AMY: Criticism (Part 1 of How Relationships Begin to End: The Four Horseman)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bobby Bones Show — "AMY: Criticism (Part 1 of How Relationships Begin to End: The Four Horsemen)"

Date: September 21, 2025
Hosts: Amy & Kat

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Episode Overview

This episode marks the beginning of a four-part series on the Four Horsemen of relationship breakdown, based on Dr. John Gottman’s extensive research. The focus in Part 1 is on “Criticism,” one of the central communication patterns that can predict the downfall of relationships. Amy and Kat aim to explore what criticism looks like, how it negatively impacts relationships, and crucially, how to swap it out for healthier communication habits.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction to the Four Horsemen (02:23, 26:10)

• Dr. John Gottman identified four communication styles—Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt, and Stonewalling—that can predict the demise of a relationship with up to 90% accuracy.
• This episode kicks off with Criticism, acknowledging the universality of falling into critical patterns in relationships.

Notable Quote:
“He could tell with 90% accuracy if a couple was going to succeed or fail based on their communication styles.”
— Kat (02:25)

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Personal Reflection & Storytelling: Amy’s Dentist Debacle (04:13–26:07)

• Amy shares an extended personal story about being overtreated for cavities, feeling taken advantage of by a “bougie” dentist, and her subsequent resentment and shame.
• The story is used to exemplify feelings of anger, resentment, and how unaddressed complaints can fester into criticism or passive aggression.
• They highlight the importance of voicing feelings rather than letting anger become resentment, and the value of seeking second opinions.

Notable Quotes:
“I keep picturing like a critical person riding a horse… I’ve dabbled on that horse before.”
— Kat (03:20)

“I’m angry and resentful because I’m like, you guys took advantage of a young girl...”
— Amy (16:05)

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Defining Criticism (30:07–32:53)

• Criticism is distinguished from complaints:
  • Complaints address a specific behavior.
  • Criticism attacks character or personality.
• Criticism is often expressed with all-or-nothing statements ("You never...", "You always...") and can lead quickly to defensiveness.

Notable Quote:
“Criticism is really about somebody's character. When you criticize somebody, you're not talking about a thing that they did once or a specific behavior. It turns into like who they are.”
— Amy (30:07)

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Common Ways Criticism Shows Up (40:33–53:53)

• Exaggeration/Overgeneralizing:
  ("You never do X," "You always...")
• "Why" Questions:
  Asking “Why do you always…” puts the other on the defensive.
• Sarcasm & Humor as Passive Aggression:
  Making a joke to avoid directly expressing anger or needs.
• "Should" Statements:
  Implies a right and wrong, often causing shame.
• Stockpiling Complaints:
  Storing up small annoyances until they burst out all at once.

Notable Quotes:
"Using humor that's passive aggressive, we've all said things we're like 'haha,' but really we're seething underneath."
— Amy (50:50)

"Should involves shame... it sends the message of 'oh, I'm an idiot.'"
— Amy (53:30)

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The Antidote: Gentle/Soft Startup (57:01–71:07)

• Gentle Startup Technique:
  • Express how you feel, state the facts, and communicate what you need.
  • Use “I” statements instead of “you” statements to avoid assigning blame.
  • Begin with gratitude or appreciation before bringing up a need or complaint.
  • Be assertive but not aggressive; don’t stockpile grievances.
• Example Script:
  • “I feel [emotion] when [event/situation]. I need [specific request or support].”

Notable Quotes:
“I feel blank when blank happens. I need blank. So it’s your feeling, what the facts were, and then what you need.”
— Amy (59:19)

"We have to retrain how we communicate with each other."
— Amy (45:57)

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Playfulness and Whimsy as Coping Tools (66:41–69:41)

• The hosts encourage the use of playfulness and light humor (without sarcasm or passive aggression) to bring levity and connection:
  • Using whimsical language or role-play (e.g., talking to the vacuum or dishes) can diffuse tension without invalidating feelings.
  • However, they caution that true needs must eventually be plainly stated for healthy communication.

Notable Quotes:
"There's a difference in using humor that's passive aggressive and using humor that's playful."
— Amy (69:56)

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Practical Tips and “Stockpiling” Discussion (71:07–75:14)

• Don't pile on a list of complaints—focus on one theme or issue at a time.
• Keeping a running list for yourself may help distinguish which issues are core needs and which are passing annoyances.
• Be specific when making requests, both in partnerships and with children.

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Important Timestamps

• [02:23] — Introduction to the Four Horsemen & Gottman’s research
• [04:13] — Amy’s personal anecdote on criticism and anger
• [16:05] — Feeling taken advantage of/resentment
• [26:10] — Transition to explaining the Four Horsemen in detail
• [30:07] — What constitutes criticism vs. complaint
• [40:33] — Specific examples of how criticism is expressed (exaggeration, sarcasm, shoulds)
• [57:01] — Gentle/soft startup: the antidote to criticism
• [66:41] — Playfulness and levity in relationships
• [71:07] — Tips for avoiding stockpiling and handling requests

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Lighthearted, honest, and educational with openness about personal struggles and vulnerabilities.
• Both hosts frequently use humor, playful banter, and relatable stories.
• The language is conversational but informative, with clear references to real-life examples and therapeutic principles.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Kat: “I keep picturing like a critical person riding a horse... I’ve dabbled on that horse before.” (03:20)
• Amy: “Criticism is really about somebody's character... It turns into like who they are.” (30:07)
• Amy: “Should involves shame... stop should-ing on yourself and your partner.” (53:13)
• Kat: “We don’t want to be the Kool-Aid man—you always know when he arrives!” (62:24)
• Amy: "There's a difference in using humor that's passive aggressive and using humor that's playful." (69:56)
• Amy: “It’s not about getting rid of conflict, it’s how do we manage our conflict well.” (31:58)

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What’s Next in the Series

• Part 2: Defensiveness
• Part 3: Contempt (“the most evil”)
• Part 4: Stonewalling

Quote:
“Next week we’ll do defensiveness, and then my personal least favorite is contempt… Stonewalling is interesting to me.”
— Amy (75:27)

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Criticism is a pervasive and damaging communication style, but with awareness and small changes—especially the gentle startup—it’s possible to shift relationship dynamics.
• Sharing complaints is healthy when done thoughtfully and with vulnerability, not attack.
• Playfulness, gratitude, and specificity are practical tools for fostering connection, not conflict.
• Conflict is a normal, even necessary, part of healthy relationships—what matters is how you handle it.

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End on a hopeful note:
Amy & Kat encourage reflection, self-compassion, and the ongoing effort to swap criticism for more caring and effective communication in all relationships.

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Transcript

[A]

This is an I Heart podcast.

[B]

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[A]

Just want some, maybe a cat got you covered like a num brother. Ladies and fellas, we just follow in the spirit where it tell us from the real stuff to the chill stuff.

[B]

And the in between.

[A]

Sometimes the best thing you can do is just stop and feel things. This is Feeling Things with Amy and Kat.

[B]

Happy Thursday. Feeling Things. I'm Amy.

[A]

And I'm Kat.

[B]

And today's the day. We're finally here. We're starting our four part series on the four Horsemen from John Gotman. And what's crazy to me is when he was doing this research, you were telling me he could tell with 90% accuracy if a couple was going to succeed or fail based on their communication styles. And we're going to dive into the first Horsemen, which is criticism, which is a communication style. And we'll. It's like, we'll call it a little deep dive into. This is a four part series. Our first deep dive was dedicated to Mel Robbins. Let them. So this is not so much a person, it's a thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So this is. Our deep dives are not always going to be people.

[A]

Yeah. And this is hopefully helpful to people that they can either recognize this in somebody else and say, like, oh, I don't like that. Or they can recognize this in themselves and say, oh, I don't like that about me. I want to work to change that.

[B]

When I was reading over some of the. I keep picturing like a critical person riding a horse, maybe because it's horsemen, but I was like, oh, I've dabbled on that horse before. I know for sure. I have behaved this way in my 17 year marriage. I think as a parent, I've even used the word, you always do this. Which I know that my child isn't always doing that. And so I recognize myself in this. But thankfully it's not like my entire personality. I'm not like riding that horse every day.

[A]

Just sometimes you accidentally get on it and then you're like, oh, yeah. I'm like, I don't want to be on this horse.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But before we get into criticism, let's do our feeling of the day, which is from Kat. And I'm eager to know what's going on because all you told me was that you had a story and I know that you're feeling a particular way, but I have no idea why.

[A]

Yeah, I'm like chomping at the bit to talk about this. This happened a couple days ago. This is a follow up to something that I talked about on the fifth thing years ago.

[B]

Yeah. I think I also knew it was a follow up, but I was thinking like a follow up from a couple of months ago.

[A]

No, so you're talking like way back 20, 23 probably.

[B]

Okay, so shout out to loyal listeners.

