We’re Not Dead, Baby!, with David Plouffe

Summary

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki

Episode: “We’re Not Dead, Baby!”, with David Plouffe

Date: November 6, 2025
Summary by Podcast Expert

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Blueprint centers on Democrats’ sweeping victories in the most recent election night—a dramatic turnaround from losses in the prior year. Host Jen Psaki is joined by veteran Democratic strategist Liz Smith and David Plouffe, Barack Obama’s 2008 campaign manager, for an in-depth discussion. They break down what the results mean, which lessons are useful (and which are misguided), and debate the essential ingredients for future Democratic success against the backdrop of an emboldened Republican Party and Donald Trump’s ongoing influence.

The tone is energetic but realistic: the guests temper Democratic exuberance with candid acknowledgement of the work ahead, focusing on big-tent strategy, economic message discipline, modern campaign tactics, and the hard realities of redistricting and candidate recruitment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Democratic Victories: The Scope and Meaning

[01:15–06:19]

• Jen Psaki recaps the major Democratic victories:
  • Abigail Spanberger wins Virginia governorship by almost 15 points (the widest in 50 years), becoming the state’s first female governor.
  • Ghazala Hashmi becomes the first Muslim candidate elected statewide as Virginia’s lieutenant governor.
  • Democrats win a supermajority in the Virginia legislature, setting up a redistricting fight.
  • Mikie Sherrill wins in New Jersey by 13 points—exceeding polls’ predictions.
  • Zoran Mamdani, a progressive, wins New York’s mayoral race, beating Trump-endorsed Andrew Cuomo.
  • Democrats hold onto a state assembly seat in a Trump-won NY district; Prop 50 passes by huge margins.
  • In Mississippi, Democrats flip three legislative seats, denying GOP a supermajority.
  • Pennsylvania voters keep the Democratic Supreme Court majority, despite huge outside spending.

Memorable quote:

“Last night was an absolute ass kicking shellacking for...Democrats of Republicans.” (Jen Psaki, [03:14])

• David Plouffe highlights this as one of the most significant nights since the 2006-08 Democratic waves and credits both the candidates and economic discontent with propelling the wins.

Quote:

“You kind of have to go back all the way to like ’06–’08 to have that kind of night.” (David Plouffe, [05:02])

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2. Don’t Overlearn (Or Mislearn) the Lessons

[06:46–09:02]

• Jen pushes back on simplistic pundit takes, noting it’s misleading to cast someone like Mamdani or Spanberger as "the future" to the exclusion of others.
• Both guests stress Democrats must avoid “irrational exuberance” and must not assume victory means their challenges are over.

Quotes:

“What unifies Mamdani and Sherrill and Spanberger...is that these were Democrats who were focused on cost of living.” (David Plouffe, [09:05])
“There’s a little bit of irrational exuberance right now...It’s like, we’re back, baby. And it’s like, no—not really.” (Liz Smith, [08:47])
“We’re not dead, so that’s good.” (Jen Psaki, [08:59])

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3. The Big Tent, Authenticity, and Message Discipline

[09:05–13:43]

• Plouffe argues the party’s strength is in its diversity—Democratic Socialists, centrists, even some “right of center” Democrats should have a place.
• The common thread among winners? Sticking to affordability, economic pain, and cost of living, communicated in new, social-first ways.
• Modern campaign skills now prioritize short-form video content and authenticity over oratory or traditional media interviews.
• Liz Smith notes region-specific authenticity: what works for a Mamdani in NYC may not work for Spanberger in Virginia, and vice versa.

Quote:

“You can never go wrong with...meeting voters where they are.” (David Plouffe, [17:41])

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4. Winning by Standing Out and Calling Out Your Own Party

[18:11–19:36]

• Both guests cite the importance of candidates signaling independence—not being afraid to criticize both parties when warranted.
• Spanberger and Sherrill’s track records (breaking with Biden, opposing “defund the police”) enhanced their credibility in moderate districts.

Quote:

“You can’t just fight the Republicans. You need to call out your own party when your own party is falling short.” (Liz Smith, [19:11])

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5. Campaign Tactics and Digital Communication

[11:30–12:58, 27:25–31:49]

• Winners used TikTok, YouTube, viral video, and “happy warrior” energy to connect with voters—a stark change from traditional campaign tactics.
• Mamdani set turnout records with a campaign focused relentlessly on affordability, not an array of progressive social issues.

Quote:

“You’ve gotta be creating content every day...You gotta think very visual.” (David Plouffe, [10:15])

• Both Plouffe and Smith note the DSA boogeyman tactic by Republicans—lumping all Democrats together with the leftmost figure—is nothing new. Effective candidates distance themselves as needed.

Quote:

“If you are an effective politician...you should have no problem saying, ‘I disagree with Zoran Mamdani.’” (Liz Smith, [24:29])

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6. Redistricting and Playing Hardball

[33:49–37:22]

• Democrats must use every available tool—especially redistricting—because the GOP will. It’s a math exercise: “where can we make changes?”
• Both Plouffe and Smith argue that until independent redistricting is law, Democrats can’t afford to be “holier than thou” about the process.

Quotes:

“In every state that can produce an additional potential Democratic district, we have to seize that opportunity.” (David Plouffe, [34:36])
“Until then, we gotta use all the tools at our disposal.” (Liz Smith, [36:29])

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7. Candidate Quality, Recruitment, and the 2028 Horizon

[31:49–32:16, 38:01–45:53]

• To build a durable majority and win tough districts, the party needs “out of the box” and region-attuned candidates—e.g., local musicians, firefighters, farmers, non-traditional backgrounds.
• Potential presidential candidates must be introspective (“spend a lot of time with yourself”), define what they actually offer, and prepare for a grueling, high-stakes process.
• Excitement, authenticity, and connecting on major economic and societal issues are non-negotiables for future nominees.

