AMY: Defensiveness (Part 2 of How Relationships Begin to End: The Four Horseman)

Summary

The Bobby Bones Show: "Amy: Defensiveness (Part 2 of How Relationships Begin to End: The Four Horseman)"

Date: September 28, 2025
Theme: Exploring "Defensiveness" as one of the Four Horsemen that predict relationship breakdown, according to Gottman Institute research.

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Overview

In this episode of "Feeling Things" with Amy and Kat—part of The Bobby Bones Show—the hosts dive into "defensiveness," the second of John Gottman’s "Four Horsemen" predictors of relationship trouble. They use personal anecdotes and relatable, real-life examples to unpack what defensiveness looks like, why it occurs, and how it can be addressed. The episode is candid, self-reflective, and filled with humor, as Amy, in particular, turns the discussion into a mini-therapy session about her own defensive habits.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Defensiveness

• Defensiveness Defined: According to the Gottmans, defensiveness is "self-protection in the form of righteous indignation or innocent victimhood to ward off a perceived attack." (15:04)
• Impact: The hosts reaffirm that everyone is occasionally defensive; it's the consistency and patterns that matter, not perfection.

“You are going to do these things every once in a while. It’s not about never doing this. It’s more so looking at the whole of things.” — Kat [07:21]

2. Recognizing Defensiveness in Yourself

• Amy’s Own Admission: Amy shares that her boyfriend frequently points out her defensiveness, and she admits, "I must say, he’s not wrong." [04:50]
• Examples from Life: She gives concrete examples, such as:
  • Getting defensive when offered water for her dog at the park, worried others thought she was a bad dog mom [05:12]
  • Explaining herself after an interaction involving her ex-husband, even if no judgment was actually present [05:40]

“I’m filtering things the wrong way to where I feel like I need to respond with some sort of defense.” — Amy [04:40]

3. Why We Get Defensive

• Internal Filters & Projections: Kat explains, “You’re assuming they’re thinking things that you maybe are thinking of yourself.” [06:27]
• Often, a defensive reaction comes not from another’s words, but from our own discomfort or insecurity.

4. What Defensiveness Sounds Like

Kat provides household examples to illustrate:

• Example 1:
  • Question: “Have you changed the air filters?”
  • Defensive Answer: “I was busy all day. Why don’t you do it yourself?”
  • Non-defensive Alternative: “Thanks for the reminder. I’ll do it ASAP.” [21:39–24:25]
• Example 2:
  • Work dinner vs. social calendar childcare conflict:
  • Defensive response focuses on justification and making oneself the victim instead of problem-solving.

5. The Domino Effect in Relationships

• Defensiveness often spirals: “We end up ignoring the needs or the thoughts or the feelings of our partner. And we just immediately turn it around on them.” — Kat [15:01]
• Rather than deepening connection, repeated defensiveness can leave both parties unheard and frustrated.

6. The Antidote: Taking Responsibility

• Practice Owning Your Part: The solution to defensiveness is to own your part in an issue without excuses.

“It’s usually like, oh, there’s something that I can own up here. And, like, I don’t have to take responsibility for all of it, but...Take responsibility for your part.” — Kat [25:32]

• Practical Responses: Examples include admitting you're running late or forgot something, without excessive justification.
• Progress, Not Perfection: The goal isn’t to never be defensive, but to spot the pattern and correct it.

7. Tips to Break the Pattern

• Pause and Assess: Before responding defensively, ask yourself: “What is going on for me right now?” [30:13]
• De-personalize: Remember, not everything is about you—sometimes people are just being kind or neutral.
• Clarification Exercise: Practice reflecting back what you heard. (“So, what I’m hearing you say is...”) [34:05]
• Use Code Words: Amy and Kat invent "DM" (Defensive Much?) as a playful code word to call out defensiveness, emphasizing kindness and humor when using it. [40:03]

“So then we just do a DM check in.” — Amy [40:26]

• Cool Down Strategy: Agree with loved ones on a word to signal a needed break (“pickle” in Amy’s co-parenting example) [33:32]
• Apologize and Move On: Sometimes, a simple "I'm sorry, let's fix it" is enough. No long explanations needed.

8. Vulnerability and Repair

• The hosts reiterate that vulnerability strengthens relationships and that being able to take feedback (as Amy strives to do) is a sign of growth.

“You’re really good at that—taking feedback.” — Kat [08:49]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Amy calls her boyfriend live to 'test' if his biggest complaint is her defensiveness.

  “Hey, what is it you say that I always do?”
  “You get defensive.” — Amy & boyfriend [04:22]

  • Both laugh—proving the point with humor and vulnerability.

• Amy on her worries about being seen as a bad dog owner

  “I was judging myself for it. So this person stopped and was like, ‘Hey, would you like some water for your dog?’ And I was like, ‘No, we’re good, we’re almost to the car’…And I instantly was like, oh my gosh, they’re judging me. And he’s like, ‘No, I think they were just offering you water.’” — Amy [05:12]

• Role Play & Humor
  Amy and Kat joke about reflecting statements back to strangers (“So what I’m hearing you say is…you just want me to pay for this right now?”) to lighten the mood around self-improvement work. [35:02–36:13]

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• [02:11] – Start of core content; intro of “defensiveness” as this week’s “Horseman”
• [04:08] – Amy calls her boyfriend to check if “defensive” is his #1 complaint
• [05:12] – Amy’s dog park and ex-husband stories, illustrating defensiveness in daily life
• [07:21] – Explanation that occasional defensiveness is normal; focus on patterns
• [13:38] – What defensiveness “feels” like, examples of victim mentality
• [15:04] – Gottman’s definition; “avoiding a perceived attack”
• [21:39] – Household chore examples of defensiveness
• [25:27] – The antidote for defensiveness: “take responsibility”
• [29:56] – Pattern-breaking, practical tips, importance of pausing and checking response
• [33:53] – Using “pickle” or new code words to move out of escalation
• [40:03] – Creation of “DM” (Defensive Much?) code word

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Notable Takeaways

• Awareness is the first step. Both hosts encourage listeners to spot defensiveness in themselves with compassion, not shame.
• It’s not about perfect communication, but about course-correcting, using humor, and willingness to own your side.
• Relationships (romantic or otherwise) benefit when both parties work to understand rather than defend or blame.

