Eugene Is a Space Nerd, Symone Says Fill Up Your Tank ASAP, and We’re All Nostalgic for the ‘90s

Summary

Podcast Summary: Clock It with Symone & Eugene

Episode: "Eugene Is a Space Nerd, Symone Says Fill Up Your Tank ASAP, and We’re All Nostalgic for the ‘90s"

Hosts: Symone Sanders Townsend & Eugene Daniels

Guest: Jeff Bennett (PBS NewsHour, author of Black Out Loud)

Date: April 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode blends the latest political turmoil, real-life economic anxieties, and deep nostalgia for 1990s Black television. Symone and Eugene deliver their signature blend of topical depth and airy camaraderie, starting with space news and gas prices, diving into the politics of the Iran war and immigration, before welcoming Jeff Bennett to talk about the cultural impact of Black sitcoms in the ‘90s—and what’s changed (and what hasn’t) since. The episode is filled with humor, quotable moments, and thoughtful reflections on how culture and politics intersect.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Current Events: Space, Gas Prices, and Political Chaos

• The Iran War and its Fallout

  • Context: Sixth week of the war in Iran; headlines dominated by Trump’s handling and Netanyahu’s influence.
  • New York Times scoop reveals behind-the-scenes of Trump being influenced by Netanyahu, featuring quotes from Marco Rubio and other top officials.
  • Symone (07:14): “The CIA director used one word to describe the Israeli Prime Minister's regime change scenarios: Farsakal. At that point, Mr. Rubio cut in, quote, in other words is bullshit. He said.”
  • Discussion about the lack of clear rationale for war and the direct impact on American lives (gas prices, military families).

• Astronauts Go Further Than Ever

  • Artemis II mission: Four astronauts, including Victor Glover (first Black man on a lunar mission), circle the Moon.
  • Eugene (01:22): “...four astronauts traveled further away from Earth than anyone ever. Okay. It's very exciting.”
  • Symone (04:21): Quoting Victor Glover: “Young brown boys and girls can look at me and go, hey, he looks like me. And he's doing what? And that's great. But I also hope we are pushing the other direction... that this is just... human history.”
  • Reflection on how extraordinary achievements can inspire hope in dark times.

• Gas Prices Skyrocket

  • Prices projected to reach $10/gallon, affecting every aspect of the economy.
  • Eugene (10:13): “It was 6.19. Now I gotta put the gas that... my car has to be 91 or above...”
  • Tips for listeners: “Fill up every time you can. Every time you go a little quarter gallon down, go fill up your quarter gallon.” (10:58)
  • Connection between geopolitics, war, and the price at the pump articulated for listeners.

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2. Immigration, ICE, and Political Promises

• Immigration Enforcement Under the Trump Administration
  • High-profile case: newlywed woman detained on base at Fort Polk, despite being married to a military servicemember. (15:24)
  • Discussion of broken promises by Mark Wayne Mullen, new DHS Secretary, regarding warrants and sanctuary cities.
  • Symone (19:28): “Mark Wayne Mullen made them feel a little bit safer... But I don't read that interview with Bret Baron.”
  • Hosts stress that personnel changes at DHS won’t alter the administration’s hardline approach to immigration.

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3. Media and Disinformation: The War Coverage

• Threats to Journalism and Free Speech
  • Trump threatens to jail journalists for coverage regarding a missing airman in Iran.
  • Symone (13:35): “A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again. That is the President of the United States saying... genocide.”
  • Eugene (14:51): "We can never allow the extraordinary to become ordinary... it is extraordinary for the President... to say we're gonna ask the media organizations to tell us to give up their sources and if... not... we are going to jail them."

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4. A Dose of Culture: Black Comedy, Nostalgia, and TV's Power

[Guest Jeff Bennett joins at 22:28]

• Why Write About 90s Black Comedy?

  • Jeff wanted to explain the explosion of Black sitcoms in the 1990s and their wider cultural impact.
  • Jeff (23:13): “I started with a focus on the 90s... so many of these comedians, whether it's Richard Pryor or Moms Mabley or Dave Chappelle, they are in some way responding to the minstrel era.”

• The 90s Sitcom Boom: A Cultural Phenomenon

  • Rise tied to business decisions at Fox, desire for young, ‘urban’ audiences.
  • Black audiences always overrepresented in TV viewership.
  • Shows like Living Single, Martin, and A Different World changed representation and created a cultural monoculture.
  • Jeff (26:29): “Fox was desperate. That’s right. It was a business decision like anything else.”

• Representation, Inspiration, and the “Maxine Shaw Effect”

  • Living Single as template for Friends; pushback on strong, dark-skinned Black female characters (Maxine Shaw).
  • Jeff (33:07): “There is now an entire lane of academic research that looks at the Maxine Shaw effect... Ayanna Presley, Stacey Abrams, Kamala Harris... inspired to go into high powered professions because they were able to play out in their mind's eye… that would be like by watching her character.”

• Shared Culture and Monoculture—What We’ve Lost

  • 90s Black shows created common points of reference and real world impact (e.g. HBCU applications post-A Different World).
  • Today's TV landscape is fragmented; we’ve lost those shared spaces.
  • Jeff (38:57): “We don’t have as many shared spaces anymore. You can literally, on social media, there’s buttons where you can choose to hide all content like this. So we are actively self-selecting and putting ourselves into various silos and projections of division.”

• How TV Changes Society

  • Shows like Will & Grace, Ellen, and 90s Black sitcoms softened cultural distance, humanized marginalized groups, even paved the way for future societal shifts.
  • Jeff (43:02): “You would not have a Secretary Colin Powell. You would not have a President Barack Obama. Certainly not as quickly had it not been for those shows…”

• Memorable Clip: The “Baby, Please” Wedding Scene

  • (43:25–45:21): Eugene and Jeff relive the iconic A Different World wedding episode—sharing its cultural impact, the improvisation behind the scene, and how these moments stick across generations.

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5. Side Chat: Finding Whimsy and Recommending Comfort TV

[Side Chat segment begins at 50:35]

• Eugene and Symone decompress with reflections on finding daily joy (“whimsy”) amid the chaos.
• TV recs: Netflix documentary Dinosaurs with Morgan Freeman (“It’s humbling,” says Eugene, 52:29).
• Homemade crafts, family bonds, and embracing the small joys that sustain us.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Symone on the Cosmic Perspective (03:09): “The thing that's so interesting about space is it doesn't know. It knows no boundaries. Right?”
• Eugene on Resilience Amid Chaos (05:20): “It's a reminder that even though crazy things are happening in the world, extraordinary things are still possible. In the midst of all the chaos, four people are going to the moon.”
• Jeff on Representation (33:07): “There is now an entire lane of academic research that looks at the Maxine Shaw effect…”
• Symone on Generational Nostalgia (46:40): “I can meet a black person from Milwaukee, Wisconsin... from Miami, Florida... and I feel like we have all had a similar experience. Like, there's just some things that, like your grandma told you. You either in or you out. Why you letting the air out? Why you letting that air in my house?”
• Eugene on Hope (48:22): “It is a reminder that even in the midst of chaos, terrible things happening. Great, extraordinary, genius things can be made if people just put their mind to it.”

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Important Timestamps

• 00:20–05:50: Space news & Artemis II mission (Eugene’s “space nerd” story, representation in space)
• 05:50–12:00: Iran war politics, media coverage, and gas prices
• 12:32–19:44: Trump’s hostility toward the press, escalating war rhetoric, ICE & immigration policy
• 22:28–48:35: Main culture segment with Jeff Bennett; evolution of Black sitcoms, cultural impact, TV nostalgia
• 50:35–End: Side Chat—self-care, advice to find whimsy, recommendations for comfort TV

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Conclusion

This episode anchors listeners in the chaos of the present—political drama, economic distress, and relentless news cycles—but ultimately circles back to hope, resilience, and the connective tissue of Black culture in America. The conversation with Jeff Bennett is a love letter to the ‘90s, serving as both celebration and a call to rediscover what unifies us, both onscreen and off.

