AMY: Stonewalling (Part 4 of How Relationships Begin to End: The Four Horseman)

Summary

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The Bobby Bones Show: "AMY: Stonewalling – How Relationships Begin to End (The Four Horsemen, Pt. 4)"

Podcast: The Bobby Bones Show, Feeling Things with Amy and Kat
Host: Amy & Kat
Air Date: October 12, 2025
Episode Theme: The final installment in the “Four Horsemen” series, exploring “stonewalling” as a key factor in relationship breakdown, based on Dr. John Gottman’s research.

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Episode Overview

In this insightful and candid episode, Amy and Kat conclude their engaging series on Dr. John Gottman’s “Four Horsemen” – the predictors of relationship dissolution. Today’s focus is on stonewalling, the final horseman, unpacking what it means, why it occurs, and, importantly, how to address it in order to foster healthier, more resilient relationships. The conversation navigates playful banter, personal anecdotes, expert insights, and practical advice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Intro & Setting the Scene

• The hosts open with a light-hearted mood, reflecting Amy’s “playful” feeling of the day. They engage in a fun activity with partner/personal questions to set a collaborative, relaxed tone before delving into the heavier topic of stonewalling.
  • Memorable Moment:
    “I see them riding in on their horses. Because today’s horse is stonewalling.” — Kat [02:26]

2. Playful Icebreaker Game ([03:39]–[13:00])

• Amy and Kat answer each other a series of whimsical, get-to-know-you questions, designed to encourage openness and vulnerability (examples include "Where would you look if I disappeared for 24 hours?", "If I got arrested, what crime would it be?", "Which cartoon character are you when mad?" etc).

• The game doubles as a gentle segue to stonewalling, as Amy notes how her partner connected her own tendency to get quiet in conflict to Tom and Jerry’s silent dynamic—hinting at stonewalling.

  • Notable Quote:
    “When I get upset, I become very quiet. And Tom and Jerry is silent, I think was his point in that. So, I was like, Patrick, that was very introspective.” — Amy [10:45]

3. Review of the Four Horsemen & Where Stonewalling Fits In ([22:48]–[23:34])

• Quick recap of all four horsemen – Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt, and Stonewalling – and their antidotes.

• Stonewalling is presented as the final, often misunderstood behavior, typically appearing after a build-up of emotional conflict.

  • Key Fact:
    “Stonewallers are 80% male… but that statistic might waver a little bit.” — Amy [02:58]

4. What is Stonewalling, Really? ([24:00]–[28:31])

• Kat equates stonewalling with the ‘silent treatment,’ viewing it as manipulative and controlling.

• Amy reframes stonewalling using Gottman’s research: it’s less an intentional tactic and more a physiological, often unconscious, response to emotional flooding—when someone is overwhelmed and shuts down because reasoning becomes impossible.

• They discuss physical signs (elevated heart rate), the difference between silent treatment and stonewalling, and why it's less about control and more about being overwhelmed.

  • Clarification:
    “It’s not so much this act of choice that I’m going to stop talking to manipulate you… It oftentimes is more a reaction…” — Amy [24:31]

5. Personal Experience & Empathy Around Stonewalling ([28:07]–[33:16])

• The hosts share their own run-ins with stonewalling, describing increased understanding and compassion for people who shut down in conflict.

• Amy opens up about past relationship dynamics that drove her to stonewall as a coping mechanism, then compares this to her healthier communication patterns now.

  • Notable Quote:
    “I would just stop talking, and then that would piss them off even more. But I learned to do that because I became so [overwhelmed]. So that was not, like, a healthy behavior…” — Amy [31:51]

6. The Antidote: Self-Soothing & Taking a Break ([33:18]–[34:58])

• When stonewalling occurs, the recommended antidote is to pause and self-soothe:

  • Communicate the need for a break (“I want to talk about this, but I need to calm down first.”)

  • Return to the conversation after emotions have settled (20 minutes suggested).

  • Use self-soothing activities (breathing, walking, light chores).

  • Actionable Advice:
    “If we’re in this conflict…‘Hey, I’m noticing I’m getting really overwhelmed… The best thing for me would be to take a break, calm down, and then let’s come back in 20 minutes.” — Amy [34:13]

7. Reframing Stonewalling & Relationship Health ([34:58]–[36:58])

• Stonewalling isn’t just manipulative — it’s a sign of unmet needs or personal overwhelm. Becoming aware of the four horsemen can help catch and address negative cycles before they deepen.
• Reference to Gottman Institute as a resource.

8. Compatibility and Managing Conflict ([37:33]–[43:44])

• Amy and Kat reflect on how differences in personality and emotional reactivity can impact conflict in relationships.

• Amy explains how her partner’s steady nature complements her more emotional disposition, highlighting the role of compatibility.

• When relationships are less dramatic than what you’re used to, it can even feel ‘boring’ — but that’s often a sign of deeper compatibility.

