← The Bobby Bones Show
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [00:04]
WSECU Announcer
WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're the only credit union to be on the Forbes Best in State list five years running.
- [00:12]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Why?
- [00:13]
WSECU Announcer
Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because what we really do best is invest in you. Stop by, say hi, we're wsecu. Let's credit union.
- [00:35]
Tide Commercial Announcer
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- [01:04]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Hey, I'm Stephen Curtis Chapman. I just would take my daughter back if I had the option. You hobble with that reality. You experience God in it, you experience healing in it. And it's the already and it's the not yet. You're still waiting for the ultimate wiping of every tear from your eyes. And this is the Upload.
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Podcast Host
We're very grateful that you're joining us on the Upload today.
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Stephen Curtis Chapman
Absolutely.
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Podcast Host
Stephen Curtis Chapman is here and I just want to open by saying, you know, you've written, you've sung about faith for decades. You strip it all down, beyond music, beyond all of the awards, beyond all of that. What does the word faith mean to you today?
- [01:39]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Wow, good question. I mean, the word faith, first word that comes to mind, I guess, if this is a word association game or quiz, is survival. I mean, faith is. Is the only way that I know we survive this world, fallen world that we are in. Jesus says, in this world you will have trouble. And all of us know that at our own different degrees and different levels of that. The longer we live, the deeper into that troubled world we find ourselves and the deeper the trouble seems to get. And yet surviving that is, I don't know any other way. Certainly from my own experience and my family's and things that we've walked through apart from faith in a God who we have experienced, to be with us in those places and sustain us through that. So that's the first word that pops into my mind when you, when you ask that question.
- [02:55]
Podcast Host
Man. And faith is such a cool and, like, loaded word too, because it just. The. The word can and the meaning can change in so many different aspects of your life. Whatever season you're going through, the trials that you're going through, faith really is a survival tool, or it would be with. For you helping someone else survive something else. It's. Yeah, it's amazing.
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Stephen Curtis Chapman
It's. It's kind of. I'm. I'm in the middle of a tour right now, kind of re visiting an album that I did 25 years ago. Well, 26ish years.
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Podcast Host
Who's counting?
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Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah, but who's counting? 25, 26. Whatever it takes. Called Speechless. And the whole theme of that, of that album, you know, and it's just been so cool to get to revisit it because it was, you know, I was 25 years younger and I was at a place in life where, you know, a lot of things had good, bad, ugly, you know, all that had happened. But to even get to revisit those songs and the truths of some of the songs that I wrote and recorded on that album. Be still and know that I am God. You know, Psalm 4610, that was a song that was on that album. Just the whole concept of being, you know, speechless, you know, kind of written around this phrase that my pastor and I were talking about. He used the words gospel astonishment. Being so astonished at the message of the gospel that we are stunned. Even guys like us who love words, because he, my pastor, Scotty Smith and dear friend, is the only guy I know who loves to use words more than me. He makes up words, actually, in his sermons. Half the time you go look it up, I'm like, wait a minute. That's not gospelicious. That's one of his favorite words he throws out all the time. That's gospelicious. You know, it's those kind of things that he throws around. But he's like, you know this. If we really get just a glimpse of the goodness of the enormity of the love and the grace of God, for us, it would. It would render even guys like us who use so many words speechless. We don't have words for it. I think just even getting to revisit all of that has just even deepened again my understanding of faith and looking back at the journey and getting to sing those songs and just kind of be stunned all over again at the goodness of God, his faithfulness and the pain on the journey, and yet how he has sustained my family and me on our journey.
- [05:19]
Podcast Host
Yeah. Well, I'm curious, looking back over your life, maybe share a moment where you first felt like faith was real to you, not something that you were taught or something that you learned where you just, you just kind of grabbed a hold of it and you're like, yeah, this is it.
