FEELING THINGS: Understanding the Drama Triangle: Why We Play Victim, Rescuer & Persecutor

Summary

The Bobby Bones Show – "FEELING THINGS: Understanding the Drama Triangle: Why We Play Victim, Rescuer & Persecutor"

Date: December 14, 2025
Hosts: Amy & Kat
Podcast Segment: "Feeling Things"

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Episode Overview

In this candid and insightful episode, Amy and Kat offer an accessible, high-level overview of the Drama Triangle—a model describing three interconnected roles (Victim, Rescuer, Persecutor) that people often fall into during conflict and unhealthy communication, especially during emotionally charged times like the holidays. Through personal stories, relatable examples, and laughter, they examine how these dynamics play out in everyday life and share ideas for breaking the cycle to pursue healthier, more direct communication.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to the Drama Triangle

[03:47 – 04:14]

• The Drama Triangle, originally conceptualized by Stephen Karpman, identifies three roles people unconsciously assume in relational conflict:
  • Victim: The helpless or powerless one
  • Rescuer: The over-helper or fixer
  • Persecutor: The blame-shifter or critic
• The purpose? To better recognize these roles in oneself and others, especially during family gatherings or stressful holidays.

“This is just shallow dive...you know what you need to know by staying in the kitty pool where it's safe.” – Kat [04:10]

2. Fact vs. Story: Setting the Stage

[16:44 – 22:45]

• Fact vs. story: Most of what creates drama is not the facts themselves, but the stories we tell ourselves about them.
  • Fact: Unquestionably true data, e.g., “I have not been able to get pregnant on my own.”
  • Story: The narrative layered onto those facts (empowering or limiting).
• Stories can be "above the line" (positive, empowering) or "below the line" (fearful, limiting).

“Most of what we’re talking about is the context. We’re usually talking in story versus just talking about the facts of our lives.” – Kat [16:50]
“Our stories also help us make sense of the world, so we usually have a level of story that we go with." – Kat [19:15]

• Examples are shared: Kat’s infertility (stories of hope vs. hopelessness), Amy’s divorce (stories of shame vs. resilience).

“I am divorced. Period. That’s a fact… Am I now worthy of another relationship?... That’s a story though.” – Amy & Kat [27:45-27:47]

3. The Dance of the Drama Triangle

[31:56 – 36:42]

• The triangle is a byproduct of avoiding direct, vulnerable requests for needs to be met.
• All humans (no exceptions!) sometimes fall into these roles.
• The “dance” can involve just yourself, or multiple people.

“I have literally been every character, all three. ...sometimes I don’t know exactly in the moment when I’m doing it.” – Amy [15:37]
“Once you see it, you almost can’t unsee it – unless, sometimes, you’re in it.” – Amy [32:46]

• Alternate role names suggested for clarity:
  • Victim = "Helpless Baby"
  • Rescuer = "Bossy Helper"
  • Persecutor = "Blaming Bully" or "Villain"

4. Exploring Each Role in Depth

[36:42 – 55:17]

• Persecutor (Blaming Bully/Villain):
  • Blames others, denies responsibility, can include gossip/trash talk.
  • Not proactive about finding solutions, just blames.

“The persecutor... they get the bad rep in this triangle... They’re like the mean one.” – Kat [40:56]

• Rescuer (Bossy Helper):
  • Takes on other people's problems, martyrs self, enables the victim.
  • Often rooted in a need for worth, control, or to avoid their own feelings.

“They forego all of their needs to solve somebody else’s needs. ...they end up playing like a martyr role.” – Kat [51:28]
“Oh, you sweet martyr.” – Amy recalling therapist’s words [51:53]

• Victim (Helpless/Whiny Baby):
  • Feels powerless, gets needs met indirectly by inviting others to rescue.
  • Even the Rescuer and Persecutor eventually become Victims (“all roads lead to Victim”).

"The victim is the one that gets their needs met without asking for them to be met...duh, I want to be that!" – Kat [66:43]

• Why we play these roles: To avoid vulnerability, asking directly, or confronting uncomfortable emotions.
• Secondary gains: We get "something" out of each role (attention, validation, feeling right) even when it’s ultimately unhelpful.

5. How the Triangle Appears in Real Life & Media

[68:18 – 73:12]

• Pop culture example: Netflix holiday movie "Mary Xmas" (no big spoilers).
  • Characters who, instead of stating needs openly, assign blame or silently resent—leading to prolonged unhappiness.
  • Amy gives another TV example highlighting household gender roles and expectations ("All Her Fault" on Peacock).
• These stories echo real-life patterns where honest communication is replaced with blaming, rescuing, or suffering in silence.

6. Breaking the Cycle — Getting Off the Triangle

[73:12 – 80:28]

• Practical Steps:
  1. Notice you're on it. Awareness is step one—may require reflection or feedback.
  2. Lower your expectations for how others “should” behave (to reduce resentment).
     • “Expectations are future resentment at times.” – Amy [74:11]
  3. Set internal boundaries. Know which relationships can meet which needs; don’t go to a “hardware store for bread.”
  4. Self-care. Don’t beat yourself up for falling into these patterns. Practice self-compassion.
• If you’re unsure how it's showing up, therapy can be invaluable for working through patterns.

“Internal boundaries... you don’t have to tell the people that you have these boundaries... Don’t go to the hardware store looking for a loaf of bread. If this person does not have bread, I can’t keep asking them for it because then that’s my fault.” – Kat [79:09]

7. How to Invite Change Without Blame

[60:39 – 62:16]

• When you recognize a drama triangle pattern in a relationship, introduce it gently:

“I just started thinking about this… I feel like we might be dancing a little, and I want to see if you feel the same way.” – Amy [61:28]

• Use therapy as a neutral, expert resource to explore these patterns without antagonism.

8. Above the Line Thinking & Burnt Toast Theory

[80:28 – 82:04]

• Shift from “Why me?” to “What does this make possible?”
• Burnt Toast Theory: When something inconvenient happens, choose to see it as protecting you from an unseen greater harm (above-the-line story).

"The burnt toast theory is a psychological coping mechanism that suggests minor inconveniences like burning your toast may prevent larger misfortunes." – Amy [81:54]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the universality of the triangle:

  “We are wired to go below the line... we had to be aware of our surroundings... it’s that same idea that fear helps us protect ourselves...” – Kat [20:37]

• On personal stories and humor:

  “I just wanted to say I didn’t really want to talk about my birthday. I think I just wanted to say I’m feeling excited because currently I am feeling excited.” – Kat [12:38]
  "If you hop on the ride [the triangle], we typically have a station we go to first... mine’s for sure victim." – Amy [49:50]

• On breaking out of the triangle:

  “The purpose of [the drama triangle] is to show you that you can take ownership of your own life and you can ask for your needs to be met.” – Kat [62:22]

• On above-the-line stories:

  “When we missed the exit... this is keeping us from an accident... it's just a way of looking at it above the line.” – Amy [28:30]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:10] – Amy & Kat's “kitty pool” (at-a-glance) intro to the triangle
• [16:44] – Fact vs. Story explained
• [19:15] – How above/below the line stories shape our lives
• [27:45] – Amy explores divorce fact vs. story
• [36:42] – Deep dive into Persecutor role
• [51:28] – Amy’s “martyr” moment and the Rescuer role
• [55:36] – Amy discusses her experience in the Victim role
• [73:12] – 4 Steps to get off the triangle
• [80:28] – Burnt Toast Theory & reframing perspective

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Conclusion & Takeaway

The episode closes with a reminder that understanding and stepping out of the Drama Triangle requires self-awareness, intentionality, and vulnerability—but brings freedom and healthier connections. The holidays, layered with stress and family history, are the perfect time to become more conscious of these dynamics.

“You can’t get a loaf of bread at the hardware store… you’ve got to go to the grocery store… And that grocery store might be a different person.” – Kat [79:09]

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Final note:
If you find yourself in a drama triangle, remember to reflect, reframe your stories, and communicate your needs directly. It’s not about blame—it’s about owning your part and choosing a healthier dance.

Transcript

[Kat]

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[Amy]

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[Kat]

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[Amy]

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[Kat]

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[Amy]

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All right, break it down. Look, if you ever have feelings and you just. Cat got you covered like a num, bro. Ladies and fellas, we just follow in the spirit where it tell us from the real stuff to the chill stuff and the in between. Sometimes the best thing you can do is just stop and feel things.

[Kat]

This is feeling things with Amy and Kat.

[Amy]

Happy Tuesday. Welcome to feeling things. I'm Amy.

[Kat]

And I'm Kat.

[Amy]

And today we are doing a drama triangle sort of deep dive. Is it a deep dive into the drama triangle or just like school time?

[Kat]

I'd call it an overview.

[Amy]

Oh, what? Oh, an overview.

