Grace Is Necessary, with Sarah McBride

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki

Episode 4: Grace is Necessary, with Sarah McBride
Date: October 29, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki (MSNBC)
Guest: Congresswoman Sarah McBride (Delaware)
Additional Guest: Liz Smith (Political Strategist)

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Overview of Episode Theme

This episode of The Blueprint explores how Democrats can forge a winning strategy in the Trump 2.0 era, particularly in a time when traditional rules about scandal, accountability, and political purity are being upended. Jen Psaki convenes a frank, forward-looking discussion with Congresswoman Sarah McBride—the first trans member of Congress—and political strategist Liz Smith. The episode examines pressing debates within the Democratic Party: how to respond to scandal, build an inclusive coalition, and fight for marginalized communities effectively, all while adapting to rapidly changing expectations from voters and allies alike.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Are We in a Post-Scandal Era?

(00:59-08:47)

• Maine Senate Race / Graham Platner Controversy:
  Jen and Liz examine the candidacy of Graham Platner, the “oysterman,” whose controversial Reddit posts (including self-description as a communist, offensive comments on police and tipping, and a Totenkopf tattoo) have not dampened his popularity.
  • “Do scandals matter? And has the bar been raised for whether or not scandals actually matter? …He was still up by 24 points in the race.” — Jen Psaki (02:55)
• Smith notes that both parties may be entering a “post-scandal era” (04:53), comparing it to past Republican responses to Trump and to Democratic figures like Andrew Cuomo.
• Sen. Chris Murphy (clip): Responds to Platner controversy with empathy and a focus on growth and humanity:
  • “He sounds like a human being to me, a human being who made mistakes, recognizes them, and is very open about it.” — Sen. Chris Murphy (05:52)
• Lessons Learned: Citing the Ralph Northam scandal, guests suggest Democrats are now more likely to “wait and see” how voters react before demanding resignations or ousters.
• Generational Change: Smith argues that grassroots voters want choices, not establishment-imposed outcomes:
  • “Give us a choice. Don't put your finger on the scale. Let us judge the character, the quality of these candidates. And I think that's a healthy thing for the party.” — Liz Smith (08:20)

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2. Scandal, Strategy, and Voter Priorities in Virginia

(08:53-13:16)

• Discussion of the Virginia AG race in which Jay Jones’s past violent text messages surface, leading Republicans to weaponize the scandal in costly ad campaigns. Yet gubernatorial candidate Abigail Spanberger remains comfortably ahead.
  • “The thing about [Winsome Sears’s] strategy… she abruptly shifted it to try to tie Abigail Spanberger to the Attorney General candidate's text messages...” — Jen Psaki (11:14)
• Changing Weight of Scandal:
  • “It’s not just that Trump has sort of numbed everyone to scandal… We're in a moment where the world is scary out there and everybody feels their rights are under threat for good reason… Maybe who the attorney general is in Virginia… matters more than what their text messages were a couple of years ago.” — Jen Psaki (12:22)
• Liz Smith notes that, even in decorum-valuing Virginia, voters seem more motivated by high-stakes policy than by scandal:
  • “Voters have a choice. What team matters more to you, the texts or Trump?” — Liz Smith (12:47)

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3. In Conversation: Congresswoman Sarah McBride

(15:11-43:33)

a. Personal Story, Identity, and the Weight of Being the First

• McBride recounts being a political “nerd” as a child in Delaware and cherishing a signed “Remember me when you’re president” briefing sheet from Joe Biden.
  • “I was insufferable from a young age... For me, the interest in politics that I found as a young person was really rooted in this crisis of hope that I had...” — Sarah McBride (16:37)
• On carrying the weight of being the first trans member of Congress:
  • “It is hard to be a first… But… I do not fulfill my responsibility to any community I'm a part of unless I am first and foremost fulfilling my responsibility to the constituents who have elected me... I genuinely believe that the public benefits from seeing a trans person who is a whole person...” — Sarah McBride (19:03, 20:24)

b. Lessons from the 2024 Election — Response to Anti-Trans Attacks

• Discussion of Kamala Harris’s defeat and the sponsorship of anti-trans ads in key battlegrounds:
  • “There was not a sufficient response. And I get why they made the decision that they did. Hindsight is 20/20, but I do believe that if you are able to respond to those attacks more explicitly, it is pretty powerful in neutralizing them.” — Sarah McBride (23:47)
• McBride points out that the power of those ads was less about their content or accuracy and more about perceptions of Democrats’ priorities:
  • “It reinforced this sense that Democrats aren't focused on economic issues… That is a real perception that we have to grapple with.” — Sarah McBride (24:53)

c. How Should Democrats Respond to Divisive Social Issues?