[A]

Because they probably some of them are going to remember, like I remember when she said that. And they probably were shocked I'm feeling, let's start with my feelings. I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling resentful. I'm feeling a little bit of. I keep wanting to call it shame, but I think it's more like I have anger towards something else and I also have a little bit of anger and disappointment towards myself. I haven't figured out what I need yet, but right now what I want is revenge. And I know that's probably not one, I don't know how I would get revenge. And two, like once I process this, it's probably not going to be what I actually need, so.

[B]

Which is so mature of you because sometimes we can be so reactionary and you may go for that revenge right away without processing and thinking it through. And so.

[A]

Oh, I told my husband.

[B]

Good job.

[A]

Thank you. I told my husband I'm going to find a way to write an anonymous Google review because there's nothing I want more than to like take this person's rating down. And then I thought about it and I said that's not who I want to be. So I didn't do it. But it's okay that I had that urge. I just didn't act on it for anybody that has had like an urge that doesn't align with who they actually are. Also interesting, I'm not going to name names here, but this person, I did look at their Google reviews and they have only five star reviews and I think that that's a hoax. Like there has to be something they're.

[B]

Doing to delete like they did anonymous emails to write good positive Google reviews.

[A]

Found a way to delete. There's no way that nobody has given them anything other than a five star review. Even the best of places have somebody that gave them a four. Anyway, I would give them zero because, well, no, I. There were good things about them. Anyway, years ago, do you remember me telling you about me going to the dentist? Yes. I did not go to the dentist for a couple years because, well, okay.

[B]

I can say what I remember about it and it's that he told you you had 11 cavities.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

@ one time.

[A]

And I'd never had a cavity before.

[B]

In your life?

[A]

In my life. And I was 33 at the time maybe so now I hadn't been to the dentist in like three or four years. So I went in there being like one. One of the reasons it took me so long to go is because after I missed one appointment, I now kept feeling more and more shame about like I haven't been to the dentist in so long. And, you know, the thing that we want to do when we have anxiety is avoid. And the thing that makes anxiety worse is avoiding. So I was in that paradox.

[B]

Do you floss every day?

[A]

We'll get to it.

[B]

Well, I. I. I guess I'm just curious because that's when I get. I guess I feel shame about going, or I feel like I'm gonna get called out because I try to floss a lot. But I know that with a deep cleaning at the dentist, it just gets plaque in certain areas that I can't get. And I know they're gonna have to clean in a certain way. My gums are gonna bleed, and then they're gonna think I don't take care of myself. And I. Cause I haven't been in a little bit, and I know I need to go. And also, I haven't been flossing as regularly as I like. So I know in order to prep for my appointment, I need to start flossing so that I can go and not feel embarrassed and feel shame. Like, oh. Cause you know, they know right away, and they're like, have you flossing? You've been flossing a lot? And I'm like, oh, yeah. And, you know, the minute they take that first little piece of. In there, they can see how your gums are reacting, and they're like, liar.

[A]

Well, I definitely flossed more leading up to my most recent appointment than I usually do. But I floss at least once a week, which is like, I think you're supposed to do it every day. Every day.

[B]

Okay. But once a week. No judgment.

[A]

There's.

[B]

Yeah, sorry. Sorry. I was shocked by that, though.

[A]

Well, because after this experience, you would think that I would be flossing every day.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I also. Okay, so I went to the dentist to this person I hadn't been in a while. I knew that I probably would have something because I hadn't been in a while. But I was not expecting them to tell me I had 11 cavities after never having a cavity. And every time I went to the dentist before that, they'd be like, you have the best home care. Your teeth are beautiful. So I'm like, wow, I thought I had good home care. So why. And I never had any pain in my teeth. Nothing. So they say, I have 11 cavities. I'm like, okay, well, I guess I'll get them filled. And they had to do it in three different appointments. I went to the first two. Whatever. Went to the third one, and they were like, ma', am, your insurance isn't paying for these fillings, so we can't do the last three. But no big deal. Just call your insurance, see what the problem is, and then we'll schedule again. Schedule you again. And I said, okay. Honestly, thank God, I didn't want to get three more fillings. Today I call my insurance. I had signed up for pediatric dental insurance, meaning for children.

[B]

Right. Whoopsie.

[A]

Yeah. So my bad. Also, they shouldn't have let me do that. Yeah, no.

[B]

I'm, like, shocked that they're like, they know your age. Like, you have to give your birthday.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they're like, okay. They're probably like, this is above my pay grade. I don't get paid enough to deal with this person's stupidity.

[A]

My money. Yeah, that just was wild. And also added to the, like, I don't understand how insurance works. And I'm confused. So it just, like, made it, and you can't. I'm like, I can't trust the people to say, this is not the plan for you. Anyway. So they were like, we didn't pay for your fillings because we only cover fillings for people under 18. I was like, 33. So I didn't go back because I didn't have insurance at that time. So I was going to wait till I got married and then got Patrick's insurance. Whatever. Well, then I started. I think as more time went by, I started being like, I don't think I had 11 cavities. One of my best friend's dad is a dentist, and she was like, I bet they weren't like. She said, I should have gotten a second opinion, but that felt like a lot. Because the last thing you want to do is you go to get a second opinion, and they're like, oh, no, you don't have 11 cavities. You have 12.

[B]

Oh, but. Okay, so. But did the. The friend's dad that's a dentist, was he saying that? Because, like, is this a thing that some dentists do? It's a scam.

[A]

Yes. And my mom said she was. Well, that's why we went to the dentist that we went to growing up, because it was, like, growing up. The dentist we went to was, like, kind of in, like, a double wide. It wasn't, like, the nicest voice.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It was in Franklin.

[B]

But it was like, they didn't have any certificates or anything. No degrees.

[A]

They were very nice. They were very nice.

[B]

Very nice.

[A]

But she was like, the reason we went there is we went to a different Dentist. And they said that you guys had all of these issues. So I went and got a second opinion at this. More like down to earth, I would call them place. And she was like. And they said you guys didn't need any of that stuff. And so my. The dentist that I said that said I had 11 cavities is probably the bougiest dentist I'd ever been to. It was very fancy.

[B]

So they have bills to pay.

[A]

They had bills to pay.

[B]

So racket.

[A]

Yes. So then my friend's dad, she. She said, if you get your X rays, I'll show them to my dad and he can let you know. But like, again, it felt like a lot. I just was avoiding it. And then Patrick has never had a cavity. And so I was like, well, I'm gonna go to your dentist and see what they say. So I had to wait till I get on this insurance. And then it took almost a year to get a new patient appointment with them. So I've been waiting to get to that. I think I made that appointment last November, and it was in September of like a week ago. So I go. And I'm really nervous because I'm like, shoot, like, what if I have five cavities now? Or what if now I need a root canal because I didn't get those fillings? And I go. And it's a very. It's. It's in an office building, not a double wide, but it was a very down to earth place. So I was like, I think I'm gonna like it.

[B]

Sort of run down and falling apart. That's perfect.

[A]

It was like in Green Hills. It was like in a nice. Which the other place is in a nice area too. Anyway, I go, the hygienist is like, your teeth are beautiful. Do you floss? I was like, once a week. And she kind of slapped me on the wrist and she was like, you know, you're supposed to floss every day. And I was like, once a week is doing a lot for me. But she said, you probably have the. The genes to not get gum disease or whatever. And she was like, some people have the genes not to get cavities. And I was like, well, I don't have those jeans.

[B]

You're like, I have the Helen Keller gene. Did you tell her that?

[A]

She would have said that. Yeah, yeah, talk to me the whole time. And I couldn't talk back. And it was a very interesting experience. Anyway, the dentist comes, she comes over and she's like, I've looked at your X rays, your pictures, whatever. She's like, your teeth look beautiful. Nothing like to be concerned with. Do you have any questions for me? And I just looked at her with my mouth agape.

[B]

Oh, your mouth agape? Like, open?

[A]

She was like, yes. And I was like, so, okay. I didn't want to bring this up.

[B]

But I love that you use that word, agape.

[A]

I'm trying to better my vocabulary.

[B]

Yeah, I can tell. I love it.

[A]

I said, okay. The la. The reason I wanted to come here is because I had a bad experience at the last dentist I was at where he said I had 11 cavities. And I said, I only got eight of them filled.

[B]

So do you mean that I only took basically all mouth? So you're like, you sword. Only if I only got three of them filled. You're like, I only got ten and a half of them done. Thank God.

[A]

She's like, okay, well, let me look at the pictures again. She was like, where were they? And I said, well, wherever there isn't a filling, that's where they were, because the rest of my mouth is filled. And she was like, oh, I see. And she's like, oh, this is not of concern. And she said, we really look at this as a baseline when you come back next year when we do pictures again. If there's a change, that still doesn't mean that you need a filling. At that point, we might just be more aggressive with whatever cleanings we do. But she said, this also can go away with good cleanings and flossing you don't. She was like. She said, maybe I'm more conservative than other people, but there's no need for a filling. And I said, well, I wish I would have come back here three years ago. Like, can you believe it? I mean, yeah. But.

