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Clock It with Symone & Eugene
Tell Us What You Really Think, Rahm Emanuel
00:44:39
Jen Psaki and Rahm Emanuel get real about what needs to change in the Democratic Party in order to win again.
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- [00:02]
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- [01:12]
Jen Psaki
Hey, it's Jen Psaki. So as I was making a list of people who would tell me what they thought without sugarcoating it or holding back, Rahm Emanuel was at the top of my list. I worked for him in 2006 when he was chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee and Democrats won back the House and again when he was the first Chief of Staff in the Obama White House. And politics has definitely changed since then, but his aggressive and tough approach to calling it like he sees it hasn't changed a bit. And frankly, maybe the Democrats need a bit more of that as they look to winning again.
- [01:44]
Rahm Emanuel
Democrats, we love people to know that we're smart and that we got our PhD and here we're ready to show you our thesis and it comes across. Not only that it is a self enclosed conversation, it is tremendously dismissive of them, the audience. We're actually talking to ourselves about how important, how smart we are, rather than how to make sure that they understand we're more interested in the sound of our own voice.
- [02:07]
Jen Psaki
Yep, that's Rahm Emanuel, former Chief of Staff to President Obama, former Chicago Mayor, and just back from his latest post as the Ambassador to Japan. Rahm has never been one to shy away from saying exactly what he thinks or shy away from a fight. And he's definitely got some thoughts. Welcome. This is the blueprint with Jen Psaki. It's pretty obvious that that's me for this episode. I called up Rahm Emanuel two weeks after the inauguration to talk with him about how you find winning candidates, why elected officials shouldn't be so afraid to piss some People off and which rising stars in the party to keep an eye out for. Rahm Emanuel. It's good to see you.
- [02:52]
Rahm Emanuel
Good to see you.
- [02:53]
Jen Psaki
Thank you for taking the time. I first met you back in 2005. You may or may not remember this. I mean, the first time I met you, actually, I came up to you. I introduced myself. I was nervous and I said, so nice to meet you, Mr. Chairman. And you said, this is the closest we're ever gonna get. Good luck. That didn't end up being the case. Here we are 20 years later.
- [03:12]
Rahm Emanuel
I wish I could argue that that's not true. It sounds too true to be true.
- [03:16]
Jen Psaki
Oh, yeah. Well, I did travel with you around the country, but had a role in setting me up with my husband. Setting me up, prompting us to get together. That is also a truth.
- [03:28]
Rahm Emanuel
I kicked him off as we would travel, him, Sarah Feinberg and myself. And he would constantly be talking about, I don't know how to ask her. I said, okay, you're off. You're not traveling until this gets figured out because you cannot let this window pass. I said, no more fundraising, no more travel. And it was actually, if I'm remembering, Jen, I think it was a party. And whether he was going to ask you to go to that party that weekend. Oh, I think there's a very specific.
- [03:55]
Jen Psaki
I don't even remember that level of detail, but.
- [03:58]
Rahm Emanuel
Yeah, well, don't tell Amy that I actually know more detail about your marriage than ours.
- [04:02]
Jen Psaki
Well, you have a cupid in you. People don't all know this about now. And we've been married for 15 years almost. Can you believe that? It's a little crazy.
- [04:10]
Rahm Emanuel
I'm one for one unsuccessful fixing up.
- [04:12]
Jen Psaki
Well, good. Good for you. You got to keep at it.
- [04:14]
Rahm Emanuel
No, I'm retire at batting a thousand.
- [04:16]
Jen Psaki
Okay, fair enough. So I met you when you were the DCCC chair, but you've had so many jobs in politics. I mean, before that you had high level jobs in the Clinton administration.
- [04:25]
Rahm Emanuel
But let's be clear, none of them match up with being a matchmaker.
- [04:28]
Jen Psaki
Well, obviously. And all of the life advice you've given me over the years, which I want to talk about too.
- [04:33]
Rahm Emanuel
Yeah, I know we want to get to the show, but I wanted to say there's one fan that I got to always make sure is happy, and that's your mother.
- [04:41]
Jen Psaki
Oh, my mother. Of course she's going to listen to this episode, even if she doesn't listen to all the other ones, you know, because you, when you came into the White House dining room when my mom was there with five of her friends. She still talks about that. That was the highlight.
- [04:55]
Rahm Emanuel
I'll give you another detail you forgot. Your mother used to text you or email you immediately after a Sunday show appearance and give a rundown of what she liked or disliked. It was harsher judgment for me than my own mother, who I could ignore.
- [05:09]
Jen Psaki
Well, you better be interesting in this podcast because she's going to be texting me about how you do. So you kind of. You've had all these jobs. I mean, you were the chief of staff in the White House, the DCCC chair, the mayor of Chicago, ambassador to Japan. But you're very much re engaged in the political conversation right now. Why you could just sit back and not engage at all?
- [05:29]
Rahm Emanuel
Because I think. Well, first of all, that's not in my Jewish neurotic psyche self.
- [05:33]
Jen Psaki
I know that about you.
- [05:34]
Rahm Emanuel
Yeah. Second is I think we're at a critical point as a country. I think we've been at a critical point for a long time. And this is not the time to sit on the sidelines. There's too much at stake.
