Obama Plays Ball While Celebs Duck for Cover

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

Podcast: MS NOW Presents: Clock It
Episode: "Obama Plays Ball While Celebs Duck for Cover"
Hosts: Simone Sanders Townsend & Eugene Daniels
Guest: Jemele Hill
Release Date: February 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Clock It" dives into the collision of politics and culture in an era defined by Trump’s cultural power grabs and a divided America. The hosts, Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels, discuss the legacy of Rev. Jesse Jackson after his passing, President Trump’s use of the arts and pop culture to shape political narratives, athletes and celebrities responding—or refusing to respond—to a turbulent political moment, Barack Obama’s enduring cultural cool, and the risks of political apathy among public figures. Special guest Jemele Hill joins to unpack sports, politics, and the evolving strategies of both leaders and the led in today’s America.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy of Reverend Jesse Jackson

[01:22–05:33]

• Opening Reflection: The episode opens with tributes to Rev. Jesse Jackson, discussing his role as a cultural and political pioneer who shaped modern activism and the Democratic Party.
  • Simone: “Without Jesse Jackson, there would be no Barack Obama. There would definitely not be no little small Sanders towns.” [02:46]
  • Eugene: “He really understood culture and the attention economy before anyone was using that term...” [01:43]
• Procedural Legacy: Jackson’s push for proportional representation revolutionized DNC delegate allocation, making space for minority leaders and shaping contemporary politics.
• Personal Impact: Both hosts highlight Jackson's influence not just nationally but personally, as a mentor and inspiration for young Black political strategists and activists.
  • Simone: “If Maxine Waters was in my ear right now, she'd be like, y’all better give Reverend Jackson his due.” [03:57]

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2. The Culture Wars at the Olympics

[06:04–12:23]

• Olympic Ambivalence & Patriotism: Simone and Eugene banter about their mixed feelings regarding the Olympics and the intersection of sport, identity, and national pride.
  • Simone: “I am a patriotic American. Okay. And we have been watching. I've been watching the skeleton.” [06:33]
• Athletes as Activists: Discussion of an Olympic skier who expressed "mixed emotions" about representing the US, triggering a Trump rebuke and VP JD Vance's call to "shut up and dribble."
  • JD Vance: “You’re there to play a sport… You’re not there to pop off about politics.” [07:55]
• IOC Policy and Ukraine: The hosts analyze the IOC’s stance on political statements and shout out Ukrainian athletes as symbols of cultural resilience against Russian aggression.
  • Simone: “...Their resilience is the reason they are still standing and fighting to this day.” [10:52]
• Cultural Interconnection: The Olympics offer a rare space where global conflict, culture, and politics become inseparable.
  • Eugene: “It reminds us all how interconnected we are…culture and politics are to each other.” [12:01]

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3. Cardi B, Kirk Franklin & the Black Church in Politics

[12:25–17:29]

• Cardi B’s Advocacy: Cardi B publicly claps back at ICE, DHS, and government policy, inserting herself into political battles about immigration and government shutdowns.
  • Simone: “I did not have Cardi B, ICE, and DHS on my bingo card, but here we are.” [19:23]
• Kirk Franklin’s Red Carpet Sermon: Franklin urges the church to get “in the streets and save and love as many people as we can. And…feed…take care of people.” [14:05]
• Contrast with Nicki Minaj: The episode contrasts Cardi’s activism with Nicki Minaj’s rightward turn and celebrity association with Trump.
  • Eugene: “You actually see someone who is representing what the majority of Americans…are feeling.” [14:42]
• Historic Context: Simone traces political engagement in the Black Church back to emancipation and highlights underrepresented clergy in current activism.

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4. Celebrities Ducking Politics

[19:24–23:08]

• Hollywood’s Non-Answers: Neil Patrick Harris and Rupert Grint dodge political questions at the Berlin Film Festival.
  • NPH: “I'm always interested in doing things that are apolitical…” [20:14]
• The Artist’s Responsibility: Hosts critique this reticence and invoke Nina Simone: “An artist’s duty is to reflect the times.” [20:46]
• Silence as Stance: Both hosts argue that choosing to say nothing is a political act.
  • Eugene: “Saying nothing is a choice.” [22:54]
• PR Anxiety: There’s criticism of celebrity handlers who fail to prep talent for unavoidable political scrutiny.
  • Simone: “Everything is, in fact, political.” [22:36]

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5. Obama’s Authenticity vs. Trump’s Culture War

With Jemele Hill [25:05–29:32]

• Obama at NBA All-Star Weekend:
  • Obama and Michelle Obama make a public appearance, warmly received by both players and the public—contrasting with Trump’s awkward, isolated boxings at similar events.
  • Jemele: “Barack Obama could have very easily have been in a suite, but that would have been inauthentic to who he is, because he truly is a man of the people.” [28:21]
• Cultural Cool: Jemele, Simone, and Eugene all agree that what Trump and MAGA lack most is the "cool" that Obama possesses, and that cultural acceptance is political capital.

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6. Trump 2.0: The Dangers of Cultural Control

[29:32–36:15]

• Trump’s Strategy:
  • With political guardrails gone, Trump leverages media and cultural confusion to foster chaos, fear, and the sense of perpetual crisis.
  • Jemele: “If you can get the people to be in a constant state of fear, you can get them to capitulate to their own demise.” [32:26]
• Flooding the Zone: Jemele references Steve Bannon’s strategy to “flood the zone” with nonstop crises, fatiguing vigilance and normalization of extremism.
  • Jemele: “Right now, people are feeling very overwhelmed by the news because… literally every 15 minutes…” [34:13]
• International Embarrassment: Olympic athletes and Americans abroad are pressed to answer for US political turmoil, especially concerning ICE and Trump, which the hosts liken to the “drunk friend at the club” everyone’s embarrassed by.

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7. Athletes as Ambassadors & Racial (Dis)proportion

[36:15–43:15]

• James Baldwin’s Wisdom:
  • Eugene paraphrases Baldwin: “I love my country so much, I will then criticize her when I want to." [36:15]
• Unique Pressure on Black Athletes: Black athletes are expected to speak out on justice, while white athletes’ opinions are rarely solicited.
  • Jemele: “Why don't you go ask [white athletes] why they still [support Trump] instead of asking black athletes all the time to have something profound to say?” [39:59]
• Limits of Black Leadership:
  • Jemele: “We can’t do this by ourselves… unless people that are non marginalized get on board, we’re just going to kind of stay in this perpetual cycle…” [42:10]

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8. Stephen A. Smith for President?!

[44:08–48:05]

• Candidacy Speculation: The table discusses sports commentator Stephen A. Smith’s public musings about a presidential run.
  • Stephen A. Smith: “Would you run as a Democrat? Yeah… I am not ruling it out.” [44:12]
• Mixed Reactions: Jemele Hill firmly opposes, noting the dangers of celebrity and political inexperience post-Trump.
  • Jemele: “It’s convinced a lot of people they have a shot… and I don’t think we need this idea of inexperience being touted as a good characteristic…” [44:30]
• Populist Messaging: Smith exhibits early politician talking points, but Hill and the hosts warn Democrats to take such celebrity threats seriously.