  • Memorable Moment:
    “If I was married to someone just like me, our relationship would be so chaotic. But Patrick brings me down, and I help ruffle him up a little bit…” — Amy [43:21]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Stonewalling’s Prevalence:
  “Stonewallers are 80% male… but that statistic might waver a little bit.” — Amy [02:58]

• On the Game’s Stonewalling Relevance:
  “When I get upset, I become very quiet. And Tom and Jerry is silent, I think was his point in that…” — Amy [10:45]

• Defining Stonewalling:
  “It’s not so much this act of choice that I’m going to stop talking to manipulate you. It oftentimes is more a reaction…” — Amy [24:31]

• Personal Example:
  “I would just stop talking, and then that would piss them off even more. But I learned to do that because I became so [overwhelmed]. So that was not, like, a healthy behavior…” — Amy [31:51]

• Stonewalling Solution:
  “The antidote is self-soothe. So it’s to essentially take a break and self-soothe…let’s come back in 20 minutes and finish this conversation.” — Amy [34:13]

• On Compatibility:
  “If I was married to someone just like me, our relationship would be so chaotic. But Patrick brings me down, and I help ruffle him up a little bit…” — Amy [43:21]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:20] Introduction/Feeling of the Day & Context for Stonewalling
• [03:39] Icebreaker Game (playful questions relating to relationships and conflict styles)
• [10:45] Stonewalling Link via Tom & Jerry Analogy
• [22:48] Review of Four Horsemen and Previous Episodes/Antidotes
• [24:00] What is Stonewalling? Defining & Debunking Myths
• [28:07] Empathy and Personal Experiences with Stonewalling
• [33:18] The Antidote: Self-Soothing, Taking a Break, and Managing Overwhelm
• [37:33] Navigating Compatibility and Partner Differences

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Tone, Style, and Language

• Conversational, humorous, and supportive, with a blend of personal stories and practical relationship advice.
• The hosts are honest about their own strengths and shortcomings, modeling vulnerability and introspection for listeners.

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For New Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

This episode is a helpful, compassionate look at how even well-intentioned partners can become emotionally overwhelmed and shut down, and why stonewalling is less about malice and more about needing space. The advice is actionable and grounded in both research and lived experience. Whether you’re struggling with conflict in your own relationship, want to support a partner, or just love hearing relatable, insightful discussions—this conversation is packed with wisdom and heart.

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Further Resources:
For deeper exploration, visit the Gottman Institute (gottman.com) for research and tools on relationships and the “Four Horsemen.”

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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Hey, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. I was just in Seattle, Matt, and honestly, it's one of the greatest cities in the world, particularly in the summer. I went on this run by the water. We hopped a ferry across Puget Sound. Just an unforgettable trip. That's what struck me. What seems normal to a homeowner. It can be the thing that makes a guest trip really special. Which is why hosting your home on Airbnb makes sense, right? Travelers are looking for those authentic, memorable spaces and if you don't have time to manage all that well, Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy. A local co host can help with everything from creating the listing to keeping your place running smooth. Find a co [e-mail] host.

[C]

If you.

[A]

Ever have feelings and you just want some, maybe a cat got you covered like a number. Ladies and fellas, we just follow in the spirit where it tell us from the real stuff to the chill stuff.

[C]

And the in between.

[A]

Sometimes the best thing you can do.

[C]

Is just stop and feel things.

[A]

This is Feeling Things with Amy and Kat.

[C]

Happy Tuesday. Welcome to Feeling Things. I'm Amy and I'M Kat. And here we are. It is the final horseman. I don't know why every time I tell you when we talk about this, like, I see them riding in on their horses. Because today's worst is stonewalling.

[A]

And he's writing in without saying a word.

[C]

No, he's just. It doesn't have to be a he. Women can stonewall, but it most likely is a he. Well, but you told me that you stonewall, and I was a little bit shocked. But you were saying you were like, it's kind of crazy because Dr. Gottman says that. What percentage of men do this?

[A]

Well, stonewallers are 80% male.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

From his findings. Yeah. But does it mean that obviously 20%. And that statistic, I think, might waver a little bit, but it shocks you because I'm a girl or because you.

[C]

Know me, I have not experienced stonewalling from you. So I don't know if this is something you reserve just for your man, you know, inside your special for him. Just something you like to do to your lover.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So we'll get into stonewalling, but before we do that, you've got our feeling of the day, or your feeling of.

[A]

The day, I guess it could be yours. You can buy osmosis.

[C]

Well, what's your feeling?

[A]

And I'll tell you, I'm feeling playful.

[C]

I could get on board with that.

[A]

And I need you to get on board with that because I have an activity for us. Oh, yeah.

[C]

So the gift of your playfulness is that we have an activity.

[A]

Yes. And every. Everybody can participate. Okay. This is going to be a gift to you because you can take this out into the world with you. So I was just scrolling Instagram one day, and I think because we talk about conversation cards a lot, maybe I get sometimes these reels or things that are just like, questions to ask your partner or anybody. I think this comes from Flamingo app. Reels is the Instagram account. If you go to their account. There's tons of different options of this, but I was scrolling one day and I was about to go. Me and Patrick were going to dinner that night, so I saved it and we did it as an activity for dinner. And it was just seven fun, ridiculous questions to ask your partner. But we did them, and I was like, you could do this with. You could ask. It doesn't have to be your partner. Some of them, it would be kind of weird.

[C]

Could be your podcast partner.

[A]

Yes. Sometimes you have to think. So I don't want you to feel pressure to, like, Rapid fire answer these. But I thought we could do them together.

[C]

Okay, so you're going to answer them as well?

[A]

Yeah, but it's kind of cheating because I've had time to think about it.

[C]

It's fine.

[A]

Okay. And I'm gonna share something that kind of has to do with stonewalling in one of Patrick's answers. Okay.

[C]

You know what I was thinking? If, like, you're feeling playful and you don't lean into it, you miss out on fun stuff like this.

[A]

Yeah. What if you were like, I don't feel like it. And then not just you miss out, everybody misses out.

