Lots to Say: First Half- NY Times Author Ken Belson

Summary

Lots to Say Podcast: NY Times Author Ken Belson (Part 1)

Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Bobby Bones (with Matt Castle)
Guest: Ken Belson, New York Times reporter and author

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Episode Overview

This episode of “Lots to Say” centers on a deep-dive conversation with Ken Belson, author of Every Day is Sunday: How Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft and Roger Goodell Turned the NFL into a Cultural and Economic Juggernaut. Hosts Bobby Bones and Matt Castle explore the personalities and impact of the NFL’s most powerful figures, discuss league growth, and share personal stories of celebrity and travel, before turning their focus to the business and cultural forces behind the modern NFL.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Anecdotes & Travel Mishaps (02:49–09:01)

• Family at USC and TV appearance: Matt Castle discusses celebrating Thanksgiving at USC with his family. His kids appeared on NBC’s pregame show when prominent alumni couldn’t be found.
• Exhausting travel: Matt outlines a grueling California–New York–California–Nashville travel loop, grateful for “lay-down seats” on the flights.
• Sleeping pill adventures: Bobby Bones recounts a period of insomnia and anxiety, resorting to prescription sleeping pills, which led to walking around and even driving without memory.
  • “Once I drove...I don’t remember it, but I drove off with a gas pump in my car.” (07:25, Bobby Bones)
• Solo travels and writing: Bobby details traveling alone (e.g., Ireland, Hawaii) for work and rest, using time zones to avoid work distractions.
• Celebrity dinners and “name drop” stories: Bobby and Matt share stories about meeting Lionel Richie and Luke Bryan, with Lionel’s out-of-touch-but-charming first class flight stories.
  • “I woke up in the middle of the night and was like, ‘Can I get a sorbet with almond milk and caramel nuggets?’” (12:43, Bobby Bones paraphrasing Lionel Richie)

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2. Celebrity Sightings & Interactions (13:42–21:07)

• Seeing LeAnn Rimes, Andre 3000 & David Spade in first class: Matt’s family saw LeAnn Rimes, Bobby recounts being on a flight with Andre 3000 (who now plays the flute), and once ran into David Spade at a restaurant.
• Rules for approaching celebrities: Bobby emphasizes etiquette—never approach if with kids or eating, but quick fan comments are usually appreciated.
• Memorable sports encounters: Matt recalls being recognized by Mark Wahlberg (a huge Patriots fan) at a steakhouse.
  • “He invites me over, shakes my hand, tells me, ‘Great season, I’m a big Patriot fan.’... That was the coolest interaction ever.” (20:21, Matt Castle)
• Reflections on Boston sports culture: Both hosts note the intense support for winning athletes in Boston.

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3. Interview with Ken Belson: Behind the NFL’s Boom (26:20–50:37)

a. First Impressions of NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell (26:41–28:27)

• Strength and personality: Bobby and Ken trade stories about Goodell’s imposing handshake and locker room-like “chest pump”—even in federal court.
  • “He like, took his fist and pounded my chest, like, ‘Hey, bro.’ It was kind of startling.” (27:08, Ken Belson)

b. Goodell’s Superpower: The Senate Whip Analogy (28:27–30:00)

• Goodell as consensus builder: Ken describes Goodell’s skill at uniting disparate, powerful NFL owners rather than unilaterally making decisions.
  • “[He] doesn’t necessarily drive the bus. He’s really good at synthesizing what the owners want.” (28:27, Ken Belson)
  • “He’s always looking for, how do I get to 24 votes?” (29:20, Ken Belson)

c. Power Dynamics: Jerry Jones vs. Robert Kraft (30:00–32:22)

• Yin–yang personalities: Jerry is the relentless, charismatic “idea guy” and showman. Robert Kraft is the “closer”—diplomatic and able to finish deals.
  • “Jerry...could charm a dog off a meat truck...For him it’s not about the money, it’s about the deal and the chase.” (30:37, Ken Belson)
  • “Robert is a bit more diplomatic...the guy who tries to get to a win-win for, say, the networks and the league.” (31:25, Ken Belson)

d. Jerry Jones’ Showmanship (32:22–34:02)

• Charming everyone: Both hosts and Ken trade stories about Jerry’s hospitality—sending planes for guests, helicopter rides, personal charm as a lifelong “showman.”
  • “He understood the connection between being a good showman and making money—literally helping his dad sell groceries by presenting entertainment.” (32:41, Ken Belson)

e. Could the NFL Have Boomed Without These Men? (34:02–35:59)

• ‘90s businessman wave: Ken notes that Jones and Kraft ushered in a generation of business-focused owners (not just “football people”), driving innovation and risk-taking the league needed for growth.
  • “I think Jerry and Robert were probably the best equipped...much more willing to put in extra hours on behalf of the league, not just their teams.” (35:32, Ken Belson)

f. Did the NFL Grow Too Fast? (36:13–38:33)

• Wild west years to streamlined juggernaut: The league at one point risked over-saturation (“wild west days” of too many sponsorship deals), which was tamed by exclusive mega-deals—leading to more efficiency and massive revenue increases.

g. Future Threats to NFL Growth (42:47–45:09)

• Labor strife and demographics: Potential for labor (CBA) disputes, shrinking youth player/fan bases and the “saturating” of the U.S. market push the league to grow internationally.
• Gambling’s impact: Rise of real-time gambling is dramatically altering how fans engage with games.
  • “It has fractured the sports viewing experience...the leagues, plural, are going to have a challenge.” (44:00, Ken Belson)

h. Goodell’s Biggest Accomplishment (45:28–46:32)

• Concussion protocol: Instituting formal sideline protocols and spotters for head injuries is a major legacy.
  • “That concussion protocol stuff has been a big game changer.” (46:23, Ken Belson)

i. Honesty and Balance in Reporting (46:32–48:25)

• Why does the NFL allow “balanced” critics? Bobby commends the book for its nuance—not just cheerleading, but not hostile.
  • “It’s not a gotcha book...there are no heroes. I’d like to think that’s probably true.” (47:18, Ken Belson)
  • “I wrote it as a reported history, if you want to call it that, or contemporary history. So I think it’s fair in that sense.” (47:52, Ken Belson)

j. The Reality of Reporting—Relationships & Persistence (48:25–50:10)

• Long-term groundwork: Real insight comes from building trust with sources over years—“just texting and being left on read” is constant, but key relationships pay off when it matters.

