← The Bobby Bones Show
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- [00:00]
Amy Brown
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
Bobby Bones
Guaranteed Human I'm Bobby Bones from the Bobby Bones Show. Whether you're a seasoned small business owner or if you're just thinking about getting started, check out season four of Mind the Business small business success stories from iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio and Intuit QuickBooks. In this latest season, hosts Austin Hankwitz and Janice Torres are talking to self starters about the ins and outs of entrepreneurship and how QuickBooks helps you get more done in less time. You won't want to miss it. Listen to Mind the Business Small Business Success Stories on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Make every day feel epic in the all new Hyundai Palisade Hybrid the Palisade Hybrid is packed full of features, cutting edge tech and up to an EPA estimated 619 miles of range on select trims and class leading interior space. Seating configurations for 78 passengers with available third row power seats that recline available H track all wheel drive so you can be ready to go anywhere in style. Learn more about the Hyundai Palisade@HyundaiUSA.com Call 562-314-4603 for complete details. Life moves fast at American Military University. They're ready to help you keep up. AMU's flexible, affordable online programs in cybersecurity, IT, space studies and more are designed for service members, veterans and their families. AMU provides the support you need to take the next step wherever life takes you. American Military University Built for what's next. Learn more at AMU apus Edu.
- [01:42]
Amy Brown
Friday Kick off the Winter Olympics in style with the Opening Ceremony from Italy featuring a special performance by by Mariah Carey. Celebrate the greatest athletes from around the globe as they come together to go for gold. Lipsy for Sensational the Opening Ceremony of the Winter Olympics.
- [02:02]
Dan Harris
Ilia Malin redefining the sport Friday at.
- [02:06]
Amy Brown
8 Eastern, 7 Central on NBC and Peacock. It takes 30 days to form a habit and 90 days to make it stick. Lucky for you, Audible and I have teamed up to bring you the Sound reset challenge, a four week series designed to help you unlock your 2026 goals, projects and resolutions, all brought to you by Audible. Audible's Wellbeing collection has everything to inspire and support you in every step of your well being journey. I'm Amy Brown, co host on the Bobbi Bones show and today I'm joined by Dan Harris who is an Emmy Award winning journalist, former ABC News anchor and now a practicing teacher of meditation and mindfulness. Nearly 12 years ago in 2014, Dan released his book, 10% Happier, an autobiographical tale of the spiritual, scientific and skeptical odyssey that led him through many portals of the self help world to his own mindfulness practice. The book was a bestseller and did a lot to bring mindfulness to the mainstream. Today, Dan is here to share pertinent insights from his journey. And then we're going to challenge you, the listeners, to a four week course for getting out of your own way and on your way to reaching your goals. Listen as we challenge you to turn your resolutions into reality. All right, so Dan, I listened to 10% happier on audible and I gotta say, one of my favorite little perks of that was the meditations at the end. And I did the walking meditation yesterday.
- [03:37]
Dan Harris
Great, good on you. How'd it go?
- [03:39]
Amy Brown
It went really well. I hadn't done a walking meditation in several months, but I was like, oh, this is here at the end. I might as well do it. And I gotta say, walking meditations are my favorite kind. But there is something you talk about in the book that was really interesting to me with the brain scans. It was maybe an update that you did towards the end. So I don't know if it was in the original book, but I thought, shoot, now I want a scan of my brain to see if I'm even meditating correctly.
- [04:11]
Dan Harris
I would strongly recommend against that because one of the. Well, first of all, I did it and it was a disaster. And I walked away totally confused about whether I was meditating correctly. And then I actually had dinner that night with my longtime meditation teacher and he told me that he did it too, and he was confused. And so I don't recommend it. My worry for all meditators, including myself, is that you, you get hung up on this question of am I doing it right? And, and here's the simple answer. If you find yourself focused for a few nanoseconds at a time on whatever you're trying to focus on, like your breath or the sensations of your body as you're walking, and then you get distracted a million times and then start over a million times, then you're doing it correctly.
- [04:59]
Amy Brown
Well, that's the encouragement I need to hear, Dan. So thank you. And I know it's been years for you now, but for those who don't know what inspired your mindfulness journey and led you to writing this book, Cocaine.
