Trump Won’t Save You, from the Billionaires or the Hantavirus

Summary

Podcast Summary: Clock It with Symone & Eugene

Episode: Trump Won’t Save You, from the Billionaires or the Hantavirus

Date: May 14, 2026
Hosts: Symone Sanders Townsend, Eugene Daniels
Main Guest: Dr. Ibram X. Kendi

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the convergence of current political and social crises—ranging from election interference, public health, racial justice, and mounting inequality—through the signature lively, off-the-cuff conversation between Symone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels. The hosts are joined by historian and author Dr. Ibram X. Kendi for a provocative examination of how “Great Replacement Theory” and narratives of racial threat feed the rise of authoritarianism and strategically dilute Black political power in America. The episode also covers the ongoing impacts of policy decisions on the pandemic response, billionaire influence, and what it will take for America to achieve genuine equality.

---

Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. The Trump Administration's Election Strategy & Democracy at Risk

Timestamps: 00:55 – 02:30, 10:30 – 17:30

• Election Engineering Beyond Ballots:

  • Symone argues that Trump’s administration isn’t just planning isolated moves but is engaged in a coordinated campaign to "engineer" (or “steal”) the election, not by tampering with votes directly but via changes to laws, policies, and institutions ahead of November.
    • “It is connected. It is all pointed at November. And I think they're trying to engineer the outcome of an election now.” – Symone Sanders (00:55)
  • Eugene probes what’s meant by “stealing” and sets up the episode’s exploration of how systematic manipulation matters more than ballot-box interference.

• Assault on Black Political Power:

  • Discussion of how recent Supreme Court decisions weakened the Voting Rights Act (VRA), accelerating redistricting and disenfranchisement efforts in southern states.
    • “They are using black people to do it. And we are under 174 days from the midterm elections. This is insane.”—Symone (10:30)
  • Real-world examples: Texas, Florida, Tennessee gerrymandering; special emphasis on the elimination or fracturing of majority Black districts, notably Rep. Jim Clyburn’s in South Carolina.
  • Importance of understanding the power of districting for communities:
    • “Just because they're in a red state ... do they not deserve representation?” – Symone Sanders (12:25)

• Experts’ & Politicians’ Responsibility:

  • Noting the relative silence on these issues from progressive figures (Bernie Sanders) and the challenge for politicians in directly discussing race and voter suppression.

---

2. Public Health: Hantavirus Outbreak & Government Trust

Timestamps: 02:30 – 10:30

• Cruise Ship Hantavirus Outbreak:

  • Non-political group chats have been ablaze about the outbreak.
  • Experts assure this is not “COVID 2.0”—hantavirus requires close, prolonged contact—but early reports hint at potential unknowns.
    • “The scientists and the medical professionals are all saying this is not Covid 2.0... but individuals that didn’t have prolonged close contact on the ship are testing positive.” – Eugene Daniels (03:28, 04:28)
  • Underlined issue: diminished trust in governmental/health authorities due to recent CDC and HHS politicization and loss of expert staff.
    • “We have to be skeptical of everything this government says because they have lied to us on very small things... over the last year and a half. So 10 years. 10 years. Yes.” – Symone (07:08)
    • “The leadership of the CDC and of HHS are political appointees. They don't seem to give a damn what the experts say.” – Eugene Daniels (06:18)

• Restoration of CDC Staff:

  • Points out inadequacy of merely rehiring staff if international partnerships (with WHO) are still broken, undermining effective crisis response.

---

3. Culture, Economics, and Pop Politics

Timestamps: 03:08 – 03:22, 39:00 – 41:12

• Quick mentions of the World Cup immigration bans (fans from 39 countries unable to enter the US) and the controversial Kevin Hart Netflix roast reflecting on the overlapping of cultural and political fault lines.

• Billionaires and Broader Inequality:

  • Discussion of American oligarchs/billionaires (Musk, Bezos) profiting amid division. Dr. Kendi notes:
    • “If you're a racist white oligarch ... you convince those white people you're robbing that they're being robbed by black people.” – Dr. Kendi (25:35)
    • Eugene and Symone debate whether “good billionaires” exist, with Dr. Kendi suggesting positive outliers are rare and the system overwhelmingly encourages wealth hoarding (39:00–40:02).

---

4. Interview with Dr. Ibram X. Kendi: Chain of Ideas & Authoritarianism

Timestamps: 19:33 – 41:12

• Great Replacement Theory—Empathy vs. Manipulation:

  • Dr. Kendi explains how the Great Replacement Theory has evolved to serve as a tool for controlling and dividing—i.e., “a more enlightened despot will chain people by their own ideas” (22:54), not iron.

  • Kendi posits empathy for those manipulated—"even white people who've been misled into believing that they are being replaced" (20:47)—but stresses the importance of seeing who the real manipulators are.

• Political Power, Race, and Zero-Sum Thinking:

  • The episode explores the illusion that civil rights gains for Black Americans (or any minority) must come at a cost to white Americans—a core tenet of zero-sum thinking.
    • “As black people gain, apparently white people lose, when in actuality, typically black people have gained as a result of these...policies. And the majority of white people have actually gained too.” – Dr. Kendi (31:25)

• Chaining by Ideas vs. Genuine Solidarity:

  • Dr. Kendi’s hopeful counter: recognizing shared humanity, rejecting the pitting of groups against one another, and building genuine political solidarity (38:27).
  • “As you become more powerful, I become more powerful.” – Dr. Kendi (38:27)

• Education is Key:

  • Emphasizes the necessity for all Americans—especially white Americans in the South—to learn how Black-led struggles have benefited everyone.
    • “Public schools in the south was largely a creation of black politicians...” – Dr. Kendi (36:11)

---

5. The Necessity of Naming and Confronting the Problem

Timestamps: 33:55 – 35:47, 41:52 – end

• Naming Racism and Voter Suppression Directly:

  • Symone challenges euphemistic political rhetoric (“assault on democracy”) and insists on focusing on the particular assault on Black citizens.