[C]

Right. Like when you don't pay attention to your playfulness, so.

[A]

But sometimes you're not feeling it, so I get that too.

[C]

Right.

[A]

If you need time for one of these questions, you can say, pass and we'll come back to it.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

If I disappeared for 24 hours, where's the first place you would look for me?

[C]

Well, so you're not at your house, obviously.

[A]

Cat's missing for 24 hours.

[C]

I would check your parents house.

[A]

Am I there a lot? You're thinking, like, really logically. Are you okay?

[C]

Yeah. But you're not at your office, probably soon. Okay. Where?

[A]

I think the point of this question.

[C]

Is, am I not being playful?

[A]

I think you're trying to solve a crime right now.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

It's hypothetical. For.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Patrick said he would look for me in the bed because I always want to go to bed.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm in the bed at 8 o' clock at night. He was like, you'll be in that cute. I said for you, you'd be on a walk.

[C]

Me?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

For me. Okay.

[A]

I would look for you at the place that you walk. That I don't want to say out.

[C]

Loud because in there all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. Yeah, that's good. All right, I get it now. So I'd look for you in bed.

[A]

Are you having fun?

[C]

I. Yes. I guess now that I get the idea of it, I would say that there's. But y' all moved, so this wouldn't be you anymore. But if y' all still lived kind of in the area that you lived in, well, I'd look for you maybe somewhere, one of those places near there where you can like go and drink and play games.

[A]

Okay, that. Okay, that's a really good answer.

[C]

Yeah. Like hard games and stuff.

[A]

Okay. So at any bar, there's like food and stuff too. Okay. Yeah.

[C]

You know, there's like sports on during the day.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[C]

That's a really good not cuz you're have a drinking problem.

[A]

I wasn't thinking that, but okay.

[C]

Okay, well, I'm clear.

[A]

I get it.

[C]

We might have a new listener in there.

[A]

She's always look for at the bar. Yeah, and most of the time when I'm at the bar, I'm playing cards. Okay, number two, if I got arrested, what crime would you assume I committed? I can answer first.

[C]

You go first.

[A]

I said accidentally stealing something if you didn't ring it up at a self checkout. And my reasoning is you are very lawful. I don't know if that's the right word, but you follow the law.

[C]

The law.

[A]

I think you're like me in that.

[C]

Except I'm driving with an expired license right now, so I'd probably go to jail for that.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Like I'm way expired.

[A]

So you don't have a real id?

[C]

No.

[A]

So I guess you're using your passport to fly.

[C]

Like I'm so expired that I haven't have to take the driver's test to get my license.

[A]

No, no, no.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

How expired is that?

[C]

It's expired enough, like a few months. Oh, okay. February. Well, you have to retake your license. I get that it expired in February, but my Shannon just called you out. Okay, no, but I'm clarifying. Clarifying? It expires and then you have some time to renew it without having to take the test and. Yes, and I, I, that's what I'm saying. I, I've just missed am. I'm not that far out from my period where I have to take the test.

[A]

You have to get in the car with a stranger and do like, oh.

[C]

I think it's a written test. I don't think I have to do.

[A]

The, what do you mean a written test?

[C]

I have to do the written test, not a test test.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Or if I do that, that's fine, I'll be good.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Yeah, that doesn't scare me.

[A]

I was so nervous about my driving test. My mom had to. You know, most kids are like, when they turn 16, they're like, mom, let's go. My mom had to like surprise me one day and be like, we're going to take the driver's test. Because I wouldn't do it. So I probably would just be like, I can't drive anymore.

[C]

So I'm thinking like there was injustice somewhere and you like, I don't know, you did something right or wrong and ended up in jail.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Like, I don't know if you're protesting something or like you Feel that's like, obviously, you can legally protest, but something goes terribly wrong, and you end up in jail for it.

[A]

It's a, like, misunderstanding.

[C]

It's a huge misunderstanding. But you were just trying, like, to help. To help.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

That ended up in jail. That's interesting, because you like for there to be justice.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, when I'm mad, which cartoon character do I act most like?

[C]

Okay, you go first.

[A]

Okay. This was hard. I had to literally Google, what are cartoon characters that get mad? And this one didn't come up in that. But I did see it, and it reminded me of you. I'm gonna say Mulan. The reason is one, I just really like Mulan, but when she gets mad, she uses that to, like, to do something good and, like, drive her. I feel like when you get mad, you get like, oh, I'm gonna do this anyway. Or not, like, break the law, but I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna prove them wrong, or I'm gonna fight for myself. And I feel like, that's Mulan and that's you.

[C]

Okay. I've never. I have a confession. I have not ever seen that.

[A]

Wait, you're not familiar with this?

[C]

I know Mulan, but I have never seen it.

[A]

Let's get down to business.

[C]

No.

[A]

The Huns. Oh, Chris Aguilera that I see staring straight back at me. Houston's gonna take this out.

[C]

Don't cut out. Oh, I like that. You just sing that. Houston, leave it in. That was cute. I have not seen Mulan.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

That was my favorite Disney movie. Okay, that is homework. You've got to watch it.

[C]

Are you kidding me? I've assigned Pretty Woman to you, like, 500 times, and you've never watched?

[A]

Okay, I'll do it.

[C]

Okay, fine. You watch Pretty Woman in two weeks.

[A]

You have two weeks.

[C]

We have two weeks to watch it.