[B]

Yeah, it's sad, but it's going to put me on guard for, like, when I'm in appointments. I just trust what they're telling me because they're the experts. Yeah. So I think my takeaways are. I can't just trust what they're telling me, especially if they have really nice furniture.

[A]

100%. Yeah. If there's a fancy TV at every single chair, they got to pay. This is the other thing, too. I had to pay for those fillings out of pocket because then my insurance was denied, which I also was like, this is Yalls fault. Y' all ran my insurance before I got these. You gave me an estimate of what I would pay. I paid that. And then you're asking me for more money because you didn't do due diligence of making sure that I didn't have pediatric dental insurance.

[B]

Wait, so can you get representation patient? And do we need to go to People's Court?

[A]

Honestly?

[B]

Or Judge Judy or. Like, what? Like, because I think that.

[A]

Don't you think I was taken advantage of?

[B]

You absolutely were taken advantage of. Especially if you didn't have 11 cavities and then you were paying out of pocket. Yeah, like, that part, I don't know. That's tragic with your insurance company. But they ran my pediatric insurance. Right. I know. The whole thing is just a perfect storm for a lot of money taken from you and time.

[A]

And because I don't understand, this is where I think that also, I'm disappointed myself that I get overwhelmed by things that I don't understand. Instead of trying to understand things and educate myself, I just throw my hands up. So I just. I did, like, whittle them down to pay less than what they were originally trying to get me to pay. But this was also, like, right around my wedding, too. So I was, like, overwhelmed with stuff, and I just wanted them to stop calling me, asking me for money. So I just ended up, at the end of the day, paying it to be done with it. But, yeah, I think I. I'm angry and resentful because I'm like, you guys took advantage of a young girl that you knew that I didn't really know what I was talking about. And also because I hadn't been to the dentist in that many years, you knew that you could probably convince me that I needed these things.

[B]

I feel like you need to walk back in there with your current dentist information. Like, get it in writing that you don't have cavities, and this is not a concern. And sort of like, I know you've never seen Pretty Woman, but she gets treated poorly at a store when she's shopping. And then she gets her glow up, and she goes and spends a bunch of money because she went in there because she had cash to spend from Richard Gere. And then she goes, gets all dressed up, she looks really nice. Walks in with all these bags, and the people working are like, oh, she's about to spend some money. Let's be nice to her. Treat her completely different than the first time she came in. And she's like, big mistake. Huge. I have to go shopping now. And she leaves. She's like, remember me? I feel like you should walk in there and be like, hey, remember me? I have no cavities. I mean, I don't know what the big Mistake is like, I have to go to another dentist now. Less bougie.

[A]

But I, like, felt safer at the less bougie one because I was like, these people feel down. Down to earth. Like, these people feel like it's probably.

[B]

Comfort from back in the day when you're in the double life.

[A]

But also they felt more like, you know, sometimes. And I don't even think that people do this on purpose, but sometimes when you can feel less than somebody who, like, has a big degree or knows about something you don't know about, and so you just. I don't know. I do that when I'm in spaces where I don't understand things and people seem smarter than me. But in. In this experience, I felt like I was on the same level as the dentist, even though she knew way more about my teeth than me. I also learned something. What I know I have a little bit of a lisp.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Why I have a tongue thrust.

[B]

Oh, that sounds dirty. Because I wanted tongue thrust.

[A]

So I want to get Invisalign to. I have a little gap in my front two front teeth, and I wanted to close it. And she said before we can do that. And we'll what?

[B]

Well, I like your lisp. Like, I don't want you to change.

[A]

Like, I like, but the gap keeps getting bigger. So if I don't ever get it fixed, then the gap is going to continue to grow. Okay, that's the problem. And so. And she said it. There's other things that it does. And my teeth don't touch. Like, I can't bite a sandwich and pull it away. My teeth don't come together.

[B]

So how do you eat a sandwich?

[A]

I have to use my tongue to, like, wiggle it apart. So she said, if I just get Invisalign, I'll be able to, like, fix my gap. But as soon as I stop wearing it, the gap will come back. Because my. My tongue, normal people's tongue sits at the roof of their mouth. Mine sits the front of my. Pushes my teeth out. Like, when I swallow, it pushes my teeth out. And she said, your tongue is a very strong muscle, and it wins every time. Wow. So I have to do tongue exercises.

[B]

Like, give me an example of one.

[A]

She said to get a thing of tic tacs and take a tic tac and hold it on the roof of my mouth until it dissolves just to get my tongue to start to remember to stick.

[B]

Do we have any idea of how long that takes?

[A]

Well, I looked at her. I said, that seems like that would Take a long time. She said, well, that's just. It is what it is.

[B]

Yeah, but you could do it while you're driving or something.

[A]

And she said, pick like a object, like a doorknob or something like that. And every time you see that doorknob, ask yourself, where's my tongue sitting? And, like, reposition your tongue.

[B]

Oh, like you have, like, prompts around.

[A]

Your house to, like, doorknob, tongue. Where are you?

[B]

Where is my tongue? Yeah, my tongue.

[A]

Thrust.

[B]

Do you say thrust? Thrust.

[A]

Thrust.

[B]

I don't want you to pick your. I don't want you to fix your tongue. Thrust. But I get it. I think your lisp is so cute.

[A]

Oh, thank you.

[B]

It's subtle.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

And I like your little gap in your teeth. But I mean, I get it.

[A]

If it would just stay where it is, that's fine. Fine. But in the last year or two, it is growing and growing and growing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, one day, I get it.

[B]

You. I mean, you probably wouldn't just be able to bite down on a sandwich and not have to use your tongue to wiggle it. Well, you know, something that you are an expert in. I know you felt like less than at the dentist. Well, the bougie one. But I'm thinking about how you as a therapist are very wise in your field, and I bet your clients come into your space and feel welcome. We've been made to believe that saying yes is a good thing, but I've realized there's a big difference between doing it intentionally and doing it unintentionally. Isopure protein helps you focus on more of what matters, like feeling your best every day with great tasting nutrition. That's high protein and also low carb. If you need that. Isopure fits seamlessly into your lifestyle, and that's why I've added it to my daily routine. I use Isopure unflavored protein in recipes like pasta sauce and guacamole. During the week, with 25 grams of ultra filtered protein and 0 carbs plus 20 vitamins and minerals, you can boost nearly any recipe without changing the taste of your favorite foods. I've already restocked four times because I add the Isopure unflavored to everything. You can try the Isopure vanilla to blend 25 grams of protein into your smoothies or your oatmeal. Or check out Isopure clear protein water with 15 grams of protein, which supports hydration with electrolytes and a light berry flavor. Enjoy more of what matters [e-mail] and get 20% off your order. When you use code FEEL20 at checkout. You know those days when it's hot, the sun's doing way too much and you're digging through your freezer looking for something that hits the spot. Not too heavy, not too sweet, just refreshing. That's when you need Luigi's Real Italian Ice. Real fruit juice. No high fructose corn syrup, no dairy, no fat, just icy fruity goodness that's low in calories and high in. Gimme some of that, please. Luigi's has flavors that your whole family will love. You've got your classics like lemon, strawberry and cherry. And then there's mango, blue, raspberry, watermelon, kiwi, strawberry and red, white and blue swirl. For those fourth of July vibes. Luigi's is super easy to grab and go. No mess, no dripping, just peel the lid and enjoy. It's great for backyard hangouts, birthday parties, or a be honest standing at the freezer door pretending you're only going to eat one. You can even blend them into your favorite mocktail or cocktail. Treat your real self with Luigi's. Find Luigi's Real Italian Ice chilling in the freezer aisle of your favorite grocery store. So I've been open with my own struggles about body image and disordered eating over the years. That's how a way even came about was in my own recovery. And on this show we're very open about the fact that all of this stuff, the eating disorders, disordered eating, body image stuff, it's way more common than you think and you don't have to live that way. Recovery is possible. So if you're struggling with your eating habits or body image or you're worried about a loved one, I want to introduce you to Equip. It's a virtual evidence based eating disorder treatment program that's proven to help people recover at home. They treat all ages, all diagnosis and it's covered by insurance and there's no wait list. If you think you or a loved one could be struggling, don't wait to get help. Visit Equip Health Outway to learn more. That's Equip Health Outway. I bet your clients come into your space and feel welcome and not less than, less than and safe. And I feel like you do a really good job at that and I'm excited for you to kind of do that with us as we kick off criticism because you definitely know about it way more than I do. So I'm ready to learn and talk about it with you. And I'm sure, listeners, beautiful transition. Oh, thanks.

[A]

Yeah, thanks.

[B]

Good job.

[A]

Okay. I don't say it like that.

[B]

I know. I don't know why I just did that to be, like, lighten the mood a little bit. I know you don't, but it's so cute. But I get wanting to fix it. It's fine. But I still. I'll go back to you with the dentist. I'll go to the bougie dentist with you and be like, yeah. I'd be like, remember her big mistake? Huge.