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9. Side Chat: AI Nightmares

[50:14–54:06]

• Anthropic AI & Dystopia: Segment reflects on a viral AI conference clip where an Anthropic executive admits an AI simulation “could blackmail the engineer” or “was ready to kill someone” to avoid shut-off.
  • Eugene: “I just think that we should be much more concerned than we are about AI.” [51:22]
• AI’s Societal Impact: Hosts discuss AI’s environmental and social risks, and the need for regulation and vigilance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Jessie Jackson’s Importance:
  • Eugene: “He changed American politics. He changed civil rights… He kept Dr. King's dream going and we have to keep his going.” [01:37]
• On the Olympics:
  • Eugene: “We ask [athletes] to shut the hell up. And I think that's crazy.” [08:54]
• On Celebrities Dodging Politics:
  • Simone: “An artist’s duty is to reflect the times.” —Nina Simone [20:46]
  • Eugene: “Saying nothing is a choice.” [22:54]
• On Obama’s Cool Factor:
  • Jemele Hill: “Part of the reason [Trump and MAGA] are so angry is because they’re just not cool.” [27:59]
• On Trump 2.0:
  • Jemele Hill: “If you can get people to be and stay in a constant state of fear, you can get them to capitulate to their own demise, which is what people are doing.” [32:26]
• On American Black Athletes’ Burden:
  • Jemele Hill: “You have a number of athletes who have made it clear that they support Donald Trump. Why don’t you go ask them why they still do?” [39:59]
• On Change & Coalitions:
  • Simone: “Anytime change has come about in this country, it's been…because there’s been first an intergenerational coalition.” [43:15]
• On Stephen A. Smith’s Presidential Hints:
  • Jamil Hill: “I think he's out of his depth. I don’t think we need...inexperience being touted as a good characteristic when it comes to running the presidency.” [44:30]
• On AI’s Dangers:
  • Simone: “The AI did threaten to kill.” — recounting the Anthropic story. [51:49]
  • Eugene: “I just think we should be much more concerned than we are about AI.” [51:22]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Start | End | |----------------------------------------|------------|------------| | Jesse Jackson Tribute & Legacy | 01:22 | 05:33 | | Olympics & Athlete Activism | 06:04 | 12:23 | | Cardi B, Kirk Franklin, Black Church | 12:25 | 17:29 | | Celebrities & Political Silence | 19:24 | 23:08 | | Jemele Hill Interview: Obama’s Cool | 25:05 | 29:32 | | Trump 2.0, Culture & Fear | 29:32 | 36:15 | | Athletes as Ambassadors & Race | 36:15 | 43:15 | | Stephen A. Smith for President?! | 44:08 | 48:05 | | AI Side Chat | 50:14 | 54:06 |

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Final Thoughts

This episode blends sharp cultural analysis with lived political realities, honoring legacy figures like Jesse Jackson, scrutinizing the manipulation of culture by those in power, and exposing the fraught position of athletes and artists in an increasingly politicized society. With humor, inside perspective, and deep context, “Clock It” offers both clarity and community for listeners who crave more than headlines—spotlighting the human stakes of American cultural and political battles.

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Transcript

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[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Okay, here we go. I am.

[Jamil Hill]

I am somebody.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Somebody. I am. I am somebody. Somebody.

[Eugene Daniels]

I may be poor, I may be.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Poor, but I am somebody. I am somebody. Greetings everyone. I'm Simone Sanders Townsend.

[Eugene Daniels]

And I'm Eugene Daniels. Welcome back to Clock it where we.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Open up our off air conversations and let you know what we see and hear in the news. We learned on Tuesday that the great news Reverend Jesse Jackson passed. Take a listen to the great Reverend Al Sharpton on Morning Joe earlier that morning talking about him.

[Eugene Daniels]

Jesse Jackson helped change American politics. He changed civil rights. He kept Dr. King's dream going and we have to keep his going. He really understood culture and the attention economy before anyone was using that term, which I think is one of the most interesting aspects of him. He was this insurgent young person. Even when he was in the civil rights movement. He was like 10, 12, 14 years younger than everybody else and he had a different way of thinking about and he kind of changed the way that they were doing in the civil rights movement.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You know, I mean, I think that's so right, Eugene. To be very clear. You know, I came up as a young black woman political strategist and the women that paved the way for me were a group of women known as the Colored Girls. The Colored Girls, they worked for Reverend Jesse Jackson. Many of them, they came up through the work of The Rainbow Coalition, they worked on his 88 campaign. When Jesse Jackson, he garnered a substantial number of delegates in that campaign. And because he won so many states and garnered so many delegates, he could make a lot of decisions and affect the process and the Democratic National Committee's process that we know about today that sometimes folks disagree with. Right. People got some issues with whatever. Jesse Jackson is the reason that proportional representation happens. Jesse Jackson is the reason people know the names of Leah Daughtry and Mignon Moore and Donna Brazile. Right. Without Jesse Jackson, there would be no Barack Obama. There would be no Kamala Harris. There definitely wouldn't be no little small Sanders towns.

[Eugene Daniels]

There wouldn't be Eugene Daniels either. Because when you saw that video of him telling little black kids, everybody, but specifically little black kids, that you are somebody, that's the first time that many black kids around the country were told that, because what they were actually told was the opposite of that. When he said, even if I'm on welfare, I am somebody, they were told the opposite of that, or over and over and over again. I think his legacy expands and spans past politics, past culture, past spirituality. Right. He was also one of the first people to take being like a reverend. Right. Being someone who, like, understood theology, a preacher, and understood the civil rights movement and then try to move that into presidential politics. Right. We haven't actually seen that again. Raphael Warnock may be run. He's in George. He might be the closest that we have.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Current pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church, the church that MLK pastored at and attended. Like, that is all the legacy of Jesse Jackson. And so when I heard about his passing, obviously Reverend Jackson had been sick for a while. He was at the last Democratic National Convention. I saw him there. I remember my first time meeting Reverend Jackson in Chicago at Rainbow Push Coalition headquarters. I've gone to the. To the Saturday meetings when I worked for Joe Biden. Heck, when I worked for Bernie Sanders, we all went to that meeting that Reverend Jackson had. They had a conference. And he has always had his finger on the pulse of what is going on. If Maxine Waters was in my ear right now, she'd be like, y' all better give Reverend Jackson his due. Maxie Waters, congresswoman out of California, has always been very clear that Jesse Jackson has not gotten the flowers that he deserves to have. He's an icon, and now he's an ancestor.

[Eugene Daniels]

Another really interesting thing is he showed the country and showed Democrats specifically that you could be a populist, you could care about racism, you can care about LGBTQ rights. Right. You can create a coalition, and you can still talk about kitchen table issues. And I think nowadays, so many politicians in the Democratic Party are like, oh, Lord, do we have to pick one? Jesse Jackson showed you. You do not have to pick one. You can have them all. Right? You can have all of those things at the same time.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And young people.

[Eugene Daniels]

And young people.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And you can dress regular. You don't have to put on a Persona. Reverend Jackson didn't put on a Persona. Every day he walked into the room as himself. And he encouraged a generation of not just operatives, but young people, activists, organizers.

[Eugene Daniels]

Business people, people in the media.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

People in the media to do that as well. And so, I mean, I think we'll be talking about his legacy for a very, very long time.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yeah.

