AMY: The Single Biggest Predictor of Divorce

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bobby Bones Show – "AMY: The Single Biggest Predictor of Divorce"

Date: October 5, 2025
Hosts: Amy & Kat (Feeling Things segment)
Main Theme:
This episode of "The Bobby Bones Show," via the "Feeling Things with Amy and Kat" segment, dives deep into Dr. John Gottman’s research on relationships—focusing specifically on the Four Horsemen of divorce, with this installment spotlighting "contempt." Using real-life examples, clinical insights, and Gottman’s research, Amy and Kat explore why contempt is the most dangerous dynamic in couples and discuss practical antidotes for building healthier, more appreciative relationships.

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Overview

Amy and Kat continue their mini-series about Dr. John Gottman's "Four Horsemen," which are four negative communication patterns that predict the decline of relationships. In this episode, they focus on contempt, described by Gottman as the single biggest predictor of divorce. They discuss what contempt looks like in relationships, why it’s so damaging, and how couples can address and prevent it.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Contempt & the Four Horsemen

• Series Context: This episode is part of an ongoing series on Dr. John Gottman’s Four Horsemen (Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt, Stonewalling).
• Contempt Defined:
  • Feeling or showing that someone is beneath you; expressing scorn, disrespect, or mockery (19:07).
  • In relational terms: when respect disappears, and one partner repeatedly puts down the other.
• Why It's Critical:
  • According to research, contempt is the strongest predictor that a relationship will end (19:16).
  • It is even more corrosive than criticism—"If criticism is sticking the knife in somebody, contempt is twisting it" (19:16, Kat).

2. Gottman & the Science of Relationships

• Dr. Gottman is famous for his "Love Lab," where he observed and recorded couples’ interactions to identify negative patterns that predicted divorce (4:00).
• Gottman Institute’s resources are recommended for more information on these patterns (3:17).

3. What Contempt Looks and Sounds Like

• Communication Patterns:

  • Sarcasm and mocking used to hurt, not for humor or avoidance (20:32).
  • Intentionally making the partner feel small, pathetic, stupid, or unworthy.
  • Examples: "Why would you even think that?" or "Of course you did that" said with disdain (28:24-29:00).
  • Disrespectful mimicking, outright insults, comparisons to make the partner feel inferior (29:00).

• Impact:

  • Loss of emotional safety in the relationship; vulnerability and honesty are shut down (26:39).
  • Long-term contempt can even weaken the immune system, leading to more susceptibility to illness (10:09, 10:20, 10:25, 10:49).
  • "If you’re seeing contempt in the relationship, you're not too far gone because there is the antidote, but you're pretty far." (19:16, Kat).

4. Contempt vs. Narcissism and Personality Disorders

• Not all contemptuous partners are narcissists, but narcissistic traits often include contempt (6:08).
• Discussion of Nick Cannon’s public acknowledgment of narcissistic personality disorder and how genuine change is rare unless the person is deeply self-aware and willing to change (6:56–7:46).
• Narcissistic individuals may pretend to change for manipulative reasons (7:46).

5. Consequences for Victims

• Ongoing contempt leads partners to lose self-esteem, feel small, exhausted, and unable to defend themselves (22:11–22:22).
• Others may wonder why someone stays, but being subjected to contempt affects perception of self, making it hard to leave (23:12).
• Outside observers need to offer empathy, not judgment.

6. Contempt’s Relationship Dynamics

• Contempt can arise in both directions or develop over time due to unresolved resentment (6:08, 24:21).
• Charm and affection may still appear intermittently but can create confusion and reinforce unhealthy cycles (24:21, 24:25, 24:30).

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Memorable Quotes & Standout Moments

• Kat on Contempt’s Severity:
  "If criticism is like sticking the knife in somebody, contempt is twisting it. It’s taking it a step farther." (19:16)
• Amy’s Reaction:
  “I'm just thinking of people that might be in this situation and how small you must feel…how exhausting. And then that circles back to the illness thing." (22:02)
• Kat on Safety:
  "Once you get there, the safety is lost. So without safety in a relationship, it's essentially poisoned." (26:39)
• On the Antidote:
  "The Gottmans are really…trying to help you remember why you really are in the relationship with this person." (36:59)
• Practicality Check:
  "We can’t change that…So what you do is you just try to balance it out by saying more positive things more often." (34:30)
• Amy's Real-Life Example of Appreciation:
  “My boyfriend…just kind of like massaged my shoulder and my neck a little bit while we were driving down the road. I’ve thought about that multiple times since then. And that was such a simple act. So easy. No money, free. Felt what I felt cared for." (39:51)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:13 – Amy & Kat introduce the Four Horsemen series and focus on contempt.
• 03:12-04:03 – Kat explains Gottman’s research and Love Lab.
• 06:08 – Discussion: Can contempt arise in both partners?
• 10:09-10:49 – Contempt and its effect on the immune system.
• 19:07-19:16 – Defining contempt; introducing its role in divorce.
• 20:32-22:02 – What contempt sounds like in a relationship.
• 24:21-24:30 – The cycle of contempt interspersed with moments of affection.
• 26:39-27:48 – The importance of emotional safety and what it looks like.
• 28:24-29:46 – Concrete examples of contemptuous phrases and behaviors.
• 30:21 – Introduction to the antidote: appreciation and respect.
• 33:49-34:30 – Five-to-one ratio explained: Five positive interactions to every one negative.
• 36:33-37:47 – Clarifying the use of the five-to-one ratio and its true purpose.
• 38:15-42:16 – Importance of "small things often" and sharing positives.

