AMY: Slamming Doors, Blow Up Dolls & Men Crying

Summary

Podcast Summary: AMY: Slamming Doors, Blow Up Dolls & Men Crying
The Bobby Bones Show
Release Date: April 13, 2025

Hosted by Amy and Kat, this episode of "The Bobby Bones Show" delves deep into the complexities of human emotions, personal growth, and interpersonal relationships. Through candid conversations and personal anecdotes, Amy and Kat explore themes of acceptance, sadness, anger, and the importance of healthy emotional expression.

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1. Introduction to Acceptance and Personal Growth

[00:00] Amy: "If you've listened to the Four Things podcast for a while, you know how important acceptance is when it comes to personal growth."

Amy begins the episode by emphasizing the significance of acceptance in personal development, drawing parallels with how widely accepted Discover cards are, symbolizing broad acceptance.

2. Transition to "Feeling Things" Podcast

[02:08] Amy: "Happy Tuesday. Welcome to Feeling Things, formerly Four Things."

Kat and Amy introduce their podcast transition, highlighting their new YouTube channel with 18 subscribers and encouraging listeners to engage via Instagram and email for newsletters and updates.

3. Exploring Core Feelings: Lonely and Hurt

Last week's discussion focused on loneliness and hurt, laying the foundation for today's exploration of sadness and anger. Amy mentions a postponed discussion about fear and her relationship, signaling ongoing personal narratives.

4. Feeling of the Day: Energized

[05:24] Kat: "So we've called an audible and flipped the feelings that we're going to go over."

Amy shares her personal regimen, including sprinting and adding whey protein to her coffee, to manage her perimenopausal symptoms. She ties this into the day's feeling—energized—explaining its benefits and potential impairments if not harnessed properly.

Notable Quote: [10:12] Amy: "The gift of being energized, when you acknowledge it, it's a spark. It's your body and mind saying, let's go."

5. Understanding Sadness

Kat and Amy delve into sadness, discussing its role and societal perceptions, especially among men. They highlight the need for acknowledging sadness to prevent it from turning into restlessness or a victim mentality.

Notable Quote: [28:48] Amy: "I probably could have healed from it a lot faster if I just was like, oh, I really wanted that, that was hard to hear."

6. Personal Stories: Amy's Marriage and Emotional Suppression

Amy shares a poignant story about her ex-husband's struggle with identity post-Air Force, illustrating how lack of emotional space led to marital tension and eventual divorce. She reflects on her own shortcomings in providing emotional support.

Notable Quote: [37:37] Amy: "I straight up looked at him one day and I was like, man up. And that is what I said."

7. Framework for Healthy Communication

Kat introduces a communication framework:

1. Event: "When [event] happened..."
2. Feeling: "I felt [emotion]..."
3. Need: "What I need from you is [need]."

This method encourages responsibility and clarity in expressing emotions without judgment.

Notable Quote: [12:14] Amy: "I love this framework because this actually is, like, a script you can use for your relationship."

8. Combating Scams: Face Fitness Con Artist

Amy discusses a suspicious face fitness email she received, analyzing its characteristics to determine its legitimacy. She shares her approach to handling potential scams by signing up for free trials and setting reminders to cancel, demonstrating vigilance.

Notable Quote: [25:05] Kat: "Then I'm like, you're scamming the scammer."

9. Exploring Anger: An Empowering Emotion

Kat describes anger as an empowering "justice emotion" that helps activate passion and stand up for oneself and others. They discuss societal norms that discourage anger expression, especially in women, leading to unhealthy suppression.

Notable Quote: [46:29] Kat: "Anger is your friend. It's so helpful."

10. Personal Anecdotes: Dealing with Anger

Both hosts share personal stories illustrating their experiences with anger:

• Amy: Recalling her father's removal of her door when she slammed it during childhood.
• Kat: Describing her rebellious act of hanging a sheet over her door after it was removed.

These stories highlight learned behaviors in expressing anger and the long-term effects on relationships.

Notable Quote: [50:18] Amy: "I went from an ex con to a literary darling."

11. Metaphors for Emotional Suppression

Amy uses the metaphor of a blow-up doll losing air to illustrate how suppressing emotions can lead to losing one's sense of self. Kat adds the beach ball metaphor, explaining how bottled-up anger eventually bursts out uncontrollably.

Notable Quote: [55:55] Kat: "Taking a beach ball and putting it underwater. When it comes out, it's going to be in this crazy, exaggerated way."

12. Encouraging Healthy Emotional Expression

Kat emphasizes the importance of acknowledging and expressing anger healthily to lead a more meaningful life. They discuss the tendency to mask true feelings with sarcasm and the necessity of reflecting on one's emotions.

Notable Quote: [61:03] Amy: "Sometimes I don't know what that is, but then I'll have a behavior that's like, oh, where did that come from?"

13. Parenting and Emotional Validation

Amy shares a recent experience with her son, who expressed needing a moment during homework stress. She highlights the significance of allowing children to process their emotions independently.

Notable Quote: [62:48] Amy: "My son was a beautiful example of that."

14. Closing Thoughts and Future Directions

Amy and Kat wrap up the episode by reinforcing the importance of embracing all emotions, learning from past mistakes, and continuing to support each other's emotional journeys. They encourage listeners to engage with their content through YouTube, Instagram, and email.

Notable Quote: [65:00] Kat: "Inflated. A perfectly inflated blow up doll. Just the right, you know?"

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Conclusion:

This episode offers an insightful exploration of emotions, particularly focusing on sadness and anger. Through personal stories, practical frameworks, and vivid metaphors, Amy and Kat encourage listeners to embrace their feelings, communicate effectively, and foster healthier relationships. The candid dialogue serves as both a mirror and a guide for anyone navigating the intricate landscape of human emotions.

Transcript

[Amy]

If you've listened to the Four Things podcast for a while, you know how important acceptance is when it comes to personal growth. And you know who else is big on acceptance? Discover.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

You see, Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. That's a whole lot of places and a whole lot of acceptance, which is great for Discover, but even better for you. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Learn more at discover.com credit card introducing Instagram Teen Accounts. A new way to keep your teen.

[Kat]

Safer as they grow. Like making sure they always have their seatbelt on.

[Amy]

Alright, sweetie pie, buckle up. Good job.

[Kat]

Or ring the bell on their bike.

[Amy]

Okay, kid, give it a try. Nice. Or remember their elbow pads. Knees too. Okay.

[Kat]

Yep.

[Amy]

There you go. New Instagram teen accounts. Automatic protections for who can contact your teenager and the content they can see. Hey, everyone.

[Kat]

Matt here with Joel from How to Money. Joel, I know you like a good road trip. What's the last one that you've taken? Okay, well, this was a flight, not a drive, but my wife and I just got back from the iHeart Podcast Awards in Austin, Texas. That was a lot of fun. And I knew it was going to be a hectic trip, so I booked a comfortable Airbnb for us that was very walkable to downtown. It was perfect. Yeah. And nothing worse than, like, spending half your trip stuck in traffic when you're.

[Amy]

Trying to enjoy a new city.

[Kat]

Walking, even running around on foot like.

[Amy]

That is the way to do it, man.

[Kat]

Yeah. And you know what hit me while I was there, Matt? How brilliant it is to list your own place on Airbnb when you're traveling. Especially now that you can team up with a co host who handles everything for you. Find a co [e-mail] host.

[Amy]

If you ever have feelings and you just want some.

[Kat]

Maybe a cat got you covered like a num brother. Ladies and fellas, we just follow in the spirit where it tell us.

[Amy]

From the real stuff to the chill.

[Kat]

Stuff and the in between.

[Amy]

Sometimes the best thing you can do is just stop and feel things.

[Kat]

This is Feeling Things with Amy and Kat.

[Amy]

Happy Tuesday. Welcome to Feeling Things, formerly four Things. I'm Amy.

[Kat]

And I'm Kat.

[Amy]

And I got a Face Fitness Con artist update.

[Kat]

I can't wait. You were texting me about it and I freaked out. I was. Don't tell me, tell me for. On the podcast, I know you were.