[Eugene Daniels]

We are gonna get into a lot of things on this podcast today, including talking about President Barack Obama's first appearance since that racist AI video Trump posted. What's going on at the Olympics, and celebrities ducking politics.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yes. Also, we're gonna be joined by one of the best voices in sports, and I would also argue politics. Journalist. She's doing Jamel Hill. She is taking time from her new podcast, Flagrant and Funny, to talk about NBA All Star Weekend. Trump, one of her former co workers who's also teasing his own presidential run.

[Eugene Daniels]

That's a deep tease.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Well, though, let's get into it. Okay. Welcome to Clockett. Okay, Eugene, I want to talk about your favorite topic, the Olympics.

[Eugene Daniels]

See, they. I like the Olympics in the summer.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I don't.

[Eugene Daniels]

That is my favorite part of the Olympics. I'm very proud of all of these folks who are in the Olympics, representing our country right now, to be very clear about that. But they make fun of me because I'm not watching a lot of them.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yes. Eugene has very clear, mixed emotions about the Olympics.

[Eugene Daniels]

They're not mixed. They're very clear.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Okay, well, I am a patriotic American. Okay. And we have been watching. I've been watching the skeleton. This is where they skier. When you put your hands on it, you just go. I was like, I could do that. That could be me.

[Eugene Daniels]

No, you cannot. We are not letting you do that. Absolutely not.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Reverse bobsled is what I'm calling it. No. Okay. You probably saw that a skier said at a news conference. I'm sure you're not necessarily watching everything.

[Eugene Daniels]

But I'm getting all the things.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You're getting all the things. So a skier said at a news conference, actually, that he had mixed emotions about representing the United States right now. And the President of the United States, who did not come out and congratulate the Olympians, the Americans who are participating in the Olympics representing. Right. And I would argue neither did former President George W. Bush. Neither did, frankly, one of my former bosses, former President Biden, but President Obama did. So Trump didn't weigh in on the Americans going to the Olympics to represent our country until one of them was asked on the world stage about what is happening in our country. And the president called this skier a real loser. That's a quote.

[Eugene Daniels]

Okay.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You probably also saw that he sent his VP shout out to JD Vance to the opening ceremonies. Actually, a few people saw an interview with JD Vance that he gave to NBC after he left, which was really just his own spin on Shut up and Dribble. Take a listen.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes, you're gonna have some Olympic athletes who pop off about politics. I feel like that happens every Olympics. You're there to play a sport, and you're there to represent your country and hopefully win a medal. You're not there to pop off about politics. So when Olympic athletes enter the political arena, they should expect some pushback.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

To his point, yes, during every Olympics, some athletes do take the opportunity of being on the world stage to say something. This is actually quintessential, like Olympics 101. If something is going on in your.

[Eugene Daniels]

Country, you got to say something about it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You have to say something about it. You will be asked about it.

[Eugene Daniels]

You don't even have to talk about it, but you do have to do something. Right? There's the fists, right, that went up and they all had the black gloves on. Right. This is something that folks do. We ask so much of our athletes. We ask them to first spend all their time bashing their bodies. You talk to Olympians and how their bodies operate afterwards. It's not the same. It's not how human body is supposed to work. So they are always. We ask them to do that. We ask them to go overseas and represent us. And then we also ask them to shut the hell up. And I think that's crazy.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

We live in America.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

This is still the United States of America. The Constitution still matters. The First Amendment is still very present. And that's what you heard from some of the Olympic athletes that said that very thing. There's been a lot of discussion about whether or not politics and sports should mix. Obviously, we hear it in our own conversation. We see it on social media, but the fact is that they do.

[Eugene Daniels]

They are.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The fact is that they do. Politics and sports are intertwined. And, you know, what we heard some of the Olympic officials weigh in on this. Take a listen to this, guys. The athletes back in 2020, 2021 came up with saying we should not allow any messaging on the field of play, on the podium and in the Olympic Village. But they wanted other space, the mix zone, talking to the press, press conferences. As soon as you come off the field of play, that's there. He can do that. It's just the field of play. And as I said, it's because we had so many athletes come to us to say, how if you open that up, how do you keep me safe? How do you stop me from being used by others to send a message that I don't agree with? That's why these rules are in place. It's to ensure safety of everybody. That is the IOC chief, Christy Coventry. She's responding to this helmet. So there was a Ukrainian. First of all, shout out to the Ukrainians being at the Olympics. Their country has literally been under siege in a war since, like, 2022.

[Eugene Daniels]

It's been a very long time, a very long time. It's getting worse and worse.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The people have endured, yet they are at the Olympics in Milan, at the Winter Games, representing. Well, one of the athletes had a helmet that some people thought was a political message. And the athlete was very clear, while the Games are going on, he doesn't want people to forget about the plight of the people in his country.

[Eugene Daniels]

And because of their sacrifice, we are.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Able to be here today.

[Eugene Daniels]

We were able to be an Olympics.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

As a Ukrainian team.

[Eugene Daniels]

And I'm really thankful for that, honestly.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I'm not Ukrainian, but I support the cause. And I think it's very important that folks do not forget that the people of Ukraine are being trampled on, attempting to be trampled on and snuffed out by the Russians and their resilience, not for anything else, but their resilience is the reason why they are still standing and fighting to this day. And that matters.

[Eugene Daniels]

And what it shows you that these athletes are participating. And other countries have had this too, right? When there's been wars in their country, they still send athletes to represent them in the Olympic Games, wherever they might be. It shows you how much people understand about culture mattering to everything. Because if it didn't matter, right? If the sports didn't matter, if people weren't gonna be watching and thinking something differently about the conflict that's happening in said country, then they wouldn't send them, right? But they are sending those folks as a representation of, we are not gone. We are still here. Don't forget about us. Right? And I think there are a lot of people who we in our daily lives, especially, you know, when eggs are high and beef is up.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

How much beef is up? 15%.

[Eugene Daniels]

She talks about this a lot.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

15%. Y' all ain't been to the grocery store, Giant, Whole Foods, all of them. The Kroger beef is up.

[Eugene Daniels]

And so when that is the case, it's hard to remember, like all these foreign conflicts and how interconnected they all are. And this is the great thing about the Olympics, whether it's in the winter or the summer, is that it reminds us all how interconnected we are on the planet and how interconnected culture and politics are to each other. People who have issues with it, they don't understand athletes. Because if I'm gonna do all that, I'm gonna be able to say whatever I want.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Come on. Clock that. Clock that.

[Eugene Daniels]

You know, somebody else who's putting their huge platform to some good use is our girl, Cardi B.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Come on.

[Eugene Daniels]

Okay. I've always loved Cardi B. Now she went straight from Bad Bunnies casita at the Super Bowl.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yes, bad. But Cardi B, rapper extraordinaire. If you do not know who Cardi B is, just give her a little Google child.

[Eugene Daniels]

I assume if you, if you're listening to this podcast, you do know who Cardi B.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Well, but maybe they're home.

[Eugene Daniels]

I would hope. Maybe it's the introduction.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Maybe they are new to Cardi B. Okay, they might be new to Cardi. She has now kicked off a three month arena tour from coming from the Casita to the Bad Bunny Bowl.