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Recommended for: Anyone craving lively political insight, pop culture nostalgia, and real talk about the power of TV and representation—with plenty of off-the-cuff humor and warmth from Symone and Eugene.

Transcript

[Jeff Bennett]

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[Eugene Daniels]

She loves it hot, he loves it cold. However you sleep, the pod by eight sleep adapts to you. Personalized temperatures keep you in deep sleep longer, so you wake up refreshed. Learn [e-mail]. Greetings. Welcome to Clock It. We are in the sixth week of the war in Iran and the first full week of Todd Blanchard's run as acting attorney general until 2025. You know, Todd Blanche was Donald Trump's personal defense attorney.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

What about that? Other things happening this week include the gas prices stressing everybody out. The UK denying Kanye a visa because officials say his presence, quote, conducive to the public good.

[Eugene Daniels]

That's so crazy.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Correct. And the safe return of an airman who had to eject from an F15 over mountainous region of Iran.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes, we are going to come back to gas prices because I've actually been speaking to some market watchers who gave me some advice for our listeners.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Not good news.

[Eugene Daniels]

No, the news was very bad, very depressing. But you know, this is also the week that four astronauts traveled further away from Earth than anyone ever. Okay.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It's very exciting.

[Eugene Daniels]

It was very exciting. Now they didn't get out, but that's another we gonna get on Friday they're gonna splash down off the coast of San Diego. It's so exciting.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I love, I love space. So this is something you know a lot about. The Vice President of the United States is the head of the Space Council.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes. Fun fact.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So you were in meetings with Vice President Kamal Harris on this, Herb?

[Eugene Daniels]

All the members of the Space Council. The Space Council is this expansive membership, if you will, that has experts, people from NASA, people within the government, a couple people outside of the government. They meet quarterly actually. And then space is a foreign policy issue as well. So one of my last trips that I took with the Vice President, we went to Paris. We spent a week in Paris with Macron. Honey, it was crazy. United States had messed up, France was mad at us. So we had to spend a week in France to say sorry.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Oh, we're so sad for you.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes, yes.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So sad for you.

[Eugene Daniels]

So taxing but space was on the agenda. Some of the things we talked about. And so Victor Glover, who was the pilot of the Artemis ii, he's the first black man to circle the moon, but he was also the first black man on the International Space Station. And so when he was on the space station, the vice president at the time, actually we talked to the astronauts on the space station. So we wheeled in this big, like TV screen monitor thing, but like huge. And then she was standing in front of it looking at them. They were literally floating in space. I was like, oh, my God, gravity is not there. It was insane. I literally. I love it. Okay. I love it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The thing that's so interesting about space is it doesn't know. It knows no boundaries. Right?

[Eugene Daniels]

Clearly, child. Do you think we're alone?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

No, it's impossible. It's not just me. The people who actually know. Like, just the idea of all these galaxies that are out in the universe, it is impossible for us to be alone. Now, it may not be like little green men or women, but it might be like, you know, some microbes somewhere. And also, this is the thing that I love so much from. And this is Neil DeGrasse Tyson, who I love and I'm obsessed with. He says that if, let's say someone's 50 billion light years away, that's crazy. And they're looking at us, and it's an alien species that walks around. What they would see is the dinosaurs because of how light travels. And so what they would be seeing is not us. So that's why nobody come in here. Cause I'm like, what are these monsters sitting up at the middle? Dinosaurs.

[Eugene Daniels]

Isn't that crazy? Okay, where did he say this?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

He said on some podcasts. So there's Victor Glover. He's the first black man to go on a lunar mission. And one of the other people up there, Christina Koch, is the first woman to go on one.

[Eugene Daniels]

We love her.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

We love her.

[Eugene Daniels]

You know, she fixed the toilet.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Very cool.

[Eugene Daniels]

The toilet on Artemis 2 broke within. They were in the air for maybe 40 minutes.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The 5G works, but not the toilet.

[Eugene Daniels]

The 5G works. The toilet didn't work. It broke. Let a woman do it because she fixed the toilet. So what had to fix it. Shout out to Christina.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Listen to Glover talking about the history making moment they're in.

[Eugene Daniels]

Oh, yeah.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Young brown boys and girls can look at me and go, hey, he looks like me. And he's doing what? And that's great. I love that. But I also hope we are pushing the other direction that One day we don't have to talk about these first. That one day this is just. And I listen to this, that this is the human history. It's about human history. It's the story of humanity. Not black history, not women's history. But that it becomes human history. That's not the day we're in the easiest. Okay, but people on the Internet. I am. People on the Internet can't stop talking about this man. On the live stream last week, putting on lotion in space. We have no excuses to be Ashley.

[Eugene Daniels]

There is no excuse to be Ashley. As a matter of fact, where's the Lubrider? I used the lotion before we got started. I was like, Victor Glover would want me to be moisturized child. It is very, very important. The world is terrible right now. Like, we're gonna talk about Ebron later. There's ice updates. Like, everything seems so crazy. You know, I myself frankly had a little personal breakdown prior to doing this podcast. Look at it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Shake it on.

[Eugene Daniels]

Well, you know something, we gotta show up to work. You were coming, so it wasn't like I could reschedule. I thought about it, but I think so many people have been galvanized by this mission, Artemis 2, because it's a reminder that even though crazy things are happening in the world, terrible things are happening, extraordinary things are still possible. In the midst of all the chaos, four people are going to the moon. Well, they're circling the moon around the moon. Because Artemis 3 will be the mission where we actually go to the moon.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It's such a good reminder that we are as humans capable of terrible atrocities and also amazing possibility, which is what we're seeing here. And so it's a maybe we think about that instead of this next topic.

[Eugene Daniels]

Well, because Iran, it does remain the biggest news story. The President is playing this like we're leading up to the finale of the Apprentice. The mid season finale. The worst mid season finale where he's just like, I might bomb them, I might not. Stay tuned.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

8:00pm and also, maybe I'll do a war crime.

[Eugene Daniels]

Maybe I'll do a war crime. You know, this is a terrible Donald Trump impression, by the way. But I mean, the dramatization of it is on brand for him.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I think it's dramatization.

[Eugene Daniels]

Oh, God, did I dramaticization.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

We're gonna leave that in there, though.

[Eugene Daniels]

I have a.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It's a learning opportunity.

[Eugene Daniels]

I went to a good Catholic school too. So, you know.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Well, I went to public school.

[Eugene Daniels]

The nuns that are not pleased with that. The dramatization. Thank you get me together. The dramatization of it is, I think, intentional on his part, but it's also a major news story as we're talking about it today. It'll be a major news story when y' all listen to this on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Because as we're recording this, Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, the New York Times, they just dropped some new reporting about how Trump's war in Iran started. Get the paper, Eugene. Where the paper, baby? Oh, first of all, they got a book coming out. This is a good teaser for the book. I'm about to order it right now.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I've already pre ordered mine.

[Eugene Daniels]

Headline How Trump Took the US to war with Iran.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Eugene Netanyahu comes, he talks to Trump. There's information that met in the Situation Room, which is not usually where foreign leaders meet. But I thought the most interesting thing was the next day, also in the Situation Room, Mr. Trump joined the meeting. Mr. Ratcliffe briefed him on the assessment of what Netanyahu was telling them. The CIA director used one word to describe the Israeli Prime Minister's regime change scenarios. Farsakal. At that point, Mr. Rubio cut in, quote, in other words is bullshit. He said. The president turns to General Kaine. General, what do you think? General Kaine replied, sir, this is, in my experience, standard operating procedure for the Israelis. They oversell and their plans are not always well developed. They know they need us and that's where they're hard selling. Now, there are a lot of things that are interesting about this. We have said over and have heard and people have reported that Netanyahu pushed Donald Trump to make these decisions at some point. Marco Rubio said that then they had to backtrack.

[Eugene Daniels]

Israel attacked them. They hit us first and we waited for them to hit us.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

We would suffer more casualties and more deaths.