[Amy]

Like, we can't be friends again until we record the podcast. Because this is obviously something I would tell you As a friend. But I get your idea of wanting it to be organic on the podcast, since that's what we talked about last week, and I feel like my scam score might change.

[Kat]

Well, to be honest, I was thinking about it, and I think I was being a little bit too kind.

[Amy]

Right.

[Kat]

Because I didn't want you to feel like you were getting scammed.

[Amy]

Yeah. So, okay, we'll get to it today. Last week, we talked about two core feelings, Lonely and hurt. So you can go listen to that episode if you want, or you can even watch it on YouTube.

[Kat]

Yeah. Which is so exciting.

[Amy]

Yeah. We have a YouTube channel. What did you say we have as of today? Well, the as of when we're recording this, we have 18 subscribers.

[Kat]

But we started with one Instagram.

[Amy]

Was it you?

[Kat]

I guess it was whoever created it.

[Amy]

Okay. So Elizabeth.

[Kat]

And then I made Patrick follow it, and then I follow it. And so then I was like, we have three.

[Amy]

Cool. Okay, I, I, I've started following it.

[Kat]

Really?

[Amy]

We have, like, six real subscribers. Well, those are real.

[Kat]

What?

[Amy]

We're real.

[Kat]

We're real. Yeah.

[Amy]

I haven't yet had my kids do it on. They're like, are we on YouTube, kids?

[Kat]

Is that a different thing?

[Amy]

Oh, okay. Cat cry is in here. We've got 19 and counting. So we just haven't had a YouTube channel for the podcast before. So this is very exciting. And you'll be able to watch us. And we're already episode two, upgrading our lighting and all the things because we realized it's a little dark in here. We've got some shadows, so we're making progress. You can also sign up for our newsletter, and I know that's something that we've gotten DMs and emails about. So do you want to clarify how to get the newsletter?

[Kat]

Yes, and bear with me, because we're working on another way for you to get it. So if you're on Instagram, you can go to our Instagram page, Healing Things Podcast, click the link tree, it'll just say newsletter sign up. Boom, done. If you don't have Instagram, we're going to post that link on our Facebook page that we will have soon.

[Amy]

Yes.

[Kat]

And if you just, like, can't wait, just email us and I'll send you the link directly.

[Amy]

Easy peasy. We've also posted it in our stories and we'll keep doing that. But again, if you're not on Instagram, never mind. You're not seeing the stories. But when you do sign up for the email, you do get a Treat or the newsletter. You do get a treat. It's not just like, hey, sign up. You're gonna get our feeling things. Wheel a whole chart, another little flow chart so you can better understand your feelings. I'm pretty obsessed with it, so shout out Kat for putting that together. Lonely and hurt. Those were our feelings last week, and today we're touching on sad and angry. Now, if you remember, we left a little teaser at the end of last week's episode because we were supposed to be talking about fear, and I was going to touch on my current relationship, my boyfriend, and some fear that I had around that. But that story is not just my story. So I am holding off for a second because I talked to him about it. And we're just gonna press pause. There's obviously we have kids, and there's just some things that I. Ready to share, but it's. We need a little bit of time, and I think it's important for the fear part. Very. Right.

[Kat]

So it's coming. Yes. I think that's. That story is a really good story to use for that. So I think waiting is the best.

[Amy]

Waiting is the best. So we've. We're. We've called an audible and flipped the feelings that we're going to go over. But before we get to sad and angry, we have our feeling of the day feeling of the day, which is energized. Now, I wanted my feeling of the day to be sore, and then cat's like, that's not a feeling. And I'm like, tell that to my hamstrings.

[Kat]

It was like a bodily sensation. It's a physical feeling.

[Amy]

I know, but I feel very emotionally sore.

[Kat]

You could be emotionally sore.

[Amy]

No, I'm sore from my sprints that I've been doing. I'm still doing my sprints. I told you about that, like, as a friend. But now on the podcast.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Just so that y'all know, we're obviously not trainers, and this isn't a workout podcast, so I can't tell you what to do, but I've just been listening to a lot of things with my perimenopausal body. I'm trying to learn how I can feel it better and move it better to help some of my hormones and my symptoms, because otherwise I'm going to punch a hole in the wall.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

Maybe.

[Kat]

Are you having some.

[Amy]

Oh, I was havinger. I was.

[Kat]

I mean, we're gonna talk about that.

[Amy]

I know, but I don't know that it's true anger. It's more like feels Ragey. But it's. I would call it more of a. Is it a sensation like a sore? Other than the actual. Because nobody's making me rage, my hormones are creating that, potentially creating that.

[Kat]

Now sprints, take that.

[Amy]

That's just part of my regimen.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

Like it's one. It's like we're going to look at it as like this is a recipe and how I'm eating and how I'm working out and how I'm resting and.

[Kat]

All plays a role.

[Amy]

All of that is going to play a role. So I've been sprinting for just 30.

[Kat]

Seconds, but how many are you doing? One 30 second sprint and then moving five.

[Amy]

Oh, that's it.

[Kat]

Do you like do 30 seconds, then rest for a minute, then 30 seconds. What do you do?

[Amy]

Yeah, you rest for a minute and a half. A minute and a half to two.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And I'm also taking this from a doctor that I heard. So I, that's why I'm hesitant to say exactly. Because I don't know, maybe it's not something you should go do. I don't even know really how my body is reacting to it yet again. I'm, I'm sore, but I do feel energized from it and I feel strong.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

I mean I had the treadmill at 10.0, which is fast.

[Kat]

Fast.

[Amy]

I know at First I did 9.0 and I was like, I think I can go to 10.0. That's probably pushing it, which is why I'm sore.

[Kat]

You also were a runner.

[Amy]

Was. 25 years ago.

[Kat]

You still were.

[Amy]

I don't like running. And that's the point. I think what I'm trying to do is push myself cardiovascularly or shock my system to where also my body's like, oh, hey, we want to build this up. Let's build some endurance, let's build strength. And then hopefully that helps. All the other things in my body when it starts to freak out from hormones, it's like, hey, we got this. We're not scared of a little shock to the system. We can handle this. You don't have to punch a hole in the wall. We've got you.

[Kat]

Well. And that's a more gentle shock to your system than a lot of things that I think people might think to do five sprints like you can five 30 second sprints.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

And it doesn't. Your sprint doesn't have to be 10.

[Amy]

No, it doesn't. I just probably over pushed myself. But that's one of the things that I'm Doing for. For my. Myself, including. Well, one more thing. I'll say. And part of that, which I think is the energy piece too, is I'm starting to have protein coffee, which isn't anything crazy. I'm just putting 2 tablespoons of whey protein in my coffee. I'm still having food around it, but I.

[Kat]

My face is.

[Amy]

Drink coffee plain.

[Kat]

Well, my face is like.

[Amy]

Is it unflavored? Yeah.

[Kat]

Okay. I'm thinking you're putting, like, chocolate protein powder.

[Amy]

Well, that would be yummy.

[Kat]

You think?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

It'd be thick, right?

[Amy]

No, you. You mix it up, it'd be real good. But this is just a way I'm lacking in protein.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And I've had multiple doctors tell me, especially being a woman in my 40s, that away protein is what I need. And I always avoided whey because I was trying to avoid dairy, but it's not the same thing. And also, I don't need to avoid dairy. It was just a trend at some point that I took part in. But I've.

[Kat]

You're growing.

[Amy]

I'm growing, and I don't need to do be scared of certain things, but now it's just like a. Oh, this is a little way for me to get some extra protein. But I do feel more energized from it, I think, because I'm getting more of what my body needs.

[Kat]

You're getting more energy, which is nutrients. Food is.

[Amy]

And I think you'd be proud of me because I also did my homework. Not that you assigned this to me, but I. I felt like when I was looking it up and researching it, I'm like, cow be proud. I chose our feeling of the day, which is energized. And I found the gift and the impairment.

[Kat]

Oh, so you gave yourself a homework assignment and you did it.

[Amy]

But I felt like it was from you.

[Kat]

Okay. Yeah. Subconsciously, I was like, you better find this. Yeah.

