Does Nikole Hannah-Jones Have Hope?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Clock It with Symone & Eugene – "Does Nikole Hannah-Jones Have Hope?"

Hosts: Symone Sanders Townsend, Eugene Daniels
Guest: Nikole Hannah-Jones
Date: March 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Symone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels bring Pulitzer Prize winner and scholar Nikole Hannah-Jones into their “group chat” to dissect the political, cultural, and historical upheaval in America as it approaches its 250th anniversary. They discuss the current Trump administration, the rollback of civil rights, the critical stakes for democracy, and the enduring role of history and narrative. The episode toggles between hard-hitting analysis and personal reflection, spiced with humor and honesty, ultimately landing on what hope looks like in times of democratic regression.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The War in Iran & Political Chaos (00:59–22:47)

• Current Events Recap:
  • DHS shutdown, chaos in the Labor Department, and the first primaries of the 2026 midterms set the stage.
  • Ayman Mohyeldin joins for a detailed report on the abrupt war with Iran, highlighting confusion about motives, lack of Congressional approval, and shifting justifications from the Trump administration (03:01–13:42).
  • Notable Quote (Ayman Mohyeldin, 07:44): “The excuses of why we went to war keep shifting…every day I feel like the president wakes up, his team wakes up, and they're just kind of workshopping things...”
  • The war is contrasted with the administration’s campaign promises and echoes of the Bush era’s Iraq invasion.
  • Voter disenfranchisement in Dallas County during the Texas primary is dissected, revealing racial and partisan voter suppression tactics (14:09–22:42).
  • Key voter trends: impact of the Latino vote, dynamics around Israel and AIPAC in Democratic primaries, increasing relevance of stances on international issues for young voters.

2. Nikole Hannah-Jones on America @ 250: Race, Rhetoric, & the Backlash (24:27–63:13)

The Power and Danger of Rhetoric (25:34–32:53)

• Trump’s State of the Union rhetoric about “dangerous cultures” and heritage Americans scrutinized.
• Nikole Hannah-Jones (26:38):
  “We know that Trump has no shame, like, no self reflection...it is rhetoric that as much of Trump's rhetoric is just very dangerous, that it is trying to marginalize and dehumanize entire groups of people.”
• The administration’s attempts to define “who counts” as American, especially as the administration engineers a new national narrative for the 250th anniversary.
• Reflection on the danger of saying “this is not who we are” – how denial can blind Americans to potential future regression.

America's Founding, the Myth of Exceptionalism, and Historical Reality (29:54–34:31)

• Hannah-Jones references historian Kermit Roosevelt’s “The Nation That Never Was,” suggesting current policy is not aberrational but rooted in the nation’s founding exclusions.
• Rejection of “heritage Americans” as a modern rhetorical device, appropriating and distorting Black Americans’ pushes for inclusion.
• The hosts and guest agree that it’s not radical to state the system is showing its original design.

Controlling the Narrative: PragerU, Frederick Douglass, and the Second Nadir (34:31–42:06)

• Texas and Florida adoption of PragerU “history” and removal of the 1619 Project in schools.
• Hannah-Jones (38:53):
  “There were actually plenty of good white folks. Y' all just don't wanna ever...compare them.”
• The systematic attempt to erase or whitewash the realities of slavery, Black citizenship, and the Civil Rights movement.
• The fear: “If you lose racial justice, you lose democracy.”

The Second Nadir & Civil Rights Regression (42:06–50:49)

• Historical parallel with the post-Reconstruction backlash (“the nadir”): gradual but decisive stripping of Black rights and the normalization of white nationalist policy.
• “It happens so quickly with no fighting back.” (Nikole, 46:10)
• Di (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion) programs’ rollback isn’t just organizational change—it’s a cover for rolling back civil rights protections, affecting all marginalized groups, ultimately threatening democracy.

Hope, Agency & the Path Forward (55:29–63:13)

• Is the damage already done?
  “Nothing is set in stone. We will decide what our country is going to be and what we are going to allow to happen…But once we have reached this place of seeing people's rights being dissolved, [it takes a long time] to get them back.” (Nikole, 57:13)
• The importance of understanding that “our rights are intertwined with each other” – rollback will affect everyone, not just the immediately targeted group.
• Building on the multi-generational struggle, from abolitionists to Civil Rights to today’s freedom schools and bookstores as resilient spaces.

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Memorable Quotes with Timestamps

• On American Identity & Rhetoric:

  • Nikole Hannah-Jones (26:38):
    “Rhetoric is what kind of normalizes and clears a path for violence, for restricting people's rights, for determining, based on ancestry, who is worthy of citizenship and who is not.”
  • Eugene Daniels (28:53):
    “It is so, so, so true…rhetoric is what always precedes violence.”

• On Historical Memory:

  • Nikole Hannah-Jones (31:54):
    “They're creating a new terminology…stealing from Black Americans who've been trying to change language about ancestry to slavery. Now they're…say[ing] heritage.”
  • Nikole Hannah-Jones (34:55):
    “PragerU is now going in like that is curriculum…Think about the people who made that video…But they're adopting PragerU [instead of the 1619 Project].”

• On Civil Rights and Democracy:

  • Nikole Hannah-Jones (53:46):
    “It's a different thing than having the state tell you that it is illegal for you to discuss diversity…That is what you see under autocratic societies.”
  • Nikole Hannah-Jones (57:13):
    “Nothing is set in stone. We will decide what our country is going to be and what we are going to allow to happen. But I think we also have to be clear eyed about…what it takes to get [rights] back.”
  • Nikole Hannah-Jones (59:19):
    “The greatest beneficiaries in some ways of the Civil Rights acts have been white women. And we know that the majority of white women voted for this president. And now they are seeing their own rights being lost.”

• On The Forever Struggle:

  • Nikole Hannah-Jones (62:24):
    “[Quoting Coretta Scott King] Democracy and freedom is a battle that must be waged and won in every generation. And this is a multi-generational fight.”

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Notable Moments & Insightful Exchanges

• Group Chat Dynamics:
  Genuine warmth, mutual support, and friendly boldness. Eugene and Symone pull in their political and cultural experience, balancing the urgency of the moment with pointed humor and personal anecdote.
• Cultural Touchstone:
  Michael B. Jordan’s acting win used as a metaphor for communal hope and joy in times of crisis (66:29–69:21).
• Repeated Refrains: “Clock that.” – signifying moments of particular truth or importance. Humor and exasperation over how “raggedy” Black History Month has been due to political developments.

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Important Timestamps

• Introduction and Weekly Wrap: 00:59–03:01
• War in Iran & Analysis with Ayman Mohyeldin: 03:01–22:47
• Midterm Primary & Voter Suppression: 14:09–22:42
• Nikole Hannah-Jones Interview Begins: 24:27
• Rhetoric, History, and the National Narrative: 25:34–44:36
• Civil Rights Rollback & Second Nadir: 42:06–55:29
• Hope, Agency, and Next Steps: 55:29–63:13
• Culture Wrap: Michael B. Jordan & Hope: 66:29–69:21

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a bracing, informed, and often urgent account of the threats facing democracy and civil rights in America today, soundtracked by the humor and camaraderie of the hosts and their guests. Nikole Hannah-Jones, in particular, places current regression in a long historical frame, warning that safeguarding rights requires ongoing, generational work—and reminding listeners that hope is not naïveté but a choice to keep fighting.

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If you seek a deeper understanding of the current crossroads facing America, and the potent links between culture, politics, and history, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

[A]

Martha listens to her favorite band all the time. In the car, gym, even sleeping. So when they finally went on tour, Martha bundled her flight and hotel on Expedia to see them live. She saved so much, she got her seat close enough to actually see and hear them. Saw dog. You were made to scream from the front row. We were made to quietly save you. More Expedia made to travel savings vary and subject to availability. Flight inclusive packages are atoll protected.

[B]

Oh, no.

[C]

My coffee. Brawny here.

[B]

New brawny 3 ply is now more absorbent.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

Got a clean shirt.

[A]

Do you wear plaid? Some of the strongest. I do not think what you said was controversial.

[B]

What you said.

[D]

Well, I think some people will think what she said is controversial.

[A]

But it's true, right? They will have issues with it, but that's because sometimes you look in the mirror and you see something ugly.

[C]

Let me drink some coffee.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

I'm taking a sip as well. Greetings. What a week it has been already.

[B]

What a year this week.

