“I Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist” | Frank Turek

Summary

Podcast Summary: “I Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist” | Frank Turek on The Bobby Bones Show

Introduction

In this episode of “The Bobby Bones Show,” host Granger Smith welcomes renowned Christian apologist Frank Turek as his guest. Released on March 3, 2025, the conversation delves deep into the foundations of Christian apologetics, addressing common misconceptions about the role of apologists, the importance of morality grounded in faith, and strategies for engaging with atheists effectively.

Football Banter

The episode opens with a light-hearted exchange about football preferences, highlighting a playful theological debate:

• Frank Turek [00:04]: “I should be a giant fan. And both of our teams stink.”
• Granger Smith [01:41]: "It’s a theological difference we have here?"

This banter sets a collegial tone, illustrating how personal interests can intersect with deeper discussions.

Defining Apologetics

Granger Smith emphasizes the necessity for Christians to engage in apologetics, challenging the notion that not everyone is equipped to defend their faith:

• Granger Smith [06:33]: “Everyone should be an apologist... But some are better than others.”
• Frank Turek [07:13]: “Nothing goes to the heart without first going through the head.”

Frank clarifies that apologetics are not about apologizing but about defending and presenting the truth of Christianity, rooted in the Greek origin of the word from 1 Peter 3:15.

Frank Turek's Journey to Apologetics

Frank shares his personal journey from Catholic upbringing to becoming a leading apologist:

• Frank Turek [04:28]: “I came to Faith through apologetics... I read Josh McDowell’s books and realized Christianity is true.”
• He recounts meeting Norman Geisler, moving to Charlotte for seminary, and co-authoring “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist.”

Belief That vs. Belief In

A significant portion of the discussion distinguishes between “belief that” knowledge and “belief in” personal trust:

• Frank Turek [07:54]: “There’s a difference between belief that and belief in.”
• Granger Smith [07:55]: “Belief that is intellectual. Belief in is not just intellectual, it’s also emotional.”

Frank explains that while many acknowledge the existence of God intellectually, true faith requires a personal trust in Him, akin to trusting evidence in relationships.

Morality Without God

The conversation addresses the foundational role of God in establishing objective morality:

• Frank Turek [23:06]: “He [Costi] doesn’t have a moral ground if there is no God, to say that sleeping with your girlfriend is right or wrong.”
• Granger Smith [23:14]: “Costi thinks slavery is wrong but has no moral standard without God.”

Frank argues that without a divine moral lawgiver, morality becomes subjective, leading individuals to justify immoral actions based on personal preferences rather than objective standards.

Engaging with Atheists: The Costi Story

Frank recounts his extensive dialogue with an atheist named Costi, illustrating the challenges and strategies in apologetic conversations:

• Frank Turek [16:01]: “If Christianity were true, would you believe it?”
• Costi [30:04]: Ultimately rejects the offer, highlighting the resistance atheists often have toward accepting faith.

This narrative underscores the importance of understanding underlying motivations and the difficulty in persuading those who actively resist belief in God.

Defense of God's Actions in the Bible

Addressing criticisms of God’s morality, especially concerning actions in the Old Testament:

• Frank Turek [25:22]: “By what moral standard are you saying that’s wrong?”
• He contends that God's actions are just judgments, appropriate for the Creator, contrasting human moral limitations.

Frank also points out the literary and contextual nuances in scriptures, suggesting that some harsh commands might be exaggerated language typical of the ancient Near Eastern context.

Strategies for Apologetics

Frank outlines effective methods for engaging in apologetic discourse:

• Frank Turek [37:15]: “Start asking questions like that and see what they say.”
• Emphasizes asking foundational questions about existence, morality, and the universe’s fine-tuning to lead conversations toward recognizing the need for a divine cause.

He advises focusing on cause-and-effect reasoning to demonstrate that the universe's orderliness points to an intelligent designer.

Experiences Debating Christopher Hitchens

Frank shares his encounters with the late atheist Christopher Hitchens, highlighting the challenges of debating someone who often diverted from the core arguments:

• Frank Turek [40:53]: “Christopher got up and started talking about what a bad person Mother Teresa was.”
• Criticizes Hitchens for not addressing the theological propositions directly, instead using rhetoric to evade fundamental questions.

These debates exemplify the difficulties apologists face when opponents do not engage straightforwardly with the substantive arguments.

Addressing the Problem of Evil and Ethics

A core segment focuses on the problem of evil and how it relates to the existence of a benevolent God:

• Frank Turek [24:36]: “If God were to end evil at midnight tonight, would any of us be alive at 1201?”
• He argues that God’s allowance of evil preserves human free will, essential for genuine love and moral responsibility.

Frank distinguishes between God’s just judgment and human morality, asserting that divine actions are inherently different due to His sovereignty and perfect nature.

The Gospel Clarification

Frank emphasizes the centrality of the Gospel in Christian faith, differentiating it from social justice narratives:

• Frank Turek [50:44]: “Jesus came to be the sacrifice, the lamb, to take your sins and give you His righteousness.”
• Clarifies that Jesus’ mission was to offer salvation and eternal justice, not primarily to instigate social reforms.

This clarification helps listeners understand that the Gospel’s focus is on spiritual redemption rather than solely on ethical or societal changes.

Practical Advice for Apologists

Frank provides actionable advice for Christians looking to engage in apologetics:

• Focus on foundational arguments: existence of truth, God, miracles, and resurrection.
• Address common objections categorized as the four E’s: Ethics, Evil, Evolution, and Eternity.
• Utilize resources like his book “Stealing from God” and the cross-examined.org platform for structured responses.

He encourages continuous learning and practicing questioning techniques to effectively engage skeptics.

Concluding Remarks

The episode wraps up with mutual appreciation and reflections on maintaining physical and intellectual sharpness for effective ministry:

• Granger Smith [59:54]: “You certainly can [be in ministry and music].”
• Frank Turek [60:32]: Discusses the importance of health in sustaining endurance for long discussions and debates.

Frank hints at upcoming projects, including the book “The War on Reality,” aimed at countering modern misconceptions and defending the Christian worldview.

Notable Quotes

• Frank Turek [07:13]: “We’re supposed to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind.”
• Frank Turek [17:57]: “Natural laws come from lawgivers, just like every law comes from a lawgiver.”
• Frank Turek [37:15]: “If there is no God, why do you spend all your time fighting him?”
• Frank Turek [50:44]: “Jesus came as the sacrifice. I came to take your sins from you and then give you my righteousness.”

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of Christian apologetics through Frank Turek’s expert insights. It underscores the necessity of intellectual engagement in faith, the pivotal role of objective morality, and effective strategies for defending Christianity in contemporary discourse. Listeners gain valuable perspectives on navigating theological debates, understanding the interplay between belief and trust, and the importance of maintaining both mental and physical readiness in their spiritual journey.

Transcript

[Frank Turek]

Ranger, how you doing?

[Granger Smith]

I'm doing great, sir. How are you?

[Frank Turek]

Just swell. Where are you? You Nashville. Are you Texas.

[Granger Smith]

I'm in Texas, outside of Austin.

[Frank Turek]

Oh, all right. We were just in Austin when we were in Austin, like November. We're doing an event there at Hill Country Bible Church.

[Granger Smith]

Okay, sure. I know it well. Well, next time we, we should get together. That happens again.

[Frank Turek]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So how do you like doing the, the podcast and ministry thing?

[Granger Smith]

You know, I love it. I. I told, I told Ant man this morning. I said I am, I am giddy this morning. I've got Frank Turk coming on the podcast.