[A]

Because you got to focus on your driving test first.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. You can take time to think about that, but I will tell you Patrick's answer.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

He said. Which I thought was so creative of him. He also watched a lot of cartoons growing up. He said Tom and Jerry. Because you get really quiet when you get mad, which stonewalling. When I get upset, I get. Become very quiet. And Tom and Jerry is silent, I think was his point in that. Okay, So I was like, patrick, that was very introspective.

[C]

I don't really know.

[A]

And you know me so well.

[C]

I mean, I'm trying to think of, like, cartoon characters, and I don't. I don't know that I Know this one.

[A]

That's okay. I took a lot of time for that one. So we can. I'll give you a pass.

[C]

I'll just. I second what Patrick said.

[A]

Okay. Number four, if we swap lives for a day, what's the first thing you'd struggle with?

[C]

Oh, okay. Oh, I just thought of something. Can't say.

[A]

Well, you can say that. No, just. You can say that. Just don't say what it is. You can just say something that I can't say.

[C]

Well, something that I can't say. But that's not very fun for our listeners.

[A]

That's very true. And we're being playful.

[C]

Yeah, we're being playful. So something we can talk about one day. We're not trying to be total secret, but it would be that. And then. Well, I was gonna say your job, like, being a therapist and having to, like, I think you'd, like, give people advice, but I think I'd kind of like it. But then what if I mess up and I give them the wrong advice? That would be bad.

[A]

Well, you're not really giving people advice.

[C]

That's true. They have to come up with their own conclusion. Yeah, I know, but if I guide them or do say something wrong, like, I would just feel very stressed about that or, like, taking on all of their emotions and things they have going on. Like, that's got to be a lot for you and all the therapists out there. So shout out oh, all the different home cooked meals that you do. Stressful, because y' all are like, yay, we're gonna do homemade pasta tonight.

[A]

Which we did on Saturday. Yeah.

[C]

Which isn't that hard because you taught me on one of our cooking episodes. But y' all tackle and take on new little things like that.

[A]

I said managing the balance between managing your kids and your work and, like, making everything happen.

[C]

Nails. If I were you, I'd be nervous.

[A]

About keeping up with your nails. Yeah, they're breaking right now.

[C]

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[A]

What does keep your attention?

[B]

Sports commentary Here we are, fourth quarter of the year. The clock's winding down and flu season starting up. So don't get caught off guard. Make your move to Walgreens and get that flu shot. They even know which other vaccines you may need and when you need them. That's how you stay in the game.

[A]

So walk in or schedule an appointment today to get up to date on all your vaccines. That's the human kind of help.

[C]

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[A]

Okay. If you saw me yelling at somebody in the street, what do you think I'd be losing my cool over?

[C]

Okay, what'd you feel?

[A]

This is why that I thought that you're a legal one was interesting because I feel like you'd be like, sticking up for somebody and you'd be yelling at somebody else because, like, somebody did something to somebody else so you wouldn't even be involved. Like, let's say, like somebody hit somebody else's car and then try to run away. You'd be like, hey, you get back here. You hit their car. Or something like that. Or if somebody was like, mean to kids, you'd be like, careful.

[C]

As long as I knew they weren't going to retaliate, then I probably would do it. But my kids bikes were stolen once and I ran into the kids at the park and I went after them and was like, hey, those are. I mean, it was my kids bikes. Like, Stevenson had this. He was like seven. He had this tiny bike that was red with, like, fire flames on it. And this like 14 year old kid was on this tiny bike.

[A]

Did you get it?

[C]

The person next to him was on Stashira's kind of girly bike. And they had been stolen out of our garage like a week or two before. And it was the Nashville Marathon, and we were down at a park watching because, like, Mike D. From the Bobby Bones show was racing. And so we went to watch him. And it was me and my husband at the time and the kids, and there was tons of people around. So I think that's why I wasn't scared to go up to them. And I went up and I said, where did you get those bikes? And they knew they were busted. And they were like, oh, we. They got them from our cousin or something. And I'm like, but you know those aren't your bikes, right? Cuz like, look like y' all are teenage boys. And these. This is a. Do you see that little boy and that little girl over there? Those are their bikes. And I think you know exactly where they came from. And you.

[A]

Yes, Amy.

[C]

And then. And I said, and I think the right thing to do would be to give them back. They want their bikes. Like, they would have ridden their bikes down here to watch this race.

[A]

But we walked, they went in your.

[C]

Garage and they stole them. That was when we lived in East Nashville and our garage was in an alley I mean, we probably had the garage door open open maybe or something. But during the day, I don't know. I just know that the bikes were missing and then went up to them, but then a police officer. And maybe this is what also made my fear of retaliation heightened because I was able to do at the time. But there was like, I said it was a marathon, there was tons of people around, but a police officer was doing traffic when we were walking back, like he was helping escort cars and. And I stopped him and I said, hey. And then he looked at me and he was like, wait a second, are you Amy from the Bobby Bones show? And I said, yes. And I said, thank you for being a listener. Like this makes me feel better about telling you this story, but I just saw these two kids and they were on my kids bikes and I went up to them and said, you need to give them back. And they were stolen from our garage a couple weeks ago. And he said, well, I think that's great that you got the bikes back. He's like, we've had to up the number of police in this area because of juvenile crime and other activity where they could be armed and dangerous. And so he's like, while it worked out for you, I would highly recommend never going up to these kids, even though they look like 14, 15, 16, they could be carrying a weapon and decide to pull it on. He's like, I'm just letting you know that we have upped our police presence over here specifically because of that. So don't be so quick to go up to these kids and demand your bikes back. And I was like, oh, yes, sir, no problem.

