Lots to Say Podcast: NY Times Author Ken Belson (Part 1)
Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Bobby Bones (with Matt Castle)
Guest: Ken Belson, New York Times reporter and author
Episode Overview
This episode of “Lots to Say” centers on a deep-dive conversation with Ken Belson, author of Every Day is Sunday: How Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft and Roger Goodell Turned the NFL into a Cultural and Economic Juggernaut. Hosts Bobby Bones and Matt Castle explore the personalities and impact of the NFL’s most powerful figures, discuss league growth, and share personal stories of celebrity and travel, before turning their focus to the business and cultural forces behind the modern NFL.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Personal Anecdotes & Travel Mishaps (02:49–09:01)
- Family at USC and TV appearance: Matt Castle discusses celebrating Thanksgiving at USC with his family. His kids appeared on NBC’s pregame show when prominent alumni couldn’t be found.
- Exhausting travel: Matt outlines a grueling California–New York–California–Nashville travel loop, grateful for “lay-down seats” on the flights.
- Sleeping pill adventures: Bobby Bones recounts a period of insomnia and anxiety, resorting to prescription sleeping pills, which led to walking around and even driving without memory.
- “Once I drove...I don’t remember it, but I drove off with a gas pump in my car.” (07:25, Bobby Bones)
- Solo travels and writing: Bobby details traveling alone (e.g., Ireland, Hawaii) for work and rest, using time zones to avoid work distractions.
- Celebrity dinners and “name drop” stories: Bobby and Matt share stories about meeting Lionel Richie and Luke Bryan, with Lionel’s out-of-touch-but-charming first class flight stories.
- “I woke up in the middle of the night and was like, ‘Can I get a sorbet with almond milk and caramel nuggets?’” (12:43, Bobby Bones paraphrasing Lionel Richie)
2. Celebrity Sightings & Interactions (13:42–21:07)
- Seeing LeAnn Rimes, Andre 3000 & David Spade in first class: Matt’s family saw LeAnn Rimes, Bobby recounts being on a flight with Andre 3000 (who now plays the flute), and once ran into David Spade at a restaurant.
- Rules for approaching celebrities: Bobby emphasizes etiquette—never approach if with kids or eating, but quick fan comments are usually appreciated.
- Memorable sports encounters: Matt recalls being recognized by Mark Wahlberg (a huge Patriots fan) at a steakhouse.
- “He invites me over, shakes my hand, tells me, ‘Great season, I’m a big Patriot fan.’... That was the coolest interaction ever.” (20:21, Matt Castle)
- Reflections on Boston sports culture: Both hosts note the intense support for winning athletes in Boston.
3. Interview with Ken Belson: Behind the NFL’s Boom (26:20–50:37)
a. First Impressions of NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell (26:41–28:27)
- Strength and personality: Bobby and Ken trade stories about Goodell’s imposing handshake and locker room-like “chest pump”—even in federal court.
- “He like, took his fist and pounded my chest, like, ‘Hey, bro.’ It was kind of startling.” (27:08, Ken Belson)
b. Goodell’s Superpower: The Senate Whip Analogy (28:27–30:00)
- Goodell as consensus builder: Ken describes Goodell’s skill at uniting disparate, powerful NFL owners rather than unilaterally making decisions.
- “[He] doesn’t necessarily drive the bus. He’s really good at synthesizing what the owners want.” (28:27, Ken Belson)
- “He’s always looking for, how do I get to 24 votes?” (29:20, Ken Belson)
c. Power Dynamics: Jerry Jones vs. Robert Kraft (30:00–32:22)
- Yin–yang personalities: Jerry is the relentless, charismatic “idea guy” and showman. Robert Kraft is the “closer”—diplomatic and able to finish deals.
- “Jerry...could charm a dog off a meat truck...For him it’s not about the money, it’s about the deal and the chase.” (30:37, Ken Belson)
- “Robert is a bit more diplomatic...the guy who tries to get to a win-win for, say, the networks and the league.” (31:25, Ken Belson)
d. Jerry Jones’ Showmanship (32:22–34:02)
- Charming everyone: Both hosts and Ken trade stories about Jerry’s hospitality—sending planes for guests, helicopter rides, personal charm as a lifelong “showman.”