[Frank Turek]

Oh, whoop dee doo. Yeah. I wish my kids thought that I'm giddy, so.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah. In that aspect, you know, I love it. I've done the podcast for a long time, but we just opened it up to guest.

[Frank Turek]

Right.

[Granger Smith]

Really recently? Last few months.

[Frank Turek]

Oh, yeah. Oh, okay.

[Granger Smith]

So you, you were at the top of that list.

[Frank Turek]

Oh, great. Happy to be on. Thanks for having me.

[Granger Smith]

We rolling it?

[Frank Turek]

We're rolling.

[Granger Smith]

Okay. Well, Frank, thank you so much for. It's. It's such an honor that you're. You would willing, you're willing to give up some time and be on the podcast today.

[Frank Turek]

My pleasure, Granger. Thanks for having me. Glad you're having guests on now, otherwise this wouldn't happen.

[Granger Smith]

That's. That's right. You know, I want to tell you, though, before we get started, I think we, we have a. We have a fundamental difference. And, and I think for fairness of the conversation that we'll have, we should, we should get it out of the way. That way we kind of know where we stand as, as we, as we discuss things. I am a Dallas Cowboys fan. Grew up in Dallas.

[Frank Turek]

Well, if you're from Dallas, you ought to be a Cowboys fan. You should be. And I'm from New Jersey. I should be a giant fan. And both of our teams stink.

[Granger Smith]

It's very unfortunate. Now, is that a theological difference we have here?

[Frank Turek]

Well, I do say that whenever the Cowboys win, it's living proof that Satan is alive and well. Yeah, Yeah, I do say that. It's not a fact.

[Granger Smith]

I think I've heard you say that before.

[Frank Turek]

Although, although Jerry Jones does give the Salvation army, so I have to, I have to give him that.

[Granger Smith]

Okay.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah.

[Granger Smith]

I don't think it's enough for me. I wish we could do away with Jerry Jones and keep the Salvation Army. I think we could do that.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah. Well, he just likes to be too involved, I think, in day to day ops. What was I Reading recently, some, some former Cowboy said that so much of being a Cowboy is the extracurricular stuff you need to do, like the photos and the meet and greets and all that. It wasn't as focused on football as it needed to be.

[Granger Smith]

I think you're right. I think that explains a lot.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah.

[Granger Smith]

And yeah, growing up in Dallas, it's unfortunate that I'm a Cowboys fan and, But I won't hold the Giants thing against you because, because you're from there as well. You didn't, you didn't, you didn't choose the Giants. The Giants chose you.

[Frank Turek]

That's right. I was there. It was my dad's team, so what was I going to do?

[Granger Smith]

Yeah, that's right. Well, we've, we've been apologizing for our football teams, which, which brings me to, to a point, because it's funny, I had someone recently say somehow something about Christian apologist came up and somebody commented and said, it is so sad that Christians need to designate people to apologize for what they have done to the world.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, that's pretty silly. Isn't. Goes to show you that's really our fault that we don't even explain what it is. You know, and people think that we're apologizing when in fact it comes from a Greek word which means to defend. It comes from 1st Peter 3:15. Always ready to give an answer, give a reason for the hope they have.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

So it's not, we're not apologizing. We're, we're actually saying here's the evidence we have. And, you know, if a person was astute, they would recognize the word apologist because it's used politically all the time. Yeah, he's a Trump apologist or he's a Harris apologist or somebody like that. You know, actually, there weren't very many Harris apologists. I have to correct myself, but you get the idea.

[Granger Smith]

I get the idea.

[Frank Turek]

I mean, there are people who are, you know, saying that I'm advocating for this politician or this political position. So it's the same thing in Christianity. We're trying to give evidence that what we think about Christianity is indeed true. That in Christianity is indeed true. That's, that's what apologetics means.

[Granger Smith]

When did you first start calling yourself an apologist?

[Frank Turek]

I'm sorry, I can't tell you. Well, I don't know if I would call myself one. I, I, I came to Faith through apologetics. So I, I was brought up in New Jersey and I was Catholic because it's the law. You're either Catholic, Jewish, or you don't care if you're from New Jersey. I went to Catholic high school, and I always believed in God because I knew there had to be a first cause.

[Granger Smith]

But.

[Frank Turek]

But I didn't know who Jesus was. And it wasn't until I went into the Navy and was down in flight school in Pensacola, Florida, that I met the son of a Methodist minister who also happened to be a Dallas Cowboy fan.

[Granger Smith]

Okay, okay.

[Frank Turek]

And it is theological. Yeah. He turned out later to be a pastor. And I kept asking him questions, and he finally said, look, you just need to get Josh McDowell books. Evidence demands a verdict, and more than a carpenter. So I read those books. Those books were written, like, in the 70s, and they've been updated since then. In fact, I was involved in one of the updates, ironically. But in any event, I read those books and said, wow, Christianity is true. And then when I got out of the Navy, I happened providentially to meet Norman Geisler, who was the Michael Jordan of apologetics at the time, and he was starting a seminary here in Charlotte, North Carolina. So in 1993, my wife and three kids and I moved to Charlotte to go to seminary because there was no Internet, you couldn't take seminary online. And so that's how I got involved in apologetics. And he and I wrote a couple of books. One of them is called I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

And so. And then I started a ministry called cross examined.org where we go to colleges, high schools, and churches and present the evidence, largely from that book, that Christianity is indeed true.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah, it's fascinating because you are with the Lord. Is. The Lord has gifted you in this way, for sure. I mean, everyone should be an apologist. You know, we're all called. The church. Should all. We should all be apologists. But I think we could admit that some are better than others. And the Lord has gifted you, certainly in that, I believe. I would call it intellectual worship is.

[Frank Turek]

Some say that. They say that, yeah.

[Granger Smith]

I think when I see you on stage and I see you traveling and you're on all these. In these college campuses, and you're. You're defending the faith and you're doing it. You might not think in a patient way, but I believe you're extremely patient. And to me, that is worship. That is a form of.

[Frank Turek]

Oh, I thought you were using it. Like, some people will say that apologists are worshiping their intellect.

[Granger Smith]

I do not mean that. I do not mean that.

[Frank Turek]

Okay, all right, all right. Yeah, Some Will say that. I see what you're saying. Well, yeah, we're supposed to love the Lord. You got with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. Mind, right. And nothing goes, nothing gets to the heart without first going through the head.

[Granger Smith]

That's right.

[Frank Turek]

So we're. If we bypass the head on the way to the heart, that can be problematic because if you follow your emotions or your impulses, you're going to wind up in a very dark place. Of course, the Bible says guard your heart, doesn't say follow your heart, says guard your heart, because everything you do flows from it. That's Proverbs 4:23, which I think is the second most important verse in the Bible for today's culture other than the Gospel. Because, you know, our culture thinks, oh, follow your heart. No, no, no, no, no, guard it, guard it. Because if you follow it without reason or without moral restraint, you're going to wind up addicted, broken, alone, and probably prematurely dead if you follow your heart without moral restraint. And yet that's what our culture tells us to do.

[Granger Smith]

Amen.

[Frank Turek]

Right?

[Granger Smith]

Yeah. Mark 12:30 is where Jesus adds mind to our commandment, to love our Lord our God. Jesus adds mind. It's fascinating that he does that and it makes perfect sense. And that's where I'm saying, this intellectual worship. Actually, that's a compliment. I'm saying in a good way. I believe that a form of worship should be exercising the gift of the mind that has been given to us so that we could examine the evidence. Not in a way, really not in a way for us to be reborn and to receive new hearts, but really it's an overflow of the new heart that has been given to us in the new birth, that we then go to the world and say, look, look and see the evidence. It's clear, it's all around you. This is what Paul does in Romans 1.