[Eugene Daniels]

Right? Listen to this. Listen to what she said at her concert.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

If heists come in here, we gonna choke they asses. Bitch. I got some air mace in the back. They took my fans, bitch. Let's go. And then there was also another celeb who spoke out, but we, like a lot of other people, totally missed it. Maybe because he said something on the red carpet where things could be missed. Okay. I can't believe we missed this. Kirk Franklin was actually interviewed by Baller alert back on February 4th. And this is what he had to say. What is your beliefs on, like, what the church should be doing in regards to this climate?

[Eugene Daniels]

I think that we should be intentional about being very vocal about that. First of all, Jesus, mom and daddy were immigrants, so. But we need to be very. So we just need to be very careful to not be arrogant and prideful. And I think that we need to get in the streets and Be able.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

To.

[Eugene Daniels]

Save and love as many people as we can. And when I say save, I'm not talking about just their souls, I'm talking about their lives. We need to be feeding people, taking care of people, looking out for people.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

From Cardi to Kirk Franklin.

[Eugene Daniels]

I never thought I'd put them in the same sentence. However, since we're here, you know the interesting thing for both of them, right, Like Cardi B, because she's a female rapper and we are a terrible country that pits women against each other when they are doing the similar job. So Cardi B and Nicki Minaj have been pitted against each other this entire time.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I think the Cardi gang has won out.

[Eugene Daniels]

I think so. Because she's on tour. The other one is not.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The other one's on tour with Torning Point usa.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes, but that's not a tour.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Correct.

[Eugene Daniels]

So Nikki Minaj has taken this rightward turn, right? And despite what Donald Trump has wanted, he has not been able to make conservatism, right wing maganism a part of the actual mainstream culture. And so when you, what you see in Cardi B is the exact opposite of that. The exact opposite of Nicki Minaj going up and hanging out with Donald Trump. You actually see someone who is representing what the majority of Americans across the spectrum politically are feeling. Concerns about ice. Worried about ice, scared about the tactics of ICE in this country. I think that's interesting. Kirk Franklin. Now, I will say this. Everyone who has studied politics understands that the black church has always been political, period. My grandfather, who I never got to meet, was a Baptist preacher. He spent his whole career, basically after he became a preacher in South Carolina, trying to make sure that black people got the right to vote. Him and my grandmother. And so hearing Kirk Franklin say what he said, some people are like, oh, no, not the reverend, not the preacher talking. No, they always did this. This is exactly how they have operated for such a long time.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

This is the spirit of Jesse Jackson. That's the lineage from which Jesse Jackson comes from. You know, coming out of slavery.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes, it always goes back to slavery.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It always goes back to slavery. Unfortunately, coming out of slavery, the black churches were the only spaces, were the spaces that black people owned. So that is why the church started out as it had to be. Come on, watch night service. Anybody know what watch night service is? Okay, we're on New Year's Eve. You go to church and you wait for the new year to come in.

[Eugene Daniels]

That was my grandma called them the holiday Christians.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The holidays. Well, you know what? Whether they were hatched, smashed, or dispatched during the holidays. That's what. Shout out to Reverend Maurice Watson, okay? My forever pastor. That's what he used to say. But I mean, watch night service grew out of. They were literally people who. They were watching for the Emancipation Proclamation to come into effect. That's what watch night service was about. And so there's a direct line from the watch night services to the organizing that black churches did before we owned anything to what Kirk Franklin is saying. And there is a role for clergy to play. And it does feel like, especially nowadays, there is an outsized focus on evangelical white evangelical Christians. But there is a strong contingent. I mean, the head of the largest NAACP branch in the country is a Reverend Reverend Wendell in Detroit. Child. Okay, but I don't think we talk enough about the role that the black church has played and frankly should play it now.

[Eugene Daniels]

Cause I mean, if you read the Bible as.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Not that Trump Bible.

[Eugene Daniels]

No, the real one. The real one from the man in the Bible. It is very clear that we are supposed to be taking care of our neighbors. It is very clear that Jesus who was around here don't hang out.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Don't get me sarcastic.

[Eugene Daniels]

Jesus was not hanging out.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Jesus was hanging out with the prostitutes and the. Okay.

[Eugene Daniels]

And men in dresses. Okay? So let's be very clear. The people that Jesus was hanging out with.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

To be clear, everybody wore a dress back then.

[Eugene Daniels]

And when he talked about the folks who would inherit the kingdom of heaven, the first folks would be the poor. They would be the downtrodden, because the rich people weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing on earth. And so, like, whether or not you believe in religion or not, at the end of the day, it operates within our society. And when you watch the way that people bastardize and use it in our culture, that is becomes a problem. Now, there are a lot of other celebs, mainly Hollywood types with lots of checks that are coming their way who are ducking political talk before we go to them.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Did you know? Well, first of all, news flash, folks out there, the government is partially shut down right now. Okay? So if you are going to the airport, you might want to get there early. Why? Because dhs, the Department of Homeland Security, has been only partially funded. It is partially shut down over ice. So the fact that Cardi B is speaking up about this tsa, fema, the Coast Guard, the stuff y' all like.

[Eugene Daniels]

In the government, come on now, you need tsa, y' all like.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And I think it's a shame that the TSA Workers are continuously caught in the crosshairs here because we do need them. Hug a TSA worker next time you go to the airport.

[Eugene Daniels]

Ask em first.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Well, yes, consent is very important. Yes, but Cardi B got into a little back and forth with the Department of Homeland Security on the site for me, known as Twitter. And then when the government shutdown came, the partial government shutdown, okay, for dhs, she tweeted. She tweeted again, again. How about that?

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So I did not have Cardi B ice and DHS on my bingo card, but here we are.

[Eugene Daniels]

No, but we want Cardi on the show.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So Cardi, come on the show, Come talk to the show because we've called you.

[Eugene Daniels]

We'll come to you, we'll come to you. We'll go wherever you want. But the people that aren't being like Cardi B and they're saying quiet, or more importantly, dodging it real hard, they have all these explanations, excuses that some may say, I will argue as to why they have nothing to say about our politics. And to be clear, I believe, and I think you believe too, saying nothing is also a political choice.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Silence is a choice. Take a listen.

[Eugene Daniels]

I was wondering if you guys consider your art political. And if so, how can movies these days help fight the rise of fascism in Europe, in America?

[Jamil Hill]

Well, I think we live in a strangely algorithmic and divided world right now. And so as artists, I'm always interested.

[Eugene Daniels]

In doing things that are apolitical because.

[Jamil Hill]

We'Re all, as humans wanting to connect in some way.

[Eugene Daniels]

That's why we experience things together.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The headlines coming out of this were insane. One of the headlines from Deadline, sonny Dancer, Actor Neil Patrick Harris, Latest Star to Avoid Political Talk at Berlin Film Festival. Neil Patrick Harris has a Husband. Which, frankly, a political act happened so that Neil Patrick Harris could have a husband. I'm an ally. Okay, Clark. Okay. Yes, but I just.

[Eugene Daniels]

She loves the Gates.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Nina Simone once said, the great Nina Simone said, it is an artist's duty to reflect the times. And art, music, movies. It is about expression. I mean, you had Rupert Griff.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah. Ron Weasley. Honey, Ron Weasley.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Carter, have you ever considered commenting about the rise of fascism in Great Britain that's currently happening?