• Mental Chains & Empathy:

  • The show concludes with reflection on how systems of inequality and prejudice have created “mental chains,” not just physical or legal ones.
    • “They are mentally chained. I was just like, this is profound.” – Symone Sanders (41:52)
  • Both hosts stress the vital role of empathy, even as it is often only expected of the oppressed.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Election Interference and Systemic Racism

• “They are trying to steal it... It’s not about ballot boxes. It’s about everything else that they are doing before it.” – Symone Sanders (01:26)
• “We have to be skeptical of everything this government says because they have lied to us on very small things.” – Symone Sanders (07:08)

On the Great Replacement and Empathy

• “People have been chained by their own ideas.” – Dr. Ibram X. Kendi (29:43)
• “As you become more powerful, I become more powerful.” – Dr. Kendi (38:27)
• “The through line for me was empathy. And that’s where he started... it is both incumbent and automatic that the oppressed has to have empathy.” – Eugene Daniels (42:03)

On the Zero-Sum Illusion

• “White women are the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action in this country.” – Symone Sanders (31:49)

On the Role of Education and History

• “Public schools in the south was largely a creation of black politicians.” – Dr. Ibram X. Kendi (36:10)
• “Working class white people don’t learn their history. So then when a white person hears us talking about the erosion of black rights, they don’t realize that that’s ultimately gonna come for them.” – Dr. Kendi (36:55)

On a Path Forward

• “None of us is free unless all of us is free, as they say. Right now, we all in mental chains.” – Eugene Daniels (46:50)
• “We not gonna get past this moment if we are not able to find empathy and get on a similar page.” – Symone Sanders (46:39)

---

Segment Timestamps & Guide

• 00:55 – Main discussion opens: Trump administration strategies
• 01:26 – 02:30 – Defining election “engineering” vs. “stealing”
• 03:08 – 04:28 – World Cup immigration issues, viral cruise outbreak
• 05:17 – 07:08 – Public trust in government and pandemic comparison to 2020
• 10:30 – 17:30 – Black political power and gerrymandering
• 19:33 – 41:12 – Dr. Ibram X. Kendi interview, “Chain of Ideas,” replacement theory, zero-sum beliefs, billionaire influence, solidarity
• 41:52 – 46:50 – Mental chains, necessity of empathy, reflections on generational and cultural change

---

Final Thoughts

With direct, passionate, and at times humorous insight, Symone and Eugene—supported by Dr. Kendi’s scholarly lens—pull together the political, economic, and emotional threads connecting today’s assaults on democracy, public health, and equality. Their message: the fight to protect rights and freedoms is about confronting the manipulative narratives that keep us divided—and the leaders and billionaires who profit from that division. Empathy, historical knowledge, and uncompromising honesty are critical if we hope to break free from these “chains of ideas.”

---

For More:

• Dr. Ibram X. Kendi’s book: Chain of Ideas: The Origins of Our Authoritarian Age
• Reliable health updates: WHO.int
• New episodes: Thursdays, all podcast platforms and YouTube

Transcript

[Simone Sanders]

America is an idea. For 250 years, that idea has helped expand our rights and our freedoms. But progress isn't guaranteed. Today. Those founding principles are being challenged by efforts to mix religion and government. The Freedom From Religion foundation is working to protect the Constitution and keep power where it belongs with we the people. Visit FFRF US MSNOW or text MSNOW to 511-511-Text MSNOW to 511-51-511 and keep state and church separate. Text fees may apply. If you, your parent or served in the military, you could join our family. Our members saved an average of $70 a month on auto insurance when they switched. Tap the banner or visit usaa.com join today to check your eligibility restrictions apply. Greetings and welcome back to Clock it

[Eugene Scott]

and our new little set. Look at us.

[Simone Sanders]

Come on. I mean, we are trying some new things. Let us know in the comments what you think. I wanna start where I always start. I think what the Trump administration is doing right now is just not a series of one offs, Mr. Daniels. It is connected. It is all pointed at November. And I think they're trying to engineer the outcome of an election now.

[Eugene Scott]

Engineer? The outcome is very specific. Is that the same as stealing an election? Because when people hear that, they're thinking ballot boxes, voting machines, we will get into it. Simone has lots of thoughts.

[Simone Sanders]

Well, you know what? This is why I like having a reporter sitting next to me. Chad, to be very clear, I do think they are trying to steal it. Okay. But it's actually not about what happens on election day. It's not about ballot boxes. It's about everything else that they are doing before it. We also have Dr. Ibram X Kendi, who is joining us later.

[Eugene Scott]

His new book is out now. You can go get it. And it walks through the historical through line, the playbook, basically. That helps explain why this particular play keeps getting run over and over and over again

[Simone Sanders]

and over again. And you know what? That's just part of what's happening in the backdrop this week. Trump, the president of the United States is in China with Xi Jinping. He actually brought a whole CEO delegation with him, which was kind of crazy.

[Eugene Scott]

Banks, Boeing, Cargill, Elon Musk. The New York Times says a $1 trillion Chinese investment deal on US soil is on the table. He is walking in there with a weaker hand. That's not us. That's the experts that say it. The Iran war has us burning through munitions at a rate nobody that cares about it is comfortable with us.

[Simone Sanders]

I'm very uncomfortable and I'm not an expert, but I just, I know when to be uncomfortable. You know when to be. I'm uncomfortable and I am concerned. I do know some experts. Okay, I know a little bit now. The World cup kicks off next month. It's happening in Canada, it's happening in Mexico, and it's happening right here on US Soil. Now, some people might say that's all America. Again, North American continent is where the World cup is happening. And the question nobody in this administration wants to answer is whether anybody will actually be here to watch it. No, because there are fans from 39 banned countries, apparently that cannot come. And FIFA is privately asking the White House to pause Ice Race during the tournament. That's an insane, insane request to make.

[Eugene Scott]

Sunday night, Netflix dropped this roast of Kevin Hart, which I have seen clips of. I have not watched the whole thing, but people are still arguing about it. Between Charlie Kirk jokes, George Floyd jokes and the Melania Trump material that got cut.

[Simone Sanders]

Lots of thoughts, people. Have I lost the lash talk about this one. Plus the cruise ship where the hantavirus

[Eugene Scott]

was spreading, which is where the non political group chats are living this week. I am terrified, very terrified. First off, and this is important, the scientists and the medical professionals are all saying this is not Covid 2.0, so everybody can calm down a little bit. The hantavirus is harder to catch and the people on the cruise are supposed to be isolating, so they shouldn't be out in the streets giving their okay.

[Simone Sanders]

But a lot of us did get off the cruise.

[Eugene Scott]

One of them went to a wedding.

[Simone Sanders]

I believe what the experts are saying. The problem is a whole lot of people do not believe them, given who is in charge now, to reiterate, the World Health Organization did say on Friday that it assesses the risk to the global population posed by the event is, quote, unquote, low. Hantavirus is not airborne according to the World Health Organization. And this strain moves through what they call close and prolonged contact. I'm using air quotes for everybody at home, but on Monday, Ms. Now senior medical analyst Dr. Ven Gupta, well, he was on CNBC saying, maybe not.

[Eugene Scott]

I'm reticent to speculate because we haven't heard a lot from health officials yet, but it seems like individuals on the ship that didn't have prolonged close contact are testing positive. And so perhaps there's something different here happening. That is the concern. His words. We do not believe this is another pandemic type situation. Important. But here's the piece that is hard to ignore. Back in early 2020. Even with the CDC's most experienced career staff in place, they did underestimate how bad Covid was going to get. And a lot of that staff is not there anymore. And Simone, that is the question that a lot of people have because at some point this happened last April, RFK restructured the CDC and he laid off the full time cruise ship inspectors. He defunded the vessel sanitation program. Those people are back. The cruise ship inspectors are back and

[Simone Sanders]

they hired them back. That's what always happens. They fire somebody, they got dope, they bring them back. And then they're like, actually, we actually need them. They bring them back. Now, we talked to one of the former, as I like to call HBICs at the CDC, Dr. Deborah Howery. She actually quit from the Trump administration because she didn't want to carry out what they were saying. They were asking her to go against the science, so on and so forth. This happened last year. But I bring it up because Dr. Howie told us on our show that the people that they fired, those aren't even the folks that would have done the international inspections. International teams are people from the World Health Organization and they work in partnership with them who are.