- [05:32]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, the, the first memory of that, first thing that comes to mind when you ask that question is I. I had seen a transformation in my family as a result of faith in Jesus. And my parents, who grown up around church and actually dragged to church every Sunday because that's what you do in the buckle of the Bible Belt where they grew up in Kentucky. But it kind of moved away from it a little bit in their teenage years, especially my dad. So I grew up in a home that was a little crazy. My dad. And mom was 16 when she married my dad. Dad had an alcoholic father who was never. He left home when my dad was a baby. He never knew his father. So he grew up without a dad in his life or really any father figure. So that resulted in just kind of what it would. He's still a great man and knew truth and knew and would say, I still felt like I knew the Lord and wanted his presence in my life, but I was just wandering. So he married my mom. My brother came along very shortly after they got married and she was still, I think, 17 when he was born. So he was young and it was a little crazy. And I grew up in a lot of conflict and a lot of fights and there was just a lot of shame on my dad and a lot of confusion. And when I was about seven years old, my parents both, as a result of. There was a revival going on in our little Baptist church there in Paducah, Kentucky, where I grew up, Olivet Baptist Church. And as God would orchestrate it, my mom, who had been going to church every Sunday, because that's what you do, dragging me and my brother to church, she got my dad to go for that revival. And by the end of that week, I just saw a transformation in my own home. And it was very real, even to my 7 year old little self because I just saw when the fights would start to blow up or when you'd feel the tension and the conflict and you'd kind of start to get afraid. My dad would stop and say, hey, wait a minute, we got to pray. And we get on our knees together as a family and we'd pray. And my dad would, he didn't have really fancy prayers. He would just talk to God and Say, God, I don't know how to be a good dad. I don't know how to be a husband. Will you please show me? Please teach me. And so it was that humility and just that sincerity of, I really want to change. I want this to change my life. And I. And I saw it change my mom and dad. And so I grew up kind of watching that. And it was about. It wasn't maybe a year later, after seeing this transformation happening in my home and in their lives, that we were sitting in church together. And in a very, very real clear way, I'll still remember it all my life. That the pastor, Brother David McMichael, was quoting Revelation at the end of his sermon. And I didn't pay any attention to anything he had said. But when he said these words, Jesus says, stand at the door and knock, and if anyone would open the door, I'll come in. And when he said those words, it was just as clear as anything I'd ever experienced that Jesus was knocking at the door of my heart. My heart was beating fast and I was like, what is going on? But what his words, those words are real. And Jesus is now knocking at my heart. And having seen the transformation in my family, that was the beginning of my, my faith journey. And what I understood even then with that was, you know, he was a King James guy, as I like to say. He used the OG King James, you know, Jesus says, I'll come in and sup with him. Of course, he lost me on that. I didn't know what sup meant. And I was kind of looking like, what is that? You know. But he explained, you know, supper meal relation, it's a relationship. It's like Jesus says, I want to come have a relationship with you. I don't know, I don't just want your Sunday mornings and your Sunday, you know, Sunday nights. I want a moment by moment relationship with you. And so that was for me, the first of, obviously a lifetime of very real, tangible moments of my faith becoming clear. But that was the first one.
- [09:43]
Co-host or Guest
I love that so much. I think the knocking on the door of the heart. I think God is knocking on everyone's heart. This week, my nine year old boy, he knocked on his heart, really everything going on. And he came to me and said, dad, I want to, I want to start reading the Bible every night. And I'm like, all right, son, let's do it. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't have to make him. I didn't say, you know, I was just like, he came to me, I'm like, that's the knocking. And we started reading and two nights later he said, dad, I know God's real, but I haven't ever asked him to be in my life seriously. And so just hearing that story is making me emotional because this week I saw that knocking and I saw that door open in my nine year old boy, my oldest son, and he just, you know, we went through and it's like this is what it means, scripture by scripture. And yeah, so for me I think what do you, what have you seen just in your own personal life as, as a seven year old, eight year old through that and experiencing tension and seeing your parents on their knees when they don't know what else to do. What is the knocking look like? Even in your family, your kids lives? What's that look like?
- [10:51]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Well, I love that, that story of your son. It is the way God will, His spirit will use the things going on around us, the ways that is part of the wonder, the mystery of God and his spirit. Like the wind. Scripture says that if we can't see it coming and going, we can't see it moving. We feel the effects of it. You know, we can see the effects of the wind. I saw the effects of that in my parents at that point in my life. And you know, I've watched it in my own kids. My little girl Maria, who is with Jesus now 18 years, she was 5 years old and getting ready for school one morning. And this was a real gift that the Lord gave us. When it was February 20th of 2008, she would go be with Jesus in May of 2008. So it was only a few months before an accident that would take her life here on Earth. She was getting her shoes on, getting ready for school, preschool. And she went to this little preschool where they were learning songs to get ready for their spring program, their graduation. She was getting ready to graduate from preschool and, and she was sitting on the floor with her mom getting her shoes on. And she said, mom, does God really have a big house? And mom said, yeah, yes. And from what I understand in the Bible, she said, does it really have a lot of rooms in it? So my wife, it triggered, my wife knew she was learning a song, Big Big House, by a group, Audio Adrenaline buddies of mine that I toured with. And I knew that song very well. And she knew it and she sang. So she kind of keyed in that she's asking about this song because she's