[Amy]

I was like, cat's gonna be proud because, you know, I just want to make you proud. Okay. So the gift of being energized, when you acknowledge it, it's a spark. It's your body and mind saying, let's go. When you lean into it, you build momentum. You take inspired action. You create, you move, you speak up and follow through most of the time. Right. It's often a window of motivation. So it's like feeling energized is the.

[Kat]

Door and take advantage of it.

[Amy]

And it's open, so you gotta go in, or you can stay on the other side, but then that. That'll lead you to the impairment, which I'll tell you about. And it's not good. When you ride that wave, you surprise yourself with what you're capable of. You'll go from a 9.0 to a 10.0.

[Kat]

Oh, my gosh.

[Amy]

Just like that. Now, if you suppress an energized window of opportunity, this is the impairment. If you don't honor that energy, it can turn inward into restlessness, agitation, or even anxiety. That buzzing feeling needs somewhere to go. And if you silence it for too long, you might start feeling stuck or numb, like you're dragging through life with the brakes on. Oh. So don't. Don't miss out. If you feel a window, go.

[Kat]

Yeah. Take advantage.

[Amy]

Go for it.

[Kat]

Yeah. So I don't know if you mentioned this when. I don't remember when we were talking about we were gonna do fear, because the first time we recorded we talked about this last week, we had to delete the episode and start over.

[Amy]

Kat shared that I had hurt her. That's not the way we're gonna put it. You felt hurt by me?

[Kat]

No.

[Amy]

Okay. Sorry. Because of something I was saying. You felt hurt.

[Kat]

Wait, let me give you a framework for this, because I think this can be helpful.

[Amy]

It's tricky.

[Kat]

When blank happened, I felt hurt. So when you said, this is not a therapy podcast, I felt hurt. So here's the event, and then I'm taking responsibility for the feeling.

[Amy]

I love this framework because this actually is, like, a script you can use for your relationship. And I obviously know the script, but I have a hard time even acting it out because it can be a game changer in your. Your marriage, your. Your partnership, a friendship, your relationship with your kids. Because, oh, my gosh, as parents, if we could teach our kids to communicate.

[Kat]

This way, and they would just grow up knowing that. Yeah.

[Amy]

Yeah, they would enter into all these healthy relationships in their. In their twenties.

[Kat]

Do you know the script? Do you want me to say it out?

[Amy]

Okay, I want you to give the thing again, because you said so. Just gave it the frame. I love. I love therapy words. I love that this is a therapy podcast. I love it. I love it because the framework is so good, and that way people can, like, have the script. So it's like, obviously, I need you to do it, because I even struggle with it. But, you know, with me with scripts, because I had scripts with some stuff going on with my kids, like, their therapists would give me scripts, and I would always be so scared I was going to mess it up. Like, sometimes I would be in the middle of a whole thing with them, and I. My son in particular, and I'd be like, one second, I will be right back. And I would go to my bedroom, and I would look up at the email and look at the script the therapist gave me, and I'd write it down. I put it in my back pocket because in the moment, I didn't want to mess it up, because it's like the. The slight alteration of how you say it changes everything.

[Kat]

Yeah. And I. With any of this stuff, the more you use it, the easier it will be. So where you don't have to, like, read something.

[Amy]

I've used these a lot, and I still forget them.

[Kat]

So. So this one. And there's probably a lot of versions of this that are basically the same. When you. Blank or when blank happened. Blank is the event. When blank. I felt blank. What it brought up for me is blank. Or you can say the judgment I had was blank. And then if you want to take it a step farther, you can say, what I need from you is blank. And then if you're really trying to have some intentional dialogue, you might have. That person might say at the end, can you tell me what you heard me say? So then they'll repeat it, and if they got it wrong, then I can be like, okay, let me try again, until you actually hear what I'm saying. So a lot of times we're listening, and we're hearing judgments, too, so we're not actually hearing the actual words. So when you said this was not a therapy podcast, I felt hurt. The story I made up was that you thought I was stupid or didn't want me to talk too much or.

[Amy]

The judgment I didn't value you.

[Kat]

Yes. Yeah. And then what I need from you is a conversation about kind of the rules we have on this podcast, and.

[Amy]

I need you to change it to a therapy one. I'm just kidding.

[Kat]

You didn't say that.

[Amy]

But I did. I woke up with that epiphany of, like, it is. Okay. Kat is a therapist, and we are rolling with this niche, and our niche is feelings, and feelings are.

[Kat]

And now look how energized you are about it being a therapy podcast.

[Amy]

Here we are. Okay, so we had to delete the first episode because I was saying over and over, this is not a therapy podcast. We had to delete it. I guess where you were. Where you were going with this is that we also had to delete the second episode, but not because of something anybody said or did that hurt anybody or made anybody Actually, a really good, uncomfortable. It was really good. It was really good. And I honestly thought we could salvage it. But the yard people came. So I do have a company that comes to mow my front and backyard. And we're kind of at a side of the house where you can hear things. Front yard, backyard, and side yard. So there was a lot of mowing happening. And we were recording on a day that we don't normally record, because I had asked them, please do not come on this day. Cause this is our recording day. Well, we had to record on a different day, and I forgot to tell them. So then all of a sudden, it's like. And cats. Not really hearing it. I hear it the whole time. I'm thinking. But you weren't bothered by it, or you were like, oh, it's fine. This is not a thing. Or maybe it won't pick up, because that's what happens at your office every day.

[Kat]

So 1. I was like, this is really good. I don't want to ruin this. And I thought maybe since you weren't saying anything, it won't pick up. But also, I am so used to a weed whacker being outside of the door of my office, because my office is the front of the house that our office is in. Like, my actual offices. And they'll come, and I'll be just sitting there with the client, and I'll be. Can you say it a little louder? And I'll be screaming. And I'm like, this is the most untherapeutic room there is. However, I've tried to reframe it as it's good exposure therapy in some way. I don't like it, but I'm like, oh, I can roll with this. Like, who cares? I can, like, stay in tune with you. But I thought you thought that too, because you didn't say anything.

[Amy]

Yeah, no. I was thinking the whole time this episode is going in the trash, but maybe not. Maybe not, maybe not. And then afterwards, I was like, yeah, it's. People would be like, what? I can't. There's like, can you say it a little loud? There's a huge lawnmower. And I'm picturing, like, being. When a cat's clients and being like, if I. If I was doing brain spotting with you or something and there was a lawnmower, I'd be like, can I get a discount?

[Kat]

Literally? And I would say, yes, I'm sorry. I have. Actually, good for you for asking the lawn people to come at a appropriate time or a time that would Work. Because I have asked so many times for our property manager to let me know when they're coming and they're like, sure, sure, of course. Yes, that makes sense. Guess how many times they have actually done that?

[Amy]

Zero.

[Kat]

Zero times.

[Amy]

Yeah. So there's no follow through. That's unfortunate. So that's our. That's our episode two got deleted as well story. So we're on a roll here. I hope from here on out, everything we record is usable because we're treating the show like it's live. We're doing it live.

[Kat]

We're doing it live. Which is why I just rolled with it.

[Amy]

I know. And I didn't want to. Like, we did have momentum and we were telling good stories, which actually now don't you think about it. Isn't it so glad the yard people coming? This just hit me because we talked about the boyfriend stuff. Oh, my gosh. After I talk to him, I need to wait.

[Kat]

Also, I have to point out you. Did you notice what you just said?

[Amy]

Boyfriend? What? What is it you said?

[Kat]

Isn't it so glad?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

And we talked last week. We talked last week on the episode that we can't use about glad and you talked about. I'm going to use that word more.

[Amy]

Yeah, well, now I already use it. I use it a lot. But we're not talking about glad today because glad is with fear, and that will be when the boyfriend conversation happens.

[Kat]

That is crazy.

[Amy]

It worked out.

[Kat]

But okay, so there's that. I want to hear about what you're going to text me about the con artist.

[Amy]

Introducing Instagram teen accounts. A new way to keep your teen.

[Kat]

Safer as they grow.

[Amy]

Like making sure they always have their seatbelt on. All right, buckle up. Good job. New Instagram teen accounts.

[Kat]

Automatic protections for who can contact your.

[Amy]

Teen and the content they can see.