- [05:13]
Dan Harris
I guess that would be the one word answer. But the slightly longer answer is that I used to be in a, in a former life, globetrotting war correspondent for ABC News. In the years after 9, 11, I spent a lot of time in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, and then a ton of time in Iraq. Probably a year total in Iraq over the course of six or seven trips. And I came home in the middle of this period of time and I got depressed, although I didn't know I was depressed. And then I did this like incredibly stupid thing of self medicating with recreational drugs, including cocaine. And that led to a panic attack on national television on Good Morning America back in 2004. Actually had two panic attacks. One in 2004, one 2005. The. The, the better one to watch is the one from 2004. And if you Google panic attack on television, mine is the number one result, which makes my mother so proud. And after I had that panic attack, I realized I needed to sort my stuff out and so I started seeing a psychiatrist and that ultimately led me to meditation. So that's the brief answer.
- [06:26]
Amy Brown
Yeah. And you know, your, your short answer being the cocaine. That's something that I found to be so interesting about this book is how vulnerable you got, especially the type of work that you do. I know that's something that you wrestled with, like, am I going to share this very vulnerable detail about my life? But for me, I found it. Well, first of all, I was really shocked because I've watched you on TV for years and I thought, no way he was, you know, doing drugs like that. Heart and ecstasy. Like, I just couldn't separate the you out on the town with you being the news guy. My brain struggled with that a little bit. And then I also was thankful because it humanized you, like, and it also helped me relate to you more. Not that I have that exact, you know, the exact story that you have, by any means, but I just was like, oh, wow, he's just not this guy on the news. He has a real story. And it made me just find everything you were saying just a little bit more believable. I guess that's how I would summarize it because sometimes you read like self help stuff and you're like, okay, yeah, right. Like, I don't really know that I could apply this to my life. And I was like, no, if he did this and it completely changed his life and you, it's something that you had to do. And now I want to circle back to the title of the book, 10% happier. Is that a phrase you still use to this day? Because you came up with that title a long time ago.
- [07:46]
Dan Harris
I do use it. Look, I'll just tell the story for the people Listening, who may not be familiar with any of this, that I got interested in meditation at a time when it wasn't really socially accepted, acceptable to talk about it. And so this is probably like 2008, 2009, 2010. And occasionally people at work would say, you know, what's, what has gotten into you? Or what's the matter with you? You used to be semi cool. And I remember a conversation where I was talking to my friend Chris and she was asking this question and I said, you know, I do it because it makes me 10% happier. And I could see the look on her face transform from scorn to mild interest. And I thought, okay, well this is my shtick. This is, this is how I'm going to talk about it. Because there's so much over promising in the self help world that I think is quite reckless and greedy, frankly. And so I wanted to have a way to talk about it that made sense. And I'll be honest, I've been meditating for, I don't know, 16, 17 years and I'm way more than 10% happier. So now my little tweak is that it's like a good investment. You know, if you're consistently investing in the stock market, you'll get 10% annual returns probably, but they will compound over time if you keep investing. And so my level of happiness now, while I continue to make mistakes and life happens to me, illness happens, people in my life pass away. All of the things that happen to the rest of us happen to me. But my ability to, to handle it with some sophistication just continues to get better.
- [09:26]
Amy Brown
I love that. The compounding. How difficult was it for you to decide to write this and reveal things about your own journey that you did? I know in the book you mentioned your mom called you the night before it was gonna release or something, and she was like, don't do it, don't do it. Don't put it out there. And you're like, well, I have books in the warehouse, so it's happening.
- [09:47]
Dan Harris
It was really hard. I mean, it feels like another life because the book came out in 2014, so nearly, you know, 12 years ago. But yes, I was super nervous and my, my mom's email to me shortly before the book came out, in which she begged me not to publish the book, was not helpful. Although I, I'm not trying to criticize my mom. She was just being a protective mother. Honestly, when you ask that question, I, I start thinking about the fact that one year from now, actually less than one year from now at the beginning of January next year, I have a sequel coming out that is frankly more embarrassing. And I'm in the middle of the rewrites for it today as a matter of fact. And, and I'm having very similar feelings of like, am I really going to do this? And what are people going to think? And, and ultimately what I come back to always is, I guess this is just how I teach. I think my MO or my way of being a public figure now is to admit the stuff that most people won't admit but is actually true for them anyway. And so one of the ways I describe this is that some people teach from the mountaintop and I teach from the fetal position.
- [11:04]
Amy Brown
Well, I think you also, it's gotta be a little comforting to have the data from the first book because you were nervous. Similarly, I understand those nerves coming back again. But then you've got data of like, oh, I've done this before, I've been here. And what the data is telling me is this is what people appreciate and respect from me and this should do well too.