[A]

And then we just walk out, and.

[B]

They'Re like, we have to go shopping now. And they're like, what? And we're like, well, it makes sense to us, you losers. But I do think, like, you should be able to try to get that money back. Like, I'm angry for you in that. Like, there needs to be justice here. And I wonder how many other people they've bamboozled.

[A]

Yeah. I think that. Because I'm trying to also think back to, like, what do I need? I think what I need is just to, like, one, be able to vent about it, and then I want to, like, save somebody else from that happening to them. Because I wish I could go back and have just gotten a second opinion and then been like, I'm not. I'm never going back to you. But I. I hate the feeling of being taken advantage of. And know what? The other feeling, you know that I hate is wasting money.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Because, you know, I love a deal. And I just. I'm thinking about, what could I have done with that? Those thousands of dollars that I spent there?

[B]

Well, if you wanted to criticize that, Dennis, I am all for it, but.

[A]

I would rather complain about the dentist.

[B]

Exactly. And that's what we're gonna get into. Because there's a difference in sharing a complaint and then criticizing. So let's hop on that horse.

[A]

Let's hop on the complaint horse. Okay.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So we're going to talk about the Four Horsemen. Not the four horsemen of history, but the Four Horsemen that Dr. John Gottman created. And he created this out of all his research he did around love and relationships, where he is, like a. I would say, world renowned expert in this field. Like, if you want to be a couples therapist, a lot of times you will be trained by the Gottman Institute. And I will say, I wouldn't call myself an expert in relationships. In couples therapy, I don't do couples therapy. The only time I'll see couples is if, like, a client wants to bring their partner in for a session. So thank you for saying that. I'm really smart in certain areas, and.

[B]

You'Ve been preparing for this. And also, I did couples therapy for no, I'm not at all. But I was just kind of making a joke of like, does that somewhat make me a little bit qualified to talk about some things? But then we ended in divorce, so. But I think that's okay. That's the information we got out of our. We did a very intense year of therapy leading up to that to make that decision. So it wasn't taken lightly.

[A]

Did they talk about the Four Horsemen at all?

[B]

We did not.

[A]

Okay. So what the Four Horsemen are is these four styles of communication that Dr. Gottman found that could help him predict the demise of a relationship. So if you had these four things and he saw you using these four things regularly without trying to shift or change with 90 accuracy rate, he could say, this couple isn't probably not going to make it. Which is wild, but also speaks to how important this stuff is and how detrimental things that sometimes we don't mean them to be this way. And I will say a lot of times, specifically what we're going to talk about criticism. A lot of times, we're not meaning to criticize, to ruin our relationship. We're trying to connect with somebody or meet a need. We just do it in a way that sets us up to fail. So the Four Horsemen, which we're going to split up. Criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling. If you're like, what is that? Don't worry. Stay tuned in the next four weeks. Today we're going to do criticism. So do you have anything that you want to say about criticism before we jump in?

[B]

As I mentioned at the start of the episode, I'm guilty of it. And I think as I was reading through it, my heart broke for people that have to live or living in a household where criticism is showing up all the time, because I just would feel so sad to have to live that way. And I know, again, I did it. I had it in my marriage. We had it on both sides. Now, it wasn't all the time, but I wish maybe we had had certain tools or awareness to know, like, oh, this is exactly what's happening. And so my hope is in talking about this, that if anybody sees this in themselves or recognizes, like, oh, shoot, my partner is this way, and I'm exhausted from it, that there is hope for that awareness. And then you can work on it. Because I think, well, there's a lot of tools That I learned later that I think could have helped our relationship. And I think while he was able to assess like with 90% accuracy, I don't think that he's saying that that means that this is gonna happen if you have acted this way or if you act this way, if you have awareness and are willing to do the work and stop acting that way and start doing the. What would you call it? Like just the healthier swap. There's sort of. Oh, the antidote. Yeah, healthier swap antidote. But you can. If your go to is the criticism, then you find a way to swap it. The antidote of I can still make this complaint, but from a caring, thoughtful standpoint that doesn't until get my need met. Does it like tear someone down?

[A]

Yeah. So the difference, you're talking about complaints and, and critiques and then criticism. So criticism is really about somebody's character. When you criticize somebody, you're not talking about a thing that they did once or a specific behavior. It turns into like who they are.

[B]

Yeah. You are bad. You are selfish. You are.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so inconsiderate.

[A]

Right. So he. Dr. Gottman also found in his research, which is crazy. And also like, how do you find all these statistics and percentages, but not our job? The way a conversation starts, he could predict within 96 accuracy rate where it would go, if it would end well or bad. And within the first three minutes, if your conversation starts well, then your conflict is probably going to be managed well.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And if it starts off with one of these things, it's probably going to end not well. Because things do build. Yeah, well, yeah. Unless you're able to like say, oh, I just did that thing. When you criticize somebody, somebody becomes defensive. So once somebody comes defensive, then you're just rolling down this four horsemen hill and what he talked about a lot. And what any therapist or any relationship helper of sorts will say. A healthy relationship is not about getting rid of your conflict. It's about how to manage it. And a lot of times the things that couples argue about or have conflict around are essentially the same thing throughout their relationship. It's. It's going to be the same theme. Might not be the trash every time, but it might be a feeling of like not being heard or something like that. And so it's not about getting rid of it because we all have stuff and we're human. It's how do we manage our conflict well, and if you can manage your conflict well, then that's great. That's better than not having Conflict. Because if you don't have conflict, then there obviously is a lack of vulnerability in the relationship.

[B]

Yeah. Because you don't feel like you can share things.

[A]

Yeah. Things must be pretty. I mean, surface. And, like, are you really sharing and saying the things that are, like, on your heart and that you need? So with criticism, I'm saying something negative about your character in general. What we want are critiques and complaints. Which complaints are great? Think about. Well, this could go two ways, like a complaint box or a feedback box. At a store, Complaints can help the store become better. Right. Like, I don't. I worked at Limited, too, as a young girl, and we had a feedback box. And they'd be helpful things, like things about how the line worked or the displays or how they would like to be able to order things a certain way that help you become better as a store versus if somebody just wrote, like, this place sucks. You never have what we need. I'm like, I don't really know what to do with that. Should we just close?

[B]

All right. Y' all are idiots, right? It's, like, not overall. I mean, maybe this one thing we did was idiotic, but it doesn't mean we are all idiots. I mean, that's how I keep thinking of it, as, like, these very definitive statements of, you know, you are this thing. This always happens. You never do this. And it's like, in reality, is it always happening? Did they never take out the trash ever? Or can they never do this? Right. I mean, maybe they never do. And I know I just said trash, because you use that as an example, but, you know, something that just popped in my head that I know you were a part of because I called you. And maybe you can use this as, like, a little example when we're talking, but do you remember when. Well, in my current relationship with my boyfriend, he was on his way over and on his way to my house, he called an audible and decided he was going back home for whatever reason. That's personal to him and his family. But I was very hurt by it, and I felt like my feelings were very valid. And I called you because I was like, I don't know how to handle this. I don't know what to do because I don't want to be overreacting. And you validated my feelings and that I wasn't overreacting. And so I had to call him and share my complaint. And while he didn't see it in the time, I think if I was in unhealthier times, I would have really lost it on him been like, you always are choosing that over me. And I was able to express that more. So I feel like I'm often second I tried not to use in this scenario. I definitely felt like in this scenario I had expectations of this and I don't know why that is changing because your situation altered a little bit and it wasn't anything that in my opinion warranted changing our plans. Right. But it hurt me and I felt like I needed to communicate that. And I don't know that he fully got it at the moment. I think he took time to process. But the cool thing was I felt heard. And that was a really big step in our relationship. And looking back on it, I don't think in the moment I appreciated the communication that we had, but it was such a, like a. I can exhale about it now because in my marriage and I played a part in this too, we didn't, we didn't handle communication like that. And now as co parents we do though. So there could have been hope, who knows? But shoulda, coulda, woulda. We're not there anymore. But even in our co parenting, like my ex husband and I like we have our code word. I bet John Gottman, if he were listening to some of our conversations, when we have to use our code word to just end a conversation and circle back later, I bet that's because the first whatever you said, 30 seconds or three minutes or whatever it was of the conversation, we were headed down a path of like there was no saving this conversation. And so I guess and if we were still married, we'd probably sit there and go round and round and try to figure it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But in our co parenting we've just been like pickle. Pickles. Our word. If someone says pickle, we hang up and we circle back. Yeah. And we're probably because we, we started, we started unhealthy, but at least now we have our code word.

[A]

And then you can start again because I think what you're explaining in the conversation with your boyfriend that you maybe didn't have it as much in your marriage is maybe something wasn't resolved. But you felt heard in that feeling of, oh, this person does. This person does care about me. Like, okay, we have to figure this out.