learning this song. It's a big, big house with lots and lots of rooms, lots and lots of food, big yard, you can play football. So my wife kind of, you know, tricked her and just said, yeah, it does have a lot of room, and it has a lot of food, too. And there's a big yard where you can play football or whatever you want, you know. And Maria looked at her like, mom, how did you know? You know? And she said, you're learning a song, I bet, aren't you? For your preschool, your little program. And she said, yeah. And so Maria, 5 years old, said, I want to go to God's big house. I want to go see it. Can I go? And so her mom, in that moment, and I happened to be home, I wasn't on the road or anything, she called me and said, steven, I think you should come in here. Maria is asking some questions that I think would be interesting to have a conversation with her. So I remember I sat her up on the kitchen counter, so we were kind of eye to eye and just talked to her about, you know, you want to go see God's big house? And I said, well, you know, we actually get to go there if we, you know, as we trust Jesus to, you know, to take us. He's the way we get to, you know, to God's big house. And the father and tried to explain as best I could, and in my head, in my stupid, you know, adult brain, I'm going, she's way too young. She doesn't understand this. She doesn't know what she's asking. But far be it from me to shut this down. I'm just gonna. We're gonna ride this wave and see what you know. And I said, do you wanna talk to God and just, you know, and talk to Jesus and ask him to, you know, let you come to his house and come into your heart and, you know, lead. Lead you through life. And she said, yeah. And so her sister Stevie Joy, also adopted from China, who was only about six months older than her. She hears us talking, she's getting ready too, and she's like, well, I wanna go. I wanna go, too. So then I set her up on talk with her and we pray. And, you know, at the. At the point, I'm like, God, only you know what's going on really in her heart. But then, of course, you know, a few months later, you know, when. When she would go be with Jesus, that was one of those amazing gifts that God gave us. Just that sense of this is where she wanted to be. This is, you know, and with all the sadness and the Grief and, you know, not sticking some, you know, big Bible band aid on, you know, that wound of our soul that will be there until we see Jesus and her face again. You know, it was an incredible gift and a comfort to us, you know, to just that moment that Jesus clearly knocked on her heart and in his sovereignty, knowing, you know, what he knows. And so yeah, I mean there are the ways that he will use even, you know, in your, in your son's case, I mean, so much that's going on in our world right now, you know, he is.
- [15:38]
Co-host or Guest
Questions.
- [15:39]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah, those questions that will come and just the door that, that opens for us to have those kind of conversations. I just believe that's the Holy Spirit at work in all of these things.
- [15:49]
WSECU Announcer
WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're the only credit union to be on the Forbes Best in State list five years running.
- [15:57]
Tide Commercial Announcer
Why?
- [15:58]
WSECU Announcer
Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because what we really do best is invest in you. Stop by, say hi, we're wsecu. Let's Credit union.
- [16:21]
Podcast Host
I have to say that like hearing all of this, it's so encouraging for me. I have a four year old and a one year old and we recently about, I would say over a little over a month ago we put them in a, a Christian like Mother's Day out program. So it's out of church and you know, you think she's four years old, she doesn't know anything, whatever, any of this.
- [16:39]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah.
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Podcast Host
And it's so, it's so amazing to see her little mind go, mom, we forgot to pray for our food. And she'll hold her hands and she'll say, say the prayer. Or she, her stomach was feeling yucky one day this past week and she climbs up into my lap and she goes, mommy, can you touch my belly and ask God to make it feel better? And I was, it's like, it's those small things that they're, they're paying attention and they, they're listening and they are learning about the love of Jesus and they're learning about his kingdom. And I just think just in a, in the midst of tragedy, thinking back to that moment where you're like, that was, that was for a reason. You know what I mean? It's just so encouraging.
- [17:20]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah.
- [17:21]
Co-host or Guest
And I Love the. The knocking. You know, taking that verse in Revelation and Which is absolutely true for everyone. You know, we say God shaped hole. We say. But I love it as questions. I wonder about this. And I think as kids, it's like my son's asking questions all the time. Why this? What about this? And understanding, learning. Then you get a bit older.
- [17:40]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah.
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Co-host or Guest
And the knocking, you know, it gets. The questions are there, but I'm less likely to ask the questions because I feel, you know, pride or I feel like, you know, I should know that. And I think just that's so encouraging for me is to listen out and like you did, attune your attention, to go where the questions are, lean in, stop what I'm doing, focus in.
- [18:03]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah.
- [18:04]
Co-host or Guest
And push through some of the, you know, maybe some of the barriers of the subtleties in the questions in the. In adults, in my friends and people I do life that are around me all the time and, and recognize them as. That's God, the Holy Spirit knocking on their heart. And to, to tune in and say, you know, hey, yeah, let's. Let's have a conversation. Let's have a dialogue. I think with everything going on right now, the, The. The world is so obviously binary.
- [18:32]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah.
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Co-host or Guest
I feel like there is such a. More than it ever has been before. A clear binary. Yeah. Like it's light and it's dark.
- [18:43]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
So much division. Yeah.
- [18:44]
Co-host or Guest
And the dialogue, if the questions are the knocking of the Holy Spirit.
- [18:48]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah.
- [18:49]
Co-host or Guest
How important it is to open up the conversations and also posture a way to be able to have those conversations with people and people to feel like they can ask.