[Eugene Daniels]

Mr. President, did Israel forced your hand to launch these strikes against Iran? Did they not pull the United States into this war?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

No, I might have forced their hand. You see, we were having negotiations with

[Eugene Daniels]

these lunatics and it was my opinion that they were gonna attack first. They were going to attack if we didn't do it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

But I think the thing that's when

[Eugene Daniels]

we said that somebody tried to say we were being anti Semitic. And I just continue to let you know these are just the facts.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The fact that they were able to get quotes and felt comfortable enough to put General Kaine, Marco Rubio, Ratcliffe, in quotation marks says that the highest levels, the President of the United States, the highest levels of the government are talking to Them talking to them.

[Eugene Daniels]

It's actually crazy work. It's absolutely crazy work. Read the reporting if you haven't read it. But to me, Eugene, what this does, it just crystallizes. Frankly, what we all know to be true is that the President took us to war for no real reason. We do not have to be in this war. Gas.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

No reporting that it was imminent.

[Eugene Daniels]

No report any imminent. Did not show up in the document.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I can't see that.

[Eugene Daniels]

Okay? Gas prices are up for no damn reason. Gas prices at home are getting dramatic. Okay? Dramatic. I said earlier, I've been talking to market watchers and analysts about how much gas is up. And I also have my own personal experience at the pump. Eugene. Now, y' all know Eugene does not drive.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I don't. Cause I'm bad at it. It's not that I'm bougie. It's that I'm actually not a good driver. I think it's boring.

[Eugene Daniels]

Okay.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I don't.

[Eugene Daniels]

That is so first world. I cannot even describe. I think driving is boring. Okay, well, to the people out there that don't have the ability to choose not to drive.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The way my adhd, I get on a scooter.

[Eugene Daniels]

He's taking a scooter or a black car.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Not always a black car. She's the black car.

[Eugene Daniels]

But I drive my car. That being said, you don't understand what the gas is at the.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I know, it's terrible.

[Eugene Daniels]

Gas is terrible. I went and got gas this past Saturday.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

How much was it?

[Eugene Daniels]

It was 619. Now I gotta put the gas that. You know, the gas has these little numbers on it. The gas in my car has to be 91 or above. So I can't put the 89 in there, even though I wanted to. The 89 was 900. It was a little cheaper. But if I am concerned about the gas prices, I can only imagine how folks all across this country are feeling like the numbers are insane and rising. Every single day, it's rising. Now, what the people I'm talking to are telling me is that gas could go all the way up to $10 a gallon in the next two months. Like, that's crazy. And so what the experts have said. Cause, you know, I'm calling people and asking them. What the experts have said is the way where you can pay the least amount possible is just fill up every time you can.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Every time you go a little bit

[Eugene Daniels]

of quarter gallon, you go a little quarter gallon down. Go fill up your quarter gallon. Because, baby, if you wait to fill up half a tank. If you're waiting to fill up a whole tank, it is going to be disastrous. Matter of fact, if you are listening to this podcast in your car and you drive past the gas station, stop, stop and get you some gas while you can.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Get it right now.

[Eugene Daniels]

Get it right now, because the gas is going up. And if gas is up, that means fertilizer is up, jet fuel is up, diesel is up. That means it's gonna cost more to get the goods. Amazon, it costs more to get the food out the ground because the fertilizer's up. And shipping it is up. It's all up.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

As we've said over and over on this podcast, the reason gas is up. Trump and Netanyahu started bombing Iran without a plan. Maggie Haberman and John the Swan have let us know that now 20% of the world's oil is struggling as it tries to get through the Strait of Hormuz out into the market, which means there's less oil for everyone because, well, you guys probably understand this. The President doesn't seem to get it that the price goes up because we live in a global oil market. Less oil in one place impacts the whole planet. And how everybody's gas and oil costs.

[Eugene Daniels]

It's such a good point. The gas prices, the oil prices, it is definitely a factor in the unpopularity of the war. There's a recent survey, Eugene, from the Pew center, and it has 6 in 10Americans disapproving. Okay, but that didn't stop Donald Trump from giving a speech on Monday to, I don't know, ostensibly tell the public what happened with the missing airman who was behind enemy lines for, according to the president, almost 48 hours. He gave this whole. I mean, literally the entire press conference could have been a background call given by the staff.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It probably should have been.

[Eugene Daniels]

I didn't understand what was going on from the White House press briefing room. I didn't.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And what's crazy was after he said the war has gone great, he threatened the media for reporting that there was a missing airman in the first place. Listen to this.

[Eugene Daniels]

They didn't know there was somebody missing

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

until this leaker gave the information. So whoever it was, we think we'll be able to find it out, because we're going to go to the media company that released it and we're going to say, national security. Give it up or go to jail. And we know who. And you know who we're talking about the President of the United States saying he's going to jail. Reporters for doing our damn jobs. I don't know who he's talking about because multiple outlets reported on the Air Force colonel who had to be rescued after Iran shot his plane out of the sky. More importantly, Iranian state media had videos of the wreckage and U.S. planes searching first. And Simone, I feel like the thing we are talking about a lot, but I think the world and the coverage around this is not clear enough. At 8:06am on Tuesday, April 7, President

[Eugene Daniels]

Trump posted as we are recording, quote,

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

a whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again. That is the President of the United States saying. Because when you say a whole civilization, that is a genocidal. That is genocide.

[Eugene Daniels]

It is genocide.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It is a whole getting rid of a whole civilization.

[Eugene Daniels]

I'm going to kill the people of Iran. He is not saying I'm going to take out the leadership. He is not saying we are going to engage in regular war activity. He is saying, I'm going to wipe these people off the map. Then he's putting an 8pm Eastern Time deadline on it. But that is the dramatization that I was talking about. He thinks this is an episode of the Apprentice. To be very clear, the thing about the threatening of the media organizations and the journalists, we can never allow the extraordinary to become ordinary. And it is extraordinary for the President of the United States to stand at the podium in the White House press briefing room and say, we're gonna ask the media organizations to tell us to give up their sources and if they do not give up the sources, we are going to jail them. There was an episode of Madam Secretary about this. Okay, take it all the way back. Cbs, look it up. But to be very, very clear, the misinformation we often talk about it, the disinformation was happening online, is running rampant with this. You would have. There are people out there, I think some of them are bots, okay? But there are people out there on social media that believe what the President said, that the journalists who wrote these stories put the service men and women in danger. And that is not true. You know what put them in danger? The President getting us into a fucking war.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And there we go.

[Eugene Daniels]

I think we have to move on

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

before we get fired.

[Eugene Daniels]

You know, I just. Okay. I don't want to forget to talk about something that I think the administration wants us to forget about. Eugene. Ice. Ice, ice, okay? It continues to separate people from their families. ICE is still working right now.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

A newlywed woman who went up to her husband's post, this is Fort Polk in Louisiana, to get her military ID was detained Last week. She's been in the US since she was a toddler. She got a deportation order when she was 20. Two months owed. Applied for DACA in 2020 when Trump decided to stop accepting applications. One of the things that's so disturbing is that marrying a US Service member, marrying someone who sacrificed and continues to sacrifice their life for the good of the country used to be a way to protect you from a lot of the bad things that can happen when it comes to deportation. As a kid growing up on posts all across the south, we had all women from all over the world who were marri to men who were military folks. And that I never thought about. They never thought about the idea that they would be deported, that they would be snatched from their husbands who are military servicemen.

[Eugene Daniels]

I am unsettled by this, Eugene. I was looking. The woman wasn't a criminal, was she? She hadn't committed any heinous crimes. Did she rob anyone? Did she murder anyone? Okay. I thought that the administration told us that they were focusing on the worst of the worst. So why was this woman prior for deportation?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It's almost like they lied.