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Notable Quotes

• On Jerry Jones’s charisma:
  “Jerry...could charm a dog off a meat truck...For him it’s not about the money, it’s about the deal and the chase.”
  —Ken Belson (30:37)

• On NFL’s growth philosophy:
  “Instead of having five apparel makers, they said, ‘Let’s just go with Reebok...Let’s just do Coke.’...You could charge a premium for that exclusivity.”
  —Ken Belson (37:40)

• On the future of the league:
  “There’s essentially a slowing birth rate...that is what’s driving part of what’s driving the NFL to play overseas to find new fans.”
  —Ken Belson (43:26)

• On reporting the NFL:
  “I hope it’s not a cheerleading book. You know, there’s a fine line between giving Jerry Jones and Robert Kraft and Roger Goodell credit for making a lot of money. It’s a business book. On the other hand, it’s up to the reader to decide whether that’s greed.”
  —Ken Belson (48:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Matt’s USC Thanksgiving story & TV appearance – 02:49–05:12
• Sleeplessness, sleeping pills & travel mishaps – 05:37–09:01
• Celebrities in first class, etiquette & Mark Wahlberg story – 13:42–21:07
• Ken Belson interview: Roger Goodell handshake & skills – 26:41–28:27
• Jerry vs. Kraft: contrasts, collaboration, and NFL deal-making – 30:00–32:22
• Did the NFL grow too fast? – 36:13–38:33
• What’s next: threats to league growth – 42:47–45:09
• Goodell’s legacy—concussion protocol – 45:28–46:32
• Balanced reporting in the NFL and the purpose of the book – 46:32–48:25
• The grind of sports journalism – 48:25–50:10

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Memorable Moments & Tone

This episode blends light-hearted travel and celebrity banter with incisive discussion about the realities of NFL power, league growth, and media. Bobby and Matt’s tone is energetic, irreverent, and occasionally self-deprecating, while Ken Belson brings thoughtful, balanced analysis—never shying away from nuance or difficult questions.

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Summary

Part 1 of this special episode offers a revealing look into NFL business, culture, and leadership through both personal stories and expert commentary. Ken Belson’s insights, drawn from years of access and research, illuminate how Jones, Kraft, and Goodell have steered the NFL’s meteoric rise—while the hosts keep things lively with anecdotes and sharp questions.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where Bobby, Matt, and the crew will tackle more NFL and sports topics.

Transcript

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[Bobby Bones]

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[Matt Castle]

A little escape?

[Bobby Bones]

No.

[Ken Belson]

A delicious bowl of grapes? Yes.

[Bobby Bones]

Yes that.

[Matt Castle]

An afternoon stroll?

[Bobby Bones]

Sorry, no. A burrito bowl? Happily? Yes. A day of sunshine? No A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

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[Bobby Bones]

To say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle is a production of the NFL and iHeart podcasts.

[Lowe's / Toyota / Nationwide / Dude Wipes Announcer]

We got Lots to say.

[Bobby Bones]

We got lots to say.

[Ken Belson]

We're glad you're here and we hope.

[Lowe's / Toyota / Nationwide / Dude Wipes Announcer]

You stay Cause we got lots to say. Yeah, we got lots to say.

[Bobby Bones]

Now here's Bobby and Matt. Hey, welcome to another episode of Lots to say.

[Ken Belson]

Hey.

[Bobby Bones]

What a family picture with you guys at usc.

[Ken Belson]

How Cool.

[Matt Castle]

Is that.

[Bobby Bones]

Is it because it was your alma mater or your wife's alma mater and you were working, so you took the whole family?

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, well, they went. We went out there for Thanksgiving break.

[Bobby Bones]

Oh, you already had.

[Matt Castle]

Family was out there. Oh, that's awesome. And then obviously my wife is alumnus as well, and so we brought all the kids and my extended family, my brothers, my sister, all my nieces and nephews, they all came as well. So I brought the kids down. And the funny part was we were doing the pregame show, and normally what we do is we look for big alumni to come bang the drum. It's like the last segment before we go and push it to the actual game. And we couldn't find anybody out on the field, like, no heavy hitters. So then the field producer, Wilkie, comes up and goes, cass, we're just gonna. We're gonna use your family.

[Bobby Bones]

I was like, oh, was their idea?

[Matt Castle]

Yeah. So they were on NBC. And the funniest part was my oldest son, who's only 12 years old, he's sitting there and he's got a stoic personality. And they go to bang the drum, and you're like, all my other kids are smiling stuff. And he's stone cold in the picture.

[Bobby Bones]

He was stone cold.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, he's just stone cold. No facial expression. And Wilkie's like, I think your oldest son was upset. I was like, no, that' just him, dude.

[Bobby Bones]

He.

[Matt Castle]

He's. He's gonna be here all the time. But it was. It was awesome experience for the kids. And to have them there on the sideline and. And be back at the. My alma mater for the last game of the year was a good way to wrap it up.

[Bobby Bones]

It was a great picture.

[Matt Castle]

It was a lot of fun.

[Bobby Bones]

I don't. I'm not comment guy. I'm not heart guy. I wish I liked more pictures on Instagram because I. In my heart, I do like a lot of pictures. I wish I just got credit for liking pictures instead of liking it with my thumb. Can I just scroll? And I'm like, oh, that's good. That's good. But I actually was so compelled to write great picture on that.

[Matt Castle]

Did you write it?

[Ken Belson]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

Oh, thank you. I didn't even read it. Yeah, I don't read my comments. Okay. I'm not like an Instagram.

[Bobby Bones]

There were two comments, probably two or two.

[Matt Castle]

One was from you, one was from my mom. Look, I just don't click on the picture to read through the comments.

[Bobby Bones]

It's a great picture.

[Matt Castle]

Oh, well, I Appreciate that. Yeah, it was fun. It was fun. It was good to see the family. But it was a crazy week because on Thanksgiving I had to fly back to the east coast because I was in studio Friday. Got on the plane From JFK at 6 o' clock in the morning to fly back out to the west coast for the USC UCLA game. Then I got on a flight Sunday morning at 6:30 to fly back to Nashville. A lot of travel.

[Bobby Bones]

So you went California, New York, New.

[Matt Castle]

York, California, and then right back to Nashville.

[Bobby Bones]

That's long. Yeah. Did they at least put you in a lay down seat? Did you have those offsets?

[Matt Castle]

They did and I was so thankful.

[Bobby Bones]

For that because that's basically a flight to Europe.

[Matt Castle]

It's a game changer. I mean, it was a game changer. You could actually lay down and like nap a little bit. I don't sleep well on planes. Can you pass out on planes?

[Bobby Bones]

If I take the right pills, yeah.

[Matt Castle]

Well, I need some of those pills then because I didn't have them.

[Bobby Bones]

Well, I don't take them anymore. I had some issues, I think I've told you this before. I got like jumped at work, got pistol whipped another event and had my house broken into. So I was struggling a little bit with sleep, obviously. And so I tried.

