed, but they don't necessarily want that sort of veneer of traditional old school. Everybody's wearing a suit or a, you know, dressed like they're going to a cocktail party and a face full of makeup.

Jen Psaki (7:33)

I would burn suits in a fire and never wear makeup then if left to my own devices.

Don Lemon (7:38)

But honestly, you could do that. You have the personality of the looks, you could do that. But not everybody can do that because people get used to, you know, my Kara Swisher says, you know, some folks get used to the black car bringing them to work and having, you know, three, four producers. We don't do that in independent media. You don't do it, you don't need it. And I think in many ways the trappings of those things, I think it's good that some of the resources are going away because I think some of those trappings really separate the individual, whether it's an anchor or reporter or whoever is delivering the information from their actual audience. So my perspective has changed on the way the operating system, but not necessarily who I am as a person or as someone who delivers the information. I've always been authentic, sometimes too authentic. And that's why maybe I'm not in legacy media anymore.

Jen Psaki (8:27)

Sometimes you got a little too authentic there too.

Don Lemon (8:29)

I know my boss used to say, I'm gonna get you a sign that says I'm on live television. Watch what you say. Because that's when I felt more comfortable and at home is when I got on the anchor desk and it started, the camera started to roll. That's when I felt like most comfortable, honestly, even in social situations, is that I felt comfortable in front of the camera. So to answer your question, I deliver in the same way, but I don't need all the trappings around it. That really separated me from my audience. And I think the folks who are in legacy media, that's what's happening and that's why people aren't tuning in. And the second thing is that the viewers habits have changed how people consume information. Yeah, how people consume it. Because everybody. I'm holding a phone now, everybody's consuming on these young people don't even have telev. In the old days you used to be a horse and buggy and then you got cars, right? Gas cars. And now we're in electric cars. It's just changing, but it's still a vehicle that gets you to where you're going. It's Just that it has changed in the way that you do it. And I think that legacy media needs to adapt to that or it's pretty soon, not right now, but they're gonna be forced to.

Jen Psaki (9:35)

What do you think that evolution could look like? I mean, you're not on a path to run a legacy media institution. I'm not asking you from that perspective. I mean, one of the wake up calls I had post election was, does anything we do matter and who's hearing it? And I mean, lots of wake up calls. I kind of strike the word authoritarianism from every script ever, because it's like, not how people talk, but there is this desire and appetite to better understand the country from people who are well intentioned, from people like you. But it's also hard to capture, right? You've done man on the street interviews. How do you capture where the country is in a way that is representative without being, I'm in a diner in Ohio.

Don Lemon (10:18)

Okay, two things. The second part I'll get to. It does matter what you say and what you do. It matters especially now when you look at, you know, what has been going on in the world. There have been wars or ceasefires and there's an election. So I think that traditional media news still has a very influential role, although waning, in making a difference in the world, regardless if it's politics or shaping, you know, policy or in the zeitgeist or whatever, still has a big influence, if only because that's what people write about, but it's not necessarily what the average person really cares about or is talking about. But people write about it, so they are influenced by it. There are a certain group of people.

Jen Psaki (11:02)

There'S like a ricochet.

Don Lemon (11:03)

Thank you very much for that. And so it's important in that way. And don't get me wrong, I think what legacy media does is amazing. I think that, you know, they're fantastic journalists every single day. My colleagues at CNN are the best. Your colleagues here at MSNBC are the best. They're the best of the best. So I'm not disparaging legacy media because I'm not in it. You asked me my perspective. I think we all need to get closer to the people. So here's the thing. When you do something in legacy media, like the fire should cover the fire. The way I cover the fire is that I have my streamers and subscribers on with me many times. They're on the screen with me.

Jen Psaki (11:40)

You're doing it live, I'm doing it.

Don Lemon (11:41)

Live and I'm talking to them. Either their comments are on the screen or they're on the screen, they have dialed in, they have a link and they click in and I'm showing it. I have feeds. You can have your own feeds now with YouTube and whatever. But what happens in traditional things is like someone in the morning meeting says, you know, you guys aren't covering legacy media. And this is, okay, well who are we gonna send this off to? Who's gonna cover it? Which producer are we gonn, which crew we're going to send, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's too clunky. It's a Buick in the age of electric car. An old gas powered Buick with, you know, not dual brakes and rack and pinion steering, but it's not in the electric car age where everything is new and it has changed, it has to. So you guys got to change. And so we're much closer to the bone, we're much closer to the meat. And then you go out to the neighborhoods and the cities and the towns and you talk to people. So I am a reporter and I'm the anchor. And so I get the pulse, not through someone saying, hey, let's go to Bob Jones over in the thing. And then I sort of take Bob Jones's reporter assessment and then I give my spin to it and then I turn to a desk full of people and then it's all sort of filtered through all of that. It's just me and the person who's actually out there and I'm talking to the people. And that's how I think legacy media needs to become leaner and go to the folks and stop sitting around on shiny anchor desks, no offense, and stop talking to people in suits and neckties and dresses, cocktail dresses, and get out there and talk to the people wearing work vests who are working on the side of the road, construction workers, people who work in diners, people who work in cafes, people who work in the shops and just start talking to people. I walk up to people and I say, hey, can I ask you a question or what do you think about this? And before they even have a chance to think about it, they'll go, whoa, hang on, they may be on the phone. They go, whoa, hold on, let me call you back. And so it's much more honest and much more authentic.