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Closing

Amy and Kat bring the conversation full-circle, connecting defensiveness to family dynamics, pop culture (brief diversion into "Scandal"), and the messy, universal quest to show up better in our closest relationships. They urge listeners to notice their own patterns and try out strategies like clarifying, apologizing, and having humor about their growth.

“So what I’m hearing you say is, you just want to give my dog water…” — Amy [50:50]

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For anyone wanting a relatable, actionable, and kind approach to tackling defensiveness in their relationships, this episode is a must-listen.

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Transcript

[Kat]

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[Amy]

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[Amy]

Happy Tuesday. Feeling Things. I'm Amy. And I'm Kat and this is week two of the Four Horsemen. Last week we did week one, Part one, however you want to put it, and we tackled criticism. One of the Horsemen, the next Horseman is defensiveness.

[Kat]

You said that with a lot of umph. Are you excited about this one?

[Amy]

Well, I think I'm more excited about it than I was last week because whenever we were talking about criticism last week and we decided that defensiveness was going to be week two, I then had this realization thanks to my boyfriend and he didn't even know this is what we were talking about. This just came up organically. He's like, you get so defensive all the time or you're always defensive and then that makes me think of criticism because he's using the all or nothing type words, and I'm like, oh, really? Am I always defensive?

[Kat]

Were you being defensive about something when he said that?

[Amy]

Well, he's not wrong. I don't know what it is. He thinks that I jumped, that I'm being judged, so I have to explain myself. And I don't know if it's defensive that would fall into this category. But I also don't want that to be me being defensive about it. Like, well, I get that we're doing this, but that's not me because I don't want to make an excuse. And maybe this is something that now I have awareness of and I need to work on, or it's like some insecurity, which I know that is an ego thing. So I'm excited to learn more and also use this as a very, very, very personal therapy session for myself. So thank you for leading it, Kat. And I was thinking it might be fun if I call him him and I say, what is it you say that I always do? I'll bet you $100 he says, get defensive.

[Kat]

Okay. Okay, do it.

[Amy]

Are we betting, like, for real?

[Kat]

I was gonna say, if he does say that, do I have to pay you $100?

[Amy]

No.

[Kat]

How about if he doesn't say it, you have to pay me a hundred dollars?

[Amy]

Exactly. No, I'm down for that. This is, like. This is.

[Kat]

You're really confident.

[Amy]

I'm pretty confident.

[Kat]

There's no winning for you in this.

[Amy]

Okay. I know. He's at the airport. Hold on. Let me see if he's gonna win, if he's gonna not win, answer if I'm gonna win. Hey, what is it you say that I always do?

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You get defensive.

[Amy]

Oh, bam. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Bye.

[Kat]

Wait, did you set that up? No.

[Amy]

I'm telling you, he. It's only because this, like, just came up. So, I mean, I. I led. I led the witness with you say, I always do this. Last night at 7pm it wasn't last night, but it was in between our last episode and this one.

[Kat]

Okay, so I'm gonna go ahead and say this. You probably don't always do it, but maybe it pops up a lot.

[Amy]

Well, he gave me some examples, and I must say, he's not wrong. And then he was like, there also is an example where he saw me do it to my ex husband. So it's not that I'm just doing it to him, not to my ex husband, but about my ex husband. I Guess so. We were at a cross country race and my ex husband was there and then Alex was there because we were watching our son race and an interaction happened and we walked away and I got defensive and he said, I don't think he meant it that way. And I was like, oh, you don't? He's like, no, I'm filtering things the wrong way to where I feel like I need to respond with some sort of defense. Let me ask you this. Another example he gave was at the park. We had taken the dog and it was a hot day and I didn't have water for the dog and I wanted to hurry up and get back to the car because I realized this was too warm, we shouldn't have done it, and I was judging myself for it. So this person stopped and was like, hey, would you like some water for your dog? And I was like, no, we're good. I mean, we're almost to the car, but then they keep walking. And I instantly was like, oh my gosh, like they were judging me. And he's like, no, I think they were just offering me water. And. And I was like, no, they're judging me as a person and a dog mom. And I don't know what I'm doing. And why would I bring a dog out on this hot day and not have water? But how do they know if I've had water or not? Because we did have water. I did give her some of my water, but then I ran out.

[Kat]

You know, it just in yourself in the middle.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

So it sounds like you. There's a projection there where like, you're assuming that they're thinking things that you maybe are think thinking of yourself. Sure, I'm trying to think. If you get like that with me, and I can't think of specific examples, but I do know that you don't like to be misunderstood.

[Amy]

Yeah, that is true. It might just be in my romantic relationships and with my dog or with myself.

[Kat]

There's a difference in being defensive in. I mean, I get with the dog thing. I get that. And like, yes, maybe there are some defensive there that you can check in with and what was going on with me. And we'll talk about that as we get into this. But what we're talking about is how it impacts communication and vulnerability and getting needs met in relationships.

[Amy]

Yeah, that's why when I read over some of your notes, I was like, I don't think this is me. But then I didn't know if that was me getting defensive because it is me.

[Kat]

Well, it might be I get defensive. So like, okay, I'm guilty of some of this. I should say this because last week when we started, we talked about how, like, these things are predictors of the demise of relationships. And these things help predict if relationships are able to be carried on in a healthy way, long term or not. You are going to do these things every once in a while. It's not about never doing this. It's not all or nothing. It's more so looking at the whole of things. So if the majority of the time progress, not perfection kind of thing, like, I can be consistently not defensive, but every now and then I might get defensive. And the helpful part of this is when I notice that popping up, I can clock it and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on with me right now? What's happening? What judgments am I making so then I can create a repair. I'm glad you're saying this because people that are listening might be like, I do that. My relationship is going to end. We're all going to do this.

[Amy]

Oh, yeah. I think I still have hope for my relationship. I think that it was just brought to my attention by my partner that I do this. Yeah.

[Kat]

What a healthy response to like, check in with that versus you being defensive and saying, no, I don't. You do it.