- [05:45]
Jen Psaki
One of the periods of time I've been thinking about in politics as it relates to this moment is that period of time after 2004, right, when John Kerry lost. I worked on that campaign. I was a baby press person on that campaign. It was before I even met you. But then you were the chairman of the DCCC when the Democrats won back the House two years later. Then a guy named Barack Hussein Obama, no one would have bet this in 2004, became president two years later. Do you think there are parallels to that time or what lessons do you think Democrats should take from that time?
- [06:16]
Rahm Emanuel
There are parallels. And one, just to wind the clock back a little, Democrats lost in 2000. Some would argue we didn't. But we didn't have the White House at the end of the Supreme Court decision. We lost a historic midterm, which we should have won post 9 11, 2002, and then go on to lose a reelection during an unpopular war. Not a reelection, but Bush's reelection, John Kerry's challenge. And so there were three consecutive elections that Democrats had lost. And at that point, Democrats were quite obviously depressed, sense that we were off kilter. So there's some similarities to 2024, except for in 2022 we don't have the type of midterm and 2020 we had won. So there's more poetry resemblance than there is kind of on the pro side. But there is a sense that Democrats are lost and that we don't know how to win. And so from a kind of structural standpoint and strategic standpoint, that's an accurate analogy. Correct. But there are other intervening events that I think are more pressing to the moment, not just this election.
- [07:24]
Jen Psaki
One of the things I remember about working for you is you were obsessed with candidate quality. I mean, and the kind of candidates who could win in districts that Democrats didn't always win in. I mean, people like Heath Shuler, Sheriff Brad Ellsworth, and I remember. But you live this. You were relentless in recruiting these people. I mean, you'd call them how many times a day to try to get them to run.
- [07:46]
Rahm Emanuel
Well, the infamous one is, like, Pete Schuller was worried about his family. Legitimate.
- [07:51]
Jen Psaki
Yeah.
- [07:51]
Rahm Emanuel
And I used to call him when I was at both the soccer games and swim meets of my children and just leave the phone on the mic so he could hear it. And I said, you'll figure out, trust me, if you put priorities on how to be both a father and a congressman, et cetera. But to the core point, which I think is important, because we have a debate about message, totally legit, but we lose sight that the messenger is also a message. And I think it was replicated in Chris Van Halen and myself in 08, replicated in 2018, and then replicated again in 2022. That you want candidates. When you have gerrymandered districts which are supposed to put a electoral lock on a district, to pick that lock, you're going for every point you can. And the candidate, the messenger is a message. And we decided, and I remember this distinctly, because there was a lot of, shall we say, disagreement with this early in the party, the Congressional Caucus, that when we were recruiting Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans, people out of the national security sheriffs, or in Keith Shuler's case, former professional football player, people's profiles not only fit the district took a slew of issues off the table and allowed it to come to the agenda of the 6 and 06, which was about minimum wage, about energy prices. And there was an authenticity key word, in my view, about our strategy in recruiting candidates that culturally fit that district. Their bio became part of their introduction. And then it opened up a whole nother level of conversation because you weren't hitting a speed bump, because the cultural comfort allowed the candidates to get to the kitchen table or the diner's counter. And we recruited Gary Peters, who's in the news this week. He was a state senator, so it's not like we didn't go in certain places to proven electoral records. Part of that was also identifying people who succeeded where they shouldn't have succeeded as either state reps or state senators. And I remember once getting yelled, these aren't real Democrats. I go, well, there are going to be real Democrats in that district. And remember, the gavel only comes in one size.
- [10:04]
Jen Psaki
Right.
- [10:04]
Rahm Emanuel
It doesn't get bigger or smaller based on the majority. It's only one size. And so I said, the goal is to win in these districts, not what makes you comfortable in the caucus. And it took a while to that to sink in. But if you look at where the party has succeeded in past midterms and national elections, it's finding candidates that thematically work, and especially in my view, whether there's entrepreneurs or veterans or national security voices, that tells you. I mean. Let me interrupt myself. Senator Slotman in Michigan.
- [10:40]
Jen Psaki
Slotkin.
- [10:40]
Rahm Emanuel
Yeah. Yeah, Slotkin. I'm sorry. She comes out of the national security profile, wins in a midterm, goes on to win a Senate race in a seat in a state that we lose at the presidential level, but she goes on in reverse. That tells you the importance of biography. The messenger is the message. Not 100%, but not zero either.
- [11:01]
Jen Psaki
I think what I'm hearing from, and I know from working with you on several different tours of duty, as I like to say, under the tutelage of Rahm Emanuel, is you're of the view, I believe, that you can't have litmus tests for who candidates are. That's what you're alluding to, I think, in part here. Right. People have to meet their districts.
- [11:17]
Rahm Emanuel
So.
- [11:17]
Jen Psaki
Meaning Democrats should welcome.
- [11:19]
Rahm Emanuel
Well, there is a litmus test, and the litmus test is not the one we're applying.
- [11:23]
Jen Psaki
We're applying the wrong litmus test.
- [11:25]
Rahm Emanuel
Yes. So it's not that litmus tests aren't wrong. There is a test. We all use electabilities, a litmus test. And that's the litmus test I would use, which is you're willing to be a Democrat, you're willing to vote for if we win the speaker and the chairmanship. That's my litmus test. And if you can win that, electability is my litmus test. There may be a whole slew of issues that you care about, and I'm not saying they're not right. But my first and foremost, if you're the party chair is winning. Everything else will take care of itself.
- [11:52]
Jen Psaki
Do you think right now, I mean, obviously people are selecting party leaders. There's a DNC race that will probably have Happened before this airs. But do you think Democrats have gotten away from this in the last couple of years? I mean, is the wrong litmus test been too much of a driver?