[Frank Turek]

That's right. And I think there's a difference as well that might be helpful to people. The difference is the difference between belief that and belief in belief, that is getting evidence that God exists, that Jesus rose from the dead, that the Bible is telling the truth. But all the belie that in the world won't get your moral transgressions forgiven for that. You got to go from belief that to belief in. There's a difference. Even. Even James, the half brother of Jesus, who wrote that little book in the New Testament called James. Oh, good, you're good. You're with me. All right. Even he said. He said even the demons believe that God exists. But they tremble. You know, demons know that God exists better than we do because they're in the spiritual realm, but they don't trust in Him. There's a difference. Because there's a difference between belief that and belief in. In fact, we know this in relationships. When I first met my wife 40 years ago, I got evidence that she would be a good wife. But all the evidence in the world didn't make her my wife. I had to take a step of trust in her to ask her to be my wife. And in a momentary lapse of judgment, she said yes. See, that's the difference between belief that and belief in. One is of the head. Believe that. But belief in is not only of the head, it's of the heart. After you know that Jesus is the Savior, trust in him. And by the way, John puts belief that and belief in into one verse. It's the last verse of chapter 20. I'm paraphrasing. He says in the Gospel, he says these things were written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Savior and that by believing in him, you may have life in his name. You see, he's putting belief that and belief in into one verse. In other words, he's saying, look, I wrote the Gospel and all these miracles in it, and what Jesus said and did so you could know that he's the Savior. But then you can go from belief that to belief in. I mean, you can know that something's true and still not assent to it. Right. We do that all the time. Right. You know, we know things are true and we don't want it's inconvenient, we want to avoid it. We suppress the truth, as Paul said in Romans, Chapter one. So there's a lot of belief that out there that we suppress. But if we're open to belief that, it's easy to move on to belief in. And belief that is intellectual. Belief in is not just intellectual, it's also emotional. Emotional. By the way, you said something earlier too, I want to mention. You know, you said everyone ought to be an apologist because we're commanded to be an apologist. And people say, I'm not an apologist. No, everybody is. You just might not be a good one. It's like when people say, I'm not a theologian. No, you are a theologian. You just might not be a good one. Right. Everybody has some sort of belief about God. You know how people always caveat that. They say, well, I'm not a theologian. Well, okay, you actually are. You just might be. It Might not be an accomplished one. Right. You might not know enough. Everybody has some sort of belief of what, who God is and what he, what he does and why we're here. Everyone has some sort of belief about that.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

They may not. They may have evidence for it, they might not. They might have thought about it, they might not. But everybody's a theologian of some kind. Even atheists are.

[Granger Smith]

Theologians ask who Jesus is and instantly they're giving you theology when they answer that question.

[Frank Turek]

That's right, everybody's giving you theology. An atheist is, there's no God. That's a theological conclusion, that there is no God. They're all theological conclusions.

[Granger Smith]

I heard you say something interesting one time about when you're talking about someone being an apologist and someone says, I'm not an apologist or I'm not a good one. And you said, well, what happens when. Honestly I don't remember the exact illustration you used, but say what happens when your son gets diagnosed with some kind of disease and suddenly you begin to research and study and you learn everything you can about that disease. And similarly that happens in apologetics. I remember specifically when this happened to me. It was several years ago. I saw a comment on social media by a guy and his name was Costi. Unfortunately his full name was Constantine. He's an atheist with the unfortunate name of Constantine. But he comments on here and someone was talking about a worship service and he said, I think the big over dramatized performance based worship services, I think they're actually manipulating people. And I commented and I knew he's an atheist. And I commented, I said, you know, I agree with you on this at some level, I do. And then we started DMing each other. That turned into we were talking to each other on Signal app and we're talking about the faith. He is an atheist, which I, I don't know if I've ever met a true atheist that can stay consistent in their beliefs because in, in my mind, a true atheist would say we're all pond scum. You have, you could do whatever you want. It's all an illusion and I don't really care. You know, we have one life and it nothing matters. And, and, but no one stays consistent to that because they want to.

[Frank Turek]

Nobody can live that.

[Granger Smith]

No one can live that.

[Frank Turek]

No one can live that. Yeah.

[Granger Smith]

So this guy Costi, ultimately what he's doing is everyone, every true atheist, wants to advocate for, to keep something they're doing. Costi, in his case, he wanted to keep sleeping with his girlfriend and he didn't want his mother who was a Christian in Germany telling him he couldn't sleep with his girlfriend anymore. He didn't want to hear that. So he, he builds a theodicy for atheism. So we're taught with this lasted Frank for over a year and a half. Back and forth, back and forth. Sometimes he would get angry and he wants to argue about slavery in the Bible. And I'd say, I'm happy to discuss this with you. He wants to talk about all these issues, the wars that, you know, Christians have caused, the slaughter that Christianity has caused. And I'm happy to discuss all of this with him. We go back and forth a year and a half go goes by and, and finally I said, what would it, what would it take to convince you? You know, what would it take for you to believe? Because he kept, he keeps saying things like if God wants to meet me to believe, he'll give me something to make me believe. I said, okay, what would that be? Just hypothetically because God's given you a lot, what would that be? And he goes, I don't know. I said, what if, what if you saw a video of the Resurrection? He goes, that would be tampered with. I know the video would be tampered. I said, of course, of course you would say that. So then, so then I pulled a Dr. Frank Turek and I said, costi, if Christianity was true, would you believe it? And he goes, what does true mean? I said, outside of your understanding, outside of time and space, it is true. Christ died on the cross and was resurrected and walked among the people and said, turn from yourself and look to me and be saved. If that happened, would you believe it? He goes, no, I wouldn't believe that. Then I said, then brother, our conversation is finished. We could go no further. After a year and a half, I tell you, if it's true and you say no, then what are we talking about? And then I think of you.

[Frank Turek]

He was, as you say, just, just looking for a way to validate the lifestyle he wanted to live. Now to be honest, Christians can do that too, right? Christians might have not have good evidence for what they believe, but they want to convince themselves it's right. So we have to all be aware that we might be self deluding ourselves. However, I think first of all, when people say there's no evidence for review, I simply ask that, well, first of all, why is there evidence for anything not just for Christianity? Why is this a world that's orderly where we can discover cause and effect relationships and why do we have a mind that allows us to do that? I mean, what explains that? I've noticed that atheists will say, if you ask them, where did your brain come from? They'll say, well, it came from blind forces coming together and putting it together. And to quote my friend John Lennox, John Lennox, when he asked people that question, you know, where did your mind or your brain come from? They say it's a mindless process. And he says, and you trust it. Why would you trust something that. Why would you trust something that came from a mindless process? Right. Like suppose a computer got put together by a, by a tornado raging through a junkyard. Would you trust anything it told you? Of course you wouldn't. Right. First of all, it wouldn't happen that way. But even if it did, it's not designed. Why do you use. Why do you say that? You are not designed. And the apparatus you're using to say is not designed isn't designed either. So why would you think what you're saying is true? Look, is it more likely that your mind is the result of an undesigned process, your brain, which produces your mind, or is it more likely that your mind was made in the image of the great mind so you could know truths outside side of your skull, including the great mind himself? Yeah, that's more likely.

[Granger Smith]

And they say to that. They say, this is God of the gaps theory. Frank, you're claiming a God?