[Matt Castle]

That would do it to you. Those are three hardcore instances.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah, it was tough. And so I tried a lot of different things because I don't like to take, I don't want to say medicine. I don't like to take medication because I have fear of addiction because all my family's been addicted and they're mostly all dead from it. And so I wasn't sleeping at all after those instances, like for months and months. And I was going to my doctor, we were trying all the natural remedies and tai chi and anything that possibly would work.

[Matt Castle]

Right.

[Bobby Bones]

Holistic, non holistic. I was doing everything except taking sleeping pills. And so I started taking sleeping pills because I was getting no sleep and I was getting sick all the time because I was getting no sleep.

[Matt Castle]

Right.

[Bobby Bones]

And finally I was like, I'm taking sleeping pills. Doctor was like, you got to do it. And so it was our last option. And so I took them. You ever taken sleeping pills?

[Matt Castle]

They're crazy.

[Bobby Bones]

They're crazy if you go to sleep, dude.

[Matt Castle]

The trippiness behind that and you're like in this other zone and world. It's like the Twilight Zone.

[Bobby Bones]

It was so wild to me because I've never had a drink of alcohol and so I don't know what it's like to be drunk. I'd like to be drunk a lot. I'd like to, I'd like to do drugs.

[Matt Castle]

Well, if you ever want to talk about it, I've been there before.

[Bobby Bones]

My reference, my reference point.

[Matt Castle]

So where do you want to go right now?

[Bobby Bones]

I would take these pills and then I would be like, you know what, I don't need to go to sleep quite yet. I need to do some more work.

[Matt Castle]

That's the worst thing you could possibly do.

[Bobby Bones]

And there I would black out. Yeah. And I would wake up and see that I had FaceTimed people and don't remember a thing.

[Matt Castle]

Isn't that wild?

[Bobby Bones]

Once I drove.

[Matt Castle]

No, you did not.

[Bobby Bones]

I don't remember it, but I drove and I drove off with a gas pump in my car.

[Matt Castle]

You're like Wolf of Wall Street. You know that scene where he's going? That's exactly what it was like, dude. I got home safely. And then the next morning they do the recap and it's like full on. Not, not a good situation.

[Bobby Bones]

It was so unsafe for me. And so I was like, I gotta stop taking em. But I would take em on long flights. I'd never been anywhere like overseas or even on a vacation until I got older. So I started to go places by myself and I would get the lay down seat. I started to make money and I was single. So I was like, I'm buying the freaking lay down seat. You're gonna. This is all coming to a point about the lay down seats. And so like I went to Ireland by myself, went to Hawaii by myself.

[Matt Castle]

By yourself?

[Lowe's / Toyota / Nationwide / Dude Wipes Announcer]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

And mostly because I would go, I went to Ireland to finish my second book because it was the closest faraway place that would get me off the time zone. So I wouldn't get into my cycle of working because even though I'm like, I'm gonna check out for a few days from like my radio show, my podcast, it was still three o' clock here, three o', clock, everybody around me and they were still reaching out to get stuff done.

[Matt Castle]

Right.

[Bobby Bones]

If I go to Ireland seven hours, eight hours ahead, I'm working and people are like six in the morning, but it's 3pm it's just the cycle.

[Ken Belson]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

So I went to Ireland, same thing with Hawaii. And I just, I'm there working and I took a sleeping pill on the flight back and I don't remember a lot of the flight. And it scared me because I thought, what did I say? Who did I. This is the moment. And I thought, what If. Cause I could have easily been one of those dudes that gets arrested for like laying in the aisle or something and not knowing I was so outta control. Yeah. I wouldn't have known it.

[Ken Belson]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

And that was so scary to me. It wasn't the gas pump in the car. It wasn't. It was that.

[Matt Castle]

The judge would have understood.

[Bobby Bones]

I don't think he would have.

[Ken Belson]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

You've taken a sleeping pill before, judge.

[Bobby Bones]

So that's why I. I stopped taking them. But if I take the right pills, you're out. I can sleep like crazy. One of the funniest stories about traveling internationally. It's not my story and I'm going to paraphrase it a bit only because. And I'm going to name drop. But I like name dropping because I think it's more fun for listeners.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

So people are like, oh, name drop. No, no. When I listen to somebody talking about stuff, I want name drops because it's, it's interesting. I was at dinner with Lionel Richie once, and it was me and Lionel and Luke. And this is. We were in Savannah. Luke Bryan.

[Matt Castle]

Oh, that.

[Bobby Bones]

Sorry, that's my bad. I don't know why I did that.

[Matt Castle]

You just said Luke.

[Bobby Bones]

Of course we're doing American Idol. Okay. We were in Savannah, Georgia, before we started to shoot the on location in city parts of the show where you go on the auditions would happen.

[Matt Castle]

Oh, yeah. I love those auditions.

[Bobby Bones]

And so it was the night before and we're having dinner and Lionel Richie has been so famous for so long, he's forgotten what it's like to be normal.

[Matt Castle]

For sure.

[Bobby Bones]

Because he's been famous for 40, 50 years. Like internationally multimillionaire famous.

[Matt Castle]

And he has never taken a step backwards.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

He's just always been at the top of his game.

[Bobby Bones]

And I'll say again, he is the greatest. The only negative thing I would ever say about Lionel Richie because he was the absolute nicest, sweetest, most humble, giving, generous guy ever, is that he's a little late. He's. He's kind of a little late. Hollywood late.

[Matt Castle]

Hey, it's. It's. You're on his time, babe.

[Bobby Bones]

You know, it's kind of on his time.

[Matt Castle]

You want this superstar? It's when I want to show up after my nap.

[Bobby Bones]

And of all the things, that's the only thing, because he was the greatest guy. And we would sit at dinner and he would tell great stories. He would tell stories about Aretha Franklin, like voicemails from her before she died. And he kept. On his phone, he's Just generous. Right? Generous with the stories. And he was talking about. He was like, we're flying to Europe and we couldn't get a jet, a private jet to take us.

[Matt Castle]

That's really tough, he said.

[Bobby Bones]

So we flew commercial first class.

[Matt Castle]

And he called that rat class. He didn't.

[Bobby Bones]

But I never actually heard that. That's funny. Rat class.

[Matt Castle]

He called that rat class.

[Bobby Bones]

Did you make that up?

[Matt Castle]

Huh? Did you make it? You haven't heard that before. Oh, well, he must not, you know, fly commercial.

[Bobby Bones]

I mean, I've never heard rat.

[Matt Castle]

I got five kids. I mean, I have to sit in the back of a plane with seven.

[Bobby Bones]

Seats if we're going to California, because I don't.

[Matt Castle]

No chance.

[Bobby Bones]

If we're going to California, that is all I will fly.

[Matt Castle]

Because the plane's not working.

[Bobby Bones]

It's because I'm not paying that bill.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, exactly. That bill's brutal.