[Eugene Scott]

And we do not work in partnership

[Simone Sanders]

with the whole back because they were stationed in different places across the world because our partnership with the World Health Organization was shut down or the rug was pulled out from under them. Those people were no longer there. So even hiring the people back is not doing what needs to be done. I'm very concerned about the Haunter virus. And it is Haunter, not Hanta. Haunter.

[Eugene Scott]

Haunter. I will say this.

[Simone Sanders]

You thought it was like Covid, baby, you was in there practicing your TikTok dances.

[Eugene Scott]

I was doing my. I'm trying to get my coin. I had talked to both my husband and our EP Robert on the weekend. He was like, Eugene, calm down. It's not Covid 2.0. So I did some reading. And that's true. It is harder to catch. You're supposed to apparently be around someone for a longer time. You have to be closer than with COVID Okay, but my question is not really about the hantavirus so much as the people working at the CDC currently. A lot of the experts have left. The leadership of the CDC and of HHS are political appointees. They don't seem to give a damn what the experts say. They don't seem to think these kinds of things are important. And I think people have a lot of questions about how Donald Trump, who was the president when Covid happened. Who downplayed it the whole time. If they can trust the information coming out of the government.

[Simone Sanders]

And that's the point. That is the point. I think we're at the point we have to be skeptical of everything this government says because they have lied to us on very small things. The dumbest thing over the last. Yes. Over the last year and a half. So 10 years. 10 years. Yes.

[Eugene Scott]

What was the first press briefing that they ever had?

[Simone Sanders]

This was a lot that the crowd severed.

[Eugene Scott]

Larger than Obama, period.

[Simone Sanders]

Larger than mlk.

[Eugene Scott]

Ever since then.

[Simone Sanders]

Yes. Actually, they have been lying for a while. The lies in this administration have been just even more egregious. I would argue they've been more consistent about small things that we can even see with our own eyes. But I guess, you know, to your point, the crowd size lie was in that vein. So I understand why people are like, mm, can we trust the government? I will just know. Cause you know, I can never walk away without a plug. For Nebraska.

[Eugene Scott]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Simone Sanders]

The people that got off that cruise ship that they are still monitoring, they flew them to Omaha, Nebraska, to the University of Nebraska Medical center. Because that's where the experts are, child. Because all great things come from the Midwest and the Great Plains.

[Eugene Scott]

Sure.

[Simone Sanders]

And greatness comes from Nebraska. Like myself.

[Eugene Scott]

Yes. Look at that. But I do. Before we go to the next topic, one of the passengers on the Hauntership. I don't know what, beyond Diaz, Jake, Rosemary, not you.

[Simone Sanders]

About to get him docs.

[Eugene Scott]

Well, he went on today's show. He did a video.

[Simone Sanders]

Oh, my gosh. I hope he wasn't in person.

[Eugene Scott]

He was not in person.

[Simone Sanders]

Yeah. I feel good right now.

[Eugene Scott]

I'm happy to be in a place where I know we are well cared for.

[Simone Sanders]

And if anything happens, we have the

[Eugene Scott]

medical attention that we need. But this is what he said before while he was on the ship. Listen to this. I am currently on board the MV Hondius. And what's happening right now is very real for all of us here. We're not just a story. We're not just headlines. We're people.

[Simone Sanders]

Reality is, people have died from the hantavirus. It's actually quite deadly. There's a 40% death rate, if you get it.

[Eugene Scott]

Which is one of the reasons why what the experts say, that's one of the reasons it can't transmit that much. Because it just happens, child.

[Simone Sanders]

Again, I don't. I mean, I understand what the experts are saying. I want them to do some more research. Okay. I have questions, but so you know, again, the fear of his voice, I understand is why I'm gonna be masking and not going on any.

[Eugene Scott]

I apologize to everyone listening. It didn't make anyone feel better.

[Simone Sanders]

I just think we should all err on the caution and wash your hands a little bit more. You know, sing the birthday song while you washing. You might want to put a mask on. I'm flying again at the end of this week and I think I ordered some KN95s.

[Eugene Scott]

I'm not gonna lie about you and cruises and that.

[Simone Sanders]

No, to be very clear, to be very, very clear concerning the cruise was a cruise to South America. I don't care what the people must have got off that boat. And we still don't know what happened. I did tell my mother in law the other day, I was like, this is probably stay off the cruises. And she just didn't say nothing.

[Eugene Scott]

There's a cruise in your future, it's coming very soon. But one of the, we had a doctor on our show this weekend to talk about it and what he told us is that. Cause I asked him, I said okay, people don't believe they can believe HHS or cdc. WHO should they listen to? And he says who, the World Health Organization is gonna be all over this. They're putting stuff on their X formerly known as Twitter, their Instagram. So they are trying to communicate with the people of the world about what's actually happening. So you can trust the who, I think. And I'm going to air on the side of listening to the experts we have talked to that have calmed me down just a teensy bit.

[Simone Sanders]

I just want to give the website to people. It is www.who.int okay, that's Internet who.int too much. Let's move on, let's move on. Okay. I think this is the bigger for me or maybe an equally as big story. Okay. Monday night Senator Cory Booker from New Jersey was on our show and I told Senator Booker that we are witnessing an assault on black political power in America. And he called it an assault on democracy. And I'm like, okay, yes, we are both right, but they are using black people to do it. And we are under 174 days from the midterm elections. This is insane.

[Eugene Scott]

It's always interesting when we wanna talk about black people. Folks wanna zoom out. But let's start with the maps.

[Simone Sanders]

I'm trying to zoom in.

[Eugene Scott]

Okay. Cuz that's where we're starting. It began in Texas last. Here's President Trump outside the White House in July.

[Simone Sanders]

We're Calling you for a complete redrawing of the congressional map.