[Amy]

You know, yeah, that would be bad. I'm thankful that I was able to. Even when he pointed out what I was doing with my ex husband, I was like, huh, okay, you're really good at that.

[Kat]

I think, like taking feedback.

[Amy]

Oh, thanks.

[Kat]

You're welcome.

[Amy]

I hope to be. I'm sure I'm not always, but I really want to be. And I think that's also a sign of. Even though he did use the word always and he likely shouldn't because I know I'm not always defensive. He's a very stable person in my life. He met my sister's husband recently for the first time, and my niece, that's the second time she met him. And then our friend Chase, that was like the second time he had hung out with him and we were all together and my niece said to him, hey, what's your favorite thing about Amy? And then I said, she was like, okay, Amy, what's your favorite thing about him? And we boiled it down to that he's steadfast. Like, he's consistent and calm and my nervous system really needs that. And so now I am doing self reflection of like, because I don't have the chaos that I've had in previous relationships. Partly My fault for the chaos, too. But since there is no chaos, what part of me is still on edge that has to, like, defend? So, like, maybe that's my. Like we're an onion and we're peeling back the layers, and I've worked on all these other things, and maybe this is one of my lingering. My lingering layers. Yeah, yeah.

[Kat]

Lingering layers. Oh, okay.

[Amy]

LL Your.

[Kat]

LL. Well, before we get into it. We're already into it. Do you want to share your feeling of the day?

[Amy]

Sure. Don't judge me.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

I don't have to defend myself. I'm feeling sneaky. Can you tell?

[Kat]

Can you see? I can see.

[Amy]

You can.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Well, dang. I.

[Kat]

But you are sneaky to everybody watching.

[Amy]

Because I did such a good job that I even forgot. And then I was scratching my face earlier and I was like, oh, what's that? I forgot I have two pimple patches on.

[Kat]

Oh, where's the other one?

[Amy]

Oh, you thought I just had one? Yeah, right here.

[Kat]

I see.

[Amy]

See, I am sneaky.

[Kat]

You are sneaky. So thought on this. Did you mean to wear.

[Amy]

Did you wear them to work?

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Yes, but it's far enough away. I just forgot because I get ready so early. And then I also had up close conversations with people at work, and I was like, well, dang, I forgot. And they definitely.

[Kat]

But you meant to wear them to work.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

So did you know that specifically Gen Z, I think, wears, like, the pimple patches that are in, like, the shapes of hearts and stars and all that, like, as style?

[Amy]

Yes. My daughter does it. Yeah. She had a star on her face at work the other day, and it.

[Kat]

Just looks like they're wearing stickers on their face.

[Amy]

But it's pimple patch.

[Kat]

Yeah. So my reaction to that was like, I'm not gonna do that. But good for them for taking something that in my age, in high school, I would have been mortified that I had a pimple. So I definitely wouldn't want to put. I mean, it's like, what do you want to put a pimple patch on it so people can't see your pimple? Or they can see it, like, which is worse or which is better. I'm like, good for Gen Z for taking something that we're taught is you should feel insecure about and bad about. And they're like, I'm gonna make it into fashion.

[Amy]

Yeah, well, good for the. Whatever company invented the stars and the smiley faces because they're, like, making bank. Yeah, they're expensive, the pimple patches. Well, I haven't done the exact math on per patch price, the ppp, but it can't be good because I keep buying them and I'm like, do they work? Well, here's what my dermatologist said about them. He's a fan of them. And yes, they can work. Like, they do have medicine and things happening to help pull it out. But he's like, the main thing is it's going to keep you from picking at it and keep you from infecting it or irritating it. And then you have it for longer and then you're left with a scar on your face. Got it? So he's like, that's where I think they come in as like a total win. I'm not. I was gonna try to figure out the ppp, but if I do, I'm gonna stop buying them because I'm gonna be like, every time I pop one of these stickers on my face, it's however much mine's not the cute star. First of all, I'm not Gen Z, so I don't know as a 44 year old woman I can walk around with a cute little star on my face. But also I don't know that I should be walking around with the, the clear, obvious ones. Although today I put a little makeup on top of one of them. Obviously it stuck around and did a good job because you didn't notice it, but it just felt sneaky.

[Kat]

Well, good for you.

[Amy]

And confident because I'm not gonna let a couple pimples stop me.

[Kat]

Heck yeah.

[Amy]

Yeah. So those are my feelings of the day.

[Kat]

Okay, wait. Confident and sneaky. I like it. All right, well, are you ready to jump in?

[Amy]

Ready.

[Kat]

So we already obviously have told you guys we're doing defensiveness. The first horseman we did was criticism. And this again comes from the things that John Gottman discovered help us predict what is going to impact relationships in a negative way. So second one, defensiveness. When you think of defensiveness, not like the right definition, I just want you to tell me what you think of when you think of somebody being defensive.

[Amy]

Okay, well, just speak for myself here. But like when I know when I'm getting defensive, you're explaining an action, but it might not be in the healthiest way. Like for me, I'm instantly going into like, I need to protect mode or I'm a victim in this situation and I need to clarify like, well, this is why this happened, or like I'm being judged or attacked. Like, I thought the dog people were automatically judging me when all they did was offer me water but then suddenly, now I'm this horrible person.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

But I'm not. So I don't know. Was that victim mode?

[Kat]

Yeah, you. I think, obviously you've read some of my notes. You have some of these words in your brain. And also that probably is what you would have thought originally.

[Amy]

Oh, that's you trying to allude that I'm just using your notes.

[Kat]

Oh, no, you got it.

[Amy]

I mean, I know I already. I know I already read it, so I don't know how to do that.

[Kat]

Oh, my gosh. You hit the nail on the head.

[Amy]

Yeah, well, I don't know how else to answer it because I have already read the notes and then that was.

[Kat]

Kind of a trick question, but I.

[Amy]

Know that my behavior is victimy.

[Kat]

Okay. So good self awareness. So the Gottmans define this, but you're.

[Amy]

Gonna assume I just got it from your notes.

[Kat]

No, I. You're. Are you being defensive?

[Amy]

I'm. I'm doing role playing so that you know.

[Kat]

Okay, that's perfect.