[D]

It's an understatement. As you just heard, we have the incomparable Nicole Hannah Jones on Clockett this week. She'll be joining the group chat in just a bit. And believe me, they do not want to miss this one. No, it's very good. It was a conversation for the ages. But first we need to set the backdrop for our conversation because there is, as you may have heard, a lot going on.

[A]

Just a little bit. The Department of Homeland Security still shut down while the secretary, Kristi Noem, was grilled by lawmakers on the Hill.

[D]

They embarrassed her and to be very clear, it was unnecessary grilling. The Labor Secretary is shedding staff left and right.

[A]

We had the first primaries of the 2026 midterms. We were all over it on msnow Tuesday.

[D]

All over it. And since the last time we spoke, the Trump administration has actually kicked off war in the Middle East.

[A]

That just stressed me out that so

[B]

many things I say tonight that you must lay down your weapons and have complete immunity or in the alternative, face certain death.

[A]

As usual with Donald Trump and anything, especially war, there are many, many unanswered questions about what we're doing in Iran and how any of this ends. So we brought on an expert and there's no one better to have this conversation. Ms. Now's Ayman Mohanin. He is one of the hosts of the Weeknd Primetime and he has covered the Middle east for years. Libya, Iraq, Gaza, Egypt and Syria.

[D]

Thank you, Amen for taking the time for coming to the group chat, because the Streets need to understand what's going on. I would like to start this with saying, look at the entire week being here. The weeknight, the weekend pride, the whole weekend. The entire week is right here on this podcast right now. Clock that. Amen. When we said we wanted to, well, we needed to talk about this because folks need to understand what's going on. This is part of the cultural zeitgeist. We were like, who could come on and not bore us to death and keep it, keep it cute and relevant and no one other than Ayman Moyhead.

[B]

Yes, I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

[D]

Let's lay out what happened since Friday night slash very early Saturday morning in the United states, which was 10am and the start of the work week in Iran. So obviously, as we're having this conversation, things are changing. But what the hell happened, ama?

[B]

Well, unbeknownst to any of us, Donald Trump decided to start a war while he was negotiating with the Iranians about their nuclear program. So, I mean, that's it in a nutshell, right? If you've been following the news over the last couple of months, last couple of weeks, you've been hearing about these talks. America's having talks with the Iranians about their nuclear program and how we wanted them to stop enriching uranium and what kind of deal we're going to get. So that's the Omani foreign minister, the guy who was negotiating between the Iranians and the Americans. Flies.

[D]

Did he know about the war?

[B]

No, nobody knew about the war. Nobody knew about the war. Nobody. Other than it seems right now, the Israelis and the Americans knew about the war. And, and that's why I was saying, like, he gets on a plane, comes to J.D. vance, tells him, hey, we're making progress. Comes on the air, tells American media we made progress. The Iranians are willing to do stuff that they've never agreed to before. And everybody's going to bed Friday night thinking like, okay, there's a little bit of hope. Maybe we'll make a little bit of progress. We all wake up at 2am to the sounds of, of American and Israeli missiles raining down on Iran and the

[A]

sounds of amen, Allahdeen on Ms. Now, baby.

[D]

Amy was on for literally 24 hours. I was like, come on, what's going on?

[B]

I got tell you, if it wasn't Ramadan, I would have been in a very different situation on a Friday night. You.

[A]

So that's for the uncut version.

[B]

We're very lucky.

[A]

You're very.

[D]

We are glad for our coverage. And your Job process.

[A]

Friday night, I was at home.

[B]

I was in bed at 2am not having a hookah.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

You know something that I think has been confusing for a lot of people? This is Americans, me, people all over the world is why they did it, why they sent the aircraft carriers, why they launched the bombers, why they launched the missiles. Because they didn't even pretend to try to get the American people to care about it. They didn't go to Congress, which is the Constitution says they're supposed to do so and all. They've been all over the place. Amen. With how this is going to work moving forward and why they did it. They don't seem to have a plan.

[B]

No, they don't have a plan.

[D]

Can we play Marco Rubio for the folks listening? Because this was on Monday of this week that we are recording this podcast, and this is Marco Rubio's explanation for why we did it. And, Amy, you tell us if this. This makes sense.

[B]

There absolutely was an imminent threat. And the imminent threat was that we knew that if Iran was attacked, and

[A]

we believe they would be attacked, that they would immediately come after us.

[C]

And we were not going to sit

[B]

there and absorb a blow before we responded. Because the Department of War assessed that if we did that, if we waited for them to hit us first after they were attacked and by someone else, Israel attacked, they hit us first, and we waited for them to hit us, we would suffer more casualties and more deaths. We went proactively in a defensive way to prevent them from inflicting higher damage. Had we not done so, there would have been hearings on Capitol Hill about how we knew that this was going to happen and we didn't act preemptively

[A]

to prevent more casualties and more loss of life. Guys, that's the whole proactively in defense.

[D]

So they were going to hit me, so I hit them first because I knew if they.

[A]

No, no, no, my friend was going to hit them.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

And then they were going to hit me. And so I hit them first. Instead of going to my friend, be

[B]

like, girl, maybe don't hit them. It's actually, to be honest with you, it's probably the most honest thing he's ever said. Because if you follow the Middle east, if you follow the Middle east, you know that the current Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has talked openly for decades about wanting to get rid of the Iranian regime. Nobody loves the Iranian regime, but the Israeli Prime Minister has made it very clear he wants to topple that regime. So he basically told the Americans we're going to carry out this strike exactly like what we did last summer when Americans got involved after the Israelis began that war, the 12 day war. And Marco Rubio just gave out the whole ball game right there. I mean, it's beyond absurd.

[D]

So since when does America take orders from Israel?

[A]

Well, let's not forget this week also, when reporters asked Trump about what Marco Rubio said, right? He started saying, I maybe pulled them into this. So it's all like, even Trump is off Met.

[B]

So it's like, I don't know what

[A]

the real thing that happened is. Neither do the American people.

[D]

Well, they're lying, though. Here's the thing. I thought last summer when the United States got involved, we obliterated. I'm using air quotes for the people at home. We obliterated Iran's nuclear capabilities. So how do we obliterate their nuclear capabilities in June of 2025, but in the spring of 2026, we got to go to war because of their nuclear capabilities. There's an imminent threat to us. They're lying.

[B]

They're lying. And I'm so glad you brought that up, because the excuses of why we went to war keep shifting. Right? It was the beginning. It was about nuclear program we obliterated. Then it was about ballistic missiles, but we hit them first, they haven't. Then it was about, we want to topple the regime. And then we realized, like, oh, we can't topple the regime. That's going to be really hard to do. So we can't use that as an excuse anymore. So every day I feel like the president wakes up, his team wakes up, and they're just kind of workshopping things, and they're like, oh, let me see what I can kind of come up with today that I can get the American people to buy. And you see this in the way that he's speaking to the media, because he'll come out one day and be like, I'll take two or three days. Then he'll go on, like, axis and be like, no, it should be about four to five weeks. Then I'll be like, we're trying to find people that we can work with inside the regime and do the Delsey Rodriguez thing that we did in Venezuela where we keep the regime in place, just replace one guy symbolically. And so every day you're waking up and you're like, now I understand why they couldn't go to Congress. Because there's no way anybody in this administration is competent enough to go to Congress and say, here is the evidence that we've been able to accumulate, here's what we've been able to build up as a case to take to the American people. Now vote on it. Forget the 435 members of Congress, they can't even go to the Security Council. That just has five members, three of which are actually their allies.

[A]

One thing that's so interesting to me in this moment, and it happened after Venezuela too, is that we are asking everyone to hold a lot of thoughts in their head. And I think it's possible. But the conversation around it sometimes makes it feel like there's an either or. And people can hold in their head that the leader of Iran, right, and the leader of Venezuela, we're terrible people. And they're happy that, and we're all happy that they're gone. They can also hold in their head that they are concerned and confused about what it looks like for the future. So Eamonn, when you look at the way this is, destabilizing to the region, destabilizing to the world, whether that's the Strait of Hormuz and the oil and the economy, or just the act, My parents live in Dubai. The actual day to day that the fear that people who are living in the Middle east are under right now with no explanation as to where this is going or how we got here.