[Frank Turek]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, I would say it's not a God of the gaps theory. It's not that we just haven't found a natural explanation for the brain or the mind. It's that the brain and the mind are positive evidences for an intelligent being. Just like if you're walking along the beach and you see John loves Mary in the sand, you don't just lack a natural explanation for that. You do lack a natural explanation. But John loves Mary in the sand is also positive evidence for an intelligent being. And a mind is evidence for an intelligent being. You don't just lack in that you do. But it's not just that. It's positive evidence for. So it's not a God of the gaps argument. We're not arguing from what we don't know, we're arguing from what we do know. We do know that messages come from minds. And in every cell in our body, There's a message 3.2 billion letters long. Okay, where do messages go? They don't. They don't happen by natural forces. They don't originate from natural forces. They may be produced, reproduced through natural forces. Yes, that happens. You know, life gives forth life, but life itself, where does that come from? It's not from the wind, the rain, it's not from the four fundamental forces, gravity, strong and weak nuclear forces, and electromagnetism. There's something else going on here. And by the way, even if you were to say that everything came from those four forces, where did those four forces come from?

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

And why are they so persistent and consistent? Natural laws come from lawgivers, just like every law comes from a lawgiver. And so the very apparatus. Even if you were to make a case, I saw you did a podcast, I just saw the title for it, on evolution. Even if one could make the case that macroevolution is true from the Goodyu via the zoo. Right. There's no intelligence behind it. Even if you could make that case, the natural laws that drive evolution are evidence of a mind. Not just a mind that created the laws, but a mind that sustains these laws. Right now this is the Aristotle Aquinas argument that says the world as it operates right now needs a present cause. Why is everything so orderly? Why does it do the same thing over and over again? Why can we ascertain truths about the real world and cause and effect relationships outside of our skull? Because this universe was created and is sustained by a mind. That's how we can do science, by the way. That's how we, that's how we find cause and effect. We find cause and effect because this world is orderly, a world of orderly cause and effect. And our minds are oriented to discover that.

[Granger Smith]

You've read a lot of C.S. lewis, mere Christianity.

[Frank Turek]

Oh, C.S. lewis is. Yeah, he's one of my favorites. C.S. lewis and John Lennox has written on this. Ed Faser, who's a Catholic apologist, has written on this. I wrote it on a book called Stealing from God. Why Atheists Need God to Make Their Case. Yeah, I think actually the best arguments for God are not even most of the arguments I use. I think the best arguments for God are the metaphysical arguments that take a while to explain and you need some sort of philosophical background to understand them. They're not the kind of argument you can give in a one hour lecture. Yeah.

[Granger Smith]

Or much less. Having someone at a college campus with a microphone ask you a 30 second question and you under a time constraint. I have to give them an answer in two minutes. It's so difficult to do. But do you think you keep getting the same questions? I mean, maybe there's eight or Nine questions you could possibly get, and you must.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah. They fall into categories. And on our Cross examined app, two words in the App Store, cross examined, we have a quick answer section and we point out that there are four questions you need to answer to show that Christianity is true. And there are four objections you're going to get or four categories of objections. The four questions you need to answer are, does truth exist? Does God exist? Are miracles possible? And is the New Testament telling us the truth about the resurrection? Because if truth exists, if God exists, if miracles are possible, and Jesus rose from the dead, mark it down. Christianity is true. Right. It's easy to show that Christianity is true if those four questions are answered. Yes. Now, the four objections you're going to get to saying Christianity is true are what I call the four E's. You're going to get questions on ethics, you're going to get questions on eternity, you're going to get questions on evolution, and you're going to get questions on evil. So, and some of these are related, like most of the questions that I get now are related somehow to morality and evil. In other words, I, I say that the top three objections to Christianity are morality, morality and morality. Kind of like what your friend had that, the Constantine guy. Right. It's a moral issue.

[Granger Smith]

He wants to talk about slavery. When he can't, he doesn't have a moral ground to stand on.

[Frank Turek]

That's right. Yeah. He doesn't have a moral standard by which to say that slavery is even wrong.

[Granger Smith]

Exactly.

[Frank Turek]

But he thinks it's wrong. Yeah. And he has no moral ground if there is no God, to say that sleeping with your girlfriend is right or wrong. Because it's not right or wrong. Because nothing's right or wrong if there's no God. Everything's a matter of opinion. So on one hand, he wants to say, since there is no God, I get to do what I want. But I don't like the Christian God and I think he's immoral for telling me I can't do X, Y or Z. Wait, wait, look. If the only out these people have, the, the only possible out they have, Granger, is to say, okay, I'm not an atheist anymore. I'm a theist. I believe in God. I just think the God of the Bible is not the true God. That's a fair position to take because now you have a moral standard and you can say, well, the God of the Bible has done this evil or that evil. The problem with that approach is, is that it doesn't fit with the evidence, because the evidence shows that the Christian God is the true God. And if Jesus did rise from the dead to prove he was God and he taught the Old Testament was the word of God and he promised the New Testament, then, then the Bible is true.

[Granger Smith]

I love the way you, you'll bring up the Canaanites in this, this kind of idea, because people will go there, oh, yeah, God's not moral. He murdered God, breaks his own law by murdering. What do you say to that person?

[Frank Turek]

Well, first of all, I asked them, by what moral standard are you saying that's wrong? And then I asked them, when God kills somebody, does he murder them? I mean, it's wrong for us to take innocent life because we're not the creator and sustainer of life. We can't resurrect life. But it's not wrong for the creator of life to take life. He can resurrect it. He owns it. Right. And we don't have that capacity. God does. So just because it's wrong for us doesn't mean it's wrong for God. I'd also point out that whenever God judges somebody in the Bible, that's what it is. It's judgment. It's not, it's not genocide, as they try and say. It's more sinocide. People have done evil and they're judged for it. And how do I know? Well, God did the same thing to Israelites. He wiped out 3,000 Israelites for worshiping the golden Calf, Right?

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

So it's, it's not a, it's not an ethnic issue, it's a sin issue. And I also point out that some of those commands might be hyperbolic because that's how ancient Near Eastern people talk and spoke and wrote. For example, in Deuteronomy 7, he basically says, wipe everybody out. And then right after that he says, and then don't intermarry with them. And you're going, wait a minute, if you wiped everybody out, how could you intermarry with them? Right?

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

And you see over and over again that God says, wipe these people out. And then they pop up a few chapters later again, and you go, wait, I thought they were white. They're not.

[Granger Smith]

Right, Right.

[Frank Turek]

It could be exaggerated language. But my point is, even if it's not exaggerated, even if it's literal, God has the right to take us out anytime he wants. And in a world of free creatures, it's going to be messy. Right. Because God can't force free creatures to do what he does wants them to do. If he does. They're not free. So there may be instances where God judges people very swiftly. And.

[Granger Smith]

And that's what people want, right?

[Frank Turek]

They.

[Granger Smith]

People say, if there's a good God up there, why wouldn't he stop evil from happening?

[Frank Turek]

And whenever people say that, I say, well, if he did, he might start with you. Yeah, right.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

I mean, if God were to end evil at midnight tonight, would any of us be alive at 1201? You know, I wouldn't be. No, I wouldn't be alive at 1201 if he stopped all evil at midnight. I mean, if he just took away our free will or decided to. To judge us.