• Importance of meeting voters “where they are” and addressing their economic anxieties, while also clearly welcoming those who hold more moderate or evolving views on trans rights:
  • “Trans folks need that in this moment. They need Democrats to effectively respond. But... we have to make explicitly clear that voters who have a range of positions on... trans rights, they are welcomed in our coalition.” — Sarah McBride (25:25)

d. Grace, Forgiveness, and Coalition-Building

• The necessity of “grace” in politics—for allies as well as those evolving on rights issues:
  • “Grace is necessary for people to grow. Grace is necessary for people to feel confident and comfortable speaking out... even if they don't feel like they have all of the talking points or all of the language down. But grace is also necessary to create the space for people to change their own positions.” — Sarah McBride (27:59)
• McBride cautions against “cutting people off” purely for imperfect language or views and stresses the value of relationship and conversation to change minds.
  • “One of the problems in our coalition… is we've started to treat our own relationships with people as a tool to either reward or punish people for their positions... It also stops the necessary conversation from happening.” — Sarah McBride (28:33)

e. Rejecting Purity Politics—From Both Left and Center

• Applying forgiveness equally, regardless of whether the “impurity” is left or centrist:
  • “…rejecting purity politics from the left toward the center… [and] from the center toward the left. …We don't have to welcome in people who are committed to bigotry or hatred, but we should welcome in people who are coming to a conversation in good faith… We certainly have to welcome in people who have evolved and changed.” — Sarah McBride (32:40, 34:18)

f. Lessons from LGBTQ+ Youth & History of Rights Movements

• Drawing inspiration from LGBTQ+ youth who must coexist with imperfect allies:
  • “[A young LGBTQ person’s] principal might not totally get it… but maybe that principal is their last line of defense against the bullies... We also have to recognize where the world is and how we can best change it.” — Sarah McBride (36:53)
• Historical model: The marriage equality movement, abolition, and civil rights—progress comes with incremental coalition-building:
  • “When we create a little bit more space in our tent, when we welcome imperfect allies, when we meet voters where they are… it can transform public opinion…” (38:04)
  • Referencing Lincoln, McBride advocates for leadership that remains “within arm’s reach of the public”:
    • “If they get too far out ahead, they lose their grip on public opinion and they can no longer bring people with them.” — Sarah McBride (42:25)

g. Advocacy, Strategy, and Effective Change

• Against demanding “perfection from the start”:
  • “If we demand perfection... we're going to have a really, really morally pure club at the gulag we've been sent off to. Right now is a five-alarm fire... and the priority right now has to be stopping the attacks.” — Sarah McBride (39:49)
• Advocates employing discipline and patience, drawing lessons from past rights movement strategies (incremental, coalition-building victories).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On post-scandal politics:
  “We seem to live increasingly in this post scandal era of politics… Are Democrats moving that way? Maybe.” — Liz Smith (04:54)

• On coalition-building and forgiveness:
  “We don’t have to welcome in people who are committed to bigotry or hatred, but we should welcome in people who are coming to a conversation in good faith with goodwill and an openness to listen and be curious and not judgmental.” — Sarah McBride (34:18)

• On grace and political progress:
  “Grace is necessary for people to grow. Grace is necessary for people to feel confident and comfortable speaking out in defense, even if they don't feel like they have all of the talking points or all of the language down.” — Sarah McBride (27:59)

• On LGBTQ+ youth and lessons for Democrats:
  “Do we summon the ruthless survival skills of an LGBTQ kid in Florida or South Dakota who doesn't have the luxury of prioritizing purity and perfection over goodwill and good intentions?” — Jen Psaki paraphrasing McBride (35:45)

• On the marriage equality movement and incrementalism:
  “When we create a little bit more space in our tent, when we welcome imperfect allies… it can transform public opinion at a rate that no one anticipates. …With it, nothing is impossible.” — Sarah McBride (38:36)

• On leadership versus public opinion:
  “Lincoln always understood that political leaders should absolutely be out in front of public opinion. …But they do have to remain in arm’s reach… If they get too far out ahead, they lose their grip.” — Sarah McBride (42:25)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:59–13:39 — Jen Psaki and Liz Smith: Post-scandal politics & Virginia race
• 15:11–43:33 — Sarah McBride interview: experiences as a “first”, anti-trans politics, coalition-building, and strategies for progressive change
• 16:37 — McBride's Biden childhood story and “crisis of hope”
• 19:03 — On being the first/only trans member of Congress
• 23:47 — Discussing 2024 anti-trans attack ads and campaign lessons
• 27:59 — The necessity of “grace” for progress
• 32:40 — Purity politics and the big tent party
• 36:53 — Lessons Democrats can learn from LGBTQ+ youth
• 42:25 — Citing Lincoln: Leaders must stay within reach of public opinion

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Conclusion

This episode challenges Democrats to move beyond rigid purity politics and instead foster a “big tent” coalition—one open to conversations, honest mistakes, and growth. Drawing lessons from recent scandals, LGBTQ+ advocacy, and hard-fought political campaigns, Congresswoman Sarah McBride and Jen Psaki urge listeners to embrace grace, forgiveness, and incrementalism as essential tools for progress and effective change in a tumultuous political era.