- [12:05]
Rahm Emanuel
Well, there's cases where we've applied the wrong litmus test and there's cases where we've, in my view, applied the right litmus test. And I just gave you a Senate seat. Exactly. That example of the right kind of litmus test and an example of recruitment in past years, they build up a slew of candidates that then end up running for higher office. And so there are cases where we haven't done the right thing. And we do. You got to sit there and check every interest group's box. And when you're done, the parts don't add up to a totality that's bigger. It's actually just a lot of parts that are spewed across the table. You know, people forget this about both Bill Clinton and Barack Obama because I actually think I was talking about congressional, but I actually think their biography. When you think about the movie at the convention where they introduce themselves, I mean, part of President Obama's introduction was the community organizer. No, Republicans made fun of it. Actually, for a guy who won Ohio and won autoworkers, the idea that he knew their communities, working class communities that got left behind, factories got shot, it not only was important bridge to that voter when it came to the auto industry bailout, his familiarity with the devastation in the local community of a factory that closed, that anchored the little league team, anchored the Kiwanis club, was re. That biography was an essential bridge to a voter you didn't have before. Now back up. Now I'm aging myself back to President Clinton. I was reminiscing the other day with McGahl about this people during the primary process. He goes into the convention third below President Bush, low Ross Perot, he's third. A lot of people are talking about getting him off the ticket. And part of the issue, not only but part of the issue because they had heard about Oxford, heard about Rhodes scholar, heard about Georgetown. They thought he was of one class, one economic background. Part of that biography was reintroducing him as a child of a single mother who was on the other side of the tracks. And that biography and that experience, that personal, made relevance when he then says at the convention, to those who work hard, play by the rules and try to raise their kids to know right from wrong, this is a government on your side. And so biography is essential at the national level and down to the school board.
- [14:27]
Jen Psaki
One of the things I think they also had in common, but tell me if you agree with this, since you work for both of them and I didn't work for President Clinton, is that they weren't afraid if needed because they thought it was right to piss people off, to make certain groups unhappy.
- [14:42]
Rahm Emanuel
It's my middle name.
- [14:43]
Jen Psaki
Well, I know you feel that way.
- [14:45]
Rahm Emanuel
Well, it's actually touching on something we were just talking about that I'm putting pen to paper on. And I think there's three examples. So let me illustrate them. In 1992, we had gone through 20 years in the wilderness. Richard Nixon's law and order, Ronald Reagan's welfare queen, George Herbert Walker Bush's Willie Horton. And we had also become a party that referred, and I'm saying this as a, you know, my uncle was a Chicago police officer, referred to police as pigs. And Bill Clinton talked about 100,000 community police officers. He talked about the assault weapon ban. And that gave an entree not only successfully, but then also, if you go back, was willing to, in a key moment, in a key speech, speak on and address the comments by what became a shorthand now called sister soldier. And he was what nobody thought was comfortable. But if you're going to be this kind of chorus of voices, you have to have a conductor and the conductor has to look strong enough. It's kind of a prerequisite if you're going to go into the Oval Office. And that was a key moment. And, you know, you could always choose to run on defunding the police or 100,000 community police officers. I know which one has worked successfully electorally and policy wise. Second President Obama and people forget this quite often about parenting, that it was easy to father a child, but very hard to be his dad, the child's dad. And a lot of people criticized him for that. And he was showing he was willing to go in in a lot of headway. Go back to another issue. How many times have we dealt you and I dealt with protests of deporter in chief. She was deporter in chief.
- [16:22]
Jen Psaki
Yes.
- [16:22]
Rahm Emanuel
Versus an electoral strategy that reminds you that you, you know, free health care at the border if you cross illegally. Now, which one of those were politically and are actually mainstream policy, both in a sense and willing to say to a constituency, no, parenting is important. And we're going to talk about this. We're going to engage on this. And that's both the topic and the character of not being literally shut down, as you've heard me before say this, the kind of woke police Kind of arrest you without your Miranda rights. And both President Clinton and President Obama not only got elected, but get reelected only two Democrats since Franklin Delano Roosevelt to achieve that goal. And both were willing to take on kind of an area where a constituency of the party tried to silence them. And they showed both A, common sense and B, strength. Fast forward. In the last state of the union of President Biden's tenure, in the kind of freewheeling period of time he uses the term illegal immigrant, a lot of the Washington corps start whipping it up. And the next day the White House changes it to undocumented. And one, fast forward. It didn't really help us in 2024, as you can see by the results of Hispanic voters. And two, it showed that any one constituency was more important in their voice than the conductor. And, you know, I'm probably going to irritate you. Don't go out of your way to just piss off a constituency. But you got to know right from wrong and you got to have kind of a North star. And we have examples of the two presidents who both not only get elected and get reelected, and they have some both values on issues, but also the character and strength of character to say when you're wrong. And then we have an example where that didn't happen. Now, President Biden didn't go forward in 2024. We know that, but we know the result of his back voters. Okay, we know what happened in that process. And, and I think that's a telling example, because if you're going to give somebody the chief executive job, you have a certain mind's eye view. And if any one constituency can silence you, you're not exactly the person or individual we want you looking eye to eye to Putin, because if that's going to quiet you down, you're going against President Xi, you're going to go against President Putin. And Washington social media made you flip. Now, sometimes that may work, but that's an example in my view. Now, we can get into policy discussions, we can get into other things about the difference between and legitimate discussions of using the word undocumented versus illegal. But we know from a pure political electoral standard, whether you go through what is now shorthand, Sister Soulja, or you go through the discussion of parenting. I mean, I don't mean to do this, but go all the way back to Patrick Moynihan. He got silenced when he said something. We're not a better country because he got silenced.