[Granger Smith]

And then when he does, in the Bible, when he does judge us, people go, look. Look at the monster he is.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, I know. Well, I had this situation a couple times on college campuses. One lady at Oklahoma Central University, she was up at the microphone and she was just said, I can't believe in a God who would kill people in the Old Testament. And I had a long conversation with her. It's on our YouTube channel. But I then asked her, I said, well, were you on the abortion issue? She said, oh, I'm pro choice. I said, can I ask you a question? Why is it that when God plays God in the Old Testament and decides who lives and dies, he's immoral? But when you play God right here in terms of abortion, that's your moral right. You can decide who lives and dies, but that's a moral right for you. Why is it not a moral right for the creator of life, but you have a moral right to do it when that's not your life? You know, I mean, what'd she say? Well, there's really not much to say. I mean, she's, you know, she's a college kid. Right. She tried to skate around it, but.

[Granger Smith]

You know, Shopify has been a faithful advertiser for this podcast, allowing you to get this content every single week. You know, I remember life before Shopify. It was very confusing. I was trying to have my website, grangersmith.com I was kind of trying to program the checkout myself, and I really know nothing about that stuff. And so this is for everyone that wants to start their own business or maybe an e commerce line for themselves, go to shopify.com and watch how they can take control of your checkout process in your website. This allows you to have the freedom of creativity, not to think about all the detailed stuff that they do so well. And that's why they do it for thousands and thousands of companies worldwide. So upgrade your business and get the same checkout as we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com grainger Go to shopify.com grainger to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com grainger As a reminder, you can always get a hold of me on cameo.com grangersmith it's a great way to get a message, a video message from me from anywhere in the world to whoever you want to send it to. You go to cameo.com grangersmith and you fill out the whatever you want me to say. Happy anniversary, happy birthday, maybe a word of encouragement to someone that needs to hear it and that person may be you. And then I'll send you a video message. It's super easy and it's a good gift. I've been doing this for many years now. It's a good gift to someone that is impossible to buy for. You don't know what to get them. Once again, go to cameo.com grangersmith I got to tell you all about this. Have you heard about Yee Yee Fest? It's happening this year, May 9th and 10th in Georgetown, Texas at the Yee Yee Farm. So you can come hang out with us, meet my brothers, my family. We'll all be there. We've got a truck show happening. We've got a mud bog competition kind of like we did last year. But the new addition this year is a concert by me and my band and my old crew. This is not a tour. This is not me getting back into music. This is one time every year we hope to do a concert for my friends and family, especially Maverick, who's never seen me play live before. So come out, have a meal with me and my family on Friday night. I'm going to give a little devotional from the Bible, maybe play an acoustic song or two. This is really a once in a lifetime experience. And if you want to find out more, go to yi yee.com it's, it's, let me see.

[Frank Turek]

People. People give themselves moral rights while they, they complain that God is doing something. He's taking life.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

What they think innocent life. And they think he's wrong, but they think they have the right to do so. Yeah, the very same thing they're complaining that God has done now. And when God does it, he's judging people when they do it. This is an innocent life that hasn't done anything and it's just inconvenient, you know.

[Granger Smith]

Has anybody at one of these, these Q and A's, these conferences. Have you, have you. Surely you have seen someone come up afterward and say, I, I think I was wrong about this. I want to know more. I think, is there anything I could read about this?

[Frank Turek]

Oh, sure, yeah, that happens. In fact, we have some people on camera saying that. Oh, I think that's a good point. Thanks. I hadn't thought of that. You know, most, most people, though, won't say that out loud. You know, they'll. But I don't want to try and own them, so to speak. I don't want to try and, and make them feel badly about. I just want them to think so. I'm not. I try and be very kind to people and just say, hey, okay, I see your point, but what, what about this? And see what they say, right? I don't want to have it. Yeah, I don't want to have a heated argument with them. I just, I just want them to start thinking about certain assumptions they have with their questions. Because most of the time, there's always an assumption that you can ask them about. Like when they say, well, God is evil. What do you mean by evil? Or killing the Canaanites is wrong. What do you mean by wrong? You know, why do you think that's wrong? Who said, because they're stealing from God while they're arguing against him. Right. They're stealing a standard from God in order to say God is wrong. They're still in a standard and they're misapplying the standard. They, they exempt themselves from that standard, but they think God ought to be held to it. So that's what the book stealing from God is about. Yeah.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah. You've, you've, you've built this idea over time that you, you will claim to them, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist now. They don't, they don't like it when you say that. That's like pouring salt on a snail. You know, they don't like that because they'll say, I don't have a faith at all. And that they'll say being an atheist is a lack of belief at all. But then that, of course, that goes back into them defending why they want to be an atheist and why you're wrong. Which truly, if they were held consistent, they wouldn't care what you think, Frank. They wouldn't care.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, well, it usually comes down to why do they do what they do? If there is no God, why do you spend all your time fighting him? Like, they don't, they don't Believe in leprechauns and unicorns, but nobody writes the leprechaun delusion, right? Because there's something about God that they think the God believers are somehow going to take their rights away politically then normally that's really, really the road that gets them all riled up. Well, you God believers, you want to impose your view on the rest of us, and that's wrong. So I'm going to come out and hammer you for believing in God, just like your friend, you know, I want to sleep with his girlfriend. Okay, yeah, I get it. Why don't you just tell me that? A year and a half ago could have saved us a lot of time, right? Let's just go. That's why I usually start with the question after a short discussion. If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? Or you could say, if Jesus really rose from the dead to prove he was God, would you follow him, you know, and see what they say? Yes. Most people are looking for God like a criminal's looking for a cop, right? They're running, they're on the run. They don't want God to exist. In fact, maybe we could do a little thought experiment with your audience. For those watching right now. I want you to think of someone, you know who's not a Christian, whom you'd like to be a Christian, a friend, relative, somebody like that. All right? Think of them. Got that? Person. Okay, good. Now here's my question. Is the person you're thinking of on a relentless pursuit of truth, they want to know if Christianity is true or are they apathetic or maybe even hostile to Christianity. Now, 99 times out of 10, as my friend from Mississippi says, it's their AG. They're, they're apathetic or hostile. It's, it's really, it's, it's, it's either 100 to 0 or it's 99 to 1. Very few people when I do that survey, raise their hand and say, oh yeah, they're on a relentless pursuit of truth. Most people are apathetic or hostile. They don't want it to be true.

[Granger Smith]

So true. That's exactly right. You meet an atheist and you want to tell them, you know, you strike me as someone that would be a little bit more open minded. And they say, I am, I am wildly open minded. Then you're agnostic. Well, maybe I'm agnostic. Or are you constantly seeking truth then? No, no, I'm stuck in my agnosticism. Well, that doesn't seem like you either. You seem like you would be a more open minded agnostic. Well, maybe. Maybe I am. Then would you like to hear more about the evidence of Christianity? No, I don't think so.

[Frank Turek]

This is the loop. They're not open minded at all. Which is why Milton Berle, the old comedian, used to say, we found out this one guy in our neighborhood was an agnostic, so we burned a question mark on his lawn.

[Granger Smith]

Oh man. So what do you say to someone that they listen to this and they think, I'm not Dr. Frank Turek. I'm not that smart. I can't defend the faith because I think the number one hindrance of being an apologist is fear. Really? I don't want to sound stupid. I don't want to end up in a conversation where I don't know what to say. I'm sure you've talked about this with people.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, well, you don't have to know what to say. You just have to know how to ask questions. Asking questions is easy. Answering them is hard. That's why my friend Greg Koko wrote the book Tactics. Great book, you know. Yeah. How to ask questions. You know. What do you mean by that? How'd you come to that conclusion? Why do you think that's true? What evidence do you have for that position? You know, questions like that. So once again, because when somebody says something, it's not your job to refute what they say. It's their job to support what they say. So start asking questions. Why do you think atheism is true? Why do you think there's no evidence for God? Or why do you think there's not enough evidence for God? Like the question you were asking the guy. Like what evidence would you need to see? Right. Why do you think there's evidence for anything? Why? Why can your mind ascertain truths about the real world outside of your skull? Why does that even happen? Not just about God, but about anything. Why do you know if you put two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen together, you'll get water? Why do you know that? Right. Why if you drop a ball off a building, it's going to go to the ground? Why do you know that? Why do you know anything?