[Eugene Scott]

No, no, just a very simple redrawing. We pick up five seats. Very simple redrawing. A month later, Texas Governor Greg Abbott signed off on new districts that could deliver those five seats to Republicans that Donald Trump just asked for. In December, the Supreme Court let it stand. Florida, Tennessee, Missouri, North Carolina started to follow California and Virginia voters, which is really important. Democrats fought back and went through the voters to do it. Those had counter maps. Right now, Virginia's is paused because of

[Simone Sanders]

their Supreme Court in that state, which is so insane. And then two weeks ago, the United States Supreme Court all but killed the Voting Rights Act. Okay, section two after that happened, now Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi and South Carolina are moving with record speed to carve up majority black districts, which strips black voters of the ability to elect the representatives of their choice. Can I just say, as a black woman who grew up as a Democrat in North Omaha, Nebraska, but in a red state, but my city and the district, frankly, that I grew up in, District 2, is a district that for Obama, Hillary Biden and Kamala Harris delivered an Electoral College vote. So I know the power of a community being able to elect the representatives of their choice, being able to go to the ballot box, have a voice and make their voices heard, to have a voice. Just because you're in a red state. These folks keep arguing about these folks. I mean, elected officials, like in South Carolina, South Carolina representatives were like, going on television being like, look, Jim Clyburn don't represent the rest of the state. So that's why we need to get rid of his seat. Well, he represent his district, baby. That's what he's supposed to do. So are the people, just because they live in South Carolina and they're not Republicans, do they not deserve representation? And why are the people disproportionately black that don't deserve the representation?

[Eugene Scott]

Why is that?

[Simone Sanders]

Why do you think that is? I think that these are the vestiges of slavery. As a state representative, a state representative out of Tennessee told me this two years ago, whenever the. Remember the. Tennessee.

[Eugene Scott]

Yeah, Tennessee Justin. One of the Justins.

[Simone Sanders]

Yes, one of the Justins. I went down there, I talked to members of the Black Caucus from Tennessee, the state delegations, and we were sitting at this man's church who happened to be a pastor who was also a state representative, and he was like, this is the vestiges of slavery. Well, baby, this is the vestiges of slavery. This is just like what happened after the fall of. Or the Collapse of reconstruction.

[Eugene Scott]

I think one of the things. Cuz there's a lot of concern, accurate concern about gerrymandering. Absolutely. But to me, the VRA is really the biggest issue. The fact that it makes sense.

[Simone Sanders]

So you would say this is not just about gerrymandering. It's not.

[Eugene Scott]

You have to agree, like you have to zoom out. They're connected and you have to pay attention to how they're connected and who is doing the connecting. But at the end of the day, the VRA used to give you both a pre thing to stop. You could say before the law passed, this is gonna hurt us. And post, they got rid of all of it and so there's no protection. And I think they probably look at two black people up here complaining about, oh, no, black people. Yeah, absolutely, very much. Because at the end of the day, we have not been a democracy that long, a true democracy in this country, frankly, I think we're still moving toward it. But anyway, 1965 was when we had the Voting Rights act and Civil Rights Act. So 1965, that's the year my parents were born.

[Simone Sanders]

It's not that long ago. It is not that long ago. I think it's crazy. I think everybody should be fired up. Did you see Vince Evans tweet Vince Evans? Who is he, by the way?

[Eugene Scott]

Vince Evans is my executive director.

[Simone Sanders]

I just wanna be clear. Vince Evans is a friend of mine. I know him.

[Eugene Scott]

Vince is the executive director of the cbc. He tweeted on Sunday. Look at that. He did a long tweet. More than 240 characters asking why your

[Simone Sanders]

old boss, one of my old bosses

[Eugene Scott]

yesterday, Bernie Sanders has been silent on the assault on black political representation across the South. Now, I talked to a lot of lefties and they were like, Rossi bother than Bernie Sanders. Well, Bernie Sanders has a very big platform.

[Simone Sanders]

Yes. And it talks about inequality. I mean, his whole thing is about how we lived in a rigged economy kept in place by a system of corrupt campaign finance.

[Eugene Scott]

Come on. You wrote it.

[Simone Sanders]

And I took a couple times. I did, I did, I did. And how the inequality in our systems show up in various spaces and places, from healthcare to education to voting to business to voting. And I don't think we can talk about the inequities in our system without talking about race. They wanna tell us it's not about race.

[Eugene Scott]

It is.

[Simone Sanders]

They're like, why are we trying to make it about race? We ain't making about race.

[Eugene Scott]

Y' all make it about race.

[Simone Sanders]

They are carving up black districts. No, but they Carving up districts of white people.

[Eugene Scott]

Now, see, this is about.

[Simone Sanders]

It's about race.

[Eugene Scott]

The reporter in me is gonna go back. Why do you think your old boss has been a little quiet on it? I think a lot of people have a lot of questions. There are a lot of.

[Simone Sanders]

I think people need to ask Senator Sanders to be quiet.

[Eugene Scott]

See, that's called a spin, ladies and gentlemen.

[Simone Sanders]

That's called a dodge. But you know what? To your point, this is something that, frankly, what people were talking about when his first presidential run and his second presidential run, I would say that Senator Sanders does understand that the economy and race is intertwined and. And that there is, like, synergy and sinister things going on here. Why he has not spoken to it. Like, I blame the staff. Okay. But again, the buck stops with the member. And so, you know, we don't really do elected officials, but they're interested in convo. Sir, we are happy to have you come through. We could talk about it.

[Eugene Scott]

It'll be a long interview.

[Simone Sanders]

This might be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This will be a bonus episode.

[Eugene Scott]

Exactly.

[Simone Sanders]

But at the end of the day, long story short, I think that they're trying to steal election. This is one of the ways they're trying to do it in Tennessee. No, they're not gonna take over polling places. Right. Or they're gonna. Well, well, well, they might be filled with currently, but I think that it's not gonna be like we saw on January 6th.

[Eugene Scott]

Right.

[Simone Sanders]

Okay. They've gotten more sophisticated again in Tennessee. Not only did they get rid of the district, like carve up the district that has majority black voters and scattered the black voters in the different districts, they also passed a law that said they don't have to notify people when their polling places change. So now when you go to the ballot box in Tennessee this November, you could be going to the wrong polling place and nobody will tell you. That is how they steal election, folks.

[Eugene Scott]

It's making it harder to vote and making it confusing to vote. We saw this in Texas as well during this primary where Dallas, there were shenanigans with Dallas. And so I think the thing that is really important for folks to remember is that it may not feel aggressive. Right. And when you talk to experts about backsliding and democracy, they talk about it not feeling. It's not gonna look like it does on tv. Right. It's not. No armed guards. Not gonna rush in and stop you from doing something. It's the little things that we have to pay attention to. And like I like to say, cause I stole it from the Internet. If they gonna shanann, they gonna shanann again. Correct. Now there's a lot more to say about this and some context we can put it around. We've asked historian and author Ibram X Kendi to join us to do that. He'll be right here, right after a quick break.