- [19:00]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
I love our pastor and friend for so many years, Scotty Smith. He always talks about we are not called to be the fourth member of the Trinity. And so often I think we feel like. And especially that's what I think happens with. Just have to convince. You have to make sure that you get it. And that is the job of the Holy Spirit. Our job is have the conversations. You know, the questions stay just, you know, staying. Keeping wonder in it and curiosity and, you know, I love, you know, there's a, you know, GK Chesterton, you know, talks about, you know, that we are the ones who grow old because we have sinned and we actually grow. God is infinitely young and he never grows tired of doing again and again the things that show us his goodness, his love. Every morning, you know, he talks about the sun. You know, God says to the sun, do it again, do it again. You know, and every, you know, every night, you know, the moon do it again, you know, come up and just that sense of that God. In the same way God is always knocking. He's always, you know, he's given us, you know, he's always revealing himself, you know, around us and in conversations and in nature and always knocking. If we just can have a childlikeness enough and humility to hear and listen and receive what it is that he's saying.
- [20:30]
Co-host or Guest
I love that.
- [20:31]
Podcast Host
I just keep thinking about people who are watching this might not necessarily know the love of Jesus or might not understand it is a better way to say it. But walking through such a hard time in your life of losing a child is one of the most unimaginable things, you know, a parent can walk through. In those moments, did God ever feel far away from you? Did you ever have those questions of like, you know, the. The why and. Yeah, those, those feelings of just grief.
- [21:03]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Oh, yes. I mean, you can't begin to, you know, I. I will say it this way. It's probably the best way to try to answer that and explain it. You know, I had always loved the psalms and as a. Especially as a musician, you know, and a Christian musician, the psalms are, you know, just your go to. It's like this is the OG you know, this is it. But like so many, I think, you know, you gravitate towards the your love is better than life, better is one day in your courts. I mean, we sing the songs. They're all over the, you know, modern worship songs. All of those, you know, great declarations of the love of God and the grace of God. I had never really probably just skipped over the hard, you know, I was like, ah, yeah. But I don't. What's the how long, O Lords? And all of those things, you know, that are. And you. Not until walking through this did I really, you know, recognize and come to realize that most many of those celebrated, you know, beautiful declarations that we make in our worship songs actually come in the very same verse or the very same passage and chapter, you know, after the how long, oh Lord, are you going to forget me? Forever, you know, and then there's this turn of soul. Why are you so downcast within me? Hope in God. It's like the psalmist is, you know, is giving us this incredible. The whole process of this is where a lot of life is going to be lived. How long, oh Lord? This makes no sense. I don't get it. I'm off the radar. If you even exist, then I guess you've forgotten me clearly and I'll just grant you that you exist, but you forgot me and my plight and my pain and all of that. What's so amazing? And I will say that I really understand so much of the psalms until walking through this. And suddenly those verses became life for me because I was so desperate for someone who could enter into that pain with me and say suddenly those were. That gave me voice to the things that I was feeling, that distance and that how long, you know, oh, Lord thing that we feel in those moments of God. I just. I can't imagine this ever, ever being anything other than just absolute, you know, sadness, just, you know, pain. And. And yet what I have learned from that and still learning is that, you know, I'm so thankful. Aren't we all, as people of faith, that God didn't edit out in the Bible what most of us would have edited out of a book if we were having it written about us and our faith that we created would be, oh, don't put that in there. God absolutely inspired all of that to be included, because those are. When we are so desperate to have that. Those, you know, those places where what, you know, what the psalmist teaches us that he did right, that he got right in all of that, is that every. At every point, he is bringing all of that and pouring it out, you know, to God. And, you know, the anger, the confusion, the sadness, the grief, you know, Job is the same. You know, we get all of that and then this just resolution. And for me, and I remember it very clearly, and I've told this, shared this before, but, you know, when we first lost our daughter, and I remember just at the hospital, Vanderbilt Children's Hospital, receiving the news that she hadn't survived and just feeling this what I call a black hole of despair. It just felt like what I understand a black hole to be. It's just. It sucks everything into it and. And at that point, it ceases to be. And I remember just thinking, I am being sucked into this, that I don't think there is ever there won't be another. Come out the other side. This is just going to just take me. And I would start to feel being kind of sucked into that black hole of hopelessness. And then just again, by. By God's grace, I would take a breath and all that would come to mind is, blessed be your name. You give and you take away. Blessed be your name. And there was a song, my dear friend Matt Redmond had written that I knew that song. And I would just try to sing it, squeak it out, whatever I could get Out. And when I would do that, it's like my next breath, I could breathe, but it's like I just taken my last breath, but I just took enough to get out. Blessed be your name. You give, you take away, but I'm going to bless your name. I'm going to worship you. And all of a sudden I take a breath and it's like, whoa, I got breath back in my lungs now for just a few more steps and then start to feel that black hole pull me in. And then it'd be that again. I'm going to choose to trust you, bless your name, worship you. And in that same sense of those psalms, it was just like, God, this is what I feel. I'm going to pour this out to you. But so why are you so. You know, I got this picture all of a sudden as I was reading those psalms that the psalmist is literally pounding on his own chest, going, come on, heart, you know, beat, soul, why are you so downcast? Remember what is. It's true. This is all true. It's crazy. The world is completely going nuts right now in our situation. Our pain is so real and true, and I don't know how we're going to survive it. That's all true. But what's. What I'm going to choose to believe is most true is that God, you are. You are faithful, you are good, you are with us. And as crazy as that even sounds, to say it out loud right now, I'm going to keep declaring it and saying, and the more we did, the more I felt that oxygen come back into my lungs. And it was that daily breath by breath, step by step process, especially in the early, you know, days and hours of that. And God has just been faithful. And we still have days, as we all do, and we as a family still carry that broken heart. And some days, you know, my bride will just still be so angry and I just don't get it. I still don't get it. You know, there's so many other ways God could have done all these wonderful things other than this way. And yet I'm gonna keep. I'm gonna trust you, God and I.