Quotes:

“For me, it always starts with: right now, spend a lot of time with yourself. Like, do you really want to do this?” (David Plouffe, [39:05])
“We are ripe for another Barack Obama type figure...someone who runs against the status quo, inspires people, has big ideas.” (Liz Smith, [42:23])

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8. Hopeful Paths and Underdog Opportunities

[42:41–47:23]

• Plouffe and Smith see opportunity in places many have written off, like Iowa and Ohio, particularly if Democrats run standout, authentic candidates who are distinct from the party stereotype and focus on local economic pain points.
• Winning “by losing less” in deep-red areas can tip statewide races when combined with strong urban/suburban turnout.

Quotes:

“We’re gonna try and win everywhere. We’re gonna embrace a lot of different types of candidates from background to ideology to approach. But that’s what’s required.” (David Plouffe, [44:53])
“Candidates with ... different types of backgrounds and the right sort of issue stew in their states...could really rise to the top.” (Liz Smith, [46:11])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Democratic exuberance:

  “We’re not dead. So that’s good.” (Jen Psaki, [08:59])

• On building a broad coalition:

  “As a party we have to welcome all comers...that’s kind of the unifying thread.” (David Plouffe, [09:05])

• On Republican attacks:

  “Great, they’ve got one more boogeyman...If you are focused on regional issues...you’re not trying to adopt the DSA platform.” (Liz Smith, [24:29])

• On candidate authenticity:

  “You should have no problem saying, ‘I disagree with Zoran Mamdani. I am a different type of Democrat.’” (Liz Smith, [24:29])

• On the importance of modern campaign tactics:

  “My campaign, first and foremost is making sure I am reaching people on YouTube, on TikTok, on Instagram, on Reddit.” (David Plouffe, [27:25])

• Hope for the future:

  “There are places we can win that people have written off.” (Liz Smith, [43:50])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Major Democratic Victories Recap: [01:15–06:19]
• Lessons from the Wins/Overinterpreting Them: [06:46–09:02]
• Big Tent and Message Discipline: [09:05–13:43]
• Lessons on Authenticity and Standing Out: [18:11–19:36]
• Modern Campaigning: [11:30–12:58, 27:25–31:49]
• Handling Republican Attacks & Internal Diversity: [24:29–27:23]
• Redistricting & Party Hardball: [33:49–37:22]
• Presidential Candidate Advice and Inspiration: [38:01–42:41]
• Underdog Races and Pathways to Victory: [42:41–47:23]

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Conclusion

The episode strikes a balance between the uplift of a huge Democratic electoral night and sober analysis of what’s needed for sustainable victory. The panel emphasizes economic message discipline, digital fluency, authenticity, and a broad, welcoming party that values candidates who fit their districts. The hard realities of gerrymandering and the imperative to fight everywhere are front and center, as is the need for both generational and geographic renewal in Democratic politics.

“We’re not dead, baby!”—but the work for a lasting majority has only begun.

Transcript

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[Jen Psaki]

We have a lot to talk about today. It's always fun when there's results and then you can talk about the path forward in the next elections. So I am joined today by Liz Smith, who is of course a Democratic strategist. She's done a zillion races, has written a book about politics and we've been talking every week. And also David Plouffe, who I will still think as my of as my boss until probably the day I die when I'm however old I am. But he has done so many races. He obviously was the campaign manager for Barack Obama's campaign in 2008 when he won that election. He knows a thing or two about helping candidates who are underestimated win and is always a good tough talker too. They both are. Okay, so I'm just going to get started. We're going to have a combination of uplift and and real talk during this conversation. But I just wanted to start with sort of all of the races that were won last night because there was a lot. So last night was an absolute ass kicking shellacking for a night for by by Democrats of Republicans. So I just want to make sure everybody knows all of the races that were won. So let me just run through a few of them and I wrote this down just so I don't miss anything. Okay, so Democrat Abigail sp won the race for Virginia governor by nearly 15 points. That's a wider margin than When I went to bed last night, which is pretty significant. The biggest margin of victory for a Democrat in 50 years. She's the first female governor of the state. Gazella Hashmi, who was the Democrat running for lieutenant governor, also won. She became the first statewide elected Muslim person in the entire country. Democrat Jay Jones won the race for Attorney general overcoming quite a texting scandal. So there was that. Democrats won a super majority in the Virginia state legislature setting some up for the redistriction restricting fight which we will also talk about. Mikey Sherrill won by 13 points in New Jersey, a much bigger margin than the polls suggested and most people thought was going to happen. Democrats around Mamdani of course beat Trump endorsed Andrew Cuomo by about nine points, which is a pretty significant margin. He got over 50%. Also significant. Also in New York, Democrats held onto a competitive state assembly seat in a district Trump won last year. Prop 50 won by huge margins. In Pennsylvania, voters chose to keep the Democratic app appointed majority on the Supreme Court despite a billionaire in Pennsylvania trying to buy the state supreme court seats. The Elon Musk of Pennsylvania will come back to him as well. In Maine, voter rejected new voter ID restrictions backed by Republicans and voted in favor of a new gun safety measure. In Cincinnati, the incumbent Democratic mayor fended off a challenge from J.D. vance's half brother and absolutely destroyed him. I think his half brother got like 18 points or something.

[Liz Smith]

78 to 21.

[Jen Psaki]

So sorry, 21, not 18. Thank you for the correction, correction there. And in Mississippi, Democrats flipped three legislative seats denying Republicans a super majority. I mean that's just some of the races. And I will start just by saying it felt so much better to see winning as opposed to losing. I mean it was exactly a year ago when I think Democrats across the country felt pretty downtrodden. I, I was had the honor of anchoring from 2am a.m. that night on MSNBC, which is a period of time where we knew where it was headed and we had to wait for the race to be called, which is a very challenging thing to do, I will say. And at 5:30 ish in the morning we called the race. So last night felt much better than that. David Plouff we kind of know where you were, but how did last night feel versus a year ago?