[Kat]

There's a type of soil in Mississippi called Yazoo clay. It's thick, burnt orange, and it's got a reputation. It's terrible, terrible dirt. Yazoo clay eats everything. So things that get buried there tend to stay buried until they're not. In 2012, construction crews at Mississippi's biggest hospital made a shocking discovery.

[Amy]

7,000 bodies out there or more, all.

[Kat]

Former patients of the old state asylum. And nobody knew they were there. It was my family's mystery. But in this corner of the south, it's not just the soil that keeps secrets. Nobody talks about it.

[Amy]

Nobody has any information.

[Kat]

When you peel back the layers of Mississippi's Yazoo clay, nothing's ever as simple as you think.

[Amy]

The story is much more complicated and nuanced than that.

[Kat]

I'm Larison Campbell. Listen to under yazukle on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Amy]

Hi friends, Sophia Bush here, host of work in progress. This week we had such a special on the podcast My Forever flotus. A mentor, a friend, a wife, a mother, an author, attorney, advocate, television producer. And now she adds podcast host to the list herself. Friends, Michelle Obama is here.

[Kat]

Sophia, I'm beyond thrilled to be able to sit down and chat with you.

[Amy]

We talk about it all. Life, love, motherhood, Martinis, Vodka martini, dry.

[Kat]

Straight up olives, very cold. My girl, barely any vermouth.

[Amy]

What's next? What she's watching on tv.

[Kat]

I am a White Lotuser. I am a Real Housewives person. I love the dating shows and tennis. I just find that to be a bit meditative.

[Amy]

You do not want to miss this. Listen to work in Progress on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. So last week Kat gave me a little face fitness checklist. I had to answer yes or no to some questions that she had. And ultimately you determined that it wasn't a scam or whatever. Well, then this is the email that I got between now and then, which also this didn't make it into the the trashed second episode.

[Kat]

So this is meant to happen.

[Amy]

Meant to be. So though this is a perfect example of like when things go wrong, eventually you'll be like, oh, what does this make possible? Because it makes possible that now we get to update this closer to the face fitness scam situation. And I get an email and the subject is deadline. Your gift expires tonight. All caps. And then she said, hey, Amy, this is the closest thing there is to working one on one with me. There's going to be a problem area class every month if you sign up for this once in a lifetime opportunity to be a. A monthly.

[Kat]

It says once in a lifetime.

[Amy]

Once in a. Once in a lifetime opportunity for like I have to be a monthly subscriber. She said this is invaluable. This really takes your biggest insecurities and eliminates them one at a time. When you join today, you'll get a 53 minute advanced facelifting routine. In your members area, you'll also find a 14 minute miracle routine. It's actually a busy day routine, but members started calling it a miracle routine. So that stuck. There's another one called the Holy Grail routine. I mean, you can tell I've already sold Where I'm like the Holy Grail. Like, you had me at miracle. I'm like, where do the 53 minute one I'm not interested in again? Because time. Yeah, some of this stuff is so crazy, time wise.

[Kat]

But this is part of her gift.

[Amy]

That she's in bold. The women in the group have been going crazy about it. Then this is where I was like, oh, Cat with her scam questions. Because this I would have to admit to. She says, the first month is on me. Here she is with like the gift. She goes, that's right. I'm giving you a free month as a gift. And then she attached the link. So it's a 30 day free trial with another special link, it'll be $99 a month. But today, $0 for the first month. And then after the free trial, you can pay until you choose to cancel. So here's what I did. Do you want to know?

[Kat]

I was gonna say, did you? What? Did you sign up? I signed up because you think you're gonna cancel it.

[Amy]

I. And I sent myself an email. Don't forget you signed up for this. Make sure to cancel it within 30 days from now. So I'm gonna. I'm not gonna pay for this, but you bet. I got the Holy Grail routine and I got the miracle and I. So I have everything. I haven't done it yet, but once I do it, I will let you know if it's worth it and then if I become a monthly member. But I've emailed myself a reminder to cancel.

[Kat]

Okay, can you also email me that reminder?

[Amy]

Cause you wanna check in.

[Kat]

But I mean, wait a second.

[Amy]

See, this is where I'm like, I get that you probably think all of these keyw very scammy. And they are. I know this now because.

[Kat]

But you're aware.

[Amy]

I'm aware.

[Kat]

So can you get scammed if you're aware?

[Amy]

That is an interesting question. Are you just.

[Kat]

Choosing to be scammed?

[Amy]

Right. I'm. I am choosing to give $0 for 30 days to test this stuff out. And then I will let y'all know. And you know what?

[Kat]

Then I'm like, you're scamming the scammer.

[Amy]

I'm scamming the scammer because I'm going to take this routine and I'm gonna put my own spin on it. And then I'm just gonna show y'all how to do it for free on Instagram. Except for, I don't know, everything that she knows. I know. I'm just kidding. I'm not gonna do that. I do appreciate her work and she's clearly put a lot of time into this. But also, is what she's saying legit or. So you're like, cool, I gotta go film a 53 minute video of basically nothing. I'm just massaging certain parts, acting like I know what I'm talking about. And I'm charging an arm and a leg for it. Like, is that what she's doing if she's a scammer?

[Kat]

There are so many people that do that though.

[Amy]

But I don't understand that. So why would they do that?

[Kat]

Because there are people like you that, like, I'll sign up. But that's so funny because that email goes like. I was laughing as you started reading it. Because it starts already. Like, I'm thinking about the checklist and it's like, boom, boom, boom, boom. Invaluable act. Now. Nothing else is as good as this for me. Yes.

[Amy]

This is the closest thing you'll get to one on one. And again, I am everything.

[Kat]

And again, we don't even know her credentials.

[Amy]

No. I don't even know where she is. And the world.

[Kat]

We don't know if she's a robot.

[Amy]

Right. So she does have great skin. Like, people accuse her of having Botox.

[Kat]

See her on a video though. Her having good skin. Come on.

[Amy]

Okay, I will say, people, if you.

[Kat]

Think our skin is good, it's because you're actually seeing real skin. We didn't edit it, but you could do that.

[Amy]

Okay. Because I guess with certain lighting, yes, she can look better, but she doesn't. She'll. What I'm saying is people accuse her of Botox, but then she'll get close up in the camera and she'll show her forehead moving. So she says, I don't have Botox. Okay, whatever. Moving on. I'm done. What are our feelings? We're gonna start with sad. Like I.

[Kat]

You're like, I'm starting to feel sad now.

[Amy]

This gives you our feeling of the day.

[Kat]

Well, I. The last thing I'll say.

[Amy]

No, no. Our feeling of the day was energized. These are our core feelings.

[Kat]

If this thing brings you joy and you are aware of it, I don't care if you do it. It's now just kind of silly and funny. But if she does end up scamming you and you lose thousands of dollars, you might end up. You might forget to cancel the subscription.

[Amy]

No, I emailed myself and I always remember to check my emails.

[Kat]

Duh.

[Amy]

Like I, I don't forget to do anything like that. What are you talking about? I probably have, like, I probably have thousands of emails to myself and thousands of screenshots of things that I will remember it, quote, unquote, to go do. And I don't. All right, so that's.

[Kat]

Yeah. So sad. Sad. Let's talk about sad. Because it would be sad if you missed that email reminder.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Okay. So when we went through these last time, we talked about how they all have a core need, which can also be expanded to what we're saying. And then if you feel sadness, you're going to end up getting a gift in that even though it doesn't feel good in the moment. And if you repress or ignore sadness, there's an impairment that's with every feeling. So we're going to talk about those. Are you ready?

[Amy]

I'm ready.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

I've been sad a lot.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

In life.

[Kat]

Yeah. Okay. Well, we all have. And. And I'm glad you said that, because a lot of people want to, you know, send a message, whether it's to themselves or the world, that I don't get sad or I don't get down or I don't feel that feeling. And that's not really, when you get into this stuff, a flex. Because if you aren't feeling sadness, you're not getting one of these gifts. That's imperative to live, I think, a full life. So the need, the core need, would be to grieve something or to be comforted, to be seen, to be soothed. Something like any.

[Amy]

And supported.

[Kat]

Yeah, anything like that. Which support. To acknowledge our need for support and comfort is also acknowledging our need for other people.