- [28:07]
Co-host or Guest
Love David as a man after God's own heart, he's known. And as I'm hearing you share, I. I can't help but think like God loves us so much. He loves David. He loves you so much. He's wanting honesty, you know, he's wanting not just the polish, not the well rehearsed facade. And we sometimes I feel like we've Got to come and like, he's this, this big, you know, I've got to be all dressed up, buttoned up. But God's wanting, as you see in the Psalms, he's wanting. He's just wanting you, your heart, the honesty. And in the garden, when Adam and Eve, he's like, where are you? Why are you hiding? He's like, hey, it's okay. And shame keeps us, you know, the pain of everything we're going through keeps us hidden. But God's saying, hey, I can handle your honesty. I love you that much. And to see that, and that's. That's really hard is to. I feel like to be that honest and raw. But reading the Psalms, you go, oh, man, this is God's heart, is that he just wants to know you in that way. And so to hear, to hear that, so encouraging and just for many people that, you know, when you're reading the Bible, it's like, I don't. I've got to get to a certain point first. I've got to get. You know. But God's saying no. Wherever you're at, it doesn't matter where you outcome as you are, no matter how much it hurts, no matter what you're going through. The loss of a daughter, bro, unimaginable. But just to tell God, this is what. This is what I'm feeling, and let him heal that. Do you feel like post now, how many 18 years you say?
- [29:43]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah.
- [29:44]
Co-host or Guest
Do you feel like from a healing perspective, you say there's moments and there's times where you still struggle, you're still angry. What. Where do you feel like from a healing perspective is the. Is the goal, is the where? Do you. What explain to me the theology or the thoughts or the wrestles with the level of healing of that. Do you feel like, man, you're looking for total healing? Do you feel like it's a part of just the story? And this scar that God's using, because I wrestle with that. I wrestle with like God, full healing, partial healing scars, open wounds. That's something.
- [30:24]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah, we. We say it was my son, actually who. Who. So I have to give credit to him for this phrase when he talks about our family, because my sons Caleb and Will are now. Are now adults. They were teenage guys, junior senior in high school when that happened. And so journeying through that together as a family, the impact that losing their little sister had on them, obviously, incredible impact on them as well. And my son Caleb in an interview, they do music as well. Their band, Colony House. Shout out a Little shameless plug for the greatest rock band on the planet. If you want to listen to the greatest rock band ever since the history of the world, check out Colony House. Amazing songwriter, my son and drummer, Will Franklin, his brother and our other son. But he was talking in an interview about our family. And how have you guys processed this? Because there were many moments in the earliest days where we really felt like, gosh, I don't think we will ever. I don't think it'll ever be. Feel appropriate to laugh again. I'd hear laughter, you know, in those early days in some part of the room, and I think, man, I don't think I'll ever. My heart will ever be light again. To feel it is appropriate to even laugh because there's this weird thing with grief, at least in our case, and, you know, stuff you wrestle with, like to honor the loss and the pain and our daughter and her memory in her life. It will never be, you know, okay to laugh because that would somehow dishonor this. This depth of sadness and pain that we carry, we will carry with us until, you know, until we see her. Her face and Jesus face. And. And then with time, you know, God does give you back that gift of laughter, you know, with music and a lot of music that I'd written, I thought, I can't ever imagine, you know, standing on a stage in your hat that says saddle up, or following the Lord. A song that people that listen to my music over the years know, well, called the Great Adventure that is actually, at the time, from a pretty dark place where God just met me with his grace in a way that made me go, wow, okay. This is like God is invited, calling us on an adventure. Let's go. It's going to go mountains, it's going to go valleys. It's going to be hard. It's going to be harder than you ever thought. But I will be with you and I'll be leading you. And this is an adventure of following me. Will you come with me? And so that song was written out of that, but it became this, you know, summer camp theme song for, you know, everybody