[Eugene Daniels]

It's almost like they were not telling us the truth. And now we even have the new Secretary of Homeland Security, Mark Wayne Mullen. He was actually sworn in on March 24. Now, during his Senate confirmation, Eugene, he was specifically asked some very key questions and he made some promises. He would not be the first person in this administration to say one thing in front of the Senate or in the government. Okay. And do something else later. Well, clock it. Okay. But this is what he said first. He said ICE officers won't go into homes or businesses without a judicial warrant anymore. Okay. That means that they're not going to go without a judge's sign off that there's cause to arrest a person. Right. Unless they're chasing somebody.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Sure. Yeah. And two, he said he will never work against the mayors and law enforcement of sanctuary cities. On Monday, CNN had reporting that efforts to lease or buy warehouses and turn them into detention centers on pause that Mullen staff is reviewing those projects. However, on Monday evening, Mark Wayne Mullen, DHS Secretary, went on Fox News and told Bret Baer something completely different about sanctuary cities.

[Eugene Daniels]

Seriously, if they're a sanctuary city and

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

they're receiving international flights and we're asking

[Jeff Bennett]

them to partner with us at the

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

airport, but once they walk out of the airport, they're not going to enforce immigration policy.

[Jeff Bennett]

Maybe we need to have a really hard look at that because we need to focus on cities that want to work with us.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So you're saying that big cities, cities

[Eugene Daniels]

that are sanctuary cities that have a

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

big airport, they might lose their customs.

[Eugene Daniels]

I just. The sanctuary. I feel like Nicole Wallace, she likes to cuss on her podcast. Now I feel like I'm about to cuss. The sanctuary cities argument is some bullshit because in every city across this country, the law enforcement officers will tell you that they do cooperate. They are suggesting that the local law enforcement are not cooperating with the feds. And that's not true. Now, what they aren't doing is like combing through people's random social media, asking people to show their papers when they pull them over at a stop sign or a tail light. No, they're not racially profiling. But this is what he said.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Stated priority is deporting, quote, the most egregious felons and criminals. But then he also makes clear in that same Bret Berry interview, Simone, that the net is wider than that. Anyone who has missed court dates, had an asylum claim denied, or is in the country illegal is subject to removal. Quote, if you're in this country illegally, you have a duty to sub.

[Eugene Daniels]

That's everybody now.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Every damn body.

[Eugene Daniels]

Before we go off of this, you told me earlier this, I don't know when you told me a couple days ago, was it yesterday that you have been, that you have some reporting from what Democrats have been saying? What do these Democrats say about Mark Wayne Mullen?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Now, I think after this interview, I'm gonna go back to them because I think they might have some questions.

[Eugene Daniels]

But what did they say?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

What they said originally was that Mark Wayne Mullen made them feel a little bit safer, more confident, because at the end of the day, they felt he was born going to be better than Kristi Noem because he said the judicial warrants. But I don't read that interview with Bret Baron.

[Eugene Daniels]

Democrats should not relax. Mark Wayne Mullen works for Donald Trump. Okay, so all of these folks that are convincing themselves and Stephen Miller and Steven, come on, clock that. So all of these folks, Democrats, Republicans, Independents or otherwise, that are convincing themselves that, oh, somebody else, whether it's Mark Wayne Mullen at dhs, whether it's whoever gets to be the next attorney general since Pam Bondi is out, you can change the players all you want. The game is still the same, the coach is still the same. It's still the same team. Like, we gotta get with it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Because at the end of the day, all the decisions are being made from the White House. They're not being made in these agencies. Like they usually would be.

[Eugene Daniels]

I'm sorry. I'm very fired up about this, but I just people cannot believe that because you're gonna swap some people out, then like all of a sudden this person is gonna make it better. You know what? This stresses me out. Eugene, can we switch to talk about some culture? Yes. We gotta talk about some culture.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yes.

[Eugene Daniels]

I need a break. I need a break. I need a break. When we come back, folks, we will have very excited. Eugene, book this person we love. We love Jeff, the author of Black Out Loud, the revolutionary history of black comedy from vaudeville to 90s sitcoms. Here with us, Jeff Bennett is joining the Group Chat. We'll be right.

[Jeff Bennett]

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[Eugene Daniels]

You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yeah.

[Eugene Daniels]

So do we here at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love or the trends everyone's obsessing over

[Jeff Bennett]

or shoes that make you feel like, well, you.

[Eugene Daniels]

So go ahead, show off a little. Find shoes that get you at prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you. She loves it hot, he loves it cool. The Pod by eight Sleep is a smart mattress cover that fits on your bed and keeps each side at the perfect temperature all night long. By staying comfortably warm or cool, the Pod helps you sleep deeper and wake up feeling more rested every morning. You get daily health insights and a sleep fitness score. However you sleep, the pod by Eight Sleep adapts to you. Try [e-mail].

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Welcome back. And welcome Jeff Bennett, formerly NBC's White House correspondent, NPR's D.C. reporter. Now he co hosts PBS NewsHour. Y' all seen him in his spare time for some reason?

[Eugene Daniels]

What spare time?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You got created spare time and then wrote a book about comedy, the 90s and how society talks to itself about things it's not ready to face directly.

[Eugene Daniels]

It's very timely.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

This is called the Group Chat. So we appreciate you coming to the Group Chat.

[Eugene Daniels]

Thank you for having Me.

[Jeff Bennett]

It's so great to see you.

[Eugene Daniels]

Can I just read from the jacket of this. First of all, the COVID of this book is absolutely amazing. The jacket of the book, y'.

[Jeff Bennett]

All.

[Eugene Daniels]

Oh, let me not f up the jacket. Black comedians have long played a pivotal role in shaping the American sense of humor. We go from the minstrel shows to,

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

like, the 90s, and then to Issa Rae and.

[Jeff Bennett]

But I got to the minstrel shows in a roundabout way. I started with a focus on the 90s, and the lingering question was, how was it when I was growing up, you saw all of these different sitcoms, all of these, like, different visions and variations of black light on the air at the same time? So that was sort of my research project in putting this book together. And I realized I could not tell the story of the 90s responsibly without going all the way back to the beginning and the beginning of black performers, black comedic performance. Because every generation builds on the previous generation. And in many ways, you have so many of these comedians, whether it's Richard Pryor or Moms Mabley or Dave Chappelle, they are in some way responding to the minstrel era.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And.

[Jeff Bennett]

And if you go back and watch some of that stuff now, I mean, it's degrading. It is dehumanizing. It was also big business. It was mass entertainment at the time. And it's this crazy contradiction because you have these comedians who were forced to parody black life. And so that is the beginning of black comedic performance in this country. And that's where the book starts.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Now, Jeff. When people think about Jeff Bennet. Cause they do think about you. You're very famous. When they think about you, they do not think comedy. They think politics. They think sitting outside of the White House doing hits for NBC.

[Eugene Daniels]

Not that he put you in a

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

box in the old days, but this is something people that know, you know, you're funny, but, like, talk about why you wanted to write this book and not a political book.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah. How did you come to do this?

[Jeff Bennett]

Because it was the book that I'd always wanted to read that had not been written. One, two. Even though I've covered national politics, I've also covered the culture and I think cultural coverage, especially these days, and is more. There you go.

[Eugene Daniels]

It's the whole thing.

[Jeff Bennett]

It's the whole thing, right? There is a durability and an endurance to our culture that does not exist in our politics. And again, I had this question. How did all of these shows exist? It could not have been a coincidence. We work in television, we know enough to know enough about. You could not have a show like Fresh Prince in Living Color, Living Single, Martin. Martin Arsenio on in Late Night, all simultaneously. So how did that happen?

[Eugene Daniels]

How did it happen?

[Jeff Bennett]

Well, Fox was desperate. That's right. It was a business decision like anything else.

[Eugene Daniels]

Oh, because we make money. We, as in black people.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Correct.

[Jeff Bennett]

Black folks have always been overrepresented in terms of TV viewers. And at the advent of Fox Broadcasting Network. And we should explain for folks back then, Fox Broadcasting Network and Fox News, those are two separate things. There are generations of especially younger people who will hear me say Fox and think Fox News. That's not what this was. Barry Diller launched a fourth broadcast TV network. And he told me that when he looked across the landscape of PrimeTime Entertainment, what ABC, CBS and NBC were putting on the air was basically indistinguishable. And he knew that to launch a new network, it had to be different. It had to be bold. It had to skew young, urban. We know what urban means. Yeah. And so the first pilot that got greenlit was for a show called not the Cosby show. Because word had gone out in Hollywood that Barry Diller wanted stuff that was not like what's on the other networks. So if you're an enterprising producer, I'm gonna make it really easy for a network exec to greenlight my show. And I'm gonna call my pilot not the Cosby Show. That show becomes Married With Children. So when Fox finds success, which is

[Eugene Daniels]

definitely not the Cosby show, not at all.