[A]

Good to know, good to know.

[C]

And so that was probably 2018, 2019 or something. But I do have this major fear of retaliation. Well, yeah, only get involved. There's something I heard about someone in town that did something really shady recently. They're kind of well known. I don't want to say exactly because I don't know how public all the details are, but I will say that I have played over in my mind probably about five times if I were to ever run into him, like just being like, you're not a good person. Like, that's how passionately I felt about it. My boyfriend told me I was overreacting a little bit and I said, I don't think I am.

[A]

But you're, you're worried about them retaliating?

[C]

No, I don't think he would retaliate. That's why I feel okay being like, okay, but I don't think I would actually ever say that to someone anyways, but I pictured myself doing it.

[A]

It's satisfying to, like, imagine that.

[C]

Icky to me. Like, what he did is so icky and doesn't make sense. It's such a power trip. It's like using your power, money, and influence to, like, where it doesn't belong.

[A]

Wait to hear about this.

[C]

Like, a total butt head move. Just because you have money and power, the impacts someone's life and their livelihood, but because you disagreed with something, like, it shouldn't. It's sort of political, but it shouldn't have gotten in the way of anything. And it just really made me bummed because, like, do better. Like, we need to be. We need to do better. Like, you have children. Like, why? It just made me.

[A]

Okay, so you would go, that's what. Yeah, I would find you in the parking lot doing.

[C]

Maybe if I see him telling them, picture me running into that guy and being like, better. Hey, no, it'd more be like, I didn't even think I would be, like, super judgy. I would just be, like, confused. Like, seriously, where did this go wrong? When did you become the person?

[A]

Help me understand.

[C]

Yeah, help me understand. Because, like, this is not cool.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

This is not cool. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Okay, so there you have it. I feel like this game is long.

[A]

We're almost done. Are you not having a place of fun time?

[C]

Sib. Siv Siblings.

[A]

We have two more, and they're very quick. Wait. Oh, my gosh. I just have to say this. You just said, that's not cool. On my thing. I said I would see you talking to somebody saying, hey, that's not cool.

[C]

Oh, you quoted me. Yeah, okay. See, but I don't know if I answered, but I think that that's what you would be doing too.

[A]

Well, remember that one time I got in the fight with a lady in the parking lot and you were like, don't do that, Catherine. She could have a gun on her. Yes, I like. What is it called when you, like, stake out? I wouldn't move because she was trying to steal my parking spot and she was trying to make me move, and then she was pretending like she was gonna hit my car, and I was like, hit it. And then you were like, heather, don't do that.

[C]

No, she could have a gun.

[A]

Okay. Anyway, if we were in a zombie apocalypse, would I be the comic relief group leader or the one who screams first?

[C]

Comic relief group leader or the one that screams first? No offense, but I don't see you leading us you probably would be the comedic relief. Or what's the next one?

[A]

The one who screams first.

[C]

Yeah, you're screaming. You're screaming first.

[A]

I was thinking you would be the comic relief.

[C]

Yeah, I'm not the leader either.

[A]

Okay. And then last one. If I had a fan club, what would they call themselves? Yours was easy.

[C]

Oh, the kitty cats.

[A]

Yeah. And then yours would be the brownies.

[C]

Oh, cute.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, that's it.

[C]

Fun game.

[A]

Fun game. To bring us to a not so fun topic.

[C]

Stonewalling.

[A]

Stonewalling. So, quick recap. We're on the fourth Horseman. We've had three. So first one was.

[C]

First one was criticism.

[A]

And the antidote to that was to.

[C]

Not criticize the gentle startup.

[A]

The second one was.

[C]

Sorry, I feel like I'm giving you a pop quiz. Frazzled.

[A]

I'll help you.

[C]

The second one was defensiveness. And the antidote was don't be so defensive.

[A]

To accept responsibility. Yeah. And the third one was contempt. And the antidote was dot.

[C]

My contempt. You see, with all three of them, I'm just, like, repeating it back.

[A]

Yeah. It's to foster culture of appreciation.

[C]

Yes, that's right.

[A]

That's a hard one. And then the fourth one is stonewalling. Stonewalling. Okay, we already said stonewalling. These are some fun facts. 80% of the time, it's men. And I actually want to ask you this before I give you any information, because I think this one is very. It's confused. So when you think of stonewalling, you've heard of this word before. What do you think stonewalling is, and why do you think people do it?

[C]

Silent treatment. Okay, How I picture it. And I think they do it because that's their way of controlling the situation.

[A]

So it's like this, like, active, very much manipulative. Yeah.

[C]

My experience with people that give the silent treatment, or when I have is, like, you send the other person into this, like, what have I done? Panic. Or they may try to start fixing it, and then you feel like, oh, I have all this control. Look, they're wanting to talk to me, but I'm just gonna. Okay, keep not talking. But.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

I think people do that. But when we're talking about stonewalling, here it comes last. And. And it's usually talked about last because it usually comes after a buildup of emotion. And it. It happens when you feel overwhelmed. And this flooding experience happens. And one of the predictors for stonewalling is just a high heart rate, like, over a hundred. So it's not so much this act of choice that like I'm going to stop talking to manipulate you. It oftentimes is more a reaction to sometimes unconscious or subconscious. I'm going to not say anything because I don't know what to say or because I think I'm making it worse. And if I just am quiet, then maybe things will get better. And what happens a lot of times is that makes people even more mad. So if I'm silent towards you, that escalates you, Right? Versus calms you down, right?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so this happens when somebody gets flooded. So after you've been in a conflict and you're feeling flooded, then you kind of have this reaction to. You don't know what to do. It's like physiologically you're in this fight or flight. When you're in fight or flight, what happens to you?