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The Antidote to Contempt: Appreciation & Respect

• Five-to-One Ratio:
  “For every bad experience or negative encounter you have in your relationship, you need five positives to make up for it.” (33:49, Amy)
  • Because we’re wired to cling to negative comments, it takes an intentional effort to notice and vocalize the positive.
• Small Things Often:
  • Pay attention to and affirm the everyday acts of kindness and connection (38:15–41:32).
  • Example: Complimenting ordinary acts, expressing gratitude for daily gestures, noticing and expressing what you value.
• Practice:
  • Integrate rituals of appreciation into daily or weekly relationship routines.
  • With kids or partners, focus on affirmations and expressing care more often, even for small things (42:16–44:44).
  • Prompt: What small act made you feel cared for today?

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Practical Takeaways

• If you notice contempt in your relationship:
  • Take it seriously; long-term contempt erodes emotional safety and well-being.
  • Seek ways to replace contemptuous communication with appreciation and respect.
• For concerned friends/family:
  • Offer support and empathy if you believe someone is in a contemptuous relationship, recognizing how difficult it is to leave.
• Rebuilding the Relationship:
  • Focus on remembering positive experiences and the root reasons for being together.
  • Practice gratitude and positive affirmation not just when things are bad, but as a regular part of daily life.

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Next Week

The mini-series continues with the final Horseman: Stonewalling.

“We hope you have the day you need to have.” (45:23, Amy & Kat)

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For further reading:
Visit The Gottman Institute’s website for more resources and articles on the Four Horsemen, contempt, and healthy relationship practices.

Transcript

[Kat]

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[Amy]

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[Amy]

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[Amy]

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[Kat]

Just want some, maybe a cat got.

[Amy]

You covered like a num brother.

[Kat]

Ladies and fellas, we just follow in.

[Amy]

The spirit where it tell us.

[Kat]

From the real Stu to the chill.

[Amy]

Stuff and the in between.

[Kat]

Sometimes the best thing you can do.

[Amy]

Is just stop and feel things.

[Kat]

This is Feeling Things with Amy and Kat.

[Amy]

Happy Tuesday. Welcome to Feeling Things. I'm Amy. And I'm Kat and we are continuing our series on the Four Horsemen from Dr. John Gottman. And today's is a doozy. We finally hit the one that will just send your relationship down the drain.

[Kat]

Down the toilet, right?

[Amy]

Like a slow flush. And then one day you're just like oh wow.

[Kat]

I think the criticism Is like the slow flush. This is the.

[Amy]

Well, but how fast? I mean, you might live with it for a little bit. Oh, this is like.

[Kat]

But I'm just like. It's like jarring. It's like you feel it.

[Amy]

I saw if you stay in this one, you get sick more. I told Kat I didn't read in too much on this one because we have a doc where we build everything. But Kat is the therapist, so she's delivering this information to us. And this is something that you probably go over with clients and stuff or recommend to them or recommend that they do more research themselves. Because he has a book, right?

[Kat]

He has a lot of books, but he also.

[Amy]

I mean, but is it specifically for this or does he mention this in.

[Kat]

This is just in his, like, research. Like information that you can find. If anybody wants to know more and doesn't want to read a book. If you go to the Gottman Institute's website, they have a blog, they have tons of articles. They probably have 10 articles just on contempt, which is what we're talking about today, or just on the Four Horsemen. So if you are interested or you just want to read more, go there. That's a real. That's a better place than just Googling or going on Wikipedia to learn. Because it's all coming from his research. It's things that the Gottmans have put on there and people that work for them.

[Amy]

Yeah. And like by research, he was doing very intense things with couples, like some even in his own home. Right. Or did I make that up?

[Kat]

He might have been doing that, like.

[Amy]

Therapy, like recording then.

[Kat]

So he had the love lab. Is that what you're talking about?

[Amy]

Okay, so his own home, his lab, whatever. But he was monitoring people, like filming them and watching their interactions.

[Kat]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

[Amy]

And like seeing how they were communicating also.

[Kat]

I didn't think about this, but if you, if you do a training with the Gottman Institute, you'll get to see some of the recordings of therapy sessions. And sometimes you'll see them in like the waiting room and stuff like that and they'll talk you through those things. Have you ever watched couples therapy?

[Amy]

No.

[Kat]

Okay. It's. I want to say I don't know what streaming service is on. It's not like a Netflix. It might be HBO or something.

[Amy]

I'll figure it out.

[Kat]

Less popular. But it's worth. If they have a 30 day trial, it's worth just doing that to watch this show.

[Amy]

Paramount plus and Hulu.

[Kat]

Oh, okay, Hulu. So it, it is the, the therapist on there. His name is Dr. Orna, and she is incredible. When I watch it, it feels like continuing education, but also it's entertaining. It's a TV show. And I'm very weary of therapy entertainment because I'm like, who would sign up to do therapy on a TV show?

[Amy]

So who would? That's a good question.

[Kat]

I haven't actually done research on figuring the answer to that, but my assumption is they're getting free therapy. And I'm sure she's a pretty penny.

[Amy]

Right. So I'm willing to share all of my things with the world in exchange.

[Kat]

For this therapy because maybe it will save my marriage or save my relationship. And they do a great job of having all different kinds of relationships on there. All different types of people, all different types of religions. Like, it kind of does kind of check every box. But if you read about and learn about these four horsemen and then you watch the show, it would be a fun exercise for somebody to go in and look at. Like, when you see each one and there are some. When you watch the ones and you're like, that's contempt even. I'm like, there's no way. And part of me is like, I don't want this couple to make it because they are both hurting each other so often and so harshly.