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

So you just start asking questions like that and see what they say. Do you believe every effect has a cause? If they say no, they're not being very scientific because that's the basis of science, that every effect has a cause. The next question is after they say, yeah, I believe every effect has a cause. Well, the universe is in effect. Where did it come from? What Caused it. Right. Why is it so fine tuned? Why is it so designed? Why do you have a law pressing on you that says you ought not murder people, you ought to love them? Where's that come from? Is that, is that objective or is it just someone's opinion? Right.

[Granger Smith]

That's a deep rabbit hole and a good one.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, if there's no God, there's nothing ultimately right or wrong. So just asking a lot of questions and you know, when people ask me how do I know that God exists, I just say I know God by his effects, right? If there's a creation, that's the effect I'm reasoning back to, a cause of creator. If there's design, that's the effect I'm reasoning back to a cause of designer. There's a moral law written on the heart. That's the effect I'm reasoning back to. A cause, a moral law giver. If there's evidence a man predicted and accomplished his own resurrection from the dead, that's the effect I'm reasoning back to, a cause who could have caused a man to predict and accompany his own resurrection from the dead? The creator of life. Someone like God. In fact, we do that when we, even if we think we have some sort of personal relationship with God. You know, if we think that God has told us something or that God has answered prayer, we're doing the same thing. We're taking the effect, say the answered prayer and we're reasoning back to a cause. We're saying the cause of that prayer, answered prayer, was God. You're always reasoning from effect to cause. And with atheists, their main problem is they have no cause, right? There's no cause for any of this. There's no cause for the, for the four natural forces that govern the universe. There's no cause for the universe, there's no cause for the design of the universe, there's no cause for life, there's no cause for the design of new life forms. There's no cause for the laws of logic and the laws of mathematics and the laws of morality, and there's no cause.

[Granger Smith]

And to that they typically say, to that they say, I'm not saying there is a cause or not a cause, I'm saying I don't know. And you can't know. That's typically what, that's how they'll make that.

[Frank Turek]

If they say you can't know, I'd say, why can't you know? Why do you say that? And how do you know that you can't know. How do you know that? You can't know because you know that.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

So, yeah, I mean it's, it's a self defeating position to say I can't know anything because you, you apparently know you can't know. Right.

[Granger Smith]

That's incredible.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah. So it, it turns out to be a self defeating cul de sac that they back themselves into. And just about all of the natural philosophers that have come along trying to disprove God, whether it's Hume or Kant, who was a believer, by the way, but he, he said you can't know the real world. That's how you remember Kant. Know the real world.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

When he says that, you want to ask him, well, how do you know the real world is there then if you can't know it? Right. You know the world is there, so you can know the real world. Not you can't know the real world.

[Granger Smith]

You can.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, you can, you can know the real world. So these are self defeating philosophical positions. And just by pointing that out, you can show that at the very foundation of their belief system there's a, there's a fault, a fatal flaw.

[Granger Smith]

So you engaged many times with Christopher Hitchens?

[Frank Turek]

A couple times. Couple of debates.

[Granger Smith]

A couple, couple debates. What was the talk off camera between you two? Were you guys friends?

[Frank Turek]

Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, it was fine. We didn't socialize. Sure. No, you arrive at the debate and it was funny. Christopher was a funny guy. Actually, first time, the first debate we had was at university. It was at, it was at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond back in 08, and he was debating Christians around the country. He had written the book, you know, God is Not Great at Religion Poisons Everything. And I saw him on TV a lot because he was also a political commentator. And a lot of the politics he, he talked about I agreed with. I mean, Christopher was very straightforward on the danger of Islam. He didn't pull any punches there.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

And so I appreciated his candor there. And when I first met him, I said, hey, Christopher, you know, this is my first debate debating anyone other than my wife. So I don't, I don't fear you, but, you know, but I said, you know, I'm kind of a fan. I kind of, I kind of, you know, like a lot of things you say. And he, he kind of peered over his glasses and he went, he said, the night is young. And then before the second debate, we got talking about a couple things and I mean, just small talk, you know, nothing. But everyone liked Christopher. He, whether you agree with him or not, you liked him. He was. He was a very. He had a great way with words. He was a. He was a journalist. You know, he was a literary guy. Love poetry, that kind of thing. And. But I think he was just mad at God. That's why I ended both debates by saying, you know, Christopher Hitchens says there is no God, and I hate him. Yeah, but, yeah, there is a God, and he loves Christopher Hitchens. So. But yeah, we had. If you watch a debate with Christopher Hitchens, you'll go, I like this guy. You know, but if you read the transcript, you're gonna go, what is this guy talking about? He's not even in the ballpark of the. Of the topic. He's skating her all around it. In our first debate, I went first and I got up and I talked about, you know, three arguments for the existence of God. The cosmological, teleological, and moral arguments. And Christopher got up and started talking about what a bad person Mother Teresa was. And I'm going, what does this have to do with whether or not God exists? Whether Mother Teresa was good or bad is irrelevant to this question. You know, but he was so good rhetorically that, you know, you just kind of get mesmerized by him. But. But he was not technically a good debater because he was not really dealing with the issues.

[Granger Smith]

No, he was never really listening to you. He was just kind of always assuming. It was like he was kind of blacking out and then assuming that you said something and he would get up and he was like, you said he was brilliant, and so he could just kind of talk his way around anything, but never really answering any of the. The propositions that you. You put forth. And if anyone wants to see those, those are very famous debates. You just look on YouTube.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, they're. They're on our YouTube channel. Cross examine YouTube channel.

[Granger Smith]

They're on cross examined. Yeah, fascinating stuff. And he passed away.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, he passed away in 2011. Yeah, a long time ago. Now it's almost, what, 14 years ago? Thirteen years ago. Yeah. And he had esophageal cancer. He was a big smoker and drinker.

[Granger Smith]

And why not, if nothing else matters?

[Frank Turek]

There's no God.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah, there's no God.

[Frank Turek]

It was tragic. He was such a sharp guy.

[Granger Smith]

So to. To the. To the people that would question the problem of evil. I know there's so many places I can go with, with this, Frank. So I think problem. Problem of evil is. Is one of the. The main points that people want to go to. I also think Proof of the Bible, which, which I think in 2025, what an incredible time to be alive and to be a Christian. We have, we have an advantage over all the brothers and sisters, you know, before us for the, for the last few millennia that didn't have the evidence, the archaeological evidence, that didn't have the translation ability that we do now. And so I think those two things, you, you probably get those a lot in college campuses. Like, how could you possibly trust the Bible written by these men, changed by Constantine for, for his game?

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, you'd be, you'd be surprised how, how infrequently that comes up, really. Yeah. As I say, most of the objections have to do with morality. You know, they're not interested that much in the text anymore. They just want to do what they want to do.

[Granger Smith]

Maybe because the text is so obvious now. Maybe.