[Amy]

Yeah. Okay.

[Kat]

So the God was defined defensiveness as self protection in the form of righteousness or proclaiming victimhood in an attempt to avoid a perceived death attack. Okay, so the important part here is to avoid a perceived attack. We become defensive when we are criticized a lot of times, and we talked about that last week of. It kind of sets you up to be defensive because it's an attack on your character. But a lot of times too, we become defensive when we just perceive somebody is criticizing us and maybe they're not. And that's where this really gets dicey because then we end up ignoring the needs or the thoughts or the feelings of our partner. And we just immediately turn it around on them and we don't end up hearing them, then they can become pretty frustrated because it's like. I mean, it's a. What's a domino effect? You say something to me, I just hear the negative part. So then I put it back on you. Then you feel not heard or listened to. And then they put it back on me and it just goes nowhere good fast. So the first thing to recognize is this might not be about what somebody is saying.

[Amy]

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[Kat]

So the first thing to recognize is this might not be about what somebody is saying. It might really be about how I'm feeling. You were talking about that with a dog. So you were already feeling bad about.

[Amy]

Having my dog out there and feeling like I'm a horrible person. Why did I think the temperature was okay enough? Like this is miserable for her and then for me because I'm feeling miserable for her and all I want to do is get back to the car. Yeah, like nobody noticing that I have my dog.

[Kat]

So you're not. You're reacting to the words of this person without listening to what they're saying. They're really just offering you Water. Right. But you're reacting to something going on in your brain.

[Amy]

Exactly.

[Kat]

And then the other thing that happens is you turn this around on people a lot of times where it becomes, it's not me, me. I could. There's nothing wrong with me, it's you. This person is being judgmental or, you didn't do this, and that's why you're trying to point the blame on me. And it becomes a blame game. Now, there are times, because I'm sure people will think, like, well, how do I know when it's okay to defend myself? There are times when it's like, makes sense. If somebody's accusing you of something, literally accusing you something of you did that you didn't do. You're allowed to stick up for yourself. But we're talking about when somebody is really just sharing something that's mostly about them, and then we're turning it around. Okay.

[Amy]

Yeah. And that's where we get to also remind ourselves that not everything is about us. I think.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Most of my defensiveness in my relationship is the. The dog example. It's the. I'm making it into something that it's not. You know, Like, I don't think I'm getting defensive back on him. Like, well, I wouldn't act this way if. If you didn't do this.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

You know, like, I don't think I have that behavior going on. As you explain more, I'll come up to it. If I do.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Have that behavior, I'll let you know. But I do want to dig deeper. Not here with y', all, but in my own work of figuring out why.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

It's almost like my. This is my go to. It's. My automatic response is like. And that's what he noticed. Even with my ex husband. My ex husband was just saying something to me, and we walked away, and I was like, oh, well, he's implying that I'm. And he's like, I don't.

[Kat]

Said that.

[Amy]

I don't.

[Kat]

But then he becomes the bad guy because he's implying this thing about you.

[Amy]

Anything that I'm getting mad. Mad at. But, yeah, it makes me wonder of how many times maybe I built these false narratives that aren't really true when really we'll keep using the dog thing as an example. Like, someone literally might just be offering me a cup of water.

[Kat]

And I'm like, because maybe their dog was really thirsty. They were thinking about the other dogs there.

[Amy]

Yeah. The cup of water could be anything you insert whatever situation it is for you. Like, Someone's literally just being kind of. And you're. It's a threat and it's not.

[Kat]

Yeah. So let's talk about more examples of what this really looks like. So. And you can insert any kind of household situation or plans, like something this. We're going to use kind of the same kind of examples.

[Amy]

But we love a good household chore example.

[Kat]

Yeah, we do. Especially a chore that, like, I don't want to do. But let's say that I needed my. Which we do. We need our air filters switched out. Right. And let's say my husband has agreed to, like, switch them out or something like that. And I say to him, hey, have you had a chance to switch those air filters out? I noticed last week that they were still. The old ones were still in there. Pretty normal request, right?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

And this is helpful for you to hear this because. Because this isn't about you. You're not going to have that. You're not going to be thinking about all of the extra noise. So you can kind of hear these examples more clearly. So what defensiveness would sound like was, if I said that to my husband, hey, have you had a chance to change the air filters? If he was getting defensive with me, he would say something like, I was really busy today. I didn't have time to do that. If you've had time to look at it, why don't you do it yourself?

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

Like, why haven't you done this?

[Amy]

Like, mean, defensive.

[Kat]

Well, it can be mean. Like, I've been really busy. I've been working all day. You've been doing xyz. If you had a chance to look at them, why don't you just change them yourself? Where he's one. I'm just checking in. Just checking in. But then he's flipping it back on. Like, you're the one that should have done it. If you've been thinking about it this much, you know, and then can be. Become even more, like, victim me. If somebody adds something like, I've been so exhausted from working so hard to support us. If you've had time to look at it, you see how that turns into, like, you're the victim. That is work. That is so tired and exhausted. And, like, I'm the one that's just, like, playing around looking at the air filters. Yeah. So when we do show up a defensive, what happens is our excuses end up sharing. I think I said this already, showing our partners that we're not really hearing them, we're not really listening to them. So rather than Hearing the request or hearing the thing that they're just showing up with. We're thinking about, how do I protect myself? Because this is all about ego. Which. This might help you. Like, if I have some kind of ego block or I have some insecurity, I'm going to be focusing on that. And this is a. This is a natural thing for us to do. So if I have an insecurity, I'm going to focus on it more than I probably want to. I'm going to be paying attention to it. That's the filter. We've talked about filters a lot. I'm filtering what somebody is saying, and it's going through my filter, and then I'm hearing it. So I'm not actually just hearing the words that somebody's saying. So another example would be if I said something like, hey, I noticed that you have a work dinner booked on Thursday. That's actually when I have my book club and we're going to need childcare. Pretty normal thing to say, right?

[Amy]

Right.

[Kat]

Somebody who is defensive could respond and say something like, I can't cancel a work meeting because you have a social event. I can't just be looking at your social calendar every time I have to do something for work. I'm trying to support our family, when.