Jen Psaki (13:35)

Listen, I'm with you. I mean, one of the favorite, my favorite things we do is we go out on the road with politicians and just like spend the day with them and go actually talk to people in communities. You can't do that every day. There's also.

Don Lemon (13:45)

You do that, but when you were on campaigns, you did it even more because you wanted to. Why did you do it? Because you wanted to win those people.

Jen Psaki (13:53)

Over and because you wanted to have a better understanding of what they were, of what conversations people are actually having.

Don Lemon (13:58)

And a better understanding of what they need and what they want, not just winning them over.

Jen Psaki (14:02)

Yeah. I mean, I also think there's. Not that this is the job of any media outlet. There's a benefit to anybody running for office at any level for them to be a part of what change is that happens. Because the problem is that everybody gets caricatured out there, and people become a sliver of who they actually are, for good or for bad.

Don Lemon (14:19)

But you know what? Also the people who are there. It's. I thought I was, but I'm not really. I wasn't really reflective of the people sitting there in my suit every night. Like, I wasn't a real representative of the people in a way that I think that they deserve, and now I feel that I am, because people aren't sitting around their living room at a dinner table in a cocktail dress or a suit. And why should they invite you into their home when they're in their pajamas and you're all dressed up like you're going to church? You know, there's this sort of veneer of even respectability or a way that we want things to be that they just aren't anymore. And so if you want to reach the housewife or a mom who's coming home to take care of her kids, why not meet her at her level? At that level?

Jen Psaki (15:10)

Yeah. It's interesting when you talk about this, because it reminds me a little bit, because I worked for Obama, of course, for eight years, and when I started, we were the first White House to have the department we called New Media, which tells you everything you need to know. But it was kind of controversial at the time. You may remember this because he was doing stuff like Between Two Ferns. Between Two Ferns and the lady with.

Don Lemon (15:31)

The Bubbles or whatever in the Table. Right.

Jen Psaki (15:32)

Direct to Glozel.

Don Lemon (15:34)

Yeah, Glozell.

Jen Psaki (15:34)

I don't know where I remember that name, but in some ways, that's the kind of stuff. Not necessarily only that, which breaks through a veneer in a way, in a different way. Let me ask you. I mean, part of what I wanted to do this podcast for is to kind of explore what needs to change moving forward, which is the media. It's also kind of how, even though you're Not a Democrat. You're an independent, but you are an observer of how people communicate. Politicians, I mean, how many people have you. Thousands, tens of thousands.

Don Lemon (16:04)

People all the time stop me and say, hey, I was on your show. Remember, you interviewed me? I'm like, remember? And I just go, oh, you're like.

Jen Psaki (16:10)

That was a great interview. I don't remember Right. Exactly.

Don Lemon (16:14)

It's actually a fun, interesting thing when you just sort of sit there and they cycle people in and out for you to interview. It's an amazing experience to have had.

Jen Psaki (16:24)

When you see people now, like, if you're in the airport or something, are they like, Don Lemon from cnn, like, what do they say to you?

Don Lemon (16:30)

The guy today, when I got in the car to come here, he did not recognize me until I said, hey, it's Don Lemon. You called me about, you know, from.

Jen Psaki (16:39)

Inside Edition, Don Lemon.

Don Lemon (16:40)

And he said, oh, my God, it's you. But they're not expecting to see me that way. Now, if I got into that car in a suit and tie, hey, Don Lemon. If I walk down the street, if I'm going to a meeting, I have to wear a suit or something. Everyone. I get stopped. I get stopped. If I'm walking down in my everyday, you know, people do stop me, but not nearly as often. And it's the way you carry yourself if you are a celebrity. I'm not a celebrity in, like, a Hollywood sort of movie star celebrity. But people do recognize me, and they will approach me even more than those people because I was in their homes all the time. But it's all in the way you carry yourself. And that's a lesson to me. If you carry yourself and you have a security guard and you're getting into a black car and you whatever, then people, you know, they're standoffish.

Jen Psaki (17:21)

Yeah, they feel removed a lot.

Don Lemon (17:22)

But if you walk around like you're just a normal person. I walk around every day walking my dogs. I take the subway. But it's being approachable and real and authentic. That's it. And you want people, I believe, to feel that you're approachable.