- “He understood the connection between being a good showman and making money—literally helping his dad sell groceries by presenting entertainment.” (32:41, Ken Belson)
e. Could the NFL Have Boomed Without These Men? (34:02–35:59)
- ‘90s businessman wave: Ken notes that Jones and Kraft ushered in a generation of business-focused owners (not just “football people”), driving innovation and risk-taking the league needed for growth.
- “I think Jerry and Robert were probably the best equipped...much more willing to put in extra hours on behalf of the league, not just their teams.” (35:32, Ken Belson)
f. Did the NFL Grow Too Fast? (36:13–38:33)
- Wild west years to streamlined juggernaut: The league at one point risked over-saturation (“wild west days” of too many sponsorship deals), which was tamed by exclusive mega-deals—leading to more efficiency and massive revenue increases.
g. Future Threats to NFL Growth (42:47–45:09)
- Labor strife and demographics: Potential for labor (CBA) disputes, shrinking youth player/fan bases and the “saturating” of the U.S. market push the league to grow internationally.
- Gambling’s impact: Rise of real-time gambling is dramatically altering how fans engage with games.
- “It has fractured the sports viewing experience...the leagues, plural, are going to have a challenge.” (44:00, Ken Belson)
h. Goodell’s Biggest Accomplishment (45:28–46:32)
- Concussion protocol: Instituting formal sideline protocols and spotters for head injuries is a major legacy.
- “That concussion protocol stuff has been a big game changer.” (46:23, Ken Belson)
i. Honesty and Balance in Reporting (46:32–48:25)
- Why does the NFL allow “balanced” critics? Bobby commends the book for its nuance—not just cheerleading, but not hostile.
- “It’s not a gotcha book...there are no heroes. I’d like to think that’s probably true.” (47:18, Ken Belson)
- “I wrote it as a reported history, if you want to call it that, or contemporary history. So I think it’s fair in that sense.” (47:52, Ken Belson)
j. The Reality of Reporting—Relationships & Persistence (48:25–50:10)
- Long-term groundwork: Real insight comes from building trust with sources over years—“just texting and being left on read” is constant, but key relationships pay off when it matters.
Notable Quotes
-
On Jerry Jones’s charisma:
“Jerry...could charm a dog off a meat truck...For him it’s not about the money, it’s about the deal and the chase.”
—Ken Belson (30:37) -
On NFL’s growth philosophy:
“Instead of having five apparel makers, they said, ‘Let’s just go with Reebok...Let’s just do Coke.’...You could charge a premium for that exclusivity.”
—Ken Belson (37:40) -
On the future of the league:
“There’s essentially a slowing birth rate...that is what’s driving part of what’s driving the NFL to play overseas to find new fans.”
—Ken Belson (43:26) -
On reporting the NFL:
“I hope it’s not a cheerleading book. You know, there’s a fine line between giving Jerry Jones and Robert Kraft and Roger Goodell credit for making a lot of money. It’s a business book. On the other hand, it’s up to the reader to decide whether that’s greed.”
—Ken Belson (48:01)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Matt’s USC Thanksgiving story & TV appearance – 02:49–05:12
- Sleeplessness, sleeping pills & travel mishaps – 05:37–09:01
- Celebrities in first class, etiquette & Mark Wahlberg story – 13:42–21:07
- Ken Belson interview: Roger Goodell handshake & skills – 26:41–28:27
- Jerry vs. Kraft: contrasts, collaboration, and NFL deal-making – 30:00–32:22
- Did the NFL grow too fast? – 36:13–38:33
- What’s next: threats to league growth – 42:47–45:09
- Goodell’s legacy—concussion protocol – 45:28–46:32
- Balanced reporting in the NFL and the purpose of the book – 46:32–48:25
- The grind of sports journalism – 48:25–50:10
Memorable Moments & Tone
This episode blends light-hearted travel and celebrity banter with incisive discussion about the realities of NFL power, league growth, and media. Bobby and Matt’s tone is energetic, irreverent, and occasionally self-deprecating, while Ken Belson brings thoughtful, balanced analysis—never shying away from nuance or difficult questions.
Summary
Part 1 of this special episode offers a revealing look into NFL business, culture, and leadership through both personal stories and expert commentary. Ken Belson’s insights, drawn from years of access and research, illuminate how Jones, Kraft, and Goodell have steered the NFL’s meteoric rise—while the hosts keep things lively with anecdotes and sharp questions.
Stay tuned for Part 2, where Bobby, Matt, and the crew will tackle more NFL and sports topics.