[Amy]

So. Which you said something in last week's couch talks that feels in alignment that even though we were talking about sharing or oversharing on a first date, but you started off, and I think you even made this a social clip. So that's probably why it's in my mind, is because I watched it over and over and over, just shout out feeling things. Podcast on Instagram. But I did watch the clip. I think probably I was posting it my stories, and, you know, it plays while you're typing, and I just kept hearing your voice over and over. But you said, I'm a big fan of allowing people to know how to be there for you or to know how to show up and support you. And so sharing things is important to an extent. I mean, maybe not on a first date. You don't have to let everybody in, but sometimes as friends, we don't want to Burden people or share too much. It's like, oh, they have a lot going on but then you rob them of the opportunity of being there for you.

[Kat]

Yeah. And you don't get as in the other person. Or I could say this for myself, like I don't get to decide what's a burden for other people. So I don't get to decide what's a burden for my friends. You get to decide that. But if I never share stuff with you, then I'm assuming that it is when it might not even be a burden. It would be a gift to you as a friend.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

So that would be kind of around what the need would be. Now if you don't feel sad and you push it away and you're unaware of it, what's going to happen is you're going to look over time you're going to have this like self pity. Whether you share that with people or not, you're going to, that's going to be there. And you end up showing up in this more victimy mindset where things are being done to you and you have no control at all. And we don't have control of everything. But there are things that we do have power over and we don't really, we don't want to get there. If you are aware of your sadness while that and I stress while feeling the sadness probably is not going to be a fun experience or a comfortable experience, what it helps you have and what helps you breed is gratitude. Because sadness is saying I lost something that was really important to me. And so we get to acknowledge what was really important to us versus it's not. I'm not sad. It's fine, whatever. I didn't care. Wait a second. What is important to you deserves to be acknowledged. That's okay. So that shows up in a lot of ways I think when we get rejected, there's some things that I think are easier to be be sad about being rejected. But there's others, depending on who you are, where you're like, your pride takes over and you're like, oh no big deal. And a lot of times like jobs or if you put yourself up for something like a promotion or even an award or something like that, you put yourself out there and starting a podcast, like if we didn't, if nobody listened to it, I would feel sad because this was important to us and it was something that we put a lot of time in and a lot of people don't want to say I was let down.

[Amy]

Sad and yeah set by that. I Got passed over for something and you're talking about like a work related thing. And I immediately took on the, oh, well, it wasn't really that big of a deal, but I know that I was stuffing it down and I think I probably could have healed from it a lot faster if I just was like, oh, I really wanted that, that, that was hard to hear. And like, I'm going to be okay. And I want to give myself space before I jump in with the well, what does this now make possible? Yeah, my daughter told me I asked that question too quickly. Yeah, Adeline too, my niece. They, they both two younger people. They're like, because I want to immediately come in. I think as parents or aunts or friends, we may want to come in and try to fix something. If someone is feeling sad. Not fix it, but just help them feel better. And what does this make possible? Is a great question you get to ask yourself. But don't ask it too quickly. Maybe.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Because then you're not allowing to sit in the sadness.

[Kat]

Well, if you remember when Shout Out Donald Miller, when we had that interview a couple years ago with him, the reason he gave us those questions is we asked him, he was talking about his book, Hero on a Mission. Great book, great book.

[Amy]

And it was speaking of victims.

[Kat]

Well, yeah. So it's all about how to be the hero in your own story. And we were asking him, well, when something happens in your life that like you are really down about, what do you do to not stay in that moment? And those are the questions he gave us. And so this is perfect. Those questions are perfect to bring into your sadness. But we have to acknowledge that there's sadness there. And then we get to ask the question.

[Amy]

Right.

[Kat]

Versus then just ask the question. Then we're missing part of that.

[Amy]

Yes.

[Kat]

And what does this make possible?

[Amy]

I'm glad you clarified that. But I think as a, as a mom, so I'm sharing this to other parents. We may swoop in right away as our teen is processing and we're like, okay, well what does this now make possible? And then they just look at you like, okay, cool, I love you and your fancy questions that are supposed to help me, but like, let me just be. And so that's just my encouragement on that.

[Kat]

Would part of that for you be. It's hard for you to see your kids when they're.

[Amy]

Yeah. Want her to be sad. But this is a good reminder that sadness is good. Like we want sadness.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Because then if we experience the sadness, we can experience gratitude. And I Have no idea if the doorbell that just rang is popping up on the podcast here, but we have been putting a note on my front door that says, do not ring the doorbell or knock because we're recording. I don't think we put recording because that's. That's sounds weird, but I think we just say we should put baby sleeping.

[Kat]

I do have a sign on my door in my office that says do not knock on this door, But I guess I should say do not use your. What is it called? A wind blower.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

A weed whacker. But it's not a weed whacker because it's on the. It's blowing leaves.

[Amy]

A leaf blower. Yeah. Don't use that. You're gonna be like, be kind. Blow leaves elsewhere. So who knows if that even.

[Kat]

Shut up.

[Amy]

But this is an example. If we're rolling with it. Things happen.

[Kat]

We're breezy.

[Amy]

We're breezy. It's not gonna make me sad.

[Kat]

No.

[Amy]

Or mad or angry.

[Kat]

No.

[Amy]

Or any other emotions. I actually feel fine.

[Kat]

I feel fine, so. Well, that's not one.

[Amy]

No, actually. No. Really?

[Kat]

I feel. I feel joy and excitement because I'm like, did you get a package? I wonder what it is.

[Amy]

Oh, I love the way you reframed that. Thank you for that. Because I was kind of feeling mad at myself for not putting up the sign.

[Kat]

Oh, well, that's perfect, because we're about to talk about anger. Okay. Are you ready to. Do you want to talk about sadness more? Are you ready?

[Amy]

No, I think I want to talk about how being sadness, you maybe touched on this, but it's not weakness. And I know we have men that are listening, and I think sometimes they have to be, you know, the man of the house or hold it together for maybe the women in their life, and that's part of maybe how they were brought up. I think we're phasing out of that. I was just. I'm making a generalization. But I think in a lot of my marriage for 17 years, I don't. It'd be him for him to talk about. But my experience with him is that he didn't have a lot of room for sadness because he needed to be more to get. Like, he's suppressed a lot of sadness. Yes. Like, it could be seen as weak.

[Kat]

To be sad when this is a whole other topic that I think would. There'd be so much good conversation in. But historically, men aren't. Couldn't be weak because they were protectors, and they still can be protectors. But we don't have the same threats now that maybe we did when we were hunters and gatherers. And so we've gotten used to playing these roles and now men have worked really hard to push that away. And I have learned that part of helping, part of wanting men to have that space is us allowing it and encouraging it. They're not going to do it automatically, but I've noticed some things that have, that I've thought about men in general or that I've said to my husband or people that I'm dating and it sends them the message of like there isn't still room for that. So we have to invite that in for them.

[Amy]

Yeah, I open a space for it. I can share an example that I'm not proud of at all.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

But I learned from it. It's hard to even say because I'm. I'm mortified by myself, but it was in my marriage. My husband got out of the Air Force and I didn't realize how much of his identity was tied to that. So he went to the Air Force Academy after high school, went to pilot training right after that. And then 911 happened while he was at pilot training. So then immediately went into to war as a pilot in the Air Force. So much of his identity was, I'm in the Air Force. Not only that, his dad was a colonel in the Air Force. And since my ex husband was 5 years old, he's like, I'm going to be a pilot in the Air Force. So this is, I'm painting a picture that this was his identity. And when he got out, I don't think either of us realized how much it was going to impact him. And this happens to a lot of people that when leave a career like that, I'm sure there's. It could be a firefighter, a policeman, maybe even not a first responder type stuff. It could be any career. But when that becomes your identity and then you no longer have it and you're trying to find your way in the world, especially as a military person, because now you're a civilian. So sometimes some language if you're not sure, you may not understand. But that's like an identity crime world. It's just totally different. And I didn't appreciate that. And I don't even think he realized how difficult the separation was going to be and how he saw himself. Like his worthiness, his value. Like what now is he contributing to the world? Like he was like I was contributing to making the world a safer place, a better place. Like he was Passionate about the work he was doing. And not only that, he was special Forces. Like, there was just a lot of really cool things about his job. Right. So now that I've painted that picture, can you imagine if at some point along the way now we had other tension in our relationship because of this? And there were some things that were happening that were frustrating because of the separation.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

Like. Cause he. He didn't know how to manage it. I don't think he knew how to be sad about it. And then to your point, which is what made me think of it, I don't think I allowed space for it, because even though I want men to be sad and have space to be sad, and I've matured a lot since this. Like, we're going back to, like, 2012 with the story here. But I straight up looked at him one day and I was like, man up. And that is what I said. And that's.