[Amy]

Really all that's said is that we should get a babysitter.

[Kat]

Yes. Where if you're really hearing somebody, what you might say is like, oh, my gosh, thank you for catching that. That would have been a disaster if we waited till Thursday and then saw that. I can't cancel that meeting, and I don't want you to miss your book club. So let's see if we can find childcare. If not, we'll find another solution. No big deal. Right?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

So at its core, defensiveness is just a way for us to protect ourselves. But what John Gottman does with all of these Four Horsemen is he gives us a way to solve this problem in our relationship, to solve the issue with the communication, which we call the antidote. Do you know what the antidote is?

[Amy]

Not for this one. I didn't read that part.

[Kat]

Oh, okay.

[Amy]

So, yay. Can't spoil it.

[Kat]

So for this, the antidote would be to just take responsibility, which you're gonna, I think, be able to help describe this a lot, because it's the same idea of, like, cleaning up your side of the street. You know? Like, usually it's not one person did something wrong, and they're the sole responsible person for whatever issue there is in a relationship. It's usually like, oh, there's something that I can own up here. And, like, I don't have to take responsibility for all of it, but this is the most simple, simple, simple thing ever. Take responsibility for your part. So when you think about maybe the dog example, what would that look like?

[Amy]

Well, I mean, that's just where he pointed out, like, I don't think that's what that person meant. Like, I don't think he's like, I think you think that people are looking at you and judging you, and they're not. Nobody's even. They're walking by you and not thinking about you again. Whereas I'm like, oh, they're walking by me like, horrible dog mom. She sucks. What a loser.

[Kat]

Would it make sense if that happened again, for you to say, like, oh, my gosh, yes. I wish I would have brought a bottle of water, but that would be great.

[Amy]

Yeah. I think, looking back, if I was in a healthier place with it, I could say I already feel like I would need to clarify that I did have water earlier. We just already drank it. It's like a partial. Little defensive. Can I, like, give a smidge?

[Kat]

I think the. The important part of this is nobody's saying that you did any. Any. Like, nobody's out here being thinking those things. And so when people aren't thinking those negative things about you, it's easier to, like, own that. Like, dang, it's. That's hotter than I thought it was, which I would have brought 40 ounces instead of 24. Like, nobody's out here saying, like, she's so dumb, and she shouldn't be able to own a dog because she can't predict how much water she's gonna. Nobody's saying that. So if nobody is attacking my character, who I am, then it's so much easier to be like, oh, my gosh.

[Amy]

Yes. Like, thank you. We would love water. We're almost great. Yeah, I should have just accepted the water. That's my thing. Like, I should have accepted the water. We were close to the car. But the thing would be to do to set my feelings aside and give my precious dog the water. And, I mean, thankfully she was fine and everything was gonna be okay. I think I built it up more in my head that I was just this horrible dog person. And I guess it's the easiest example to. To give. I mean, I'm sure there's more, like, in my relationship, but I feel like this just is a. Like a plug and play. You could insert whatever your situation or Scenario is and how easily we make it all about us, or at least I do when it's not. And that was really my boyfriend's point was you do this often, and he wasn't. He said it in a loving way. He wasn't like, I know, I know. I said it, like, criticism, like, always. Like, you always do this. He wasn't being rude at all. He was just like, hey, like, are you aware that this is something that you do a lot? Yeah, but again, I don't think I'm the. The type that's, like, throwing it back in his face of like, well, I've been working all day. Maybe if you did a little something around here, you would remember or whatever. Well, you know, I had to bring the dot. Like, I wasn't. It's my own stuff.

[Kat]

Well, you defend yourself versus turn yourself. You don't.

[Amy]

I'm not turning it against him. Yeah, you do become.

[Kat]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy]

I get defensive at times where definitely defensiveness isn't necessary because nobody was.

[Kat]

Well, that's most of the time what's happening. Yeah.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

Unless you start out, because how we talked about, like, if you start with criticism, you're gonna dive right into defensiveness. It just sets you up for that. So, like, that's where it's like, usually you are responding to somebody saying something and attacking you.

[Amy]

So I need a new filter.

[Kat]

But this is. Yes. So you're assuming that somebody is criticizing you, but nobody's criticizing you. And so there's actually no need to defend yourself. But what is helpful, I think, because this is also a pattern, probably. So this is about pattern breaking. So every. Anybody who's listening, give yourself a break and give yourself some grace. Because for you to unwind this, you're going to kind of how we talked about my tongue thrust last week, Like, I have to pick something in my house to see, to remind myself to say, hey, where's your tongue sitting? So I can train my tongue to sit at the roof of my mouth instead of pushing out my teeth.

[Amy]

So maybe before I speak, when I know something's happening, before I'm about to respond, I can pause and be like, oh, what's happening with my response here?

[Kat]

So, yeah, I have a couple tips that will help you kind of give me the antidotes. Yeah. Well, so the antidote is take responsibility, but just to help.

[Amy]

Dang.

[Kat]

But to help you get there. Yeah, I have some tips and one question to ask, because I notice that I get defensive when I'm feeling overwhelmed or when I'm holding something in and then kind of ends up being this like big explosion is like this is not who I am. I don't hold myself and normally walk around feeling defensiveness or defensive throughout the world. So when I do start noticing that coming out, I can ask myself what is going on outside of all of this? What is going on? Because I'm feeling something about me and that's why this is coming out. So little tips you ready?

[Amy]

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[Amy]

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[Kat]

So little tips. Instead of looking at being right, prioritize understanding what your partner is saying. Simple. We say it's simple.

[Amy]

We say it's simple, but like, you know, tongue thrust.

[Kat]

Yeah. If you notice wanting to defend yourself, acknowledge that and take a break. So you talked about pickle.

[Amy]

Oh, yeah. Well, that's. Yeah, with my ex husband we have our code word pickle.

[Kat]

So I think that that's another one of the tips in here too is like have a cool down word. So if you notice yourself, like get revving up and like defending yourself, maybe you have another word instead of pickle that is like, oh, I need to like go take a little time out for myself because maybe the other person isn't going back and forth.

[Amy]

Yeah, just like, I need a break. And we'll circle back and then clarify.