[Kat]

We're doing a, A. What do they call it? High level. We're not getting into.

[Amy]

We're not going to.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Okay, so this is just shallow dive.

[Kat]

And then if we need to do a deep dive, we can. But I think that we'll hit what we need to hit.

[Amy]

You know what you need to know by staying in the kitty pool where it's safe.

[Kat]

Where it's safe.

[Amy]

Like a. This is like a hot tub. Hot tub is like the safe part of the pool. We're not going deep.

[Kat]

The hot tub is not. Is a different part of the pool.

[Amy]

I know, but it's generally safe, right? Because it's not.

[Kat]

I guess so. I feel like hot tubs, some people have a weird relationship with them and they don't like them. What? Like people don't like to get in the hot tubs cuz they can be gross.

[Amy]

The last time I did something at a public resort, it wasn't a hot tub. It wasn't a, A hot tub hot tub. It was a hot spring hot tub. So it was natural from the earth. And I think that the temperature of this particular spring was 105. So doesn't that kill everything? Yeah, it was pretty hot. But it's snowing out. It's so cool.

[Kat]

Well, I think most hot tubs are sanitary because don't they have chlorine in them or chemicals? Or chemicals like a pool.

[Amy]

Let's hope so.

[Kat]

Anyway.

[Amy]

I feel like if we went to the staff at any place we'd be like, is this being treated properly? They would be like, yes, they have to say that. Exactly.

[Kat]

And they're like, okay, well so we're not in the hot tub, we're just in the hot spring.

[Amy]

Yeah. See, I was just creating a little drama.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

For the drama. You didn't like it either. You were feeling feisty because I brought a pot tub.

[Kat]

Well, I've already been feeling feisty today.

[Amy]

Is that your feeling of the day?

[Kat]

I don't feel feisty. I feel like I was coming off.

[Amy]

As feisty, but that's not.

[Kat]

I didn't feel that. I felt frustrated.

[Amy]

It's not you. You're frustrated. I almost would rather you be feisty than frustrated.

[Kat]

I wasn't mad. Okay. It's a.

[Amy]

What are you frustrated at about?

[Kat]

Can I share this? I can share this. I think so. I just, like, wanted to talk about my feeling of the day, which was excited, and I was excited because my birthday is coming up. And then you were like, your birthday will pass. You said it just like this. You said, your birthday will be passed. You can't talk about that.

[Amy]

It's not how I said it, and you know it.

[Kat]

I'm. I'm teeing up an example for the drama triangle.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

And you were just like, we can't talk about that. It'll be passed. Nobody will want to hear about your birthday.

[Amy]

Okay, see, what Cat's doing here is she is making me into the persecutor big time.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And she's getting to be the victim.

[Kat]

Here so I can get my needs met.

[Amy]

Yes. Which her. The need that she has is to talk about her birthday. And it's working, because here we are, we're talking about it, and what I would like to say in regard to that is, a long time ago, we had a calendar meeting on how we wanted to roll out episodes, and it's. This is kind of behind the scenes in the weeds sort of stuff, But Cad's doing a lot of video things, and she was like, ooh, our big Feeling Things episode would be good if we had that done a week in advance. So we've got a lot of time to edit the clips and see what we want to pull for socials and get it on YouTube and whatnot. Yeah. Okay. I get that too. Also, Houston. That gives him more time to edit as well. Well, turns out Houston has kept his same editing schedule, so I don't think if we alter it, it'll affect him at all. But since we're recording a week out. Yes. When this airs, Kat's birthday will have.

[Kat]

Passed, and nobody will have cared about it.

[Amy]

Nobody said that.

[Kat]

I'm just kidding.

[Amy]

But we do have an episode coming out on your birthday, so I thought that Couch Talks episode would be a great Time to, like, bring up your birthday. That's all I was saying. But I think you're onto something, because I wanted to talk about Stevenson's race, but this will air, like, way after that. We talk about our Thanksgiving plans. This is airing way after that because it's airing on, like, December 8th, 9th, whenever, whatever. That Tuesday is the 9th. And, you know, we can revisit this. So now if it's no difference to you, because I know it won't bother Houston, should we just start recording our Tuesday episodes the Monday before? So everything's fresh.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And we are bringing in the freshest of the fresh.

[Kat]

We can talk about our lives in real time.

[Amy]

This is, like, so fresh. This is, like, right when the vegetables arrive at the grocery store.

[Kat]

No, it's right when they pick them off the tree.

[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Kat]

The vine.

[Amy]

You're the first customer out of the ground. Yeah.

[Kat]

Fresh. Never frozen.

[Amy]

That kind of fresh.

[Apple Card Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Technically, our episodes now are a little bit frozen.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And we're gonna start giving them to you fresh. And I think that podcasting gives you that flexibility to pre tape in that way. I do come from a very fresh live radio world, so that's probably why in my brain, I'm like, we're in the moment. We're doing things. Or if that has been like, we.

[Kat]

Don't you want to confuse people?

[Amy]

Yeah. So I was just. I'm. I'm down for that. We. So now we have talked about your birthday, which is what you wanted. Happy birthday. And then we came up with a new plan that I think is going to be better, but now we just have to get on track to do it.

[Kat]

Well, I will say I really appreciate this plan because this plan really, I think, was created for my benefit, but I think I've learned I don't start editing the clips until the week of anyway, so it doesn't matter.

[Amy]

So yay. Thanks for your patience, listeners, and walking through that with us, and maybe you did see a little bit of victim mode, because Kat was really turning it on, like, and she made me out to be persecutor in full transparency. That's not how our conversation really went. Like, it was for dramatization purposes. We acted that out. So in the drama triangle, there's the victim, the persecutor, and the. The rescuer.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

It's rarely how I show up. So do you think I show up as the rescuer a lot? I mean, sometimes I kind of want to control it and fix it, but I've been working on that.

[Kat]

Well, it's not bad. Okay.

[Amy]

I know we're getting bad. I know it's not bad, but I, I. Okay, yeah, we're getting ahead of ourselves, so I'll let you go.

[Kat]

Okay. Because I think that I want to talk about two things before we even get to those roles.

[Amy]

So before we proceed, though, is. Oh, do I there anything else you would like to say about your birthday? Because you did say you were excited, and we didn't really expand on that feeling.

[Kat]

Yeah, I'm excited about it, and I just wanted everybody to know it's coming.

[Amy]

Up on December 4th, so we'll talk about it in Couch Talks, which you heard last Thursday.

[Kat]

I probably won't.

[Amy]

Yes, we will.

[Kat]

So now you're making me talk about my birthday a lot. This is backfiring on me.

[Amy]

Well, I planned on talking about your birthday in that episode, but we just haven't recorded it yet.

[Kat]

Oh, thank you. Yeah.

[Amy]

You just didn't know that, but I ruined the surprise.

[Kat]

Were you gonna bring out a cake and everything?

[Amy]

No, I have a half a loaf of banana bread I could bring in.

[Kat]

I just wanted to say I didn't really want to talk about my birthday. I think I just wanted to say I'm feeling excited because currently I am feeling excited. That is my true emotion right now, because my birthday is coming, and I enjoy my birthday. Although I will say I'm starting to feel less excited than normal because turning 36 isn't, like, you know.

[Amy]

Yeah, but 36 is 3, plus 6 is 9. And I don't know, it's just I was trying to do some.

[Kat]

Okay, wait, what was the special number? 7 to sell my house. Wasn't it, like.

[Amy]

Oh, I think eight.

[Kat]

Eight. Okay.

[Amy]

Well, that's address numerology.

[Kat]

It's different.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Okay. Anyway, I'm just excited. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about it.

[Amy]

And what are you doing for your birthday? Because I am going to be sadly out of town.

[Kat]

Yeah. So my actual birthday birthday, I'm working. Usually I take the day off, but I had to move my schedule around this week, so I have to. I have to work. I get to work on my birthday, and then I think I'm just going to dinner with Patrick. But what we do is we don't pick our birthday dinner. We plan for the other person's birthday dinner, and we don't tell them what it is until we, like, show up there.

[Amy]

Okay, I like that.

[Kat]

Yeah. And then I'm really interested to see what he got me because it came in, like, a month ago and he's been really excited about it. So I don't know if it's, like, it could be one of two things. It could be something really cool, or it could be something he, like, found on an Instagram ad.

[Amy]

So isn't he hiding it in the garage, or wasn't he tinkering with it or working on it or something? Because didn't he say at some point you thought he was, like, surprising you with something else, and he was like, no, no, you could go in there. That's your birthday present.

[Kat]

No, he was. He spent, like, an hour. He went downstairs and wouldn't let me come downstairs. He was in the living room on his computer. And he was, like, on his computer for, like, an hour. And then I came downstairs. I was like, can I come down now? And he said, yes, but don't come over here, and was, like, hiding his computer screen. I'm like, what item that you're ordering from the Internet takes you an hour maybe? You ordered me tickets to something and, like, the tickets were going on, and.