Jen Psaki (17:35)

There's, like, a lot of lessons for politicians in this. And it's funny because when people recognize me, it's either because they're like a Democratic political nerd who watched the briefing, which is not as. Which is not the majority of the country, or because I look vaguely familiar and they're not sure why, and I have these very funny interactions with people in airports where they're like, do I know you from somewhere? And it's always awkward. I'm always like, I don't know, like, you know, our kids in school or whatever. I did have this. I had this guy at like 6am at a Starbucks saddle up to me and say, I haven't seen you since that night. And I was like, that was not me. It's like, people. I look vaguely familiar, but they're not quite sure how. I also have people, which tells you something because I've been here. I mean, my show's almost two years old.

Don Lemon (18:19)

Say like, oh my gosh, that long? I know, Congratulations.

Jen Psaki (18:22)

Thank you. But say, oh my God, I remember you from the briefing. Like, what have you been up to since then? You know? Which is also funny too. Cause it tells you how people consume information. Or people will say, I seen you on TikTok a lot. Like, what else are you doing? You know? Cause I do a lot of TikTok videos.

Don Lemon (18:38)

It's huge.

Jen Psaki (18:40)

We're gonna take a quick break and when we're back, Don and I get into how to approach the media landscape we find ourselves in. That's next.

Don Lemon (18:52)

Sly Stone became an icon.

Jen Psaki (18:55)

A Hulu original from Quest Love flying the family stone. It can't be overstated how popular they were. Variety call Sly Lives the definitive funk pop documentary.

Don Lemon (19:04)

He opened the portal. I come this way.

Jen Psaki (19:06)

Generations have been influenced by Sly. RogerEbert.com raves. It's a sonic kick to the soul.

Don Lemon (19:11)

If you've been on this heightened life and you stop, where's that energy go?

Jen Psaki (19:17)

Sly Lives, AKA the burden of black genius. Now streaming on Hulu.

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Don Lemon (19:31)

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Jen Psaki (20:15)

As we look back at the election, there's been a lot of kind of hot takes. I'll call them on why Harris lost. I'm not going to ask you to be political pundit. Or analyst here, you can interview people who do that. But one of the things that people say is like, she disappeared. She didn't do interviews. She was absent. Yeah, she was for a period of time where she did crush it in that debate. But, like, looking back, should she have spent all that time? Do you think that was a real factor, or that's kind of oversimplifying?

Don Lemon (20:41)

I think it's oversimplifying a bit. Both can be true.

Jen Psaki (20:45)

Yeah.

Don Lemon (20:46)

Right. I think that you can always do more. We're talking about Democratic politicians, right? Yeah.

Jen Psaki (20:52)

I mean, because the other version of this. Let me just give you another hot take. People always throw out there, which is related, is like, if only she'd done Joe Rogan.

Don Lemon (21:00)

Yeah, I don't know. If only she had done Joe Rogan specifically. I just think it's a symbol of something larger. Right. Should she have done Joe Rogan? I say yes, I think if you want to. Would that have helped her? I'm not sure it would have.

Jen Psaki (21:12)

And the whole backstory, which we now know more, is like, they tried to do Joe Rogan and they gave them a day, and Joe Rogan's team would only let them do it in Texas, and then they wouldn't do it the day they were in Texas. That's neither here nor there. And Joe Rogan endorsed Trump, but it is. Yes. Representative of something larger.

Jen Psaki (21:29)

Yes.

Don Lemon (21:29)

So I feel like I'm beating up on traditional media and I shouldn't, and I don't want to. But you're asking. Okay, so that's why I'm answering these things. So I think that Democrats, especially Democratic politicians, are still enamored with the patina of legacy media and the influence there, and they're not understanding where the culture is going as it relates to the media. Yes, Republicans understand that. I think even back in the day, the Obama folks understood that, but no one carried that torch forward in the party. Also, I think, you know, Democrats are sitting around being better than. I'm not gonna go on that program because I'm better than that. I'm not gonna go here because I'm better than that. Well, that's not true. You're not, because.

Jen Psaki (22:15)

Well, what does that even mean? If they reach huge audiences, what does it mean? You're better than what? Reaching a huge audience.

Don Lemon (22:21)

So look, right now as we're taping this, I have, what, maybe 360,000 subs subscribers, right. That's a lot of folks who not only. It's not like they are casually watching every once in a while they watch every single day because they get a notification and many of them are paying to watch. And so you cannot ignore that audience to be too good or too big for that audience. You have to go in many different places right now to reach people. And you just can't go on an msnbc, a cbs, a CNN or, well, Republican go on fox. Huge audience because you're preaching to the choir. Those folks are already gonna vote for you. And the people that you need to engage and animate aren't watching that. The Republicans realize that Donald Trump realized that. Where is he? He's on Lex Friedman. College guys bros are watching that Aiden Ross is giving him a cybertruck and a Rolex watch on Aiden Ross's feed. Just an independent streamer. He is going on to Theo Vaughn, who's a comedian who has a podcast.