[Eugene Daniels]

Well, obviously, I'm against it, but.

[Jamil Hill]

No, I mean, I choose my moments to speak.

[Eugene Daniels]

But I think, yeah, it's obviously hugely relevant now. Yeah, I think, yeah, you'll hear from me. Rod Weasley did say, well, obviously I'm against it. He said, I'm not pro fascism. I don't have much to say. But I know I don't like fascism. I also think the you'll hear it for me was interesting. You know what that told me, Simone, is that some of these folks are so scared of being canceled, maybe that they're like, you'll hear from me after I talk to my PR people. We will send out a statement on Instagram. Right. Like I think.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

But that's an indictment of the PR people, because as a former comms person, in this political climate, and if you have an American movie, any kind of movie with any kind of Americans anywhere in it, maybe not even Americans. The Brits, child, everybody. You should be prepared for your client to be asked about the Epstein files. You should be prepared for your client to be asked about the President of the United States. And you need to be prepared for your client to be asked about politics writ large and have an answer. And the fact that people think that they can get up on a national and international stage and just demure and dodge as though politics doesn't have anything to do with our everyday lives. I'm here to tell you, y' all don't want to be partisan, but everything is, in fact political.

[Eugene Daniels]

And I think the thing that's really interesting, and I said it when we led into it, saying nothing is a choice. So NPH with this Neil Patrick Harris. Neil Patrick Harris. Yeah. Sorry for the folks that don't know algorithmic, sir, that is not what the person asked you whatsoever they asked you.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

We live in a divided world. So as artists, I'm always interested in doing things that are apolitical.

[Eugene Daniels]

That's crazy.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

That existence is political, Neil.

[Eugene Daniels]

But as a gay man, as a gay man with children, because what do people say about gay people with children? What do they say on the right? All types of stuff. I ain't gonna say it because this is a podcast for families, but y'.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

All know family show. Okay.

[Eugene Daniels]

I was leaning at the end of the day.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Let's take a quick break. Eugene.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah. So I can check my blood pressure.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yeah, check your blood pressure. You need to. I'm gonna get you. Yeah, I'm bring the machine out. When we come back, we are gonna be joined by journalist extraordinaire, Jamil Hill. Don't you go away.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Eugene Daniels]

Y' all know her. Jamil Hill has written for newspapers in Detroit, Orlando and Raleigh. She's reported for ESPN, the Ringer and and co hosts the SportsCenter today. She's a contributing writer for the Atlantic and co hosts a podcast with fellow reporter Carrie Champion where they cover the best sports, women's sports Jamil Hill welcome to the group chat.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Greetings, Jam.

[Jamil Hill]

What's up, Jamil?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

What does this shirt say?

[Jamil Hill]

It says Black Girl Vitamins. I'm coming off of NBA All Star Weekend, which is why my voice sounds like this. And I'm on a black podcast. I figured I would support a black business in the podcast.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Come on. Black Girl Vitamins okay, you mentioned you are at All Star. Eugene and I were not at All Star, but we did watch on tv the Obamas were at All Star. We just want to play a little sound of President Obama. The forever first lady Michelle Obama at allstar Weekend. And then we want to get into a chat about it on the other side. Take a list like this. Intensity Early Jokic got the deflection out of bounds, right?

[Eugene Daniels]

Look at Barack.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Mr. President Barack Obama. He's even cooler when the ball's coming at him.

[Commercial Announcer]

No problem.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I Can hear the second announcement getting dapped up. Here's the thing about this. Eugene and I were talking earlier, and Donald Trump wants what Obama has in terms of this cultural cachet. When he goes to the games, like the NFL games, everywhere except the ufc, he is in a box because he can't be on the floor like that. I'm wondering your take on as somebody that was in the room who saw it live, just a juxtaposition between these two presidents.

[Jamil Hill]

Well, you know, the few times I've been able to meet Obama, it was when he was still in office, and it was very clear that Obama's like a real sports fan and a very big basketball fan. And his stress relief was actually watching sports like he didn't watch. I mean, I'm sure he was kept abreast about what was happening on CNN and MSNBC and a lot of the other news stations, but his downtime, a lot was spent watching espn, which, you know, was how he knew who I was. And I was floored by this. Like, you know who I am.

[Eugene Daniels]

Ma', am, you're a very crazy.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Please.

[Jamil Hill]

You're making me.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Please. Everybody knows who you are.

[Jamil Hill]

You gotta die with this. Still, there's a certain level of fame you think you have, and then when the president of the United States is like, yeah, I know who you are, that's a different level. Okay. And so he's always had this love affair with basketball, and he has a very good relationship with a lot of NBA players. LeBron, Steph Curry. And a few years ago, when the players did a work stoppage after Jacob Blake was shot, Obama was one of the people they consulted and talked to about how they should proceed, because many of them didn't want to finish the season. They wanted to make a big statement. And he was one of the consiglieres that was in their ear. So with this league, he has a very good and warm relationship now.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It's authentic.

[Jamil Hill]

It's authentic. Very much so. I've said this before. When it comes to MAGA and even to Donald Trump, a lot of people in maga, a lot of his administration, part of the reason they're so angry is because they're just not cool. And they're not cool, and they're not accepted in certain places where cool people are. Donald Trump is not someone who strikes me very much as a people person. Yes, he has friends, but Obama and Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, you want to hang out with them. You want to, like, dang, I want to go have a beer with Barack. I Want to go kick it with Barack. He has that kind of energy, and Donald Trump doesn't have that energy. And so Barack Obama could have very easily have been in a suite, but that would have been inauthentic to who he is, because he truly is a man of the people. And the reception that they both get wherever they go, the warmth, the love, it doesn't matter if they're in the United States or if they're abroad, or even if they're in conservative circles, there is a level of respect that people have for them, and that drives Donald Trump absolutely crazy. Because they're cool, they're hip, they're welcome every place, from the NBA All Star Game to the Academy Awards, it doesn't matter. And part of Donald Trump's present anger is the fact he's not welcome there. People, they don't think he's cool and they don't think maga's cool. Like, that's why they can only get people like Kid Rock to perform and a washed up Nicki Minaj. That's why. Because nobody thinks they're actually fun. So it is what it is.

[Eugene Daniels]

You know, this is so interesting because what you're talking about there about Donald Trump is the reason we started this podcast. We're talking about the fact that Donald Trump has spent his entire life trying to be cool, trying to be in with the cool crowds. When he was, you know, growing up, he was a borough kid and he wanted to be seen as a Manhattan person, right? He did tv a large part of that one because he was in bankruptcy. So there was that. He had to make sure that, you know, he had to make some money.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

He had to pay the bills.

[Eugene Daniels]

He had to pay a lot of bills. Also, most importantly, he understands that being a part of culture is a much better way to be seen as cool. And it's the way how he operates as he's President of the United States. And when you're watching that, right, because that's like the perfect intersection of, like, all of your interests, right? Which is like how people interact in the culture and how they then utilize that to operate within politics and with policy. As you look at what we're a year and two months, month and a.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Half into, not as long as it feels.

[Commercial Announcer]

Okay.

[Eugene Daniels]

Trump 2.0.

[Jamil Hill]

I know, right?

[Eugene Daniels]

So with that in mind, how are you taking in Trump 2.0 and how he's kind of sped up his kind of taking over the culture?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Look at Jamel's face.