[Amy]

Do you think two contempt people end up together or one is the contempt and then the other person turns contempt?

[Kat]

Both. I don't think it's just like you married a contemptuous person. I think that a lot of times what happens in relationships is things build and build and build, and then you start building this resentment and then you become contemptuous towards your partner. Now, if you're married to somebody who is. Has a lot of traits of narcissism or is diagnosed as a narcissist, then they're probably going to be contemptuous at times. But I don't think it's just like you are this person most of the time.

[Amy]

You know Nick Cannon.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Mariah Carey's.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Baby daddy. And then a lot of other.

[Kat]

Yeah, baby daddy's.

[Amy]

Mama's. Yeah. He was the baby daddy to a lot of babies.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Not just Mariah Carey, but I didn't know if you knew that he was recently on the Breakfast Club and he shared with them that he was diagnosed with in pd.

[Kat]

No way.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

I saw something somewhere that he said, and maybe it was from there. He said he wasn't treating people very well. So maybe he's trying to get.

[Amy]

Yeah, I mean, that was a couple of years ago. That, you know, he did all the tests, and it's a lot of questions and intense therapy and filling out questionnaires and whatnot. That he realized he had narcissistic personality disorder, and that so many times he thought that's just the way things were, but he's realized he can't be that way. So he's doing the work to try not to be that way. And I'm like, wow, this just seems like the opposite of everything we hear now. I've heard from experts that there is a possibility that there can be work done, but that person has to be open to it. And most narcissists aren't gonna be open to testing for it.

[Kat]

Yes, that's true. And I also was going to say, and this is me just saying this, that this can also happen. Somebody who's diagnosed with that personality disorder can also present. Like, they are this person who's like, oh, my gosh, I don't want to be this way. I'm going to change this. That's a way to manipulate people, too. But they really have no intention of doing that. They're like, yeah, they get ahead of it. Does that make sense, that Cross. They're very good actors.

[Amy]

Not so much with him, I guess, but I guess I thought that if. Because they tend to be very manipulative and good at it, that why wouldn't they just. With all this information now that we have about narcissism and how it's everywhere, you kind of, like, see people saying certain things, and you're like, well, if I just don't say that or act this way, then I either will not be perceived as narcissist or I kind of know the right thing to say now. And then people will see me in a different way. Yeah, that crossed my mind.

[Kat]

Yeah. There's a specific couple on one of the seasons where you can have couples therapy. Yes. Where you can tell that there's some narcissism afloat. And the way that the Dr. Orna handles it is, like, so beautiful, where you're not just, like, calling somebody out, but she's just kind of. She was trying to understand this person. And he kept being like, no, no, no, no. Like, she wouldn't allow her to. Like, she probably was actually getting it right. But he kept always having an excuse for something, even if she was, like, parroting back what he said. And so she just said to him, it feels like it's really hard to get things right for you with you. Is that true? And he was like, what Are you talking about. She's like, well, it just feels like I'm trying to understand you, and it feels really hard for me to understand you. Do you feel that? Do you feel like it's hard for people to understand you? And you can. In fact, I'm gonna find the season and come back and tell you guys, because it was such a. Like, a caring, empathetic view of how it looks like to be in relationship with these people. And you have so much empathy for the partner, too. And also, like, hello. Yeah, you deserve better than this.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

You were gonna say what you saw in the dock? We trailed off.

[Amy]

Oh, no. Just, like, under contempt. Like I told you, I just went in to put my.

[Kat]

It's a funny story, though.

[Amy]

I just went in to put my feeling of the day, and I was like, I really didn't read much about it. I. But what's crazy to me is that if someone's in relation in a contemptuous relationship, they are more susceptible to illness. Like, they get sick more because their weakened immune system. And then you're like, well, that's at the top of the dock. And I was like, yeah, it's the first thing.

[Kat]

Yeah. Which is. That's funny.

[Amy]

Well, and it's also in funk. It's like, four times thicker than I just stood up.

[Kat]

I just thought that was crazy, too. And it's. Yeah, your immune system gets weakened because, I mean, that speaks to how our mental health affects the wholeness of our health. If I'm constantly being beaten down or having to feel like I have to defend myself all the time, I don't feel safe in my. My closest relationship. Your body's going to take that on, and then you're not going to be able to fight off actual things like the flu.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Wild.

[Amy]

It is crazy. I'm gonna do the feeling of the day before we get into contempt.

[Kat]

I would love to.

[Amy]

I'm sad. I know it doesn't seem sad sad, but I'm sad because my boyfriend left for Paris today without me.

[Kat]

Does he know that's, like, the one place you want to go?

[Amy]

It's on my list. It's on my bucket list. Yes. And of course, I could go with him if I didn't have work. I mean, he would be working, but I could still. And apparently then when he left today, because he came by to get a folding bag, and he was like, I think my hotel room looks out to the Eiffel Tower. And I was like, cool, stop. And he's like, I can bring you a sweatshirt. And I was like, okay, it's the same thing. Yeah, I think I can get that.

[Kat]

Here in the mall.

[Amy]

But the sad is giving me information though. Like, I'm sad that I can't be there, but also I'm thankful for my job. So it's like, give, take, and then I guess it's good that I'm sad because, like, I care about my relationship, you know, like, if I wasn't sad, like he's going to experience something. Like I want to experience that with him.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

And like, I don't get to do that. Maybe we will one day. So also, like, I'm sad, but then hopeful that maybe one day we'll take our own trip to Paris. And then the sad is information though, because like, what if I was like, eh, neutral. Like, I don't care. You're leaving for a week. I'm good.