[Amy]

Then also, he couldn't get into a corner of the room to where, like, you couldn't see his screen.

[Kat]

I guess not.

[Amy]

Is he running a projector?

[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

Actor?

[Kat]

But then it came in the mail, so it can't be, like, tickets to something because they wouldn't mail those.

[Amy]

Ah, I don't know. Well, we're gonna find out.

[Kat]

You.

[Amy]

You already know when this is airing. You already know.

[Kat]

That's fun. That, like, I know, but I don't know. But, like, right now, I do know.

[Amy]

Like, when people are hearing this. You already know.

[Kat]

Current me doesn't know, but then, like, future current me does.

[Amy]

December 9th, you knows?

[Kat]

Yeah. Okay, well, I'll keep you guys updated. He's gotten me a couple things off of, like, Instagram ads that have been, like, really funny, so hopefully it's not.

[Amy]

Oh, I can't wait to find out. And then I can't wait to celebrate you once I'm back.

[Kat]

Well, you can just celebrate me now.

[Amy]

Okay. Yeah, Well, I don't have anything.

[Kat]

You don't have to give me anything. What? Yeah. No.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Okay. Anyway, I'm done talking about my birthday.

[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

Okay.

[Kat]

Okay. Are you done talking about my birthday?

[Amy]

Yes.

[Kat]

Okay. All right. So we're talking about the drama triangle. And the reason we're doing this is because it's the holidays, and when the holidays come. What comes with the holidays?

[Amy]

Drama.

[Kat]

Because you're around family.

[Amy]

Period.

[Kat]

And just, like, in general, there's gatherings, there's stress. Yes. So the drama triangle is a type of unhealthy pattern of communication that all of us engage in. So I say that. I'm going to say that right now because we have a tendency to think. How do I say this kind. I mean, this very kindly. But, like, in general, most of us have a tendency to think a little bit more highly of our communication patterns than they probably really are. Yeah, we all do this. It is universal. So there's no shame in playing this game.

[Amy]

I have literally been every character, all three. I've played all three roles. The thing with me is I know I can be all three. It's just sometimes I don't know exactly in the moment when I'm doing it.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Like, I may not have. Like, I'll eventually have the awareness, hopefully. Please. Or it may need to be brought to my attention. And then I'll be like, oh, shoot. But it's not because I know them. I think I am hopefully a little more aware, but I definitely know that I partake and. And I am. I'm just not aware.

[Kat]

Yeah, we all partake. The lesson in this is how to notice that you're on it so then you can get off of it. Not to like, not ever get on it. I will get on it again. You will do it again. Everybody will do it again. So there's that. Everybody does it. Now, before we talk about the drama triangle itself, I wanted to touch on two things that we've talked about, but we haven't really named them. This in this way that can help you understand the drama triangle a little bit better. And the one is, the first one is fact versus story. So when I say fact versus story, I imagine you have some idea of what I'm talking about.

[Amy]

Yeah, it's like what's the data or the facts and what's absolutely true and then what's the story that you've made up around it?

[Kat]

Yeah. And so all of the data in our life can be put in two different categories, fact and story. So another way to look at at that is the content, which is the facts, and the context, which is the stories we create around the facts. And most of what we, all of us, in general, when we're talking about things, most of what we're talking about is the context. We're usually talking in story versus just talking about the facts of our lives. And I want to give an example of this because it's easy to confuse facts and story. A lot of the things that we think are facts are really just stories that we have created to make us feel Right. About the other stories that we have, I feel like that's a little confusing. But so I was listening to this podcast. I think her name, I don't know what the guest name is, but the host was Elise Lohan. Have you heard of her? She's an author and she's also, she gives me Brene Brown vibes. She is very smart and like she, she's an author and writes books about like, just like thought and her own theories and stuff. But she also is a, a student of work too. So she did this podcast with. I really want to say this woman's name is Courtney Smith.

[Amy]

It is. I just googled it.

[Kat]

Oh, wow. Yes.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

And her podcast is called like Pulling the Thread.

[Amy]

Yes.

[Kat]

Okay. Her voice is also really nice to listen to. So if you just like need a soothing voice, which Brene Brown's voice is soothing too.

[Amy]

Very.

[Kat]

I don't know why I brought them up. Oh, I was listening to them talk. They talked about this too in an episode of her podcast. And Courtney Smith said that usually there's only two facts really to anything we're talking about and then like the rest we just kind of make up because facts are pretty simple. So I'm gonna give an example of what facts versus story could look like and also pay attention to like, I'm gonna give a fact and then I'm just going to give stories that could be there. I want to show that like our stories could be really helpful in motivating and encouraging. And our stories can be very drama filled and fear based and based on which one we go with can totally change the trajectory of something with the same exact facts. And I'm going to ask you maybe to give an example of this after you hear me do this.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

So listen to what I'm saying, but also think at the same time.

[Amy]

Got it.

[Kat]

Okay. So a fact right now for me, I have struggled to get pregnant, period. That's the fact. I have not been able to get pregnant on my own. Fact, period. The stories I could create about that, and maybe some of these I have created could be, I'm never going to be a mom. My body doesn't work properly. I'm being punished for something that I've done. God doesn't love me, My marriage is going to suffer. I'm going to have extra conflict in my marriage. I'm going to be too old to be a mom. Or I could say things like, God is waiting for the perfect timing for me to have a kid. Or this is creating so much space for Me to be vulnerable and connect with my husband. This is going to strengthen my marriage because of the things we're going through. I'm going to learn so much about my body and understand more about the reproductive system than I ever thought I would. So do you see those two? And I could, depending on where I am. Because our stories also help us make sense of the world. So we usually have a, a level of story that we go with. I'm getting ahead of myself. There's two ways we can go with stories. We can go above the line, below the line. Have you heard this?

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

Yay. So above the line are stories that are very empowering, right? They're motivating, they're helpful. They allow us to be an active participant in our life versus, like life happening to us. And then below the line is when I am understanding things through a lens that like the life is happening to me. Very fear based and they get you kind of stuck. So based on if I'm above the line and below the line is going to shape how I then proceed, right? And most of the time, most of the time, again, this is like taking shame out of it. We are wired to go below the line. We're wired to think fear based. And I think that's more of like think about how we were created, right? We had to be aware of our surroundings and what was going on, so in order we could protect ourselves. It's that same idea that like fear helps us protect ourselves, therefore we're easy to go there. But when we go fear based, we end up cutting ourselves off from any other need outside of keeping myself safe. So learning, exploring, play, connection, all of that doesn't get met. I'm just making sure I'm protected. So I think if I go back to those stories like the ones that I said first, that were examples of being below the line, those would protect me from probably feeling my real feelings, right? So like, if I, God doesn't want me to be a mother, it's like, okay, well then just accept that and like figure something else out. So you can't like sit in the sadness that this is happening, right? Or this is going to create conflict and struggle in your marriage doesn't allow me to actually see that this conflict in our marriage is creating all these opportunities for us too. So as I was saying that. Did you. Have you thought of like a fact?

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[Ed Helms]

Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here.

[IBM Advertiser]

And hi, I'm Cal Penn and we're.

[Ed Helms]

The hosts of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adapt of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Amy]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennet. Here. Listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Ed Helms]

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[Kat]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars.

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[Kat]

Have you thought of like a fact?

[Amy]

Well, something that I've been thinking about recently and I don't know if it's ever since my boyfriend said to me, me after I was sharing with him some overwhelm that I was having. And I think it's because I know our relationship is progressing and I have some fear around. Well, I didn't get it right the first time, you know, my first marriage. Even though it's not that it was wrong though it was a very long marriage and we had struggles getting pregnant but we ended up adopting. So that ended up being a beautiful thing that happened from that relationship and we have a good co parenting relationship now. But I think as my current relationship progresses, I am feeling a lot of overwhelm of like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? And I need to slow down or I, I, I have some fear that's popping up. And he said to me like, you have somebody right here that cares for you and loves you and once your kids are doing well, like he just was going through all these things and I was kind of in a negative mode but he didn't really know what was, what was deep down inside of me. And so I share that as a little preface to the I am divorced period. That's a fact. That's a fact. And that's something I never thought I would be ever. And from that, like some of the things are like, yeah, am I now worthy of another relationship? Like, yeah, because I wasn't a good wife the first time.

[Kat]

You know, that's a story though.

[Amy]

That's a story.

[Kat]

I wasn't a good wife.

[Amy]

Yeah. And how could we have adopted these kids and then split up? So now we've ruined their lives story. Because you know, when my dad left at nine, he ruined my life. I'm just kidding.