Jen Psaki (23:23)

I mean, I listened to J.D. vance's interview with Theo Vaughn and what struck me was I was like, did I go to college with this person, Theo Von, who I probably disagree with on a million things, but he sounded like some frat guy I would have gone to college with. But two, they talked about football for like the first 10 or 15 minutes. And it wasn't forced.

Don Lemon (23:43)

It was like they talked about life.

Jen Psaki (23:44)

They talked about life. And one of the things I've been struck by or thought a lot about and I wanted your thoughts on this is like Democrats, God bless them, are sometimes very ivory tower academic. And what they feel are the parameters of what they can communicate about. It's like they're not allowed to, yes, they'll have Beyonce at an event, but like they're not allowed to talk about things that human beings care about, like sports and football and, you know, whatever it may be, whatever their real life things they do are. And it struck me so much. Cause they talked about going to, I guess J.D. vance had just been to Lambeau Field, which is a very cool place, and they talked about that for 10 minutes and then they kind of load into. So you're with Trump when he was shot. What was that like? It was like how a normal person.

Don Lemon (24:29)

Would ask the question if you're sitting and having a beer or you're just sitting around chatting. You know, Democrats feel like they're doing like some sort of policy paper on television or in an interview. And that doesn't work. I think that Democrats are too buttoned up and too afraid.

Jen Psaki (24:42)

Yeah.

Don Lemon (24:43)

And too nervous to be real people. And you know what? In some ways I get it. They're nervous about making a mistake because they're the party honestly the party of cancellation. The Republican Party's not the party of cancellation. The Republican Party is honestly the party of many, many chances and understanding and knowing who your allies are and knowing who your strongest voices are and not casting them aside because they're not perfect. The purity tests in the Democratic Party, it's outrageous and it needs to be gotten rid of.

Jen Psaki (25:12)

Well, the purity tests mean, like, let's make the umbrella smaller. And you're like, no, no, you need a bigger umbrella in order to win elections.

Don Lemon (25:18)

You also have to realize, look, I hate to agree with. With, let's just say the hearings that happened a bit ago with the hegseths of the world. When he says, I'm not a perfect person, he's right about that. Now, did that make him qualified to be the Secretary of Defense? That's a whole nother story.

Jen Psaki (25:34)

But the answer is no.

Don Lemon (25:35)

Yeah. Yes. That's why I said the whole nother story. But the idea that I'm not a perfect person, no one is a perfect person. I had a very tough time. I'm going to be honest. I live in New York. I had a tough time filling in that marker for Kristen Gillibrand. Because of Al Franken.

Jen Psaki (25:54)

Because of.

Don Lemon (25:55)

Yeah, because of the posturing and the virtue signaling that was done around Al Franken.

Jen Psaki (25:59)

I'm like, do you think she'd do that again today? I don't think she would.

Don Lemon (26:01)

I don't think she would. And since then, you know, I saw her during the hearings, I thought she did better. I was like, okay, this is better. But it was tough for me because why would you throw away one of your best allies and biggest voices and best communicators because of something that really was not that big a deal, that was forgivable? And I'm not saying it was right. But look at what Republicans do. Look at the people who were nominated and appointed. Not perfect. But guess what? They won and they're winning. So if you're going to expand your tent, if you are going to believe that in America and democracy, which is supposed to be about reciprocity and many different chances and forgiveness and all of those things, then you need to do that, and you need to stop having purity tests and stop thinking, well, I'm too good to go here. I can't go there. This person's audience isn't big enough. They are enamored with the patina of legacy media and the patina of just legacy behavior. Donald Trump has broken that mold. And I'm not saying that doesn't mean that we need to, you know, be yelling at each other and rude and insulting each other. But we live in a very different time now. Remember, women can wear dresses above their ankles.

Jen Psaki (27:16)

Thank God.

Don Lemon (27:17)

And we were in a place once. Right. Or pants, where you couldn't do that. And I feel like we have evolved to a place where Democrats don't realize they're still wearing their skirts below the ankle.

Jen Psaki (27:27)

Yeah. It's funny, there's so many things I'm thinking about as you're talking about this, because I've also switched careers. Right. And I in the first couple of months of hosting a show, I remember. And I'm not gonna name the person. Cause we love all the people. But having it.

Don Lemon (27:43)

I could probably figure it out.

Jen Psaki (27:44)

Somewhat prominent person on and interviewing them about what was happening in Congress and ending the interview and was like, we can't have that person on it ever again. They're talking in talking points. It's like when you ask people questions like, what do you do about the fact that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy? And like, what A. And they'll say, we are building bridges. It's like, what?

Don Lemon (28:05)

Yeah.

Jen Psaki (28:05)

So it's been this kind of epiphany. But I also was thinking about how Pete Buttigieg was thinking about this as you were talking years ago. He said about Chick Fil A, I don't like their politics, but I like their chicken. Which is kind of how I feel. Right.

Don Lemon (28:18)

Same.