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For listeners hungry for substance, this episode delivers nuanced perspectives on the ever-shifting rules of engagement for progressive politics—and offers actionable insights for those seeking to make their party, and their country, better.

Transcript

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[Jen Psaki]

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[Jen Psaki]

Hi everyone, it's Jen Psaki. And thanks so much for tuning in to episode four of the Blueprint. This is a place where we want to have discussions about the party out of power, the rising stars, the debates, and people's ideas too. You're definitely going to want to stick around for my conversation with Congresswoman Sarah McBride. That's coming up a little bit later. But first I'm going to bring back my old friend and political savant, Liz Smith. There's a lot we're going to dig into about what happened this week in Politics. Okay, Liz Smith, we are in episode four. A lot has happened since we recorded our first episode just a couple of weeks ago. I mean, in the world, because we're in a bit of a hellscape, but also in the main Senate race. I mean, we were at the time in our first episode, we talked a lot about the main Senate race and the oysterman. Graham Platner. Right, the oysterman. Now, the oysterman is still very much in the race. He still had he had about 800 people at a town hall on Monday night in Maine. But we've learned a lot about him and things that he put on Reddit and also his tattoo over the last couple of weeks, including this. He referred to himself as a communist. He said all police officers are bastards. He downplayed sexual assault and made comments suggesting black people don't leave tips. That was on Reddit. Then a couple days later, we learned that he had a tattoo, kind of a Nazi skull tattoo known as a Totenkopf, something he has since gotten covered up. And he's talked about this. He's answered some questions about it. But that's a lot to digest about a candidate yet. Yet here's the interesting thing. This is what I want to talk about it, which is really, do scandals matter? And has the bar been raised for whether or not scandals actually matter? Because in a poll that came in the period of time between the Reddit posts and the Nazi skull tattoo, that's a lot. He was still up by 24 points in the race. And as I mentioned earlier this week, when, when people did know about the Nazi skull Tattoo, he had 800 people show up at a town hall in Maine. There were cars lined up. I think you and I were texting back and forth photos of the cause. It's just, it's so interesting. It's an interesting political story. So a couple years ago, this would have prompted not just from Democratic leaders who people don't always care what they have to say, but from activists from groups, calls for him to drop out. That has not happened. And it's been interesting to me also what some Democratic leaders, and I don't just mean Bernie Sanders, have had to say. But what struck you?

[Liz Smith]

Well, first of all, the thing about that poll is it wasn't just against some random Democrat.

[Jen Psaki]

It's against the very good point term.

[Liz Smith]

Governor Bain, who is relatively popular.

[Jen Psaki]

Pretty popular.

[Liz Smith]

Relatively popular. Take away the scandals, anything that's still completely remarkable. And it shows that there is a lot of grassroots support for this guy. Now, will this stuff matter? I don't know. We seem to live increasingly in this post scandal era of politics. We definitely see that on the Republican side, Donald Trump getting elected in 2016 and in 2024, with all the added baggage, right. January 6th felony convictions, all of that sort of shows that Republicans have sort of moved past scandal. Are Democrats moving that way? Maybe. We're seeing some signs of it in the New York mayoral primary, which we've talked about a lot. And as you know, I previously advised Andrew Cuomo, but I'm now not a fan of his, but to put it mildly. But he got 44% of the vote and he was endorsed by people like Jim Clyburn, Bill Clinton, a lot of members of the establishment. And you never would have seen that before. So, yeah, I think we could be moving into a post scandal era for Democrats as well. But one thing that I find really fascinating is how some of these establishment figures have been responding to Platner's scandal. And I have a lot of thoughts. But before I want to give them, I want to play a video of Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy on CNN this past Sunday.

[Senator Chris Murphy]

Do you still think Platner is impressive? Yeah, I saw that reporting. I think I'm meeting with him this upcoming week. So I'm certainly interested to hear from him about it. I mean, anytime you see something like that, you scratch your head. But I've also listened to him talk about, I mean, the difficult time that he went through in his life. And frankly, it's not unfamiliar to a lot of soldiers who came back from service and had a very difficult time readjusting. So he sounds like a human being to me, a human being who made mistakes, recognizes them, and is very open about it.

[Jen Psaki]

Here's what I think is very good about Chris Murphy's response and Chris Murphy in general. I mean, I was working at the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee when he was elected in 2006, meaning he's been in office for almost 20 years. So he's been around a while in Washington. But he is not a person who operates like an ostrich in politics. He doesn't keep his head in the sand and just pretend like nothing has changed in the electorate or in issues around the country. And I think that is the real difference between somebody who can evolve in the political world and thrive in it, and somebody who's just trying to survive and hold onto kind of their rules. They think that politics plays by because politics is about moments in time, right? It's not about.

[Liz Smith]

Are you talking about Chuck Schumer there?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I may be talking about him and a few others. And, you know, though, I would say for you and I, you and I have been involved in politics for a long time, right? The rules of the game of how people got elected in 2002, when I did my first campaign, or 2004, when I did my first presidential, are very different than they are now. And politics is about seeing and hearing and listening to where the electorate is, which is why I think the main Senate race is so interesting.