[B]

His action made me feel like instantly he does not care about me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I could have stayed with that story. I guess I'm also just sharing the two different my marriage and then this again for how I, I like to be. I like to offer hope.

[A]

Okay. We do have hope at the bottom of this, once we talk about what this looks like and we're gonna. You kind of started this off, so this is great. What actually the criticism looks like, then we'll talk about the antidote. And like, that's what I like about John Gottman is he doesn't just like, say like, you're doomed. He says, these are the things that don't work. But don't worry, we have something that does.

[B]

Okay. Yay.

[A]

We can swap this out if you're willing to work on it. So, yeah, you started talking about like the all or nothing talking or the all or nothing thinking and speech. So let's start with that.

[B]

We've been made to believe that saying yes is a good thing, but I've realized there's a big difference between doing it intentionally and doing it unintentionally. Isopure protein helps you focus on more of what matters. Like feeling your best every day with great tasting nutrition. That's high protein and also low carb. If you need that. Isopure fits seamlessly into your lifestyle, and that's why I've added it to my daily routine. I use Isopure unflavored protein in recipes like pasta sauce and guacamole during the week. With 25 grams of ultra filtered protein and zero carbs. Perfect. Plus 20 vitamins and minerals, you can boost nearly any recipe without changing the taste of your favorite foods. I've already restocked four times because I add the Isopure unflavored to everything. You can try the Isopure vanilla to blend 25 grams of protein into your smoothies or your oatmeal. Or check out Isopure Clear protein water with 15 grams of protein, which supports hydration with electrolytes and a light berry flavor. Enjoy more of what matters [e-mail] and get 20% off your order when you use code FEEL20 at checkout. You know those days when it's hot, the sun's doing way too much, and you're digging through your freezer looking for something that hits the spot. Not too heavy, not too sweet, just refreshing. That's when you need Luigi's Real Italian Ice, real fruit juice. No high fructose corn syrup, no dairy, no fat, just icy fruity goodness that's low in calories and high in. Gimme some of that, please. Luigi's has flavors that your whole family will love. You've got your classics like lemon, strawberry and cherry. And then there's mango blue, raspberry Watermelon, kiwi, strawberry and red, white and blue swirl for those fourth of July vibes. Luigi's is super easy to grab and go. No mess, no dripping, just peel the lid and enjoy. It's great for backyard hangouts, birthday parties, or let's be honest, standing at the freezer door pretending you're only going to eat one. You can even blend them into your favorite mocktail or cocktail. Treat your real self with Luigi's. Find Luigi's Real Italian Ice chilling in the freezer aisle of your favorite grocery store. So I've been open with my own struggles about body image and disordered eating over the years. That's how Au Way even came about, was in my own recovery. And on this show we're very open about the fact that all of this stuff, the eating disorders, disordered eating, body image stuff, it's way more common than you think. And you don't have to live that way. Recovery is possible. So if you're struggling with your eating habits or body image or you're worried about a loved one, I want to introduce you to Equip. It's a virtual evidence based eating disorder treatment program that's proven to help people recover at home. They treat all ages, all diagnosis and it's covered by insurance and there's no wait list. If you think you or a loved one could be struggling, don't wait to get help. Visit Equip Health Outway to learn more. That's Equip Health slash Outway.

[A]

So you were talking about the all or nothing thinking. So exaggerating is a big way that criticism shows up. You always do this. You never do this. And with the dishes, the dishes is just a really good blanket example to use to describe stuff because I think a lot of us have had frustrations about the dishes or the trash or something like that. But if I say to my partner, you never put the dishes away, I always have to do it myself. You're so lazy. Well, if that's not true, they might be like, that's not true. I did it last week on Thursday. And like, maybe that was the only time he did it in that year. But he immediately goes to defend his character and becomes defensive. And then what happens with me is I can be like, see, you just care about yourself. All you care about is defending yourself. That you're not even listening to what I'm saying. But the problem is I'm not actually expressing what I actually want to be expressing. Expressing. Because criticism is such a, I don't want to say low Stakes, because it is high stakes, but it's a way for me to express my needs with armor on. So I'm not really expressing my needs. My needs might be like, hey, I am exhausted and I feel like I've had a really long week and I need some help with the dishes. Could you help put them away? I know I usually do them and that's like our. Maybe that's even our deal that I put the dishes away or it's like an unspoken thing. I really need help tonight. Can you help me? I'm sure if you're in a loving relationship, your partner will be like, oh, my gosh, you know what? I don't want to do the dishes either. They might say that in their head, but I would love to do that for you if that's going to help your day be better versus me attacking them.

[B]

What? Do you know Selena Gomez's. What's his name? Her fiance? Yeah. Benny. Benny Blanco.

[A]

What could this.

[B]

Sorry, I'm not derailing totally, but a little bit. Did you know he said he wakes up every day and asks himself, what can I do to make Selena's day better?

[A]

Well, does he do that every day? That's all or nothing.

[B]

That's what he said. He's like, I know. I was like, wow, what's that? Like, could you imagine what if. So, Yeah. I mean, I don't know. He. He seems like he.

[A]

He does love her.

[B]

He does love her. Yeah, I know. That was a derail, but I was like, really? Do you really do that? And then he gifts her things like bathtubs full of queso.

[A]

Wait, what?

[B]

Yeah. You didn't know that he filled up a bathtub full of queso for her? Yum.

[A]

In their house? That's disgusting.

[B]

I know. But they have a lot of money, so I don't really know how they maybe new bathtub or they like just suck it out with some special equipment. Like, I don't know, because you can't just like put that down the drain. But anyway, let's just. I. I know I brought that up, but I'm like, most of us are not in a relationship where we wake up and we're like, what can I do to just make my person's day better? But I think it's okay for us to maybe have that as underlying of like, I'm in this partnership. I love this person. So if I have an opportunity to help make their day better, well, gosh darn it, I won't try.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. In you saying that if there's something I can do that I'm unaware of. Like, I want my partner to tell me me, it might not be the top of mind. I might not be thinking like, Benny is like, what can I do all the time? But if there's something that I'm either hurting or if there's something small like that I could do, I would love my partner to tell me, but they have to tell me in a caring way versus insult me as they're telling it to me because then I'm not going to want to do it. Okay, so exaggerating. It sounds like exaggerating. It also sounds like why questions. So if I'm like, why do you always hang your clothes like that in your closet? Why do you always put your dirty laundry on the floor? Why do you pull your car into the garage like that? Like, there's just random things. But that is then asking somebody to defend themselves. So we immediately also go into defensiveness. And that's something that. Why? Why is hard because as therapists were trained to not use that word very often because it does put somebody on the defense immediately. So we have to be creative around, like, okay, if I. If I am curious about that, I do want to know what's another way I can say that. So I'll say a lot. I'm curious about this, or I wonder about this, or I've been wondering about this. And do you see how, like, I've been wondering why. Well, now I'm wondering why I'm one. I've been wondering about the way that you hang your clothes. It's a little different than mine. That's very different than, like, why do you hang your clothes like that.

[B]

Yeah. Or if it's more behavior that's not like a household chore. I'm trying to think of, like, what's popping into my mind of if your partner's snippy or something. Like, instead of saying, why do you have this attitude? Or why are you snippy? Or could you say it like this? Like, what has gone on today that might have you on edge? Is that okay? Is that bad? Because then they have to answer, well, you can use, well, nothing. I didn't know I was on edge. So I guess maybe that's not.

[A]

You can use this antidote that we're going to talk about.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, I'm giving, like, little examples of this, But I think that example. Hold on to it. Because there's a way that we can use what I'm going to share later to form a really good Statement.

[B]

Okay. Because I really was trying. I'm trying to ask it with, like, you know, curiosity, like, and care. But once that came out of my mouth, I was like, oh, I don't know that that sounds good.

[A]

And I think that's the difficult part of this, is a way to retrain how we communicate with each other.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if your immediate response is, and I'm saying all of this, I could use examples of just me doing this because I fall into this sometimes. So even as somebody who knows about this and works with this and reads about this for fun, like, I still can sometimes be like, oh, that was not the best way to say that. And I'll. I'll say that to specifically my husband when I say something, and I'm like, that's not how I meant it. Can I restart? And that's okay to be able to, like, we're gonna rewind. That's not how I meant that to come out.

[B]

It's sort of like you have to ask a jury to forget something. You know, like in a trial or a case. I don't know. I don't knew the legal jargon, because they're like, objection.

[A]

And then they're like, yeah, sustained.

[B]

Or jury act like you never heard that. And I'm like, sitting there and I'm like, if I was a juror, and all of a sudden I have this information that probably is, but it's not admissible in court for some. I don't even know if that's what you would say, but you know what I mean. Like, suddenly you have to strike that from the record, but you already know it. How do you know it?

[A]

Yeah, it's hard.

[B]

Similar in a relationship. It's like we. Wait, you just said that. And now I'm supposed to just act like you didn't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But anyway, that's where the work comes in.