Jen Psaki (28:19)

Their politics are terrible. We stop there on every road trip because it's good.

Don Lemon (28:23)

Yeah. My sister's in the hospital not long ago, and I was in Louisiana and my nieces wanted to stop to Chick Fil A. And I was like, okay, I'm going to take you guys through this drive through, but don't tell anybody because they'll take away my gay card. Right. And then so into there. But yes, you're right about that. And here's what people have to remember. Real people. You're talking about the conversations that you have. You know, when you go on these podcasts in Theo Von. Real people have real conversations. Real people say naughty words. Real people say cuss words. Real people don't necessarily agree all the time. I don't agree with my mom a lot of the times we have it out. But I still love her. So they have to make room for that and not think that just because I disagree with you that I can't be in the party or I can't come on your program. You should invite people on your program who you disagree with, yeah, right, or someone who has criticized you. Bring them on and let's talk about this openly. But people are afraid to do that. Just as they are afraid to. This isn't appropriate for the morning. This is not. We can't do it. People are eating their eggs and whatever and they can't have this kind of conversation in the morning. That's bullshit. They can. One of the best conversations I saw on television recently was with Morning Joe and Michael Steele.

Jen Psaki (29:35)

I was sitting right next to him.

Don Lemon (29:36)

Yeah. Oh, that's right, you were.

Jen Psaki (29:38)

I was a part of that.

Don Lemon (29:40)

That made a lot of people uncomfortable. Yeah, but good. And guess what? As I was getting dressed, that was the only time I turned up the volume on Morning Joe. Did that make me think anything less of Mika and Joe? No, I thought it was a great conversation. Now when I talked about it on my program, the right wing media, the Daily Mails of the world, the New York Post of the world, they framed it as Don Lemon calls out Joe Scarborough and Mika. And that's not what I did. I gave an assessment of what happened and then I was critical of your former boss a bit because they were talking about civility at the funeral.

Jen Psaki (30:14)

Oh, Biden or Obama?

Don Lemon (30:15)

Obama. And I said, okay, so that part I did not like. But I did not criticize Mika and Joe at all. But that's how they framed it. But still it doesn't matter. So I think that Michael Steele should go on Morning Joe more often and Joe should have people on who disagree with him more often. But people are afraid. And I know because I've been in these meetings and on these shows, we can't have that person on because they did this in their past or they did. Fox News isn't thinking about that. Republicans aren't thinking about that. And guess what? They are winning and Democrats are not winning. Left leaning media and even centrist media not winning. Because everything has to be so pure and so calculated and so curated that it's no longer relatable to the average American.

Jen Psaki (30:57)

Well, you know, you know, one of the biggest factors here is the social media aspect of this. I mean, I was sitting on that set. Michael Steele and Joe and Micah have known each other a long time.

Don Lemon (31:06)

Yeah.

Jen Psaki (31:07)

Disagreeing on that set is totally fine.

Don Lemon (31:09)

Good.

Jen Psaki (31:10)

They have no issue with you disagreeing. They didn't have an issue really with Michael Steele. Of course it got a little heated in the moment, but nobody was like throwing things at them when the cameras went off. They disagreed. So what? You disagree sometimes you move forward. But what happens Then is people on social media decide to make it this whole cat fight.

Don Lemon (31:31)

Michael Steele calls them out.

Jen Psaki (31:32)

I'm on Team Michael Steele. I'm on team Joe and Micah, whatever it may be. And it's like, that's not.

Don Lemon (31:37)

But you know what? Good for Joe and Micah for having the conversation and good for them that people are discussing it. I know they may not like it, but it's all in the way that you handle it. And what I did, I didn't worry about the criticism. I think that sometimes when you worry about it, you become defensive. And the best thing to do is not to become defensive and go, oh, that person. I'm glad you're discussing it. And that's it.

Jen Psaki (31:57)

I've been joking. I should just do like a read through of the emails and the comments I get in response, which are things like, die in a burning pit of hell with your children, you blank word.

Don Lemon (32:10)

You should hear mine.

Jen Psaki (32:11)

I mean, it is like, yeah, if you don't get wrapped up in it, it's quite freeing.

Don Lemon (32:17)

It is.

Jen Psaki (32:18)

And if you get wrapped up in it, I would have been like under a desk in the fetal position many years ago. I'm sure you would have been too.

Don Lemon (32:23)

Yeah. But I don't. I've gotten it so much from so many different demographics. From my own people, meaning black people, from Democrats, from Republicans, from white people, from straight people, from gay people that I don't necessarily fit the mold. Right. They're like, what is this sort of living heterodoxy of everything? Wait, this does not compute. And so I've gotten it for a while, but I think it's great when people disagree with me and when something is like percolating in the news and it's a controversy, what people don't realize most, it's like, tomorrow it'll be gone.

Jen Psaki (32:54)

And it's healthy.