[David Plouffe]

No comparison. We won everything everywhere by a huge margin. And so you kind of have to go back all the way to like 0608 to have that kind of night. So great outcome. I think it shows the depths of people's economic anger and despair, anger at Trump both because he hasn't done anything on prices other than make it worse. And he seems focused on a bunch of stuff that's unpopular. But at the end of the day, I think that winning New Jersey and Virginia by these margins is amazing. And I think some of the county level stuff underneath is even more promising. But ultimately, for the Democratic Party to get to where it needs to go, we have to reliably be able to compete again in Iowa and Ohio, win the presidential race in the Sun Belt in the South. So we have a long way to go. So I think we should all celebrate. And we had great candidates who ran great campaigns across the country. And those margins in Pennsylvania, in the Supreme Court races, I mean, they were landslides. You really don't see landslides in the state of Peninsul, Pennsylvania, but we saw that. So it's amazing. And I think the right reaction is to praise the candidates and the campaign staff who produce these wins, celebrate the voters who are showing they're not scared of Trump and they'll show up, but also understand that we got a long way to go to where we need to get to as a party in a country to put this threat behind us.

[Jen Psaki]

It's a really. And we will, I promise, get to all of that. Because just like any election, it's like the election was won and then you have to move on and look to the next. And Democrats still don't control and anything in terms of the House, the Senate, or the White House. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Okay, Liz, I know you had some winning races a year ago, so maybe you didn't feel as dark as everybody, but, yeah, give us a little comparison.

[Liz Smith]

Last night, 2024 election night was oddly pretty positive for me. I had worked on Tom Suozzi's special election in 2024, Adam Schiff's primary and general election, and I was involved with a group that worked with 12, 13 in some of the toughest races. People like Marie Glusenkamp Perez, Jared Golden, Angie Craig, Pat Ryan, who were all able to eke out wins. And that night we decided we wanted to expand that group and make it a bigger group than that. And we called it Majority Democrats. And two of the members of Majority Democrats are Abigail Spanberger and Mikey Sherrill. And so an early victory for trying to retake a majority. But I agree with David that we have a lot of work ahead of.

[Jen Psaki]

So let's talk about some of the lessons people should take away and the lessons people should not take away. I mean, I, I have just been kind of walking around the building today and people have stopped me and said, so does this mean that Mamdani is the future or that Abigail Spanberger and Mikey Sherrill are the future? And I say to everybody, that is exactly the wrong question. It's. They're both and neither, you know, I mean they're all kind of the future because they were just elected to be the mayor of New York and the governor of Virginia and the governor of New J Jersey by wide margins. And those are big jobs on their own. And also neither in that none of them are going to be running for president. And there are a lot of other people who will be. And you can't take a lesson that it means that party needs to go to one way or the other. It needs to be a bigger tent. But I'm sure there are other questions. People are stopping you and asking you pluff, what. What is kind of the thing, the take or the question that's driving you the craziest since last night?

[David Plouffe]

Well, the thing that drives me the craziest is and again, we give everybody the right to exhale and be thrilled about the outcome. But that sense of, oh, okay, we're back, it's gonna be okay, both the country and the party, that's not where we are. Yeah.

[Liz Smith]

Because everyone is. There's like a little bit of irrational exuberance right now, which is like, we're back, baby. And it's like, no, not really. This is just like one in a lot of embarrassment.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, we're not dead. So that's good.

[David Plouffe]

That's good.

[Liz Smith]

We're not dead.

[Jen Psaki]

No one's. There's some life in the body.

[David Plouffe]

I think your answer is the right answer, which is what unifies Mamdani and Sheryl and Spamberger and some of the other races down ballot that you mentioned, including in some tough plays in Mississippi. These were Democrats who were focused on cost of living, affordability, the economic issues that people are dealing with every day. And they were standing up to Trump and offering to be an alternative to that. And so that's what unifies. And I think as a party we have to welcome all comers, people who are center. We need some right of center Democrats left of center and then, you know, Democratic socialists. That's kind of the unifying thread. I think the one thing to learn and listen, Cheryl and Spanberger I think did a good job of this. Mondami though is at the top of the list of really running a campaign that was like TikTok YouTube reels first. And for those of us, all three of us, we grew up in politics, where you thought about if you have something to say, what speech you're gonna give, what interview are you gonna give? And that's still important, but it's much less important than like, what content am I creating every day across each of these channels, which is to. To drive my message and reach voters who don't ever seek out information about politics. They encounter it. And so I think that is really important. Everybody running for House next year, Senate governor, ultimately our presidential candidates, you gotta be creating content every day. And that's gotta be kind of at the. That's what Sankrosanct on your schedule, right? And so I think that's what we can learn. And also I think Mondami is a good. And Cheryl did this on energy prices. You know, it's okay to like, stick with a message, you know, My hope is it's less about the ideology. I think it's more about studying. Because every candidate should just be authentic to who they are. What do I care about? What am I going to run on? But the way you communicate, the way you organize has changed, you know, fundamentally, and it continues to change. So I think that's something we can learn. And I think it's really hard for people of a certain age or who've been in politics for a long time. You have to rewire your brain. You've got to think very visual. Like what? To me, as I think about our presidential candidates, the ability to give a speech used to be like, at the top of the list of like, athletic talent you'd want. And the ability to give tough interviews. I'm not saying those aren't important. The most important thing is to be great at 10 second videos and be able to go like on some weird podcast and be a normal human being for three hours. Those are very different skills than how we've normally assessed candidates. And I think some of these folks who won last night kind of show us an important way forward.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, go ahead, Liz.

[Liz Smith]

Yeah, my take is similar to David's, right, is that there is no one way to be a Democrat. And look, the reality is Zoran Mamdani, who won and galvanized this massive turnout, biggest turnout since the 1960s in a new York City mayoral, bigger than the election after 9 11. That even though he did so well in New York, the reality is he's probably not gonna win a statewide race in Virginia, just as Abigail Spanberger probably isn't. Getting through a Democratic Party primary in New York. And that is.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, fine.