- [19:17]
Jen Psaki
We're going to take a quick break here. And when we're back. I'll get Rahm's take on a winning strategy for Democrats to push back against Trump's onslaught of executive actions. That's next.
- [19:33]
Flight Attendant
Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding Group A. Please have your boarding passes ready to scan if your phone is cracked old or was chewed up by your Chihuahua Travel companion, please refrain from holding up the line and instead simply go to Verizon and trade in any phone in any condition from one of their top brands for the new Samsung Galaxy S25 plus with Galaxy AI on Unlimited ultimate and watch or tap. Also on now service plan required for Watch or tab. Trade in and additional terms apply. See verizon.com for details.
- [20:03]
MSNBC Announcer
MSNBC presents Main justice each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.
- [20:15]
Jen Psaki
The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy.
- [20:19]
Rahm Emanuel
I think what we are seeing is Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.
- [20:26]
MSNBC Announcer
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- [20:43]
Jen Psaki
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [20:48]
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- [21:06]
Jen Psaki
The immigration issue is an interesting one for a million reasons, including, I mean there was not a lot of attention paid to this. But when there was the bipartisan agreement on immigration that of course was killed by Trump and killed by Mike Johnson, only five or six Democratic senators actually voted against it and it was far more conservative than I think most of them could have imagined. But that does tell you about sort of the politics of that and the misread for a long time about that issue. Let me ask you because there's probably both messaging and policy issues. But as you look to kind of where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue? Where do you sit on that?
- [21:47]
Rahm Emanuel
Here's what I would say. I'm a child of an immigrant and I'm a grandchild of an immigrant. And the idea that 100 plus years ago my grandfather came to Chicago as a 14 year old and his grandson became both mayor, chief of staff to a president, ambassador tells you the American story. But we are a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws. And that's going to be our guiding principle. And if you look through American history, immigrants have become part of us, but we've also enforced the law. And if you're not part of that law and you're not respecting that law, you're not welcomed. Now I will tell you, and I think one of the things that's interesting in both the policy debate, I think we underestimate the kind of common sense of American people. Immigration is actually in general terms a positive and people see it that way. There's majorities for that. What they don't like is people breaking the law or the chaos of the images of a border out of control. Nobody likes that. There's not people supportive even if they had come in another era. And I think addressing the American people with an adult voice, an adult discussion. We haven't fixed this since Ronald Reagan and the Simpson Mazzoli Act. A lot has changed. We need to update how we deal with illegal immigration and update how we deal and define and what is permissible under legal immigration. And a level headed conversation with the American people that respects the two principles of both a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants. I actually think you can do stuff and I actually think there's a consensus today on illegal immigration and how to confront it. I think the conversation we need to have is what then is permitted? That's where we're short.
- [23:27]
Jen Psaki
There obviously have been this public effort to. I mean, Dr. Phil was joining raids in your hometown of Chicago. I mean, there's a performative aspect of this right now.
- [23:37]
Rahm Emanuel
Look, as somebody who Jen has done my own kind of, how should I say is if you're interested in striking a show or an Image, you put Dr. Phil. I had to think of a hundred people that I would want trying to round up criminals of illegal immigrants.
- [23:54]
Jen Psaki
Would he be in the top hundred?
- [23:55]
Rahm Emanuel
He would not make the top 1000. I don't remember him in a windbreaker with ice jacket. So I understand the theater, but it has nothing to do with actually solving the problem. You want to solve the problem. You pass healthcare legislation. You work with passing what you acknowledged in the spring of 2024 was a bipartisan bill that solves the problem. You want to strike a theater stage, that's a different thing. Now I'll give you an example where I think the Democrats are an opportunity here that's not been seized, which is Democrat governors. I've kind of surveyed This, I can't say it's complete, are all for getting criminals who are illegal or undocumented immigrants out of here. Well, you run the jail system. Go to the jail, pull out those with criminal records have already been sentenced and say, I'll see you ice here at 12 o'clock on Tuesday. Bring the bus. We got 48 people here. They all talk about it, but they don't do it. That would give you a legitimacy to then stand and say, but here's what you're not going to do. You're not going to that school and you're not going to that place of worship that I will not let you do. You want to come to Pontiac Prison? I'll see you there. 12:00 Tuesday, Donald Trump and Dr. Phil show up at schools, show up at places of worship, show up at hospitals. They will have that boomerang on them, just like what we did during COVID on schools and places of worship. And my point is, go to your prisons, your governor, you run them. If they're illegal immigrants with a criminal record that's already been sentenced, you should be not talking about it. You should be doing it. And I'll see you there Tuesday at 12 o'clock. Bring the bus. But schools, hospitals, places of worship, you gotta go through me and the rest of us, especially the pastors, especially the doctors and nurses, and especially the principals.
- [25:42]
Jen Psaki
A big question which you're touching on right now is this, how do Democrats run against Trump? I mean, you've said Trump is, he's the elephant. Not just in the room, he is the big elephant. Right. I guess my question for you is, I think the Democrats have been not as tough as they were many years ago. In the last couple of years, there's been an atrophying of toughness. And that's my first question, but my second one is, how much do you make it about running against Trump? And how do you not get pulled into kind of every single tidbit that's being thrown out there?