[Kat]

You're, like, having, like, a body.

[Amy]

Like, don't say that. That's, like, the worst thing. I mean, I'm sure there's probably worse things I could say, but again, I will. This is not an excuse, but I will say again, there were. There was tension in our relationship, so I was frustrated and fed up, and I said that. And honestly, I don't know that he was ever able to let that go. And that's not ultimately what led to us getting a divorce over 10 years later. But it certainly didn't make things easier, because then, now he's like, okay, my safe space, which is supposed to be my wife. I, I, now I. I don't have permission to be sad here. And I wanted him to be sad. It's almost like we just didn't have the tools and we didn't know how to process together. But I should have been like, hi, this is hard, and you are struggling. How can I help? But honestly, with the other tension and other things that are going on, I don't even know if I would. If I would have said that, that, that would have been received and it would have worked. So I don't want to go shoulda, coulda, woulda. But I said that, and I'm not proud.

[Kat]

And that is you also, I think, because I appreciate where you're taking all your responsibility for that which you did it, so you're responsible for it. And we love the ands. That is a part of you that you were conditioned to treat men like that and to think of men like that. And so that's the work we do is like, we have to look at what do I think? And what are these, like, unconscious bias in our brains that don't actually fit with how we really view people. And this might. I'm not trying to make you feel better, but I do want to relate to you in the sense that I did this two weeks ago, not 10 years ago. And I also am a therapist. So my husband and I were in a fight and he maybe had a little tear fall, maybe a couple. And I looked at him and said, why are you crying? Because there was so much emotion. I don't remember exactly what I said, but it was something along the lines of like, why are you crying? I don't want you to cry about this. I want you to do something about it. Excuse me, What? That's not the type of human I want to be let alone partner or wife. And so I say this as like, I'm in it with you guys, where I have to allow space for my husband to feel sad and let him know that that sadness is not a weakness that actually is going to bring us closer. If I allow it to be there has nothing to do with being able to take care of me or being able to take care of a family or the work that you can or cannot do. That. That's a story we have built up in our head that no longer fits the reality so well. You're not alone is what I'm saying.

[Amy]

You're worse. I'm just kidding.

[Kat]

You did it last week and you're.

[Amy]

A therapist and wow. I'm just kidding.

[Kat]

Not going to you for advice anymore.

[Amy]

Joking I will come to for advice always. I love. I love your advice. Well, being able to admit I agree. And even though we know better, that's just great. A great example of even though I know better too. Who knows, one day I might be in a moment with my boyfriend. I like, man up, but then I'll be like, just kidding.

[Kat]

What I meant to say is when you blank, I feel blank.

[Amy]

Yeah, that's what I meant to say. So, okay, so sad. Being sad is not weak to, like all two of our male listeners right now.

[Kat]

Well, it's good for the women to also know that so they can share.

[Amy]

Like, it makes space for your husband or boyfriend or son to be sad. You know, it's a signal that something. Something meaningful has been lost or something meaningful has changed.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

So I forgive my 2012 self. Do you forgive your two week ago self? Okay, good. All right.

[Kat]

I'm gonna do better.

[Amy]

So we're gonna do better.

[Kat]

Introducing Instagram teen Accounts. A new way to keep your teen safer as they grow. Like making sure they've got the right gear for writing.

[Amy]

Knee pads.

[Kat]

Check.

[Amy]

And helmet.

[Kat]

Done. See you, dad. New Instagram teen Accounts. Automatic protections for who can contact your teen and the content they can see. There's a type of soil in Mississippi called Yazoo Clay. It's thick, burnt orange, and it's got a reputation. It's terrible, terrible dirt. Yazoo clay eats everything, so things that get buried there tend to stay buried until they're not. In 2012, construction crews at Mississippi's biggest hospital made a shocking discovery. 7,000 bodies out there or more, all former patients of the old state asylum. And nobody knew they were there. It was my family's mystery. But in this corner of the south, it's not just the soil that keeps secrets. Nobody talks about it.

[Amy]

Nobody has any information.

[Kat]

When you peel back the layers of Mississippi's Yazoo Clay, nothing's ever as simple as you think.

[Amy]

The story is much more complicated and nuanced than that.

[Kat]

I'm Larison Campbell. Listen to Under Yazoo Clay on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Amy]

Hi, friends. Sophia Bush here, host of work in progress. This week we had such a special guest on the podcast My Forever flotus. A mentor, a friend, a wife, a mother, an author, attorney, advocate, television producer. And now she adds podcast host to the list herself. Friends, Michelle Obama is here.

[Kat]

Sophia, I'm beyond thrilled to be able to sit down and chat with you.

[Amy]

We talk about it all. Life, love, motherhood.

[Kat]

Martinis, Vodka martini, dry, straight up olives, very cold.

[Amy]

My girl.

[Kat]

Barely any vermouth.

[Amy]

What's next? What she's watching on tv.

[Kat]

I am a white Lotuser. I am a Real Housewives person. I love the dating shows and tennis. I just find that to be a bit meditative.

[Amy]

You do not want to miss this. Listen to work in Progress on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's our next emotion feeling?

[Kat]

We're gonna talk about anger. So I love talking about anger. It is the easiest feeling other than gladness for me to feel, which I think a lot of people can probably relate to. It is what I call the justice emotion, because when we are aware of this thing, it helps us activate passion. It helps us activate knowing what's important to us. It helps us stand up for people. It helps us stand up for ourselves. It leads us into all of the directions of being like a strong, competent human With a sense of self. I love it. It's very. It's an empowering emotion. And we're going to talk about, too, what anger is and what anger isn't. Because I think when I say anger, what's the image you have in your head? Do that again.

[Amy]

This is how Amy is angry, or. I don't know. I am. I'm picturing me making a bowl of cereal and then smashing it on the ground. Not that I've ever done that.

[Kat]

Yeah. Okay.

[Amy]

But I have.

[Kat]

I get like this.

[Amy]

But so is my sister. Maybe it's hereditary.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

Have you ever thrown a dish?

[Kat]

I've never thrown a dish that I've thrown a dish.

[Amy]

I'm not saying at anybody, but, like, have you ever just smashed something down?

[Kat]

I've. I've slammed things. I slammed my door so many times as a child. My dad took it off the hinges.

[Amy]

Oh.

[Kat]

He said, don't slam your door one more time. And I said, yes, I will. What are you gonna do about it?

[Amy]

Slammed it.

[Kat]

And he took it off. And then I was like, I'll show. So I put two little nails at the top of my door frame and hung a sheet over it. And I was like, have a door. And then my parents love this story because I don't know how long I didn't have a door, but it was a long time. And my dad was like, I would have put your door on the next day. I was waiting for you to ask me. So where. I thought. I was like, I'll show you. I'll put this sheet up. He was like, you can have your door back.

[Amy]

Yeah, you did. It was say something, but that's funny.

[Kat]

So I've. I slam. I've slammed some things in my life, but I don't think I've ever broken it or slammed a dish down. That's sounds like it would. It would feel.

[Amy]

Kind of should try it.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

So why did you ask me what do I picture with anger? Because, I mean, I was picturing, like, some angry little, like, emoji thing.