[B]

I've got family all across the Middle east that are American citizens as well. You'd think that our government would have at least issued a warning to say, look, you know, just out of an abundance of caution, if you wanna leave, this is the time to do it. We don't know how this is gonna play out, but we're giving everybody 72 hours to make these decisions. That is a responsible government that cares about the wellbeing of its American citizens, that is now playing catch up and trying to get hundreds of thousands of American citizens out of the country and not even helping them, just putting out freaking alerts on Travel Advisor.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, literally, like here, Expedia.com here's the website where you can book your ticket while you're watching. All of these European countries who are not involved in the war, trying to get their citizens out, giving them clear instructions as to how to drive out from one country to the other, get to Oman, fly out from Oman. The difference between incompetence and responsibility versus irresponsible and incompetent. And that's what we're dealing with right now.

[D]

The government's inability to convince the country, frankly, the voters that any of this makes sense, that there is a reason for this. Really reminds me of the Bush administration's campaign to get the American people to believe that we had invaded Iraq because Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. You know, as the millennials. Amen's still a millennial. He older millennial, but he a millennial. There's a millennials here. We all remember that whole time. We remember 9, 11, we remember Colin Powell testifying in front of the United Nations, Judith Miller at the New York Times publishing inaccuracies about the tubes.

[A]

And those were later revealed to be lies. But at least, at least, amen, the administration made a case. They made the case. The case wasn't great.

[D]

I mean, the case was a lie, come to find out.

[A]

But the court, they tried. They went through the motions. They went through the motions. And this is in an administration that isn't even pretending to go through the motions at this point on this.

[B]

This is my theory. Donald sold no bigger lie to the American people than the idea that he was not going to get us into any more wars. Everything else that he tried to sell to the American people during the campaign, people were kind of like, you know, buying some of it, maybe not all of it. There was a lot of grievances. But the one thing that I can assure you Donald Trump sold two people in America that he was not going to do with such clarity that it got people, even got some Democrats who were a little bit upset with Kamala Harris about Gaza, people who were independents upset about Gaza. He convinced people, no more wars. No wars in the Middle East. This is the biggest betrayal of Donald Trump's campaign promises out of anything else, with the exception of the big lie back in 2020. I can't think of a bigger lie that Donald Trump has sold to the American people. And the worst thing about it is that he knows that. And that's why he was like, I can't go to my base with this. And if you watch right wing media right now, with the exception of the Mark Levins and the Ben Shapiro's, he is getting roasted by the people that elevated him to power. The Megyn Kelly, Tucker Carlson's, the Dave Smith, the podcast Bros, Theo Vaughn, these people who elevated him and gave him all these platforms, none of these people right now are talking positively about what Donald Trump is doing in Iran. And he knows that more than anyone.

[D]

Amen. We actually have that. Let's play the sound of Donald Trump promising no more wars.

[B]

One is strong and powerful military. And ideally, we don't have to use it, you know, we had no wars.

[D]

Four years we had no wars.

[B]

Except we defeated isis. We defeated ISIS in record time, but we had no wars. They said he will start a war.

[D]

I'm not going to start a war. I'm going to stop wars.

[A]

I'm so shocked that the FIFA peace awardee I know did not is going to war.

[D]

I'm just mad. I was supposed to be on Abu Dhabi this upcoming weekend. Child.

[A]

And also the way we are talking about it is one way, but it is very serious. And making decisions like this. My dad was in the military.

[D]

Americans have died too many times.

[A]

Americans have died and we don't know

[D]

the reason that they are dead right now. The war. There's no explanation for why we're in this war, why Americans are dead. It's distressful. Sorry, Eugene.

[A]

No, no, no. That's right. That's all I gotta say.

[D]

Clock that.

[B]

No, well, it's true.

[D]

Amen. We're actually not gonna let you go. You gotta stay in the group chat.

[A]

Yeah. Hang out.

[D]

You wanna talk about the primary results. We were both up late, late Tuesday night talking about it on tv. So again, I'm tired of talking about this with Eugene. I'd rather invite someone else into this conversation with us.

[A]

It's actually more of I want to see you. It's not us.

[B]

I'm here for you.

[D]

I came for the conversation.

[A]

Most of the results were pretty expected. The plot twist came in.

[C]

Texas and Dallas county has had problems with the administration of their election today.

[D]

It was chaos.

[A]

Chaos and also the locations of where

[D]

people could vote because of the mid decade redistricting. So it was chaos throughout the day. People were turned away from the polls

[C]

because I was at this one polling place the entire night. And before the election judge left to come here to the building that you see behind me. I got the numbers from him and he said that 495 people had voted there today. More than 400 people were redirected to other polling places because they had arrived to the wrong polling place.

[D]

Like black and brown voters on a very consequential election. And it only affects Democrats.

[B]

And there was a big push to

[D]

try to extend voting in Dallas county as a result of that.

[B]

To give those people an opportunity to vote. After all, a Dallas judge ordered the

[D]

polls open until 9. Well, Attorney General Ken Paxton asked the Texas Supreme Court within the last couple of hours to overturn the Dallas judge's ruling, which also paused the vote counting. Left the votes that were cast between seven and nine in limbo. Crazy Jasmine Crockett, running to be the Democratic candidate for Senate, said voters are being disenfranchised. Unfortunately, this is what Republicans like to do. And so they specifically targeted Dallas county. And I think we all know why. Wednesday morning, she conceded to James Talarico, and that is why we were up so late on Tuesday night. Okay? Amen. Thoughts?

[B]

Oh, guys, what are we talking about here? We know this is the playbook. Caroline Levitt stood at the White House podium and told us that she's not gonna rule out National Guard or members of ICE are gonna be at the polling stations in the midterm elections. Excuse me, not the National Guard. But she didn't rule that out. Whether it's in Texas now, in Dallas county, it's a dry run. Everybody wants to see what they can get away with, how far they can push the limits, how the judiciary is going to respond in these moments of chaos. What's the American public going to do when there is this moment of chaos? Are we just going to roll over and accept the results of the election, or are we going to try to fight and try to correct all these loopholes and mistakes that happen in our system? And so right now, what they're doing is not sitting here and looking like, oh, this is about one race in Dallas County. The headline should be, in America, the people should be allowed to vote, and we should make it as possible. It should be as easy as possible for every American to vote. And if a court says, extend the polling stations by two hours, then, dammit, extend the polling stations by two hours. It's not rocket science. So I'm not sure why the Texas Supreme Court is making it difficult for people to vote. I'm not sure why the Republican Party does not want people to vote.

[A]

Are you not sure? You being.

[D]

Are you really not sure? Because when you talk to Democrats in Texas, particularly from the Texas Democratic Party, they will tell you that the laws that are on the books make it very hard to improve voter access for people in the state. So are you surprised? Let's be honest.

[B]

No, I'm gonna be honest with you.

[A]

I'm not surprised.

[B]

I should not have said I'm surprised. What I should have said is I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed.

[A]

Yes, because if you let them.

[D]

Shanann, they gonna. Shanann again.

[A]

Correct.

[D]

We can't leave this conversation, though, without talking about the racial dynamics of the race. Okay? White people all over America have been talking about it. People of color are gonna talk about it right here on this podcast. Why, y'? All. I'm just Keeping it real. I'm keeping it real. We have to discuss this because the streets are talking about.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[D]

The streets are talking about it. Two things can be true.

[A]

The setup was crazy because

[D]

the setup was a little insane. It wasn't scripted at all. This is why you watch. This is why you listen. Two things can be true. Jasmine Crockett, there were a lot of obstacles put in her way. There were a lot of questions about her electability. And I think in Texas, when people talk about electability, when they're talking about black women, black people writ large in a statewide race, they are talking about if white people will vote for them, right? So there's that dynamic at play. But I also think that there was some traditional campaign infrastructure lacking with what she did. And you cannot, as someone told me in Texas on Tuesday, they said, look, you can't TikTok your way to a Senate seat. And I think that there are many lessons from this race, and I do think that there are racial dynamics and gender dynamics at play, but I don't think that is the sole reason why she is not the Democratic nominee for Senate.

[A]

And there's also the fact that for Talarico, what's most interesting about his win, right, because he has been named as the winner, is that Latino vote. And I think that is another racer dynamic that is going to be interesting to watch in Texas in November, but also around the country, because if this is the moment in which the Latino vote begins to increase in a way that we haven't seen before, that will change the dynamics of the election in November. Eamon, what do you think as we're moving forward, all of this means.

[B]

I'm going to say one thing, and you guys know me because you know my politics a little bit on this subject. I think one thing that was a differentiator in this issue was the question around Israel. I think that was something that James Talrico got ahead out of early and was able to kind of clarify his positions that he was not going to take money from aipac. He spoke about the situation in Gaza with a lot of compassion and a lot of sympathy. And he talked about how he was prepared to condition aid to Israel based on Israel's compliance with international human rights. Now, I watch this very closely, right?