[Simone Sanders]

If you your parent or spouse served in the military, you could join our family. Our members saved an average of $70 a month on auto insurance when they switched. Tap the banner or visit usaa.com join today to check your eligibility. Eligibility restrictions apply. You're more than just one thing. You're the boss. Hey Google, what time is my meeting with Tim today? The athlete that class wrecks me. The ringleader. And we're good and always their mom. Everyone in the all new Mazda CX5 more to move every side of you. Learn [e-mail] Google is a trademark of Google LLC. Sequences shortened and simulated out on the road it helps to have a partner like the Love's Rewards app. Download Love's Rewards and get great deals like a free Love's coffee or fountain drink. Just buy any four, any size and

[Eugene Scott]

get the fifth one free. Love's Rewards.

[Simone Sanders]

Save and earn at every turn. Terms apply.

[Eugene Scott]

See website for details.

[Simone Sanders]

Welcome back everyone. And welcome to Dr. Ibram X. Kendi, historian, international bestselling author and founder of Howard University's Institute for Advanced Study, which is an interdisciplinary research enterprise examining global racism. Seems very timely, right?

[Eugene Scott]

Someone had to do it.

[Simone Sanders]

Okay. His new book is called Chain of the Origins of Our Authoritarian Age. Again, quite timely. Thank you for coming to the group chat. I feel the need to read from a passage from the Chain of Ideas to set the tone here if I can. Doctor.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

Okay, okay.

[Simone Sanders]

I know, right? It's the dramatics. At times, I have felt the tug of this great replacement theory giving me the ability to empathize with people who have been led to see me, a black man, as their replacer. I can see their humanity because I can recall the times when I felt my livelihood was being threatened by demographic change. I felt myself getting angry at times, my unchecked bigotry feeding my anger. But then I saw politicians manufacturing and manipulating my anger. I did not want my prince to be my prison. I wanted to imprison my privilege to free my power.

[Eugene Scott]

Sir.

[Simone Sanders]

Well, Dan, a word.

[Eugene Scott]

Explain what you mean by that.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

Well, I thought it was important to share, really, how much great replacement theory has mutated. So even as it was primarily originally an idea that suggested, let's say, black people were Replacing white people. It's actually mutated to say women are replacing men. Queer people are replacing heterosexuals. Immigrants obviously are replacing citizens. Muslims are replacing Christians. And I'm a person who was raised in a Christian household. I'm a man. I'm a heterosexual. You know, I'm a citizen. And so I could think about and really empathize with even white people who've been misled into believing that they are being replaced. But then I think it's also important for them to see how I was able to overcome the manipulation, because I saw who was trying to manipulate me and why.

[Eugene Scott]

The word that sticks out to me, and even before you started answering, I started thinking about it was empathy. And I feel like marginalized people always have to have a lot of empathy. You have to understand why your oppressor would do it. Right. The oppressor does not care what the oppressed are thinking about being oppressed. And it actually. The Great Replacement Theory. And all of this makes me think of. I was in college, had a very good friend who we were sitting in her house and we were watching the news, and there's a news story about how this country's gonna be a majority minority, bombed by whatever, the year 2042.

[Simone Sanders]

Yes.

[Eugene Scott]

Thank you. There we go. And she said, oh, that's scary. This is a white girl. I said, an immigrant, though. I said, why? She said, you don't think that the people who are in power right now are gonna be pissed and scared now? This is in 2009, maybe 2010, and that was the first time I'd ever heard someone talk about it in that way. She obviously wasn't calling it the Great Replacement Theory, but the idea that this would happen and how people would react to it is really important. And I wonder why your book is called Chain of Ideas and not the Great Replacement. What's the chain that has been created and that we want people to know about?

[Simone Sanders]

There's a lot of links in the chain, correct?

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

There are. And the title actually comes from this French Enlightenment thinker who was talking to the French monarchy and was like, in the late 1700s and was like, you know, chaining people with iron is an old way of controlling people. And he said, a more enlightened despot will chain people by their own ideas. This was Servant his name. And to me, it's indicative of how Great Replacement Theory is being used. People already have racist and ideas, sexist ideas, homophobic ideas, Islamophobic ideas. So what these politicians, what these authoritarians are doing is making them believe that those people that they already fear are coming to take over and destroy them.

[Eugene Scott]

Yeah.

[Simone Sanders]

I mean, damn. Stressed I am. No, I'm stressed because it's like so real in your. You are. I think a lot of times we don't. Because we're in it so much. People don't. We don't take a step back to think about it. But it is all about ideas that have been socialized, that have been normalized. It's about the way we talk about things. It has become commonplace. And I don't think people realize that they are literally in shackles.

[Eugene Scott]

Well, it makes me think, as black kids, our parents have to supplement our black history. Right?

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

Yes.

[Eugene Scott]

Almost every black kid I knew had that yellow book. It was like 1001 things to know about black History. Muhammad Ali was on the COVID You had a job.

[Simone Sanders]

Yes, we had that at the house. Correct.

[Eugene Scott]

Everybody had it at the house.

[Simone Sanders]

I also modeled for African Garden Bar, print magazine.

[Eugene Scott]

I need that picture.

[Simone Sanders]

I will bring the photos. My mama, Terry Sanders, was getting paid early off us. Okay.

[Eugene Scott]

As she knows.

[Simone Sanders]

But also indoctrinating us in history.

[Eugene Scott]

Correct? Correct. And so, you know, the supplementing had to happen. Something my dad always said was, and still to this day says is the smartest thing after slavery, that the land owning rich white men did was to convince everybody else that the black slaves that were being freed and that were going to be be a part of the economy. Now in a different way, we're gonna be able to get jobs and have to be paid for those jobs. We're the enemy. And that convincing the poor white people, convincing white women who didn't own land or white men who didn't own land, that at the end of the day, that's the enemy. Meanwhile, you have what we now would think about as oligarchs and the billionaires of our time, the folks like Elon Musk, who are actually the ones, and Jeff Bezos. Yes. Who are actually the ones taking from everybody. And it's a sleight of hand that is like so important to understanding this moment, understanding your book and understanding really your theory of how this country's working right now.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

Yeah. I mean, if you're a racist white oligarch and let's say you're stealing from white people and black people, how do you continue to engage in those robberies? Will you convince those white people you're robbing that they're being robbed by black people?

[Eugene Scott]

I am prejudiced against because I'm a rich white billionaire.

[Simone Sanders]

The great replacement is not only real it's the realest thing there is, and it's provably true.

[Eugene Scott]

You replace us, do not replace us.

[Simone Sanders]

Do not replace us.

[Eugene Scott]

Jews will not replace us.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

And so then they turn on the very people who are also being robbed and then allow the people who are robbing them to continue to rob them. And the more angry they get because they're losing, the more they blame the people who are also. And so it becomes this vicious cycle, I think, that we're seeing in our politics.

[Eugene Scott]

How do you pull people out of that? That's terrible.

[Simone Sanders]

That is absolutely terrible. And also, would you say that that is what Trumpism has done?