[A]

I've been watching the Better Sister. Did you watch that?

[B]

Oh, yeah. With Jessica Biel.

[A]

Did you like it?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You don't like it.

[A]

We'll talk about it. Maybe offline, because I don't want to spoil anything, but could have been half as long, too many story lines going on. But the court made me think about that because they did a lot of objection. Okay, so we have exaggerating. We have why questions. It also sounds like making a joke. So this is like passive aggressiveness where if somebody does something, I mean, I have another household chore example in my head. Maybe it's because, like, I don't like doing household chores myself. That I have all these examples, but if one time I asked Patrick to vacuum the stairs. I hate vacuuming the stairs. And he didn't, I think has a vacuum died because we have one of the cordless vacuums, so you can't use it when it's plugged in. And then he had to go do something and then I ended up doing it and I was a little perturbed about it. So when he came back. Are you smiling? Cuz I used a big word.

[B]

Perturbed? Yeah, yeah. My mouth was a gape.

[A]

So Patrick came back and I made some passive aggressive joke like you got out of your chores again today or something like that. And he was like, I plugged it in. I was gonna do it when I got home. And then I was like, don't worry, I already did it. And I was upset, but I was playing it off like a haha, you gotta have your chores. And I didn't get what I needed. And then he was like upset too, because he was like, I wanted to do that. So rather than making a joke, I could have been like, hey, I vacuumed the stairs while you were gone because I just wanted it done next time that happens in the vacuum dies. Maybe we could sweep them.

[B]

Wow, Sweep them. Do they have carpet?

[A]

They're hard. They. Well, now I have carpet stairs, but I had hardwood floors.

[B]

I'm like sitting there, see, watching Patrick like sweep the carpet. Little piece of dust here. Yeah, Next time, next we have carpet.

[A]

You could be like, I don't understand how that would work.

[B]

Yeah, next time, can you get on your hands, hands and knees and pick up the dart with your fingers, please? Thanks. Well, I guess in his case, had you had the full story, it totally would have made sense.

[A]

But I think I did have the whole story. I just still was annoyed.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

But I think as we talk about the antidote, like I didn't express my feelings. And so when I even just like the story I told about the dentist, like I become resentful about my anger when I'm not able to like share my anger. So I was holding in my anger because I didn't want to be vulnerable with him. And then I became resentful versus like, hey, I felt angry when you left to go do that thing and I was here still cleaning and you left and we were having fun. He went to do a fun thing and then I was still. And it's not like he just was like, I'm not doing this anymore. This is pre planned.

[B]

Yeah, well, now he knows too. That Sweeping is an option. I can't see a guy if a guy's like, she told me to vacuum and the vacuum's dead. Like, very logical. I'm not gonna lump all men into it. We're not going to do that. But most people, or I'm thinking, even like kids and stuff, like, they're going to think, well, I need to charge the vacuum. They might not go next level and be like, oh, well, duh, I can just sweep it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He didn't know what? He didn't know, but now he knows.

[A]

Now this is no excuse.

[B]

No excuse.

[A]

Okay, so that's the using humor and then the last one.

[B]

Humor, sarcasm. You're hilarious.

[A]

So funny.

[B]

I noticed you didn't vacuum the stairs. Yeah, so funny. I mean, but dealing with the passive aggressiveness is.

[A]

And playing. We've all said things that we like. We're like, hahaha. But really we're like seething underneath. Okay, so the last one is should. Using should. So telling somebody they should do something or shouldn't do something, you should do it this way. You shouldn't do that way.

[B]

You should have swept the stairs, you idiot.

[A]

Right. That would be using two at once.

[B]

Yeah, you get a twofer.

[A]

But this also. The dishwasher is coming to me with this, which we have a new. A different kind of dishwasher in our new house. There's three levels. There's like a level for the silverware instead of using it, putting it in the basket, and then another level. So we're trying to figure out how to like, organize things. And I could easily be like, patrick, you shouldn't do it like that. You should do it this way. And like, that's saying that there is a right way and a wrong way. And like, he's an idiot basically for not doing it this way versus saying like, hey, I've learned that when you put the cups in on this shelf, it actually cleans them better when you do this. I've learned that it. The water is able to. He has this thing about you put too much stuff at the bottom, then the water can't get up and clean things.

[B]

Does the water only come from the bottom though?

[A]

I have no idea.

[B]

Well, I always was like, that's an.

[A]

Interesting thought because I've always put the big stuff at the bottom.

[B]

Yeah. Because I think that's where it goes. But yes, I have the. When I moved into this house, that was my first time having three rows. The silverware is on the tiny tray up top and you have to line it up it's kind of annoying. Yeah, I much prefer the basket. Stick it in a basket. But I feel like I've just always thought, water's like coming from all angles, is it not?

[A]

I have no idea.

[B]

I have never questioned that. I have no idea either. But you have to put big things on the bottom. Otherwise surely that that would be a design flaw.

[A]

Well, and then I'm like, well, you. Anyway, there's no right or wrong way. There's just a, like a way that I prefer. This way he prefers. But then if I'm really trying to, like, help him, like, if. If he didn't know there was a tray at the top for the silverware. Like, hey, I learned that there's a tray up here and it cleans the silverware better if you put it in this tray. Do you want me to help you put the dishes in the dishwasher? That's a different way than being like, hey, you should do it this way, or hey, you shouldn't do that. In that school, they taught us that when you use that word towards yourself, they would say, stop shooting all over yourself and stop shooting on your partner.

[B]

Like grad school.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For therapy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I was, at first I was like, oh, they went over that in like, yeah, junior high. Yeah. Stop shooting all over yourself and your people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Should it all over him. Okay, so no shoulds, no shirts. I. I need to work on that.

[A]

It's hard. And especially kids should involves shame. So, like, when we're doing it towards ourselves or other people, it sends this message of like, oh, I'm an idiot. Like, I should have known. Like, why didn't I know? Oh, must be because something negative about me. That's what it looks like, what it sounds like. That's what we don't want to do. Now to your favorite part.

[B]

The antidote, the hope.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We've been made to believe that saying yes is a good thing. But I've realized there's a big difference between doing it intentionally and doing it unintentionally. Isopure protein helps you focus on more of what matters, like feeling your best every day with great tasting nutrition. That's high protein and also low carb. If you need that. Isopure fits seamlessly into your lifestyle, and that's why I've added it to my daily routine. I use Isopure unflavored protein in recipes like pasta sauce and guacamole during the week. With 25 grams of ultra filtered protein and zero carbs, plus 20 vitamins and minerals, you can Boost nearly any recipe without chocolate changing the taste of your favorite foods. I've already restocked four times because I add the Isopure unflavored to everything. You can try the Isopure vanilla to blend 25 grams of protein into your smoothies or your oatmeal. Or check out Isopure Clear protein water with 15 grams of protein, which supports hydration with electrolytes and a light berry flavor. Enjoy more of what matters [e-mail] and get 20% off your order when you use code FEEL20 at checkout. You know those days when it's hot, the sun's doing way too much and you're digging through your freezer looking for something that hits the spot. Not too heavy, not too sweet, just refreshing. That's when you need Luigi's Real Italian Ice. Real fruit juice. No high fructose corn syrup, no dairy, no fat, just icy fruity goodness that's low in calories and high in Gimme some of that please. Luigi's has flavors that your whole family will love. You've got your classics like lemon, strawberry and cherry. And then there's mango, blue, raspberry, watermelon, kiwi, strawberry and red, white and blue swirl for those fourth of July vibes. Luigi's is super easy to grab and go. No mess, no dripping, just peel the lid and enjoy. It's great for backyard hangouts, birthday parties, or let's be honest, standing at the freezer door pretending you're only going to eat one. You can even blend them into your favorite mocktail or cocktail. Treat your real self with Luigi's. Find Luigi's Real Italian Ice chilling in the freezer aisle of your favorite grocery store. So I've been open with my own struggles about body image and disordered eating over the years. That's how outweigh even came about was in my own recovery. And on this show we're very open about the fact that all of this stuff, the eating disorders, disordered eating, body image stuff, it's way more common than you think and you don't have to live that way. Recovery is possible. So if you're struggling with your eating habits or body image or you're worried about a loved one, I want to introduce you to Equip. It's a virtual evidence based eating disorder treatment program that's proven to help people recover at home. They treat all ages, all diagnosis and it's covered by insurance and there's no wait list. If you think you or a loved one could be Struggling. Don't wait to get help. Visit Equip Health Outway to learn more. That's Equip Health. Slow outway.

[A]

Now to your favorite part, the antidote. So for criticism, it is called the either gentle startup or soft startup. So when I say that, does anything come to mind?

[B]

Vroom, vroom. I don't know why that.

[A]

What do I like a gentle start.

[B]

Of a call instead of, like.

[A]

You'Re not revving your engine. You're just.