[Kat]

Well, you. Yeah, you would feel that about any trip, right? Not just Paris. It's just an extra.

[Amy]

It's extra cuz it's like where you want to go.

[Kat]

I really want to ask a hypothetical question, but if it feels weird, just let me know.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

If you were to one day go on a honeymoon with anybody, doesn't have to be with your boyfriend, if you got to make that decision on your own, where do you think you would go?

[Amy]

Good.

[Kat]

Would you go to Paris? Or do you think you would do.

[Amy]

I mean, maybe, but it's feeling a little cliche for honeymoon.

[Kat]

Yeah, but that's okay.

[Amy]

Maybe it's just because I just watched the Summer I Turned Pretty and. Cut that out. Cut that out. Just beep it.

[Kat]

Wait, did they ruin it? I don't watch that.

[Amy]

I know, but everybody's watching it. It's all the rage. I can't believe you're not. No, you can't. I cannot say. We cannot keep. We're gonna just be. He just beeped it. We're still talking. Okay, Houston just put a beep over what I said the coast of Spain. Maybe I would go. I've always wanted to go to Spain.

[Kat]

Okay. That felt like you just like picked a random thing.

[Amy]

No, no, I've wanted to go to.

[Kat]

Spain, like, well, because my question is, are you the type of person who wants on a honeymoon to just have like a relaxing, like, time, or do you want to go on like a trip and like, see things and experience parts of the world? It could be both.

[Amy]

I want to be a little bit. I want to relax and experience a little bit. No, I do not need to be hitting up every museum and all the land. No. So that. That answers it. We're not going to Paris. Because I do want to go to, like, the Louvre. Like, that would be great. And see certain sites. And I just don't think I want to be doing that on my honeymoon.

[Kat]

That's how I felt. I was thinking about Hawaii, but I feel like if I go to Hawaii, I want to be doing activities the whole time and like, traveling different places. So we just went somewhere and I just laid down for a week.

[Amy]

See? Yeah. I could see myself like in some zero horizon pool somewhere off the coast of somewhere. You know, on a pool where there's like, no infinity. Is that not called a zero horizon pool?

[Kat]

It could be called both. There was an infinity pool where we went on our honeymoon. Okay.

[Amy]

A zero horizon pool, more commonly called an infinity pool. So I'm just part of the.

[Kat]

You're special.

[Amy]

Yeah. It also could be called by some people a vanishing edge pool.

[Kat]

Well, what's for the.

[Amy]

It creates the illusion that the water has no edge, appearing to fall into the surrounding landscape or horizon. That's me. Because I don't love the beach. Like, I don't love sand and salt water, but I like the sound of the ocean.

[Kat]

You know, some pools are saltwater pools.

[Amy]

I can deal with the saltwater pool. I don't want to be in the saltwater ocean with all animals. Creatures.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And the sand. So I can be in a pool. Correction. It's not so much the salt water as it is the creatures. Creatures in the sand. So, okay, take me to the coast of Spain, just to the hotel pool.

[Kat]

You could probably go to a really nice resort in Spain.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Or like a really nice resort in Greece. But then my. My thing is, like, if you go to a resort, you don't really know where you are if you're not going on, like, excursions. So save the Greece trip for when you go to explore. Okay. So shall we go to Contempt?

[Amy]

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[Kat]

Feel a little chaotic, so we're going.

[Amy]

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[Kat]

That's the human kind of help.

[Amy]

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[Kat]

So do you know what contempt means outside of this? Like outside of the Four Horsemen? I feel like I don't Use that word.

[Amy]

I don't really use that word. I hear it, like, in court.

[Kat]

Contempt of court. What is that?

[Amy]

Is it the same word?

[Kat]

Shannon, can you look that up? Because contempt essentially means, like, you believe that there something's below you.

[Amy]

Okay. A contempt of court is an act of disobedience or disrespect towards the judicial branch of the government or an interference with its orderly process. It's an offense against a court of justice or person whom the judicial functions of the sovereignty have been. Well, we just got a little complicated with our words there.

[Kat]

Well, that makes sense because that is aligned with.

[Amy]

Okay, well, so the. The exact definition, which you may have it.

[Kat]

You can read it.

[Amy]

Okay. The feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless or deserving. Scorn.

[Kat]

Oh, yeah.

[Amy]

Oh, yeah.

[Kat]

So that just is sad when you don't want your partner to feel that way about you, nor do you want to feel that way about your partner. And so that's why this is the one that I think is the biggest predictor that your relationship is not going to make it. If. If you're seeing contempt in the relationship, you're not too far gone because there is the antidote, but you're pretty far. You really don't want to get to this point. And contempt comes after criticism because it feels like. It almost feels like. It's like. If criticism is like sticking the knife in somebody, contempt is twisting it. It's taking it a step farther. You're not accidentally being mean to somebody. I think sometimes when we're criticizing people, we don't mean to, like, be mean. We're struggling with kind of expressing ourselves. This is like you're. You are showing this person that they are less than you. It includes in a relationship being disrespectful, like, just being disrespectful towards the person, which there's a lot of ways that can actually look. And mocking somebody using sarcasm. I know we talked about that with last week. This is not using sarcasm to be less vulnerable. It's using sarcasm to, like, make somebody feel bad. What do you think? I feel like you're like.