[C]

Well, I'm much more reactive. I mean, it depends. Yeah, but I'm not thinking logically and I. Not very rational.

[A]

Yeah, well, because a part of your brain is shut off. So, like the logical part of your brain is not working. It's thinking survival. How do I survive? And when you're in actual danger, that's really helpful because it will help you get to wherever you need to go, whether you need to run, whether you need to freeze and play dead, whether, whatever. But in this scenario, you're not actually in physical danger. So your body is sending you sensations that aren't actually matching up with the reality of your physical safety. But when we are feeling flooded, we can't think and have a rational conversation. Therefore, the next logical. That's not logical step is I'm just gonna shut down. Okay, so that is what stonewalling is versus silent treatment. When I think of silent treatment, I think of what you were saying where I am just. I mean, I honestly think of myself when I was like in middle school. I don't know what our friend group's deal was, and maybe it was just me, but I love to get mad at somebody and then be like, I'm not talking to so and so. And then two weeks would go by and I would just ignore them. And then I would forget why I was mad. That's just manipulating because maybe if I stop talking to you, you'll apologize for what you did. But then at the end of the day, I don't even remember.

[C]

Well, so how do you know the difference if someone is stonewalling or silent treatmenting you?

[A]

You mean like, how do I know as the person that it's happening? To.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So I think in these scenarios, it's just good to know this because it happens at the point of, like, we've gone too far. This isn't just like something happens. You say something, and then all of a sudden I just, like, decide to give you the silent treatment. This is happening in an argument that we're having or a conflict that we're having, and then I end up shutting down. And you might not always know, but you can always check in. Like, hey, are you feeling overwhelmed? And a lot of times this happens, people will busy themselves, so I won't even be meaning to just not talk, but we'll be having an argument and all of a sudden I'll start doing the dishes and you know what I mean? And it will look like I'm not paying attention to you, but really I'm overwhelmed and I need some kind of escape and I don't know how to ask for it.

[C]

So out of all four of these, this one I feel like I'm having. I'm actually having, like, compassion for. Maybe I should have it for all of them. I'm not sure because everybody has their own things. But this one, now I'm starting to feel like, oh, like if someone is stonewalling, I'm less. Like, I want to know more of, like, what happened to you that's making you shut down.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. But like, surely maybe something happened to make you become a stonewaller. Or is that the natural.

[A]

Both.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I think it can be both. I was telling you earlier I was in a. Because again, you wouldn't assume that I would be prone to this behavior, but I am.

[C]

I was shocked to hear you say that you're a stonewaller and that Patrick made you, the cartoon character, go silent. At Walgreens, we know flu season can.

[A]

Feel a little chaotic, so we're going.

[B]

To give you our flu info in.

[C]

A meditation, keeping you calm, just like a certified Walgreens pharmacist will do if you're a little needle nervous. So walk in or schedule an appointment and Walgreens will handle the rest.

[A]

That's the human kind of help.

[C]

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[B]

Hey y', all, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. Joel, you were just out in Seattle recently, weren't you? Yeah, man, it was amazing. I went for one of the most glorious runs of my life, along the waterfront. It had everything you could ask for. Crisp air, mountain views, fairies gliding across the water. Beautiful. I love it, man. Yeah. For us, our road trip through Charlottesville was a highlight. We actually splurged on a custom built Airbnb and it was well worth it. The house had these unique touches like a poured concrete counter there in the kitchen with a built in drying rack. Super functional. It even inspired some ideas for our house. Oh, plus with a kitchen like that, you save money eating out. Yes, exactly. That's what struck me. What seems normal to a homeowner, it can be the thing that makes a guest trip really special. Which is why hosting makes sense, right? Travelers are looking for those authentic, memorable spaces. And if you don't have time to manage all that well, Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy. A local co host can help with everything from creating the listing to keeping your place running smooth. Yeah, so while you are off making your travel memories, your home could be helping someone else make theirs. Find a co [e-mail] host.

[A]

So in a previous relationship, something that would happen is we would get in these arguments and I would feel very confused. And I eventually realized that like if I agree with this person, I'm still getting yelled at. If I stand up for myself and I disagree, like I'm getting yelled at. And so I felt stuck and I would literally Feel like I'm trapped. Like, I don't know how to get out of this. I want to just shut down. So I would just stop talking, and then that would piss them off even more. But I learned to do that because I became so over. There was nowhere else for me to go and no options. And so that was not, like, a healthy behavior for me to do. But when you're in an unhealthy relationship, there's no.

[C]

You're coping.

[A]

Yes. If the other person isn't willing to, like, hear you out on that, then you don't really have anywhere to go other than, like, let's get out of the relationship. So now I'm in a healthy relationship. I still know that I get kind of flustered. And some of those conflict moments that we have, or I know that I've. I've. It takes me longer to figure out what I want to say sometimes in high conflict situations in our relationship. So rather than shut down because that's became, like, just part of what I did, a habit. I will say, I need a second. I will say, hey, I'm not, not talking to you. I'm going to respond to what you just said. I need a second to think about what I want to say and how I want to say it.

[C]

So is that the antidote, pausing?