[Kat]

I see, like, the red devil emoji in my head when I think about anger. Because that's what we told. That's what we're taught. Anger is, is. This is like big, loud, bad, scary. It's fighting. It's all of that. When anger could be a million things that are actually very comfortable to be with, but we are not shown that. And the need around anger is usually some form of needing to be heard. Whether it's I need to be heard or I Need this people to know this thing about the world or this thing about this person. Like I get angry when my friends are misunderstood. So it's not even that I need to be heard. It's like my friends need to be heard. So that's usually the need. And if we feel it, like I said, we have this empowerment. We again, we'll get our passion. It helps us create change in the world. Now if we ignore that anger, which is I think what a lot of people are taught specifically women are, don't do that. Don't be angry, don't be angry. Be grateful. Be this, be that. Hush, be quiet. Don't say that.

[Amy]

Waffle feathers.

[Kat]

Don't be loud. Don't be.

[Amy]

How can you be a helper?

[Kat]

Yeah, yeah. With be a helper without getting in the way of anything? And when that happens, we end up becoming some form of like a. And this is going to sound extreme but like this depressed sense of self. So we remove parts of ourselves.

[Amy]

Yeah. I see it as like sort of if you're this big, let's say we start out this big, full blow up doll. Okay. Side note, one time my parents had this and they had a blow up doll and I don't know why. Now that's what I'm picturing. They used to have these weird parties. They were at pool parties and naked pool parties. A naked blow up doll. But I don't know.

[Kat]

Wait, wait, stop.

[Amy]

I think it's like a joke.

[Kat]

Did you said they had naked pool parties? Yeah.

[Amy]

Naked pool parties. Yes. Yeah. I remember seeing my friend's dad naked. Like I was looking through the backyard and I was like, oh, there's Mr. Tucker. He's naked. Yeah, they. I don't know, they were before my parents got divorced. Like I don't think they were you never wild like swingers or anything, but it's just kind of. They would have parties, maybe there would be drinking and then people would be like, let's take our clothes off, jump in the pool. I don't, I don't know that everybody was naked. I don't know. I just know I saw Mr. We'll call him Mr. T naked. And whenever I started to have this image of a blow up doll, I'm just inviting you into my brain.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

So you're like, okay. You're sort of like part of you is depressed. And then I'm like, okay. The word that comes to mind for me is deflated.

[Kat]

Deflated.

[Amy]

And so then I'm like, well, if I'm this big blow up Doll. And then right when I think of me as a blow up doll, I'm like, oh, remember that naked blow up doll that mom and dad had at that party? Like, that's where my brain goes. So I'm just. I'm letting you in.

[Kat]

So then to do some brain spotting about around this.

[Amy]

No. Okay. No, it's fine. It's just that it's. I need to ask. My sister never told me that. Oh, yeah. Also, in our living room, we had this little stuffed animal frog on the bookshelf next to the encyclopedias. And it was like this vintage frog. If anybody else knows what I'm talking about, like, you'll know. Like, I think it was like a thing, this little vintage stuffed animal frog. It looks like a normal frog, but then when you pick it up, there's a big penis under the frog. Do you notice? But like, that was in our living room next to the encyclopedias. I don't know why. I think my parents are just, you know. But then when my dad left, my.

[Kat]

Mom got rid of the penis.

[Amy]

Well, she. She met. She found Jesus. And. Yeah, I think a lot of things changed. But not. I think I know.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

A lot of things changed.

[Kat]

I do want to say this. I'm laughing. That is not normal.

[Amy]

What's not normal?

[Kat]

One, to see your parents having naked parties. Two, to have a penis frog in your living room.

[Amy]

Okay, let me back it up. I had. I had parents. What I'm saying is, I don't think they were like, hey, kids, we're gonna be outside naked. I think they had put us to bed. We were asleep. They were having neighbors over. We're calling it a party. But let's say if they have four couples over, right? So then they're like, let's go swim. And then I peek outside and see Mr. Too Naked. And so now I'm calling it a naked pool party.

[Kat]

What did the penis frog do?

[Amy]

I don't know. I need to look it up.

[Kat]

Was it like a sex toy, I wonder?

[Amy]

No, it was a stuffed. It had little beans inside. Like, it's a stuffed. Like a. Like a paper weight, but like a picture.

[Kat]

Like a. I. I didn't see it because I can't.

[Amy]

Well, I bet if we Google it, we'll find it online. And if it is available or for sale on ebay, you're gonna buy thousands of dollars. No, but I'm thinking, like, this is. No, but I'm wondering if we should have kept it, because I feel like it's probably something that could be worth A lot of money now because they're like this. Like if I hear something one day that's like, we're selling a very rare vintage stuffed frog and his penis at Sotheby's, the auction starting at a million dollars. I'm gonna be like, we had one of those, you know, like those weird things that they sell for a lot of money.

[Kat]

So I do want to say Kat is here. Cryo cat. You're acting like you know what this is. Oh, you knew about Amy having this.

[Amy]

But you know my story. Or your parents had it.

[Kat]

Did your parents had it have a penis frog? No. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Amy]

Because I. But, but I mean, yeah, but cats probably like, like I'd have parties like that. She's like.

[Kat]

She's like, that sounds like a good time. I wish I was her neighbor.

[Amy]

Right.

[Kat]

I just need a partner and we're gonna.

[Amy]

Yes. Okay. So.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

I just to back it up, I guess I'm clarifying that I get that that's not normal and I don't even know.

[Kat]

Well, it's not normal for you to know it. I think that's correct. Your parents didn't know that you knew.

[Amy]

Right. And I don't think they were like, hey, kids, look, we just got a new blow up doll. But I think it was the way their personalities were and their friendships. It was like debauchery, sort of like just haha. Like, hey, we're going over to Cliff and Judy's. That was my parents. Like, I'm showing up with a blow up doll. Yeah. And I'm gonna put it on their couch and just see how long it takes them to notice. And so then there's this naked blow up doll. So back to which if you think.

[Kat]

About your parents being like our age, like that would be kind of like a funny prank somebody would do. Right. I get it.

[Amy]

Okay. So that now that we've taken him a little detour down memory lane, what I was picturing is me as a doll. A blow up doll with fully clothes and like I've got the little part where the air goes in and it's like slightly open. And then every time you suppress this, it's like a little more air goes out and then you do it again and a little more air goes out until eventually you're like unrecognizable.

[Kat]

Yeah, that's actually a really good metaphor.

[Amy]

You're welcome.

[Kat]

And anytime. And it gave us a really fun story. But on the other side too, with that blow up metaphor, you can Also think about, like, me trying to hold in my anger takes a lot of energy, and so it can all. You can also use the metaphor of taking a beach ball and putting it underwater. And I can only hold it for so long. So when it does come out, it's going to come out in this crazy, exaggerated way, which is a lot of times what happens. And that's what people think. I think a lot of times when they see anger, they see that beach ball blowing up out of the water versus what actually was going on in that actual shade of anger. That is not people see. I think anger is like, rage a lot of times. And one of my friends used a couple of years ago the metaphor of, like, Jesus was one of the angriest people in the world on earth ever. And he walked around everywhere he went being, like, looking perfect. He was. He had so much anger. It's how you show it.

[Amy]

Yeah, well, I mean, you said it can be such a thing for. For justice, and. Yeah, so that makes sense. And if. When you brought up shades, it made me want to go look at our feelings wheel to look at the different shades of anger and share some of those. Bitter, irritation, disgust, jealous, disgusted, critical contempt, frustration, annoyance, resentful. And also passion, which I have learned.

[Kat]

To lean into that because I think for me, I used to. I used to tell myself a story that a lot of that justice and passion was, like, annoying or too much or overwhelming. If you ask Patrick, his favorite thing about me, he says, your passion. When he first told me that, I was like, you're just trying to be nice.

[Amy]

Stop gassing me up.

[Kat]

Yeah. He's like, no, it's your passion. And when I do get kind of fiery, he's like, this is. I love how much you care about things. And also, if I didn't allow myself to care about things, I don't know that I would be doing what I do.

[Amy]

Oh, I definitely don't think you would be.

[Kat]

So allow yourself to acknowledge your anger so you can acknowledge the stuff that really matters to you, and it actually helps you lead, I think, a more meaningful life.

[Amy]

I want to get to an example of anger with your partner, because I think that could be relatable, like, if your partner is picking at you and.