[Amy]

Well, because I'm just imagining, like, being in this relationship, and then I'm also evaluating my sarcasm in my relationship.

[Kat]

There is a fine line between sarcasm when we are avoiding vulnerability or when we are avoiding confrontation even.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Like making a joke, because there's fear somewhere around, like, really sharing how I'm feeling. Okay. This is sarcasm to, like, put somebody down. Imagine a bully in school. They're making Fun of other people in front of a group of people and they're being sarcastic, like, making fun of something you did to hurt you, like, with contempt.

[Amy]

Now I'm aligning it with, like, just like disgusting.

[Kat]

Yeah. There is probably disgust in that person because you have to kind of have a level of disgust towards this person to want to make them feel this way. When you love somebody and care about somebody and respect somebody, that's a huge part of this. The respect is gone. You're not going to want to do this to somebody. And if you did do this accidentally, you would feel guilt. Because if I respect somebody, I'm not going to want to also do this. I mean, there's like mimicking them, like, in a mean way. Sometimes Patrick will like, mimic the way I do something or a face that I make being playful. This is mimicking you to make fun of you, to make you hurt and wanting that person to know that they are less than. It's a huge part. You want that other person to feel bad. It's almost a way of gaining control of the situation. You look scared.

[Amy]

I'm just thinking of people that might be in this situation and how small you must feel if this is how your partner treats you, you know.

[Kat]

Yeah. When I.

[Amy]

Or like, how exhausting. And then that circles back to the illness thing of like. Yeah, you're so worn down.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

That like, no wonder you might get sick more.

[Kat]

Yeah. My fear is people that are in a relationship where one partner is very contemptuous of the other is that you do lose a huge part of your self esteem and self worth. So even the fighting back, you might not even be as defensive because you've kind of already been just like pushed down so far. I mean, if we see somebody doing this, and it's kind of my experience watching couples therapy, I'm like, in my head yelling at the TV screen, being like, leave this person. He is treating you terribly. They are not being kind to you. You deserve better. Like, in my head, I'm just like, how could you stay after hearing this? And that person's experience that's in it, they're hearing through the lens of, well, this is who I am now. Like, I am this. I might not feel like I deserve better.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

So this is more. So if you're seeing somebody that you love in a relationship like this and you're just wanting to yell at them and say like, leave them. Or even if you're a helping professional and you want to be like, leave them. Or you're getting frustrated with Somebody from our perspective, it looks and feels very different than the person who's in that relationship. And so it's very helpful to offer extra grace and care and empathy to that person versus judge them for staying in a relationship like that. Obviously if you have a strong self esteem and self worth, you're not going to stay in a relationship like that if you have the ability to leave.

[Amy]

Is the person, do you think? I mean, I'm sure it's case by case but like when the contempt shows up or that contemptuous behavior, but similar to a narcissist, which I'm not saying just because you're contemptuous in a relationship doesn't mean you're a narcissist. Right. But like narcissists have charming sides and they have like their love bombing face and they can be very charismatic. Like when you're in a contemptuous relationship, does that partner still offer like lovey awesome moments?

[Kat]

I think it depends. I think you can be in a relationship where that does happen and that's even more confusing.

[Amy]

Right. Well, I was thinking like it sucks you back in and you're like, oh, look how they are. And like this is just.

[Kat]

Well, and I think when you're in a relationship like that, it probably didn't start that way. So if you're struggling with it, a lot of times you're having that rosy retrospect where you're looking back and you're remembering the good times and not seeing the stuff that might outweigh those good times. So there's not one way this looks. So to answer that question, yes and not always, it depends. Right? And like I said earlier, this usually happens when a couple has the ability to recover from this. It usually did not start that way and it usually builds out of a continuation of not being able to share your feelings and talk about things. And so you build these feelings up and the person who's contemptuous might have created a story in their head where you are what they are saying because they have not expressed their needs to you. And so they keep getting angry or keep getting frustrated or keep getting, I mean to use a very low stakes example, like imagine your job was to take out the trash and you never did it. And 10 years go by and you, you still have not done it, but I have not asked you to do it or reminded you. I'm just resenting, resenting, resenting you for 10 years because you can't take the trash out. So I'm building that story up. I don't think that scenario Happens. But you know what I mean.

[Amy]

Do you have, like, examples of things that they might say?

[Kat]

Yeah, I have ways this sounds. And before I get to that, I want to make sure I say this, that one of the biggest issues with contempt, I might have said this already is once you get there, the safety is lost. So without safety in a relationship, it's essentially poisoned. If there's no safety in a relationship, you're not going to come to somebody and be vulnerable. Right. And you're going to hide and you're going to run away from those conversations, conversations that really need to be happening. And even therapy can be scary because therapy is very vulnerable. And so that's one thing that if you start to see this, take it seriously from the very beginning, because the more this builds, the less safety you have, and then you're going to have less opportunity to have the relationship you really want.

[Amy]

Can you clarify safety? Because as, like, I'm hearing it as layman's person over here. Like, I'm thinking, like, are you not talking about physical safety? You're talking about just, like, emotional safety?

[Kat]

There's no emotional.

[Amy]

You can't be vulnerable with this person anymore.