[Bobby Bones]

The bill. I'm not flying private to California from here. I'll use the company plane at times.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

But I'm not. No, I'm still southwest 30% of the time. Okay, southwest 30% now, southwest 20% southwest.

[Matt Castle]

Let's be honest. You just threw out, like, a larger percentage, maybe 10%.

[Bobby Bones]

Third, you're.

[Matt Castle]

They have Delta. They have Delta flights that go out there first class. You're for sure taking that if.

[Bobby Bones]

If it's there. But I'm telling you, Vegas, they don't. They don't have.

[Matt Castle]

No, there's not a lot. Yeah, if I had a Nashville.

[Bobby Bones]

So it's Southwest of Vegas every time. Okay. And to. If I'm flying into California, I'm going to fly into. I think it used to be called Bob Hope, but.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, it's down in Orange County.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah. Or the other one. So the one Southwest flies into, that's. That's not John Wayne.

[Matt Castle]

Ontario.

[Bobby Bones]

John. John Wayne. That one. Yeah. Yeah, I like that one. It's much smaller. Oh, that's the best Southwest.

[Matt Castle]

I don't think there is a Bob, is there?

[Bobby Bones]

Maybe not anymore. Burbank's it. That's it. Oh, yeah. Burbank's.

[Matt Castle]

Tiny, Tiny.

[Bobby Bones]

Burbank's what it is because they fly. Southwest flies in. Yep. It's a plus. So anyway, I know Southwest. So Lionel's like, I flew first class and I woke up and I just wanted, like, a sorbet. And he goes, I woke up in the middle of the night and I was like, excuse me, five minute. Can I get, like, a sorbet with a. A little bit of almond milk and some caramel nuggets. And she's like, sir, I'm sorry, this first class, but we can't. We can't make whatever you want.

[Matt Castle]

We might be able to get you a warm cookie.

[Bobby Bones]

And he was like, I was in shock. They couldn't make a sorbet with nuggets. And I thought it was so funny because even he knew he was a.

[Matt Castle]

Bit out of touch.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah, but. But that's. He was like, I was in a bed. He also said people kept walking by when he was in his bed taking pictures of him. I felt bad.

[Matt Castle]

That would. That would be. Yeah, you can't do that. Come on. You should know better if somebody's sleeping.

[Bobby Bones]

I agree. Who's the coolest person you've ever seen in first class?

[Matt Castle]

Ooh, coolest person I've ever.

[Bobby Bones]

Act like Mr. Normal. You're a Google away. Your money's a Google away.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Bobby Bones]

Don't act like rat. Class is your common.

[Matt Castle]

No, but I don't know.

[Bobby Bones]

It's funny how he's inserting himself as a common man here. Kevin. I think it's a kid.

[Matt Castle]

Oh, my wife said somebody was in front of me the other day. My wife said, hold on, this is a funny story. She texts me, I'll tell you the name right now. Hold on, everybody. So the part. This is the part of the story. So I didn't know that I was doing the USC UCLA game until that week. I had already booked the flights for my family back home on Sunday. So the company booked me. I said, can you get me on that same flight? Well, they booked me first class. The rest of my family was in business class behind me. So I get on the plane. I get on the plane and I'm sitting there. And then my family starts coming on and everybody's sitting down in, like, the first class at this point. And I'm sitting here and I feel terrible. And they're like, okay, dad. And I'm literally turning these people. I was like, I am not the worst father you've ever seen, to be honest with you. I didn't know I was even going to be on this flight. My company booked me. I would rather sit with my family. And they're like, okay, guy. Like, my wife goes back my five kids. So then my wife texts me and says, let's see who was sitting in front of me. It might take me a second, guys.

[Bobby Bones]

I know trivia question as you look, Kevin, can you name the members of Outcast? Andre 3,000.

[Matt Castle]

Yes.

[Bobby Bones]

Andre what? 3,000. Oh, what is it?

[Ken Belson]

Gnarles Barkley.

[Bobby Bones]

No, no, that's CeeLo Green. CeeLo Green. CEOLo Green. No, no, no, no, no. CeeLo Green is one of Gnarls Barkley. Okay, so you're. So you picked another group, but not. No. But a member? No. Okay, so you got Andre 3000. Andre. Can you name the other one? No. Can you name the other one?

[Matt Castle]

For some reason, I want to go like, no, I'm not even going to Big Boy.

[Bobby Bones]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Castle]

That's exactly what I was going to say, but I didn't want to say it so wrong. I swear to God, do that. I had Big Boy, and I was like. But I really don't know if this is right.

[Bobby Bones]

Anyway, finish your story.

[Matt Castle]

My wife texts me and says, you know, Leanne Rhymes is sitting.

[Bobby Bones]

Oh, that's cool.

[Matt Castle]

So there you go. Leanne Rhymes. There's one that I can remember that.

[Bobby Bones]

Your wife could remember. I've tried. Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

I just saw a black hat in front of me, and I wasn't going to tap people on. Hey, are you guys relevant and are important?

[Bobby Bones]

Anybody here famous?

[Matt Castle]

I talk about you guys when we go on our podcast on.

[Bobby Bones]

On Tuesday, I was on a flight. My wife and I were going to Europe, and Andre 3000.

[Matt Castle]

That's cool.

[Bobby Bones]

Was sitting like a. To the right of us, because those seats, it's like 2, 2, 2. And so he was over to the right of us, and you can absolutely tell it's him. The only difference is he's a little grayer and he walks around because he doesn't really rap anymore. He just plays the flute. He puts out flute albums. Really? Yeah. He's a flautist.

[Matt Castle]

Wow. I didn't even know that word. Say that again.

[Bobby Bones]

A flautist. Flauntist. Yeah. I didn't want to bother him, but.

[Matt Castle]

You had to get a picture with him.

[Bobby Bones]

I didn't.

[Ken Belson]

No.

[Bobby Bones]

The only thing that I did. I have two stories like this.

[Matt Castle]

Is there anybody that you'd go up to?

[Bobby Bones]

Yes, there are people.

[Matt Castle]

Yes.

[Bobby Bones]

Okay. It just depends. A lot of it, too, is, like, their body language. They're dynamic. Are they by themselves? Are they sleepy? Like, I'm paying attention. Because on a much, much, much smaller level, I'm grateful when people do that to me.

[Matt Castle]

Yes.

[Bobby Bones]

And he also wasn't with his kids. It wasn't eating. There are certain rules that I have about going up to people, but I see him and I told my wife, it's Andre 2000. And my wife is 12 years younger than I am, and she's like, is he a wrestler? Because we talked about the Giant. We talk about Andre the Giant. I was teaching her about it, and I was like, no, no, no. He's part of Outkast. And she was like, which she still.

[Matt Castle]

Doesn'T know what Outcast?