just, you know, fist in there, like, let's go saddle up your horses. And so I thought, will it ever be okay to play that song again? Because, you know, that song is full of, you know, just joy and passion and let's go. And, you know, so with time, yes I was, and I sing that song now, it took on a whole new meaning, you know, so many of the lyrics that, you know, I had already written all of a sudden, okay, these now even mean more. I can sing these with a greater conviction and all of that. But. But my son was asked in this thing about how is your family doing? And all of that, and he used this phrase, we hobble, but I think we hobble. Well, it's kind of that same thing of we have been crippled by this. We are not. The full healing, I believe, certainly for us is not going to come until, you know, we see Jesus, until the day he finishes wiping every tear from our eyes. I mean, verses like, you know, Jesus Wept became so, like one of the most powerful, precious verses in all of scripture. You know, where when I was a kid, that was just kind of almost the memory verse. If you got called on in, you know, Sunday schools, like anybody got a Bible verse. I got one. Jesus wept. You know, it was almost more of, like, you know, that I didn't again begin to understand the enormity of that story that here Jesus is knowing, I'm going to raise Lazarus from the dead dead. I'm going to turn this whole thing around. It's going to end up in a crazy party before this day is over. But, my friend, Lazarus is going to die again, you know, this side of heaven. I mean, this isn't, you know, this isn't heaven. This isn't a final resurrection, but I'm going to raise him from the dead. But still Jesus stood there with his friends and entered into that moment of grief and sadness and raged at death and wept with his friends. And that has been. You know, I think we are living in what C.S. lewis calls the shadowlands. You know, we're living with these broken stories and broken hearts and even the healing, you know, that comes, carries with it. I mean, for years we got to operate through the work My wife and I are part of advocating for orphans and adoption called Show Hope. We got to work for 10 years in China, very specifically at a place that cared for children that are. That have some severe medical special needs. And the place was built in honor and named after our daughter Maria. It was called Maria's Big House of Hope, named after her entrance into the kingdom by this song, Big House. We thought, well, let's call it Maria's Big House of Hope. It is where she wanted to be. And we had to care for thousands of children for about 10 years because of things with governments and all things that have changed in recent years, it became impossible for us to continue that work. But for 10 years, we got to see many, many children healed, put in, you know, into Families adopted children that weren't going to survive. Many that did pass away, but they passed away with dignity and with care and someone loving them and, you know, weeping for them. And so it was a beautiful place that bear, you know, that carried our daughter's name. We saw the beauty of that. It was like, that is an amazing, beautiful thing that came, the beauty from these ashes. But even that carried with it a sadness that we wish, selfishly, this place didn't even exist. Because my wife would say if she was sitting here, if God gave me the choice, I'm sorry, And lightning strike me, I just would take my daughter back if I had the option. So you carry. That's the hobble. You hobble with that reality. And yet God, you experience God in it. You experience healing in it. And it's the already and it's the not yet. You're still waiting for the ultimate, you know, wiping of the. Every tear from your eyes.
- [37:02]
Podcast Host
Yeah. I think hearing all of this, it just reminds me of how we're not supposed to do this alone.
- [37:08]
Co-host or Guest
Right.
- [37:08]
Podcast Host
How we're not supposed to handle the grief. We can't.
- [37:12]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yes.
- [37:13]
Podcast Host
That's why he asks us to cast, you know, all of our fears, all of our worries, all of our anxieties, everything on him. Because we're just. We're just not meant to carry it on our own.
- [37:21]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah.
- [37:21]
Podcast Host
And I think it is almost such a beautiful depiction of that because you are gonna hobble until you see her face again. You know, And I just think that that reminder of we can't do this alone is just. It's definitely something that I keep thinking of throughout this and thinking of somebody that's listening right now who has lost a child or lost a spouse or someone they love. What would you say to them as they walk through grief?