[Liz Smith]

As David said, we need all comers. We need to drop purity tests, we need to have a big tent. And a big tent goes both ways. Because I see some people in my sort of aisle of the party saying, we don't want Zoran Mamdani here. And it's like, well, a lot of Democrats in New York did and he brought out a lot of new voters and we've got to respect that. But also, I agree with David's point about just having a message discipline and really sticking to issues that voters care about. Right. And for all the talk that Zoran Mamdani really like, led the affordability focus, I would note that Abigail Spanberger announced her governor before the 2024 election. And in her announcement ad, she was focused completely on affordability and costs. And what that signals to me is that we have gotta meet voters on the top issues for them. And right now that is a cost of living.

[Jen Psaki]

I 1000% agree with you. And one of the things I find challenging out there is, and this will not be a popular opinion on Blue sky, which is fine, is that there are a lot of things that are happening out there in the country that I think all of us find immoral and horrible to watch.

[David Plouffe]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

ICE raids what it's doing to communities, obviously, kind of these authoritarian tendencies, and I don't love that word by Trump, but to your point, none of these candidates who ran in very different races ran on. I am going to get rid of ICE and I'm going to fight an authoritarian dictator. Exactly. It wasn't like the core root of their message. So that's kind of an interesting lesson. But I mean, plouff, what do you think?

[David Plouffe]

Well, I think, listen, I think atmospherically, you know, the price that Trump and Republicans are paying is people's economic situation has gotten worse. Even though the only reason Donald Trump won really was because people believed he would be better on the economy and costs than the Democrats. So the truth is the deportations of people who've been here for 30 or 40 years, most voters who are gonna decide elections don't like that. Destroying the White House, basically suggesting that the rules don't apply to me and my party to win back the House, which I think is essential for our party in our country, you've gotta make sure these House Republicans are paying full price. Cuz by the way, by next summer they're all gonna be trying to suggest somehow they stood up to Trump in one way and they didn't agree with everything. We need to make sure they're paying the price now for, like, they've st and went along and enabled all this stuff that has nothing to do with lowering your prices. And in fact, they've supported economic policies that are jacking up your energy prices, your healthcare costs, your food costs, your housing costs. So the best campaigns I've seen are when candidates are running for the office for the right reasons. They're very clear about what they're gonna say. By the way, sometimes that may not be the stuff that polls the best, but voters respect somebody who seems to be authentic and cares. Right? So, you know, I think one of the challenges going back to 24 is the Central question was the economy. And in every state, voters, by a huge margin, were giving Donald Trump positive marks from his first term and Biden by definition, then Harris negative marks. Like, it was just a terrible track. Right. I think what we've seen, this is not just America. All around the world, any party that wins is immediately on probation, and they're almost guaranteed to have a shitty election the next time. Right? So that's gonna be one of these challenges for Democrats who win is you've gotta deliver, you've gotta narrate what you're doing for people. You gotta. When you hit a roadblock, you gotta talk about why and bring up the villains who are trying to prevent progress being made for people. But I think that that's another lesson is at the end of the day, the biggest dynamic was you're not the party in power, and the party in power is unpopular, and the party in power is not delivering on core promises. So it's actually, in a way, fairly easy to take advantage of that. I think the question is, in certain places, we have to take advantage of the Republican weakness and them being in power and not delivering in Virginia and New Jersey, but in House districts in really tough places, we've got to win some Senate races in hostile territory, and that's what we have to do 26 and beyond. But meeting voters where they are, you can never go wrong with that. Right. And so particularly when you have a good critique about the people in charge who aren't doing that, and then you need to not just say, so, I'm gonna focus on it. You have to have some good ideas. So one of, I think Mondami's great strengths was, you know, these were ideas that people both supported, but they were easy to digest on buses, on childcare. You know, Cheryl talking a lot about a state of emergency around energy prices that seems real to people, right? And new in a way. So I think that that's the other lesson here. I think going forward is the stronger we will be as a party is when voters who decide elections say, you know, these Democrats seem a little bit different. You know, they are willing to attack Trump, they're willing to attack the status quo, but they're also willing to say that the Democratic Party hasn't always got it right in terms of their focus on the economy. So I think there's a lot of running room. The way I think about it is think about Michael Jordan, okay? He'd go into halftime, they'd be up six, but he'd be furious they weren't up by 10. They'd win a game and he'd be upset that they made a few mistakes. That has to be our approach, which is we have to win every race that's conceivable to win, including races right now that seem really hard. Senate races in the Texases and governor's races in Iowa and Senate races in Nebraska and Maine. Like, we ultimately, to get to where we need to get to, which I think is basically gaining and maintaining power through the next decade, we're going to have to win in a lot of places. And so that requires fully maximizing the Republican weakness. And this is something we should all be thrilled about as Democrats. Like, they're weak, okay? Like, voters have basically said they're not delivering. And I think when they're not delivering on the economy, all the other stuff, the deportations, the rule of law stuff, hurts them more. You don't even have to really put that front center.

[Liz Smith]

Okay, so can I just jump in quickly on one thing? Cause if you saw my face light up, David took the words out of my mouth. Part of the reason why Abigail and Mikey did so well is that they signaled to people that they were different types of Democrats. Abigail has been doing that through her entire career. She was elected in 2018 and she had that big vote viral debate moment where Dave Brat tried to tie her in the debate 20 times to Nancy Pelosi. And she said, I'm not Nancy Pelosi. I am not Barack Obama. I am not the candidate in the primary who supported single payer healthcare. I'm Abigail Spanberger. She was one of the Democrats who was very vocal against defunding the police in this race. She was endorsed by the Virginia police unions for the first time that they endorsed a Democratic candidate for governor since 2009. Mikey in New Jersey also has a national security background. Law enforcement background that she leaned on. But she was one of the first members of Congress in 2024 to call on Joe Biden to step down.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Liz Smith]

And I think having that track record of independence, of showing that they were willing to take on the Democratic Party when the Democratic Party was doing stuff that was either crazy. Well, all those things are crazy. I think gave them a lot of credit with voters and, and other people would be smart to do that. You can't just fight the Republicans. You need to call out your own party when your own party is falling short.