[A]

And I'm.

[D]

But people lied about Jasmine Crockett's position. It's not like she had a different position than Talariko on this.

[B]

Well, she definitely did not speak about it with clarity. And I want to say that because I've had her on my show. And I'm. And I asked her that question, and I asked Talariko the same question. I said, are you going to take money from aipac? And he said he was very clear that he was not. And to be clear, her position was a little bit. She tried to be a little bit more nuanced about saying their relationship with Israel is important and this and that and stuff. And she tried to tiptoe it. And I'm trying to say, like, I have a lot of respect for Jasmine Crockett. She definitely is a groundbreaker. But I will say that I think on that particular issue, she should have been a little bit more progressive and should have spoke with a little bit more clarity on it. I'm not saying she spoke wrongly about it. And I think, like, again, to draw a parallel to the former vice president Kamala Harris, I think Kamala Harris had a lot of empathy and a lot of sympathy for the situation. I think her heart was in the right place. I think she just couldn't articulate that in a policy way that convinced voters to go along with her. And we got stuck with Donald Trump. So to come back to this point, I think that you're absolutely right. We judge black women and black candidates by a different metric in this country than we judge other people. That's a fact. I think it's a much harder bar for black women in this country, especially in politics. So I'm not even gonna say that's not a factor. But I do think in this particular race, there was that added layer of the situation of Israel that kind of haunted her with progressives. And I think it probably makes the margin of the difference in the vote between them.

[A]

Well, and young voters.

[D]

And young voters. And young voters, very much so, are keyed in on this issue to Amen's part. This isn't the only race. I mean, obviously there's North Carolina 4, where AIPAC and the money being taken and whatnot in the last week or two. Come on.

[B]

That's a lot of money. That is a lot of money.

[D]

Come on. And that's a CBC member. Validity, Valerie Fouche, who was up against Nita Alam. As we had this conversation, the race was still too close to call. But the fact that it was close is because this issue is something people are keyed in on.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Let me just put a final button on that issue, because Gavin Newsom, I'm sure we're going to be talking about.

[D]

Gavin Newsom is like, don't. He's like, look, baby. Gavin Newsom saw the polling and all of a sudden he talk about an apartheid state. Things that I never thought I would hear the sitting governor of California say. Y' all go look it up for yourselves. Child. That's another couple weeks ago.

[B]

Was talking to Van Lathan on higher learning class.

[A]

It's awesome.

[B]

He's like, aipac. I don't know why you're talking about aipac. That's interesting.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

No one's ever asked me about aipac.

[A]

Interesting.

[D]

It looks like someone is talking to him about AIPAC now, baby. Gavin Newsom got some polling and got some talking points. He said, I don't know if I'm running for president, but I think I might be.

[A]

We have some new.

[D]

They said Gavin Newsom was like. And another thing,

[A]

There's gonna be a lot of Democrats moving forward that are gonna be taking some cues from that hundred percent.

[B]

And that's. And that was the only thing I wanted Jasmine Crockett to do. I wanted her to get ahead of that. I wanted her to see the same polling that Gavin Newsom is. That is the old playbook where you have to kind of tiptoe around. We got a special relationship and we're gonna maintain it. And Israel has a right to defend itself. We get all that. We get all of that. We've been living through two years of watching a genocide livestream on our phone. We need to hear where you're gonna come down. I'm putting an end to this kind of abuse of international law. And that's what we needed to hear from her in this race. That's my two things.

[D]

Those are kind of talking points. Gavin Newsom got. Literally said that very, very thing.

[B]

Child.

[D]

We're gonna wrap this up. Amen. Thank you. We appreciate you for joining us.

[B]

Anytime, guys. Anytime.

[D]

Oh, you can get to come back. I think he held his own, right? Yes.

[A]

Correct.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We appreciate you. Our next conversation is with Nicole. Hannah Jones.

[A]

We love.

[D]

It's gonna be right here after this. Stay with us.

[B]

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[A]

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[D]

We're friends and colleagues, and on our new podcast, Ms. now presents Clock It. We are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.

[A]

Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it, too.

[B]

Ms. Now presents Clock It. Listen now new episodes. Drop Thursdays for ad, free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to Ms. Now premium on Apple Podcasts.

[A]

Welcome back. Y' all know Nicole Hannah Jones. Come on now. She won a Pulitzer in 2020 for the 1619 Project, one of the most impactful pieces of journalism and scholarship of any time. She founded the center for Democracy and Journalism at Howard and co founded the Ida B. Wells Society for Investigative Reporting at Morehouse. She's very busy. She's also working on opening a bookstore and bar in Bed Stuy, Brooklyn.

[D]

Just like Mark Lamont Hill, who was our guest last week and who owns a bookstore in Germantown, Philadelphia. Okay. The people are reading, Eugene. They're reading and owning bookstores. We love.

[A]

We spoke to Nikole Hannah Jones at the very end of Black History Month. That's how we had to end it.

[B]

Well.

[D]

Cause it was terrible because it was

[A]

raggedy, the rest of it. And after our conversation, I felt like I could run through a wall.

[D]

It was everything. So power to the people.

[A]

Nicole Hannah Jones, thank you so much for joining us in our group chat. We really appreciate it. You are the perfect person to have the episode we're shooting at the end of Black History Month, a raggedy Black History Month. I must say, it's been lots of racism, raggedy stuff. So we appreciate you coming on.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

I wanna start with something that President Trump said at the State of the Union, because I think it kind of underlines and undergirds how this administration, and frankly, a lot of folks in the Republican Party think about this country as we enter our 250th anniversary of the country. Let's listen to this.

[B]

Supporting these cultures through unrestricted immigration and open borders brings us problems right here to the usa. And it is the American people who pay the price in higher medical bills, car insurance rates, rent, taxes, and perhaps most importantly, crime. We will take care of this problem. We're going to take care of this problem. We are not playing games for me,

[A]

as soon as I heard that, you guys, it was like, he's not talking about people anymore. Usually he said they're importing problem people, but he's talking about cultures, which is very specific language, and saying, we'll take care of this problem. Nicole, how are you? How do you think that helps to tell the story of where this administration is going moving forward when it comes to the culture and politics?

[C]

Where does one begin? Yeah, I mean, actually watching that clip, what I'm most struck by is JD Vance sitting behind Trump with this smug look on his face, as if he's not talking about J.D. vance's wife and children. Children and J.D. vance's in laws. It's just remarkable, frankly, to watch someone who is married to the child of Indian immigrants to sit there smugly while Trump disparages immigrants of color. I mean, it's like, what are we even talking about here? Like, we, we know that Trump has no shame, like, no self reflection. The fact that he himself, of course, is a product of immigrants, including German immigrants, who were not also always accepted by, like, the English, who believed that they were like the true white people of America. And so it is rhetoric that as much of Trump's rhetoric is just very dangerous, that it is trying to marginalize and dehumanize entire groups of people. And we often don't treat rhetoric as what it is. Rhetoric is what kind of normalizes and clears a path for violence, for restricting people's rights, for determining, based on ancestry, who is worthy of citizenship and who is not. And of course, we as black people in America understand just how dangerous that is.

[D]

What you hit on is something that, frankly, Eugene has been talking about a lot, and it's really been popping up in our group chats. A lot is about this idea of who gets to be American. And Eugene really laid it out on the table for us as we were talking about the kind of conversation we were gonna have with you. Is that the 250 birthday of America? The government, this current government, the Trump administration, it's a cultural project, and they're using this moment that we find ourselves in actively trying to define what an American is. And they are chipping away at the history. They're attempting to erase the history that we all know to be true in order to craft this narrative, but eventually a reality that they would like to see. And I just think your point about the rhetoric is what always precedes violence is so true. It is so, so, so true.

[C]

Well, yeah, I mean, if you look at the ICE campaigns, immigration Enforcement campaigns, the Supreme Court basically saying, you can target people based on their background, based on them, their skin color, how they talk. They are not white. Basically, it's explicit that this is a racial campaign. If you look at the Trump administration and the language of heritage Americans, whatever they think that means. Right. And we know what they think that means. But just think about, like, they're creating a new terminology, which I frankly think is, like, most things really stealing from black Americans who've been trying to change language about ancestry to slavery. Now they're trying to change language and say heritage. And my question has always been, well, you know, are we part of that? Because, you know, we were here longer than almost everyone who's claiming that they can be called a heritage American. But I'm gonna say something that may seem controversial. I don't know.