[A]

So the antidote, pause, pause, pause, pause, pause. The antidote actually is pause, pause, pause, pause, pause. The antidote is to self soothe. So it's to essentially take a break and self soothe. And so what I was doing wasn't exactly the antidote, but it's. I mean, in tandem with it. We're like, I need space and time. And that's really just me communicating with my partner. Hey, I'm still here in this conversation. So with the antidote, self soothe, what is really recommended to do is let's take a break. So you say, if we're in this conflict and I notice that I want to shut down, hey, I'm noticing that I'm getting really overwhelmed, and I really want to talk about this, and I want to figure this out. So the best thing for me would be to take a break, calm down, and then let's come back in 20 minutes and finish this conversation. And then if the person says, I'm not taking a break, we're figuring this out now, you can still take the break. I would say, well, they're on their own horse.

[C]

It's just different.

[A]

Yeah. You can still say, well, you know, I need the break, so I'm gonna still go and I'm gonna go fold the laundry upstairs, and then I'll meet you back down here. And then they're kind of forced to take that. And hopefully they do self soothe, and then you just go do something. It could be anything. It could be just going and doing breathing exercises. It can be just walk, taking a little walk. It could be listening to a calming song. It could be your ice roller. It could be folding the laundry or cleaning something, but anything that helps regulate you, because in that moment, there's that feeling of deep overwhelm, trapped panic, and you're never going to solve a problem. Well, when those things are involved.

[C]

Yeah. No. Okay. I. I guess for the longest time, if I had heard stonewalling, which I never have done a deep dive into the Four Horsemen, so I've learned a lot. But stonewalling, I always thought was literally just silent treatment. It was more of, like you said, a manipulative tactic. And it's not at all like you're. When you're doing. That's why. That's probably why I was so shocked that you reacted that way, because I'm like, what?

[A]

Yeah, it's more.

[C]

Yeah, it's explaining it. It makes sense that you do that.

[A]

I mean, if you do any of these things, don't be too hard on yourself. There is a way out, and that's why we're talking about them. There is something else you can do. And like, any feeling. If I'm using these behaviors, that means that there's a need that's not being met. Yeah.

[C]

And if you haven't listened to the other four episodes, the little pop quiz recap we gave a minute ago of the, you know, horsemen and the antidote that was not fully, like, go listen to the episodes because you'll hear more insight and. Or go to the Gottman Institute's website. There's so many resources there. Because I do see how it would be so helpful to know, like, how you show up in your relationship and how your partner is showing up. If y' all are riding in on these horses at any time.

[A]

Yeah. And if you notice yourself, if you don't normally act like this in conflict and you notice yourself using one of these communication strategies, that's a signal or a sign for you that, like, hey, something's up. Like, it might not be about the relationship. It might really just be about me. If I'm really overwhelmed in general in my life or in any other area, and then I come and we have some kind of conflict, and I already feel like I'm up here. I might stonewall just because I've. I've shut down because other things are in the way. So it doesn't. It doesn't always mean there's something wrong with your relationship that needs to be fixed or repaired. It sometimes can be like, there's something that I need, and I'm bringing this into our relationship, and I don't want to do that.

[C]

Good point.

[A]

So this one's pretty simple. But stonewalling. We don't want to do it. Sometimes it happens. Thank you, John Gottman.

[C]

Thank you, John Gottman, for the Four Horsemen. I'm trying to think of, like, you know, entering about a year into my relationship, like, being in a less chaotic type relationship, like, how we go over this stuff, how I. If there ever is, like, I'll call it drama. But it doesn't have to be conflict. Okay? Conflict.

[A]

I think people have a weird relationship to the word conflict. Like we said in the first episode, conflict is good to have in a relationship. We need conflict in a relationship. And no relationship, if it's healthy, it's going to have it. So it's not about not having conflict. It's about how we manage it.

[C]

You're right. I know this. I know this. I know conflict is good in relationships. I know. And I know that we have had some healthy conflict, but when I think of, like, I think I'm the one that brings majority of it. Like, I don't know how to say this. That's why I'm struggling with my words, because I'm not trying to put it on me, but, like, he's so, like. Like, I was looking at him the other day, like, we were driving in the car or something, and I was, like, looking at him, and I was like, he's just so. Like, why is he so easy? Well, like, why is he so.

[A]

What's his enneagram number?

[C]

Chill. He doesn't know because he doesn't. He's like, it's not. I'm not really my thing.

[A]

He's literally Patrick.

[C]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I also had this thought when you said something about Patrick the other day. I almost texted you, but then I was like, this is about you and Patrick right now. So I don't want to make it about me and Alex at all. So I didn't text it. You texted something about Patrick about how you could almost cry right now at how great he's been to you through some stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I replied back, like, but in my mind, I also had a thought of, like, I Kind of had this feeling of that's how I feel about Alex. And it's weird. And then I was like, alex and Big P are same disease. But I didn't want to bring Alex into the mix because it was like, well, I know, but I didn't need to make that about. But I do think that they are very similar.

[A]

They're both very steady, even low. There's not a lot of chaos.

[C]

No, simple.

[A]

They're easy to get along. Everybody loves them. Yeah.

[C]

I told you before, sometimes I poke for the drama and then it like, he doesn't take the bait. Even. Sometimes I'm not even really poking. Like, I'm just like, well, surely this. Like, I. I would. I'll say it. It's not like I think before it's going to ruffle feathers. I'll say it and then there will be kind of like nothing. And I'm like, I thought that would. You would think that would ruffle a little bit. But, like, look at him. But it's not. He's not shallow or.