[Liz Smith]

What's interesting to me, too, is how these people have responded. Right? And I think there are a couple things that inform it. In 2019, Governor Ralph Northam of Virginia had this massive blackface scandal, right? Every local Virginia Democrat, every national Democrat, including Pete Buttigieg, who I was working for during his presidential race, called on Ralph Northam to resign. He didn't resign, and he ended up leaving office as one of the most popular governors in the country. And I think what that episode taught us is sometimes, take a beat. Let's see how the voters are absorbing this, and if they care as Much as, you know, the politicians do, because voters just don't have as much time in their lives to get upset about optics and all of these things. But the other thing that I think, think is at play here is that Democrats are learning the lessons from 2024 and 2016, where a lot of voters feel like, you know, in that presidential primary in 2016, the establishment put their thumb on the scale against Bernie Sanders, and in 2024, that we just sort of, you know, had a coronation for Kamala Harris without any sort of contest, and they're saying, give us a choice. Don't put your finger on the scale. Let us judge the character, the quality of these candidates. And I think that's a healthy thing for the party and that we should not be in the business of squashing grassroots candidates.

[Jen Psaki]

I agree. It's also this, like, letting go of some rigidity.

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

And a fear of making mistakes or what you wrote in your college essay that is going to go public and, you know, back in the day may have taken you down. There's also, I mean, the Virginia races, especially the Attorney General race, is also kind of a current, present example of this. When we talk next week, we'll know what happened. But tell me about what you think about that one.

[Liz Smith]

So that one's. That one's a lot. Okay. So Virginia Attorney General candidate Jay Jones, the Democratic nominee, was discovered to have sent text messages in 2022 saying the former GOP House speaker in Virginia should be shot. Jones later suggested that the Speaker's children should be shot in order for the speaker to change his political views. That's pretty tough for those text messages to come out at any time, but especially in the weeks after Charlie Kirk was assassinated. Now, since then, the Republican candidate for Attorney General, Jason miares, has spent $2.8 million this month on ads. The Republican candidate for governor, Winsome Earl Sears, spent $2.1 million on ads related to the text. And we're seeing it show up in the polls. In September, Jones was leading Miara's 51 to 45. Now the same pollster finds Jones down five points and the race tied at 46. 46. Meanwhile, the Democratic candidate for governor, Abigail Spanberger, continues to lead her opponent by double digits, 54 to 42. And here's an ad from the Republican candidate for governor, Winsome Earl Sears, that I want you to see, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

We start with breaking news from the campaign trail.

[Liz Smith]

Jay Jones is under fire tonight.

[Jen Psaki]

Jones is under fire.

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

J. Jones is under fire after messages he sent in 2022 saying former Virginia House Speaker Todd Gilbert should be shot. I'm excited about this ticket, okay?

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, first of all, I'm a Virginian. Winsome Sears, Earl Sears, sorry, is not going to become the governor of Virginia. And I will buy everybody in the bureau coffee next week if she becomes the governor of Virginia. But the thing about her strategy, which is so telling here is first, she had this kind of very anti trans focused strategy on the air. That's, that's, I guess she took a page out of the playbook from 2024 and thought, this is how I'm gonna defeat Abigail Smanberger. And then she abruptly shifted it to try to tie Abigail Spanberger to the Attorney General candidates text messages from a few years ago. And I, I never thought I would quote Barbara Comstock, but here we are. Here we are in 2025 and here's. She said what? You're going to blame a woman for a guy's problems? That's what she basically said about it. And she's right. And it hasn't worked. It doesn't work. It's not working. Spanberger is still far ahead in this race, which, which is quite telling. But it strikes me, and I know we've been talking about kind of scandals and what they mean through the course of this conversation, but to me, it's not just that Trump has sort of numbed everyone to scandal. And I say that as somebody who lived through the tan suit debacle of whatever year that was when Barack Obama dared to wear a tan suit to the White House briefing room and everybody lost their minds. But beyond that, it's also, we're in a moment where the world is scary out there and everybody feels their rights are under threat for good reason, including our rights to participate in the process of voting and having our voices heard. And you know what? Maybe who the attorney general is in Virginia, a state that is a very purple state, matters more matters that they're not so leaning Trump more than what their text messages were a couple of years ago. And we'll see if that's the case. We'll see in a week. But to me, that's one of the telling things about this moment. Right?

[Liz Smith]

Voters have a choice. What team matters more to you, the Tex or Trump? I think it's going to be Trump. But I would just say as someone who worked in Virginia, that's one of those states that does care a lot about decorum and civility. So good to see it hurting Jones a bit.

[Jen Psaki]

No doubt it will hurt him. We will see what will happen. I don't know what side I'm going to bet on this for, but I will. I mean, next week, Liz, we're going to be in New York together. Because I'll be in New York for the election coverage the night before. So I'll buy you coffee either way.

