The Bobby Bones Show – "FEELING THINGS: Understanding the Drama Triangle: Why We Play Victim, Rescuer & Persecutor"
Date: December 14, 2025
Hosts: Amy & Kat
Podcast Segment: "Feeling Things"
Episode Overview
In this candid and insightful episode, Amy and Kat offer an accessible, high-level overview of the Drama Triangle—a model describing three interconnected roles (Victim, Rescuer, Persecutor) that people often fall into during conflict and unhealthy communication, especially during emotionally charged times like the holidays. Through personal stories, relatable examples, and laughter, they examine how these dynamics play out in everyday life and share ideas for breaking the cycle to pursue healthier, more direct communication.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Introduction to the Drama Triangle
[03:47 – 04:14]
- The Drama Triangle, originally conceptualized by Stephen Karpman, identifies three roles people unconsciously assume in relational conflict:
- Victim: The helpless or powerless one
- Rescuer: The over-helper or fixer
- Persecutor: The blame-shifter or critic
- The purpose? To better recognize these roles in oneself and others, especially during family gatherings or stressful holidays.
“This is just shallow dive...you know what you need to know by staying in the kitty pool where it's safe.” – Kat [04:10]
2. Fact vs. Story: Setting the Stage
[16:44 – 22:45]
- Fact vs. story: Most of what creates drama is not the facts themselves, but the stories we tell ourselves about them.
- Fact: Unquestionably true data, e.g., “I have not been able to get pregnant on my own.”
- Story: The narrative layered onto those facts (empowering or limiting).
- Stories can be "above the line" (positive, empowering) or "below the line" (fearful, limiting).
“Most of what we’re talking about is the context. We’re usually talking in story versus just talking about the facts of our lives.” – Kat [16:50]
“Our stories also help us make sense of the world, so we usually have a level of story that we go with." – Kat [19:15]
- Examples are shared: Kat’s infertility (stories of hope vs. hopelessness), Amy’s divorce (stories of shame vs. resilience).
“I am divorced. Period. That’s a fact… Am I now worthy of another relationship?... That’s a story though.” – Amy & Kat [27:45-27:47]
3. The Dance of the Drama Triangle
[31:56 – 36:42]
- The triangle is a byproduct of avoiding direct, vulnerable requests for needs to be met.
- All humans (no exceptions!) sometimes fall into these roles.
- The “dance” can involve just yourself, or multiple people.
“I have literally been every character, all three. ...sometimes I don’t know exactly in the moment when I’m doing it.” – Amy [15:37]
“Once you see it, you almost can’t unsee it – unless, sometimes, you’re in it.” – Amy [32:46]
- Alternate role names suggested for clarity:
- Victim = "Helpless Baby"
- Rescuer = "Bossy Helper"
- Persecutor = "Blaming Bully" or "Villain"
4. Exploring Each Role in Depth
[36:42 – 55:17]
- Persecutor (Blaming Bully/Villain):
- Blames others, denies responsibility, can include gossip/trash talk.
- Not proactive about finding solutions, just blames.
“The persecutor... they get the bad rep in this triangle... They’re like the mean one.” – Kat [40:56]
- Rescuer (Bossy Helper):
- Takes on other people's problems, martyrs self, enables the victim.
- Often rooted in a need for worth, control, or to avoid their own feelings.
“They forego all of their needs to solve somebody else’s needs. ...they end up playing like a martyr role.” – Kat [51:28]
“Oh, you sweet martyr.” – Amy recalling therapist’s words [51:53]
- Victim (Helpless/Whiny Baby):
- Feels powerless, gets needs met indirectly by inviting others to rescue.
- Even the Rescuer and Persecutor eventually become Victims (“all roads lead to Victim”).
"The victim is the one that gets their needs met without asking for them to be met...duh, I want to be that!" – Kat [66:43]
- Why we play these roles: To avoid vulnerability, asking directly, or confronting uncomfortable emotions.
- Secondary gains: We get "something" out of each role (attention, validation, feeling right) even when it’s ultimately unhelpful.