[D]

I think we listening.

[C]

You know, I just finished this book called the Nation that Never Was by a historian named Kermit Roosevelt. He's basically, you know, arguing that. And if we look at it in this 250th year, this is exactly the America that our founders put forth. And our founders, you know, the official white founders, would not be in disagreement with Donald Trump and how Donald Trump is defining who Americans are. We certainly were not considered Americans or citizens. Indigenous people weren't. People of color in general, were not Americans were very narrowly defined as people who came from Europe who can be racialized as white. And so we want to be like, oh, he's, you know, he's going against the very idea of America. I would argue that he's actually affirming, in many ways, the very idea of America. And that the America that we see today, as Professor Roosevelt argues, that's a product of the destruction of that old America, that's a product of the destruction of the America brought forth in 1776. And, of course, the destruction comes in the bloodiest war in American history, the Civil War and the Reconstruction Amendments, which then bring forth this America that we have today. And that's also then why we're seeing efforts to overturn, to delegitimize, say, the 14th Amendment and birthright citizenship, because that's a very different America than the America of the founding.

[D]

Actually, the 1776 Commission that the Trump administration reinstated is now the narrative frame for America's 250th birthday. And that commission, obviously, was created as a direct result, frankly, of Nicole's work.

[A]

And when you look at the ways in which this administration is trying to force people to celebrate the 250th anniversary, like Brendan Carr, the head of the FCC, said he is. You know, they're telling people that that day they should be putting on programs that show the best of America, that is patriotic, which. Who gets to decide what that word means? And, Nicole, I do not think what you said was controversial.

[B]

What's your.

[D]

Well, I think some people might have. What she said, controversial.

[A]

But it's true. Right. They would have issues with it. But that's because sometimes you look in the mirror and you see something ugly now. So, Wendy, I'm drinking some coffee.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

I'm taking a sip as well.

[A]

One of the things that's so interesting is that every time that we've had, especially during the Trump administration, the first one and the second one, we've had people that say Democrats, who say, this is not America. And I know what they mean. Right? I know what they mean when they look at what's happening with ice. I know what they mean when they watch and see the Trump administration try to dictate the culture of this country and who's allowed to be a part of that culture. I get what they're trying to say, but it is who we are. And I think that it actually is much worse to say, this is not who we are, when it is, it's who we've been. The next thing they should be saying is, it's not who we have to be.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's who we are. But it is a choice to stay within that.

[C]

You said it perfectly. And I've been thinking a lot about this. I mean, again, we understand rhetorically what people are trying to do when they say, this is not America. And so for me, it's like some people actually believe this, though. And to me, that's like we get rhetoric. And when Frederick Douglass, who originally argued that the Constitution was pro slavery and it was right, you can look at all the provisions protecting slavery. It is a pro slavery document. And then at some point, he realizes, actually, it's probably not an effective argument to say that our Constitution condones slavery if we're trying to say slavery is illegitimate. And so he announces this change of opinion, and then he begins to say, well, actually, our Constitution is upholed by slavery. He doesn't really believe it, but he understands rhetorically, you have to convince Americans that slavery is antithetical to our founding ideas, even if he doesn't believe it. But I think, actually, so often when people say, this is not America, they really do believe what they're saying, and that is dangerous, because then that blinds us to the danger of this country, of, you know, the reason black folks are always like, yes it is because we've had a very different experience with America, which means we understand what this country is capable of. And so I fear when I hear people saying that they don't actually understand what this country is capable of. And so that makes us much, much more susceptible to what's going to happen. And that's frankly how we got here, is a bunch of well meaning Democrats or moderates or whoever they think they are who didn't actually think it could get as bad as it got and still don't think it can get as bad as it's likely going to get.

[D]

It can and will get worse, frankly. Oh yes, you mentioned Frederick Douglass and you know the administration has these things called freedom trucks right now. And the freedom trucks are these six double wide trailers that are driving around America essentially telling the story. And I'm using air quotes of America's history. And you know who is providing the information that goes inside the freedom truck is Prageru. Okay, Prageru. Prager University.

[A]

Yeah, explain it. Cause some people listening to this are probably like, what the hell is Prageru?

[D]

Prager University is a nonprofit advocacy group basically, and it's a media organization. And it was co founded by some conservative folks, a radio host and then a screenwriter. And their whole thing is putting out content from their particular perspective about what the history of this country is. And one of the videos that went viral from them was their explanation of what Frederick Douglass had to say about slavery. I want to play it for you and then we'll talk about it on the other side.

[B]

So you're trying to work for change

[D]

inside of the American system?

[A]

Precisely, Layla. Our system is wonderful and the Constitution is a glorious liberty document. We just need to convince enough Americans to be true to it.

[D]

And people like Garrison don't just want slavery abolished, but the whole American system.

[A]

You are correct. His approach is called radical. That means a complete fundamental change of

[D]

everything that seems silly. There are so many who did the voice.

[A]

Why does he look like this? Like, I have so many issues with this clip.

[D]

The clip is taken from an animated episode that Prageru put out called Leo and Laila's History Adventures with Frederick Douglass. They travel back in time to meet Frederick Douglass and. And again, the quote is out of context, like they're intentionally misleading with what Frederick Douglass believes. So the statement that, well, this isn't who America is. They are trying to indoctrinate that in every single way. And there are some people that won't do the research, they won't do a fact check, they won't question what is being put before them. And I am concerned about the institutional knowledge or the lack thereof, frankly, that is being preserved and how this rosy ass version of America is being trotted out all over this country as though this is actually what it is. And the rest of us are being unreasonable. Cuz that's what they're saying. The conservative people gonna listen. Cuz they are listening and Steve Bannon is a listener. They gonna say, oh, these radical lunatics, they're being unreasonable. They hate America. I think our ancestors, and we love America enough what black people have been through in this country to continue to want to push the narrative and the story forward and the experiment forward. I don't know what gets more loving than that, right?

[C]

Well one, I swear to the audience, I did not know y' all were gonna talk about that video.

[D]

I know, right?

[C]

It just, we just popped up, it just worked well. And that quote, a glorious liberty document comes exactly from when Frederick Douglass announces his change of opinion. But see, this is how misinformation and disinformation works, is there's a kernel of truth to it, right? Just enough truth that really convinces people of the lie. But what I actually found, I mean, there's a lot that's astounding by that clip. And we should all be very worried because Prageru is now going in like that is curriculum. They are working with, for instance, the state of Florida and Texas to actually create curriculum that all children who are in public schools will be exposed to. So think about the people who made that video. The same people, you know, Florida, you can't teach the 1619 Project. And 1619 Project was created by actual historians, but they're adopting Prageru. But what I always find remarkable about something like that is they're disparaging a white abolitionist, right, William Lloyd Garrison. So y' all could actually see yourselves in good white people, right? You could actually uphold a William Lloyd Garrison and say, we reject the slaveholders. We reject. You know, these are the same people. They're putting up monuments and defending monuments to Confederates while saying we're not racist, but then rejecting actually seeing yourself in a white person who actually believed in the abolition of slavery. And that's always very revealing to me about like how we want to remember our country. There were actually plenty of good white folks. Y' all just don't wanna ever, you know, compare them.

[D]

Y' all only wanna talk about the Confederates.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You wanna see yourself in the confederates and then get mad when people say that, you know, maybe. Maybe you hold abhorrent racial views. This battle over history is so important, and too many progressives, I think, saw it maybe as superficial or funny, like, oh, look how stupid that history is. But you reshaped the national memory so that you could pave the way for your policies.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

And that's why they're driving around in these freedom trucks. That's why they want to diminish the history of racism, specifically anti black racism. Because if you're trying to overturn the 1964 Civil Rights act, if you're trying to overturn the 1965 Voting Rights act, if you're gutting civil rights enforcement across the federal government and instead arguing that white people are the primary victims of discrimination in the United States, you have to then hide that history because the history helps us explain why did we ever need these laws in the first place? Why are black people more likely to face discrimination? Because we have this whole history. So you hide that history because you plan on adopting regressive policies and convincing white Americans that they're the real victims? Well, you can't do that and tell history truthfully. So history is actually very, very powerful. And there's a reason the Trump administration has spent so much time on historical narrative and trying to wrestle control the historical narrative. It's actually not superficial. We just have treated it.