[Jeff Bennett]

So they find success with Married With Children, Simpsons Cops. And that's what opens the door to a Keenan Ivory Wayans with a living color.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yeah. You write that at that time, black and white audiences are basically watching the same shows, but at some point, black folks finally had options. And I think that. And you hit on this in your very first answer. But the idea that we had options to see different aspects of black life.

[Jeff Bennett]

Right.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And not just like a doctor married to a lawyer with all their fun kids.

[Jeff Bennett]

Right.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

But also like Will Smith acting crazy on Fresh Prince before with a rich auntie slapping people with a rich uncle and a rich auntie.

[Jeff Bennett]

Yeah. And we should be clear, Black folks.

[Eugene Daniels]

I just wanna know. Eugene is using auntie as a slang.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I just think that's true.

[Eugene Daniels]

It is a derogatory term. Auntie is a derogatory term.

[Jeff Bennett]

Who. Embrace it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You need to embrace it. Your young auntie.

[Jeff Bennett]

I wouldn't tell her she needs to embrace.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

She needs.

[Eugene Daniels]

But it's Too late.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

She does embrace it. She is Lynn's auntie behavior.

[Eugene Daniels]

There were aunties on television. But to Eugene's point, I think the range was really interesting and important. And it feels like, I don't know, like, there's juxtaposing the 90s with, like, what's on TV right now is kind of like. It's like we had a heyday, and then the heyday went away and it felt like it's so hard to get things made. And now there's, like, bits and pieces. Like the life and times of Reggie Dinkins is on tv.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Abbott elementary.

[Eugene Daniels]

World is coming back in a different way on Netflix. Abbott Elementary. But there, it feels like that there were many more shows back in the day.

[Jeff Bennett]

Yeah. And we should say there had been Black Friday on TV well before the 90s, because some people have asked me, why didn't you write about good times or 227 good times? But what's specific about the 90s is that you had black showrunners, you had black producers who were intentional about being specific and authentic in their storytelling. And that did not exist before that era. And that's how you get the genius of a Martin Lawrence. That's how you get the genius again of, like, a Keenan Ivory Wayans. And so we're seeing some of that now, like Quinta Brunson with Abbott elementary, which you mentioned. But even though there. There's more volume now, there's more content, there's more stuff to watch, the impact isn't there? Because everybody's in their own silos. There is no monoculture.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

There's too much.

[Jeff Bennett]

There's too much.

[Eugene Daniels]

I feel like the last, like, quote, unquote black show that we watched together was Scandal.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Insecure.

[Jeff Bennett]

I was gonna say insecure.

[Eugene Daniels]

Insecure. We watched Insecure together as a culture, if you will. Yeah.

[Jeff Bennett]

And you could talk about it on Twitter in real time. Like, that was the thing.

[Eugene Daniels]

And they hit on real issues. I mean, your point? Like, the culture and politics is intimately intertwined, I would argue. But also, culture leads politics. And so they talked about real issues on these sitcoms in the 90s. I'm thinking about the different world episodes about apartheid or about hiv. Excuse me, Josie.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

What's it like? I mean, how do you feel every day?

[Eugene Daniels]

Some days fine, Other days not so fine. I take a lot of medicine.

[Jeff Bennett]

I don't.

[Eugene Daniels]

I don't understand. This is not a woman's disease. Tell that to the 16,000 women who have it with you.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

They use drugs and they do perverted things. AIDS is not a moral judgment.

[Jeff Bennett]

I mean, there's a whole Rodney King episode.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Come on now.

[Eugene Daniels]

In real time, really. Just dissecting what the people who were watching, frankly, that looked like the folks on the screen, what they were feeling and. And what they knew to be true, I just think.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And they felt like full characters.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah.

[Jeff Bennett]

Not characters of black people, which felt. And that was intentional. One of the great things about this book was I got to interview all of the people who I grew up just, like, watching and watching.

[Eugene Daniels]

Like, who did you talk to?

[Jeff Bennett]

Sinbad. I had chased Sinbad for years for an interview. He's doing well. I think he's about to go back out on tour, which is incredible. So folks should know Sinbad.

[Eugene Daniels]

He should get us some tickets.

[Jeff Bennett]

I will try.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Please do.

[Eugene Daniels]

Thank you.

[Jeff Bennett]

And, you know, he was reluctant to do interviews for a very long time. And then the original cast of A Different World started doing an HBCU tour, and he popped up remotely when the cast went to Morehouse. And so I said to myself, all right, well, if he's gonna zoom into Morehouse College, he'd probably talk to me. And he did. But he talked about the thing that you mentioned. He said that, you know, comedy has a way of lowering our defenses. And on his show, in particular, A Different World, they were intentional about trying to slip in kernels of truth, trying to slip in some, like, a social consciousness, but wrap it all in a joke. Because these shows had to be funny. They had to be engaging. They had to have people tuning in week after week. But on that show in particular, it was a show with heart.

[Eugene Daniels]

Shout out to Debbie. Al.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yeah, 100%. When I think about the 90s, I actually get pissed.

[Eugene Daniels]

How old were you? What do you know about the 90s?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

What are you. You younger than me? No. See, Bully. I think about Living Single.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And because when people talk about the 90s, the show that everyone brings up, a lot of people bring up, is Friends.

[Eugene Daniels]

Say it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You say it. Friends literally stole everything from Living. For those of you that have not watched Living Single, first of, pause this. Go watch all the seasons.

[Eugene Daniels]

Queen Latifah.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

But Queen Latifah. Khadijah.

[Jeff Bennett]

Khadijah. She's a journalist.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Like, they are friends and cousins, and they live together. There are two men and four women. Like, they start dating each other. Don't that sound damn familiar? Because they watched Living Single, and they were like, oh, let's do a friend.

[Jeff Bennett]

Is that true?

[Eugene Daniels]

Cause people will be like, oh, that's a lame.

[Jeff Bennett]

That is absolutely True. That's not just us saying that. That is people connected to both shows who told me that that Living Single was the blueprint for Friends. Absolutely. And what's so interesting, that is just a blueprint.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

They stole it.

[Jeff Bennett]

Oh. There are some plot lines that were lifted entirely from Living Single, but the woman who created that show, Yvette Lee Bowser, got her start as a writer in the writers room of A Different World, working alongside Debbie Allen and Queen Latifah and Kim Coles had development deals with Fox and the network kept giving them writers who didn't really understand them and who didn't get. And when they put Yvette with the two of them, that's how you got that show. And Erica Alexander's role, she told me there was pushback from the network. They said you don't necessarily need to have this Maxine Shaw character. Why don't you write her out?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Oh, because she's a black woman who's powerful lawyer.

[Eugene Daniels]

A black lawyer. Well, let's talk about that Maxine Shaw,

[Jeff Bennett]

dark skinned with braids on TV as a high powered attorney. That had never existed on television before. There is now an entire lane of academic research that looks at the Maxine Shaw effect.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

That's amazing.

[Jeff Bennett]

And it speaks to the number of women, black women in particular, who were inspired to go into high powered professions because they were able to play out in their mind's eye what that would be like by watching her character. To include Ayanna Presley, to include Stacey Abrams, to include Kamala Harris, who told Erica Alexander that. Who told me. So I mean, you know, it's remarkable. It's remarkable really.

[Eugene Daniels]

We were talking about this concept of white famous earlier. Are you, are you familiar?

[Jeff Bennett]

So is it black famous or white? I've heard black famous. Both.

[Eugene Daniels]

Both. So there's black famous and white famous.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So what's the white famous is white

[Jeff Bennett]

folks who are only famous among white folks.