- [11:24]
Dan Harris
I, that's true to a certain extent. And I, I definitely, I know. And there's research to show that if you share, if you self disclose, if you're vulnerable, to use the term of art, people tend to like you. But there, there is, there's fear nonetheless for all of us, if we're even for somebody who's done it very publicly, as I have. And I guess part of me is scared that people will say, well wait a minute, how can you continue to make mistakes? You're supposed to be some sort of meditation guy. And I know my answer to that, which is that, you know, there is no such thing as perfection. I'm Mr. 10% and I'm going to continue to make mistakes and I'm going to continue to self disclosed because I think it's helpful for other people because it normalizes all of our weird stuff. But it is, it's, you know, there's no situation in which it's, the fear will go away, I think.
- [12:20]
Amy Brown
Well, let's talk about the monkey mind. How do you think that shows up in our world today?
- [12:26]
Dan Harris
Yeah, so the monkey mind is a term that is kind of taken from the Buddha who was a Dude who lived 2600 years ago in India and Nepal. And he was really, you can think of him as just an amazing genius level meditation teacher. That's just one way to think of him. And he had this, he compared our minds to monkeys in that we're just Jumping all over the place. We were just constantly thinking about the past or the future instead of focusing on what's happening right now. We're judging people, we're judging ourselves, we're wanting stuff, we're not wanting stuff. And when you're unaware of this non stop conversation which you are having with yourself, when you're unaware of it, it owns you. Every little thought that flits through your mind is like, and this is the way my meditation teacher describes it, every little thought becomes a tiny dictator. You just act it out. You have a thought of like, oh, maybe I should say something right now that will ruin the next 48 hours of my marriage. And then you just do it. And what meditation does is help you not be so owned by this stream of consciousness that's happening all the time. And that if we broadcast aloud, we'd be locked up. But most of us are only kind of vaguely aware of the thinking process. And if we can become a little bit more aware, AKA a little bit more mindful, then we have more choice and freedom.
- [13:56]
Amy Brown
Speaking of being locked up, I was just taken back to a part in the book where you, as a journalist, you did solitary confinement for, what was it, 48 hours. First of all, I couldn't believe that a prison agreed to lock you up that way. So just side note there, it's like you were dedicated to that story.
- [14:16]
Dan Harris
You know, I find that people are generally willing to lock up somebody from the mainstream media. You know, we're pretty unpopular. So that part wasn't the hard part. The hard part was actually doing it. And honestly, it really did land me on the conclusion that solitary confinement, while it may be necessary in some extreme cases, is kind of torture. We are social animals. You know, if you think about the history of humans, we never had claws or talons or wings or massive size. In fact, in our early days as a species, we were prey animals. We only got to the, the top of the food chain because of our ability to cooperate, communicate, collaborate, care. And everything about modern life now militates against that. Everything about modern life is hyper individualistic, isolated in our own tech bubbles. We're being pitted against one another on social media because the versions of the humans that we disagree with, the version we see of them is, is like a cartoon version often. So there's no, I don't think it's a coincidence that in this isolated, individualistic, lonely era that we're seeing unprecedented, I mean, never before seen levels of anxiety, depression, suicide, addiction and loneliness. And so actually that is kind of what I'm writing about in my next book, for lack of a less cheesy term. It's about love. You know, we. If you were to forget whether you want to meditate or not, and I'm totally fine. People should make their own minds up. I think you can live a very happy life if you don't meditate, but you cannot live a happy life if you don't have high quality relationships in your life. And you know, we. One of the other things that's happening these days is that people are really into optimization. We're trying to live forever. We're buying books on longevity and then tracking our sleep and counting our steps and all that stuff. And that's fine as far as it goes. But honestly, what the science shows is that if you care about living a long, happy, and by the way, professionally successful life, the thing to optimize for is the quality of your relationships. And so actually, if I could leave you or anybody with anything today, it's. It's that.
- [16:41]
Amy Brown
Well, with the. Which. Thank you for that. Relationships are so important in, in your meditation journey, once you started that, how did it impact your, your work life and your personal life? What are some changes you saw?