[A]

So what's so interesting of that last point you made is exactly why Simone and I wanted to start this podcast, because the history and the culture right is often seen and has been by Democrats, Republicans, Independents, especially, people that are in elected positions in this country as like a sideshow. Like, as, like that's over here. But as Simone likes to say, it is, in fact, the blueprint. It is, in fact, the. When they are trying to arrest the culture, they're doing it for a reason. And Donald Trump understands that more than anyone. And, Simone, you stressed me out when you were like, it can get worse. And it makes me think of. Well, it makes me think of the nadir. Right? So for folks who don't know this is after Reconstruction, when they're, you know, we have members of Congress who are black. All of a sudden, we have senators, there's some Civil Rights act, we have some senators, there's some civil. Yeah, there's civil rights acts that are in, I want to say, 1875 and 1866. Check me, Professor. But you have all these things that are happening the 13th and 14th and 15th amendments. And it feels in that time that we're moving forward. And the nadir is the backlash. It is literacy tests, segregation. It is poll taxes. And you have argued publicly in different forms, articles, and you did a great article at the end of last year, that, that there's a world in which we get into a second nadir based on the rollback of civil rights in this country. And I think that a lot of people are not taking that warning, that very well researched warning into consideration as we're thinking about the kinds of ways in which this Trump administration is changing the culture and who gets to be an American in this country.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I would argue we're already there. We're at the cusp of it. So if you study history and look, it doesn't happen overnight. It didn't happen overnight with the fall of reconstruction. It was actually gradual over 20 years that you began to see within 20 years, every black congressman is gone from Congress. We see re segregation. So there were integrated schools in the south, there were integrated facilities in the South. And we see these laws that lead to complete segregation. You see this kind of slow, gradual stripping of rights. You see the Supreme Court, which is very much mirroring the Supreme Court we have today, that is condoning racial apartheid, that's condoning the stripping of these rights. And so I think we are seeing that. And I really am trying to make the argument our generation, y' all are younger than me, I think, but, you know, I was born in 76, so I was part of that first generation post civil rights.

[D]

Yeah, I was born in 89.

[A]

Me too.

[C]

None of us have ever experienced Jim Crow. None of us have ever experienced legal segregation. But we are now seeing a stripping of rights in a way that none of us have experienced. And we have certainly lived under some racist presidents. I would say probably the most openly racist president that we lived under was Ronald Reagan. Well, wait, no, Y' all are too young for that.

[D]

We missed it.

[B]

We missed it. We missed that one.

[C]

Y' all are too young for us.

[A]

We heard about it.

[D]

Right?

[C]

But. But we have never. We have never lived under a president as openly white nationalist as this president and his administration. And so I think sometimes we start to get immune to it. There's this process of normalization. That's why, you know, Al Green, Congressman Al Green holding up that placard saying black people are not apes was so important because we've become anesthetized to it. It's almost like, oh, we know he's gonna say something racist. We Know he's gonna do something racist. But this is the President of the United States who is also enacting policy, right? Who is also targeting institutions and programs that are trying to integrate black people, that are trying to bring about equality for black people, women for transgender Americans. So those two things go together. And I think it's like the proverbial frog in the kettle. Like the water's getting a little bit hotter, a little bit hotter. We don't realize it's actually, it's at the boiling point. And I think we are there.

[D]

It really does feel like we are there. And it's kind of crazy because I think a lot of people view the fall of democracy, right, or the rollback, you know, taking us back to the yester times when we were basically in actual chains or proverbial chains. They view it through the lens of what they see on television, like movies, right? And it's very dramatic and it's swift and you know, buildings are burning and the sky is dark. But the reality of the situation is it's actually more benign than that. It creeps up. And so, yeah, you can, your favorite movie is still coming out. You can still get your Lululemon and your Matcha. The coffee shops are open, schools are still happening, right? Elections will still happen. Authoritarians, Mark Elias likes to say, authoritarians love elections, child. They just don't want them to be free nor fair. But they like elections cuz it gives them the veneer of authenticity, of democracy, even though there's no actual democracy there. I think what happened in Minneapolis and what was happening in Chicago and here in Washington D.C. these were dramatic flashpoints. The killing of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy, you know, the SWAT teams helicoptering into a building in a black neighborhood in Chicago in the middle of the night and literally dragging people out of their beds. The National Guard in the streets of cities all over this country, these are like flashpoints, but very sinister things are happening under the surface. And I think about the companies and the DI rollbacks from the companies who nobody has brought a lawsuit against them, right? They all just decided to make these changes on their own. They complied in advance. And that is for me the scariest part of this, because there's a lot of complying in advance going on and not enough people holding the line.

[C]

I would argue it's not even complying. I think that this is just what they wanted, right? Like how quickly universities and institutions folded with almost no resistance tells me they just were looking for a reason. And I think that's Even more scary, right? Like, it happens so quickly with no fighting back. And even now, you know, for instance, the courts have ruled against Trump's anti DEI mandates in education.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Just the other day, NYU announced that it was ending its affinity group graduations. Right. So even as the courts are saying, actually, he has no legal ability to tell you you have to end dei, they're still doing it because this is what they want. And I think this is where what's really important for us to understand is allyship for black Americans and other marginalized groups has always been extremely fickle. There are these moments of interest, convergence.

[D]

I'm gonna take a sip. Cause is she preaching? I'm about to take up a collection. Wait. In a second.

[C]

There's not a real commitment. And so what happens? The real commitment, honestly, historically, is to white unity. White folk want to be united with their people, and they will work on racial justice for a period. But to have, like, that sustained fight for justice, it has never happened. This is what ends reconstruction. It's like, you know what? We can't make the white folks in the south behave. And frankly, we're tired of fighting with y'.

[D]

All.

[C]

We have business interests. We have common lineage. So we're just gonna have to leave black people, these problem people, to, you know, to fend for themselves, because we want to have. And we're in a period like that. Just, you know, look at who was blamed for the election loss was not the people whose majority voted for Trump. It was everybody else. For, like, why'd you have to keep talking about racial justice? Why'd you have to keep talking about being gay and wanting equal rights? If you just would have been quiet, they wouldn't have had to vote for Trump and not actually blaming the people who voted for Trump. So that, to me, is what makes this moment feel so precarious, is that we're being told the only way that we could turn this around is we have to be quiet about the injustice that we're experiencing. We have to stop demanding our rights, and we, frankly, have to reach our hands across the aisle to people who despise us, to people who are saying, like, we want to try to take away the rights that you have. And I think that that's what's scary. And this is why studying history is so important. And this is also why we're seeing so many efforts to really restrict our understanding of a true history. America had multiracial democracy for a brief period after Reconstruction.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We also had insurrections and coups all over the country. So when January 6th happened, you had pundits on TV say, oh, we've never experienced this before in America. That's a willful ignorance. Right. Like, there was a coup in Wilmington. There were coups all across the state in Wilmington, Delaware.

[D]

Wilmington, North Carolina.

[C]

Wilmington, North Carolina, North Carolina, 1898. Right. The Wilmingtons, they called it a race riot. It was a race massacre. And white supremacists overtook and ousted a biracial, democratically elected representative government and reinstated, openly reinstated white supremacy. We saw that. So when Trump is talking about nationalizing elections, when he's going down and seizing ballots in Atlanta, when he's specifically targeting black cities in swing states, we have seen this roadmap before, and people somehow still believe all we have to do is get to the next midterm.

[D]

And yet.

[A]

And yet, if we. If we get to.

[D]

But when she says it like that, Eugene, it's like, well, damn.

[A]

I think it's really important because we have used the words dei, we have used the words diversity, equity and inclusion. This is how, you know, everyone's gonna get fixed after 2020. Right. Everyone's doing all this.

[D]

That the George Floyd dollars is what I call them.

[A]

Correct. But your argument, and I think it's so key, and I hope people don't miss it, is that the rollback of DEI is actually the rollback of civil rights. And that is a very different conversation. That also means that it's not just, you know, black people, brown people, people of color tend to be the canaries in the coal mine. So when they start taking our rights, your rights are next. Everybody else's rights are also next. And so explain to people the importance of understanding that the rollback of DEI is a sanitized way of saying people's civil rights in this country are being rolled back and thrown out the window.

[C]

Yeah. I think that's such an important point. And this is what happens when we start allowing people to define much more broadly what was supposed to be civil rights. Right. Like, the very idea of DEI is not that language, diversity, equity, inclusion is new. You know, when people think of that, they tend to think of, oh, I had to do this training that I didn't like, or someone made me, you know, want to think about white privilege. I don't care about any of that.