- [37:51]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Oh, wow. Well, just first of all, one of the great challenges, one of the great, I believe lies that the enemy of goodness and all things beautiful that reflect the heart of God would whisper lies of, you are alone. You are the only person who has ever hurt this way. And how dare God, you know, put. Put you through this, all of those. Those kinds of voices. And in fact, I mean, just because I've put all these thoughts in song lyrics, it's weird to say I wrote this song lyric, like, listen to this song. Not that at all, but just the. You know, there was a lyric in a song that I wrote, don't lose Heart, you know, that says, you know, here's you're having. It's another sleepless night, you're praying hope comes with a morning light, Right? Right now, you're feeling like you've lost this fight. Fear is screaming out your name. You say, God help me, and you wonder if he's even listening. The truth is, I've wondered the very same thing. So you don't have to feel ashamed. Let me walk through this with you and tell you all that I've learned to be true. Don't lose heart. And it's been to your point of, we need each other. We need others to come around us and remind us of what is true, that God is with us, that he is faithful, and for reasons that we cannot understand. Because you asked the question, why do you ask the question? Why do you wrestle with that? Absolutely. And we have learned that there is not shame in that. Again, the wonderful thing about scripture, about the Psalms, that God never said, don't you dare ask why. Don't you dare question me. That is not the heart of our Father. We begin to understand. It's probably the most amazing picture that someone gave me. And in fact, they gave me a literal picture, a physical picture that they found of this. And as I was wrestling with all of the questions and continue to with God, why didn't you step in? Why don't you step in in these moments? Because if I believe you are good and all powerful, all present, I just can't. I can't understand that and don't understand it. I know I won't. But I'm still going to wrestle with those questions of why. And he gave me this visual of a horse that is, with all of its strength, just straining to charge in to, you know, to a situation to rescue. And you can see just the intensity in the eyes of this powerful, strong animal just wanting to charge in to rescue. And yet you see this bridle being held back, this restraining being pulled back to where it's straining against it. It's straining with every bit of its strength. And you pull the scope back and realize that the horse is actually itself restraining itself. It is actually holding itself back, pulling against, wanting to charge in. But for reasons that we won't understand this side of heaven, that that restraining is actually the horse itself. And that, for me, somehow is just this incredible picture of, okay, God, everything, you know, in his goodness and his love wants to charge in. And he has ultimately charged in and rescued and conquered death and the grave. And, you know, as Tim Keller says, you know, entered into, you know, the darkness of death and blew a hole out the backside of it. So it has Been done, but we're still in that already in the. Not yet a fully understanding and recognizing that, and for reasons right now that we cannot understand, wouldn't be able to. God restrains himself in some way that I don't understand the theology of it. I'm sure there are plenty of theologians that could probably do a lot better job of explaining that. But for me, that was something to be able to hold onto and be able to bring in with all of those why questions and be able to say, God, ultimately it is. It comes down to, will I trust you? I either trust you or I don't. And I'm going to. All the chips are going on that side of the table. I'm just going to. I'm going to trust you. And as you know, my family and I have done that. We've continued daily three steps forward, two steps back, sometimes 30 steps back in that process. And God's good and faithful and kind in that journey as we kind of hobble on. But he has continued to meet us in our journey, and I believe he does for all of us in all of our journeys.
- [43:00]
Co-host or Guest
It's beautiful. I think that the idea of hobbling well is so potent. It's so potent. That's going to be my phrase. I hobble. I don't know about well, but I want to hobble.
- [43:13]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Well, that's the thing. That's the goal, is not to not hobble. But can we hobble? Well, that's what my son was saying. I believe as I look at my family, we're beat up, we got war wounds all over. You know, we're hobbling, but, you know, we got that limp that we're going to carry. But he said, I look at my family, I think by God's grace, we're hobbling well, and we'll keep carrying.
- [43:33]
Co-host or Guest
And as a father myself, I think I've learned that a lot of the lens of my understanding, the very limited understanding I have, comes from with my sons, with my daughters. And I think of the verse, God will permit the righteous to stumble, but he won't let them fall.
- [43:51]
Podcast Host
Yes, that's good.
- [43:52]
Co-host or Guest
And my son, if I just do everything for him, protect him from everything, it's not helpful. It's not. It doesn't help him become a great man.
- [44:03]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah.
- [44:03]
Co-host or Guest
And although it's sometimes like, you know, when he was younger, he would jump off the bed, try to, and I'd be right there and I'd stop him and save him every time.
- [44:12]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah.
- [44:12]
Co-host or Guest
But then I realized, no, this I can't do this for the rest of his life. And so I don't want him to hurt himself. I don't want him to do irreversible damage. But at the same time, maybe I'll just let him feel it a little bit. And guess what? It helped him realize certain things that without. If I had just been there all the time. And so I think God is close to the brokenhearted one. I think, two, that he loves us enough. This is a really hard thing to understand, but consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds. Because through perseverance, there's a maturity and a completion that's happening in you. There's a process that's happening through the Hubble that I couldn't get otherwise. And that's kindness. And I understand that as a father, but as a son, I didn't get it. No, I didn't get it. And so when I. When it's happening to me, I'm like, God, why? Yeah, and that's. And that's part of it. It's like, trust me, son. I know what I'm doing. And I say that to my boy all the time. And every time, I'm like, God, why? And it's just like, trust me, I know what I'm doing. And I think that is beautiful. It's hard. It's just this constant, this relationship. There's certain elements that require that exist, that have to exist in a relationship to be a relationship. You know, one of them is trust. Another one is that we have to have free choice. You can't have a real relationship if it's. If you don't have free choice. And so out of the flow and effects of that. And that's why I do believe that questions back to the knocking on the hearts, the questions that we have are so important to lean in. God's not afraid of your why. Yeah, when my son asked me why, dad, I'm like, I give him the right answer. He might not like the right answer, but I'm like, hey, trust me. I love you. I'm for you. I love you more than you ever understand. And I think God says that to me every time I cry out. I'm like, God. You see it in David in the Psalms. Back to that. It's like God. And God comforts him, says, hey, I know you don't get it, but just trust me. This is an important part of a real relationship. This makes it real. The fact that I don't just give you all the answers. So.