[Jen Psaki]

Let's take a very quick break here and more from my conversation with David Plouff and Liz Smith when we come back.

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[Jen Psaki]

Okay, so this is very if there's for people listening who are going to work on their first campaign or are going to work on their second or third campaign or maybe they want to run for office. Let's give them like some specifics here because there, there are things in the environment that you can take advantage of, right? In this regard. So there's a government shutdown. Now there is Chuck Schumer, who is an old outdated leader of the party. That's my view. You don't have to share that view. Pluff what would you for candidates running in states that don't have the demographics of New York City or California, what would you advise them? What things would you want them to consider looking at to differentiate themselves? Or do you disagree with what Liz had to say?

[David Plouffe]

No, I think Liz is exactly right. But again, I go back to a good candidate is not going to need an advisor. Yeah. To tell that they're going to have a pretty good sense of like, why am I running particularly what do I.

[Jen Psaki]

Have to Bill rings.

[David Plouffe]

But my sense is there's just. So when you have a deeply unpopular Republican president, Republican congressman, and I think one of our strengths in 26 and 28 should be that none of these Republican candidates, certainly none of the incumbents, but I think even challengers, because they have no independence from Donald Trump, no independent thought, they are just soldiers for Donald Trump and they are going along while deeply unpopular. Things are happening and our economy's getting worse and worse. So we need Democratic candidates, I think, who can properly indict their opponents and the Republicans and the status quo generally that institutions aren't working for people. Our economy's not working for enough people. But then say, listen, and one of the reasons I'm running is I think the Democratic Party has not done a good enough job, whether that's on cost of living, whether it was not being honest about Biden. Some Democrats actually care about deficit reduction. They should talk about it. By the way, Mom Dhame is one of the best Democrats about talking about, hey, government sometimes is inefficient. Like, I think we as a party became afraid to say anything negative about government because we thought it was playing the Republican game. I think Democrats, by the way, Obama was great about this. Clinton about this. Like, listen, when government's not working or not delivering or being inefficient, we should blow the whistle because we actually believe in government. And voters will give us more credit if we're willing to say, yeah, like, it was a good idea, but it's not working. Right. Or stuff's taking too long. Bernie Sanders, in a recent interview, I think this week was talking about his frustration with the bureaucracy about getting health centers built in Vermont. Like, we need more of that, so just let it rip. By the way, I think most candidates, they should do what they feel. But if I'm running for the Senate or the House, I'd certainly be comfortable saying, if I win, I'm not going to support any member of the current Democratic leadership. Like, there's like so much room here.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. That's going to be. There's, you know, tons of space.

[David Plouffe]

So take it.

[Jen Psaki]

You know, take it. You have no obligation to defend institutions or defend institutional figures if you're running for office, which I think is an important thing for people to remember. Liz, let me ask you about the kind of. And you and I have talked about this or texted about it because there's sort of this obsess. The Republicans are obsessed with trying to tie Mom. Donnie. Right. To be the face of the Democratic Party. Now I he there's lot. They've tried this a lot before, right. With Pelosi, with aoc. I mean, I think they tried actually Governor Bashir told me they tried to superimpose his face with Obama. Right. This is, this is kind of an old tactic. You're still advising candidates running. What do you tell them to say if that's not going to work in their district, which for a lot of people in the middle of the country would certainly want?

[Liz Smith]

Well, as you mentioned, this is a well worn playbook. Right. And 20 years ago is Nancy Pelosi. They've done it with AOC, Ilan Omar, all the members of the squad, Bernie Sanders. So great. They've got one more boogeyman. And I just don't get all of the agita from some centrist Democrats about it because if you are an effective politician and you are able to win in a tough district, you should have no problem saying I disagree with Zoran Mamdani. And look, there are two races that I think could potentially maybe be affected by that. I would say Laura Gillen on Long island and Tom Suozzi on Long Island. Tom has a little bit of Queens in his district. And New York City politics definitely spills over there a little bit. But you know what they did, they spoke out pretty fricking forcefully against Zoran Mamdani. The second. Second he won the primary. And it's not hard to do. You just need to be able to say that is one type of Democrat. I am a different type of Democrat. And signal to voters that you're focused on regional issues, your community, the issues they care about. You're not trying to adopt the DSA platform. And so I know we will see a lot of Zoran Mamdani, probably from Republicans in the coming weeks and months.

[Jen Psaki]

But.

[Liz Smith]

But Democrats just need to have a backbone and be willing to distance themselves and state who they aren't and who they are.

[Jen Psaki]

What do you think? I mean, because there's this tricky line here. I agree that like Democrats should be able to stand up and Say what they disagree with. He also tapped into, yes in New York City, but an enormous amount of energy among young people among a huge diverse coalition, which is, I mean, the Democratic Party and Democratic brand is not popular. Maybe if you're a candidate, you care less about that. But what do you think Pluff. They should, should be embraced. Like, are there things because you. I hate to be. I'm picking on Chuck Schumer again and I'm sorry, but like, he's kind of like run away from the cameras when people have asked him about him and that can't kind of be the answer. But is there anything they should be embracing?

[David Plouffe]

Well, I think his focus on affordability and you know, to Liz's point, I think candidates can say, I may have different, you know, kind of remedies, but, you know, focusing on affordability is the right thing to do.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, right.

[David Plouffe]

I think now New York is more than any place in the country, a city of renters. But I think the Democratic Party writ large because there's people who rent in Cincinnati, there's people who rent, you know, in the Central Valley, in California. I think our rhetoric on housing is always about home ownership, and that's critical. But let's talk as much about we are renters. Like, we need a lot of people. That's what they want to do. It's what they have to do while they save up. So I think that, you know, was really. It's not just the free rent. It's that he kind of got how people lived and obviously the way he communicated, which is he was everywhere all at once. You just have to be. By the way, I don't really love that. Like, that's not healthy necessarily, but that's just the reality.