[A]

I gotta say, bipoc now, right?

[D]

Oh, yeah, bipoc.

[C]

Maybe there were some excesses there. I don't know. I don't care. Like, anytime when people feel like they haven't had the ability to speak, then you tend to speak very loudly. Right? So, fine, but we're not actually talking about that. What we're actually talking about is most of these programs that are being called DEI were civil rights and integration programs. They were efforts to try to help specifically black Americans who had been excluded by law from all of these institutions to gain a foothold and have an equal chance of getting in. When you look at. When Trump, in his very first days in office, is targeting what he calls dei, the first thing he does is repeal an executive order about enforcing the law against employment discrimination. He repeals a policy that says that federal contractors cannot operate segregated facilities. This is not dei. This is straightforward civil rights that he is couching in the language of DEI in order to stop opposition. Right. Like, you cannot at least not yet say, I oppose civil rights.

[A]

Right.

[C]

For now, look at.

[D]

Right. Even Trump was like, you know, I mean, some of it was a little bad, but no, I mean, it was okay. You know, I love black people. We did a Black History Month celebration. It's all right.

[C]

You can't do that yet. I can't say that that's not coming. So he's used the language of dei, and then we have allowed them to do that. So that's why I was trying very hard with my writing to turn the language back so we can call it what it is. No one is fighting. Let me not be hyperbolic. Most of us are not fighting. Most people are not fighting to retain diversity trainings. In fact, I was a big critic.

[D]

I am not fighting to retain diversity.

[A]

Don't touch my damn hair and don't call me no names.

[D]

And that's what we exactly like. I just want some respect.

[A]

Right?

[C]

An opportunity of that industry. Because I did feel like, you know, it was a lot of performance. A lot of organizations clearly weren't taking it seriously. They were having, like, DEI trainings. But if you looked at who they hired, it wasn't making any progress.

[D]

But, Nicole, I don't want people to miss your point there. I don't want people to miss that point. Because the thing about a conspiracy theory or some of these radical ideas is there's always a little kernel of truth to it. And I think a lot of people. I mean, we are black, and we are agreeing that, you know, some of this diversity, equity, inclusion stuff, like, went a little. I could say. I just. I think some of it was, like, excessive. It's like, that's not the actual issue.

[A]

Some of it was created by white people. It wasn't made by the people who were supposed to they didn't even ask us, they just wrote it.

[D]

Correct?

[C]

Yes. Facts.

[D]

And that notion, there are white Americans that really do feel that way and they have glommed onto that piece and now have used it to dismantle or to attempt to dismantle actual civil rights gains in this country. That's the rub.

[C]

That's exactly it. And that's my point is they were very savvy, right, in saying, oh, I think they might have gone a little too far here. So we can use that and couch these full on attacks on civil rights in the language of something that most people are not going to fight against. And we have not been savvy enough in pushing back and saying, no, this is actually civil rights. And the other point I would make is you could disagree and not like a training or whatever it is. Right. But it is a different thing than having the state tell you that it is illegal for you to discuss diversity, that it is illegal for you to try to work on diversifying your institution or teaching these concepts in school. So even if you are a critic of these things, you, any of us should feel deeply concerned when the federal government or state governments are saying, you can't use the term black, you can't use the term race, you can't use the term gender, you can't even discuss these ideas. That is what we're seeing and that is what you see under autocratic societies. It is the targeting of marginalized groups, it is the erasure of language, and it is taking control of a history that only glorifies and justifies your power. And that's where we are. And that's what makes leading up to this next election so dangerous.

[A]

Nicole, you have stressed me out.

[C]

I've done my job.

[A]

Everyone. We should all be very stressed and concerned. But I guess my question is, is the damage already done? Is there a world in which, you know, after the first nadir, right. Our other ancestors, you know, the folks after the first crew did, the civil rights movement, right.

[D]

I'm gonna start referring to them as the first

[C]

crew.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

The second freedom fighter, they fought for the Civil Rights act, the Voting Rights act, right.

[B]

So.

[A]

And desegregation in this country. So there was a moment in which we were pulled out of that nadir. Right. And that the federal government on paper said, you can't do these things as you see us in this second nadir. And you see us, those civil rights protections being pulled back and clawed back and taken away. What will it take for us to get to like, to that next civil Rights, the next world where we fix it again or is the damage done?

[C]

Well, I don't think the damage is done.

[D]

Okay. I was about to say we need hope.

[C]

I don't think the damage is fully done.

[D]

And we have hope.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Yeah. There's something we can do.

[C]

You don't talk to me for hope.

[D]

That's not my role clearly.

[C]

Because.

[D]

But this is realness and we appreciate it.

[C]

The truth is. Yeah. Eugene, it took 80 years.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean that's what we have to be honest about. Like the lowest point of the nadir is considered the 1920s. The Civil Rights movement. The modern civil rights movement can be marked right at the end of World War I. So the nineteen teens.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It would not bear fruit until the nineteen sixties. Right. So continuous struggle. So I say that to say, yes, we will decide. Nothing is set in stone. We will decide what our country is going to be and what we are going to allow to happen. But I think we also have to be clear eyed about once we have reached this place of seeing people's rights being dissolved, what it takes to get them back. So if we're smart, we'll stop it before those rights are fully dissolved. But I fear we're all seeing that the whole idea of America was held together with some duct tape and some popsicle sticks. And as soon as you have someone who simply says, I don't believe in any of this and I don't care what our kind of civic agreements were, we see that there are really no real systems of checks and balances. And that's what's very frightening. Because the thing I think is most important, and you kind of were getting to this, Eugene. The civil rights acts really democratize America. We treat these as being about black Americans rights. But these are about are we going to actually be a democracy or not. And if we lose racial justice, we lose democracy. You can't have democracy and suppress the rights of marginalized people at the same time. And I think one thing I've been looking at, for instance the eeoc, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission just filed a case against Coca Cola for a women's. It flew a bunch of women leaders to a conference to support women who obviously have been marginalized in leadership. And they sued. And so what I'm thinking people are going to find out is you might have thought DEI was just about black folks. You might have thought civil rights were just about black people. And so you didn't really fight too hard to protect it. And now a whole lot of people are going to find out. Your rights are about to be compromised too. Right. The greatest beneficiaries in some ways of the Civil Rights acts have been white women.

[A]

Yeah, same.

[C]

And we know that the majority of white women voted for this president. And now they are seeing their own rights three times.

[A]

Three times. Correct.

[C]

Three times being lost. And so I need us to understand that whether we believe it or not, our rights are intertwined with each other. And it might get us first, but it's gonna get you next. And that's what we need to understand. So what happens now? It depends on us. What are we going to allow?

[D]

It may not seem you didn't set out to be hopeful, but I do think that that is a hopeful point. It is. And you talk about, I mean, the point about 80 years between the lowest point of the nadir and then the civil rights. But 80 years within that 80 year time period, institutions and organizations were built. Thought leaders came to the forefront. We have the writings of, you know, the James Balboa's of the world and Nikki Giovanni. And the work of the civil rights movement was built brick by brick by black people, by women, by gay black people, but also allies, people within the Jewish community. It's not lost on me that much. Like many people really keyed in and paid attention. Once Alex Preddy and Renee Goode, two white Americans were killed in Minneapolis. They keyed in and they said, well, what is actually going on here? Same thing during the civil rights movement when two white Jewish Americans went down to stand with civil rights organizers and they died. People started saying, well, what the hell is going on here? They're killing white people. So I do think that we are in a moment where people have to make a decision that they are going to lock in and do the work, whatever the work is in your lane. And I feel like you do it in conversations like this, but you're building a freedom school in Waterloo, Iowa. You have a bookstore with drinks. Cause we were talking last week, like sometimes you need little drinks with the bookstyle, given what's going on in the world.

[B]

Correct, Correct.

[D]

Obviously, the work that you've been doing at Howard and whatnot, these are all things, I think, that are good examples for people to understand that you have to. In these times, you gotta find your lane and live in it and do what you can with what you have. Because we are building the comeback, if you will, brick by brick.

[C]

Yeah, okay. I feel you.

[A]

She's like, fine, hold.