- [16:57]
Dan Harris
Huge changes in my personal life. It just made me more patient. I made that joke before about how sometimes you have this thought of like, let me just say something because I want to discharge this anger I'm feeling in my body. So let me just say something. And then, then you regret it and you hurt somebody's feelings. And so I'm. I still do that, but I'm much, much better. I notice when I'm feeling angry and I let it come and go. And I'm much better at just waiting to act until the anger has passed. I'm not saying anger never has any uses. It does, of course, but rarely have I made a good decision in a state of anger. And so one way to talk about this is you learn how to respond wisely to things in your life instead of reacting blindly. And I used to be very reactive and I had quite a temper and it showed up at work and it showed up in my marriage. And again, I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I do much less of that. And it's had a huge effect, honestly.
- [18:06]
Amy Brown
That's another thing I appreciated in the book was talking about kind of like your before and after your behavior, how you'd fire off females like if you weren't chosen for something. And that's something that we, as viewers, we don't really think about when we're watching you on the news is that like, oh, you know, they were chosen for this story or this segment, and there's 10 other people that were maybe fighting for that segment or being sent off to this particular location to cover this particular event. And that ever since I listened to the book now, I've watched different things. I'm like, I wonder who really wanted this segment or this spot, but that, I guess we'll call you your premeditation days. You, yeah, you, you admitted to firing off emails and kind of making, making a scene. Probably behaved in a way that you weren't really proud of. And what I thought was cool, though, and probably could offer a lot of people some hope, is that there's room for change and that people can accept the change. Because suddenly you said you had coworkers. You know, I'm going to paraphrase here, but how I recall it, like, just thinking that you're this kind person and, and that's not necessarily how they saw your behavior before, but they were noticing it after meetings and how you would carry yourself. And I was like, oh, that's awesome. Because if people know that, okay, just because I've shown up this way for the last decade doesn't mean I have to continue. Like, I can change and people will accept me for it.
- [19:32]
Dan Harris
I want to revise or maybe refine what I said before about the one thing I would leave you with. I'm going to make it too. And maybe this, what I'm about to say is even more important because you, and I'm just picking up on what you said, we can change. And I, I, I think many of us might not believe that in our bodies, in our bones, like, we, we might think that we are X amount patient or X amount of loving or friendly or calm or whatever. Like, and that's just our unalterable factory setting. And, and that's just not true. And I'm not, you don't have to take my word for it. What the science is showing us is that the brain and the mind are trainable. You can, through meditation and many other practices, literally change your brain. Meditation, for example, rewires the part of the brain associated with focus. We're also distracted these days. You, you can, you can remedy that. Stress, the part of the brain associated with stress has been shown to literally shrink among meditators. So change is possible. Happiness, which is what all of us want. It's, it's a skill. I mean, and that's just such a liberating idea. And and you know, in some ways, like I my old job as an anchorman and reporter was to travel around the world covering bad news. And now my job is to travel around the world and deliver good news, which is that you can change. Perfection is not on offer, but messy, marginal change is absolutely available to everyone.
- [21:20]
Amy Brown
Yeah, I think the more that we can remind ourselves that the brain is multiple neuroplasticity. I think when you have that information and you know that it's actually true, then there's this hope because some people are just so, well, this is how I'm wired, or this is how I was raised, or this is what my parents and that's the story they can tell themselves. But the facts are telling us something different. So thank you for that reminder as well. So you got hopefully you throw some more takeaways, important takeaways in because both of those that you've shared are very, very, very important. Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water? Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream.
- [22:06]
Dan Harris
Sure thing.
- [22:08]
Amy Brown
Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean.
- [22:21]
Dan Harris
It'S gotta be tide.
- [22:22]
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- [23:00]
Dan Harris
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- [23:03]
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- [23:08]
Dan Harris
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- [23:25]
Bobby Bones
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- [23:27]
Dan Harris
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- [23:38]
Bobby Bones
Hey, it's Bobby Bones from the Bobby Bones Show. Whether you're a seasoned small business owner or you're just thinking about getting started, you'll definitely want to check out season four of Mind the Business small business success stories from iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio and Intuit QuickBooks. Mind the Business is part entertainment, part instruction manual, part inspiration. Each episode features practical tips and success stories that will resonate with entrepreneurs in any industry. In the latest season, hosts Austin Hankowitz and Janice Torres are covering topics on the forefront of running a small business. They're talking to self starters about everything from how AI helps them work smarter to weathering market uncertainties and enjoying the benefits of being your own boss and using Intuit QuickBooks to help you get more done in less time. You won't want to miss it. Listen to Mind the Business Small business success Stories on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Make every day feel epic in the all new Hyundai Palisade Hybrid the Palisade Hybrid is packed full of features, cutting edge tech and up to an EPA estimated 619 miles of range on select trims and class leading interior space available front and second row relaxation seats available class exclusive blind spot view monitor available class exclusive dash Camera feature 2.5T hybrid engine with up to an EPA estimated 619 miles of range on select trims. Seating configurations for 78 passengers with available third row power seats that recline. Available HTRAC all wheel drive so you can be ready to go anywhere in style including standard 100 watt USB C ports available Bose 14 speaker audio and standard passenger talk driver intercom. Learn more about the Hyundai Palisade@HyundaiUSA.com Call 562-314-4603 for complete details.