[Kat]

Which is, that's also a story.

[Amy]

Yes. Because kids are resilient, adults are resilient. I have seen it firsthand. And now Ben and I co parenting and the healthiest way possible for us is showing that we're doing the best by our kids. And I think this is better for them than maybe Ben and I staying together for them. Because then that's the line.

[Kat]

That's a story. Above the line.

[Amy]

That's above the line. And there's been a lot of healing that has been able to take place because of the separation of the divorce. So there is above the line stuff that has happened, but there are below the line stuff of like, well, woe is me, or why did this have to happen to me? Instead of. For me? And I even think of, like, a silly example. Cryo cats in here running the cameras. But we were driving to the Tennessee game in Knoxville, and I was trying to get there early because we were meeting my boyfriend and he was tailgating and some friends, and he wanted me to meet some people. And it's where he went to law school. And his. His wife that passed away from cancer, she went to her undergrad there, so he was with some of her friends. And I really wanted to get there early to see all these people. And we just wasn't gonna happen. Like, we left later, and then we missed an exit, and it set us back another 12 minutes. And I was like, oh, well, now we're really not gonna make it. And I was feeling bummed. And then Kat was like, she went and did the little. You turn to turn around and add the 12 minutes. And she's like, well, I'm just gonna look at it as like, that protected us from something. Like, if we had stayed on that path, like, who knows, maybe we. This now took us out of harm's way. Which that's just a way of looking at it above the line. Like, who knows? Do we know that that is really what happened? No, but it does help give you a different perspective that then allows you to take a deep breath and then just proceed and be in the moment instead of like, oh, why does this happen to me? Why do I always miss the exits? And I'm not paying attention to the map? And. And yeah, then you spiral. So that. That's a very.

[Kat]

And then that gets you.

[Amy]

Tiny example.

[Kat]

That'll. That's a great example, actually, because it will make sense as we talk about the drama triangle, because that is a example of you being feeling. Playing this victim role of. On the drama triangle. Yeah. And so I give all of this pre. Context because we. We didn't even have to talk about all that to talk about the drama triangle. But I think it is very helpful. And when I heard them talk about it on that podcast, it gives a whole different way to think about what being on the drama triangle means. Because if you can understand the stories and you can understand that you are writing stories over and over and over again and you are creating all these stories, you can have so much more power in one. How you think, which is then going to shape how you operate throughout the world. So if I can take ownership of these stories, I. I can either acknowledge like, yeah, I'm writing these stories and they're not so great and that's why I'm sitting here, or I can acknowledge like, oh, I'm writing these stories. That means I can write them this way and I don't have to sit here anymore. So there are very. Either way. Even either when you choose, at least you're owning it and choosing it. It gives us agency. So let's take those two ideas and then talk about how the drama triangle works. And this is actually really simple. It's a. Like, sometimes can feel very complex, but this pattern of relationship and communication is very simple. It all stems from avoiding being direct and asking for your needs to be met. Which again, I'm just going to keep saying this over and over. This is normal. This is normal. This is normal. We live in a world that loves to avoid any type of conflict. And sometimes asking for our needs is conflict. And so even me, like, I was being kind of funny, but me playing that role of victim earlier, but like, Amy wouldn't let me talk about my birthday.

[Amy]

Which is a story.

[Kat]

Which is a story. Yes, it's a story. It's me saying that. So I couldn't say I really. Because I didn't want to say I really don't like this schedule anymore because I feel like we can't talk about things in real time. Is there any way we could revisit that? Yeah, this is a low stakes example, but that's an example of me being vulnerable.

[Amy]

Yeah. The reason why it's like that is such a simple ass. It's like no drama.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

So it's like if you do that.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

You're not in the drama triangle. That's why it's the. It's the perfect name. Because when you avoid the direct line of communication and intentional dialogue like we've talked about before, and healthy communication, that's when the drama comes in the end. And. And while you say it is very normal, I will also say it's so helpful.

[Kat]

Oh, yeah.

[Amy]

It's so like once you see it, if. And it clicks with certain relationships where you understand where you. And you can dance. Right. Like, you'll probably get to that. But like, once you see it, you almost can't unsee it. Unless sometimes you're in it.

[Kat]

Unless you really don't want to and.

[Amy]

You want to avoid it. Like I said, sometimes I don't have awareness and then I need to be told and I'm like, oh, shoot. Yeah, you're right. But I'm glad I have the knowledge so that I can. Hopefully, I'll remain in this space. Like, I don't know, I could go on some unhealthy path and not want the feedback. But, like, right now, I welcome that. Like, if you, as my friend, were to say, hey, me, hey, hey me, hey me, hey, me, hey, Amy, I really feel like right now we're doing a little dance. And that's what even my kids. Therapist. My son had a therapist once, and he always called, don't do the dance. He's inviting you to tango. And you are just. You're. You're like, okay, what time I'll be there. Let's dance.

[Kat]

Let's do it.

[Amy]

Turn the music up. And I would do the dance. And I remember, too, like, Ben and I, when we were working through, like, we were still married and we were going through some stuff with our son and be. I would look at Ben and I'd be like, you're doing the dance. He archers the first. Don't do the dance.

[Kat]

You're like, I can see you're doing the dance.

[Amy]

You're doing the dance. Like, I'm over here. Well, I mean, I would do it, too, but he would probably call me out.

[Kat]

It's. It's easier to see.

[Amy]

It's easier to see it in your other people. So if Ben were here, he would say, oh, yeah. And there's definitely times I would look at Amy and be like, amy, stop dancing. You're doing the dance. And once you start seeing the dance, you're like, okay.

[Kat]

You're like, that dance is not cool.

[Amy]

But that's where sometimes if we're used to chaos or we get a little bit bored, we're kind of like, I kind of feel like dancing.

[Kat]

Which happens. Which does happen. Happens to me.

[Amy]

Guilty.

[Kat]

Yeah, guilty.

[Amy]

Done it.

[Kat]

So as we explain these three roles, and I. I will preface this too. You can do this dance by yourself, and you can just go around and do all these three things by yourself, or you can triangulate somebody and be on this triangle with other people. So you can. As you're listening, you can contextualize this in both ways. There is a role in here that is the victim. And I. I feel like it is very important to always give the preface that this is different. There are times when people are victims of their circumstances. Things have happened to them. There. There is a place in time where you are a victim. That is not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is something that's more closely tied to victim consciousness, which is playing the role of a victim when there is a healthy, easy way out of the situation you're in. So I just don't want to hear. I don't want anybody to hear that we're victim blaming or shaming or anything like that. Because these are. Those are two separate things.

[Amy]

Apples and oranges.

[Kat]

And oranges, Yes. I wish there almost was like a different word word for it. So in the drama triangle. So pattern of unhealthy communication, we get on this thing, we do this dance when we are avoiding or want to avoid asking for what our needs are. Asking for our needs because of a fear around something usually tied to being vulnerable. And I'm going to give some alternate names too, that I like a little better. So there's the victim, the rescuer and the persecutor. The victim. If you're explaining this with families a lot of times all or if I'm explaining this with a client that is going to take this home and talk about it with like her kids or somebody younger, I like to give them the names. Victim is the helpless baby, which I guess we did find another name for it. Then there is the rescuer, which is the bossy helper. And then the persecutor is the blaming bully, which another word for persecutor also is just like the villain. Like they are the villain in this story. So when you hear all of those, is there one that you're like, that one sounds nice. Or that one sounds like, is there one that you're like, I don't want to do that. Or is there one that you're more.

[Amy]

I mean, now earlier we brought up the rescuer and I was like, I don't know that I do that one a lot. And you were like, hmm. And I was like, well, shoot, maybe I do. Which feel free. You have full permission to say whatever you want to say about me. I like with the mics on. I wish I was more. I think it'd be better to be the rescuer out of any of those. Like I would rather show up as the rescuer. Like yes, bossy helper sounds. But I'd rather the bossy helper than the whiny helpless baby. You're saying helpless baby, but I don't know that I would say helpless.

[Kat]

No, they're not.

[Amy]

Yeah, because they're whiny.

[Kat]

Baby.

[Amy]

Your whiny baby. And then because I've been the whiny baby with a entangled in A terrible relationship with a bossy helper. And I was a whiny baby. And then when. When. When I tried to set a boundary about it, they turned me into the persecutor. Yeah, I was so into the drama triangle at the time that I could see it clear as day. I saw it happening. It was unfolding before my eyes. And I remember, like, telling my therapist, I was like, you're not going to believe it. You're gonna believe it. I know for a fact that I stayed healthy in my communication and I stayed on my side of the street. And the response I got back, which I, you know, the response I got back was. Had flipped me. They immediately went. And that's why I know you can dance in the triangle. It's like they immediately went from helper or rescuer to now they're the victim, which I was the victim before. I didn't want to be, but I was choosing to stay there. Like, that was. That was our thing.