[C]

I appreciate you bringing it back there because, you know, the most recent piece I did for the New York Times was on White Race Traders. And I really like, try to place Renee Good and Alex Preddy within this history of white people who have rejected the idea that they have to be at odds with other people based on how those people are racialized, who have used the privilege they had and put their lives on the line to fight for justice. And that's why I talked about William Lloyd Garrison. It's like, look, you can choose. We don't have to be constrained by this racist ideology, this sense that we have to, to, you know, if one person or one group is ascending, I must be descending. We are all in this together. And I think that there are. I mean, clearly what's happening in Minneapolis demonstrates there are enough white people in America who believe that, you know, our fates are tied together, who are rejecting this xenophobia, this autocracy that seems to be overtaking our country. And I'm just asking folks like, steer into that, but also understand this is not a short term struggle. This is not a struggle that's gonna be banished in this next election. It's not gonna be banished by the next presidential election. So people just need to realize that we're in this in the long haul. As Coretta Scott King, you know, said, democracy and freedom is a, is a battle that must be waged and won in every generation. And this is a multi generational fight. I think that we're in right now.

[A]

A forever fight of this country, probably. Nikole Hannah Jones. A lot of history, a little bit of hope.

[D]

That's what we gonna call this episode. A lot of hope. A lot of history, A little bit of hope.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

We appreciate you so much for coming on. Thank you so much.

[D]

Thank you so much. We literally thank you. Amazing.

[C]

Thank you. I enjoyed it.

[D]

We taped with Nicole Hannah Jones at the last work day of Black History Month because our schedule is full and frankly, we were.

[A]

We needed it.

[D]

We needed it. Correct? Yes. I'm still energized by it. We hope you feel the same. We're going to take a break now, but stick around for the side chat. The First Amendment guarantees freedom of religion and protects us from government imposed religion. But across the country, officials are pushing prayer and into public schools and blurring the line between church and state in ways the Constitution doesn't allow. The Freedom from Religion foundation exists to hold the government to the law to keep public institutions neutral on religion. Visit FFRF US newyear or text Ms. Now to 511511 text mississippi now to 511511 to join text fees may apply.

[A]

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Visit sling.com to learn more.

[D]

Being an American right now is a wild ride. The headlines come fast, but what do

[C]

they actually mean for people's lives?

[D]

Lives.

[C]

I'm Alex Wagner, and on my new

[D]

crooked media podcast, Runaway Country, I'm talking

[C]

to people across the nation to uncover how political chaos is shaping their everyday realities. Join me and some of the smartest

[D]

thinkers in politics to ask how we

[C]

take back the reins of a runaway nation. Listen to Runaway country with Alex Wagner

[D]

every Thursday, wherever you get our podcasts or watch full episodes on YouTube.

[A]

Welcome back. Time for the side chat. You know, I have to say, that interview with Nicole Hannah Jones, it healed something in me.

[D]

Did it heal it? At one point, I thought we was about to all lose our jobs. Me, you, and Nicole Hannah Jones, she's less concerned about that even. She was like, oh, is that all right? But it was good. It was a good, real conversation. I mean, the 250th anniversary of this country is. It's a nice inflection point to look

[A]

back, a nice inflection point to reflect.

[D]

To reflect and then to also take a look at, well, where the hell are we actually going? And that 80 years, maybe 80. I was like, well, dang.

[A]

It's very stressful.

[D]

It is stressful. It is sobering, but it was necessary. So shout out to Nicole and shout

[A]

out to you for bringing us back to life.

[D]

What can the people y' all got?

[A]

Hope.

[D]

Where's the hope?

[A]

What can the people give the people Some agency and something excited to move through.

[D]

Yes, we have to have hope. Where there is no hope to people perish. Where there's no vision, they perish as well, child. But we need a little hope to get us through the day.

[A]

Just a little bit.

[D]

So shout out to hope.

[A]

What's bringing you hope right now? I'll tell you what's bringing me hope.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

She's like, nothing. Ms. Hope can't find anything.

[D]

I brought the hope in the last segment.

[A]

So it's my turn now.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Michael B. Jordan winning Christmas.

[D]

He's bringing you hope.

[A]

Yes. Okay, so play Viola Davis, who? Icon of her own, right? Announcing Michael B. Jordan. For a winner at the actor awards,

[D]

the actor goes to.

[B]

You are shining her.

[D]

Michael B. Jordan.

[A]

Now see, there is, there is nothing better than black people looking at the. You could always tell when a black

[D]

person, when somebody won because it's like Delroy Lindo embracing Michael B. Jordan. That is his mother that he hugs. Look at how everyone in the crowd is so excited for him. He won male actor. Best male actor in a leading role. To be clear, he played three. Two and a half.

[A]

Two and a half.

[D]

He said yes. Okay. Two ends and a vampire. Come on. Sterling K. Brown is excited for him. Everybody was excited. Michael B. Jordan earned this.

[A]

He's well liked in Hollywood.

[D]

Very much so.

[A]

This is about voting. I also think that.

[D]

Can we just be clear? Voting. Because people are like, okay, y' all excited he won this one. But what about the Oscars? The voting for the Oscars doesn't actually close until this Thursday. I'm being told about here. So there is still times for the Oscars because everybody in Hollywood who is a voting member, they saw what was going on at the Astrowards. They've been chatting. Michael B. Jordan's PR people have been working overtime. The folks been sowing the seeds. Correct. So we have until Thursday evening to see what's going down on this Oscar category. So Michael B. Jordan is still in contention. He could still get it.

[A]

It's so interest because at the very beginning it seemed like Timothee Chalamet was gonna win it. But we have moved forward.

[D]

My sister in law, by the way says that that was a really good movie and people should go see it.

[A]

But should he win an Oscar for it, is the question.

[D]

I don't think so.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

I think Michael B. Jordan should win the Oscar. But I'm also not a voting member.

[A]

Right. And I also am biased. I think that he should win for a lot of reasons. What did Issa say? Y' all seen it? Google it.

[D]

Yes, yes, yes. I got a jacket that actually says that I am rooting for everybody. Black. Some days I wear it to. To the grocery store. I have also wanted to work. I'm unapologetic about how I feel about this Oscars category. Justice for Michael B. Jordan. And we're not talking about it. But I would also argue justice for Regina Hall. She did an amazing job in one battle after another. I mean, she was in more of the movie than Teyana Taylor. Teyana Taylor. I'm glad the girl is winning. She is good. But Regina hall did an outstanding performance and maybe Regina just needs A new team. Regina, baby, call us if you want to talk through it, but you did a good job. Don't let anybody tell you different. You killed it on that screen. Teyana, we see you, girl. You did it too. But there's room for all of us.

[A]

Yes, for all of us to win. Not all of us to win Oscars, but all of us to be here.

[D]

Okay, I'm done with you. You know what? We gonna end it right there, folks. Thank you for listening. Please remember to subscribe to MSNow Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other shows without ads. Cause we are very good without the ads.

[A]

Correct. And if you haven't yet, please take a moment rate review the show. Your reviews help other people discover the podcast so they can start to clock it too.

[D]

We need the reviews.

[A]

Yes. Only nice reviews though. If you have bad reviews, give it to somebody.

[D]

Give it to yourself. Clock that clock. It is produced by Franny Kelly. Our associate producer is Iggy Monda. Additional production support from Brittany Ruff, Adrianna Thomas, Elijah Gibbs Jones, Malcolm Thomas and Colette Holcomb.

[A]

Our director is Renee Ambro and Lou Visconti. Emily Gaines and Sammy Savona are our control room operators. Our stage manager is Joy Barrosa. Our lighting director is Gina Santillo. And our camera operators are Daniel Cruz and Bernard Sweetman.

[D]

Mark Schmidt is our audio assistant. Daniel Tolbert is our prompter operator and Molly Burns is our graphic operator. Our tech managers are Steven Tolude and Nicole Tolan.

[A]

Our audio engineers are Greg Devins II Hazik, Ben Ahmed Fared and Bob Mallory.

[D]

Katie Lau is the senior manager of audio production. Aisha Turner is the executive producer of Ms. Now Audio. And Madelyn Herringer is senior vice president in charge of audio, digital and long form. Our theme music is by Jesse McGinty and we're your hosts, Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels. See you next week. That's the first time we got it right. Yes, You do it all. So why not get all the electrolytes Hydrate better than water with new Gatorade lower sugar now with no artificial flavors, sweeteners or colors. And 75% less sugar than regular Gatorade. New to the fridge. All the Gatorades electrolytes you love. Gatorade lowers sugar. Is it in you? Now available nationwide.