Don Lemon (32:55)

And it's healthy and you move on. By the way, you were talking about people recognizing you or whatever. I have hate viewers and love viewers. And the folks who hate you haters are super fans.

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Jen Psaki (33:09)

I also have hate viewers and love viewers.

Don Lemon (33:11)

So invite them in, Come on in.

Jen Psaki (33:13)

And. Well, no. And hate viewers who are like wearing MAGA hats and they want to take pictures in the airport and you're like, isn't that crazy?

Don Lemon (33:20)

It's so all of these, like, dudes that are like, what'd you do with the interview with Elon and why you talk about my president that way? I go to a wedding or I go to a bar and they're all. They start having Cocktail. Hey, you're Don Lemon. Yeah. Can I have a picture with you? Can I buy you a beer? And then Tim is like, wait a minute, what's going on with all these guys?

Jen Psaki (33:38)

Tim, your husband?

Don Lemon (33:38)

Yeah. And I'm like, well, Tim's like, let's.

Jen Psaki (33:41)

Like not have an open beer. Like, you can take a picture and.

Don Lemon (33:44)

Then they won't go away because they want to talk to you all night. They're the super fans. And that's good thing.

Jen Psaki (33:49)

I always love when people come up to me and they say, I disagree with you completely on everything, but I love watching you. But. Yeah, right. But like, or something like that. It's just like a funny.

Don Lemon (33:59)

But you should remember that because then you have the people who are supposed to be your people and they disagree with you and then they cancel you. Those folks don't do that. So that's a lesson. No, no, no.

Jen Psaki (34:08)

I mean, I will say, because I am a believer in being honest and authentic at all times whenever you can. And I was quite honest about what I was hearing from people about how they felt about Joe Biden's path forward this summer. And I got Blue Madden pilloried. Right?

Don Lemon (34:26)

You got pilloried still.

Jen Psaki (34:27)

Still to this day. But you want to say to people, listen, like, I've seen Joe Biden since then. He's a tough cookie. He's been in public for like, I love the man. Right. It doesn't mean that you can't state what is actually happening in the world because if you don't do that, it's inauthentic to the people who are watching your show. And that's a responsibility. But still to this day, it's like, guys, I think you have a bigger issue. Next up, I'll talk with Don about the spread of disinformation on social media, especially after fact checking is is no longer a part of many platforms. More with Don Lemon. In a moment.

Don Lemon (35:03)

Fly Stone became an icon.

Jen Psaki (35:06)

A Hulu original from Quest Love Flying the Family Stone. It can't be overstated how popular they were. Variety call Sly Lives the definitive funk pop documentary.

Don Lemon (35:16)

Opened the portal. Like, come this way.

Jen Psaki (35:17)

Generations have been influenced by Sly. RogerEbert.com raves. It's a sonic kick to the soul.

Don Lemon (35:23)

You've been on this heightened life and you stop. Where's that energy go?

Jen Psaki (35:28)

Sly Lives, AKA the burden of black genius. Now streaming on Hulu.

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Jen Psaki (36:39)

Let me ask you about social media because. Because one of the things that is striking to me is that the standard at which even local news, and you know this, you said what you thought on television. You're not a party guy, but like you said, always what you thought. But it had to be fact. You had a whole standards department that goes through legal review on things, as we do here.

Don Lemon (37:00)

Yep.

Jen Psaki (37:00)

Fox News has that too. They obviously have had a fair amount of trouble. They had to pay a huge amount of money because of things they said on air around the election a couple years ago. But all of these platforms, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, they're held to no standard at all. And I just wanted to ask you, because you've been through as a straight talker who says things that maybe sometimes you shouldn't say on air, you've been held to standards. What does it mean that the fact checking goes away?

Don Lemon (37:28)

I don't like the fact checking going away. That means that conspiracy theories abound. That means that you can insult people because of their sexuality, because of their gender, because of their race, because of their ethnicity, because they may be a person who has special needs, that you can insult people and do that. And also that you can be racist and bigoted and all of those things and it's okay. If enough people in the community, what do they call it? The community guideline?

Jen Psaki (37:57)

Community notes.

Don Lemon (37:58)

If enough people in the community notes agree that okay, this is okay. And community notes, those aren't facts. And so we live in a time, now more than ever, where we need fact checkers. We need people to be factual. Especially during the pandemic. We needed people to be factual, but we should have learned from the pandemic. If you want me to save that I'll tell you why we should. You want me to tell you now?

Jen Psaki (38:22)

Yeah.

Don Lemon (38:22)

We should have gotten an idea of where this streamer digital media was going during the pandemic. Because you had so many people listening to the Rogans of the world and to athletes who were listening to that, and they were saying, I'm not gonna get the jab. I'm not gonna do those things. We should have had an idea about the influence of that medium.

Jen Psaki (38:41)

I know. I wonder, looking back, it's interesting. That was an indicator, and it's like, maybe Fauci should have gone on Joe Rogan.