- [25:31]
Amy Brown
Let's talk about boredom because you do mention that the mindfulness changed your relationship with boredom and I think we could all benefit from that. So share more about your journey with boredom and mindfulness.
- [25:46]
Dan Harris
I want to make a case for boredom. Much of our lives these days revolve whether we know it or not around fending it off. I have a visceral memory. I just remember exactly where I was when I got my first iPhone in I think 2007.
- [26:05]
Amy Brown
That was.
- [26:07]
Dan Harris
Yeah, okay, that was the year we.
- [26:08]
Amy Brown
Had a trivia game the other day and it was what year did the iPhone come out? And I said I think it was 2006 or 2008, I'm not sure. And then I ended up going with 2008 and then sure enough it was the year in between those two.
- [26:23]
Dan Harris
So thank you for that. Yeah, so yeah, I remember in 2007, I'm dating myself now because I was a grown ass man in 2007 already. I got an iPhone and I remember having the thought I will never be bored again. That's not good. Interesting and important things happen when we're bored. New ideas can be made. We are I think and this is also very important, we're allowing ourselves to sit with a certain amount of discomfort because boredom is uncomfortable. What has happened and I'm not anti technology but it, you know, the iPhone, our smartphones generally and then on top of that, five, five or ten years later the proliferation of social media apps that, that live on the phone, they, they have had some negative effects. And one of them is that our lives are so filled and cluttered, filled with and cluttered by stimulation that we're unable or unwilling in many cases to just be. In fact there, there have been some studies that have asked people what would you rather do? They put people in a room and say you can sit here and just be alone with your thoughts or you can administer, self administer electric shocks. The vast majority especially of men will take the shocks because they don't want to sit and just be there. You know, they don't want to do the thing that we as a species did for tens of thousands of years before 2007. And so what I want to make the case for is just to run the experiment in your life. The next time you notice your zombie arm reaching for your phone because you're standing online. And by the way, I have no judgment here, I do this stuff too. But the next time you notice like okay, I'm standing online or I'm sitting on a plane waiting for the door to open so we can deplane or all those little in between moments during your day when you just reflexively reach for the phone, try not check out like what it's like if you don't do it and can, can you sit with that. You know there's this trend of again mostly men online raw dogging reality where like you'll, you'll see them on 18 hour flights and they don't check any their phone at all although they are using their phone to film themselves while they do it. And so I mean I think it's kind of ridiculous but also pointing to something important like can you just be in your life? This one incredibly precious life. Got that's we don't know how Long it's going to last, but we know it's going to end. Can you just be here for it? And that will help you to be there for all the beautiful moments during which many of us are actually like rushing to the next thing or thinking about what kind of notifications we might have on our phone instead of actually being awake and alive for this amazing, mysterious, painful, confusing thing called life. And, and so actually it's just as being okay with boredom is like a rich, non trivial endeavor.
- [29:46]
Amy Brown
Yeah. And I think I've seen some of the raw dogging stuff online too. And just for people. Like if you're seeing people on flights. Yeah. Doing it for multiple hours at a time. Like if you want to try it out at home. I've also seen people just doing like, you know, setting a timer for 10 minutes and then sitting up against the wall with nothing else around them and they just raw dog for 10 minutes. And you can start with small chunks. And I would say you would probably say the same thing about meditation too. You know, you could start with smaller and then grow from there. Because I think when I first started meditating a few years ago, I did some meditation challenge with my sister for like the first 30 day, like a 30 day challenge like at the beginning of the year. And I, I had no clue, but I felt, I felt like if I wasn't sitting down and doing it for 30 minutes, then I wasn't. There was no point. Or if my brain drifted off to something else, there was no point because I had failed. But thankful to a lot of other people out there. And then your story, even when I was listening to it, I'm like, okay, yes. He's reminding me like you're gonna have thoughts. Just let those thoughts come and then send them away and come back. But you don't, you don't have to set out and do a 30 minute one. And like thinking of exercising or, and how we know exercise is important. Right. We've already, that's already been drilled into us. We know conditioning, but meditation hasn't been around quite as long. But you would probably put that in the same category as like, yeah, this is just as important. So I'd imagine, who knows, 10, 20 years from now it might just be like a normal thing that we know that like food, sleep, water, working out, meditation, like it'll just be one of the things that we do.