- [26:14]
Rahm Emanuel
So there's like six answers. Let me try to give them. One is, you should confront Trump. Not on everything, but you should. But we need to have a conversation with the American people. What happened? We got lazy. And I put this, you know, 20 years ago, people said, oh, demographics are destiny for the Democrats. And we became intellectually flabby, as in.
- [26:36]
Jen Psaki
And just to spell that out for a second, just people assuming, like, African Americans are gonna vote for Democrats, Latinos will vote for Democrats, young people. Right?
- [26:44]
Rahm Emanuel
Yeah, right. We'll become a Majority, minority country. It will take care of itself totally. It led to intellectual ignorance. And we lost both in a strategic sense of the public and a sense of having a real conversation with them and the policy work that is required over the time. So one is, I'm not my normal kind of North Star to confront Trump, especially given the executive orders, is litigation, motivation and communication. Some will go into the bucket of litigation, some will go into the bucket of motivation, and some will go into the bucket of communication. But you don't pick all of them. You pick the ones that I would focus on the example. We've stopped them on the 14th amendment, stopped them on the budget freeze. Next, inspector generals. Why would I go to inspector generals? Not only waste, fraud and abuse, but second point. There was an Inspector General Report April 2023, on the training of air traffic controllers, that we were short air traffic controllers. They tell you things. As a former mayor, I hated the inspector generals. I put them in every department, though. Oh, it drives you crazy.
- [27:50]
Jen Psaki
We all, we hated the AGs in government. IGs were like, oh, my God, IG report.
- [27:56]
Rahm Emanuel
But in the end of the day, when you look back, they make you sharper, they make you better. You know how many billions of dollars Inspector general found a fraud, waste and abuse at both Medicare and Medicaid. So my view is, and it's quite clear where the law is, it's quite clear where the Republican senators are on it. It divides Trump and the Republicans. And so my view is you go next because you got two wins. Go for a third win. Nothing helps you win like winning. You want to look like a winner, you want to see me like a winner, get a third win. So pick. You can't do a hundred of them. So I go right there. Inspector generals.
- [28:29]
Jen Psaki
When you say inspector generals, because you're a tactician, too, what should they be doing?
- [28:33]
Rahm Emanuel
Take them to court. Because it's quite clear what the law says. The judge will basically put a hold on it. What he is trying to do right now is not only everybody says, oh, flood the zone, flood the zone. He's testing the boundaries of the executive branch. And you either believe we have three branches of government or you don't, or you believe that the presidency is the first among all equals.
- [28:52]
Jen Psaki
Right? Which he believes.
- [28:54]
Rahm Emanuel
And there's an intellectual group of Republicans who believe that there's a whole theory of the case, mainly articulated by former Attorney General Bill Barr and others. And that's not true. It is very clear, at least. I'm not a lawyer, but I studied a lot of American history. Constitutionally, it was three equal branches of government that had a checks and balance system. They have a vision that the presidency is the first among all equals. The court is going to decide this. I happen to think when you look at it and you want to win, the inspector general is both legally our best ground and politically, because Senator Grassley, Senator Lindsey Graham have been very clear about their view about what happened. And so it also divides the Republicans, something I think has a little political benefit, and it creates more dissonance on their side, more unity on our side. That's the other goal.
- [29:45]
Jen Psaki
Have you been watching hearings at all? I know you're a busy guy, but is there anyone you've been impressed with on the Democratic side? Like, oh, they got a little life in them. They're fighting back. I know you know all these people personally, but.
- [29:55]
Rahm Emanuel
No, no, I don't. I've watched, I think, both Senator Bennett and Senator Maggie Hassan from New Hampshire in the Kennedy one. Because they got real and personal. Yeah, real personal. And also because I think it raises a bar on Senator Cassidy because he's a doctor. And I think that what's happening is you have your professional, personal views, and then you have your political judgment about your primary, and they're caught between the fear of Trump and the fear of their conscience. What's on this side of the shoulder and what's on this side of the shoulder? And I also think. I mean, as a former mayor, I wouldn't hire Bobby Kennedy Jr. To be head of public health in Chicago.
- [30:38]
Jen Psaki
No way.
- [30:39]
Rahm Emanuel
I actually. No, I'll bite my tongue. I want to say that was a rare moment of self control, which is so rare.
- [30:46]
Jen Psaki
There was a lot of self control there.
- [30:48]
Rahm Emanuel
Maybe I need to see my therapist.
- [30:49]
Jen Psaki
What's happening? Or maybe you've been seeing too much therapist. They've muted you.
- [30:54]
Rahm Emanuel
Did the meds just kick in?
- [30:55]
Jen Psaki
Maybe. I never know you to not say what you think. I also, one of the things I loved about working for you is that you always would come in hot on what you thought. Like, you would call us and say, bill Burton and I sometimes would talk about this. Still to this day. You'd be like, why the f Is this thing not in the newspaper? And then we'd explain it and you'd say, okay, love you, bye. It was like a whole rollercoaster of a journey. But I always knew where you stood.
- [31:22]
Rahm Emanuel
Divorce thing for you, Bill Burton and Sarah was that somebody at Apple figured out speed dial. Oh.
- [31:29]
Jen Psaki
It was like, oh, Rahm is calling me for the 4th because if I.