[Liz Smith]

Or maybe you could come to Phoebe's. The Bengals bar down by me could watch them beat the Bears. Because if they don't beat the Bears, I'm not sure if I'm going to show up for this podcast taping next week.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh, well, okay. Come on, Joe Flacco. We still root for you even though you're a geriatric in football terms, but we still root for you. All right, Liz Smith.

[Liz Smith]

Thanks, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

Next up is my conversation with Sarah McBride, a congresswoman from the state of Delaware and kind of my former coworker. Stick around.

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[Senator Chris Murphy]

As the same day.

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The People.

[Jen Psaki]

My guest this week is the freshman Congresswoman from Delaware, Sarah McBride. She is of course the first trans member of Congress, but she also 15 years ago was an intern in the Obama White House when I was the traveling press secretary for the Obama reelection campaign. Now since then she has done a lot. She was a state senator in Delaware. She helped pass the largest increase in social safety net for the people of Delaware in the state Senate. She's been a big advocate for healthcare, and she's been very vocal about the impact of the government shutdown. But I wanted to talk to her also about the party, the Democratic Party, where it's gone, what's gone wrong, and most importantly, where it goes from here. Okay. Congresswoman Sarah McBride, I am so happy to see you. I feel like we have an overlapping world because your Delaware connection and background, which I have my own through the Biden world, of course. But also. And tell me if I'm getting the this right. I think in 2012, you were an intern in the White House.

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

Yes, I interned in the Obama White House in the Office of Public Engagement in the fall of 2012.

[Jen Psaki]

One of the things I read about you, I consider myself a big political nerd, but I was not an early political nerd. I would say you were a very early political nerd. And I say that in a loving way. I read this thing about you that former President Biden gave you a sheet from a briefing book and signed it for you. Tell me more about that and do you still have it?

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

So, first of all, thank you for outing me. I was insufferable from a young age. I've broken the first rule of politics, which is to pretend like you just, like, woke up one morning and suddenly were called to it, decided that politics was of interest to you, and, you know, you stumble into the Oval Office. No, I've been interested in politics for most of my life. And I think in many ways, just to put it in context, for me, the interest in politics that I found as a young person was really rooted in this crisis of hope that I had as a young person. As I became aware of who I am and how so much of the world was not ready for me, I saw that politics was the place where you could make the most amount of change for the most number of people in the most number of ways possible. And I found hope in that story and that possibility. And so I was hooked from a really young age. And obviously, as you know, in Delaware, everyone's dated, mated, or related. You run into your elected officials at the grocery store or at a restaurant. And one night When I was 10 or 11, I was out at a pizza restaurant in Wilmington, and the giant of Delaware politics, Joe Biden, walks in and he could see my eyes light up. And he came over and my parents introduced me, and he took out the schedule for that day. I remember it was the schedule had a, I believe Foreign relations nomination hearing for Ambassador Pickering.

[Jen Psaki]

This is really nerdy.

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

Well, it was up on my wall for several years. And he took out the piece of paper and wrote what I'm sure he wrote to every eager 10 year old. Remember me when you're president. And cited Joe Biden. And I had it on my wall for several years. My mother is a chronic trasher of any extraneous things, so my fear is that she probably threw it away at some point when I was in college.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh, I relate to that. But I wish that relic was. If your mother is listening, pull that out because it's such a good relic. One of the things that struck me is the weight that's been on your shoulders from being the first. And that that's an honor I know you've talked about, but it's also a weight. And I just wonder how. How you've that sat with you and what's been the most challenging for you.

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

I will always say, and start with the fact that I feel immense gratitude. Right. I am living a life that seemed so impossible to me as that 10 or 11 year old that it was almost incomprehensible. And the fact that I have had throughout my life opportunities and responsibilities of being first, a first in so many different spaces, it reinforces how lucky I am. How lucky I am to live a life of purpose, of meaning and to have opportunities that I never dreamed would be possible as a young person, and opportunities that by definition are not yet afforded to so many people like me around this country. And so I am really grateful. It is hard to be a first. It is a hard. It is hard to be the only one in a space. It's hard to recognize and know and navigate that there are often, in the short term, seemingly contradictory responsibilities. But what I have come to the conclusion of over the last several years and being a first in the State Senate and a first in Congress, is that in the long term, I do not fulfill my responsibility to any community I'm a part of unless I am first and foremost fulfilling my responsibility to the constituents who have elected me to represent them and serve them. I think that that is true for any first, and I think that that's particularly true for me as a first when there is so much toxicity around trans people in our politics right now from the Republicans. I genuinely believe that the public benefits from seeing a trans person who is a whole person, and in this case, a member of Congress who is effectively working on all of the issues that matter and maintaining their capacity to deliver for their Constitue. But it's, it's. Truthfully, I mean it's a lonely position, especially in this moment. I've mentioned that I don't know that there is an example of someone who's been a first in federal office and the district that they represent isn't significantly or even with a majority made up of that same identity. And that presents a real challenge. And I know that there are people in my own community who want to see me fight in ways that feel more viscerally comforting to them. And that's feedback I hear. But I know what I'm here to do and I, and I believe I know how to do it.