[Jen Psaki]

It's kind of a Pete Buttigiegy strategy.

[David Plouffe]

Well, but even more so, yes, Pete's everywhere, which is great and he's a great communicator. But if you look at the Mondami campaign, I mean, they clearly knew their audience. They had really smart both strategies and tactics for each of the platforms. I think too many of our candidates more are starting to think that way. But they have to. You just have to say, what is my campaign? My campaign, first and foremost is making sure I, I am reaching people on YouTube, on TikTok, on Instagram, on Reddit. The other thing I think to learn from Andami is there was a joy to that, which we always credit, but that matters. Happy warriors. By the way, Trump, in his weird way, he was often angry, but clearly voters, he loved Being out there, there's no place he'd rather be. And I think that's important too, which is when people get a sense that, well, this person seems like they're enduring the campaign so they can govern. That doesn't work so well. So I think we can learn from that. But at the end of the day, the most important thing, I think both for Mondoff and the city of New York, and I would even say Democrats, which is just do as great a job as you can at governing because this is the second hardest job in America as a president. But listen, let's be an optimist. You mentioned Republicans like to have their boogeyman in cities. So San Francisco, New York, Daniel Lurie I think is doing a very good job if he keeps that up. If Mondami actually overperforms, by the way, there's two parts of being an executive. There's your agenda, what you're trying to get done. And he'll work hard on that. He'll be successful on some of it, unsuccessful in others. And if he's unsuccessful, I think he's got to report back to his supporters in the city and say why he was. But then you just gotta handle shit, you know, the snowstorms and the municipal strikes. And in New York, lots of stuff happens. So if we're at a point where like this time next year or deep into 27, we're like actually like the mayors of New York and San Francisco are judged to have just really done a kick ass job. That is super important, I think.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[David Plouffe]

And so I think we should all be rooting for that. But there's a lot to learn. But I think Liz is right. I think sometimes Democrats, we can just fear that like, oh, they're gonna say, I'm like this person, that person, just slough it off and say, here's who I am. And the truth is the other thing I'd say about this, which is the Spamberger and Sheryl's having success and then the Mondami's having success. What do we most. We need great candidates to emerge to run for office. And I think if Democrats have a sense that potential Democratic candidates, like, there's room for me, I'll give it a shot. Like, that's super exciting. Right. And we don't have to over contort ourselves to, well, how's Dami the same or different than this person who's running in Ohio? I think what unifies us is a fight and belief in working people, an economy that works for everybody, that if you work hard and play by the rules, we're gonna do everything we can to allow you to succeed. A belief in the rule of law, a belief in the right kind of approach to immigration and criminal justice. I think we know we have advantages on a lot of these issues, even during the Trump years. But that's the key thing, is for voters to get a sense that all comers are welcome. But the most important thing is for candidates not to say, well, I'd run, but I don't think there's room for me in the Democratic, like, jump in.

[Jen Psaki]

And jump in, the umbrella expands.

[Liz Smith]

And I would just say that quickly. Having that different type of background is really helpful. You remember in 2018, when Abigail and Mikey first ran, there was a year where you had all these national security women. And right now we are seeing these really fascinating candidates pop up, like Bob Brooks in Pennsylvania, firefighter Jamie, North Carolina farmer Bobby Polito, who is literally a Tejano music star. He's like the George Strait of Tejano music. And so we need those different types of candidates. But one other thing I want to point to on Zoran Mamdani that I thought was interesting is Searchlight Institute put out this poll before we started taping here, and it said that New York City voters said that Mamdani prioritized affordable housing and prices more than the national Democratic Party, and that he prioritized the issues of climate change, lgbtq, LGBTQ plus issues, immigration and abortion less. So that also matters your focus. How much are you spending time talking about one issue versus a different one? Because I think a lot of people outside New York who didn't follow the race as closely as, like, someone like me did might have thought that he was out there with all these lefty positions on all these other things, taking positions on those things. He wasn't. He was laser focused on affordability.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. Which like, he's what's relentless. I mean, it's like in such like a fascinating. We've all communicated for a living and it's like, wow. But it's feel inauthentic. We're going to take another break, but when we come back, we're going to talk more about 2025's big night for Democrats with David Plouff and Liz Smith.

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[Jen Psaki]

I I want to talk just for a moment about redistricting because I I think the Prop 50 win kind of was good. Good for Gavin Newsome, it's good for the country, it's good for California, it's good for everybody. What do you think it means from here? Because one of the pieces this is like we got to have good candidates. They have to speak honestly, they have to be on the platforms. Meanwhile the other side is playing by like a very different set of rules. Right. So in terms of Wes Moore is said he wants to do this although the Democratic Senate president in Maryland is against it. That feels challenging. There are other states but there's not a million states where can happen. How does this play out and does this kind of matter as a factor in terms of who Democrats get excited about leading up to 2028, which really is a long time from now, but sort of off to the races bluff. What do you think?

[David Plouffe]

Well, none of us wish we were here but the fact of the matter is in every state that can produce an additional potential Democratic district, we have to seize that opportunity because that's what the other side's doing. So listen, I'm not sure in our our next generation that will change but if at some point the Republican party says we'll put our weapons down and we'll do redistricting once a decade like we used to and won't fiddle around with it. We can too. But until that point, we have to do that because listen, maybe next year will be such a strong election, we end up with 225, 230 Democrats. But the truth is there's not that many competitive House districts. So this could come down to 1, 2, 3 house seats. So it's a math exercise, guys. Like where can we make changes? Illinois is a state. Virginia obviously more likely now after last night, which is great news. Maryland I saw there, maybe it was the Maryland Senate president, but some Maryland senator said, well, after last night we don't need to do redistricting. Yeah, like that is the wrong, wrong answer. Okay. I mean, I just think our view has to be right now and for some foreseeable future, the operating principle has to be how do we, we most advantage ourselves to acquire power and to maintain it. Like redistricting should be non partial, humans shouldn't be a part of it. Computers should do it all. That's not where we are. I mean, they're doing mid decade redistricting everywhere they can. So we have to respond in kind. And California's not a swing state, but still, to win something like that, 2/3, 1/3, I think that shows both kind of the anti Trump energy out there. But there is a sense that it's not like we're the only one changing the rules. In fact, we're just responding to this. So for me it's pretty simple. It's math everywhere. We can change districts to gain seats, we have to do it.