[Kat]

You didn't want to be. But also, there is what we called secondary gains. So a lot of times when I'm talking to somebody and they're talking about a pattern of behavior that they're continue to do, and they're like, I don't want to do this anymore. And I say, okay, well, like, what do you get out of it? They're like, I don't get anything. And then I have to ask again, okay, but like, if you did get something, what would it be? Because we don't continuously do something over and over and over again unless there's something that we get.

[Amy]

Oh, I for sure had gains from it. A hundred percent. And also I was avoiding, which is a game for what I really. Yeah, like, I didn't have to really speak up. And. And I can also see in this relationship, like, they would have benefited by speaking up for what they needed too. Like, they were avoiding as well. And I. I hate that for them, we were both doing it well.

[Kat]

And I'm glad that you're saying all that, because the reason I kind of like using the other names is because all of these roles are in their own right. Victim. Nobody's actually getting their needs met here. Nobody is. We're getting a version of our needs met. We're getting that secondary gain. So, like, I might not get if my. My need is to talk about my birthday. I'm struggling to come with an example right here, but my need is to, like, talk about my birthday. By me playing the victim role, I get to gain the idea that, like, I'M not doing anything wrong. And it's like, all your fault. And by you. You didn't do this. But let's say that you were like, nobody cares about your birthday. Then, like, you don't. Like, you end up having, like, the blame is not on you either. You're like, my hands are clean. It. Nobody wants to hear about it. It's not me. You know what I mean? And, like, that's kind of mean.

[Amy]

Like.

[Kat]

Right. I would get my feelings hurt, and then I could blame you for being mean to me, and then we would have a whole, whole other issue that has nothing to do with me talking about my birthday. Right. So let's talk about each role individually, and then we'll come back and I have a really good example I thought of while I was watching a Netflix Christmas movie today. So we're going to come back to that.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

Mary Xmas. Have you watched it?

[Amy]

I've watched it, yeah.

[Kat]

Okay, so then you're going to know. Okay, Actually, we might. I'm going to quiz you. I'm going to ask you to place the roles.

[Amy]

This is the one with Alicia Silverstone.

[Kat]

Yes. Which, like, blast from the past.

[Amy]

All right.

[Kat]

And Melissa Joan Hart.

[Amy]

Yes.

[Kat]

Crazy.

[Amy]

She was her sister. Or is her sister in the movie?

[Kat]

Oh, that was her sister.

[Amy]

I thought so. Well, you might not want to quiz me because. Okay. Was I paying attention? No, no, no. I'm pretty sure that was her sister.

[Kat]

I might not have.

[Amy]

Doesn't matter.

[Kat]

I was doing multiple things anyway. Okay, so let's talk about the persecutor first. So the persecutor is. I think my experience is, like, they get, like, the bad rep in this triangle. Like, they're like the mean one. They're the ones that are causing the problem, essentially. But they're also saying, this is not me, this is you. So if I'm the persecutor, I'm blaming you for whatever the issue is. But if you're not the persecutor, you're then blaming me. We're all trying to shift blame. So then nobody has to do anything. Because if I'm blaming you and you're blaming me, then guess what?

[Amy]

Nothing's getting done.

[Kat]

Nothing. I don't have to change and you don't have to change. And I think that also is a reason why a lot of times we have the same kind of arguments over and over and over again. Because if we do not realize that we are stuck in a cycle of story, we don't realize that we have agency to shift that. And I'm not just going to, like, like, okay, never mind. My story is not real if I don't realize that I'm in this cycle. Does that make sense? Yeah.

[Amy]

But that's why I think talking about the triangle is so helpful, because I was in the cycle for years, but didn't know this concept existed.

[Kat]

Yes.

[Amy]

So. So.

[Kat]

So you're thinking, my story, my story, my story.

[Amy]

Well, I just thought. I just thought, well, this is just how it is. Like, this is just the relationship, and this is our cycle, and this is what we do, and I don't know how to stop it. But then once you realize where you each are and the roles that are being played, then you.

[Kat]

You.

[Amy]

You do have the ability to solve it. And sometimes it might be too far gone to where it's like, yeah, but that's a different conversation. Yeah, it's just interesting. Like, so I'm excited to hear more about what you have to say about it, because I haven't. I guess I probably first learned about it three or four years ago.

[Kat]

I feel like you've known about it for longer.

[Amy]

No.

[Kat]

Oh, no.

[Amy]

I learned about it in my couples therapy with Ben, maybe.

[Kat]

I just. That feels so long ago.

[Amy]

And it was when we were separated. We were not still together, so it was 2021.

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[Ed Helms]

Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here, and hi, I'm Cal.

[IBM Advertiser]

Penn, and we're the hosts of Irsay.

[Ed Helms]

The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the Iheart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Amy]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that, but are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Apple Card Advertiser]

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[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

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[Ed Helms]

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means playing in a football game. Boom. 42. You're going down Doug.

[Kat]

Oh yeah, your price on car insurance.

[Ed Helms]

When you customize and save is going down. Hey.

[Kat]

Limu, what are you doing on their team?

[Ed Helms]

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[Amy]

Liberty. Liberty.

[Kat]

So the persecutor, they're like the bad cop essentially. They're angry. They're very blamey. It's all your fault. The persecutor. Also like if there's ever any like gossip or like trash talking or bad talking. I mean gossip in the sense of like in an ill intentioned way. That's a persecutor role. Like that some of you're being a persecutor if you're, if you're doing that. So if you are with your if there is an argument within your friend group and you're off gossiping and talking about how Susie Q did XYZ and can you believe it, you're being a persecutor. You are blaming another person for an issue or conflict that you have versus going and speaking your needs and talking that out.

[Amy]

So I mentioned earlier, since you're talking about being the actual persecutor that I was then put into the persecutor role when I set a boundary. But I wasn't actually the persecutor. So that makes sense to like, talk about that because I have not. I don't know that I've ever talked that through, like how I, I wasn't. But I was made to be with the response that I got and the, the, the story that was now being told from there. You're not doing what I laid me out as a persecutor. And, and it's just because I shifted the.

[Kat]

Well, because you're fighting over being the victim.

[Amy]

I messed with the game.

[Kat]

So that person doesn't want to be the persecutor. So they're making you the persecutor. But then you, by saying they made me the persecutor is then making that person the persecutor because you guys are both fighting to be the victim. Even though you wouldn't actually admit that in this, in the moment.

[Amy]

To be clear, I never said to. I never responded in a way. I'm just sharing that with you. I never said you're making me the persecutor. I know, I know that.

[Kat]

But in your head that's happening. Does that make sense?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

And what the. And I'm explaining this. You have to think about this in two contexts. You're on this triangle by yourself and you're just traveling around. And then also you can be on this triangle with other people.

[Amy]

Okay?

[Kat]

So the persecutor is somebody who is never going to do anything to fix or solve the problem, but they are going to criticize and find a problem. It's not me, it's you. That's what they say.

[Amy]

That's a persecutor. Okay.

[Kat]

Okay. Nobody wants to be that one for sure. That's the one that people are like, ah, that never be me. No, we also, again, we do this to ourselves as well. So that's persecutor. Then we have the rescuer. Which you also usually have like a start gate position. So there's usually a role that you gravitate towards. And then no matter what, once you're on this, you're going to do it all. So that's just to take some. Like, if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't want to be that way. Just take a deep breath and release the shame. Because if you do one of these, you do all of them and all of us do them. So we're nobody's Alone.

[Amy]

One ticket to Dramatown, please. So you're saying, like, when we, when you hop on the ride, you're going to place that we, we typically.

[Kat]

Oh, start with.

[Amy]

We have a station we typically go to first.

[Kat]

It's a start. Gate's, like, easy for me to get on in that.

[Amy]

I mean, mine's for sure. Victim. Okay, I can hop on there real quick.

[Kat]

I was gonna say, I feel like you are, in my experience of you, which you can also. This can be different. Different experiences. But, like, in my experience of you, I feel like it's. I've seen you easier to jump on in the Rescuer.

[Amy]

Well, that's apparent because you, you said that earlier about me. I'm like, really? Tell me more.

[Kat]

I just see you in that context, but also, like, maybe you were already on the triangle, and I just see you in that rescuer position more. Does that make sense? I get on this triangle usually. Oh, now that I'm, like, revisiting this. I used to always say, like, it's easy for me to get on as the rescuer, but I think I honestly can get on as the persecutor pretty easily. No comment. I don't think.

[Amy]

I don't. I, I think from stories that you.

[Kat]

Tell me, I love to blame somebody.

[Amy]

I see that.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

But not because I've experienced it from you.

[Kat]

Okay. You know what? I love to blame somebody.

[Amy]

You know what I mean?