Don Lemon (38:49)

That's what I'm saying.

Jen Psaki (38:49)

Yeah. No, this is. I'm a believer into diving into the Fox. I mean, I did more Fox News than any other. You know, that's legacy media. But when I was the press secretary. And it does make you think. It's like saying they're bad. Look at what they're doing is actually not breaking through to communicate. The people that are listening to those.

Don Lemon (39:07)

Programs and they're thinking, well, I don't wanna go on there because I don't wanna give them an audience. Well, they already have an audience, so you may as well go on and make your. And maybe you can change some minds, maybe you won't. But then again, five days later, who will care if you went on there, right? So back to the fact checkers. I believe fact checking is important. I believe in content moderation and not censorship. There's a difference between content moderation and censorship.

Jen Psaki (39:32)

What's the difference? You're a defender of free speech. Where's the line drawn?

Don Lemon (39:35)

I think it should be facts. That's the problem. I think that if you put something online in one of those sites and you know that it is not factual, you should be able to be held to account if it's not factual. Even if you're an average citizen. Right. And I think the average citizen held to account is the terms of services. They need to enforce them and people need to follow them. And that doesn't often happen. That doesn't happen a lot, I should say. So the facts. That should be the part between censorship and moderation.

Jen Psaki (40:07)

All right, Don, you're a big observer of Elon Musk is one way. Diplomatically, I could say it. Why do you think he's doing what he's doing?

Don Lemon (40:15)

Oof. I gotta tell you, honestly, I don't know. I don't know. I don't understand it. I don't understand what he's doing, and I don't Understand what Mark Zuckerberg is doing. Obviously, they don't need the money, so I really don't know. Jen, why do you think that he's doing what he's doing?

Jen Psaki (40:33)

I think it's ultimately about they don't need the money. But people who have a lot of money always feel like they need more money. We know this. Right. Or need more power or need more expansion of their global domination. Right. So when I listen to what they say, and, you know, I listened to a Marc Andreessen interview the other day.

Don Lemon (40:54)

Oh, boy.

Jen Psaki (40:55)

Well, it's interesting. This is the other thing I would tell people. You gotta listen to what people are saying to help understand it. And it feels to me like they're using free speech, which is an important thing, as a broad shield for being able to support a guy who they may disagree with on many, many, many issues, but they know is gonna help their financial interests and justify it to themselves that they have no responsibility. That's my take.

Don Lemon (41:22)

So, look, I don't know. Again, you asked me about Musk. I don't know why he's doing what he's doing. But I'll tell you about just in general, as you talked about people who. And people who. Wealthy people always want to be famous. Usually if they don't have fame and they like fame. I know.

Jen Psaki (41:37)

Yeah. They're looking for something else.

Don Lemon (41:38)

I know a lot of power. More money, people who want. Yeah. And more influence. I think Mark Zuckerberg is just kind of going along with the crowd.

Jen Psaki (41:46)

Maybe like he's following or this is one theory. They look at Musk, he's Trump's buddy. Maybe he's gonna have a lot of power. Maybe he's gonna have access. Maybe they'll have a falling out. Zuckerberg, all of these tech industrial complex bros are just gonna follow the journey here.

Don Lemon (42:04)

Again, I've been trying to figure that out, and honestly, I really don't know. Maybe just at the end of the day, that's just who they are. Maybe they just.

Jen Psaki (42:15)

There apparently was an image consultant involved in what Mark Zuckerberg recently was wearing, which is something I haven't wrapped my head around fully. In addition to the things I'm much more concerned about.

Don Lemon (42:24)

But the folks on my channel called him Screech. They were like, what is Screech doing?

Jen Psaki (42:29)

What is happening there? Okay, before I let you go, you did the Nelk boys, right?

Don Lemon (42:35)

I did. I did the Nelk boys. I did another conservative podcast. I get invited on conservative podcasts all the time. Now. Here's the Thing at some point, I'll probably do more. I don't go on because inevitably they're just gonna sort of rail at one thing. Like just sort of, you know, hone in on one thing. I would go on more often if they didn't attack me personally. And then we can actually. About my sexuality or.

Jen Psaki (43:02)

When you're on the podcast.

Don Lemon (43:04)

Yeah, yeah. And I hear them when I'm not on the podcast.

Jen Psaki (43:07)

Yeah, right.

Don Lemon (43:07)

I'll watch sometimes conservative podcasts. Cause I wanna know what's going on. And something will come up and then I'll hear my name and I go, oh. And then someone will make like a funny. And I'm like, well, I actually don't talk like that. Or they'll say something about me or something that has happened to me or someone who has said that I've done something or something that was written about me and they're completely wrong and I want to correct them. And the only way that I correct them is to go into the lion's den. But that would mean personal attacks. And I just don't. Because if you attack me personally, I'm going to attack you right back. Yeah, I'm going to meet you where you are. That is my energy going into 2025. My energy is Malcolm X. Oh, no.