[Frank Turek]

Well, yeah, I don't know. The, the figure of Jesus is an enormously attractive character for obvious reasons. There's nobody been anyone, there's never been anyone like Jesus in history. And everybody notice, everybody wants to have Jesus on their side. So much so that they'll take him out of context and ignore other things he said in order to get done what they want done or to get him on their side to support a particular position. Even world religions will change around Jesus. Everyone wants to import Jesus into their world religion. You know, the Muslims. Did you know the Muslim, you read the Quran. Jesus is sinless. Jesus is, you know, a prophet, He's a miracle worker, all these things. Yeah, but they don't think he's God, but they want to have him in their system. But most of the objections that come up have to do with, you know, the Canaanite issue, the, the four E's I mentioned earlier. Evolution, ethics, evil and eternity. And ethics and evil can be related because they deal with right and wrong. Eternity are questions and they. That can even delve into the ethics too. Eternity, you know, what about those that have never heard. That's actually an ethical or moral question.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

Saying that God is somehow immoral if he doesn't get his gospel to everybody, so everyone has a chance. That kind of thing, you know, or why did God create people he knew would go to hell? Or why is Jesus the only way? Right. These are eternity questions, evolution questions. That's obvious, you know, what about evolution? What does that. Does, does that contradict the Bible? Is it true, not true, that kind of thing. Questions on evil. If there's a good God, why does he allow evil to occur? And then questions on Ethics, you know, slavery in the Bible. That's an ethical question. What about LGBTQ issues? That comes up. Right. Canaanites, we mentioned that. So 90% of the objections, maybe more than 90, are going to be in one of those four categories.

[Granger Smith]

And you're saying that people will typically pull Jesus out of this and say, all he said is good. You know, take the red letters. Which is why I don't actually agree with red letter Bibles, but they'll say, take, take this. And look. Look what, look what he said. Look what Jesus. I listened to what Jesus said, and then I saw you make a brilliant argument for the, Jesus's beautiful sermon on the road to Emmaus, the seven mile journey to Emmaus, when he said all of this was about me. And you laid out this, this beautiful exposition of what do you think Jesus talked about on this seven mile journey to Emmaus after the resurrection? Because the whole Bible is pointing to him. And he said, talking about him fulfilling. He fulfilled what it says. And so you can't say, I just listen to what Jesus said. I don't listen to this stuff of the Canaanite stuff and all the monster in the Old Testament. You can't say that. It has to be affirmed.

[Frank Turek]

The entire Old Testament. By the way, Jesus talked more about hell than anybody else. He talked more about hell than heaven. Yeah, he. He famously said, don't fear the one who can kill the body, but can kill the body and the soul in hell. Right. And what profit will it be for a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul? You know, he talks about beating people with few blows or many blows. That's a reference to hell and the punishment that they will experience. And he talks about those who haven't accepted the Son are condemned already. Right. I mean, why. Why did Jesus come? To save us from the wrath that we're due. The wrath of God that we're due.

[Granger Smith]

Yes.

[Frank Turek]

That's why he came. The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. That's why all of these commercials, I know they're all well intended, but they missed the mark completely. All the he gets us commercials.

[Granger Smith]

Yes.

[Frank Turek]

It has nothing to do with Jesus's mission or very little. Jesus didn't come for social justice. Jesus came for eternal justice. And eternal justice says that we're all sinners. We all need a savior, and I'm the ransom. I came to put my life down so your life wouldn't be punished. I came to save You. I didn't come to give you a new ethic. I didn't come to give you a, you know, a new series of laws that you're going to impose on the rest of people through some sort of political process. I mean, that might be part of Christianity, but that's not why I came.

[Granger Smith]

Right, absolutely.

[Frank Turek]

I. I came as the sacrifice. I came as the lamb. I came to take your sins from you and then give you my righteousness.

[Granger Smith]

That's incredible. That's the gospel, right?

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, yeah. That's what it's also. It's all about. It's not social justice. It's not. It's not. Take care of the poor. Yeah. Jesus said take care of the poor, but that's not the focus of his ministry. That's a result of why he came.

[Granger Smith]

Yes.

[Frank Turek]

That's not the. That's not the. The. That's not the goal of his ministry. That might just be the result of people that have accepted Jesus. They go, you know, we ought to take care of the poor. You know, we ought to. We ought to take care of the widow. This is what true religion is. Right. We ought to take care of the downtrodden. We ought to do that. Yeah, let's do that. Because we're saved. Not to get saved.

[Granger Smith]

That's so good. And you could add in there, practice apologetics because we're saved.

[Frank Turek]

That's right.

[Granger Smith]

Because how could we not. How could we not tell everyone about this? And, yeah, we should be to the point of, you know, the Costi conversation. And I learned so much from that. He might not have, but that's kind of besides the point. I hope that there's a seed that's planted in that German guy, wherever he is today, maybe listening to this. But my point is that people, all of us listening, as Christians, we should engage in these conversations. I think you laid out a great way to do it by just asking questions. You could ask questions, and it's okay also to say, you know what? I don't know that. But give me. Give me tonight and let's talk about this tomorrow. I'm gonna. I'm gonna look at some stuff, and that's okay, too. But the more we engage, the. The more we want to practice apologetics, naturally, the better we're going to get. I don't think anyone's going to get as good as you, though.

[Frank Turek]

Oh, no, no. There's. There's a lot of great people out there who are presenting the. The evidence for Christianity, I think, quite well. You probably saw Wes Huff On Rogan's thing, if you see that, he did great.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah, I did, yeah.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah. Wes is young, he's good. His colleague Andy Steiger was with him on some recent shows. I just had Andy on the podcast, too. You got Jay Warner Wallace, Greg Kokel, of course, John Lennox. Nobody better than John Lennox. Of course, John is an older man now, but you just watched. If everyone acted like John Lennox, the whole world would be Christianized, because you can't not love John Lennox. So, yeah, there. And by the way, Lennox gives a great illustration about Christianity when he says, when I first met my wife Sally, I mean, he's. This is a hypothetical. This is not how it went. But he said, when I first met my wife Sally, I gave her a cookbook. And I said, if you can cook well for the next 40 years, I'll see about loving you. Right. And. And, well, he said, well, if I had done that, she'd have rightfully thrown that cookbook in my face. Right?

[Granger Smith]

Yeah.

[Frank Turek]

But why do we treat God this way? Why do we? God has given us this cookbook called the Bible, and if we obey it well enough at the end of our life, if we've done it well enough, he's going to love us. No, that's not the way it works. God loves us already. God came to this, into this space time continuum and took our sin upon Himself, and He loves us already. We'll obey the cookbook that he gives us out of love for what he's done, not as a way of earning his love or his favor. He already does love us. And so he gives us wisdom through this series of books we now call the Bible, to help us live a life and become more like Christ and to bring other people into the kingdom. We're here to know God and to make him known, but it's not to earn anything with God. It is when we follow his commands. You know, he said, if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. When we follow his commands, it's a result of the fact that he loves us.

[Granger Smith]

That's right.

[Frank Turek]

It's. It's not. Not to get him to love us. He already does love us. That's why he came to Earth.

[Granger Smith]

That's right. And then we hear Peter after that, who says, always be ready to make a defense, which is where we get that world of apologia. That's where we get that root word, Always be ready to make a defense for the hope that is in you. Yet do it with gentleness and respect, which I think you, you Also, it's.

[Frank Turek]

Hard for me to do because I'm from New Jersey. Forget about it.

[Granger Smith]

You do. You have yelled a few times, and I think if your wife's there, she must be thinking, he's in there doing a podcast because he's yelling again.

[Frank Turek]

That's right. Yeah. I yell on podcasts. Not. I. I don't. I don't yell to other people.

[Granger Smith]

But let me ask you one more thing. You're in good shape, man. What are you. What are you eating? What are you doing?

[Frank Turek]

I'm 63, but I don't look a day over 62. In fact, when I turned 50, my wife said, honey, you're going to live to be 100. I said, how do you know? She said, because you look half dead off already. Come on.