[Bobby Bones]

Well, there are versions of Outkast. Like, I was a fan of Outkast. Like, Bombs Over Baghdad. Like, the early stuff. Yes. And even the newer st, once it was real popular. And I was like, shake it, shake, shake, shake it, shake it like a Polaroid. She goes, oh, that's him. I was like, yeah, that's it. She was like, oh, cool. Then she doesn't care. She gives no crap about celebrities.

[Ken Belson]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

And so we're getting off into the airport, and occasionally someone would go up and be like, hey, can I get a picture? I don't think he was annoyed, but he definitely wasn't over the top about just like, hey, love it.

[Matt Castle]

Let's give me. Give me more.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah. And also, it's like, you've been flying for 12 hours. He's tired. And so he was standing by the baggage gate. His body language was kind of open to me, and I say, hey, big fan. I've been listening to music for, like, 20 years. He said, thanks, man. Walked on. I got my interaction.

[Matt Castle]

That was it. You didn't, like, bust out. Hey, dude, I'm in the country hall of fame for youngest radio hosts of all time.

[Bobby Bones]

And, like, nobody cares.

[Matt Castle]

I sent back my Dancing with the Stars thing. None of that.

[Bobby Bones]

Nobody cares.

[Matt Castle]

Like, there's common thread there.

[Bobby Bones]

There's not. Because he. I believe they might be a rapper.

[Matt Castle]

He's a rapper.

[Bobby Bones]

I did have a hip hop deal for a bit. Captain Caucasian.

[Lowe's / Toyota / Nationwide / Dude Wipes Announcer]

Yeah.

[Bobby Bones]

What if he'd have been like, I'm the biggest Captain Caucasian fan ever.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, how cool. You want to collab now that we got a little bit older, he'll play.

[Bobby Bones]

Flute on my next track. The only other one was I was in a restaurant in California and was having dinner with a friend, and I was walking to the bathroom, and I look over like, oh, I know that person's sitting at the table. They did not have food in front of them yet. And I was like, on the way back, I'm gonna say something. So I go to the bathroom, wash my hands just in case he wanted to shake hands and watch my heads sit down. And I walked by, and it was David Spade. I said, hey, David Spade. Super funny, big fan, man. He goes, thanks, man. Kept walking, right? Had my interaction, and I was talking about that. Cause I Think there are general rules where it's. If you see somebody that's famous or known, if they're with their kids, do not approach. If they have food in front of them, do not approach any other time. They know who they are. They also have the right to say no to the record, for sure. But if no kids and no food, you can go up and say, hey, I'm a fan. I've also found that most celebrities, if they're not with their family or eating, they like people to say they're a fan.

[Matt Castle]

Right, because you're doing your job well and you're appreciated.

[Bobby Bones]

And so I was talking about that on the show, and he messaged me on Instagram. I was like, hey, man, I really appreciate you not stopping me. And I'm like, you're welcome, buddy.

[Matt Castle]

You know, the one of these memorable moments for me, I was the year that I took over for Brady. We got done with season. I was back in la, where I'm from, and we went out to this nice steak restaurant, and normally, hey, Brady.

[Bobby Bones]

What do you mean?

[Matt Castle]

You just threw Luke out there?

[Bobby Bones]

Like, he was some Tom Brady dropping names.

[Matt Castle]

But I'm saying the year. So the year I played for the Patriots, I'm done with season, get back to la. We're out at a steak restaurant, and normally people would just cut like a Patriot fan every now and then. But I'm going to the bathroom, I hear, hey, Castle. And I was like. I look over, and it's Mark Wahlberg, and he's a huge Patriots fan.

[Bobby Bones]

Boston guy.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, Boston guy. And of all people, I never thought I was going to see this guy. But he. He invites me over, he shakes my hand, tells me, you know, great season this, and I'm a big Patriot fan. And I was like, that was the coolest interaction ever. Normally, it's something like, hey, will you sign something or do this? And the other. But for me, that was like, wow, that's rad. This guy's a mega superstar.

[Bobby Bones]

He's a megastar. Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

Mega superstar. Marky freaking Mark Marky. Did I used to jam to that back in the day? Hell, yeah. I mean, so that was a cool interaction right there. But that was a few and far between where you get like, a mega superstar that's a sports fan. And that's the only reason he talked to me. Otherwise, you wouldn't even know anything about it. But it just. Just so happened that it aligned with that.

[Bobby Bones]

That's also like, Boston loving their athletes.

[Matt Castle]

Oh, that city's wild.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah.

[Matt Castle]

Like, they're such fanatical, passionate sports fans.

[Bobby Bones]

If you're winning, they pedestal you guys like crazy.

[Matt Castle]

And it was incredible to be in Boston at the time that I was too, because the Celtics won a championship, the Boston Red Sox won a championship. The city was on fire.

[Bobby Bones]

See, I think I'd want to be the only team winning.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, selfishly that would be. But they had, right? They'd won three Super Bowls the year before I got there. They just accomplished their third Super Bowl. So we were in the heyday.

[Bobby Bones]

Ken Belson is coming up next. This guy is veteran New York Times reporter. He's got a book called Every Day is Sunday. It's basically Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft and Roger Goodell and how they've made the NFL so big. I'm excited about this interview. We will do that next.

[Lowe's / Toyota / Nationwide / Dude Wipes Announcer]

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[Matt Castle]

Nationwide is so much more than a great insurance company. They're one of America's largest financial services companies. Like how I'm more than just Peyton Manning, I'm also motivating Manning. When I say insurance, you say Financial services. Insurance Financial services.

[Bobby Bones]

Insurance Financial services.

[Matt Castle]

Now when I say say Nationwide you say is both. Nationwide is both. Nationwide is both for your insurance and financial needs. Nationwide is on your side.

[Bobby Bones]

Nationwide Investment Services Corporation Ember Finra, Columbus.

[Lowe's / Toyota / Nationwide / Dude Wipes Announcer]

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[4imprint Announcer]

So whether it's in sports, in business or your personal life, the wins, they don't happen by accident. They're built on preparation, trust, and the people by your side who bring two things, knowledge and care. So when I first started out in journalism, I had a mentor, my dad, who really guided me. He taught me how to ask the right questions, when to step back and when to lean in. He wasn't just knowledgeable, he cares about my success. And that combination changed everything. It was a real life example that showed me when you work with someone who knows a lot and cares even more, you're unstoppable. At Truist, that's exactly how they approach banking. Combining know how with genuine care. They're by your side to help prepare you for the big moments, help guide you through the unexpected, and cheer you on along the way. Truist Leaders in banking unwavering in care See what knowledge and care can do for [e-mail] Unstoppable Truist Member FDIC leading based on top 10 Commercial Bank Innovation.