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

It has. I mean, part of the way that Trumpism operates is Trump has sought to make people, particularly white people, particularly white men, believe that they're losing out, that they're losing their nation, they're losing their livelihood, they're losing their status. And convincing them that they need a protector, they need a savior. And then he stands up as their protector and savior. And so that's where the march of authoritarianism comes in. Because that's when he says, you know what? In order to protect you and save you, I have to do away with your civil liberties, your rights, and everyone else's.

[Eugene Scott]

I wanna stick on Trump a little bit because it feels like every once in a while it becomes clear to people that the emperor doesn't have on any clothes. Right. So we're in this war with Iran. Gas prices, prices are high as hell.

[Simone Sanders]

Beef is up 16% now. It was 15% last week. Beef is up 16%.

[Eugene Scott]

You know, health care is astronomical. All these things are happening. And it feels like also a moment where those same white people that have been tricked by Trump and Trumpism, and largely, I would say, also Republicans over decades about who the bad guy is, are starting to pay attention. I think on your show, you guys had a Megyn Kelly SOT where these voters called in and they were like, we're gonna lose the midterms. They're not doing anything. This is terrible.

[Simone Sanders]

Yeah. They said gas is up. They knew what was going on.

[Eugene Scott]

So they're starting to understand.

[Simone Sanders]

They don't want the war. They want him to focus on America's needs and wants and gas prices and housing and the economy, and he's not doing that. We're gonna lose the election in November.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

All of them.

[Simone Sanders]

Trust me, if he continues this route, the gas prices are so high, you know, working two jobs, we can still barely make it.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

Right now, I'm averaging between 1900 and

[Simone Sanders]

20, $100 a week in diesel fuel and it's just killing the drivers. It's going to put a lot of drivers out of business. But they haven't turned on them.

[Eugene Scott]

But they have to be. It takes intense pain for some people to understand things are bad for everybody. And that's what it feels like is happening. There is an awakening happening. But do you feel that awakening has any political consequences? Like, does it go from like, oh, I'm mad the gas is too high to, oh, this person did it?

[Simone Sanders]

I don't think so. But what does the doctor believe?

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

I mean, it's hard to say. Cause the fact of the matter is, in many ways, these people are conceptually trapped. And what I mean by that is, once you are convinced that this person is your protector, then the more you lose, the more you hurt, the more you look to that protector to help you and save you. And that's why Great Replacement Theory is so devastating politically. Right. Because it literally traps people. And that's one of the reasons why I think we have wondered, when are these people going to leave?

[Eugene Scott]

Yeah, when are you gonna wake up?

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

But I don't think we understand that people have been chained by their own ideas.

[Simone Sanders]

So how does this dovetail with what's happening right now, with what I would call the assault on black political power in this? Because you have something happens at the Supreme Court and then these state legislatures move with record speed to not just erase black political representation. It's not about black elected officials. I think this is about black voters and black people. And now people are just saying the quiet part out loud. You've got legislatures being like, look, I like Jim Clyburn, but he don't represent the state. The state is conservative and we all need to be conservative. Okay, well, you're not saying just get rid of Jim Clyburn. You're diluting the voting power of black people in the district that he represents in South Carolina. So they don't have the ability to choose the elected officials of their choice. That seems quite specific when we think

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

about the nucleus of Great Replacement Theory. It's this notion that anti white racism is on the rise, that white people apparently are the primary victims of of racism. And the way they make that case is they invert anti racism, which is to say they argue that those policies, those laws that seek to create equal opportunity or equity for everyone are actually about snatching rights and abilities and opportunities from white people. And that those policies are racist and that we need to do away with those policies and those practices. And they're inverting. They've been inverting feminism for a long time, claiming it's anti male. They're doing the same thing with because

[Eugene Scott]

they see rights as pie. Right? So if I get a larger slice of pie, you have less pie. But that's not how rights in America

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

works well, and that's why the first link in the chain of ideas in the book is organized into these 10 links that undergird great replacement theory. The first is zero sum. So the idea that as black people gain, apparently white people lose, when in actuality, typically black people have gained as a result of these civil and voting and equitable policies. And the majority of white people have actually gained too.

[Simone Sanders]

White women are the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action in this country. Dr. Candy, we just gonna have to just take a quick break. We're gonna stop right here. We're gonna take a quick break. More with Dr. Kendra.

[Eugene Scott]

USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

Like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance.

[Eugene Scott]

With usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply.

[Simone Sanders]

Out on the road, it's nice to have a partner who can help you

[Eugene Scott]

make the most of your journey.

[Simone Sanders]

A partner like the Love's Rewards app.

[Eugene Scott]

With Love's Rewards along for the ride,

[Simone Sanders]

you earn points on food, fuel, drinks and more every time you scan.

[Eugene Scott]

Then you can spend those points at

[Simone Sanders]

Love's just like cash.

[Eugene Scott]

So every stop is even more rewarding.

[Simone Sanders]

Download the app today and watch the points roll in mile after mile. Love's Rewards save and earn at every turn. Terms apply.

[Eugene Scott]

See website for details.

[Simone Sanders]

Traditional home security only alerts you after a break in.

[Eugene Scott]

And that's too late.

[Simone Sanders]

Simplisafe is changing that stop.

[Eugene Scott]

This is Simplisafe. Police are on the way.

[Simone Sanders]

We don't just alert, we stop crime before it starts. Simplisafe plans Starting around a dollar a day, save 50% on your new system with professional monitoring at SimpliSafe.com sxm or

[Eugene Scott]

with promo code sxm outdoor deterrence requires a Simplisafe Active Guard Outdoor protection plan

[Simone Sanders]

starting at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com licenses for alarm license information. Tennessee2012. Senator Cory Booker. We had him on our show on Monday and I made the point. I said, this is an assault on black political power. He said, look, they want us to talk about. They want to make it black and white he said, but this is an assault on democracy. And I'm like, yes, I agree, but they are using black people to do it. And he's like, yeah, but they want to divide us. And he did. He was making the point that they wanted to divide us.

[Eugene Scott]

He understand the point that he made,

[Simone Sanders]

but that black people, when black people have fallen for rights in this country, those rights have always. That fight has always benefited everyone else. And I'm like, yes, but is that the argument we should be making or should like? I feel like it's important to point out that this is an assault on black people.

[Eugene Scott]

So to me, it feels like this is a politician finding a palatable way to talk about a concept that is hard for people to talk about.

[Simone Sanders]

Is it hard, which is, I don't

[Eugene Scott]

think, for certain people. For certain people to talk about. Because you have to accept that you are someone who holds these ideas. How to be anti racist is all about that, right? Like, that you are someone who, even if you are not going out and like, making laws and, you know, pouring hot coffee on black people, just trying to eat eggs at the damn counter, right? If you're not doing that, you're doing other things. You hold these things. And I think, frankly, it is for politicians who have to get votes from some of these folks, right, statewide or people who might be running for president one day, again, like, they have to zoom out because having a specific conversation about what's happening to black people is still politically dangerous.