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Well, you don't like being told what to do.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Ever.

[Kat]

Yeah. So it's like, can you believe this? So, yeah.

[Amy]

But then you, like, come back around. You're rational. It's just.

[Kat]

But I like to get on that train for a little bit. Yeah. So back to the Rescuer. The Rescuer plays like the good cop to the persecutors. Bad cop, they give codependent vibes.

[Amy]

Oh, that's what you thought that was me?

[Kat]

I didn't say that.

[Amy]

I do sometimes give codependent vibes, and.

[Kat]

They end up playing like, a martyr role.

[Amy]

Oh, yeah. I've been a martyr too.

[Kat]

Yeah. So they forego all of their needs to solve somebody else's needs. Is that okay? So you're relating.

[Amy]

This was more so in my marriage at the end of it. And I won't ever forget what one of my therapists said to me. Like, I, I was like, I can't. I can't do that. Like, I, I, I will just stay in this forever. And then she said to me, oh, you sweet martyr.

[Kat]

And.

[Amy]

And I remember I was pacing in my backyard at my other House. Like, I remember exactly. And she has an accent. She goes, oh, you, Mata. And I was like, it almost just clicked. It clicked. And I was like. And that's what I. Either one of us would have been doing in that situation. I mean, been, too. And this isn't just all specific to my marriage. There was a lot of things happening, but I realized, like, oh, wow, okay. Yeah, I need to.

[Kat]

There's a lot of.

[Amy]

Make an actual choice for myself, not just for somebody else, which I was.

[Kat]

Going to say, like, there's a lot of guilt involved in the rescuer, and you use that on yourself. Like, I feel guilty for choosing myself. The problem is, we cannot spend our lives fixing other people's problems. And a lot of times when we're doing this, that other person doesn't really want their problem to be fixed, because if you give them a real solution, then that victim has to actually do something. And we haven't gotten exactly. To the victim, but the victim doesn't actually want to do anything. They want to play the victim. Because if I am the victim, there's nothing I can do. Sorry. But if you give them a solution that's debunked so they'll find an excuse, so then you'll hustle, or then you'll become the persecutor, because you're like, I gave you a solution, and this is your fault, and you're here because of blah, blah, blah. So not that you would say it like that, but that's how you can switch really easy. And I can. I get that. Like, if I'm working really hard to help you in some way, and you keep giving me excuse out of excuse after excuse after excuse, I'm going to get exhausted and frustrated and angry and resentful, and then I might lash out at you, and then I'm going to blame you for me feeling like this, even though I could just be like, okay, you don't want my help. Bye.

[Amy]

Bye.

[Kat]

But that's really hard because of the stories we have around your responsibility, maybe even to this person or this situation or the world. So rescuer is a tough role because you really feel like you are doing the right thing, but you're not. You're not helping, and you're definitely not helping yourself. I love that she called you a sweet martyr.

[Amy]

Oh, you sweet Mata.

[Kat]

And you're like, wait, what?

[Amy]

Okay, it's. We. It's interesting, right? When I thought back to that story, which, I mean, I've told it before, but that was a few years ago for sure. And I'm instantly transported to, like, talking on the phone, pacing in my backyard. Yeah. That exact conversation with her. And there's not many times I can remember, like, exactly where I was and what I was doing when I had a specific conversation, you know?

[Kat]

Well, and also, like, this is because, again, we're all fighting to be the victim in some regard. When you're in that space, you also can flip. You can flip to the persecutor. You also can flip to be the victim of, like, I've tried everything, and nothing works. And then you become this helpless baby, or the whiny baby, as you would say, when really there's a solution, but you just don't want to take it. Okay, so then we have the victim. And when you hear that word victim, again, victim consciousness. We're not talking about actual victims. What kind of comes to mind for you? Like, what feelings do you get when you think about the victim? What things pop into your head? Does your body react?

[Amy]

Okay, well, I can only speak to a personal experience where I feel like. Because you have to understand, when I had the drama triangle revelation, victim mode was definitely where I was dancing a lot. So my brain keeps going to this example. So I'm just gonna roll with it.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

I was definitely in a role.

[Kat]

You were in a what?

[Amy]

In a role? Like a. It was part of the dynamic. So it would.

[Kat]

You're playing a part.

[Amy]

Yes. Like, it would be very. Laying it all out, like, all the things that are going on, like, sort of trauma dumping in a way, but taking up a lot of that space. But I thought that's what I needed to do for connection.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And then there would be, like, rescuing. That would happen. And then that was the. You know, so much so, like, I wasn't able to show up for that person in really any other way. Even when I kept trying. Like, I would try, or I think I'd be trying, but that wasn't my role. So I don't even think they thought that's what I wanted, but deep down, I did. And sometimes I would hang up the phone, I'd be like, why did I just talk about myself for 20 minutes? And all that was going on? Because there was a lot happening, But I just would. Is that making sense of, like, that was the victim role for me, of laying it all out of all the things? And then there was some swooping in to help. So that's fix the situation or make it better. And I don't know that I necessarily needed that. I wasn't looking, but it was just.

[Kat]

But what were you looking for?

[Amy]

Connection.

[Kat]

So you named a story in there. Like, in order to be connected to this person, I had to be this little baby bird who needed somebody to fix them. Or always I'm making this stuff up, but, like, always had a problem that needed to be talked out. I. I have to do this in order to have connection in my life.

[Amy]

It wasn't fun for me. Like, I am aware of it.

[Kat]

You weren't enjoying.

[Amy]

I wasn't enjoying it either. Like, it was very perplexing to me. So then it was also exhausting. And I'm sure they were exhausted, too, and they weren't getting needs met. And so you're right. It's like, if you have the awareness, then you can. We could have fixed it maybe a long time ago, but then it got to where we couldn't fix it. So.

[Kat]

Yeah. So you're having this story around. Like, in order to be connected to this person, I have to play this role. It doesn't feel very good. But you were still, like, the story that you created around the, like, the facts of what were going on in your life was below the line example versus just being able to own this or, I've created this story. It doesn't have to be this way. What would happen if I said to this person, I'm feeling stuck, and this relationship's really important to me, therefore, I think I need XYZ and name something. Who knows? It's. We don't know what would have happened, but it would have given you an opportunity to get off of this triangle, to get out of this dance where you. Even if you. That relationship didn't end up being what you wanted it to be, you didn't have to keep playing that game anymore.

[Amy]

So, yeah, there's a lot I learned in my. That couples therapy, that just helped in a lot of areas in my life.

[Kat]

Yeah. And so the victim is. It's. I mean, they're all interesting roles because essentially we don't want to be any of them. But, like, the victim is the one that we all are. Like, I don't want to be that, but you really, subconsciously, really are wanting to be.

[Amy]

You know, so, you know, the part of me that gets real defensive. Isn't that my victim mode? Yeah.

[Kat]

So, see, well, it depends. The defensiveness can also be like, persecutor. Like, it's not my fault. It's your fault, because it's.

[Amy]

I know that my defensiveness is.

[Kat]

Well, your defensiveness. I think in general, defensiveness could be different things.

[Amy]

My defensiveness is like, we use that dog water example, too. Like, I wasn't really saying, like, it's not my fault, but she was like, would you. Would you like some water for your dog? Now we're going back a few months. People don't even know this story because that's a totally different episode. But a woman offered water to my dog, but I was embarrassed and thought she was, like, judging me for having my dog out on a hot day so I wouldn't accept the water. She walked away, and I was with my boyfriend, and I was just like, oh, she's probably like, like, you idiot, why'd you bring your dog? And he's like, she didn't say that. She just offered you water. Like. So I wasn't saying, it's not your fault or it's not my fault, it's your fault.

[Kat]

Like, it.

[Amy]

My defensiveness wasn't that. I was just getting defensive of, like, that people. I get defensive that I'm being judged.

[Kat]

Nobody was judging you.

[Amy]

Exactly.

[Kat]

Yeah. I think defensiveness can show up in different ways depending on. Yeah. Like, how it's who you are and how it's coming up in that example. Defensiveness in general doesn't just mean this, but good callback.

[Amy]

Shout out.

[Kat]

Shout out to the lady who tried.

[Amy]

To this day, I will say I should have taken the water. I'm sorry, Cara.

[Kat]

Well, now you have learned. So don't get on this triangle with yourself. Give yourself grace. So these are all the roles. Okay.

[Amy]

Hopefully we haven't confused anybody.

[Kat]

Well, it. This is something that, like, is so simple, that it's so confusing, if that makes any sense at all. And it's confusing because we don't. Like, when we think about this, then we're doing the, like, dance, and we're making all these connections. So if you, like, would write it out, it would make perfect sense. I did this, then this happened. Then I did this, then this happened. And you would be able to see it very clearly.