[Jamil Hill]

She was like, look, I think as many people predicted we knew that this version of Trump would be much more dangerous than the first version that we saw. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that he had people around him in the first term that actually believed a little bit in political decorum and actually believed in governance a little bit. You know, like there was a certain function in the way government is supposed to operate. And they kind of believed in the protocols. Even if their ideology was not exactly in line with mine, they at least believed in the operation and the protocols. There was a layer of respect there that is gone now. He ignores court orders, he does whatever he wants, and all he has is people around him who are, yes, men and women, capitulators, people willingly bending the knee. So I think this version is a lot scarier. And it's why, as when you mentioned how long he's been president, you could have put two more digits on that and I would have been like, yep, it's been that long. Because that is the way that it's felt for a lot of people that like, wow, we have three more years of this. Or as I like to say, three more years of this. We hope.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Why you say we hope? Because he's.

[Jamil Hill]

Well, yeah, because we see what the game plan is to one, undermine the credibility of our elections and get people thinking there's widespread fraud that occurs and we know that there isn't. And it's funny, cuz the little bit of fraud that does occur tends to be. Republicans clock it, you know, so we know all of these things. But the one thing about him, and which also makes him dangerous is that he understands media and he understands the weak and blind spots of people. And if you can get the people to be and stay in a constant state of fear, you can get them to capitulate to their own demise, which is what people are doing. Is that, yes, on the face of it, it sounds really benign to say, well, everybody should have their when they vote. You have to have your ID to buy liquor, you have to have your ID to board a plane. So what's so different about this? And they don't understand exactly what they're ushering in or nor do they understand how very safe our elections are. And his intention and his administration's intention is to disrupt that safety and that trust and then present himself as the savior and as someone who has the remedies and all while you are again ushering in your own demise.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I mean, it's so true. And I do think a lot of people do not understand how the dots are connected. Right. Like, they see the racist meme that he put out in that video that depicted the Obamas as apes, as his press secretary said from the Lion King, even though there's not one ape in the Lion King, it's a baboon.

[Eugene Daniels]

Rafiki.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Rafiki. There's just one by himself. Come on now. But I think that there's an intentionality to make it. To dumb it down, for lack of a better term, to make it feel benign, to make it feel that anybody that is raising an alarm about the voter suppression bill that is the SAVE act, as you just referenced, they're being ridiculous and unreasonable. We're being the normal ones. And if people are not vigilant, if they don't connect the dots, they will fall into that.

[Jamil Hill]

It's a diabolical strategy, and actually it's a very intelligent one. If it weren't, it would be. I mean, it's really masterful. If it wasn't so diabolical. But it's true. It's just. I think the intention, and I think Steve Bennett has talked about this, is that their intention was to flood the zone. So right now, people are feeling very overwhelmed by the news because it's not every day. It's like literally every 15 minutes. We are.

[Eugene Daniels]

Our shows are constantly changing.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Who? You tell her I got a show at 7pm and it's straight. Yes.

[Jamil Hill]

And it's just like, hey, dawg, can you just give us a break for once? You know what I'm saying? It's like, I wake up this morning, like a lot of people very saddened about the passing of Reverend Jesse Jackson. One of the first things I see is Donald Trump's tribute, I guess you could call it, where he made sure to make it all about himself and naturally take a cheap shot at Obama. And so that is the world that we're living in. And my fear is that we've normalized all the things that you've talked about. And if people have this sort of naive idea that we're just gonna go back to what it used to be, though I would contend going back to what it used to be also isn't an option. We need to be beyond even that. But if people think that this is just gonna go away once Donald Trump is no longer president, I think they're really fooling themselves. And you mentioned the Olympic athletes. When you go in before the world stage and you're before all these international reporters, all they wanna ask you about is what's up with ice? Or what's up with your president or what's happening in America. And that's embarrassing, you know? And it's like, if you go to the club and one of your homegirls or one of your homeboys is the real drunk one, and then next time you go out, they're like, hey, yo, what's up with your girl?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I'm like, why? She with y' all today? She with y' all today.

[Eugene Daniels]

It's like, no, we left our home, right?

[Jamil Hill]

It's like, you have to answer for the behavior of other people is an unfair position to put them in. But nevertheless, these athletes have been quite courageous in speaking out about how they don't feel very comfortable representing the United States, even though they love their country.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And.

[Jamil Hill]

And they're trying to show what it really is supposed to represent. And what they get for that is Donald Trump attacking them. And it's just unfortunate that we have reached this point. And I know all of us are looking for, where's the bottom? Where there is no bottom. And I hate to be the pessimist, if we're thinking there's gonna be one magical event that reverses all this or people come to their senses, it's not happening. This is the world permanently that we have to navigate.

[Eugene Daniels]

One of the things that is bouncing in my head as you're talking about these Olympic athletes and athletes in general, right, Is that, as James Baldwin said, I love my country so much, I will then criticize her when I want to. And I think when you talk about these athletes, the athletes are always the best of the best, right? And not just the best in their sports. They're the best we have to offer to the world, right? They are young people who are from around the country who've honed their crown. Who've honed their crown. They have spent their whole lives focused, singularly, almost, on this one thing and this one moment, right, where they're talking about the winter or the summer Olympics. So when you, as an expert on kind of like athletes, as ambassadors to the rest of the world about who we are as a country, what our culture is like, what our politics is like, how do you suggest that they maneuver through this, right? Because if they speak out, they might get a target on their back. If they don't speak out, everybody gonna be on the Internet being like, well, where the hell were you when people were shooting folks? When ice was shooting people in the street?

[Jamil Hill]

Yeah, it is. It's a difficult position to be in. But to be honest, as somebody who travels abroad pretty frequently, and for my Birthday. I spent a month in Africa. So I'm going around to Cape Town and Zanzibar, Mauritius, Ethiopia, all different places. Always asked about Trump, and it's like, okay. And I think how. Granted, they're in a much bigger stage than I am, but it's sort of. When people ask me abroad about what. What the hell is going on in America and how did this happen? I'm just like, hey, dawg, I don't.

[Eugene Daniels]

Know what to tell you. Like, I didn't do it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I dmr part. It wasn't me. It wasn't me.

[Jamil Hill]

For the rest of them, you know, that's, like, what they was doing. And so for the athletes that are in this conundrum of whether to speak out or even any celebrities, because you get a bunch of people that say, nobody cares what a celebrity thinks. Nobody cares what an athlete thinks. Well, that's not necessarily true because.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah, because every time they talk, everyone talks about it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

So they.

[Jamil Hill]

Everybody talks about it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I mean, LeBron got a question during the All Star Game about Israel.

[Jamil Hill]

Yeah, about Israel.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

People didn't like his answer. From John 14 In Israel, for all the Israeli fans, what message would you like to send?

[Eugene Daniels]

I mean, if. If I have fans over there, I've never been there. If I have fans over there, then, you know, I hope you have been following my career. I hope I inspire people over there to not only want to be great in sports, but I want you to be better in. In general, in life. So hopefully someday I can make it over there. Like I said, I've never been over there, but I've heard nothing but great things. And I appreciate the question.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

There were some people that were critical about what he said and others that said he didn't say enough. There were some people that said, well, maybe this is the point. You should shut up and drill.