- [31:33]
Rahm Emanuel
Had to look up your number and. Or dial it in, it would have saved you about 50 phone calls before.
- [31:37]
Jen Psaki
8:00Am well, speed dial. There we go. On the political side, I know you decided not to run for DNC chair. I don't even. How serious were you actually about that?
- [31:45]
Rahm Emanuel
I think Axelrod was more serious than I was. I mean, I was in Tokyo, and I'm like. All of a sudden, I wake up one morning and there's like 40 texts and other. What?
- [31:53]
Jen Psaki
You know, I think I asked people we both know, like, how is he gonna do that? He's the ambassador to Japan still for a while. But that aside, what would you. The toughness piece we've been talking about. There's this question of, like, what should the DNC chair actually do? What do these party committees do that's useful? What should they do? Should they be out there as the front face of fighting, as the leader of an opposition? Should they just be focused on state parties? Should they be reinventing the wheel some.
- [32:19]
Rahm Emanuel
Way d all the buff?
- [32:21]
Jen Psaki
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:22]
Rahm Emanuel
Look, there's a piece of it that is, you know, the plumbing, and there's a piece of it that is a communication, and there's a piece of it that is fundraising. So there's, you know, it's all above. It's not one of them. And. But I don't. We're out of power. We're going to have our test in 2025. You're going to have the New Jersey governor's race and the Virginia governor's race. That's always the first bellwether that tells you where the sense is of 2026 going to be. Virginia has a Republican governor tracking as a Virginian. Yeah. So to me, the apparatus and the plumbing is going to be very, very important and the communication. And also, one of the things that we learned is we're behind the curve on alternative mediums. Look, I mean, I think I know politics. I practiced in presidential and national politics, mayor and local politics. Sometimes I feel I was. Since he's in vogue, I feel like I was around doing campaigns when William McKinley was president. I mean, I feel, you know, I mean, were you.
- [33:23]
Jen Psaki
Do you want to talk about that experience?
- [33:25]
Rahm Emanuel
Yeah, yeah. Me and my buddy, Bill McKinley. Yeah, the tariff man. Actually, that gets back to, like, the immigration thing. You know, if you go back and look at the inaugural speech that President Trump talked about, he talks about McKinley make great wealth for America on tariffs and talent. Well, it looks like President Trump only focused on the tariff part, and this is his own words. The talent part he's not doing really good at, cuz he's turning away a lot of talent and he's not doing a lot of nurturing the talent. So you can make Trump eat his own words on that. That's just kind of a random point I wanted to make sure I got across.
- [33:58]
Jen Psaki
No, I think this is like the exposure of we actually need a functioning federal government, and it actually does a lot to public services and people's lives in communities.
- [34:08]
Rahm Emanuel
That's a very important point because a lot, stereotypically, I'm talking in broad strokes here, Republicans think, oh, the government doesn't matter. Well, you shut off the spigot for 20 seconds and all of a sudden you basically, you know, forget it. We're not going to spend $3 trillion. We're putting it all on hold. And then you realize, guess what? The federal government, given it's a quarter of the economy, touches a lot of people's lives. It's not Social Security, it's the recipients of Social Security. It's not Medicare. It's the people who want to see their doctor. It's the veterans who've served us in Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam who actually rely on the doctor and the nurses and, you know, the kids that are showing up at Head Start so they can learn to read and they learn their colors, their shapes, their numbers. You can sit there and, you know, sitting in a Washington Institute, the federal government, nobody will see it. If we turn the lights off, nobody won't even know it's dark. Well, okay, that lasted 20 seconds. It was not just that the executive order was poorly drafted, it was a stupid idea. Okay, this captures what I hate. Oh, it was poorly drafted. It was rushed.
- [35:11]
Jen Psaki
No, the notion that they didn't approve it.
- [35:13]
Rahm Emanuel
I'm saying you had four years to plan. It wasn't rushed. It was just a dumb idea. Okay, maybe with some typos in the memo, but it was a dumb idea, poorly written, and you can't actually put lipstick on a pig.
- [35:26]
Jen Psaki
No. Okay, you can't, as some have said.
- [35:28]
Rahm Emanuel
Okay, I'm out of metaphors. No, that's it.
- [35:30]
Jen Psaki
Well, no. Also, the notion that it didn't go through the right channels smells funny to me. It smells bad to me. Next up, Rahm and I get into how Democrats communicate and how they can do it better in plain English. Back in a moment.
- [35:50]
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- [36:20]
MSNBC Announcer
MSNBC presents Main justice each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.
- [36:32]
Jen Psaki
The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy.
- [36:36]
Rahm Emanuel
I think what we are seeing is Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.
- [36:43]
MSNBC Announcer
Main justice subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.
- [36:50]
Rahm Emanuel
Donald Trump is heading back to the White House.
- [36:53]
MSNBC Announcer
Together we can truly make America great again.
- [36:57]
Rahm Emanuel
We are in for an unpredictable but fascinating four years and we're going to be following every twist and turn for the first 100 days.
- [37:05]
MSNBC Announcer
We'll be bringing you the latest updates.
- [37:07]
Rahm Emanuel
And analysis first thing every morning. So join me, James Matthews, me, Martha.
- [37:12]
Flight Attendant
Calneck and me, Mark Stone for Trump.
- [37:14]
Rahm Emanuel
100 every weekday at 6am wherever you get your podcasts.