[Lowe's / Toyota / Nationwide / Dude Wipes Announcer]

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[Bobby Bones]

Hey, we're gonna bring on Ken Belson now. We're gonna talk about every day Sunday and I'm gonna read that the what do you call this day? Because I wrote books and it was like the title. Hey Ken, what do you call the thing I'm about to read? How Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft and Roger Goodell turned the NFL into a cultural and economic juggernaut. What's the official title. What is that called? The subheader?

[Ken Belson]

Yeah, Subtitle or subhead.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, the book's called Every Day a Sunday. And you. If you were to do the whole thing, it would take you like an hour. But that's awesome because, I mean, these are as far as, like, sports culture. You really get no bigger than these three. I want to ask first about Roger Goodell. I met Roger Goodell once, and he had the absolute strongest handshake of any man that I have ever shaken hands with. Have you ever shaken Roger Goodell's hand?

[Ken Belson]

Yeah, not only have I done that, but he, like, did a chest pump thing with me once that was like. It felt like I was back in the high school football locker room thing. And the weird thing is it was in federal court. I was covering the Sunday ticket trial, which is in LA in 2024. And the reason I went that particular day was that Roger was on the stand, which is very unusual to see a commissioner in a federal trial on the court, in the jury, on the stand. And so he had finished the morning session and he knew I was there because I had said hello to him at the beginning. And when he walked out, he walked through the aisle, the middle aisle, and, you know, the reporters and the lawyers were all standing up to stretch because it was a lunch break. And he went past me and he, like, took his fist and he, like, pounded my chest, like, hey, bro. And it was. It was kind of startling.

[Bobby Bones]

Strong man.

[Ken Belson]

But, yeah, so he. He's a strong guy for sure. He's big. Relatively big.

[Bobby Bones]

You had talked about Mr. Goodell and kind of compared him to, like, a whip, a Senate majority leader, like. And I. Because what we know of him is the face. We know he's making decisions, but we don't really get to see how that sausage is made. Like, what do you think his superpower is?

[Ken Belson]

Yeah, so that's. That's a great observation. I'm glad you brought it up because I think the average fan looks at him and says, okay, he's the guy I boo on draft day. He's the guy responsible for my team's favorite running back for being suspended or whatever it is he's. He takes. That's part of his job, which is to police the league itself, the. The players. But in reality, the people who hire him are the owners. The NFL, unlike most of the other leagues, or compared to the other leagues, is much more owner driven. Everything has to go to votes. 24, minimum of 24. So Roger, I mean, Roger has his own ideas and his own vision for the league, but he doesn't necessarily drive the bus. He's kind of really good at synthesizing what the owners want and what their visions are. And frankly, there's some pretty astute owners on the media front. What do they do about Gambling International? I'm sure AI will come up in a year or two. So these owners are smart from their own businesses, and Roger sort of channels them. And so that's why I compared him to a Senate whip, because he's always looking for, how do I get to 24 votes? And, you know, on rare occasions, he puts himself out there, one being like the tush push couple of years, a year ago, and it actually failed. That was a rare instance where Roger was kind of was in front on that issue. But most of the time, he's just channeling what the owners want and what he thinks, you know, will be better for the league. And frankly, to make them more money, I think is the bottom line.

[Matt Castle]

In the book, you talk about the power brokers being Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft, two guys, actually, I was part of both of their organizations and two very personalities. But how in this. This market that you're talking about, in the marketplace, in the NFL, how do they complement each other, and how do they also compete against each other?

[Ken Belson]

Yeah, great question. Obviously, they compete on the field. They totally complement each other in ways I didn't fully appreciate when I started doing the reporting. Jerry is like this bubbling idea guy. He's like the mad scientist. He's constantly looking at ways, where can we promote the NFL? He is the absolute firmest believer in the power of the shield and has from the time he took over, it's one of the reasons he bought the Cowboys. And so he's constantly coming up ideas, but he is not necessarily the closer. And sometimes he can just wear people out with his ideas. There's a great quote from Robert about Jerry. He could charm a dog off a meat truck. You know, he works the phones. He still has a flip phone, I think. And he's constantly just selling. It's not about the money. It's about the deal and the chase. And so whereas Robert, I think, is a little more in the shadows in the sense that he is more the closer. The guy who tries to get to a win win for, say, the networks in the league or a sponsor in the league. And I think that is Robert's skill. He's a bit more diplomatic. He's not necessarily the ideas guy, but he's the guy that can get it over the finish line.

[Bobby Bones]

I'm curious your perception and experience with Jerry Jones. Both Matt and I have a different relationship with him, but both were so good in that Matt has told the story here where Jerry Jones is like, we want you. We're going to send the plane to get your family, like, glowing reviews. I emailed the random Dallas cowboy website once because I didn't know how to get a hold of Jerry. Next thing you know, I'm in the chopper with Jerry and his family. It's literally five of us. It's him, his son, me, my wife, and, like, my friends. And Jerry's taking us in the chopper. We're landing. He's walking us around. He's like, you. These people don't want to see me. They. And like, I was so used. You used the word charmed. I was so charmed. Like, is that generally what he does to people is make them love him? Because both of us had such a wonderful relationship.

[Ken Belson]

Yeah. Jerry is a natural. It's just in his blood. You could tell part of his story. I was not the first to report it. He tells it all the time. Was when he was a kid and growing up in little Rock, North Little Rock, his dad had a grocery store. And to bring in customers, they basically put little Jerry up there in cowboy outfits to kind of charm the moms coming in to do grocery shopping. So he's been kind of a showman from a very young age, and he understood the connection between being a good showman and making money, literally helping his dad sell groceries by presenting entertainment, Cute entertainment. And it's just in his blood, he has that kind of twinkle. I'll tell you one other story. I've been up in a helicopter, too, with him, and he doesn't know how to use the headset.

[Matt Castle]

And he was flying.

[Ken Belson]

Yeah, exactly. You got to hit the button to talk and whatever. It was a total fiasco. Totally. I couldn't hear a word he was saying. It was so noisy. And so we take. We're going around the star in Frisco, and the photographer loved it. Right. We're getting these aerial photos. We get back to love field. And he has that kind of charm. And he's like, yeah, I think we should talk some more. Because I had, like, nothing in my notebook. And we sat in the hangar at a table for another hour and a half. Wow. Like, I'm sure he was booked and had to go somewhere, but Jerry was going to finish that, and I had come, you know, down to Dallas to do that. Interview. So, like, that's a guy who's committed. A lot of other people, first of all, they wouldn't have taken me up in a helicopter. And number two, wouldn't have spent twice as much time with me just to make sure I had what I needed.

[Matt Castle]

Do you think this, the NFL would have the same success without a Jerry Jones, without Robert Kraft or Roger Goodell? Like, how much of an impact have they had that maybe otherwise the NFL wouldn't have the same success?