[Kat]

Yes. Because in. When you have relational safety within a person, like, I feel very emotionally safe with you. Earlier today, I walked in and I was not my best self. I knew that I could do that in this space because I know that there is not judgment and that our relationship can still be good even if we have moments where we're not our best. I cannot have it all together. Or I can, like, let true parts of, like, my shadow side that I don't really want everybody to see come out and there won't be this. You won't use that against me. Right, Right. That's also why when we have disagreements, we can talk to each other about them or if we're frustrated with each other. Like, I know if I do something that upsets you. Well, I believe this. If I do, mostly because it's happened. For if I do something that upsets you, I feel safe knowing that you will come to me. Because I think you also know that I will be able to hear you.

[Amy]

Yeah. Vice versa. Yes. Because we have safety in our relationship. Okay. I just wanted to clarify.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

While that could be an issue for some people, specifically, what you're talking about, when safety is lost, when this shows up is the real emotional safety.

[Kat]

But I would also say if there's physical abuse happening in a relationship, there probably is contempt there as well. Yes.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

They're not like, Mutually exclusive. Okay, so what this can sound like. So I'm just going to give you some phrases that. Like this. Somebody who's being contemptuous. This is. Could be what they say, calling somebody pathetic. Like, you're so pathetic. They're.

[Amy]

I just feel like they have. Someone has to be drunk to say this or something. But, yeah, I'm wrong. But you would think, like, not out of their mind. Like some. You're telling me somebody sober could say that just says to someone, you're pathetic.

[Kat]

And that's very outright. Like, you could even be more kind of insidious with this. And it sound more like, why would you ever think that? Like, if somebody's messed something up, or let's say somebody missed something on a calendar, it's not that hard to write things down. Your calendar. But of course you did that. Yeah, of course that happened to you, you know.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Putting somebody down. If somebody's expressing they had a hard day, like, the contempt could sound like, oh, you think you've had a rough day? Try living in my life for an hour. You would never last, like, making like you're so small and weak. So they're saying you're weak without saying you're weak in that moment where that person can also just say, you're pathetic. You're so selfish. You should be ashamed of yourself. Like, sharing with somebody that, like, you should be ashamed of yourself versus, like, oh, how are you holding up with that? If we're feeling shame? Like, it's okay to feel shame and talk about that with your partner. And that's also saying, like, it's not okay to mess up because if. If you messed up and you forgot something, I'm not coming at you and saying, you should be ashamed of yourself. That's so embarrassing.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

I'm like, oh, that sucks. I'm so sorry. Contempt sounds jarring. Because it is.

[Amy]

It is. Yeah. I guess you're right. You're like, this should be jarring.

[Kat]

Yeah. And if the other part with this too, and that can be really tough from the recipient, is when you confront them about that, when they're like, well, that was mean, they can use phrases like, I'm just telling you how. How it is. Well, if you can't handle the truth, then don't ask those kinds of things where it sounds like they're doing almost like, you a favor or it's your fault. So good times, the good news.

[Amy]

Yeah, I want the antidote. There's that.

[Kat]

There is an antidote, and that's with everything. So if you haven't listened to the other two episodes of the Four Horsemen. They offer an antidote for each of the Horsemen. This one is actually, I think, just something we should be doing in general in our all of our relationships and just keeping in mind with all of our relationships, it's just building a culture of appreciation and respect. And then there's two ways to like two tips to do this. There's probably way more, but I'm going to give you two.

[Amy]

We've been made to believe that saying yes is a good thing, but I've realized there's a big difference between doing it intentionally and doing it unintentionally. Isopure protein helps you focus on more of what matters. Like feeling your best every day with great tasting nutrition. That's high protein and also low carb if you need that. Isopure fits seamlessly into your lifestyle and that's why I've added it to my daily routine. I use Isopure unflavored protein in recipes like pasta sauce and guacamole during the week. With 25 grams of ultra filtered protein and 0 carbs plus 20 vitamins and minerals, you can boost nearly any recipe without changing the taste of your favorite foods. I've already restocked four times because I add the Isopure unflavored to everything. You can try the Isopure vanilla to blend 25 grams of protein into your smoothies or your oatmeal. Or check out Isopure Clear protein water with 15 grams of protein, which supports hydration with electrolytes and a light berry flavor. Enjoy more of what matters [e-mail] and get 20% off your order when you use code feeltween20 at checkout.

[Kat]

@ Walgreens, we know it's hard to.

[Amy]

Pay attention to important flu information.

[Kat]

What does keep your attention?

[Amy]

Sports commentary Here we are, fourth quarter of the year. The clock's winding down and flu season starting up. So don't get caught off guard. Make your move to Walgreens and get that flu shot. They even know which other vaccines you may need and when you need them. That's how you stay in the game. So walk in or schedule an appointment today to get up to date on all your vaccines.

[Kat]

That's the human kind of help.

[Amy]

Walgreens vaccines subject to availability, state, age and health related restrictions may apply. Throughout the 1950s and 60s, Bobby Kennedy.

[Kat]

And Teamsters President Jimmy Hoffa were engaged in a blood feud.

[Amy]

Bobby Kennedy, we have this conception of him as this Sainted liberal hero. And it does not align with any look at his record that I'm aware of.

[Kat]

As a Senator and later JFK's Attorney General, Bobby wanted to take down the mob, starting with Hoffa.

[Amy]

Like, no one gives a about Bobby, right? So this is Bobby trying to get the world to care about him, which I think explains all this passion and anger going into this, even though it's all kind of ineptly handled.

[Kat]

I'm George Severis. I'm Lyra Smith.

[Amy]

On United States of Kennedy, we dive.

[Kat]

Into the hidden stories fueling our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty.

[Amy]

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast.