[Eugene Daniels]

Well, I guess white famous is mainstream. Black people who are. Yes, white famous is mainstream.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So like Mia Long and Morris Chestnut, some people would probably say are black famous.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes, but Morris Chestnut was just on Watson. Yeah, he had that and they got canceled. Yes, but. But I would argue for some people he was a little white famous maybe. But there a lot of the, like Living Single was black famous.

[Jeff Bennett]

But here was. I'll say this, though, those shows were A Different World was number two for almost a decade behind the Cosby Show. So the Nielsen ratings were Cosby Show, A Different World and Cheers. And it was like that for forever and ever.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Amen but when people talk about the best shows, they talk about Cheers. They do not talk about the motherfuckers. But go ahead.

[Jeff Bennett]

Well, cause, yeah, but my point is

[Eugene Daniels]

these shows, well, they're not talking about the top.

[Jeff Bennett]

These shows were black shows with black cast and black producers, but they also enjoyed broad appeal. And one of the takeaways in the book is that, that because they were so specific, because they were so authentic in the stories that they were telling, there was a universality in that. And it's important because for us watching those shows, it was a mirror, right? You were seeing yourself reflected. And for everybody else, it was a window into a life, into an experience or a joke that they might not have otherwise encountered.

[Eugene Daniels]

So a different world was white famous.

[Jeff Bennett]

A different world was absolutely white famous.

[Eugene Daniels]

A different world was white famous. And you think about Alisa Bonet, you think like, these are global. Think about all the people that would come on a different hell.

[Jeff Bennett]

Tupac, Everybody was on that show.

[Eugene Daniels]

Everybody was like, they came on that. They came on the Cosby.

[Jeff Bennett]

And you mentioned Debbie Allen. Debbie Allen saved that show.

[Eugene Daniels]

Well, she did.

[Jeff Bennett]

When that show was launched, Bill Cosby, as it was told to me, wasn't sure it was going to be a hit. It was basically a spinoff. It was a star vehicle for Lisa Bonet, because at the time, Lisa Bonet had dated, was dating Lenny Kravitz. She had done this movie called Angel Heart that was risque. And Bill Cosby had a lot of issues with it. And so she was sort of banished, but banished with this show.

[Eugene Daniels]

The show. If you gonna get banished, please.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The whole show. Yeah.

[Eugene Daniels]

Give me a show, give me a damn.

[Jeff Bennett]

But the Cosby show taped in New York, he had this show tape in la so that if it wasn't a success, there was physical distance between his show and that show. And he basically said his decision making

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

process is not good.

[Jeff Bennett]

Yeah. After the first season, Phylicia Rashad comes to him and says, I've been on that set. That show is not working. And the way you're going to fix it is to have my sister come in and overhaul it. And that's exactly what happened.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Jeff Bennett]

And she went in there and was so specific, down to the point of looking at the pit. Remember, like the gatherings? And she'd be like, this is an hbcu. Why is there no hot sauce on these tables?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Hello.

[Eugene Daniels]

Clock it small. Clock it Debbie Allen.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yeah.

[Jeff Bennett]

Clock the lack of hot sauce on the tables. But I mean, like, details that small and that's how you got the revamped different world that is so culturally resonant.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You talk about Maxine Shaw effect, but also you write about how a different world literally changed HBCU enrollment numbers.

[Jeff Bennett]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It just feels like there are no shows nowadays. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's people that watch Scandal and wanna be a fixer in D.C. but it doesn't feel like there are shows that do that, that actually, like, go way beyond the idea of clothing or like the way people talk. Talk a little bit about the importance of having a show on television that has people that look like us on it. It changes the amount of people who believe they can go to college.

[Jeff Bennett]

It's incredible.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It's actually insane.

[Jeff Bennett]

My brother had gone to Morehouse. He's five years older. And I knew I was gonna end up going to Morehouse. I wouldn't say that out loud at the time, but I had a sense of it. But for me to be able to watch, you know, Darrell Bell, who played Ron Johnson, I sort of saw kinship with that character.

[Eugene Daniels]

It was now you low key look like Darrell Bell, man.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Shout out.

[Jeff Bennett]

Shout out to Darrell Bell. He was the first actor who talked to me. Cause I literally. I was like dming people being like, I have this idea for a book, but I can't do it unless you give me an interview. And he was the first person to give me time.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

We love that.

[Jeff Bennett]

Absolutely.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So.

[Jeff Bennett]

But yeah, no, there are no real shows like that that do that anymore. I mean, maybe the Pit, I guess for people who are interested in.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

That's not for black people. Not for black folks show.

[Jeff Bennett]

Not specifically for black folk.

[Eugene Daniels]

I can't even get the word out. It's not about black people, but black people do watch.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

But are black people in it? I watched the Pit and I don't think there's one black.

[Eugene Daniels]

What about the Shy? The Shy is a show like that, right? Like lean away from the shy.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

But does the shy make. It's a great show. But does the changing the way people see themselves.

[Eugene Daniels]

Maybe in Chicago.

[Jeff Bennett]

But it's also because people these days, there's a markedly different experience. If you're just watching something on your phone scrolling as opposed to back in the day, sitting down with your family in front of the TV in the living room. And if you got up to change the channel, it was going to have to be a conversation. And so you sit there and you watch a show and you. And you might not have a conversation about it, but it syncs and it lands with you. And to have tens of millions of families doing that exact same thing at roughly the same time, that's where you get the cultural resonance and that's where you get to show, like, a different world being so important and actually driving up the numbers of people who are applying to HBCUs. We don't have those experiences today. There's no more monoculture. We don't have the same shared reference points. People are very much in their silos. And, you know, that is one of the things, I think, that has led to this moment where there's like a lack of cultural cohesion. It's the stuff that we're watching, it's how we consume entertainment, how we consume media. All of that has changed dramatically.

[Eugene Daniels]

We don't have as many shared spaces anymore. You can literally, on social media, there's buttons where you can choose to hide all content like this. So we are actively self selecting and putting ourselves into various silos and projections of division.

[Jeff Bennett]

Because I don't think. And there's a disconnect between. And you all know this, there's a disconnect between the way our politics is lived and the way it's perceived and projected. I will never forget covering the first Trump impeachment, waiting in the basement of the Capitol for these lawmakers to come out from behind closed doors and a Democrat and Republican, Republican coming out all buddy, buddy, joking, having a good time. One of them walked to the camera position for Fox News and talked about Democrats in a way now we would expect, right? Hit is over, goes back, buddy, buddy walks back into the room. That happens all the time on Capitol Hill where Democrats and Republicans are friendly, but they project as if they're not. They're not. Because there are vested interests in having us at each other's necks.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

One of the. I'm gay, so Will and Grace, I don't know if you guys know what in the world.

[Eugene Daniels]

Not I'm gay. The nail polish gave it away. Breaking news.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

But I think about, like, Will and Grace and Ellen as, like, seminal moments where people watch those shows and start to be like, you know, maybe these gays ain't that bad. And I feel like. And there's a line of study about that. I feel like these shows did the same thing for black people, right? Like it was about showing us multifaceted in different ways. Most of the of the people for many of the shows were striving for excellence, right? Like there weren't. It wasn't. Like, it wasn't insecure where Issa can't Get a job. Right. Like, it was like, well, keep a man. It was like over and over. You have Uncle Phil, who's a judge. You have Bill Cosby, who is a successful doctor. His wife's a lawyer. Like all of these who speak Spanish. Exactly. All of these black people.

[Jeff Bennett]

And even Martin. Martin was a successful dj.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Correct.

[Jeff Bennett]

And Gina was a marketing executive. People forget that.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Now, the other one didn't have. No. And Tommy never had no job. But that's. Everybody else had jobs. But, like, it shows black people in a completely different light. How does that impact the way that the country saw black people?

[Jeff Bennett]

Yeah. And it started with the Cosby Show, I think. And the point I make in this book is that because you had all of these shows on the air at the same time, no one show had to bear the burden of representing the entirety of the black experience, which is not a thing that can be done.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Right.