[Ken Belson]

Yeah, I think about that a lot. You know, the what ifs, you know, Jerry and Robert, this is in the. Jerry came in in 89 and Robert in 94. At that time paid record amounts for their team. Teams. And I mean, it's hard to believe Jerry paid 115 million for the Cowboys. They're worth like 12 billion now. But. But that was big money when it went to nine figures when it passed 100 million. Now you're, you're kind of talking about a slimmer group of people able to get into the NFL. And they were part of a wave in the 90s of like, wealthy business people, smart business people were coming in, not just football people and not people just interested in dabbling. And so you had Wayne Huizenger in Miami, he owned Blockbuster and a bunch of other things. Jeffrey Laurie from the Lowe's hotel chain. So you have bigger money people coming in. So they were not alone. And I think that changed the thinking in the league from, hey, football is played, you go to Mass, then you come to the stadium, then you play at one o' clock and you go home. And then you got people like Jerry and Robert who went into debt to buy their teams and they really needed new ideas to make back their money. And, and so that really fueled it. I think Jerry and Robert were probably the best equipped. I think Huizenger had lots of other businesses and he was partly distracted. Jeffrey Laurie just doesn't want to necessarily lead from the front, but Jerry and Robert definitely were part of that wave. But they were very much more willing to put in the extra hours on behalf of the league, not just their teams. So I'd say that's why it would have been a very different league. I don't think they would have grown as quickly. They would have grown, but not nearly as quickly.

[Bobby Bones]

The book definitely covers economic growth and just growth in general of the sport, because in our life we have seen an NFL boom. Any chance this is just your opinion here. Did the NFL at times grow too fast where they couldn't keep up?

[Ken Belson]

That's a great question and frankly you're the first person to ask it that way. So yeah, there's a question of like how much is too much. The NFL and Paul Tagaboo's period is really where it most took hold. But there was, you know, there's NFL Properties which is the for profit arm of the NFL. The NFL league itself is just, you know, governs the sport. And those were the wild west days in the 80s and the early 90s where they were signing deals all over the place, different sponsorships. You didn't have necessarily exclusivity. So you didn't have Nike as the official apparel company. So you had like six companies. And at that point it gets kind of chaotic because everybody's kind of grabbing at the same. You can saturate the market if it's not done carefully. And so yes there was in some ways it was a hungry period and there was money to be made, but it was the sales team was kind of running the show. And without the same kind of game plan. I think when Paul Taglobu comes in in 1989, one of the first things he does or a year or two into it, he settles the labor problem. Players get free agency. That was like a big, big deal obviously. And then there's revenue sharing. But then he hires a guy named Neil Austrian who is in the early part of the book. And Neil is a very experienced business person, not a sports guy. He worked at Warner Brothers, he worked in IBM, lots of corporate experience. And he basically said you run the business. And at that point the NFL said okay, let's rationalize this. So you had Sunday Ticket came in in 94. And then the league starts signing exclusivity, the exclusive deal. So instead of having five apparel makers, they say let's just go with Reebok. Instead of having a bunch of different soda companies, let's just do Coke. And so you could charge a premium for that exclusivity. And so I think that kind of streamlined the business and that those wild west days of sales guys just signing deals left and right kind of dissolved a little bit and the NFL became a little more efficient I guess is a better way of looking at it.

[Lowe's / Toyota / Nationwide / Dude Wipes Announcer]

PCs powered by Snapdragon X Elite processors are made to go the distance with blazing fast performance, next level efficiency and multi day battery life. Snapdragon processors are built to tackle it all from highlight reel editing to intense player research. So you can be at the top of your game wherever the day takes you. Learn [e-mail] laptops Snapdragon, the heart of your PC. Battery life varies significantly based on device settings, usage and other factors. Nationwide is so much more than a great insurance company. They're one of America's largest financial services companies. Like how I'm more than saquon Barkley.

[Ken Belson]

The NFL's reigning leading rusher.

[Lowe's / Toyota / Nationwide / Dude Wipes Announcer]

I'm also the NFL's leading husher.

[Ken Belson]

Shh.

[Matt Castle]

Hush up back there. Wow. I might have just set the hushing record.

[Bobby Bones]

Well, almost.

[Lowe's / Toyota / Nationwide / Dude Wipes Announcer]

For your insurance and financial needs, Nationwide is on your side.

[Bobby Bones]

Nationwide Investment Services Corporation Ember Finrack, Columbus.

[Ken Belson]

Ohio this is Rob Gronkowski from Dudes on Dudes with Gronk and Juels and.

[Bobby Bones]

Talk about a perfect partnership.

[Ken Belson]

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[Bobby Bones]

We all know wetter cleans better.

[Ken Belson]

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[Bobby Bones]

Goodbye itch and irritation.

[Ken Belson]

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[Bobby Bones]

The go pack that you can take.

[Ken Belson]

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[4imprint Announcer]

So whether it's in sports, in business or your personal life, the winds, they don't happen by accident. They're built on preparation, trust, and the people by your side who bring two things, knowledge and care. So when I first started out in journalism, I had a mentor, my dad, who really guided me. He taught me how to ask the right questions, when to step back and when to lean in. He wasn't just knowledgeable, he cares about my success. And that combination changed everything. It was a real life example that showed me when you work with someone who knows a lot and cares even more, you're unstoppable. At Truist. That's exactly how they approach banking. Combining know how with genuine care. They're by your side to help prepare you for the big moments, help guide you through the unexpected, and cheer you on along the way. Truist leaders in banking, unwavering in care. See what knowledge and care can do for [e-mail] Unstoppable Truist member FDIC leading based on top 10 commercial banks innovation.

[Bobby Bones]

Is what gets your business to the big leagues and Wasabi is designed to give every business a shot at competition break free from skyrocketing storage costs and unpredictable egress fees from old and top heavy legacy providers. Wasabi is the world's hottest cloud storage company and the go to provider for professional and collegiate sports teams and leagues around the world. And here's why. Innovation From Wasabi's AI enabled intelligent media storage, Wasabi Air to the industry's only cloud storage service with triple protection against cyber criminals, data deletion and ransomware, Wasabi has taken the lead in big league data storage. Remember, Wasabi is up to 80% less than market competition and doesn't charge a cent for businesses to access their own data. Wasabi Another championship story. Check them out for [e-mail] Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage proud partner of the iHeart Podcast Network.

[Matt Castle]

In the foreseeable future, do you see anything that could hinder the growth of the NFL? I mean, the one thing that I can only think of is a collective bargaining agreement that they can't come to the table on both sides because I was part of the lockout in 2011, I believe it was, and it was back and forth and that's the only thing that I could see in the foreseeable future that would slow down the growth. But I would love to hear your opinion on that.