[Kat]

Or wherever you get your podcast. So the first one is just knowing that There is a 5 to 1 ratio. Did you know this ratio?

[Amy]

I know this from. Just. From Gottman as well.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

The for every bad experience or negative encounter you have in your relationship, you need five positives to make up for it. Is that it?

[Kat]

Yeah. Yes. Good job. And that's. That comes from their research is like we hold on to a negative comment or experience five times more than the positive, and we can use that towards anything. Like, think about how if one person makes a negative comment about what you look like, that holds way more weight than if somebody says something positive about what you look like. We just receive feedback differently, positive and negative. I really wish we could find a solution for that.

[Amy]

Well, I was reading something the other day, I cannot remember where, so I'm going to paraphrase it, but back when we were in survival mode, like, I don't know, cavemen type days, like negative experiences helped keep us alive. So we remembered those more than a positive. Because if you remember something that's a threat or negative, then you know how to better be ready.

[Kat]

Yeah, that's probably part of it. I also think that confirmation bias is there too. So if we have insecurities, we look for evidence to prove that those things are like the little critic inside of our head is looking for feedback to hold on to more than we're looking for evidence against. So I think there's probably a lot of things at play, including what you just said, that add to why we hold on to these things heavier. So because we can't change that, we can't just snap our fingers and carry the positive stuff more. What you do is you just try to balance it out by saying more positive things more often. And also part of this is noting those positive experiences. So for whatever reason, as well, we could have 20 things happen that go great throughout our Day, but we just think of them as normal. That one negative thing we're gonna clock. Right. But we don't clock the positives as much. So part of this exercise, I think, is going back through your day almost like how you do, like, gratitude journaling. You don't notice how much regret, how much gratitude you have until you actually pay attention to it and write it down. You don't notice how many positive things usually happen unless you're paying attention to them.

[Amy]

Yeah. So when it comes to contentious relationship, how does the five to one work? Like, the person that, like, say. I say to you, we're having an argument or something, and for whatever reason, I'm like, you're acting like a child. That's negative. So, like, then I realized, oh, wow, I said that to you. Now I need. Well, to give you some positive experiences.

[Kat]

No, let me back up, because that's. This is confusing.

[Amy]

This is trying to make it confusing.

[Kat]

No, no, this is. I think that I'm glad you pointed this out, because I'm sure other people are thinking this. This is not.

[Amy]

Are you saying I'm stupid? I'm just kidding. I'm being contemptuous to myself.

[Kat]

Hold on a second. This is not to balance out the contemptuous behavior. Yes. We're trying to get rid of that. When you can't balance out contemptuous behavior, you don't want to be in that.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

Because also, that goes back to your point of. You go through those, like, the cycle of them being really charming and kind, and then they're mean. You never want to normalize the contemptuous behavior. This is because a lot of times you become contemptuous because you've forgotten what you really care about. These people. Like, what you like about these people. This happens, like, usually erodes over time. And so we're trying. The Gottmans are really in this, trying to peel back and help you remember why you really are in the relationship with this person. Because there's a reason you guys were together. We're trying to drew you to them. Yeah. So the more I can compliment these people or the more I can remind myself that this good experience happened or something like that, the more I'm taken back to the good memories and the good feelings I have towards this person versus the negative.

[Amy]

Oh, okay. Thank you for clarifying. Yeah, this makes sense, because I was like, wow, the contemptuous person's gonna have to realize they said something rude and then say five nice things after. But I know it's not as simple as that, so thank you clarifying that this is more so. Yeah. Getting back to the root of what first drew you to this person. And there. And there's probably a lot of things there, but you don't focus on them because you just focus on the ones that. The things that are annoying you.

[Kat]

Yeah. Yeah. We can all look at moments in our life where we're doing that, for sure. And the other tip with this antidote is just small things often. So it kind of feeds off of that is to note with your partner, small things because we hold on to big things, especially positive. Like, we remember when they bought us flowers or when they planned this trip or when they did this thing that's like, big and maybe not normal versus small things often. Can you point out the everyday things you like about somebody or the everyday things that made you feel appreciated or that you had fun with or something like that? It can be as simple as, like, notice that you. You love waking up next to your partner or.

[Amy]

My boyfriend and I were driving the other day, and I just told him this today because we were on the phone this afternoon and I think we were talking about, like, our relationship, how it's evolved. Because some conversation at dinner the other night. Other night with another couple and, like, courting and, you know, guys paying for things. And then like, when does the girl start sort of paying? And I don't know. I'm just giving you a little bit of the backstory. Like, we were just talking about. Yeah. Like, or if you're going on a trip, like, who pays for what? And one of the persons there was of the mindset that, like, the guy should just always pay for everything. Like, it didn't matter. And my boyfriend and I didn't necessarily agree with that, but in the early dating, like, for dinner and stuff, it is nice for me. And even him, like, he would want to pay. He's like, I don't. I would never, like, first or second date be like, you know. But some people are just different.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

It's not like we're doing a Spiderman.

[Kat]

Some people would actually be offended by that.

[Amy]

Yeah. Like, they want to pay, like, or they want to go Dutch. Or the women maybe want to feel independent and feel.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

So I'm not saying how we do it is right. But we are happen to be in alignment on that. And so somehow the conversation evolved into, like, little things that we do to show each other. Like, and I was like, you know, the other day we were in the car and he was driving, and then he had one hand on the wheel, and then he Came over to my neck with his other hand and just kind of like massage my shoulder and my neck a little bit while we were driving down the road. And I was like, I've thought about that multiple times since then. And that was such a simple act. So easy. No money, free. Felt what I felt cared for. Just like how they're trying to say women feel cared for if the guy's paying for the meal. Well, I felt cared for just with the random shoulder massage while driving down the road. Like something about that I loved and I wanted to make sure that I express that so that he'll do it more.