[Jen Psaki]

And there's gotta be pressure on people to do it.

[David Plouffe]

Yes, right. Because of what's at stake here.

[Jen Psaki]

What do you think, Liz?

[Liz Smith]

I agree. Like, look, gerrymandering's gross. Politicians shouldn't be picking their voters. We would all be better off. As if, as David said, computers were drawing the lines. And maybe in a perfect world, if we ever get a Democratic trifecta back, the first thing we do or one of the first things we do, I don't think it would be like the super popular thing to campaign on as the first thing to do, but should be like a national ban on gerrymandering and just making sure that all districts everywhere are independently drawn because gerrymandering is so bad for American politics. That would take an hour for me to go to. But until then we gotta use all the tools at our disposal and also make sure that we are recruiting Good candidates who can win even in the slight reach districts. We need to shoot a little bit more for the moon and maybe pick up a couple stars on the way.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, that would be good. I love your examples. It reminds me of 2005 and 2006 and Pluff. When did you run the D trip?

[David Plouffe]

2000. Yeah. But I was deeply involved in 06 when Rahm was chaired.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes.

[David Plouffe]

There's people who won who, like the dccc, hadn't even returned their calls. Oh, no.

[Jen Psaki]

I just.

[David Plouffe]

So, right. We were there. I mean, it was crazy, Bill.

[Jen Psaki]

This is like in somebody's book. And on the night of election night, Bill Burton was like, who's Carol fucking Shea Porter? She was like, I don't even know who that person is. Now she's a member of Congress. And she was for a couple cycles.

[David Plouffe]

Those are good nights.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, but it's also some of these people who were picked were like people who just were different and they were. They were out of the box and they were. You didn't know where they stood on a lot of stuff. Let me ask you, because we've all worked on a collection of, I don't know, a hundred presidential campaigns. So for all these people who are to be out there, there are a couple things that feel to me like, I would say, do they have to ever fill out a questionnaire again? I would say no. I know there's a lot of pressure to do that, but that's one of my things. The other thing, and I think about our collective former boss, Barack Obama, who had some positions at times that were not politically popular, but they were what he believed. Right. And that is authentic. It's like, decide what you believe on the range of issues out there that are controversial and start there and then figure out how to talk about it. But what advice? Because there's going to be, what, approximately five to 55 people running for president. Definitely not five. More like 55. What advice would you guys be giving? It's so early. There's lots of time. What should they be doing now to set themselves up to be in the pool?

[David Plouffe]

For me, it always starts with right now. Spend a lot of time with yourself. Like, do you really want to do this?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[David Plouffe]

You know, do you want to go through the campaign? Do you want to be president? Would you be a good president? Like, these questions should still matter.

[Jen Psaki]

Why do you want to be president? Yeah.

[David Plouffe]

Right. And then if you answer yes to all those questions, then it's like, what is my offering to the American people? And how is that unique and distinctive for me, there are other Democrats or kind of the status quo. And so, you know, I think there's a lot of tactical things, obviously, how you communicate. Right. And the Democratic nominee, we know as this is the one mathematical certainty will be the person who wins the plurality of the black vote.

[Liz Smith]

So.

[David Plouffe]

So, like, that's super important, right? To think if you have a pathway to that. But I believe that, listen, this may seem naive, but there's big stuff happening in the country that will, you know, AI, aging, population, climate change, deficit out of control. Like, I think there's a hunger out there for people who, you know, have some big thoughts about these things. Now, that doesn't mean you're so up in the cloud you can't connect with people. You gotta connect with people with, like, a core, imminent, urgent economic message. But that's my hope, is some people emerge who can do that. But my guess is the strongest Democratic nominee will be somebody who has the sharpest and most effective critique on the Republicans on the status quo writ large, but also seems like they're gonna move the Democratic Party in a different direction. That will be a dangerously strong candidate and someone who can win everywhere. Because at the end of the day, we need to win not just the blue wall, but we've gotta be able to. Nevada, Georgia, Arizona, these are places where we have had success in races, but presidentially, not as reliably. And as you know, what's looming out there is in 2032, a Democratic nominee could win all the blue wall states and they won't win the presidency. We're gonna lose six or seven seats cause of the census. To me, it's just a lot of time with yourself and your family. These are important questions. Right. Because the presidential race is a crapshoot. What we've learned is there's all these people in both parties. They look on paper like they are going to be the strongest candidate. They've succeeded. Like, DeSantis is a good example of it.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, Paper tiger.

[David Plouffe]

You succeed off Broadway, and then you go on Broadway. And as you two know, this is an unrelenting obstacle course. It is like a 247 practical, logical exam that most people don't survive, Right?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[David Plouffe]

So it's. Who can survive that? But at the end of the day, I think the person who has the best diagnosis of some of the country's challenges and opportunities and gives people hope that they've got the best answers for that. The other thing is to inspire people. Like, I think generally, the most exciting candidate wins. You Know, we live in an attention economy, so even more so today. But that's not something you can manufacture. You either have that or you don't. Right. But I think at the end of the day, I think both the Democratic Party voters and general election voters, voters are gonna be looking for someone who excites them, who gets them to believe in them, who gets them to get involved in politics. And again, I think we saw in New York the power of that. Trump had it, Obama's had it, there's been candidates through the years have had it, and they tend to succeed and overperform electorally.

[Jen Psaki]

Shouldn't be drudgery.

[Liz Smith]

And David said in a lot of words what I was just gonna say, which is I think that we are ripe for another Barack Obama type figure. You know, someone who runs against the status quo, inspires people, has big ideas. We haven't put out, put forth big ideas in so long. So I agree with everything David said.