[Ken Belson]

Sure. I mean, obviously labor is huge in the union right now, doesn't just have an interim leader. So there's issues on the player side as well. And that's always out there. Although I think there's still several years away, another half decade to go on the current deal. But there's a lot of stuff out there. Just think of let's talk really broadly about the demographics of America. There's essentially a slowing birth rate, which means fewer kids, which means fewer young athletes, which potentially means fewer young football players and potentially fewer NFL fans. And that is what's driving part of what's driving the NFL to play overseas to find new fans. I mean, you know, 93 out of the top 100 broadcasts a few years ago were NFL games. Like how much more can you saturate American audiences with football? And they're not even at the 18th game yet. So that's one is just the demographics of America. And by the way, baseball and other sports deal with this too. And then you get gambling, which we haven't discussed yet. And that is already changing the contours, the relationship with the fans. It's really fracturing, frankly, the way people watch sports in general, but particularly the NFL. Now you're literally betting on your phone in real time. And so the whole viewing experience is completely distorted. Instead of waiting until the end of the game to find the score, you're betting on plays in the middle of the game. And I just think that, like, it has fractured the sports viewing experience. And I think the leagues, plural, are going to have a challenge. There's a great book called Dopamine Nation, and this is just part of a larger trend of, you know, fantasy football being one, but smartphones, you know, and that when I started playing fantasy football 25 years ago, I had to go to a desktop computer and refresh 18 times to get my score. You know, these days, it's on my phone automatically. So, yeah, it's not just an NFL problem, but it is an acute problem.

[Matt Castle]

Yeah, I want to go back to Roger Goodell for a second, and he's had to navigate through a lot, and I'm talking about concussions, I'm talking about social injustice. And what would you say was his biggest accomplishment while he has been a leader of the NFL?

[Ken Belson]

So, you know, credit where it's due. The whole concussion protocol, just as an example, taking a player out of a game, having spotters and neurologists on the sidelines, players themselves self diagnosing, you know, the blue tent, all these things didn't exist, you know, until, what, 10 years ago. And now, you know, there's an actual formal protocol. You, of course, still have examples like TUA and players who seem to get back, you know, before they're ready, but just as many players now sit out and maybe more. And so, you know, that's something that he probably deserves some credit for in pushing the league to try and address these pretty big and really, frankly, fundamental problems. There's a lot of marketing and messaging around, say, for helmets and youth football and flag football. And some of them are good. Some. I mean, helmets are nice, but they're not going to prevent a concussion. But I would say the concussion protocol stuff has been a big game changer.

[Bobby Bones]

We are an NFL podcast. They pay us. We work for the NFL, and we also know who the boss is. Now, we have never had a guest that we've booked, and they've said no, but they can say no because they are inevitably our boss. This book, I feel like, is so comprehensive that there's a lot of great stuff. There's also some honesty here that maybe makes versions of the NFL Go, man, I wish we'd have done a better job at this point. Why would the NFL let us have you on? Since this is not a complete. I love the NFL book.

[Ken Belson]

I don't know whether they've intervened or they actually look over your booking schedule.

[Bobby Bones]

They do. No, they do. Why do they love you?

[Ken Belson]

Yeah, I don't know if they love me, but I think they. I have to say, the NFL, I think they know who I am. And, you know, I'd like to think the book is deeply reported. I've spoken to at least a dozen owners for the book, union people, network people, I think thoroughly researched the book. And so from that perspective, I think they can appreciate the effort that went into it. It's not a gotcha book in that sense. In one review of the book, somebody said, there are no heroes. I'd like to think that's probably true. And I didn't write it as a polemic. I wrote it as a reported history, if you want to call it that, or contemporary history. So I think it's fair in that sense. And yeah, there's stuff I'm sure they would like not to be in the book, but that also gives it authenticity. I hope it's not a cheerleading book. You know, there's a fine line between giving Jerry Jones and Robert Kraft and Roger Goodell credit for making a lot of money. It's a business book. On the other hand, you know, like, it's up to the reader to decide whether that's greed. And maybe that's too much. Right. But I'm not trying to tilt the scales in that sense.

[Bobby Bones]

Final question, Ken. Being the reporter, you are that are reported on so many things, different types of things. I have a couple friends that also do a job similar to yours, and they just talk about how they text and text and text, and so many texts are just not returned. Is that a big part of your career, just texting and being left on red all the time?

[Ken Belson]

Yeah, it's part of the job, I will say. You know, I. I've been asked a lot, like, how long did it take you to write the book? And the short answer is, I started it in 2022 and got the contract in 23 to start writing. But the real answer is 2013, when I started covering the league full time, because the book didn't happen without relationships. I had already had with pick the owner, Art Rooney, Shad Khan, Arthur Blank, Robert Kraft, so forth. So when I got the book, I already knew them for nine or 10 years. And they do pick up your calls, or at least they take you seriously. And I'll be honest, they're busy people. I get it. So just getting time in Arthur Blank's schedule took like three months or two months. I don't know. Shad Khan, I ended up speaking to him for four hours on a Saturday, a day before a game. But, you know, that took months to sort out. They're just busy people. So I get it. And I'm asking them for a favor. I think the owners who sat with me obviously were interested in talking about, for instance, the 2011 lockout, TV deals, whatever. But, you know, you're just juggling a lot then, you know, the network people, all these things. Very few people just call you right back. So I get that. That's just part of the job.

[Bobby Bones]

Ken Belson, Every day is Sunday. How Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft and Roger Goodell turned the NFL into a cultural and economic juggernaut. I know the book's been out since October. I hope you sell a billion copies. It's so thorough. You can order the book on Amazon, but you can order anything on Amazon. You can order a pickle jar, you can order this book, you can order whatever you want, but this book is there. Ken, we really appreciate the time spending with us today and congratulations on the book.

[Ken Belson]

Thank you. Great conversation. Appreciate it.

[Bobby Bones]

Thank you.

[Matt Castle]

Thanks, Kim.

[Bobby Bones]

Okay. Thanks to Ken Belson. I didn't even get to my Arkansas hiring a new coach.

[Ken Belson]

You guys did hire a new coach.

[Bobby Bones]

Yeah, that's what we're going to do. We're going to wrap this. And so this will be part one. We'll have part two coming up in a little bit because we got to get to our topics too. So this is lots to say. I'm Bobby Bones, that's Matt Castle, that's kickoff, Kevin. And we got Morgan over there running cameras today because Brandon. Because Brandon's like on el presidente for a vacation or something. That's true. Okay, this is part one. Part two will be up soon. We've had lots to say. Goodbye, everybody. Lots to say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle is a production of the NFL and iHeart podcast. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Ken Belson]

We mean by almost?

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No. A delicious bowl of grapes?

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