[B]

I'm just pedal, like, being. Well, I don't know why sound effects come to my brain first, but that's what you asked me and I shared honestly.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Allow me to be vulnerable. What you're like, anything come to mind? And I'm just over here like.

[A]

But that's gonna help people because.

[B]

Because you don't want to, like, start it aggressively.

[A]

Sometimes you need those little, like, ear worms to remind you things. Like, I still. When I'm in a parking garage, you know what I've started saying? What? Green level two. Green level two. Green, Green. Green level two. You know where I got that parked?

[B]

That's where I'm parked. I'm parked on green level two.

[A]

I got that from you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, Because. Yes.

[B]

That's what I have to do to myself, or else I'll forget. And then I also could take a picture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But green level 2, it's more fun. It's more fun. Just sing yourself a song.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So with this, it's like, okay, what was the antidote? And somebody might remember.

[B]

The antidote. Start softly. Okay, so we're starting softly. And then what?

[A]

Okay, so with a complaint, it's still going to probably not feel the coziest because it's not an affirmation. Right. I'm not coming to you with, like, this is great news about something. It still might feel a little bit stingy. And so the soft startup just kind of eases that discomfort a little bit. So don't immediately just get, like, all spiky and defensive. So with this. This was like. I think we've talked about. Well, I know we've talked about a lot of times that script to help express yourself. Like, when you blank. I feel this. Da, da, da, da. This is.

[B]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure when I had that conflict with my boyfriend, he. When he was driving to my house, and then he turned around and did a 180 on our plans. I used our script.

[A]

Okay, well, this is just like a. It's almost the same thing. It's just like a Different version of.

[B]

It'S not our script, but you know what I mean.

[A]

Well, yeah, it's the script that we like to use.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So in this gentle startup, it is. I feel blank when blank happened. I need blank. So it's your feeling what the facts were and then what you need. Now what you want to focus on here is I statements versus like when you did this, it made me feel like I feel overwhelmed when the dishes are not done. Blank, blank, blank. Whatever time I need some help putting them away or I need some help doing them on Tuesday nights or something like that, versus when you never help me, I feel pissed off, you don't love me.

[B]

You're lazy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

When in reality, I mean, who knows? Someone actually might be with someone lazy, but let's say you're not. Maybe they have had a long day, you know, they're not overall lazy.

[A]

Well, and I'm glad you said that because when we get into one of these kind of blow up kind of things when there is criticism that turns into like a bigger argument, bigger conflict. It's usually not about that thing. It's like the straw that broke the camel's back and, and you do need something. This is a bid for connection. It just isn't done in a way that doesn't set you up well. So yeah, it's probably not that the dishes are the problem. It might be that you've something happened at work or something's been building up or there's been a couple things that have stressed you out and this is just the straw that broke their camel's back. So it would suck if this is the thing that ends your day in disarray when it could be the thing that like brings you together and makes you feel cared for and heard. So I feel blank when blank.

[B]

What I need is what I need.

[A]

This is. Yeah, this is what I need. Super simple, but sometimes hard to remember. So I'm glad we have the room. And then I have just a couple tips that can help us while we're doing that. Okay. Okay. So one, you might express some gratitude while you're sharing your complaint. Like I loved last week when you blank or it was really helpful when I came home and this happened or when you said this to me, I felt really whatever. So share with somebody. I mean you maybe even start with that. Share with something that you really like or appreciate. So they're like, oh, she's being nice to me, or he's being nice to me before you're just bust in with something negative. Another One, don't pile them on. This can be a little hard because.

[B]

Because when you're worked up.

[A]

Yeah. Well. And because some of these things might feel really small. I think a lot of us that are conflict avoidant are like, I don't want to make this big deal, so I'm just not going to say anything. But then they stockpile. So when I finally do share that, I'm annoyed about the trash, or I'm annoyed about the way he sent a text, or I'm annoyed. Whatever it is that they did, I opened the floodgates.

[B]

You're like the Kool Aid man busting through the fence. Do you remember those commercials when you were a kid? The Kool Aid Man.

[A]

Yeah. But I just love that that's where your brain went.

[B]

Oh, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

His big old Kool Aid and come busting through and like the Kool Aid Man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You always knew when he arrived. So I feel like it was a.

[A]

Good thing when he showed up. Right. Because it wasn't like a party, I guess.

[B]

But I mean, he still broke the fence or the wall or whatever he was busting through.

[A]

Don't want.

[B]

And like, you don't know. And now surely there's like red dye in there. You don't want to be that. Yeah. Toxic. Yeah. Can you say damaging to the body? Can you say carcinogenic?

[A]

Yeah. Cancer to the relationship.

[B]

You don't. Yes, exactly. Wow.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So you don't want to be that. You don't want to be. Yeah, Cancer, relationship. You don't want to be a tumor.

[A]

You don't want to be the Kool Aid man, even though you might want to drink Kool Aid.

[B]

Yeah. Now I'm trying to think of that Arnold Schwarzenegger quote about a tumor. It's not a tumor. What is talking about?

[A]

You have a good Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[B]

Oh, well. Oh, also this one.

[A]

Can you do groove from me?

[B]

No, I don't think. But I can do the Russian from Rocky 4.

[A]

I've never seen any of the Rockies.

[B]

He dies, he dies. Or if I die, I die. The exact quote. If he dies, he dies. I haven't seen any of the other ones. Besides four. It's apparently the best one. So if you watch any Rockies, he.

[A]

Russian or Italian?

[B]

Russian. Oh, remember how my sister. My sister and I. Yeah. We would talk Russian to each other, like, hello, sister. And then one time I got a speeding ticket and I recorded myself on a cassette tape to my dad, but I did it in my Russian voice because we would always say hello. Father. I was too embarrassed to tell him my conflict I was avoiding. But if I got into character, I was able to admit my mistake. My armor. Yeah. It was my. My. I was hiding behind my little Russian accent and a cassette tape. I didn't even do it.

[A]

Which is humor. Yeah.

[B]

Because we didn't have voice on us. No. Maybe we had cell phones, but they were very new, so I probably was avoiding it. We definitely had cell phones. Because I got a cell phone my senior year of high school, and I was in college when this happened, and I remember just.

[A]

You could have left a voice, but I.

[B]

Sure. But mailing him a cassette tape, so he had to, like, find a. Which wasn't as hard to find because he probably had one in his car and put it in, and it was like, me, hello, Father, your daughter. And then I blamed it on him. I said, your daughter seems to have inherited what you call a lead foot. Like, implying I got it from him. And I was like. And I got the ticket and got pulled over, and I'm gonna need $150 or something, and my insurance is probably gonna go up. I'm sorry.

[A]

Wait. You do sound like Gru from the circle.

[B]

Me? Oh, is that how he. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, then I guess I can talk like him.

[A]

Wow. Okay.

[B]

So, actress, if you ever have some. Something really, like, say you want to.

[A]

Confront your partner, but that's using humor.

[B]

Which, if it helps, it's not passive aggressive. Like, I was trying to be aggressive.

[A]

But it is conflict avoidant. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I was. I had shame and whatever. Like, I'm bad. Like, I'm a terrible driver. My dad's gonna be so mad at me, and maybe this will make him, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Still like me. Well, not that he wasn't gonna like me, you know, that was dramatic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

It sounds a little too, like you're trying to get out of school some trouble.

[B]

I was trying to get a little trouble. Of course I was.

[A]

Yeah. So I do say if. If it helps you to bring in some humor to get in the door, but at some point, you're gonna have to drop it. So, I mean, that's a different example.

[B]

Hello, lover. Why do you do the dishwasher this way? Oh, sorry. Sorry. Lover. Lover. You know what I have learned is if you stack the dishes this way, it clean better.

[A]

Yeah. I also think that you just saying that brings the levity to things that, like, feel sometimes. Have you ever been one of those moments when you do see that somebody didn't take the Trash out. And you're like, oh, you just. Do you want to throw something that humor reminds you that, like, it's just the trash.

[B]

I just thought of an example of as a mom and whimsical. You know how we say, bring the whimsy? And we were talking. We've shared on this before. Way back, probably even on the fifth thing, right before feeling things evolved. I saw someone online when they're peeling their garlic, and then they smash it with a knife, but then they take the little outer layer of the garlic off. And now I just call it a jacket. I know it has a name.

[A]

You want to say jacket so bad, because that's what.

[B]

Because that's the whimsy in me. Because now I just say, time to take your coat off. Or, like, if you're putting the dishes in the sink, time for a bath. Like, where's the whimsy? So the whimsy has helped me. And I. I had not thought of this until this exact moment of my son was pouring something out of the kettle, and he poured too quickly, and water went everywhere, which wouldn't be. It's not that big of a deal. It's water. I know. There is a time in my life. I don't know what it was. Call it my nervous system, just whatever. It was all amped up and that I would have been like, what are you doing? Or like, why did you do that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and he didn't mean to do it. And maybe this is me admitting, like, hello, I'm a bad parent. Need help. But I would have responded of like, oh, maybe you know, just like. And made him feel bad for doing something he didn't mean to do. But anyway, when it happened the other day, I was like, oh. I was like, here's a towel. And then I looked at the kettle, and I painted, and I go, bat kettle, you bad kettle. You a bad, bad. I was like, why did you do that? I didn't do it in Russian. I'm doing it Russian now. But I was like, bad kettle. Why did you do that? And then Stevenson was like, oh, I think I filled it up too much. That's why, probably. And then we moved on. And it was totally, like, a thing. But I could have made it.