[Kat]

Joking at you, like, making little, like, fun. This actually happened a couple years ago. We were with Patrick's family on a family vacation. It's the first time I met them, and we were playing cards, and I had to use the restroom. So I got up to go use the restroom, and it was A glass door. And somebody had opened one side of the door and then locked the other side. Well, I didn't see that. And it was glass. So I walked with, like, some excitement and some pep in my stuff to go to the restroom, and I went.

[Amy]

To Patrick's new girlfriend.

[Kat]

And I'm like, you guys love me, and I'm so fun. I'll be right back. And then I walked into the door and was, like, pressing on it and pressing on it and pressing on it. And then I was like, oh. And then I just walked through the other door. I didn't think it was that big of a deal. Like, yeah, that was locked. No big deal. When I got back, they all were laughing so hard, and it felt like. I don't think they meant anything of it, and I don't think they were, like, talking about me the whole time I was gone. But they kept making comments about it, and Patrick kept making comments about it. And I had to say, hey, I can take a joke. But when you do it this many times, it's a little frustrating. Like, I want. I want to move on. I don't want this to all be focused on me. So I can take a joke, but it's getting a little bit much. If I didn't do that, I'm sure I would have been so passive aggressive to Patrick. I would have probably given him the silent treatment. I would have probably been like, I'm going to bed. Like, I just have a headache, but I'm going to bed. Like, I probably was. I would. That's how I would show up. And we do that all the time. It's the whole idea of, it's not the trash we're talking about, it's something else.

[Amy]

Right. I know that with suppressed frustration or anger, a lot of times with the passive aggressiveness is sarcasm. Or you can start to say things like, you know, that you really want to say, but you say it with sarcasm. So that's another way we can, like, pay attention to maybe what's going on. Like, because sometimes I just can't put my finger on it, or I don't even know that I'm suppressing it. But then if I have, like, a quick sarcastic reaction to something and I say it, that might be an indicator to me of, like, oh, something's going on. I. I was sort of just joking with that, but I don't think I'm joking. I think that this is actually bothering me. So I've been using that as a way to sort of gauge how I'm really feeling. Because then it's also easy for me to want to write it off and be like, oh, it's just joking. If they're like, hey, that kind of was. Is everything okay? I'm like, well, I was just joking. But that's another sign to me of like, okay, well, was I just joking or am I really frustrated or annoyed by this?

[Kat]

Is there something you care about?

[Amy]

Yeah, but do you. Do you understand what I'm saying? Of like, sometimes I don't know what that is, but then I'll have a behavior that's like, oh, where did that.

[Kat]

It'll wake you up to it.

[Amy]

That's it. It wakes me up because it's like, it just comes out in sarcasm. And there. There's space for sarcasm. There's healthy sarcasm. Like, yeah, like, you can be sarcastic. Sarcasm is great. I love sarcasm. But it's sort of like when my own sarcasm surprises me and I'm like, where did that come from? That was a little feisty.

[Kat]

I think a lot of us, because. And again, this is more towards women, but I think men can do this too. But if we're taught that we have to be nice and kind, and we're taught that we can't ask for our needs, and we're taught that to be quiet or don't be angry, any of that, we're going to find these other ways to, like, get that out. And that is a, like, it almost is like a loophole to your anger. It's like, well, I have a need that needs to be met, but, like, I can't go directly there, so I'm going to go this way. So it's this unconscious loophole that we've created. And the way to undo that is, like, what you're saying. When you do it, you can't help it at first, but, like, when you do it, acknowledge it, take a step back and say, that's not really who I want to be. And I don't want to show up that way. I need to, like, reflect. And it's okay to not have the answers, too. A lot of times when I'm in conflict, I will have to say, hey, I want you to know that I'm not stonewalling you, which is ignoring somebody or trying to be difficult or ignoring what you're saying. But I need a second to process this, so it's okay. I think when we get in our feelings, it feels a lot of times like there's a rush to do or say or figure out what the need is. It's okay to take time with all of it.

[Amy]

My son was a beautiful example of that. The other night, we were having a moment because of homework, and he was able to say to me, mom, I need a minute. Because I went and I sat back down and I'm like, okay, let's try this again. And he said, not yet. I need a moment. And I said, well, let's like, will you forgive me? And he was able to say in his own words, he's still processing, so give him space. And so I had to completely walk away and give him the opportunity to work through whatever he needed to work through to then move forward with me. And I was like, that's just a good example of, like, it's always okay, no matter the circumstance, to take space and time.

[Kat]

I wish that I had that language as a kid doing math homework with my dad. Because I wasn't saying, I need a minute, I was crying.

[Amy]

Yeah. Does your dad want to come over and help Stevenson with math? Because that'd be great.

[Kat]

Well, he's pretty good at it, but I don't know if you want to. Well, Stevenson has better skills than I.

[Amy]

Had, so maybe he'll tell your dad.

[Kat]

Like, hey, whoa, we both need to take five.

[Amy]

Next thing I know, like, I come home and like, Stevenson's doors, office hinges. And I'm like, what happened? Your dad just is like, don't worry, took care of things. He's not going to be a problem for you anymore. Oh, my God.

[Kat]

Well, the reason we would always fight as kids with my dad doing mathematics, because my dad would show us how to do it. And I'd be like, but I have to show my work. And that's not how the teacher taught me to do it. And he's like, it doesn't matter. I got you the right answer. So he would get frustrated. And I'm like, but, dad, we have to do the steps. And I was a perfectionist. And he was like, what does it matter? I got you the right answer. So then the doors were off the hinges and, you know, it was over.

[Amy]

Now I ran away. So in a nutshell, for anger, Anger is not bad. Anger is your friend.

[Kat]

It's so helpful.

[Amy]

So helpful doesn't mean you get to.

[Kat]

Be all feeling angry, excuse to be mean.

[Amy]

Well, I know, but if you channel it or if you suppress it, you may be that beach ball out of the water and you don't want to be that. You want to be just like a normal blow up doll.

[Kat]

Inflated.

[Amy]

A perfectly inflated blow up doll. Just the right you know? Okay, so pull in there. Yeah, this is a good stopping point. Don't forget YouTube us up. We are feeling things. Podcast, subscribe, like, follow, whatever, all the things. Instagram and then email. Email. Oh, we need your emails, which we're getting a lot. They are so great. We haven't even been able to get through all of the emails, so it's so great to already have couch talks Q A emails from y'all. But we'll. We'll always take more. So. Hey, [e-mail] is the email address. And yeah, we just hope that you.

[Kat]

Have the day you need to have.

[Amy]

Is that how we want to do it or we want to say it together? That's so hard. Try. Let's try it.

[Kat]

One, two.

[Amy]

I'm doing improv. And all of that is also too about reading each other. So you just have to have really good eye contact and we'll be able to do it together. Okay. And Kat and I just hope that you have the day you need to have one more time because with good I. Let's like, I'm gonna really dial into you.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

Okay. Am I. Cat and I both. Okay. Okay. Cat and I both help you have the day you need to have. Bye.

[Kat]

Bye. Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia. I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and stories from the frontiers of Marketing. I'm having conversations with some folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty, Tarang Amin, legendary singer, songwriter, and philanthropist Jewel. Being a rock star is very fun, but helping people is way more fun. And Damian Maldonado, CEO of American Financing. I figured out the formula.

[Amy]

I just have to work hard.

[Kat]

Then that's magic. Join me as we uncover innovations in.

[Amy]

Data and analytics, the math, and the ever important creative spark, the magic. Listen to math and magic on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The number one hit podcast, the Girlfriends.

[Kat]

Is back with something new, the Girlfriend Spotlight, where each week you'll hear women share their stories of triumph over adversity. You'll meet Luann, who escaped a secretive religious community.

[Amy]

Do I want my freedom or do.

[Kat]

I want my family? And now helps other women get out too.

[Amy]

I loved my girls. I still love my girls.

[Kat]

Come and join our girl gang. Listen to the girlfriend Spotlight. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Amy]

Hi, I'm Sam Mullins, and I've got a new podcast coming out called Go Boy, the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable.

[Kat]

Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.

[Amy]

Had spent 24 of those years in jail. But when Roger Karan picked up a pen and paper, he went from an ex con to a literary darling from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts. Listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.