[Jamil Hill]

My only complaint is that the media often. And I'm gonna just relegate this to the American media, whenever there's a problem or a social justice issue that pops up, they go running to the black athletes and ask them, what do you think about it? As if white people don't live here, too. And my thing is, especially when it comes to discussing, say, Trump or MAGA or any of these, you know, or ice or whatever, you have a number of athletes who have made it clear that they support Donald Trump. Why don't you go ask them why they still do? Instead of asking black athletes all the time to have something profound to say, and frankly, you're putting them in the position where they have to risk something, but the white athletes don't. It's like they live here, too. They're seeing the same things that we're seeing. So how come it's not incumbent or upon them to speak out? I mean, they're citizens, right?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Correct.

[Jamil Hill]

And especially if they've expressed that they are politically aligned with Donald Trump during a time where ICE could not be more unpopular. Go ask Nick Bosa why he supports Donald Trump. Go ask him. Go ask Dana White that. Go ask these UFC fighters that.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The UFC fighters that want to be on the White House line. They have to answer for their association.

[Eugene Daniels]

But no one's going to make sense.

[Jamil Hill]

Ask them to defend their position.

[Eugene Daniels]

And this is the thing, Jamil, is I want you to answer your question. It has always been in the DNA of black people in this country to push the country forward. And I think that, like, that pressure gets put on you from a little kid, Right. Like, you think about when you're sitting at home talking to your family members, they not talking to you about, you know, random stuff. They talk. It is heavy, Right. They talked about how to interact with the police and how you should expect the police to interact with you. They talk to you about our civil rights leaders and the legacy they leave and then saying, essentially, at the end of the day, all of us have a duty to then pick up the mantle after they become ancestors or they start to move on. Right. And so these athletes have that pressure on them. It might be unfair, Right. Like, I think it probably is unfair to think that all the black athletes to have something to say about Donald Trump, especially because at the end of the day, he holds his greatest ire for black people, whether they're athletes or reporters or members of Congress. But does that not come with the job?

[Jamil Hill]

You're right in the sense that it is built into our DNA because as being the marginalized group, as being the one that often is under the boot of oppression, then naturally we know our oppressors in a way that they don't even know themselves. That is part of the responsibility that we all shoulder, that we are literally, we come out the womb with this. But that being said, when you think about the magnitude of racism, the magnitude of white supremacy, we can't do this by ourselves. And so what I have often, or what I have started to talk about a lot more in the past few years, particularly since it was the majority of white voters who put Donald Trump into the office, and now that there's chaos, some of the voting body or the populace in general, is looking at black people like, what you gonna do? No, we did what we were supposed to do. Y' all didn't. And so it shows that even within our own ancestral superpowers, there are limits. We're not going to be able to move the country forward permanently unless people that are non marginalized get on board. Unless they are in lockstep, we're not going to be able to do it. And that doesn't. I don't say that to be pessimistic. I say that to be realistic. Is that we have carried this thing as far as we can carry it. If we don't get any help, then we're just gonna kind of stay in this perpetual cycle of three steps forward, four steps back, two steps forward, three steps back. Like it's gonna always be that inertia. And so that's why I often say that we need to make the others more responsible for the choices and the things that have happened in this country.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Well, look, I think it is always anytime change has come about this country, it has been because there has been first an intergenerational coalition, but it has been black people, white people, Asian American, Pacific Islander folks, indigenous people, Latinos, Hispanics who have come together and stood up together. Talk about the Civil Rights movement. There were Jewish Americans who went down into the south and stood with black people and died. And those kinds of things turned the tide. And I think that when I think about Renee Goode and Alex Preddy, two people who have lost their lives, white Americans in broad dayl okay. When they are killing white women 20 minutes from downtown and a white man who's a gun owner, I think that some other people who haven't been perked up and clocked in are now like, okay, well, what can we do? We gotta go. But I gotta know what you think about Stephen A. Smith talking about he running for president. You know what?

[Eugene Daniels]

Let's play the Stephen A. Smith.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Smith.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah, let's play the Stephen A. Smith.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Because you gotta wait till the President.

[Eugene Daniels]

Hear what he said.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Could you run for president?

[Eugene Daniels]

It's possible. Would you run as a Democrat? Yeah. Because I couldn't see myself running as a member of the GOP. I will make a decision in early 2027, but I am not ruling it out.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

What do you think about this?

[Jamil Hill]

Okay, so I did a. I did a deep breath. Here's the thing. One of the unfortunate remnants or trickle down effects from the Donald Trump presidency is that it's convinced a lot of people that they can. They have a shot all Right. And would I vote for Stephen A. Smith? No, I would not. Because I frankly don't think. I think he's out of his depth. And I don't think we need this idea of inexperience being touted as a good characteristic when it comes to running the presidency. I don't think is good. I think we need to move away from this idea of celebrity and people from television coming on and being in the White House. That being said, Stephen A. Is going to check a lot of boxes. And if I'm the Democrats and I see this bubbling, I put an end to this right now.

[Eugene Daniels]

How so?

[Jamil Hill]

Stephen A. Is on TV five days a week.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yes. And people know him.

[Jamil Hill]

And people know him.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

People know him.

[Jamil Hill]

Exactly.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

There are voters who feel there are people out there in the country that will say, you know what? I like what Stephen A. Has to say. I mean, that's the thing about this democracy. The voters get to choose at the end of the day.

[Jamil Hill]

And he understands messaging. He could keep it simple. He also, with his ability, he's a showman. Like, he understands how to present on tv, he understands showmanship. He could certainly debate. So he checks a lot of the boxes that theoretically would make a candidacy successful. And when. This is how I know that he's planning to really do this. He was asked, was he worried about racism playing a role in his potential pursuit of a presidential run.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And.

[Jamil Hill]

And he said, no.

[Eugene Daniels]

I know it exists. I know that you can't escape it, but I do not believe it is as prevalent as some on the left would like us to believe. I do believe a vast majority of Americans judge you on the content of your individual character rather than the color of your skin.

[Jamil Hill]

And then he went on to say, like, I think people in this country, they care more about the economy than they do about race, and that's not gonna be an issue.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Sounded very Obama esque, child. And I only say that as like, clarify.

[Jamil Hill]

And I was like, we just saw Obama wore a tan suit and almost broke the brains of people.

[Eugene Daniels]

Okay?

[Jamil Hill]

And so we know that is not true. I mean, the big reason why we even are dealing with Donald Trump is because of bigotry and white supremacy. So that answer alone let me know he gonna do this.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yo, he's talking like a politician. Exactly.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

He talking just like a politician to those politician talking points.

[Eugene Daniels]

Exactly.

[Jamil Hill]

Even if you're a mild sort of like a centrist Democrat. And like, on the conservative end, you hear his messaging of like, more police, you know, worried about the economy. Like, these are all very simple populist messages that will resonate. So again, if I'm the Democrats, given his level of celebrity, his access to media, the fact that he knows media and understands how to manipulate media, you nip this in the bud right?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Now, I would just note the only way to nip it in the bud is to send some people that Stephen A. Smith will listen to to encourage him not to pursue this.

[Eugene Daniels]

Maybe that's Jamil, because I don't think that's gonna work.