[Kat]

What you hear the person saying. So how. I was talking about the filter. It's so helpful in any type of conflict.

[Amy]

I was picturing me to the water person. Because yes, in couples therapy we do this exercise a lot. You're like, so what I'm hearing you say is. And you repeat it back and then they get to say if what you repeated back was what they meant. And so I'm picturing myself to the stranger at the park, like, oh, you want some water for your dog? So what I'm hearing you say is you're just offering me water for my dog. There's no judgment attached to me being a horrible dog mom. And then they say, that is what I'm saying. Then I say, okay, I could take the water. So can we practice this with anybody we encounter? So what I'm hearing you say is you need me to pay for this right now? Yes, ma'. Am. I just need your credit card. So. Okay. So no, I'm just thinking of like any scenario where you might have to.

[Kat]

Be like, why would you be defensive when you're like checking out at times?

[Amy]

I'm just thinking if you're, I don't know, it depends on your filter, ma'. Am. That'll be $250 due right now. Right? You know, I don't know right now. That's what I'm hearing you say is you need to pay for this right now. I don't know. I'm just practicing saying it back.

[Kat]

You could do that with anybody or.

[Amy]

If you're at the mall and they're like, hey, do you want to, you know, try this new foundation? So what I'm hearing you say is, you literally just want me to try this foundation. It has nothing to do with my pimple, patches my complexion.

[Kat]

So maybe in some of those scenarios, you play that out in your head, your conversation with your boyfriend. Maybe that's when you share that out loud.

[Amy]

You're at a restaurant, and they're like, oh, we have really good salads. So what I'm hearing you say is, you really just have good salads, or you think, I need to eat a salad.

[Kat]

Yeah, I mean, you. You could do that if that would be helpful.

[Amy]

I'm just saying, like, this could get dicey. Yeah.

[Kat]

So I don't recommend you doing that. However, if you do have a feeling that, like, that come up. Maybe if you're at a restaurant and somebody says that and you're like, oh, my gosh, I feel like they're judging me. And, like, now I feel like I have to get a salad. Process that with a loved one or therapist.

[Amy]

Okay. Yeah. Because. Well, that's the filter.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

It's like, they're like, of course we're just telling you we have good salads. But if you perceive it as they're saying, you can't order anything else off the menu because clearly you need the salad, then. Yeah, that's. That's your information. That's your data. Okay. Okay, next.

[Kat]

So clarify with your partner.

[Amy]

Clarify with your partner or stranger what they mean.

[Kat]

And then the last two are just, again, own your behavior. It. I think that it's hard for us to comprehend that it's okay to just, like, own that I did something without having to give a justification. Sometimes in our brains, it's way more bigger than it is in somebody else's brain.

[Amy]

Like, so what does that look like? Just like, okay, like, you say, I. I did that.

[Kat]

Like, if somebody is. If you're. If you're going to. If you're going somewhere and you're running late and your partner's like, hey, we're gonna be late. Like, I really don't want to be late to this event. Can. Can we get the show on the road? And you start just listing off all of the things that you've done that day that have made you late this far, you can just say, like, oh, my gosh, I'm sorry. I didn't. I didn't manage my time well today. But, like, let's just go. I'll finish getting Ready in the car. You don't have to continue to, like, explain, explain, explain. So you're just like, you're right. We're behind. Let's go.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Because that person's not attacking your character. They don't need a justification. They're not really mad at you. They just want to go.

[Amy]

Yeah. I mean, like, you know, I have time blindness that.

[Kat]

You don't have to say that.

[Amy]

Nope.

[Kat]

Because that's saying, you know this about me. If that's a subtle shift of, like, this is your fault. You know this. Okay, so like, if. Yeah. If we're running late for something and somebody's like, hey, like, we're running late, and, like, we still have to get gas, so we gotta go. If I'm like, you know that I take longer than I say that I need. This is your fault. You should have done this. It's like, what, me? I've been ready 30 minutes ago, so.

[Amy]

That'S not the way to handle it. Okay. What if you just say, oh, yeah, I'm sorry. You know, this is important, too. My time blindness was just really on one today.

[Kat]

Yeah, you can say that. But sometimes. I'm just saying, sometimes it's okay to just say, like, my bad, and then move on.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

Because we're making a bigger deal than it probably really is.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

And then the last one is just like, it's okay to say sorry, ask for forgiveness, and move forward. Like, it is okay to mess up. It's okay to have done something wrong. We are going to do that in all relationships. We're going to disappoint people. We're going to make mistakes. We're going to forget things. And it's okay to say, like, oh, my gosh, I didn't put that in my calendar. I'm so sorry. What can we do to fix it?

[Amy]

Do you feel like with our working relationship, we do a good job? I guess. I'm curious if you notice me getting defensive with you.

[Kat]

Well, that's what I was trying to think earlier when you were saying, or.

[Amy]

Do I just do it with men and strangers?

[Kat]

I think that you like to explain yourself probably too much more than you need to. Because I. I think that I can. I'm, like, having memories of experiences of being like, I'm not mad at you, okay? Like, this isn't that big of a, like, deal. But you're just like. I just. I think that's why I said, like, you like to be understood. You hate being misunderstood, which. Same. So I get that. But maybe it could Be helpful for us to even check in around like. Okay. The story I'm making up in my head is that you're saying this so then we can get into a rhythm of not even having to.

[Amy]

Yeah, that would be helpful. And the reason why is because we obviously have a lot of interaction. Yeah. And if we, if I have practice with you, it might help me other places.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And you have permission. We're. This is like now an activity. So like you have permission to be.

[Kat]

Like, hey, what's a word we can say to each other when we notice each other?

[Amy]

Like sib. It's not sib, but different.

[Kat]

Like if I. If you notice me or I notice you. Getting defensive. What's a word we can say? So we can be like.

[Amy]

Oh, oh. We would be like dm. Defensive much?

[Kat]

Oh, that's good.

[Amy]

Question mark.

[Kat]

Dm.

[Amy]

Dm.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

Okay. Siv. If we're acting biatchi.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And then dm, but emphasis with a question mark.