[Simone Sanders]

As a former strategist, I. As a recovering strategist. A former strategist, clearly, I might, after this cycle, I'mma never be a strategist again. You'll be fired. I'm only gonna be a host. I will be fired. Cause I'll be in there like, no telling black people are under assault. I just feel like, yes, I understand that, but these. This is not even how it was two years ago, right? We are not in a moment where we were even in five years ago. We are at the brink. Maybe I'm just too in it, okay? My therapist tells me I need to zoom out sometimes to turn the TV off and I need to find some hobbies. That's why I'm doing phone cases and whimsical stuff and everything. Doing my nails and everything right now, Dr. But I just feel like this moment is very different. So we have to name the thing. They are literally trying to take us back to 1878.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

I agree. We need to name the thing. And part of the challenge, even to your point that I think Politicians face, and even we face in talking about this is many white Americans, particularly low and middle income white Americans, don't know their own history. Which is to say they don't know that so much of what they actually have now is the result of black struggle. And they don't know.

[Simone Sanders]

Give them an example.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

Give an example of public schools in the south was largely a creation of black politicians. So at the very moment where you had these neo confederates claiming that black politicians were destroying white lives, those very politicians were bringing free public schools to the vast majority of black and white people in the south who didn't have it during the enslaving era, or even something like the abolition of indentured servitude and on and on. And so I think that's part of the challenge. We don't teach history, we don't teach black history. Working class white people don't learn their history. So then when a white person hears us talking about the erosion of black rights, they don't realize that that's ultimately gonna come for them.

[Eugene Scott]

I think I wanna look at your dedication in the book. Cause this struck me. You dedicate the book to humanity, to what links us. After everything you've researched, after the books you've written, after the conversations you've had, after all that, you know, that you focus on and that like, is bouncing around in there, do you still believe that our humanity is what links us or do you believe that that should be what links us?

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

I believe it's what should. And what I mean by should is I think we should commonly recognize what I call in chain of ideas, the chain of humanity. And so I try to, even as most of the book chronicles how great replacement theory causes us to believe that racialized and gendered and sexual and religious groups are fundamentally different, are fundamentally at political, that as we're gaining, they're losing. As we're becoming more powerful, they're becoming less powerful. And that we should be at political or cultural war. The construct of the chain of humanity allows us to see that even in our differences, we're similar. So you may dance differently than I

[Eugene Scott]

do, but we're both dancing, we're not dancing. Somebody on the 1 3.

[Simone Sanders]

You may dance differently, but you still move. You know what I mean?

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

Yeah.

[Simone Sanders]

Y' all may sing a little different, you may be off key, but there's a song.

[Eugene Scott]

Why are you looking at me when he says because you cannot sing She's a Butler.

[Simone Sanders]

To be clear, he's a butler.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

As you become more powerful, I become more powerful.

[Eugene Scott]

Yes.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

Right. And so then we can build political solidarity based on that and have the capacity to fight the oligarchs.

[Simone Sanders]

Okay, here's the thing. The oligarchs, that's my point. Because as you become more powerful, I become more powerful. Because as the oligarchs become more powerful and we using the term oligarchs, it's just the richest people in this country. The chasm between the richest people in this country and the poorest people in this country is the largest it has ever been. We talk about on this show a lot like I talk about the good billionaires and bad billionaires and how in

[Eugene Scott]

my opinion, I think many of them

[Simone Sanders]

are in the same bucket. Yes. Eugene says they're all in the same bucket. I think not all of them, vast majority of them. And there are a lot of people, frankly, out there in this country that agree with you that's like, oh, you know, the people out there that say there should be no billionaires. And I'm like, well, give me an opportunity. I think I'd be a good billionaire. But would I? Is there such a thing as a good billionaire?

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

Well, let me say this. I am a professor at an HBCU at Howard, and there is a billionaire who've been giving billions of dollars to HBCUs, but that billionaire is few and far between. So as a scholar, I try not to say something absolute like it's impossible. Never. But I mean, it's highly unlikely. And what we see billionaires doing right now, we see oligarchs doing right now is using these, some of the most dangerous theories known to humanity to ensure that they can continue to hoard wealth and power, which is then leading to mass shootings, genocides, famines all over the world.

[Simone Sanders]

Yeah. You are on a college campus on a regular basis talking to, I mean, I think the next, the future. Ibram X Kendi. Right. Like you are teaching the folks who will be the thought leaders and frankly, I think the politicians and the business folks of the. What are they saying and what do you say to them about this moment?

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

I tell them the truth. Unvarnished, direct. And what's interesting about young people is they typically are more open minded to that. Right. Even if it challenges the way they see the world or the way they see themselves. They have this capacity to ingest and transform. And I think that's just the beauty of being young and open minded. And I think those of us who are older, we need to figure out a way to keep our minds open, keep our belief that we can Radically transform the world because young people still have that belief.

[Eugene Scott]

So the children are our future.

[Simone Sanders]

That's what Whitney said.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

Well, I think they will say to us, well, don't depend on us. Y' all need to change some stuff first, right?

[Eugene Scott]

Why wait? Why wait?

[Simone Sanders]

Why wait? Do it now.

[Eugene Scott]

Fix it now. Damn it.

[Simone Sanders]

Oh, my goodness, Dr. Kennedy, thank you so much. This is like.

[Eugene Scott]

This was great.

[Simone Sanders]

Ooh, if I had edges, they'd be snatched.

[Eugene Scott]

I'm stressed. My edges are snatched.

[Simone Sanders]

They're very stressed out. But we appreciate you. Well, well, well. Dr. Kendi. Dr. Ibram X. Kendi. He was amazing. His book is so good. You know what? For the people that might Google the reviews, somebody. Somebody gonna say to me the other day, I don't think people like this book. And I was just like, well, I don't think people read the book. I think certain people don't know well, because the truth. The truth. Sometimes the truth don't like who tell it.

[Eugene Scott]

Truth hurts. Come on now.

[Simone Sanders]

Hit dogs will holler.

[Eugene Scott]

Okay? Loudly, very loudly, every time.

[Simone Sanders]

It really did knock me back on my heels. When you said that the people are. That the way in which they're chained is not actual chained, but they are mentally chained. I was just like, this is profound.

[Eugene Scott]

The through line for me was empathy. And that's where he started with the first question was talking about needing empathy. And it is both incumbent and automatic that the. Like I said, the oppressed has to have empathy. Cause you have to try to figure out why someone would do something to you. And it reminds me of, like, all the different quotes post Civil War, post civil rights movement, where white people would say to black people, if I was in your shoes, I would have been done a nat turn. Or I would have, you know, I would have never sat on the back of the bus.

[Simone Sanders]

Or they think they would just. They don't know. They're talking about.

[Eugene Scott]

Have no damn idea.

[Simone Sanders]

Jay Z got a line. Everybody tried to tell you how to do it, but they never did it.

[Eugene Scott]

Exactly.