[Kat]

Yeah. And I think often we. We assume that men don't need as much affirmation as we do or as women do. And they do. Like, men want to be cared for too, and want to be appreciated and want to be. Want to feel secure as well. Like, they don't just walk around having all the confidence in the world all the time. I think they feel pressured to do that or feel that. So that makes a big difference. Like letting him know that you felt good by such a small, tiny thing that he did probably felt just as good as the thing that he did to you. That makes sense.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

So there you have it. Yeah. Yes. Small things often. And that's something that you can just randomly do or you can do. Yeah, SEO.

[Amy]

SEO.

[Kat]

Or you can. That can be a ritual you guys do as an exercise. If you're helping your date, your relationship back on track is like weekly do a check in and like talk about a couple things. Or you could do this nightly, but that just seems like a lot. A couple things that maybe that person didn't know that they did that you really appreciated or something new that you learned that you loved about them. Like, I didn't think that I would love watching my husband watch sports, but sometimes it's really cute to watch him get so excited about something. Then I start appreciating that.

[Amy]

Yeah, I like that. Makes me think of the three A's with my kids. The asking, affirming, and. Well, let's see how they're a.

[Kat]

Ask, affirm. Well, I. When I was taught it was regrets, requests, and affirmations. So I'm was one of them.

[Amy]

There was like, sorry, no, ask. There was like asking for something you need or want. But there's. Then there was also, is there anything I need to ask for forgiveness or like that I've done that I need to know about? And then there's affirming. But it wasn't ask Ask, Affirm. So what was the other A? It's like, ask. Why is my brain doing this right now? Acknowledge. No, ask, ask and affirm. What are some other A's? Appreciation. Oh, well, my brain can't think of it right now.

[Kat]

We'll get to it.

[Amy]

Dang, it's good. But that was what my therapist with my kids, they were saying, do it as a nightly check in which for us as a family, did get overwhelming. So we kind of stopped. But it served. It was an appreciation for a season. So affirm. No, because I feel like it's an acknowledge. Maybe. Maybe it could be acknowledge.

[Kat]

Because when we do regrets, requests, and affirmations, it's that acknowledging could be the regret.

[Amy]

Yeah, it works for now. Okay, we'll take it. Because it starts with an A and it fits.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

But really, it is just about also checking in. Checking in, but without a laundry list. So while every night seem overwhelming, but you only got one ask or one. You can be like, well, you did all of these things, and I need you to feel bad about them all. Or I need for my kids, that's when they can say, hey, I'm out of these socks. Like, they can make a note. But you only ask for one thing per.

[Kat]

Well, I would say with. If you're trying to pull yourself out of a contemptuous relationship to just stick with the affirmations for a little bit.

[Amy]

Yeah, that's probably.

[Kat]

But once you graduate, then you can do the other things, because not acknowledging those other things is what gets you to be contemptuous, too.

[Amy]

And we can't even remember what the other things are. So just affirm, affirm, affirm, affirm.

[Kat]

The three A's.

[Amy]

Yeah. Keep it simple. Cool.

[Kat]

Kiss.

[Amy]

Yeah. Keep it simple.

[Kat]

Silly.

[Amy]

Silly. Because we don't want to say stupid.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Because that sounds contemptuous.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Okay, part three. That's a wrap. So next week we will be doing part four, which is stonewalling.

[Kat]

Stonewalling. Yeah. Secret. Just, like, comes in from out of nowhere. What? Stonewalling. I just feel like it shows up out of nowhere.

[Amy]

I know of stonewalling.

[Kat]

It's quiet.

[Amy]

Okay. I know of stonewalling. Like, from what I've seen from narcissist type stuff.

[Kat]

Yeah, I really meant, like, it's quiet because it's literally.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

What it is.

[Amy]

Stonewalling. Shutting.

[Kat]

Shutting down.

[Amy]

Off.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Yeah. All right. Well, we hope you have the day.

[Kat]

You need to have.

[Amy]

Bye. Bye. Isopure protein helps you focus on more of what matters, like feeling your best every day with great tasting nutrition that's high protein and low carb. It's never been simpler. I use isopure unflavored protein every day and I have already restocked three times since first trying it. Actually, I think I've bought it four times now because my daughter took a bag of it to her dad's house with 25 grams of ultra filtered protein and you can add it to things like guacamole, pasta sauce and more. It tastes great on everything. Enjoy more of what matters [e-mail] and get 20% off your order when you use code FEEL20 at checkout.

[Kat]

Teamsters President Jimmy Hoffa once promised to break both of Bobby Kennedy's arms. Bobby JFK's attorney general wanted to take down the mob, starting with Hoffa.

[Amy]

Like no one gives a about Bobby, right? So this is Bobby trying to get the world to care about him, which I think explains all this passion and anger going into this, even though it's all kind of ineptly handled. On United States of Kennedy we dive into the hidden stories fueling our cultural.

[Kat]

Fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.

[Amy]

Or wherever you get your podcast.

[Kat]

It may look different, but Native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way it turned into.

[Amy]

This full fledged award winning comic shop.

[Kat]

That's Dr. Lee Francis IV who opened the first native comic book shop. Explore his story along with many other Native stories on the show Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn bridges on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I heart podcast.