[Amy]

And I would say, if you're just now taking this in and you realize it in a relationship, like, I don't know that right away. I would go to the person and be like, we're in a drama triangle. You're the persecutor, and I'm the rescuer. You know, I'm the helper, and you're mean, like. Or, you know, like. Like, just taking, like, in talking about it in a thoughtful way of, like, hey, I just started thinking about. I listened to this podcast. I just started thinking about this And I'm just reflecting upon some of our latest interactions and like, what are, what's your experience with it? Because here's what I am. And I would, I feel like we might be dancing a little, and I don't. I want to see if you feel the same way. And that way, it's inviting them into it and not that. Like, you've listened to this podcast and come to all these conclusions and now.

[Kat]

You know, name everything.

[Amy]

Or if you are involved in therapy, like, take this to your therapist and see, like, if, like you said, taking down the notes, like, that's what I, I, I had many, many, many sessions after my couples therapy with Ben, with my personal therapist, about my roles and how I was showing up.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And I tried to carefully talk through it before, like, you just.

[Kat]

Well, and you don't have to, because you're going to notice this pattern with people that you don't have intimate relationships.

[Amy]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I don't. I'm so glad you said that. I'm so glad you said that because I made it. Like, you should talk to people about it. But to clarify, there are so many people I am in, have been in dances with, and they don't know.

[Kat]

Right.

[Amy]

So, yeah, they may know and maybe they're not saying anything, but, like, I know that. I know, but it's not worth a conversation.

[Kat]

Well, there's ways to kind of handle this without having to have that conversation. Now, I will say, like, if you have a partner or a really close friend or you're really, you have a really close relationship with a boss or something like that, and it feels safe and natural to talk about this thing that talk about it, because I think there's so much you can learn from having two people communicating about it. And there are ways that you can take. This is all of this drama triangle, really, this purpose of it is to, to show you that you can take ownership of your own life and you can ask for your needs to be met. Because once you get. I don't know if I said this, but the reason a lot of people are fighting to be the victim is because the victim is the one that gets their needs met without asking for them to be met.

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[Kat]

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[Kat]

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[Kat]

Liberty.

[Amy]

Liberty.

[Kat]

Liberty. The reason a lot of people are fighting to be the victim is because the victim is the one that gets their needs met without asking for them to be met. So, like, duh, I want to be that again. These all have versions of victimness in them.

[Amy]

Question, can the rescuer be getting certain needs met? If they have a I want to be involved in fix everything.

[Kat]

Yes. Mentality, they can. And also remember that rescuer is always going to end up as the victim. No matter. I don't know if I said this either. No matter what you start as, you're going to end up as the victim if you don't get off of this triangle.

[Amy]

Okay.

[Kat]

At some point now that will shift again. But, like, you're going to do that. But Yeah, I think when you're talking about rescuing and somebody being like a martyr, there is something that's the secondary gain we get. Right. So.

[Amy]

Or this, like, fulfillment. I'm thinking of people that loved. Like, if you're a two. Like a helper.

[Kat]

But remember the. When you're the rescuer and you're helping the victim, the victim doesn't actually want help. Right. So the fulfillment doesn't usually come. And that's why you then move and.

[Amy]

Then you get exhausted and then that's. And then you start giving the silent treatment.

[Kat]

Yeah. I saw you speaking from experience.

[Amy]

That's what happened to me.

[Kat]

So I also probably do that too. I love a good silent treatment.

[Amy]

So I was. Well, I was talking about you.

[Kat]

So there's a couple ways to get off of this triangle. And is there? Before I go into that. Ooh, no, before I go into that, let's talk about Mary Xmas. That's the name of the movie, right? Mary Xmas.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

Because it's. She's having Christmas with her ex.

[Kat]

Okay, so spoiler alert. If you're waiting to watch this movie that you're gonna have no idea how it ends, because it's very different than every other Christmas holiday movie, then skip forward 60 seconds.

[Amy]

No, that was sarcasm. Yeah, too. Also, it's been out for a few weeks on Netflix, so I thought it was brand new.

[Kat]

I also thought maybe it was like an older movie.

[Amy]

No, it was one of the first releases. So maybe two weeks. Well, by the time this airs, three.

[Kat]

If you haven't watched it yet, that's. We can't do anything about that. So thinking about that movie, do you have any idea of why I would bring that up? Think about the two main characters, the husband and the ex husband. Ex wife.

[Amy]

Well, you learn at some point that she put off some of her dreams and that she wanted to go to Boston or something. And was that like. She seemed like a rescuer.

[Kat]

Yes. So it's this couple. There's a doctor and then she was, I think, architecture or something in that realm. There should these big dreams to have this big career. So she moved with her husband to the small town. She gave up her dreams to build a life with this man. And then he ended up being kind of addicted to his job and would miss out on a lot of stuff. So they end up getting divorced. And then you find throughout the movie that, like, neither of them really wanted to get divorced. They both were still in love with each other, but she was resentful of him because she didn't speak what she really needed. And he was resentful of her because she was doing things that bothered him. But he never really shared any of that. And actually, I can't spoil this movie because I'm only halfway through.

[Amy]

So you don't even know for sure.

[Kat]

I don't know what happens, but I have a feeling that I know what happens. And that's a perfect example of if she would have actually said, hey, I need you to, like, be home more and I want to go back to work and is there a way we can figure this out? And da, da, da, da, da. Who knows? They could have stayed together in the end and maybe that. Maybe they ended up doing that. And if he would have said, hey, there's a couple things that you do at home that make me not want to come home and that's why I'm working more. She could have taken a look in the mirror and looked at what she was doing and say, oh, I can make some concessions here so we can both get our needs met. But they never had that conversation. So they just got divorced. And then they were resentful of each other. And that's a perfect. And she blamed him and he blamed her. And really it was. They were both doing things.

[Amy]

Have you watched All Her Fault on Peacock?

[Kat]

No. Okay, I haven't, because I don't Peacock.

[Amy]

I've started it and this isn't going to be spoiling anything. So I'm not even going to tell you which couple I'm talking about. But I just watched a scene where a husband. And there's multiple husbands in the show. She Works and he works. When she is at home and with the kids and, you know, doing laundry and cooking, taking care of the kids, she's always on the clock. Whenever she's out doing something and he's home with the kids, he's like, when are. When are you back? Like, when am I done? And I just. I was just thinking of relationships and dynamic and how awful that would be with someone. And I was like, you know, this is reality for some people that the wife feels like she's always on. Like, she never. When she's home with the kid, she doesn't call the husband and say, when am I off? So I can go do something else. And it was interesting because.

[Kat]

Yeah. And is there. Is she playing that role of the rescuer and she's taking care of.

[Amy]

Well, definitely paused and was like. Took a deep breath, and I didn't really know where she was going to go with it. And you could tell she just didn't want the conversation or confrontation at the time. And she was like, you know what? You're right. He's like, well, you knew when you married me that I have to have my me time and that I have to go do my things and that I'm better when I've got, you know, time with my friends and this and that. And so she took a deep breath, and she was like, you're right. I should have told you that I had this going on. I'll be home as soon as I can. And, you know, marriages work, and we will get through this. And then she hung up. And I'm like, Dakota Fanning.

[Kat]

Oh, is that. Is that her? Oh, she's in that.

[Amy]

I just said whose role it was, but that's not giving anything away.

[Kat]

You're not giving anything away at all.

[Amy]

I just said I was gonna say which couple it was, but I'm not giving anything. Anything away has nothing to do with anything. They could delete that scene, and the show would be fine.

[Kat]

We believe you.

[Amy]

Thank you.

[Kat]

I didn't know she was in it. I knew it was the girl from Succession.

[Amy]

Yeah, yeah. Shiv.

[Kat]

I never watched that show. I couldn't get into it.

[Amy]

You what? I love success.

[Kat]

Not get into. I watched three episodes, and I was like, this is boring. Snooze. I know. I'm an outlier, okay? But I spoke my needs to Patrick, and I said, I can't do another one.

[Amy]

Okay?

[Kat]

And he watched on his own. Okay, so how to get off of this triangle? So I'm going to give you options here, but my first option is four parts. Notice that you're on it. This is when you're on it with somebody else. Notice that you're on it. Number one, hardest part, you might need some feedback. Or after you kind of. If you are reevaluating kind of your behaviors, you can, you know, draw some diagrams and figure that out. Two, you need to lower your expectations for other people. When I say that, what comes up, you kind of made a face where you like, dang it, or that makes sense.

[Amy]

I didn't make a face about anything. Really.

[Kat]

I didn't think, oh, yeah, okay.

[Amy]

Like, I'm like, okay, check.

[Kat]

Dang it. Well, because most people, when they hear that, they're like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to lower my expectations for people. I want people to rise to the occasion.

[Amy]

Oh, no, no. I think that I have plenty of practice of, like, sometimes just not having.