[Jeff Bennett]

Because the Cosby show, let's not forget, caught a lot of flack from some people about, oh, this is too aspirational. And this is. This is not a real depiction of. Of black life.

[Eugene Daniels]

Vanessa sneaks off to Baltimore. We just going to play.

[Jeff Bennett]

Huh?

[Eugene Daniels]

We just going to play it. Vanessa sneaks off to Baltimore to see the Wretched. You have taken us from levels of frenzy, panic, distress. And now that we know you're okay.

[Jeff Bennett]

She should have won an Emmy.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes, she should have won an Emmys. Look at Vanessa.

[Jeff Bennett]

Look at Vanessa. All that hair.

[Eugene Daniels]

Look.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Look at that monster.

[Eugene Daniels]

Strange, because we know that you have

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

been to Baltimore, Maryland, with the wretched.

[Eugene Daniels]

Have this big, big fun. Big. Isn't that what you had, Vanessa? Didn't you have big fun gales? You had donuts. Had donuts in Wilmington, Delaware, Honey, have you ever been to Wilmington for Donuts weekend? Not on the weekend.

[Jeff Bennett]

That's incredible.

[Eugene Daniels]

I play that because to your point, people said, oh, it's too aspirational. I mean, and I've never been to Baltimore to see the Wretched, but I've.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You've been told the hell off by your mama.

[Eugene Daniels]

My daddy's sitting there. Well, I gotta take it, because they done gathered me from doing something like that. That actually is real.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And.

[Jeff Bennett]

And you don't have to be black to have a. To see a moment like that.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

No. Cause my parents took their kids out, too.

[Jeff Bennett]

Absolutely. I mean, the other thing is that these shows, they soften the distance between people. And when you see stuff like that, first of all, the fact that Phylicia Rashad never won an Emmy in her role is criminal. It's criminal and it needs to be rectified.

[Eugene Daniels]

One could argue it's racist.

[Jeff Bennett]

Well, that's true.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

One. Maybe three would argue.

[Eugene Daniels]

Maybe three would argue.

[Jeff Bennett]

You would not have a Secretary Colin Powell. You would not have a President Barack Obama. Certainly not as quickly had it not been for those shows. In much the same way you would not have marriage equality as early as you did were it not for Ellen DeGeneres and Will and Grace in those kinds of shows.

[Eugene Daniels]

I just want to play one other clip. Yes, we are all similar in very different ways. We're dealing with similar things. The scene that comes to mind for me is Dwayne at Whitley's wedding.

[Jeff Bennett]

Oh yeah.

[Eugene Daniels]

Oh my God. Whitley. It's Whitley's wedding day. She wakes up, you know, confused. Dwayne like, visit her late at night and then her mother tells her to like, put Dwayne behind her. Like, you about to marry Byron and you need to think about Byron and I dos are about to be pronounced. And then this scene happens. Play the clip. Go on, Reverend. Go on.

[Jeff Bennett]

I can't.

[Eugene Daniels]

Go on.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Tisha responds.

[Eugene Daniels]

Well, she means yes. Well, she's got to say yes.

[Jeff Bennett]

Diane Carroll,

[Eugene Daniels]

iconic. Diane Carroll, insane.

[Jeff Bennett]

Will you.

[Eugene Daniels]

Blessed are those who ask the questions.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Brother, I love you and if you'll have me.

[Eugene Daniels]

What the hell are you doing? I'm sorry, Byron.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I love her.

[Eugene Daniels]

Die. Yes. Die not. Olivia Foley asked me to witness your

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

lawfully wedded husband from this day forth

[Eugene Daniels]

to having a whole enricher for poorer. Baby, please, please. I do, I do. It was soothing. I can't. So good. Okay, the thing. This is so amazing.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

God, just die.

[Eugene Daniels]

You know, so I. Debbie, way back when, when I had a show at 4pm on Saturdays and Sundays, Debbie Allen shout out to you for watching Debbie Allen. Because we people still are like, I wish you never had your own show. And I'm like, y' all the reason why it's not in there anymore. Y' all asking me these damn questions. And no, I don't.

[Jeff Bennett]

Oh my goodness.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes, Correct.

[Jeff Bennett]

Oh wow.

[Eugene Daniels]

Debbie Allen did came to do the show.

[Jeff Bennett]

Uh huh.

[Eugene Daniels]

And she talked about this moment and Kadeem Hartson has since talked about it as well. But like they did this in one take and it was improv.

[Jeff Bennett]

Baby, please. Was improv.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes, very much so. And. And when the scene was over and they yelled cut, everybody was kind of looking like, did we. Was that okay? And Debbie Allen was like, that's good, we can move on. But it was, that's real tv. And it's. I mean, I just Think about that every time somebody gets married. Yeah, I really do. I'm like, you just waiting?

[Jeff Bennett]

You looking for a Kadim artisan?

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah, I don't really go to a lot of waiting, but every time I'm at one, I'm like, well, but it's the culture.

[Jeff Bennett]

You grew up in Oklahoma. Where'd you grow up?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The South? All over the South.

[Eugene Daniels]

I'm sorry, the Midwest. But you know what? Everyone thinks Omaha is Oklahoma, so I, you know, no shade, Jeff.

[Jeff Bennett]

My point is, we grew up in different parts of the. But we all have the shared experience of watching that and watching all of these shows and having sort of the same reference points. And if we were gonna go to a wedding and someone shouted, baby, baby, baby, please.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jeff Bennett]

We would know exactly what we're talking about these days. Will kids 20, 30 years from now be talking about, like, a Drewski clip? Probably not.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Hopefully not.

[Eugene Daniels]

Hopefully they're not.

[Jeff Bennett]

I don't think they'll find common cause around some of the stuff that exists on Waitrose.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

That's sad.

[Eugene Daniels]

That is devastating. I know we have to go, but, I mean, I'm gonna just throw this on the table for. We talk about that. There's, like, a lack of a shared culture, American culture. But I would just argue that I can meet a black person from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I can meet a black person from Miami, Florida. I can meet a black person from the back alley woods of Georgia, rural South Dakota. And I feel like we have all had a similar experience. Like, there's just some things that, like your grandma told you. You either in or you out. Why you letting the air out? Why you letting that air in my house? Like, that's ripping and running.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You ripping and running.

[Eugene Daniels]

Come on, now. The streetlights come on.

[Jeff Bennett]

Where you going?

[Eugene Daniels]

Home. There is just something. There is still shared culture.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

But this thing, everyone that you're talking about that would acknowledge that aspect of shared black American life are people who are probably our age or older. Because if you talk to someone who's 16, do they know that? Do they know that when the light's on, your ass better be at home?

[Eugene Daniels]

I'm gonna start telling myself. I'm gonna start telling my steps, you better quit ripping and running.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You can't quit. No, they teach your parents.

[Eugene Daniels]

You start using ripping and running jokes.

[Jeff Bennett]

Yeah, he knows all about ripping and running.

[Eugene Daniels]

Okay, all right.

[Jeff Bennett]

And letting all my good air out the house.

[Eugene Daniels]

Exactly.

[Jeff Bennett]

Knows all about it.

[Eugene Daniels]

Letting the pin goes out the refrigerator. That's my mama used to say, so I guess you're right. Maybe. Are we failing these children?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Y' all are. I ain't got no kids.

[Jeff Bennett]

They need to read the book.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Y' all are failing me. They do.

[Eugene Daniels]

They need to read the book. Do you have McDonald's? If that was money, I'm crying. Jeff. Thank you.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Thank you.

[Jeff Bennett]

Thank you both.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You know what?

[Eugene Daniels]

I'm trying to keep from crying in these moments. And this is just a really good reminder, as we were saying, that even in. Cause the 90s was crazy for black people.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Hello.