[Kat]

Yeah, yeah. Defensive much?

[Amy]

Defensive much. Dm. Okay. So then we just do a dm check in.

[Kat]

Love it.

[Amy]

Not to be confused with dms. And.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Instagram check.

[Kat]

Not to be confused with check your dm. Right.

[Amy]

Just dm check in.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And then that way that, that would be helpful because I think the more like you said, if it's just become a pattern, it's more difficult to break.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And that's what's going on in my case. I honestly didn't know that's how I was responding. Enough to make my boyfriend of a year finally say to me, you do this a lot? Almost.

[Kat]

That's crazy.

[Amy]

Yeah. Let me ask you this. Do you count the first date you went on or the day you became boyfriend girlfriend?

[Kat]

We count the first date.

[Amy]

So yeah. Yeah. Everybody. Okay.

[Kat]

What do you count?

[Amy]

I didn't know. That's why I'm asking. I haven't been in a year long relationship since. I don't know, ever. I mean, I was married. No, I know I was. But we got married. So then all that changes.

[Kat]

That's crazy.

[Amy]

In college I had two boyfriends on and off for a couple years. But we were on and off. Like we would break up probably because I got defensive. And then we would get back together.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And then. Okay, we would. You know what I mean? So I don't know.

[Kat]

I think a lot of people count their first date, I mean, when they become boyfriend, girlfriend. But I'm like, we communicated and did things and we're like not dating other people during that time. So I want to Count it.

[Amy]

Yeah, I'll count it. So coming up, October 11th, it will be a year or something like that. And then. Oh, my gosh, that's the exact date.

[Kat]

And then something like that. I don't know. I haven't really been. Who knows?

[Amy]

I didn't look at the calendar. It was a Friday.

[Kat]

It's not like I've been counting down the days.

[Amy]

So it'll be a Saturday this year. He was wearing a blue shirt and I wore a pink dress, but something like that.

[Kat]

But, like, I barely remember it.

[Amy]

Yeah, I don't even remember what I ordered. Cornbread. Well, I mean, I ordered more than that, but. No, no, no. In pimento cheese. We ordered. It was a lot of, like, side plates. But I remember my sister messaging me like, she's like, you have to order this. Because she was looking at the cornbread, the tapas menu, and she was, like, telling me things that she really wanted me to order.

[Kat]

Wait, you know how when you went to Red Pony and they gave you the free stuff? So then I went to Red Pony and they gave us something free because it was our first time there, and I was telling my friend about it, and she was like, they gave us that same thing for free too. So.

[Amy]

But must be their thing.

[Kat]

I think it's their thing that they say that, like, oh, it's your first time in, like, we. The chef wanted to do this, but, like, honestly, good for them, because unless we were all sharing that, we would have never known. And it did make me feel really special.

[Amy]

Oh, we felt really special. And my niece was in town, and we walked past that restaurant and she was like, wait, is that where y' all went on vacation? On vacation? And she's like, I think I listened to that whole episode and I was like, the whole one? Why do you only sometimes listen half?

[Kat]

Yeah. What does she mean by that?

[Amy]

I don't know.

[Kat]

She's gonna get bored in that one. So I listen.

[Amy]

Yeah. Hey, if you keep a 20, 21, 22 year old's attention.

[Kat]

That's true.

[Amy]

For more than 30 minutes. I think we're 30 seconds. Yeah. Eight seconds.

[Kat]

I derailed you. Anyway, your year anniversary is coming up.

[Amy]

Yeah. Well, I just was curious what y' all thought, because, like, my marriage, we got engaged after three months and then married three months later. So we weren't even dating a year before we were married. And then we were married for 17 years. So I don't know. You know what I mean?

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

I don't know what happened. I don't know what People count. And not that it really matters, but it's just coming up. So we need to make a decision what we're gonna do to celebrate a year. And then I need to notify him. Hey, FYI, according to my girlfriends, we celebrate date one. Not. I think it was, like, November 2nd that he was like, let's be exclusive. Or he sent me a. To, like, check yes or no or something.

[Kat]

So it was like, three weeks.

[Amy]

I mean, I think he knew after the first date he wanted to say that, but I told him I was adult dating, so I was still dating other people.

[Kat]

Right.

[Amy]

But I didn't. I just was going to in case it popped up, but then I. That's exhausting to me. I knew I wasn't an adult dater. I was just gonna try. I just more talked on the phone to that other guy for a little bit still.

[Kat]

That was.

[Amy]

Exchanged voice memos, probably more so than talked on the phone, but.

[Kat]

Well, that's sweet.

[Amy]

Yeah. So I don't know if it's a universal rule, but if anybody else is in my shoes, you go. Go by the first date because it's more fun.

[Kat]

I would be curious at what other people think, because some people really do feel strongly about it. Oh, yeah.

[Amy]

And if we. I wonder if on that date, should we put on our same clothes and go to that same restaurant?

[Kat]

You're acting like this is your 15 year. Like you've been married for 50 years.

[Amy]

Well, what if every year on October 11th, we put on that outside, go eat at that same restaurant and order that same.

[Kat]

Remember what we did for our year anniversary, and. I have no idea.

[Amy]

Well, see, if we make it a tradition, then we'll know.

[Kat]

Yeah. Oh, I know.

[Amy]

And it's only lame until it's not. Like, the first year, it might be lame, and then later it might be like, when we're 80 and we're, like, walking into the restaurant like, they've been doing this every day.

[Kat]

That actually. Okay, I know.

[Amy]

It's lame until it's cute.

[Kat]

Yeah. Tradition. Now I'm remembering. We went to the same. We went to the same place. We went for our first date. We went because we just got drinks on our first date. We went to dinner there for our universary.

[Amy]

Oh, cute. Okay, well, so maybe we could wear whatever we want, to be honest, but we could go to that place and just get.

[Kat]

Honestly, I want you to be 75 and wearing the same pink dress.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

You can't ever get rid of that dress.

[Amy]

Okay, I won't. I can't. Guarantee it'll always fit, but I do have to already wear Spanx with it.

[Kat]

Well, okay, then we'll cut it up and make it into something else.