[Kat]

Oh, you're like, I've done it quite a few times.

[Amy]

Yeah. Like, I think expectations are future resentment at times. So it's not that I don't have standards for things in life or expectations for certain things, but then it's. Maybe it's my co parenting. Like, no, I think that's. We have to. Ben and I started having tons of expectations in certain ways. Like, that's where we had our little mantra of, like, okay, expectations are future resentment. So instead of just expecting or assuming, like, we're gonna ask and we're gonna talk about it.

[Kat]

And also, we have to realize that we are not everybody else. And so the things that make sense in our head and the things that, like, seem best case scenario in our head that work in our head aren't the things that work in everybody else's heads because of the stories that we have versus the stories other people have. So lowering expectations isn't like, okay, go marry somebody you hate. Like, that's not what we're talking about. We're the. The point of this is when I can lower expectations and not expect this for people to fall in line with how I want them to act all the time, I then can start to appreciate the things about them that I couldn't see before because I was so resentful. So if I know somebody's really bad, I'm gonna use me as an example. I'm really bad at remembering your birthday, the date. I know the month, and I always end up doing something, but I can't seem to get that date right. 17th, 19th.

[Amy]

It's March 18th.

[Kat]

So many times. To be clear.

[Amy]

Kat's birthday is December 4th.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

But that has come and gone. Okay.

[Kat]

But I'm not good.

[Amy]

It is now December 9th.

[Kat]

I'm not good at remembering.

[Amy]

And that's okay. Like, I don't hold. I don't have an expectation of you to. I know where you stand and that you care about that you celebrate me. Like, that's not also too. Birthdays have been hard for me. I have Shannon, I have a calendar. Like, there's things in the last five years that I have implemented in my life that help me. But before that, before calendar and then like, have. And even when it comes to the calendar, like having her like my ADD to sit there and enter everybody's birthday reoccurring year after year. Like, that's something that I will give Shannon credit for in that I had. I needed help organizing my life because of my. We both have adhd. Maybe that's why I can empathize with you. And I give grace because I have been that person and it feels horrible forgetting.

[Kat]

Yeah, horrible.

[Amy]

And I have been on the receiving end of no grace with it at all. Like, just anger, disappointment. Valid. Valid. But I know my heart and I'm like, gosh, you. I really do care about this person. I can't believe that that slipped my mind. And it's probably why I don't take it out on you. Like, I get it that I'm not gonna get wrapped up.

[Kat]

You're not gonna make me a persecutor or a villain.

[Amy]

No.

[Kat]

You're not getting on the triangle with me.

[Amy]

No.

[Kat]

And another example that people might relate a little bit more to is like love languages. So if you're in a relationship or like somebody in your family, they have a different love language than you. Like, if somebody is really bad with words, but they are a good gift giver. If you don't lower your expectations, you're like, well, I'm an affirmation person and you have to tell me, xyz, you will get on this triangle every single time you talk to them because you won't be able to receive their love. But if I can lower expectations in the sense that, okay, I'm going to meet you with where you are and this is how you show affection. And love is gift giving. I can receive that. And I can actually appreciate so many things about you now that I'm not blinded by all this resentment. That might fit a little bit. It helps. Okay, so you have notice that you're on it. You're lowering your expectations, then you're creating Boundaries. So at the same time we're like, I am lowering my expectations and able to see all of this stuff. I also might want to protect myself. So I need to create bound. And these are internal boundaries. You don't have to tell the people that you have these boundaries. So if I'm a words of affirmation person and I really need to hear, I go to this person when I'm struggling or I'm sad, or I need reassurance, or I just need to be validated, but they don't know how to do that. I need to create an internal boundary for myself. This is not who I go to for that. I might go to them for celebration in other areas, or I might go to them if I need help picking out a gift for somebody or something like that. There are other things that I can do and go to them. And I can see that more clearly now that I'm not blinded by this resentment over here. But I have to be smart. If this. It's that whole idea of don't go to the hardware store looking for a loaf of bread. If this person does not have bread, right, I can't keep asking them for it because then that's my fault. So I need to create a boundary. And when I'm hungry and I want a loaf of bread, I can't walk into the hardware store.

[Amy]

You got to go to the grocery store.

[Kat]

You gotta go to the grocery store. And that grocery store might be a different person. And because of all that, because that's a lot of work, noticing you're on it and like acknowledging our shortcomings, lowering expectations and creating boundaries is a lot of work. I say it really simply. That's a lot of work. And because that's a lot of work, the fourth thing is self care. Really simple. Just like, be kind to yourself, give yourself grace, soothe yourself in some way. I can say this to you really simply, but the act of lowering expectations and cutting myself off from going to somebody and asking for something that I've really wanted my whole life, that's hard work emotionally. And that's going to take a toll on us. So I need to then care for myself. Yeah, that's. If you're on this triangle with somebody else else, if you're on the triangle with yourself, it's a little bit more simple. And the solution is really to notice you're on it and to reevaluate the stories we're not making out of the context and look for some solutions that might be above the line, which is Very similar to that question that we come back to very often. What does this make possible? Or what big thing is this preparing me for? Those are. Those two questions are above the line questions that can help us reframe a fact.

[Amy]

What? What? What in general is above the light? What? What versus why?

[Kat]

Yeah, yeah. Yes.

[Amy]

Yes. What versus why? Or it's like the. You know, I used the example of Cat saying that when we missed the exit and she's like, this is keeping us from an accident. There's the burnt toast. Is it called the burnt toast theory or the burnt toast?

[Kat]

I don't know. You're teaching me something.

[Amy]

Well, I don't know. It just popped into my head. Well, I feel like maybe we'll end on this note. I feel like maybe it's something like you burnt your toast and it's just.

[Kat]

Workshopping this right now and it delayed.

[Amy]

Your morning, you know, but like, not why did I burn my toes? Oh, maybe like more of like, what is this protecting me from? Like, my burnt. The burnt toast.

[Kat]

It's keeping me late. So then maybe I miss. I don't get in a ruck.

[Amy]

Something like that. Like, it's the burnt. I thought it was a whole thing. Sorry. I thought you might know what it is because it, like, literally just like burnt toast just pop into my head. Isn't that weird? Let me look it up. Burnt toast toast theory. Let me see if it's, like, actually a thing. It's probably not. Brain, I'm be so mad at you. The burnt toast theory is a psychological coping mechanism that suggests minor inconveniences like burning your toast may prevent larger misfortunes. My brain did not do me dirty.

[Kat]

Yeah. You knew it.

[Amy]

I got there. Okay. Thank you, brain. You are awesome. Wonderful. But, like, the whole time you're talking, all of a sudden I was picturing my toaster and burnt toast. Like, I don't. And then I was like, I think there's a burnt toast theory. And then I just said it without really knowing.

[Kat]

You're hoping that I could pick that.

[Amy]

Up and you'd be like, oh, yes, of course, the burnt toaster. Maybe I'm also thinking about it because you're like, can't get a loaf of bread at the hardware store.

[Kat]

Did I say it like that?

[Amy]

No, but I kind of like it.

[Kat]

Okay.

[Amy]

I kind of like that. Yeah, I think that's, you know.

[Kat]

Yeah. Well, that's the drama triangle, or the Cartman triangle, as some people call it. And hopefully it's helpful, especially around this time of year. And it can keep your relationship safe and healthy and get your needs met.

[Amy]

All right, Kat, I hope you had a great birthday. Hope you had the birthday you needed to have.

[Kat]

Thanks. Right.

[Amy]

Okay. And we hope y' all have the.

[Kat]

Day you need to have.

[Amy]

Bye Bye. Big things are happening at your local CVS Extra Big. You don't want to miss these extra big deals and more are coming every two weeks so keep coming back. Use your extra care card to unlock savings every time you shop. ExtraCare is the way to save at CVS. So if you're not a member yet, join for free online or in store and start saving. Visit your local CVS store or cvs.com extra big deals to shop this week's deals.

[Ed Helms]

We finally switched to T Mobile because with them we can be connected here and there.

[Kat]

Dad, the cousins in Mexico have a surprise for you.

[Ed Helms]

And enjoy the gift of staying connected. Switch and start saving today. Get four Samsung Galaxy S25 phones with Galaxy AI on us and four lines for just 25 bucks per line plus non stop talk, text and data between us and Mexico. Visit a store t mobile.com or call 1-800-T-Mobile-1-800-T Mobile.

[Amy]

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[Amy]

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[Amy]

Running out of treats.

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[Amy]

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[Kat]

There's hills.

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[Ed Helms]

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[Amy]

Well, almost.

[Ed Helms]

Almost anything. You can't get a running back, but baby back ribs. Yes. Uber Eats official on demand food delivery partner of the NFL.

[Kat]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.