[Eugene Daniels]

They was locking people up, talk of depression, beating them down, getting beat down. Come on. Bill Clinton in the crime bill, Joe Biden in the crime bill. But Joe Biden would say, he ain't do that. Bill Clinton wrote it. That's another story. But the 90s was a crazy time. But so much creativity came out of

[Jeff Bennett]

the 90s across the board. 90s R&B, unmatched fashion. Carl Kanai, Iniche, cross colors. The list goes on tv. We talked about tv, movies, literature. I mean, just the black cultural creation in the 1990s was off the charts. And my next book might be about, like, how do we get back to that point? I don't know.

[Eugene Daniels]

Well, it is a reminder that even in the midst of chaos, terrible things happening. Great, extraordinary, genius things can be made if people just put their mind to it. So thank you for writing this book, Jeff.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Black Out Loud.

[Jeff Bennett]

Thank you for your support coming here.

[Eugene Daniels]

Black Out Loud, available now, wherever you get your books. If you are an audiobook person as we are.

[Jeff Bennett]

Did you know that we have an audiobook too? Yes.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You did, yes.

[Jeff Bennett]

24, 25, 25 hours in a booth, cumulatively.

[Eugene Daniels]

All right, all right. So it's, you know, they pay you extra when you do it yourself. Shout out. Shout out to Jeff Bennett. Jeff, we appreciate you. We're gonna take a little break, folks, and we're gonna meet you on the other side with the side chat.

[Jeff Bennett]

This is great. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Start.

[Jeff Bennett]

Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews all on the app download today.

[Eugene Daniels]

You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it? Yeah. So do we. Here at the Designer Shoe Warehouse. We'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love or the trends everyone's obsessing over

[Jeff Bennett]

or shoes that make you feel like, well, you.

[Eugene Daniels]

So go ahead, show off a little. Buying shoes that get you at prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you. She loves it hot, he loves it cool. The Pod by eight Sleep is a smart mattress cover that fits on your bed and keeps each side at the perfect temperature all night long. By staying comfortably warm or cool, the Pod helps you sleep deeper and wake up feeling more rested. Every morning you get daily health insights and a sleep fitness score. However you sleep, the pod by Eight Sleep adapts to you. Try [e-mail].

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Hello and welcome to the side chat. Was just us chit chat. Talk about it.

[Eugene Daniels]

Jeff was great. Okay. I love this book.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It's such a good book.

[Eugene Daniels]

You know what? This is making me want to go. Not that I have time, but I'm going to go watch some. I'm going to go watch some oldies. But goodies. Yeah.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Do it while you're prepping. That's what I do now when I prep for the show. I watch. I watch tv.

[Eugene Daniels]

How are you watching?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I'm good at one.

[Eugene Daniels]

What are you watching right now?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Am watching. I think it's called the Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs. I'm not sure.

[Eugene Daniels]

This is Morgan Freeman. Narrator.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Morgan Freeman is narrating, like basically the dinosaur. There's four episodes. I'm on episode two. Episode one tells you like everything that happened before the dinosaurs get here, y'. All. It rained for a million years on Earth. A million on Earth basically looked like Mars, essentially. And nothing could grow here until God. Until. And then somebody made it rain for a million years. And that is how we ended up with all the water. That's where the grass grew. After that, a lot of the they were little lizards. They weren't exactly dinosaurs.

[Eugene Daniels]

This is the one Steven Spielberg directed. Right?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So good.

[Eugene Daniels]

Okay. I saw the trailer for this before it came out. Like it's on Netflix.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yeah.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah. Scrolling on it. And I was like, ooh, I need to watch this. So I did bookmark it. I haven't watched it yet. Now somebody, maybe it was Brittany. Shout out to Brittany Rapp. Somebody told me they saw the dinosaurs and they were like, mm, I didn't love it. They didn't tell me nothing new.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I loved it.

[Eugene Daniels]

Okay.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So only a nerd would say it didn't tell you nothing new. I'm a nerd. But this is like, you have to be at another level to be like, oh, I didn't learn anything. It also is a very good reminder in the chaos of our current world

[Eugene Daniels]

that we could all be gone tomorrow.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Well, no, that too. That's not what I was gonna say. That's terrifying that we're like such a small speck in the history of this planet. The amount of time that we as human beings and the way the Homo sapiens that are walking around right now is such a small, like little check mark.

[Eugene Daniels]

It's humbling.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It is humbling.

[Eugene Daniels]

I'm gonna watch it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It's very humbling.

[Eugene Daniels]

It's in my saved. Okay, so shout out to Morgan Freeman

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

and Morgan Freeman's voices.

[Eugene Daniels]

I mean, honestly, it's great. You know, I am wearing my little. These are these little. You know, the little French.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You like a Taylor Swift kid.

[Eugene Daniels]

Okay. Yes.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So I also watched her documentary on Disney and I actually liked it.

[Eugene Daniels]

You got a lot of. You know what I forgot. You work on the weekends. You have a lot of time to watch. I had one day during the week.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Okay, one day.

[Eugene Daniels]

What is it? Okay, so you know, we had Easter dinner last week. And so my sister told me, you gotta find a little whimsy every day. Cause the world is hard. And so my whimsy, I went a little crazy in Hobby lobby.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yeah.

[Eugene Daniels]

And I made Easter baskets for the children. Thank you.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Everything you did was very cute.

[Eugene Daniels]

Thank you. I made Easter baskets for the kids. But then I also got these bracelets. Like, this is a Sagittarius. This one says KJ Sister Sim. One of my sisters in law, she gave this to me. But I made everyone. I got these little bracelet things. Like 600 beads came in there. And I gave them to all the girls. Like the children girls, but also like the women. And then during Easter brunch, after the while people, all the men was playing. We was over there making bracelets. And so I made them like they had your sign on them. Thank you. So what I will be doing this weekend is. Well, I'm traveling, but when I'm not, when I'm done, I'll be making another bracelet. And I'm also now into phone cases. I'm making those as well.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You're making a phone? Making a phone case?

[Eugene Daniels]

I will make you a phone case. I bought some resin. You gotta find. Yes, baby, I got some UV resin. I'm about to make you a phone case. Actually, I'm making you a phone case.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I got a pro.

[Eugene Daniels]

Max, you have a 70.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The big one. Yes.

[Eugene Daniels]

Perfect. I have a case for you.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

All right, you got find some whimsy this weekend.

[Eugene Daniels]

This week, folks.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Find some damn whimsical.

[Eugene Daniels]

Find some whimsy. We're gonna leave it there. Shout out to the whimsical.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yeah, the whimsical.

[Eugene Daniels]

Thank you for Listening Clock. It is produced by Franny Kelly. Our associate producer is Iggy Monda. Additional production support from Brittany Ruff, Malcolm Thomas, Adrianna Thomas, Elijah Gibbs Jones and Colette Holcomb.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Our director is Renee Ambro. Lou Visconti and Emily Gaines are our control room operators. Our stage manager is Durbin Cabell. Our lighting director is John Shurtler. And our Robocam operator is Alex Jones. Our prompter operator is Katie Abline. Mike Brown is our video operator. Mike McConnell is our tech operator. And Jeff Edelman is our tech production operator. Chris Wan is our operations manager. Many shout outs and thanks to Alana Lee, our audio engineers. Our Hazik Ben, Ahmed Farrell, Bob Mallory, Matt Bauer and Val Panamara.

[Eugene Daniels]

Katie Lau is the senior manager of audio production. Aisha Turner is the executive producer of Ms. Now Audio. And Madeline Herringer is senior vice president in charge of audio, digital and long form.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Our theme music is by Jesse McGinty.

[Eugene Daniels]

And we're your hosts, Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

See you next week.

[Eugene Daniels]

Pony Club. Keep on dancing.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Bubba Wallace here from 2311 Racing. You know what's slower than a pace car waiting at the car wash? That's when I fire up Chumba Casino.

[Jeff Bennett]

It turns these slow minutes into fast fun.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

With new games every week, you'll never get bored. Next time you're stuck in the slow lane, speed up with Chumba play [e-mail] let's Jumbo. No for CH as necessary.

[Jeff Bennett]

BGW Group void where prohibited by law. CTNCs 21 sponsored by Jumbo Casino.