[Jen Psaki]

The way you just described people in your community who want you to fight in a different way than you may be wanting to fight. Right. It's both the first and fighting. You are the target of all of the ire right in Congress of the Nancy Maces of the world and others. But you also have the weight of representing community that wants you to be everything they want you to be. Which I think it reminds me. It's a very, it's very different obviously, but I obviously worked for Barack Obama for 10 years and it reminds me in some ways of this weight that he felt in a different way. This conversation and the whole podcast is meant to be forward looking about the Democratic Party. But one of the things I find there to be a hangover with is the 2024 election a little bit. So I just want to estimate just one moment on that because you hear a lot of people, I'm sure I can't even imagine how many people you've heard this from who say that. A big contributor, Kamala Harris loss was the over $20 million in anti trans attack ads spent against her and her lack of response. Her response that people didn't find satisfactory. What do you make of that? What do you think of that?

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

I think there are two critical lessons from that election and from the relative success of that particular ad that ran in battleground media markets, including in Delaware while I was running for Congress, because we're in the Philadelphia media market.

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Kamala supports taxpayer funded sex changes for.

[Jen Psaki]

Prisoners, surgery for prisoners, for prisoners. Every transgender inmate in the prison system would have access.

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It's hard to believe, but it's true. Even the liberal media was shocked. Kamala supports taxpayer funded sex changes for prisoners and illegal aliens.

[Jen Psaki]

Every transgender inmate would have access.

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[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

The first is that there was not a sufficient response. And I get why they made the decision that they. They did. Hindsight is 20 20, but I do believe that if you are able to respond to those attacks more explicitly, it is pretty powerful in neutralizing them. I think we're seeing it right now in Virginia by Abigail Spanberger, who I think is more directly responding to the right wing obsession with cultural war issues and trans issues in particular. And I think that Democrats historically have, at least in the last couple of years, not done a good job of responding. And I think part of that, quite frankly, is rooted in a discomfort that Democrats have around talking about trans issues and this fear that they'll never be able to get it right, that they won't be able to strike a balance that meets voters where they are while still honoring the community. And I think that that's a false choice. I think you can defend trans people and meet voters where they are at the same time. Indeed, trans folks need that in this moment. They need Democrats to effectively respond. But the second thing I would say is the reason why that ad was, I think, powerful for some voters, and I think the data shows that for some voters it was. I'm not going to pretend like it wasn't. It was less about the trans specific content of the ad and more about the fact that it reinforced this sense that Democrats aren't focused on economic issues. And whether that is true or not, whether that is a byproduct of a Republican manufactured caricature or not, it is a real perception that we have to grapple with. And I think our party has to do a better job of both centering bold economic policy that meets the needs of the American people, that acknowledges the economic pain, the financial pain that so many people are dealing with, and provide solutions for that. But I also think that even if we do that, we also have to communicate that we are welcoming to people who are maybe hold a fundamental belief that trans people are worthy of being treated with dignity and respect, but disagree with some Democrats on extracurricular programs or other aspects of trans rights. On more specific policy front, we do have to communicate to those folks that are still on a journey, not people who are dedicated to opposing trans rights, but people who are still on a journey or have a mix and range of feelings on particular policy issues, that they are welcomed into our coalition. Because if we don't communicate that to them, even if we are talking and focusing on economic policy, a voter will say, well, even if you're not talking about these issues or prioritizing them in your messaging, if you're filtering, who can be part of your coalition based on these issues? I'm not dumb. I'm going to presume that that then is a priority issue for you. And so I think we have to talk about them. We have to talk about them in a way that defends trans people but meets voters where they are. And we have to make explicitly clear that voters who have a range of positions on. On particular policies related to trans rights, they are welcomed in our coalition. And I think our community, my community, has to understand that that's not the end of a conversation. That's the beginning of a conversation.

[Jen Psaki]

Part of the line is where do you draw the line? Right. And this is one of the things I think people struggle with, because I've seen people, and I've called this out a bit, overreact into what they think the weight of that ad or the weight of the issue overall was. And I think you also touched on something so important. There is a fear about. Talk about issues around trans rights in the wrong way, right? Saying, using the wrong words or the wrong language and people being canceled and for. In some way, for that. And change, to me, positive change is acceptance, inequality. But that doesn't mean it happens overnight. So what does that look like for trans rights and for trans people who don't feel like they always have a voice? Right. But see this playing out in the political world.

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

Look, look, I think that people's grace and patience has been abused over the history of our country. But the course correction to that cannot be to eliminate all grace from our politics. Grace is necessary for people to grow. Grace is necessary for people to feel confident and comfortable speaking out in defense, even if they don't feel like they have all of the talking points or all of the language down. But grace is also necessary to create the space for people to change their own positions.

[Jen Psaki]

Like a bridge. Like giving people a bridge to walk over.