- [37:24]
Jen Psaki
Let me ask you about one of the things, and this is just part of what I've been thinking about in terms of how Democrats communicate. I mean, the ending message of the campaign, obviously authoritarianism, the threat of fascism are actual issues, but they were the closing message of the campaign in a lot of ways and how people heard it, which I don't think was the right thing.
- [37:41]
Rahm Emanuel
What do you think the answer is in your question, which is they are legitimate issues, but everybody cared about them was a yes and a hello. Okay, if you cared about the vibrancy of democracy, we had you on low. It was the rest of the voters that weren't already there, moved and motivated that you needed to focus on. And I think that the campaign actually, in a bizarre way up until the debate, was focused appropriately on kind of the what was important in the sense of change, energy, et cetera, and then fumbled afterwards because they kind of went back to kind of the playbook that President Biden was going to run and proven that that went to work. Then it didn't work because there was a threshold. And I say this, Donald Trump did not get a majority. He got a plurality. The country actually didn't want to vote for him, and they didn't. And you can see how quickly he's slipping now in just two Weeks of his presidency, there's not a lot of support. We fumbled what was potentially a winnable campaign closing on the wrong argument to voters. And I, you know, I love historians. I read history, that this whole library is filled with history books. I think one of the worst meetings, that dinner with the historians was bad for the Biden White House. They kept telling him about lbj. Roosevelt. No, because I, this is my joke. Having now worked in two administrations from the East Wing, when the President walks over to the Oval Office, there's like three Washington oil paintings, two Jefferson, there's a Truman, there's a couple Roosevelts, et cetera. Take them down. You want Pierce, you want Polk, you want Buchanan, you want to change the score? Because by the time the President gets from the East Wing to the White House, they're a head case. Okay, get all those oil paintings off the wall.
- [39:31]
Jen Psaki
Clear them out.
- [39:32]
Rahm Emanuel
Yeah, Polk, Pierce, you know, Taylor put them all up there. Okay. Those are the guys we want to score against this Washington, everything and his messes with the President said, I think this notion that you're some historical figure, history will take care of itself. Don't worry, don't try to shape it, do the right thing, get through it. And that was a mistake. And we didn't meet people where they lived their lives. And they issued a verdict.
- [39:54]
Jen Psaki
They told us what they thought. You know, I mean, this is one of those things you said. I've been saying.
- [39:58]
Rahm Emanuel
I like to say it was a one finger wave.
- [40:00]
Jen Psaki
Well, that's exactly. Or two fingers, either way you put it, depending on the person. So one of the things, and this is I always laugh when people call me a Washington insider, which maybe I am, but because I feel like I grew up in politics, like working on political campaigns and you can. And which drives me crazy is the way sometimes Democrats talk. It drives me insane. It's like we're in a PhD thesis on political academia, which is not how you win elections. You said. It's so funny because I wrote it down. Democrats talk like we are junk professors at a small liberal arts college of the Midwest, which I'm sure I would love. A small liberal arts college of the Midwest. But, like, that's not how most people talk. And I've noticed this since even hosting a show like I'll have people on. And you're like, are you reading from a sheet of talking point? I'm asking you about the threat to our country of this and you're talking about something else. How do you untangle candidates and people running for office? From that?
- [40:53]
Rahm Emanuel
Well, first of all, I'm not sure it's some part of it's trained, but some part of it's authentic. And you gotta, I mean, now again, I'm a product of an understudy of Bill Clinton. I mean he was a master of just try to, you know, he, he always said, well, that issue is good. That's going to cut like a hot knife through butter. I mean, he just knew how to, he knew how to talk, how people could understand without talking down to them. And I think that you can train people on certain things, but it's more how do you do an analogy? How do you make sure that what you're trying to say, you compare it to what you pick to compare it to so people get a sense of what you're trying to explain and there's a way of using terminology. But you're right, a lot of people, I mean Democrats, we love people to know that we're smart and that we got our PhD and here we're ready to show you our thesis. And it comes across not only that it's a self enclosed conversation, it is tremendously dismissive of them, the audience. We're actually talking to ourselves about how important, how smart we are rather than how to make sure that they understand. We're more interested in the sound of our own voice.
- [42:01]
Jen Psaki
There have been so many studies, again, academia, but this is actually applicable about how the fancier language you use, the more people are likely to tune out because it's like it's not just like talking above people, it's because you're talking in like there's only five experts on Kyrgyzstan. So stop talking like you have a PhD in Kyrgyzstan. Right, you're back, which is wonderful. Welcome back to Engagement and all the political what's happening? What are you going to be doing? Where are we looking for Rahm Emanuel?
- [42:30]
Rahm Emanuel
Well, you don't have to look. I'll be in a theater near you. No.
- [42:33]
Jen Psaki
Well, I know you'll be on our op ed pages, but what else?
- [42:36]
Rahm Emanuel
I'll be thinking about it, Jen. I mean, I'm back a whopping two weeks home in Chicago. And I love public service, as you know, I love politics and I'll figure it out. I'm back two weeks and I had a tremendous time. Amy and I had a tremendous time in Japan. We really loved it and it was a great way to serve the country and I learned a tremendous amount back home and I want to be engaged in our domestic politics.
- [43:02]
Jen Psaki
Are there any. And they can be bibbly no. Or don't. Are there any rising stars out there? You're like on the Hill, in Chicago, in another part that we may not have heard of, that you're like, that person's interesting.
- [43:14]
Rahm Emanuel
I just think there's, first and foremost at this hour, in this time, the Democrats on the congressional level that won Donald Trump districts, I'm just intrigued with. And they have a personal story that.