[Jamil Hill]

I'm be 100% honest, Simone. I don't think that's gonna work.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And I agree with you. So I think they gird their loins come 2027. Cause that's when people really start announcing their candidacy. We're gonna see a range of people from your Gavin Newsoms potentially to your Stephen A. Smiths. And this is why the voters gotta upskill themselves. People need to be tapped in and paying attention. Because the former strategist in me is like, ooh, baby, don't do it. We go all day on this.

[Eugene Daniels]

And I also just wanna remind all black people that wanna run for president. I'm not black. I'm O.J. well, okay. Because you are black. And they are gonna make it very clear that you know that whether you're running in the Democratic primary or the Republican primary. Jamil Hill, thank you so much for coming to the group chat. We appreciate it.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

We love you. It's good to see you.

[Jamil Hill]

Good to see you too. Thank you guys.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Absolutely appreciate you.

[Eugene Daniels]

We're gonna take a break and on the other side of that, we're gonna start a little side chat. So y' all stay tuned.

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[Simone Sanders Townsend]

We've got you covered.

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[Simone Sanders Townsend]

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[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Welcome to the portion of the show we call the side chat. Okay. Where it's just us girls now. Eugene, you were texting me this week. Just tell the people.

[Eugene Daniels]

So. So I am on the site formerly known as Twitter and I'm looking and I see a clip that scares the hell out of me. Let's play that sound and then I'll tell y' all why I was scared of what I texted Ms. Simone.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

If you tell the model, it's going to be shut off, for example, it has extreme reactions, so it will, you know.

[Jamil Hill]

Yeah.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

We've published research saying it could. It could take. It could blackmail the engineer that's going to shut it off if given the opportunity to do so, et cetera.

[Eugene Daniels]

It was ready to kill someone, wasn't it?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I'm not sure if it was Claude.

[Eugene Daniels]

Or someone else, but yes.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Okay, that was a session from on the Road to Artificial General Intelligence and the Implications for All Societies with Anthropic AI.

[Eugene Daniels]

The implications are terrifying.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Anthropic is the company that owns Claude. That makes Claude. And that was an answer on a panel at the Sydney dialogue in 2025.

[Eugene Daniels]

And this is the UK policy chief at Anthropic. I don't know why this came back around.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Shout out to Dai.

[Eugene Daniels]

This woman said that it was ready to kill someone, it being the AI in order to make sure it wasn't deleted. I just think that we should be much more concerned than we are about AI. And I see y' all you on Facebook using the AI to make you give you a little graphic, a little cartoon that's real cute. Till he has your face.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

My mom.

[Eugene Daniels]

Your face is doing something else.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You're telling her to stop, but AI is everywhere. Okay, so first let me just say no. Yes. The AI did threaten to kill.

[Eugene Daniels]

I love you, Siri.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Eugene. Eugene said that.

[Eugene Daniels]

Don't kill me, Siri.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

He, every time he asked Siri for, he says, he tells Siri, thank you. Because he doesn't want Siri to. He wants the AI machines to know that he is respectful and love when.

[Eugene Daniels]

They take over and they lock us all up, I just wanna be in the highfalutin lockup.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Shout out to every millennial that saw Smart House as a child. Okay. I was telling my stepson about it the other day. I said, you need to see Smart House.

[Eugene Daniels]

He does need to see it. Okay, Disney, bring it back.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Can we have a word with the former Bob Iger? I guess he's not in charge anymore. Okay, but the thing about what Anthropic is talking about and AI, first of all, I understand if people have what Daisy McGregor, the UK policy chief at Anthropic was talking about was a simulation that they did before they put this recent version of in 2025 out. They run it through these simulations and these testing grounds. And in the testing, they found that the AI was ready to protect itself by all means and even blackmail people. And so they fixed it.

[Eugene Daniels]

Or kill.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Or kill. So they say they fixed it. But I do think it is a note that the people in charge of the AI, the companies creating it, are scared by, but their commitment to ensuring safety matters. So I do think the AI companies need to be a little regulated.

[Eugene Daniels]

I think the people that have been in the AI companies and working on AI who have left and said, y' all not scared enough are the people I'm listening to. Cause I am terrified. This one over here is not as serious.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You need to learn how to use it. Okay. You need to be using Claw. All I do is Siri Gemini. You need to familiarize yourself.

[Eugene Daniels]

No, I don't know none of them people. I know my little British man, Siri. I changed him. You could change your Siri voice. My Siri sound like a black one. That's British.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Oh, a black British man.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah, a little bit of history as a black woman. See, there we go.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Representation, man.

[Eugene Daniels]

Exactly. Change it to who you want to talk to.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

There is a whole thing with these AI with AI about the data centers and how they are encroaching on. It's like the new environmental racism, if you will, because they're putting them in black and brown and low income, low income communities. And these communities are fighting back because they're taking a lot of power. They're taking a lot of water supply like it's crazy. So every time you selling your chatgpt or your siri. Thank you. Somebody's data center is computing it out.

[Eugene Daniels]

And it's problematic and every time you ask it to look up something, then you can look up yourself. You're doing the same thing. It's a problem if you don't use it. Use it wisely.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Eugene. Well, this has been another lovely group chat conversation. We made it to week two. Will there be a week two?

[Eugene Daniels]

Will we get canceled?

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

No.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes. We love that.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

We love that we did not get canceled. We are actually here strong and we'll be back next week. If you like what you heard, please rate us five stars and leave a review. The ratings are actually very important. Followed us thank you for following. Thank you for downloading. Please rate us wherever you get your podcast, rate us high.

[Eugene Daniels]

If you gonna rate us low, don't. Thanks so much for listening to Clockett. You can subscribe to MSNow Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNow podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content. All episodes of Clock it are also available on YouTube. Visit Ms. Now Clockett to watch Clock.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It is produced by Franny Kelly. Our associate producer is Iggy Monda. Additional production support from Brittany Ruff, Malcolm Thomas, Adrianna Thomas, Elaysah Gibbs Jones and Colette Holcomb.

[Eugene Daniels]

Our director is Renee Ambro and Lou Visconti and Emily Gaines are our control room operators. Our stage manager is Brian Gessner. Our lighting director is John Schertler and our Robocam operator is Taylor Hickman. Duriki Rice is our video operator. Michael Connell is our tech operator and Paul Driscoll is our tech production operator. Many thanks to Alana Lee. Our audio engineers are Greg Debbins II Hazik, Ben Ahmed Fared and Matt Bauer.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Katie Lau is the senior manager of audio production. Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNow Audio and Madeline Herringer is senior vice president in Charlotte of audio, digital and long form.

[Eugene Daniels]

Our theme music is by Jesse McGinty.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

And we're your hosts, Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels.

[Eugene Daniels]

See you next week.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

See you next week.

[Eugene Daniels]

See you next week. See you next week.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Oh, I'm gonna go quicker. I'm gonna go quicker. Okay, See you next week. It's so amazing.

[Eugene Daniels]

Hometown. The devil is busy, honey.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Try angel stuff for your tushy. It's made by angels, soft and strong.

[Jamil Hill]

Budget friendly. The choice is simple. A roll that feels like paradise and always at a heavenly prize angel song.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Angel song Soft and strong so it pick up a pack today angel soft Soft and strong.