- [31:26]
Dan Harris
You are asking such good questions. And that one, there are so many things that I just want to double click on or expand upon. I'll see if I can remember them all first on the raw dogging thing, rather than setting a timer and just sitting there doing nothing. The reason why I think it's kind of ridiculous is I think you can use those moments to meditate, which will actually help you be okay with being awake in those in between moments and. And frankly, every moment. The other thing I want to say is, and you hinted at this, like, with the challenge you did, the meditation challenges you've done, and this sense that you felt like it's not. I'm not really doing it unless I do 30 minutes. I just want to relieve you of any pressure or undue pressure you're putting on yourself. All of the research around habit formation indicates that it's very hard to do to start a new habit. And so we don't need to beat ourselves up if we struggle with it or if we have to try again and again and again to, like, really boot up a habit. So first, just. It's okay to struggle with this. And the second thing is the, the. Probably the most reliable route to success is to start small. So I often tell people, you know, start with one minute daily. Ish. So you. You want to. You want to lower the stakes and make this as easeful as possible. The other thing I just want to make sure I bless for you again is that if you' distracted and starting again and getting distracted and starting again, that's totally fine. Clearing your mind is impossible unless you're enlightened or you've died. So, you know, it's such a deeply, you know, unhelpful misconception about meditation that you have to clear your mind in order to do it correctly. Really, all we're trying to do is try to pay attention to one thing. Often it's the feeling of your breath coming in and going out. And then you get distracted and start again. Get distracted and start again. A lot of people think that the getting distracted is a failure, but actually it's success because the whole point of this exercise is to get familiar with the chaos and cacophony of your mind so that it doesn't own you as much, so you're not doing as many stupid things, and that's immensely, immensely valuable. So I think I answered all the things I wanted to say based on your great question. Did I miss anything?
- [33:48]
Amy Brown
No. That was great. I want to talk about meta meditation next. The integration of compassion. Can you expand on that for people?
- [33:57]
Dan Harris
Yes. To be clear, Meta Metta, not to be confused with Meta Meta, the company that owns Facebook and Instagram so, and I'm not correcting you, I, I think you already knew that. I'm just making sure the listeners understand that this is not a commercial for Instagram. Metta is an ancient form of meditation also said to be invented by the. The Buddha, although the versions of it that are available now are tote. And everything I'm talking about now is totally secular and scientifically researched. And it can be. These practices can be done by Christians, Jews, Muslims, whatever your religious belief, or if you have no religious beliefs at all, you can do this stuff. This is. It's not, it's not religious. It is. You can think of it as exercise for your brain. Oh, that was the other thing you said earlier that I wanted to just make sure I double clicked on or, or amplified, which is. I do, I do think we're now thinking about fitness in broader ways. So I'm all for physical fitness. I work out daily. But there's also mental fitness, which meditation falls into. You know, therapy would fall into that too, like making sure that your brain and mind are as sharp as they can be. And then now increasingly we're talking about social fitness or relational fitness, like how are your relationships doing? Because that actually is the greatest predictor of lifespan, the quality of your relationships. Anyway, back to Metta. And this is actually not unrelated. This is another form of meditation that has been studied quite a bit in the labs and has been shown to have psychological, physiological, and even behavioral benefits. Preschoolers taught this form of meditation have been shown to be more likely to give stickers away to kids in their class they do not like. So it can have a real impact. So what is it? Before I describe it in detail, let me just say that it's. When I first heard about this, it seemed incredibly annoying to me, so just brace yourself. But basically, the practice is you envision a series of people, or it can be pets in at least one of the categories. You start with an easy person, or this is where you can use your pet, somebody who's really uncomplicated and easy to love. And you imagine them in your mind. And then you send a bunch of phrases like may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you live with ease, et cetera, et cetera. And then you work your way through a sequence from an easy person to yourself to a mentor to a neutral person, somebody you see all the time but don't have many feelings about, then a difficult person, and then everybody everywhere. And it can feel a little bit like Valentine's Day with a gun to your head. But it has deep, deep impacts on your brain and on the rest of your body. And for me, as somebody who's kind of. For me, as somebody who's really wired as a frosty New Englander, it. It has helped me immensely in. In. In having a friendlier attitude toward my own mind. And. And that then has implications for how I am out in the world, and then how I am out in the world makes me even happier, and then I'm even more friendly out in the world, and then I get even happier, and it's a. It's a really beneficial upward spiral. Does that make sense, what I'm saying?