- [43:26]
Jen Psaki
Allows them, like Pat Ryan, people like that.
- [43:29]
Rahm Emanuel
Exactly. Pat Ryan, Congresswoman from Washington state, Congressman.
- [43:33]
Jen Psaki
From Maine, Marie Glusenkamp Perez. Yeah, right.
- [43:36]
Rahm Emanuel
They may be a pain to the leadership, but to me, they are an electoral success that needs to be studied, not dismissed. And so there's that. There's. I'm more interested in again, when Bill Clinton ran, people forget this. They referred to that pool of candidates as the midgets because Mario Cuomo and Bill Bradley didn't run today. You look at the bench, the Democrats at the State House is a tremendous pool of candidates, not just in, quote, unquote, blue states or states that vote Democratic. People that have won in states that did not and moved them because of their leadership and their governance style, move the voters, move public opinion in their states. To me, that is a tremendous crop at the state level. So that's where I look. I mean, President Kennedy and President Obama spent a whopping two weeks in the US Senate. It's not usually where presidents are produced. They're produced out of the state houses. They're produced people that have both the voice of an executive and the kind of communication of that level, and also the experience and the profile. So there's a lot of talent out there. We're not short talent. What we're short is the channel for that talent to rise up. And they're going to rise.
- [44:45]
Jen Psaki
As you see these people, I hope you'll text me them because I want to lift up. This is like the type of people we should be talking about. And I think sometimes it's lost and we only focus on four or five names.
- [44:55]
Rahm Emanuel
You know, it's, it's, there's one thing actually, to let me dial back five things that you asked. One of the things I think is important as a party going into a midterm that potentially could be a wave election as a reaction to Donald Trump. There should be no office that doesn't have a Democrat running for it. And put that on the party chairs.
- [45:14]
Jen Psaki
The state party chairs.
- [45:16]
Rahm Emanuel
Yes. You're not, you know, I know you say, oh, that county, we can't win. Put them up there. Because you don't you need surfboards, and you need surfers on that surfboard. And if this is going to be a wave election, we got to have the surfers and the surfboards and put them out everywhere. We're not gonna have the sheriff, we're not gonna have the county commissioner. Everything's gonna get filled. We're gonna have a name on it. Something's gonna pop, and that person is gonna pop. Five years from now, you're investing in a lot of Johnny Appleseeds, which is.
- [45:45]
Jen Psaki
So this is a perfect way to end. Cause I. I remember when I got the press secretary job and I had not started, and you called me, I don't know if you remember this, and.
- [45:54]
Rahm Emanuel
You said, I'm actually more familiar with your marital status than I am with how I called and recruited you. So sorry.
- [46:00]
Jen Psaki
Well, no, no, you didn. The press secretary. Although you did tell Joe Biden when you talked to him about me that he wouldn't have to worry if I was in the job, which I appreciate you would, but you called me and you said, I thought you were gonna give me, like, advice on how to deal with impeachment or what? I don't know. You've got all sorts of things going on in your mind at all times. And you were like, listen, when I was the chief of staff to Barack Obama, if he would call me on a Friday night, I would say to him, can I call you back in a couple of hours, because I'm having Shabbat dinner with my kids. And he would almost always say, y. Yes.
- [46:34]
Rahm Emanuel
So almost.
- [46:34]
Jen Psaki
Yeah, almost. And sometimes there are crises. Sometimes there are crises.
- [46:38]
Rahm Emanuel
Amy and I made a decision when I got elected to Congress. These were the family times. And then the office had to fit around it. Shabbat dinner, Sunday night, dinner two nights a week, other night's dinner, family trips. And then the only people that could violate that rule was Amy and I. And I give that advice to everybody. You set up the ground rules for the family, the work. Guess what? When Shabbat's over, the work gets done. The same crap will be there just as it was an hour ago.
- [47:04]
Jen Psaki
And that's such important advice for anybody who thinks, I can't run for office. I can't be in public service. It's too much. You can do it. That's a perfect piece of advice to end none. Rahm Emanuel. Thank you. You only do about a third of the number of F bombs people think. I'll just say, thank you very. It's only about a third of your reputation.
- [47:22]
Rahm Emanuel
My mother in law used to call Amy after the Sunday show and said, oh, Rahm did so well. I said she didn't think I did well. She doesn't agree with the single thing I said. She was just happy I got through 15 minutes without swearing. Well, that's all she meant.
- [47:34]
Jen Psaki
You know, my mother will give you honest perspective always.
- [47:37]
Rahm Emanuel
I know. Still to this day, Mom's talking man. She's on Team A.
- [47:41]
Jen Psaki
She's Team A. She's Team A. Rom, great to see you. Thank you so much.
- [47:44]
Rahm Emanuel
Nice to see you.
- [47:50]
Jen Psaki
Thanks for listening to the Blueprint with Jen Psaki. We'll be back next Monday with new episodes. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content. The senior producer for the Blueprint is Margaret Menefee and our producer is Vicki Vergelina. John Ball is our associate producer. Our booking producer is Michelle Hoffner and we had additional support from McKenna Roberts. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau, Mark Yoshizumi and Bob Mallory, and Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production, Alex Lupica is the executive producer of Inside With Jen Psaki and Ayesha Turner is the Executive Producer of MSNBC Audio. I'm your host Jen Psaki. Search for the Blueprint wherever you get podcasts and follow the series.
- [48:44]
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