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

Yes. And you know, where would we be in our politics if in 2004 we said to everyone who. Or in 2008, for that matter, we said to everyone, if you aren't 100% supportive of marriage equality, you have no place in our coalition? Not only would we have lost that election, but we would have stunted the conversation that was happening in an effective way that ultimately opened hearts and changed minds? I think one of the problems in our coalition that's developed over the last decade or so is we've started to treat. Welcoming people into our coalition. We've started to treat our own relationships with people as a tool to either reward or punish people for their positions. And we've seen this trend in our coalition that if you have a position that I find to be offensive or hurtful, I cut you off. And not only is that performative allyship that takes off the burden from the ally of actually educating someone, it also stops the necessary conversation from happening. And it undermines our ability to coalition build because it conditions us to then think that welcoming someone in and being in relationship with someone automatically then means we're condoning everything they think or believe. That can't be our mindset here. We have to recognize that change making requires conversation and it's not always easy and it's not always fair, but it's definitely worth it.

[Jen Psaki]

We'll take a quick break. And on the other side, more from my conversation with Congresswoman Sarah McBride NetCredit.

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[Jen Psaki]

How do you think about I mean, there is a version of this around very different issues of course happening in the main Senate race where there is a candidate Graham Platner who's unquestionably incredibly talented and has is sparking a bit of a movement in Maine, who has said some questionable and offensive things on Reddit, who has a tattoo that most people would find quite offensive, has apologized, has explained it. I'm not necessarily asking you, unless you want to share what you think of who should win in that ra, in that primary. But it's sort of a bigger question about, as a party, how should the party think about who they welcome in as candidates, as people who are part of it? Because you're right. I mean, some of the history within the Democratic Party has been if you aren't with me on these 99 issues, you are not welcome to the party. This may be different than that, but what do you, what do you make of that?

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

First of all, I'll just say I genuinely think that that main voters should be the ones that are making this decision and can decide for themselves who is best able to take on Susan Collins and then hopefully represent them in the United States Senate. But I will say a couple things. One, when we talk about rejecting purity politics, I don't think that that's just rejecting purity politics from the left toward the center right. It's not just rejecting purity politics when a person has a more moderate position than us. I think it also means rejecting purity politics from the center toward the left. I think that we are seeing right now in our politics in a lot of places, the establishment using identity politics to say your position on this particular issue, your position on Israel and Palestine, your position on X, Y and Z policy means that you shouldn't serve. And I think that that's equally as dangerous in building a big tent, because it has to go both way. The second thing is, I do believe that we have to have more space in our coalition for forgiveness. And I do think there's something powerful in demonstrating that we are welcoming in voters and in some cases, even candidates who have evolved themselves, who have said things or done things that they regret in their past that they have genuinely grown from and changed from. I will say I initially thought on this particular point with the Reddit posts that maybe that was an opportunity for us to show the public that we are a party that welcomes people who haven't always been perfect on all of the issues, or even to this day might not even be perfect on all of the issues or speak perfectly on all of the issues. Obviously, I think that the more recent news around the tattoo raised more fundamental questions that Maine voters have to grapple with. But I think the fundamental truth remains that we have to reject purity politics in all of its forms, whether it's coming from the left toward the center or from the center to the left and just ground our perspective in goodwill and good intentions. We don't have to welcome in people who are committed to bigotry or hatred, but we should welcome in people who are coming to a conversation in good faith with goodwill and an openness to listen and be curious and not judgmental. And we certainly have to welcome in people who have evolved and changed, even if they say things that if they were saying it today, we would say, no, that's unacceptable. But maybe they said it 5, 10, 15 years ago and they've genuinely changed from there.

[Jen Psaki]

I think it's an important discussion for people to have. Right. About who you welcome back in, what you welcome back in. I mean, even. And obviously the voters of Georgia will decide. But Jeff Duncan was a former Republican. Do you say you can't run as a Democrat if he wants to be a Democrat? I don't think so. But it's interesting debates around this across the country. You made this analogy. I kind of loved this, and I hope I get it right. You said, quote, do we summon. You were talking about the conversations out there about identity and rights of people who may not understand or be hostile and how it's difficult, but something that a lot of LGBTQ people and people who kids have already understood on an instinctive level because of what they've experienced. You know, it's very easy for, you know, upper middle class, like white people on the coast who are cis, to say, oh, you should never tolerate. Right. And you said, do we summon the ruthless survival skills of an LGBTQ kid in Florida or South Dakota who doesn't have the luxury of prioritizing purity and perfection over good will and good intentions? And I wonder if there's. We've been talking about this a bit, but if there's a lesson that the Democratic Party can learn from some of these kids and what these kids have experienced and have had to navigate in neighborhoods and communities and schools where they might feel outcasts would have to find a path forward.