- [37:36]
Amy Brown
Oh, yeah. I'm already just sitting here thinking, like, could all the world leaders be required to do meta meditation?
- [37:43]
Dan Harris
Amen.
- [37:43]
Amy Brown
I mean, because obviously, as a leader, you have to have a certain amount of edge. But you address this in the book as well, that, like, I do understand how complicated that might seem, especially for you, if you're trying to practice one thing and then you have to show up another way. And, you know, people should listen to the book to know more of what we're talking about there, because I really enjoyed that part about how to show up one way and then showing up at work another way. And then your wife even had to get involved and, you know, nudge you along a little bit. Like, come on, you got to get yourself in the game. But, yeah, so, like, as a leader, you can't. You have to. There's certain ways. You have to be. I get that. But also, they could all just share their stickers a little more, you know?
- [38:30]
Dan Harris
Yes, yes. You know, I mean, this is so important because I am. I am a businessman and a content creator and a father and a husband. Like, I. I'm. I'm an active person in the world, and I am not suggesting that we become doormats or palookas or punching bags at all. What I'm saying is that you can take all of the same actions. You can be as strategic, as competitive on the. On the athletic field, in the boardroom, in every context. You just don't need to be motivated by hatred and anger. I don't think that's a clean burning fuel. I think love, and I'm being cheesy, and I get it, but properly understood, love is a better motivator. So you may be thinking, well, I'm a Marine. I can't be motivated by that. Why not? Why can't you be motivated by love of your country and love of your fellow Marines? Why can't that move you forward instead of hatred. What we know about hatred and anger, while they have their uses for sure, anger can get us off the couch. It can help us spot a problem and get motivated. But in terms of a long, an abiding source of energy and fuel, it constricts your. Literally constricts your vision. It reduces your peripheral vision. It doesn't help you be maximally creative and flexible. And again, I know it's a provocative word to use, using it in a very broad way. So love for yourself, for your family, for your country, is a much. Your brain is in a state where you can handle problems in a much more creative way that doesn't lead to inner toxicity and burnout. It's a better route to helping you reach your goals.
- [40:31]
Amy Brown
I think I just keep thinking of the saying, probably because I've made it my mantra the last couple of weeks for some stuff going on, but just clear is kind, unclear is unkind. And I feel like when my emotions are in the driver's seat, I get really unclear and things are messy and then it's not kind. And the kindest thing I can do, even if I'm being firm as a parent or at work, and I have to have boundaries, if I'm operating from a clear, kind space, then I can deliver it. So that's over and over. Clear is kind, unclear is unkind. And yeah, through with my faith, through meditation, prayer, different things I know that I do that help ground me. I know I can get to that space a lot quicker. And I can know, okay, emotions are here right now. I need to wait till they're in the passenger seat and then I can proceed. And I'm just thankful getting back in this book has helped me get back into meditation, because I told you I did that challenge a couple of years ago and got really into it. And then it kind of, you know, life takes a turn. And you just. I was thinking when I was doing one of the meditations recently, I was like, God, why did I ever drop this habit? Like, how? How did I ever drop it? But I didn't let that keep me from moving forward with it. And so now I feel like I'm starting back on this journey. So thank you so much for 10% happier, because it's brought it back in to my life. And I've read the Power of Now and something in the book and you talk about Eckhart Tolle. I was like, I never thought the things that you think. And I was like, wow, he's just really going hard on Some people. Not that you were in a bad, bad way, but did you have, you're laughing. Do you get what I'm saying?
- [42:16]
Dan Harris
Yes. Okay, I want to step back. One thing. Just what you described about what you've been going through. You didn't say, you didn't overshare, but you know, you just mentioned that you've been going through some stuff and coming back to clear is kind and, and coming back to a meditation practice. This is a weird thing to say because we don't know each other, but I just felt proud of you. It just sounds like you're handling this beautifully, so just want to give you some thoughts.