5. How the Triangle Appears in Real Life & Media
[68:18 – 73:12]
- Pop culture example: Netflix holiday movie "Mary Xmas" (no big spoilers).
- Characters who, instead of stating needs openly, assign blame or silently resent—leading to prolonged unhappiness.
- Amy gives another TV example highlighting household gender roles and expectations ("All Her Fault" on Peacock).
- These stories echo real-life patterns where honest communication is replaced with blaming, rescuing, or suffering in silence.
6. Breaking the Cycle — Getting Off the Triangle
[73:12 – 80:28]
- Practical Steps:
- Notice you're on it. Awareness is step one—may require reflection or feedback.
- Lower your expectations for how others “should” behave (to reduce resentment).
- “Expectations are future resentment at times.” – Amy [74:11]
- Set internal boundaries. Know which relationships can meet which needs; don’t go to a “hardware store for bread.”
- Self-care. Don’t beat yourself up for falling into these patterns. Practice self-compassion.
- If you’re unsure how it's showing up, therapy can be invaluable for working through patterns.
“Internal boundaries... you don’t have to tell the people that you have these boundaries... Don’t go to the hardware store looking for a loaf of bread. If this person does not have bread, I can’t keep asking them for it because then that’s my fault.” – Kat [79:09]
7. How to Invite Change Without Blame
[60:39 – 62:16]
- When you recognize a drama triangle pattern in a relationship, introduce it gently:
“I just started thinking about this… I feel like we might be dancing a little, and I want to see if you feel the same way.” – Amy [61:28]
- Use therapy as a neutral, expert resource to explore these patterns without antagonism.
8. Above the Line Thinking & Burnt Toast Theory
[80:28 – 82:04]
- Shift from “Why me?” to “What does this make possible?”
- Burnt Toast Theory: When something inconvenient happens, choose to see it as protecting you from an unseen greater harm (above-the-line story).
"The burnt toast theory is a psychological coping mechanism that suggests minor inconveniences like burning your toast may prevent larger misfortunes." – Amy [81:54]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the universality of the triangle:
“We are wired to go below the line... we had to be aware of our surroundings... it’s that same idea that fear helps us protect ourselves...” – Kat [20:37]
-
On personal stories and humor:
“I just wanted to say I didn’t really want to talk about my birthday. I think I just wanted to say I’m feeling excited because currently I am feeling excited.” – Kat [12:38]
"If you hop on the ride [the triangle], we typically have a station we go to first... mine’s for sure victim." – Amy [49:50] -
On breaking out of the triangle:
“The purpose of [the drama triangle] is to show you that you can take ownership of your own life and you can ask for your needs to be met.” – Kat [62:22]
-
On above-the-line stories:
“When we missed the exit... this is keeping us from an accident... it's just a way of looking at it above the line.” – Amy [28:30]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [04:10] – Amy & Kat's “kitty pool” (at-a-glance) intro to the triangle
- [16:44] – Fact vs. Story explained
- [19:15] – How above/below the line stories shape our lives
- [27:45] – Amy explores divorce fact vs. story
- [36:42] – Deep dive into Persecutor role
- [51:28] – Amy’s “martyr” moment and the Rescuer role
- [55:36] – Amy discusses her experience in the Victim role
- [73:12] – 4 Steps to get off the triangle
- [80:28] – Burnt Toast Theory & reframing perspective
Conclusion & Takeaway
The episode closes with a reminder that understanding and stepping out of the Drama Triangle requires self-awareness, intentionality, and vulnerability—but brings freedom and healthier connections. The holidays, layered with stress and family history, are the perfect time to become more conscious of these dynamics.
“You can’t get a loaf of bread at the hardware store… you’ve got to go to the grocery store… And that grocery store might be a different person.” – Kat [79:09]
Final note:
If you find yourself in a drama triangle, remember to reflect, reframe your stories, and communicate your needs directly. It’s not about blame—it’s about owning your part and choosing a healthier dance.