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

Yeah, I really do believe that there are so many lessons for our party from whether it's a young LGBTQ person who's having to live in and navigate spaces that aren't as accepting or sort of perfect in both language and policy as maybe Brooklyn or San Francisco or even, for that matter, much of Delaware. We have a lot to learn from them. Those young people, when they're going to school, their principal might mess up on pronouns. Their principal might not totally get it on some particular policy needs. But maybe that principle is their last line of defense against the bullies who are harassing that student at school. Their family might not always say the right thing or get everything, but they're welcoming their child in. And that's not to say that we should just accept that, that reality as it is permanently. But we also have to recognize where the world is and how we can best change it. And I have had to change a lot of hearts and minds over the years. I've had to convince a lot of people of a lot of different things from my own life to my own work. I have never successfully changed a person's mind, personally or politically, by telling them from the start that they're a bigot, by shaming them, and by telling them that all of their concerns are irrational and unfounded and wrong and they should be ashamed for even having those questions or concerns. The other thing I think we learn as a party is from the marriage equality movement. We learn that when we create a little bit more space in our tent, when we welcome imperfect allies, when we meet voters where they are, when we allow for evolution and actually model that evolution for the country, it can transform public opinion at a rate that no one anticipates. And yes, the rights of a minority should never objectively have to depend on public opinion. But nothing is truly sustainable without public opinion. And with it, nothing is impossible.

[Jen Psaki]

One of the things I've heard, I can't even imagine how many times you've heard, is that if people who want to be allies of the trans community are not pushing and advocating, you've sort of answered this question, but I just want to push you a little bit more on it. And are not, are not saying you can use pronouns. Pronouns are not hard to use. You should be advocating for every kid to be able to play in the sport with the gender of who they are. And if we're not pushing for it, you're giving people license out there to not be as aggressive, not push for change. I know you've heard this, but what do you say to people?

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

One, I think it misunderstands human nature and human behavior. If we demand perfection from the start, if we demand perfection in word and in deed from the start, then we are going to have a really, really morally pure club at the gulag we've been sent off to. Right now is a five alarm fire for our country and for so many marginalized communities in this country, including trans people. And the priority right now has to be stopping the attacks. We have to be Clear eyed about what's at stake right now. We have to be clear eyed about what the work is before us in this moment, what is the battle before us in this moment. And as someone who's trying to fight for all of my constituents, including my trans constituents, I know I will not have the numbers with me that I need to defend people in this moment if I demand that everyone be perfect in order to join me. I also think movements for civil and human rights throughout history have always, certainly in the television era, have always successfully fought for change with discipline and with strategy, with picking their fights, with not dying on every hill. They started with, for instance, the civil rights movement started with the abolition of slavery. It then moved to basic civil rights. They passed the Civil Rights act in 1964 after compromising by taking out the voting rights provisions, which then they were able to pass the next year. And then three years after that they passed the Fair Housing act and the Civil Rights act of 1968. Piece by piece, issue by issue, policy by policy, not only was progress made, but they took then the country with them on a journey. Not just a journey to deeper understanding, but a journey, policy by policy. The gay rights movement started with pushing back against anti sodomy laws. It eventually moved to marriage. We have to fight in ways that are effective, not just in ways that feel viscerally comforting to us. And I think too often we find ourselves wanting the comfort of preaching to our own fire rather than the exercising the courage to truly grow our congregation.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, and extend the bridge.

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

I think a lot about for political leadership. I think a lot about Lincoln as a model. And Lincoln always understood that political leaders should absolutely be out in front of public opinion. They should absolutely be leading public opinion. But they do have to remain in arm's reach of the public in order to be able to pull the public along with them. If they get too far out ahead, they lose their grip on public opinion and they can no longer bring people with them. And so if we want effective leadership and effective change making, if we actually want to achieve the progress that we as progressives are fighting for, then we have to employ the strategies, the discipline, the tactics that throughout the last hundred years have actually delivered the kind of change that make my service possible and make so much of the progress that we are beneficiaries of in this moment possible.

[Jen Psaki]

It's a perfect place to end. Congresswoman Sarah McBride. When I knew, when we decided to do a second season, you were at the very top of my list of people I really wanted to speak with and I've been really looking forward to it. So thank you so much for taking the time.

[Congresswoman Sarah McBride]

Thank you.

[Jen Psaki]

Thanks so much for listening to the Blueprint. You can subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. You can also subscribe to my newsletter the Blueprint with Jen Psaki, where every week I look at the debate within the Democratic Party over how to win back voters. Sign up for [e-mail] blueprintnewslife. All episodes of the Blueprint are also available on YouTube. Visit msnbc.com theblueprint to watch. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki is produced by Franny Kelly alongside Leah Collins, Michelle Hoffner, Andrew Joyce, Tricia McKinney and Eggy Monda. Additional production support from McKenna Roberts. Our audio engineer is Bob Mallory, Katie Lau is the Senior Manager of Audio production, our senior producer is Miguel Susana and Alex Lybica is the Executive producer of the Briefing, Aisha Turner is the Executive Producer of MSNBC Audio and Madeline Herringer is Senior Vice President in charge of audio, digital and long form.

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