[Granger Smith]

Come on, man. I see you. You tuck that shirt in every time you're at a college campus or do it. You tuck that shirt in. It's like washboard abs.

[Frank Turek]

Well, I'm a runner. I've always been a runner.

[Granger Smith]

There it is.

[Frank Turek]

Well, I can't. I can't run as much anymore just because I ran today. But I only run, like once a week now because I got Achilles tendonitis. You know, you get old, everything breaks down.

[Granger Smith]

Is that the old naval aviator in you that still runs?

[Frank Turek]

Yeah. Well, I. Before I was in the Navy, I was a runner because I was just a skinny kid, and that was the best thing I could do athletically was run, so. And then I have something called tonal, which is a workout thing you put on your wall.

[Granger Smith]

Okay.

[Frank Turek]

I like use. What about you? You're in shape. What do you do?

[Granger Smith]

I try to eat right as good as I can. I try to. I do strength training. I'm actually not a runner, but I will do some kind of cardio in the gym and do strength training and.

[Frank Turek]

And I think strength training. Like, what do you do?

[Granger Smith]

I do isolated muscle groups each day. Like Monday's chest day, Tuesday is back day.

[Frank Turek]

Like in a gym, like a Planet Fitness kind of thing, or what I.

[Granger Smith]

Have for a lot of years, but I have a little something that my wife and I made out in the garage.

[Frank Turek]

No, that's good. So, yeah, that's what you want. Even when you don't want to have to travel anywhere. Ours is in the house, too. Yeah, it's a lot quicker. Yeah.

[Granger Smith]

So when. When you have an event, speaking of being ready, I think that, you know, being healthy and trying to eat right and like you said, running, I think that all affects the way that you. You Defend the faith. So whenever you have an event, say it's a debate or, or you're doing a Q and A, are you thinking about, are you drinking coffee before? Are you think. Are you trying to get rest? I mean, is there anything that goes through your mind? You do it so well.

[Frank Turek]

Well, I haven't. I didn't. I don't drink coffee. I didn't drink coffee before, you know, since I've been saved. I didn't drink it before I was saved either. So it doesn't. Being the same thing doesn't matter. I just want to sound more spiritual than you, that's all. Not a coffee guy. I do like iced tea, but unsweet. But no. I mean, look, when you're. You, you know this probably better than I do. When you're doing some kind of gig, you're not tired, the adrenaline's going. Right. You're not, you know. Yeah. You don't get up there and do a set and go, I don't really want to do this. I'm kind of tired. Right. I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're probably feeding off the audience, aren't you?

[Granger Smith]

Sure. But have you thought, have you been on there before and just thought, I am not as sharp as I normally.

[Frank Turek]

Oh, yeah, that happens. Sure. That happens. Especially during the Q A because I've already been up. Like, we just did one outside the University of Nebraska last week, and it, it, the presentation was an hour and 40 minutes, and then it was an hour, 40 minutes of questions. By the time that, you know, it's 3 hours and 20 minutes, and I'm like, okay, I'm getting tired. You know, that happens. But thankfully, I've tried to stay in shape most, you know, my life, and I. Thankfully, I haven't got any major injury in order to do that. Sure. And I think generally, if you're carrying extra weight around, that's gonna, that's just gonna boggy down. It's just not. You're not going to be able to be as sharp as you could be.

[Granger Smith]

Sure.

[Frank Turek]

So thankfully, I haven't had the problem with that. I have a high metabolism, so I know maybe other people have a slower metabolism. It's harder for them to keep the weight off. I just haven't had that problem. But I do work out, so I don't know if that's going to change. Hopefully it won't. Hopefully I'll be able to maintain not, not getting heavy. Unfortunately, America's heavy. Make America healthy again. That's right. Big rfk.

[Granger Smith]

Yeah, we need. We need you.

[Frank Turek]

He's right.

[Granger Smith]

We need you, Frank. We need. We need some more books from you. You know, we need you to keep cranking that out for us.

[Frank Turek]

I'm working. I'm working on a couple right now.

[Granger Smith]

What do you work. What's the latest thing you're working on?

[Frank Turek]

Well, there's a book that a colleague of mine is. We're working on called the War on Reality. And it's, you know, all the crazy stuff that people try and say is true and Right when it really isn't.

[Granger Smith]

So very much needed right now.

[Frank Turek]

Yes. So we're working on that and we're working on an update to some other stuff, so.

[Granger Smith]

Okay.

[Frank Turek]

But a lot of the time is spent traveling and, you know, doing the video work on college campuses, so.

[Granger Smith]

Which for everybody, it's cross examined on YouTube. Excellent stuff, brother. Such an honor having you on here. Thank you.

[Frank Turek]

Thank you, Granger. It's an honor to be on. So thanks for having me and appreciate the work you're doing now, man. And. And, you know, you had a great career in the music world, and now you're having a great career in ministry, so you're doing both, by the way. I think you can do both at the same time, right? You can. You can be in ministry and in music.

[Granger Smith]

You certainly can. You said, speaking, you know, hypothetically, certainly as far as me personally. We'll see. We'll see. As if the Lord gives me a way back into music somehow through worship or, you know, that'd be amazing.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, well, right now I'm just trying.

[Granger Smith]

To make more of him and less of me.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. No, it's good whether you're in music or not, because look, there's. We actually need more apologists. Maybe ought to become an apologist. We got a lot of music artists out there. We don't have enough people going to college campuses, I can tell you that.

[Granger Smith]

You know, when I first started seminary, I first started going after an apologetic degree before I changed to mdiv. But. But I agree, and I think everyone should at least study. And, you know, you could study apologetics by watching you. That is a way that anyone listening right now, you know, how do I get into apologetics? Go watch Frank Turek. Go. Go to YouTube and watch how you interact and how you answer. I don't think there's a question that anyone has asked that that someone else watching wouldn't get the same question. It would be very common.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah, the questions today, they're. They're all. They're all around morality. Most of them are anyway. So, yeah, you're right. So it's not like you have to know a whole ton in order to answer them. And as you said earlier, the real challenge is not, are these questions hard? The hard thing is answering them in two minutes, which you can't do completely. All you can do is kind of COVID one point briefly and say, I recommend you go read this book. Or you, you know, you look at this or that, or I'm just giving you a doorway to an answer. Not a complete answer. Yes, that's. That's the harder thing.

[Granger Smith]

You ever have any death threats?

[Frank Turek]

That's a good question. Probably on the Internet, but I don't even take those seriously, you know? You know, not. Not. Not recently. I'm trying to think of back. If we have. I kind of just brush them off. Look, sure, if someone wants to kill you, they're not going to tell you, right?

[Granger Smith]

That is very true.

[Frank Turek]

I remember one time backstage, I was with. I was with. I was with Hitchens because he was coming out against the Muslims pretty strong, and I said, you ever get death threats? He goes, look, if someone wants to kill me, they're not going to tell me. It's something good.

[Granger Smith]

We could learn from Christopher.

[Frank Turek]

Yeah. You just keep moving forward, you know?

[Granger Smith]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, brother, thank you so much, man. I. I appreciate you. You taking the time. It means. It means the world to me.

[Frank Turek]

Well, thank you, Granger. Thanks for the work you're doing. We'll do this again some point, I hope.

[Granger Smith]

Sounds great. I hope so. Thanks for joining me on the Granger Smith podcast. I appreciate all of you guys. You could help me out by rating this podcast on itunes. If you're on YouTube, subscribe to this channel. Hit that little, like, button and notifications bell so that you never miss any time I upload a video.