[Simone Sanders]

It's like everyone has commentary about something that they've seen, that they've heard about, that they've read. And they can always talk about what they might do, but I would never

[Eugene Scott]

let so and so.

[Simone Sanders]

Exactly. But are you in it? And to your point, you know, one of the last interviews that Dr. King ever gave was on an NBC interview. And he was basically saying that what he realized post Voting Rights act in 1965. Okay. Cause post1965 was a different fight. We talked about economic inequality. We Was trying to. We was talking about some different stuff. We talked about fair housing, okay? It was giving Rainbow Coalition, okay? Sanitation workers in Memphis, y' all better check y' all history out now.

[Eugene Scott]

Look it up.

[Simone Sanders]

Look it up. Dr. King said he realized that in the south that most white people were actually responding to the brutality that they saw and not necessarily the actual plight and the inequalities and the injustice. He realized that most people were responding to what they were seeing on television, the imagery. But the hearts and minds were not changed. Were not changed.

[Eugene Scott]

Yeah.

[Simone Sanders]

And that was something he was wrestling with.

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

I think we are in a new era, a new phase of the struggle, where we have moved from a struggle

[Eugene Scott]

for decency, which characterized our struggle for

[Dr. Ibram X. Kendi]

10 or 12 years, to a struggle for genuine equality. And this is where we are getting the resistance, because there was never any intention to go this far, people.

[Simone Sanders]

And when Dr. Kendi talks about the origins of Great Replacement Theory, but also how it's showing up here now, I do think, to your point about how people have to experience it, what they are experiencing right now is that I don't like how I am being treated. I don't like what the government is doing to me. I don't like. Like, insert. I don't like the gas prices are high. I don't like that. Oh, my neighbor that I've known for a long time got snatched up when they're not a criminal.

[Eugene Scott]

Hello.

[Simone Sanders]

You know what I'm saying? But are the hearts and minds changing? And maybe they're not, but maybe it's okay that the hearts and minds aren't changing. But I just. I'm skeptical.

[Eugene Scott]

It makes me think of this. I'm gonna mess up her name. So I'm not gonna say it. It's this old white lady with glasses. Years ago, remember? She wouldn't. She used to go on talk shows and talk about race. And one of the things she asked white people, she was like, anybody in this room, would you want to be black? If you, as a white person, would

[Simone Sanders]

be happy to receive the same treatment that our black citizens do in this society? Please stand. Nobody's standing here that says very plainly that you know what's happening.

[Eugene Scott]

You know, you don't want it for you.

[Simone Sanders]

I want to know why you're so willing to accept it or to allow it to happen for others.

[Eugene Scott]

And that is that aspect of it. It's always been there. And some of these thought processes have been a part of our culture for

[Simone Sanders]

so long, but they think that being they is in the people that believe this. And I would argue it would be non black people in this country, because I think that there are white people that think this way, but I also think that there are non white people that also would say, I would never want to be black. So it's not just white versus black. I think that there's a rainbow coalition of people saying they don't want to be black. Yes, that is some black. Come on. Well, clock it.

[Eugene Scott]

I'm just saying, y' all know some of it. I ain't gonna say no names.

[Simone Sanders]

That is a function of. That means that the mental chains have worked.

[Eugene Scott]

Yeah.

[Simone Sanders]

That the mind games have worked. Because the idea that, like, oh, I wouldn't want to be black. To be clear, some of y' all worse off than us, right? What you mean you don't wanna be black?

[Eugene Scott]

Like, when I'm in a store and you follow me, baby.

[Simone Sanders]

I'm following you, baby. You need to be looking at Joe. Don't worry about Kesha. You need to be looking at Joe. Joe was a thief.

[Eugene Scott]

Okay? Joe stole all your money.

[Simone Sanders]

Joe stole your money.

[Eugene Scott]

Eli took your money.

[Simone Sanders]

But that is. I just think that why we have to have such a frank conversation and, like, interrogate the thought and name the thing. And I do think that people need the space to be able to raise these kind of things and not feel as though that. You know, I think we both grew up in various spaces and places where sometimes we were the only black kid and sometimes we were. Well, actually, a lot of times I was the only black kid. And I think that that was also true for you. And there are a lot of people that we grew up with that might be on the other side of this conversation. And I think that the ability to have that conversation to get to a place of empathy is actually very important in this day and age. Because we not gonna get past this moment if we are not able to find empathy. We're not gonna work through it if we can't find empathy and get on a similar page.

[Eugene Scott]

None of us is free unless all of us is free, as they say

[Simone Sanders]

right now, we all in mental change.

[Eugene Scott]

Okay. Locke and some men. Some others. Okay. Okay. Great episode. Oh, my God.

[Simone Sanders]

Thank you so much, Raiders.

[Eugene Scott]

Review us.

[Simone Sanders]

Review us.

[Eugene Scott]

Nice things.

[Simone Sanders]

Don't leave bad things in the comments.

[Eugene Scott]

No, we don't want. Cause she reads them and then y' all make her do her nails more. She does more of these, honestly.

[Simone Sanders]

And you know what? It's just driving my therapy.

[Eugene Scott]

It's not good. You can subscribe to MSNow Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNow podcasts ad free as a subscriber. You'll also get exclusive bonus content. All episodes of Clockett are also available on YouTube. Visit ms.dotnow.

[Simone Sanders]

clockett to watch Clockett is produced by Franny Kelly. Our associate producer is Iggy Monda. Additional production support from Brittany Ruff, Adrianna Thomas, Elijah Gibbs Jones, Malcolm Thomas, Colette Holcomb and Lynn Hilton.

[Eugene Scott]

Our director is Renee Amro, Lou Visconti and Emily Gaines or Archer control room operators. Our stage manager is Scott Fowler and utility is Tim Canalicchio. Our lighting director is Pat Keys and our Robocam operator is Alex Jones. Our prompter operator is Daniel Tolbert. Deriky Rice is our video operator. John Deere and Jeff Edelman are our technical production managers. Chris Wan is our operations manager.

[Simone Sanders]

Many thanks to Alana Lee, Leah Jasenyo and Julia Squilla.

[Eugene Scott]

Our audio engineers are Hazid Ben, Ahmed Fared, Bob Mallory, Matt Bauer and Brian Gessner.

[Simone Sanders]

Katie Lau is the senior manager of audio production. Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNow Audio and Madeline Herringer is senior vice president in charge of audio, digital and long form.

[Eugene Scott]

Our theme music is by Jesse McGinty

[Simone Sanders]

and we're your hosts.

[Eugene Scott]

Like are we?

[Simone Sanders]

For now.

[Eugene Scott]

For now. Thanks everybody.

[Simone Sanders]

Bye. See you next week. Thank you. If you your parent or spouse served in the military, you could join our family. Our members saved an average of $70 a month on auto insurance when they switched. Tap the banner or visit usaa.comjointoday to check your eligibility restrictions apply.