[Jen Psaki]

But much more succinctly, I, I also would just echo the point about it's really hard to win the presidency, as we all know. And you know, you look at all of the kind of backward looking analysis which we're not going to do now of like, oh, if only this person had been the nominee. It's like, you know how hard it is to actually win. It's extremely hard. And the whole process kind of reveals things about, which is what's interesting and exciting. Before I let you go, talk to me about, give our, give our listeners some kind of like, hopeful. Where do you think Democrats could win that people doubt we could win? You mentioned Iowa Pluff, which kind of stuck out to me. I mean, Iowa, Kim Reynolds is very unpopular at the governor's race. So there's that. Where else do you think we could, Democrats could win that, that people are skeptical of and how.

[David Plouffe]

Well, it's all going to be about candidate quality and unique circumstances. So in Iowa, you have a popular Democratic state statewide elected official in sand.

[Jen Psaki]

Who looks exactly like Tommy Vitor. They're related.

[Liz Smith]

Oh my God, it's so creepy.

[David Plouffe]

Yes, it's very eerie. It's kind of disturbing. But I think that, so there, I mean, Sherrod's running again. He's shown popularity in the past. Ohio's changed. But if it's a bad Republican year, tough economy, maybe can someone like Graham Platner, if he wins the primary, be enough of a difference with Collins to win? So, and there's any number of House races. So I think, I think first of all, the principle has to be. We're gonna try and win everywhere. We're gonna embrace a lot of different types of candidates from background to ideology to approach. But that's what's required. Because again, I think that to get to the point where we reliably think every cycle we can hold the White House and the Senate and of course the House as well. But I'm thinking a lot about the Supreme Court. You've gotta have a wider playing field than we have today. And so what that requires is in Iowa, of course you're gonna wanna do. Just to use that as a example, we can talk about your. Both of you guys know Ohio. There's plenty of great examples there. Of course we have to maximize and do better than we have in recent election cycles in some of the suburban areas, do better in some of the urban counties, kind of going back to how we were 10 or 15 years ago. But like in Iowa and Ohio, some of these counties that we're losing 90, 10, 80, 20, we have to lose 65, 35.

[Liz Smith]

Exactly.

[David Plouffe]

And so when we candidates who in those mostly rural and exurban areas can get a bunch of people back, that's super hard. That's why even in a good year in a lot of places, those places will remain rich red. Unless think about that. That's big change. But it's possible to have people say, I'm so frustrated and this Democratic candidate seems different than the rest and somebody I could support. And so some of those rural counties become places we lose by 30 as opposed to 60. And they all add up basically into a big city. And that I think is the most important. That's how I think about those places. Are we going to have candidates who can vastly improve what's happened the last three election cycles in some of those rural counties?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, it's like the Warnock strategy. And there are many others who have.

[Liz Smith]

Run a to win by losing less. And that's how we used to win Ohio. You know, you can't just run up the margins in the three Cs. You gotta do well in Appalachia and all across the state in terms of positivity. I agree. Iowa sort of is really fascinating this year because the tariffs have absolutely decimated the agricultural industry there, the soybean industry there. And so Rob sand is a fantastic candidate for governor. He's been willing to break with Democrats on things like trans girls playing in girls sports. We've got great House candidates there like Sarah Trone Garriott. I know. I saw a poll recently showing her up against the Republican. She's in Iowa's third District, a minister who then became a state legislator. Josh Turek is running for a U.S. senate there. But then some of the names I mentioned before, Bobby Polito down in South Texas, Jamie Ager in Farmer in North Carolina, also someone who can speak to the impact of the tariffs. And then, you know, anti establishment candidates in places like Pennsylvania, Paige Cognetti, the mayor of Scranton, whose campaign slogan is Paige against the Machine because the Democratic machine has tried so many times to bring her down and she beats them every time. So candidates with those different types of backgrounds and the right sort of issue stew in their states that I think could really rise to the top.

[David Plouffe]

And I would just add that I, I think, yeah, Liz, those are the examples of the types of candidates that can win in tough train. But we have an opportunity to take advantage of this. Jen, back to some optimistic thought. It's not like Trump in the next year is gonna get, I think, a lot more popular. If anything could get more unpopular. Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Easier to understand.

[David Plouffe]

Right. You've got a bad atmosphere because of that. And they're in power. So when a party's in power and they control everything and things aren't going well and people don't think things are going well, they pay a price. But all these Republican elected officials who are incumbents and even the candidates, you can paint them as being so weak because they won't stand up to Trump at all. They are just basically letting all this terrible stuff happen to people and you can never have any faith that they'll change anything. So to me, they're like a pinata. And so what you want is the strongest piece of weaponry to knock the pinata in one shot. Right. But I think the elements of the are there in terms of their side. I think the question is, on our side, can we take full advantage of what should be a really, really good.

[Jen Psaki]

Political environment and a long way to go. It's a perfect place to end some real talk, some uplift, a little bit of something for everybody. David Plouffe, Liz Smith, thank you both so much. I feel like I could listen to you talk for another hour, but we all have to go do more things for our day. So thank you again.

[Liz Smith]

Thanks, Jen.

[David Plouffe]

Bye, guys. Guys.

[Jen Psaki]

Thanks so much for listening to the Blueprint. You can subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad free as a subscriber. You'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. You can also subscribe to my newsletter the Blueprint with Jen Psaki, where every week I look at the debate within the Democratic Party over how to win back voters. Sign up for [e-mail] blueprintnewsletter. All episodes of the Blueprint are also available on YouTube. Visit msnbc.com theblueprint to watch. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki is produced by Franny Kelly alongside Leah Collins, Michelle Hoffner, Andrew Joyce, Tricia McKinney and Eggy Monda. Additional production support from McKenna Roberts. Our audio engineer is Bob Mallory, Katie Lau is the senior manager of audio production, our senior producer is Miguel Suzana and Alex Lubica is the executive producer of the Briefing, Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio and Madeleine Herringer is senior vice president in charge of audio, digital and long form.

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