[Amy]

Yeah. Ooh. I saw someone that I follow on Instagram take their mom's wedding dress and cut it up into a two piece. And like, they altered it enough to where it looked similar, but they made it way more of the time, so it looked very 2025, even though it was from early 90s or something. And they wore it to their rehearsal dinner.

[Kat]

I wanted.

[Amy]

It was so bad.

[Kat]

I mean, she made a two piece with it.

[Amy]

She cut it up and made it like a top and a skirt. Like a long skirt with a white top. I mean, didn't show her stomach or anything, but she. And then she attached a picture of her mom wearing the wedding dress so you could see what it looked like then and you could tell it still had a lot of its character and that it was the exact dress, but she just made it more her style. And it probably didn't take much work. She took it to an alteration. I mean, she had to dream it up a little bit, but what a way to repurpose something special.

[Kat]

Do you have your mom's wedding dress?

[Amy]

No.

[Kat]

No. I wanted to do that with my mom's, but then I.

[Amy]

My mom got away.

[Kat]

Oh.

[Amy]

It was her second wedding, and she only got married because she was pregnant with my sister.

[Kat]

Okay. The dress, it could still be cool, I think.

[Amy]

Is that why she wore blue, though? She like, meh. I'm not that pure.

[Kat]

Something blue. Maybe that was her something blue.

[Amy]

Yeah. I don't know. That was the whole thing. I remember when I put that math together, and I was like, wait a second. Christy was born in October, and y' all were married in May.

[Kat]

Did you say that to her?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Was she like, what are you talking about?

[Amy]

Oh, we ended up learning the whole story. Like, it was not great. Like, my dad was married to somebody else. My mom was married to somebody else. Then they got my. They got pregnant, but they were gonna try to be together anyway. And then they got together.

[Kat]

I didn't know this.

[Amy]

Yeah. And then later, when my dad left my mom for somebody else, which. Classic story, right?

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Well, what do you expect? But harsh. No, I'm not. I'm just saying that's what society would say. And my mom, I think, even said, oh, well. But my mom hadn't done that to him. And then she. That's when we started going to church. And she really strengthened her relationship with the Lord. And she just felt on her heart like she really wanted to call her ex husband and ask for forgiveness. And so that's how I learned about it. And that was modeled to me of, like, this is part of my past, and I own it, and I did this. And look at your mom on the.

[Kat]

Side of the street.

[Amy]

Yeah. And so she called her first husband, and he was remarried and moved on. She was like, I have. There's nothing more to this phone call other than what I did to you wasn't right. And I wanted to ask for forgiveness. And so that was really good for her.

[Kat]

Cool. Good example for you to see.

[Amy]

Yeah. And now my mom and dad are not here to defend themselves.

[Kat]

They don't need to.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Because we're not saying anything bad about that.

[Amy]

We're not. If anything, it's like, for me, it's just like, oh, you know, their. Their lives are just as messy as a lot of our lives. And as kids growing up, you. You can't really imagine that. And then when you grow up and you learn the details of how it all happened, you're like, wait. What?

[Kat]

You weren't perfect.

[Amy]

What? And I'm re watching Scandal right now, and I'm like, you watch that at all?

[Kat]

Never seen it.

[Amy]

Okay, well, this is gonna be lost.

[Kat]

I did finish the Better Sister and one out of five stars.

[Amy]

What? I really liked that.

[Kat]

I did not like it.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

The end. I don't really understand. It was too much.

[Amy]

Yeah. It was a lot. And Scandal is starting to be a lot. Like, I. I am re watching it. Olivia Pope.

[Kat]

Yes. Okay. She's, like, the Secretary of State or something. No, no, no.

[Amy]

She's a.

[Kat]

She's having an affair with.

[Amy]

With the president.

[Kat]

She's a PR Person.

[Amy]

A fixer.

[Kat]

She's a fixer, and she's having that.

[Amy]

Fair. Yeah.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

I mean, but it's way messier than that. But it's almost like she is doing all these things.

[Kat]

We're recapping a show from, like, forever.

[Amy]

Ago, but it's back on Netflix, so a lot of people are rewatching it. My point in bringing her up and all this, though, is, like, she's really likable. Now we're getting into a season where I'm, like, not finding her as likable, but she's doing all this stuff, and you're sort of rooting for their relationship, and you're like, wait a second. I don't feel like I should be rooting for this. But then, you know how awful his. His marriages and his Situation. So then you're sort of rooting. It's like this love story. It's like, I don't know, Shonda Rhimes. It's just like this really confusing thing where you're like, wait, I don't feel like I'm supposed to be rooting for this, but I am.

[Kat]

Yeah. I mean, I kind of like those kinds of shows because it shows you that things aren't as black and white as.

[Amy]

Yeah. Well. And I think that also some of the stuff with my mom and dad taught me that of like, oh, it's not as. I don't under. I'm never going to understand someone's full picture. And it's easy to sit on the sidelines and, like, judge something.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Without. So what I'm hearing you say is, you just want to give my dog.

[Kat]

Water, and that's how we'll wrap it up.

[Amy]

Yeah. And what we are saying, and we hope you hear us clearly, is we.

[Kat]

Hope you have the day you need to have. Yeah, I was gonna say that's not how we do it. I hope you have. I couldn't think of the words after.

[Amy]

Are you saying I said it wrong? What I'm hearing you say is, did I mess it up?

[Kat]

No, no. Let me restart. I got confused because I forgot what I was supposed to say. It was about me. Let's try it again.

[Amy]

Good. Owning your side of the street. Dm. I know. It's just practicing our. I'm like, also reminding people of our acronyms. Dm.

[Kat]

Defensive much? Question.

[Amy]

Dm. We need the tone to be right because, like, siblings.

[Kat]

Dm.

[Amy]

Dm.

[Kat]

But you're doing it kind of.

[Amy]

Because it's like if you were to say defensive much.

[Kat]

No, but you want it to be kind.

[Amy]

Oh, yeah.

[Kat]

Kind dm, but playful.

[Amy]

Oh, dm. Carpe diem. Okay, gotta go. Getting delirious.

[Kat]

Bye.

[Amy]

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[Amy]

There's a.

[Kat]

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[Kat]

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