[A]

You could have made it attack.

[B]

Because I know that there are moments where I was behaving that way in my life as a parent, as a partner, whatever, when it's like, they didn't mean to do it, but I would have made them feel a certain way for spilling water. And even myself. Like, maybe it was me that spilled the water. I would have been like, you're so stupid. Why'd you do that? It's not like I was just doing it to others. I was doing it to me. But I don't know. That was literally just the other day. And I never would have thought to share that story except for now. And I'm like, I think that's because over the last several months I've been practicing whimsy and being whimsical and not being so bringing levity things and serious silly. And so it's like, next time Patrick doesn't vacuum the stairs.

[A]

Spank them.

[B]

Bad boy. Or the vacuum dies. You spank them. Like, Patrick's going to be like, why are you spanking the vacuum? And you be like, you died, you bad. You need charge. Oh, does Dr. Gottman want to start using some of this? He can take it free of charge.

[A]

I was gonna say. Should we ask him to add this into.

[B]

Yeah, to add the whimsy into relationships. I think it's helpful and with criticism. If you have a critique, like, can you be not. Not the joking. Passive aggressive. But. But could playful work?

[A]

Playful? Yeah. There's a difference in using humor that's passive aggressive and using humor that's playful. Like when I'm like, guess you got out of your chores again.

[B]

Hahaha.

[A]

Like making a joke about it that way. That's me being so funny. But it's also me being like resentful and passive aggressive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Versus you. Saying that is bringing playfulness into the relationship and allow it almost like calms me down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Should I do that to my dentist?

[B]

Hey, bad boy. You've been very bad. How many people have you swindled out of thousands of dollars filling their teeth with like a false cavity fillings.

[A]

That's bringing me back to that. It's like they drilled into my teeth for no reason.

[B]

Okay, so back to the yeah, yeah, soft startup.

[A]

The things to remember. I'm just gonna go through them really quickly. Begin with something positive. Express some kind of appreciation or gratitude to kind of vroom, vroom them in. Use I instead of you and start with I instead of you. Especially don't stockpile and be assertive. So I think also you can be assertive without being aggressive assertive. Like if this is important to you.

[B]

Allow it to be important to you in the stockpiling. This is. Just throw this in. Because we've talked about on the podcast before, but whenever Ben and I took the kids to our four Day retreat at on site for our co parenting with them. And we did an intensive. Our therapist gave us the three A's and you can do it at the end of every day. And while we're doing it with the kids and we kind of got off of it, but we still bring about. I wouldn't say we're doing it daily anymore, but we still practice it as a family and it's been helpful and I could see how daily it could be really helpful. But such is life. It's busy, it's hard to get everybody gathered around, but you get to have one ask. So that way you're not asking for like 50 things and it's stockpiling, but you may have to make a list. And I don't. I'm asking your advice on this. Like, if you have things that you know are building up and you want to stockpile, like, can you have a list? We're like, okay, today I can bring this up and then maybe later I can bring this up. Or can you. How do you. If you have a stockpiled list? Like, how do you run through that? Because for the ask asks, she said to keep a list. Like, if, if do you have anything that you need? It's like you're asking like, if the kids need something instead of being like, I need this, this, and this, and it gets overwhelming and then that's not doable. It's like, can I ask you, Let me back it up, let me do me. Because this get confusing with what the kids ask for. Because they could be asking for things like I need new underwear or something. And she's saying, that's one of your at. Like on Tuesday, that's your ask. So on Wednesday you can ask for something else. But like, as a parent, I might go to my kids, say, you know, I'm really asking that you make your bed every day or we start to pick up your room. But it's easy as a parent to pile on and give your kids a long list of things and then it's overwhelming and then they can't get that down. So on Tuesday, I know I get to ask for, let's start this with your room. And then the next day I can ask a different thing. And we, we keep a list and keep track. So I guess what I'm asking here is, can we keep a list of things we have that are piled up? Because then how do you, how do you resolve those? So if you don't ever.

[A]

I would do that if I were you. And I'm Starting to feel overwhelmed by all of these things. Write them out. Because a lot of times what you find is that they will be a theme. So if it is just like household chores, then, like, I am going to ask for you to help me around the house or with your kids. I'm going to help my. Ask my kids to help pick up their things. And then they might say, actually, they might not say, but you might want to give them. This is actually how I would like that to be done. So being specific can be very helpful. So the big ask, it's the theme. This is the big ask. These are the ways that that actually plays out. But one thing that I've learned with Patrick is that he. And I'm this way too. On the reverse side. We're both forgetful. And so we have to. If I say, like, I need this from him, I know that he's going to need me to remind him or he needs to write it down and put a reminder in his phone. So it is helpful to, like, write that stuff down. I'm like, hey, on Tuesdays, I need you to do xyz. Put that on in your list in your phone of the things that I need. I think that's okay. There's a difference in, like, finally sitting down after weeks of building up resentment and saying, you suck at this. You never do this. And there's a difference in that, in me saying, hey, I've been feeling overwhelmed, and I'm realizing that I need help around the house or I need help with the kids, or I need to help get help on Wednesday nights. This is what that help looks like. And then those are the things that you list.

[B]

So it might be that there's an initial moment where you share something, but then also a more carved out time.

[A]

Yeah. And it's. The stockpiling is not about like, I asked them to do the dishes, take the trash out and mop the floors. That's not stockpiling. The stockpiling is you're lazy. You never do this. You're always late to this. It's different things versus. That's just one.

[B]

Okay, gotcha.

[A]

Does that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Help?

[B]

Yes. Thank you.

[A]

Okay, cool.

[B]

Over here. Taking notes.

[A]

Yeah. So that's the first horseman criticism. Very hard word to spell.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I agree.

[A]

We don't have to do these in specific, in a specific order. So is there one out of contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling that you really are itching to get at next to tease people for next week?

[B]

I mean, I think defensive makes sense. And then we go for the third one, we go the most evil.

[A]

Okay. So we're gonna do defensiveness next week. And then my personal least favorite is contempt. So we'll do that.

[B]

Which is the evil one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then stonewalling will be a good one to end on because stonewalling is interesting to me. I was having coffee with my brother in law this morning and he used that in a situation he has going on where he felt stonewalled.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And I was like, oh, it sucks. I hate that. Yeah, it does. It's so it's a good one to end on, to wrap with. So that's the order we'll go in. Hope y' all are enjoying this, hope it's helpful, and hope that you have.

[A]

The day you need to have.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

ISO pure protein helps you focus on more of what matters. Like feeling your best every day with great tasting nutrition. That's high protein and low carb. It's never been simpler. I use isopure unflavored protein every day and I have already restocked three times since first trying it. Actually, I think I've bought it four times now because my daughter took a bag of it to her dad's house. With 25 grams of ultra filtered protein, you can add it to things like guacamole, pasta sauce and more. It tastes great on everything. Enjoy more of what matters [e-mail] and get 20% off your order when you use code FEEL20 at checkout. When it's hot out and you are looking for something to hit the spot, Luigi's Real Italian ice totally saves the day. Luigi's is made with real fruit juice. No high fructose corn syrup, no dairy, no fat, just icy fruit goodness that's low in calories and high in. Give me some of that, please. Tons of flavors. Lemon, strawberry, mango, blue, raspberry, even red, white and blue swirl. No mess, no dripping. Just open and enjoy. Treat your real self with Luigi's. Find Luigi's Real Italian Ice at your favorite grocery store. Okay, let's be honest. If you're a parent, you know getting your kids to sit down and do math can feel, well, impossible. I've had those moments just staring at the homework, thinking, how did we get here? If that's you, then you need to check out Prodigy. It's an online math game that is actually fun. And I don't mean kind of fun. I mean kids are asking to play it. And the best part, they're learning the same math that they do in class. Prodigy is trusted by over 800,000 teachers, and it was voted the number one game based on learning tools by kids. So it's not just hype, it is something that's really working. Last year, more than 22 million students used Prodigy, and 91% of parents said their kids genuinely enjoyed it. That's huge. So if you're looking for a way to make math feel less stressful and more Joyful, head to prodigy.com you can sign up for a parent membership, and right now you'll get up to 50% off so that your kids can start learning for less than $5 a month. It's affordable, it's effective, and it's a way to bring a little more peace to your evenings. Again, that's prodigy.com check it out and see what a difference it can make.

[A]

This is an I Heart podcast.