[A]

No, he's just not easily deep thinker.

[C]

It's not that he's like, not involved or engaged and he's just, like, tuning me out. That's not it at all. Because there could be that type of relationship, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I dated that one guy a little bit. Like, how do we describe him? Sort of just like aloof. Aloof and like, not very deep surface. Surface, yeah. Just sort of.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's not that. Because he's also deep anyway. It's just an interesting that you bring most of that.

[A]

Well, I. That's probably. I'll speak for my relationships. I don't. I don't totally know. But what I do know with Patrick is he's so adaptable and he truly doesn't care about a lot of stuff. He's a nine. I will say for him. I'm gonna speak for him. Sorry, Patrick, you're not gonna hear this. Anyway, he has learned to just, like, go with the flow in so many areas of his life that, like, he really, truly feels fine about a lot of stuff versus I have. Am not that way. I do. I have stronger emotions about things, so I'm more likely to bring something because I'm more likely to have a strong feeling versus, like, I'm dramatic and problematic. And he's not. He just doesn't. He doesn't get activated in that way because of how he's learned to deal with conflict in his past or just things in general. But one Thing that gets us in trouble is I don't, like, try to, like, start fights with him out of nothing, but I'll, like, ask a random question and, like, pretend that I like to get mad, and then he won't respond the way I want him to, and then I'll really get upset, like. And he'll.

[C]

You've admitted to that before.

[A]

And he's like, catherine, I'm not doing this because you're going to get mad. And this is about, like, if you were a worm or not. Like, you're not going to be a worm or. It was one time I asked, if I turned into a dog, would he remarry? And he said, yes, but I'd keep you as my pet.

[C]

And then you got really mad at me, really upset. That sounds like a trap, right?

[A]

100%. But, like, he can be more jovial in those things where, like, I start to think about them more deeply. And then I'm like, wait, what does this mean? And I'm like, wait, I don't even care.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So we've learned to, like. I've had to. Don't do that.

[C]

Well, thank you for sharing some of that, because I think it helps give me perspective of. I am a more emotional person than he is.

[A]

You're more.

[C]

So I'm bringing more of that emotion to the table. And then, I don't know, maybe in what certain things he's been through in life and, like, losing his wife, he has, like, perspective on, like, what really matters, and he's not going to, like, waste time on.

[A]

Well, he's. You're also thinking about things in different ways. So, like, when something happens for me, I have this feeling, and it's connected to this. But, like, he's having this feeling, and it's connected to this. So, like, that's why a lot of times it's not about what you're fighting about, it's about what that's connected to and what's really underneath that. Because if this is underneath the trash for me, but this is what's underneath the trash for him, no wonder I'm upset. And he's like, who cares?

[C]

Right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I don't know why I just went rogue there for a second, but I was thinking of all the four horsemen, and I'm like, okay, I've seen myself, myself show up riding on these horses, and I'm like, what horses has he ridden and on yet besides the Steadfast horse?

[A]

We need that one.

[C]

We need that one. So I'm thankful for it. All right, well, there you go, the four horsemen.

[A]

And let that also be a lesson of compatibility for you that, like. How should I say this? I think I've. We talked about this recently. It's not about people being good or bad or people being. They're too chaotic and they need to work on this and they need to. Whatever. It's finding partners that are compatible. Finding partners that he complements you.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So if I was married to somebody who's just like me, our relationship would be so chaotic. But Patrick brings me down. Why? I help ruffle him up a little bit. Like, I help him feel more deeply, and he helps me kind of, like, chill out sometimes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So compatibility, it's not. One person is messy and one person is.

[C]

Yeah. One final note about that, too, is if you're used to a little bit of chaos, which. I've talked about this before, when you meet someone that might be more compatible for you, sometimes it might seem a little boring.

[A]

Like, come on.

[C]

And you have to push past that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that could be a whole nother thing. But it's like, don't throw in the towel right away because I think I probably could have done that with him. Because your nervous system is used to something different.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so you get to just see if you're gonna alter and adapt and calm down and be like, oh, wait a second. Boring is actually awesome. Because it doesn't mean, like, he's boring. I'm talking about the feeling and the relationship feels.

[A]

And then an event.

[C]

Exciting.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. And you're, like, grateful for it. And you're like, wow, who knew? Okay, that's a wrap, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I hope you have the day you need to have. Bye.

[A]

Bye.

[C]

Isopure protein helps you focus on more of what matters, like feeling your best every day with great tasting nutrition. That's high protein and low carb, and it's never been simpler. I use Isopure unflavored protein every day, and I have already restocked three times since first trying it. Actually, I think I've bought it four times now because my daughter took a bag of it to her dad's house. With 25 grams of ultra filtered protein, you can add it to things like guacamole, pasta sauce, and more. It tastes great on everything. Enjoy more of what matters [e-mail] and get 20% off your order when you use code FEEL20 at checkout.

[B]

Hey, audiobook lovers, I'm Kal Penn. I'm Ed Helms. Ed. And I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Hearsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible, listen to earsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Irsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app. Today the day begins at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club at Boston Logan Airport. You get the clam chowder in San Diego, it's Tostadas New York. Espresso martini. It's 10am why not? It's the quiet before your next flight, the shower that resets your day, the menu that lets you know where you are. This is access to over 1300 airport lounges and every Sapphire Lounge by the Corner Club. And one card that gets you in Chase Sapphire Reserve, the most rewarding card. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.

[A]

This is an iHeart podcast.