- [42:44]
Amy Brown
Well, thank you. And I, I, I may want to, I am, this is going to give meditation shout out too because I had like a zoom call yesterday of someone that I've worked with that's been involved with like our family for a few years. And she said on the call, she said, you, it's probably been about five years now, I guess she said, you are not the same person that I met five years ago. And so thank you for saying that. And I, I shared that not as like, oh, look at me. It's just we were talking earlier about how change is possible and that our brains can change, absolutely can happen. And I could have stayed stuck in old patterns and continued that behavior. But meditation is a piece to that puzzle that helped me change. And that's why I think it was so shocking to me that for the last year or so I had dropped that habit. And so now I'm thankful that it is back. So thank you.
- [43:44]
Dan Harris
Just to respond to that, the falling off the wagon, so to speak, on meditation or any other habit is totally normal and nothing's been lost. You can always start again. And so I just, for you and for anybody listening and whether it's meditation or exercise or healthy eating, whatever it is, it's completely normal to struggle in that way and you can always start again. But to answer the question you were actually asking, which is, you know, in, in the book, I totally make fun of people, including best selling authors like Eckhart Tolle and Deepak Chopra. And yeah, I tried to do it in a loving, fun way, but I definitely made fun of them. And I think speaking of change, it's probably not the way I would write about people now, many years later. And in the book I'm working on now, I do kind of make fun of a few people, but it's a little different in my current state.
- [44:39]
Amy Brown
Okay. I just had, and I was like, oh, wow. Okay. He went after them, but not. You're right, it was kind. It was handled well, for sure. I just was. Maybe it was another thing I found that I appreciated. Like, you're just a normal person and you even. Anybody that's thought about it or thinks like, oh, that's too boo boo or whatever, like, you come from a perspective of like, you were that. Like, you even on your 10 day silent retreat, you're like, this is stupid. I'm leaving. Like, you know, and that's me paraphrasing. You didn't say those exact words, but you. That's the vibe I felt and I, I appreciated that. So. Because you're not coming from this, you know, place of, oh, I've all. I've always been this way. And this is going to be amazing. Like, you're like, this is ridiculous. And then you sort of through your own research realized like, oh, no, actually this is not ridiculous. It's life changing.
- [45:30]
Dan Harris
Well said and I appreciate it. Thank you.
- [45:32]
Amy Brown
10% happier. And like I said, I'm very thankful for the meditation practice at the end of the book. That was a nice touch. All right, Dan, I hear you have a new Audible original coming out on March 5th. It's called even. You can find the Time, the Motivation, and the Right practice for you. What can we look forward to in this new book?
- [45:52]
Dan Harris
Yeah, I did a little Audible book with my friend Seb and a Selassie. She's a highly trained meditation teacher and we recorded this, had a lot of fun. And it's really kind of a meditation book for people who think they can't meditate.
- [46:07]
Amy Brown
Well, perfect. I'm probably going to check that out because I still am thinking I cannot, but I'm still going to keep trying. Well, Dan, thank you so much for.
- [46:16]
Dan Harris
That's just another. Just to say that thinking you can't is just another thought. And if you just notice, oh, that's a thought.
- [46:23]
Amy Brown
It's a thought.
- [46:23]
Dan Harris
Then you can go back to your breath.
- [46:25]
Amy Brown
It's already gone, Dan. It's already gone. And I love. You know what I love to visualize. And I don't know what meditation gave this to me. I can't remember at some point, but I love to visualize. When I breathe in, all this ray of light is coming towards me and coming into my hands and I hold them up and I breathe in and I breathe in the light and then it goes through my body on the exhale and outside my toes. Is that Dan approved?
- [46:52]
Dan Harris
I really believe that people should do whatever works for them. I want people to feel better and feel okay with themselves and I think that's going to make a to be cheesy again. Like it'll that'll improve the world. And so yeah, whatever gets you there as long as it's not harmful to you or anybody else. I bless it.
- [47:11]
Amy Brown
Well Dan, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom today. If you are ready to take action on your goals and you want even more strategies to make it happen, check out 10% Happier by Dan Harris or the upcoming Even youn can meditate on March 5th. All available on Audible. Let's make 2026 your most productive year yet.
- [47:31]
Dan Harris
Thank you so much for having me on and the great questions. I really appreciate it.
- [47:34]
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Dan Harris
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