Jen Psaki (43:46)

It is getting up for 2025.

Don Lemon (43:48)

That's my energy as to wherever you are. I love Michelle Obama, but when they go low, we go high. No, when you go low, I'm gonna go low with you.

Jen Psaki (43:56)

She might say something different nowadays. I found that actually, people like Pete Buttigieg, they kind of like the fight.

Don Lemon (44:05)

Yeah, I do, too. I'm gonna start going back, but for a while, I was just like. I needed to protect my sanity.

Jen Psaki (44:11)

So. Because we've been talking about how Democrats need to do more stuff, like the Nelk boys or Joe Rogan or Theo Vaughn. Other things beyond that. That's just a shorthand. Not everybody can pull that off as a reality. Not everybody can do that stuff.

Don Lemon (44:27)

But it doesn't matter.

Jen Psaki (44:29)

Well, I guess. Who do you think could do it?

Don Lemon (44:31)

I think a lot of folks could do it if they actually went into it and tried. You get better with practice. You get better when you try. And so here's what I will say. Democrats, stop with the purity test. Stop with the I'm better than that or I'm not going to give that. Whatever. I'm not. How dare they. Whatever. I'm not going to do that. Stop canceling people and go and do it. Because there's nothing that you can do that's worse than 34 criminal counts, being liable for sexual abuse, being charged and found guilty of falsifying business records, trying to overturn an election, inciting an insurrection, cheating on wives. There's nothing that you can do that's worse than that. And here's the thing. People want authenticity, or at least the feel or the look of authenticity. The people in the Democratic Party who are the most authentic, who stand out the most, who people like the most. Think about. Some people voted for AOC and Donald Trump on the same ticket, Right? Because they are authentic and they like that. They say whatever they want and they're not too holier than thou and they're not stuck up. AOC says bad words on social media or in an interview, because that's what real people do. And so Democrats need to start elevating people in their party like that. And not as much as I love. What's his name, Connally. And who, you know, wanted to.

Jen Psaki (45:57)

Jerry Connolly.

Don Lemon (45:58)

Jerry Connolly. As much as I like him, I.

Jen Psaki (46:00)

Was literally like, who are you talking about right now?

Don Lemon (46:02)

Exactly. That's the point.

Jen Psaki (46:05)

No, that was a missed opportunity. I've said this was a missed opportunity, that they didn't do that.

Don Lemon (46:08)

But aoc, Jasmine Crockett. Look, Jasmine Crockett calls someone Beast Bomb, Batville, Butchbody, and says naughty things and meets them with their own energy. After she did that, look at how much money she raised. Look at how many more fans that she got. Probably more people will vote for her.

Jen Psaki (46:22)

Well, beyond. Okay, this is the last question I'll ask you. But beyond, like, who's gonna, like, elevate themselves, get more followers?

Don Lemon (46:28)

Also, they need more. What other young man in the party can you point out the Pete Buttigieg?

Jen Psaki (46:33)

I think Maxwell Frost is a white guy.

Don Lemon (46:35)

Absolutely. But they need more of that to reach. They need to reach young men.

Jen Psaki (46:39)

Okay, so again, you're not a politician, you're not a registered party guy, but you're an observer of who's good at this and who can do this effectively. We've said aoc, We've said Pete Buttigieg.

Don Lemon (46:49)

Jasmine Crockett, Pete Buttigieg.

Jen Psaki (46:51)

Who else?

Don Lemon (46:51)

Maxwell Frost, as you said, Alyssa Slotkin. But it's mostly younger women who can do it. But I can't think of many other people who would be really, really great at it again, unless they practice. But they need to start elevating young voices. But there's no one else that I really see. Every time I see the young folks in Congress and they are at a hearing, and I'm like, yes, they're speaking up. That's the energy, whatever. And then I see the other guys and I'm like, okay, that's politics as usual. We need to respect our senior folks, and it's like seniority. And that's all true, but you also have to start creating a bench and elevating people who really represent what's going on in our society right now.

Jen Psaki (47:31)

Don Lemon, I love talking to you.

Don Lemon (47:33)

You always get it. So thank you. Thank you so much for that.

Jen Psaki (47:36)

Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Blueprint with Jen Psaki. We'll be back next Monday with new episodes. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content. The senior producer for the Blueprint is Margaret Menefee, and our producer is Vicki Vergolina. John Ball is our associate producer. Our booking producer is Michelle Hoffner, and we had additional support from McKenna Roberts and Matt Rivera. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau, Mark Yoshizumi, and Bob Mallory, and Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production. Alex Lupica is the executive producer of Inside With Jen Psaki, and Aisha Turner is the executive executive producer of MSNBC Audio. I'm your host, Jen Psaki. Search for the Blueprint wherever you get podcasts and follow the series.

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Jen Psaki (48:47)

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Don Lemon (48:48)

Holy schnauzers.

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Jen Psaki (48:54)

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