- [46:18]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Amen.
- [46:18]
Co-host or Guest
It's Beautiful.
- [46:20]
Podcast Host
Well, as we. As we wrap up, I just. I'm curious to know, is there anything specific we can pray for you about in this season that you're in or walking into or walking out of?
- [46:30]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Thank you. You know, I really. My bride Mary Beth and I, 41 years, married in just a few weeks now, I guess about a month, and. And we've actually done the unthinkable for many years. We've been approached about, would you guys write a book together? She shared her story and her journey in a beautiful way in a book called Choosing to See after we lost our daughter, but kind of her whole life story of ending up marrying a musician when she really probably would have much rather married an accountant or someone who had a much more stable life and all that that's been like for her. And then me, I wrote memoirs, a book a few years ago of my journey, and just all of that. But we always have resisted because our journey together has been. You talk about hobbling. Boy, oh, boy, it's been a hobbled journey. And yet here we are. In fact, the book's called Still Here because by God's grace, we're still here after these many years and so thankful for it. So, anyway, we've been sharing kind of our story and our journey, and we've always resisted writing a book that might be looked at as a marriage book because we honestly feel like we can write a book on here's what not to Do. But the to do books that mostly line the shelves of, you know, the love languages and all these things do these things which are really helpful, you know, in some ways for a lot of people. We don't have that story. We're like. We can just tell you all the things, the ways that we've messed it up, and somehow God has been faithful. And it's kind of like about two pages. We screwed it up. And God's faithful. There's our. There's our book.
- [48:12]
Co-host or Guest
That's the Bible, though. That's literally what the Bible is.
- [48:15]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
It is.
- [48:15]
Co-host or Guest
I know.
- [48:16]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Yeah. What not to do. And then God. God is grace, is merciful and gracious. So we decided, well, we'll do this. And. And, you know, I think this season of Life, just to answer your question, we just. We. Our. Our hope is we would steward, you know, well, this season now with all of the, you know, the battle scars and the good and the bad and the ugly, you know, we have again, by the grace of God, seven little people. Call me Pop Pops and her Grammy. They are the great joys of our lives. Those are seven new chapters in our life story. God has given us, you know, in the last 18 years to give us, you know, that wind in our sails, that laughter in our hearts again. And so just we want to share that, you know, that in a really faithful way and just steward this season of life, you know, in a good way. Just enjoy each other and what God's given us together. Also, you know, our work with Show Hope, we see the opportunities greater than they've ever been for the church to really, you know, the mission of Show Hope is to engage the church to care for orphans and reduce the barriers to adoption. And we are given opportunities to do that in ways we never imagined. And so we just want to keep being fair, faithful with that. We see opportunities for that ahead. We don't have the energy we had when we were, you know, started this, you know, 30 years ago or whatever, 25 years ago, but we still have a lot of. A lot of energy, and we have a little bit more wisdom maybe, than we did then. So just stewarding all of that well is probably the prayer we would ask for as we continue to hobble on.
- [49:55]
Podcast Host
All right, well, I'm going to pray us out, and then we will wrap things up.
- [49:58]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Amazing. Thank you.
- [49:59]
Podcast Host
Dear Heavenly Father. Lord, we just say thank you for these microphones and the conversations that we've had through them, Lord, and that everything that is coming out of our voice is just honoring you. And we just say thank you for that opportunity. God, we're just praying over Stephen today and his family, him and Mary Beth, as they enter this new season and this new book. God, we just pray that you would help them to steward this next season well, that you would give them joy, that you would give them just sweet moments with their grandkids and their children, Lord, that you would just open their hearts to know you and that these new seasons, these new bits of life, Lord, they would just get to know you better. God, we just. We pray over Show Hope, and we just ask that you supernaturally just continue to bless this mission, Lord, and as. As it continues to grow and as that kid, it continues to require more focus and more time and energy. God, I just pray over Stephen and Mary Beth that you would give them supernatural energy to be able to put their. Their wisdom in it, their energy in it, their lives in it, Lord, and you would just use it to continue to bless so many lives. God, we just say thank you again for this podcast and these microphones, and we just. We're grateful for you and the mission behind this, too. In your heavenly name we pray. Amen.
- [51:17]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Amen. Amen. Thank you.
- [51:20]
Co-host or Guest
Such a legacy, Father, like, anointing on your life, like. And I just want to say that this generation is starving for fathers. And I really pray over this book and this whole next season just for the total blessing, because they're still here. There's not many fathers that are still here. Yeah, there's not. There's not many people who've walked with a hobble and, you know, kept the faith, fought the fight, and finished the race, you know, and the long term longevity is there. And so just thank you. I honor you for the longevity and just the humility and meekness of your life.
- [52:01]
Stephen Curtis Chapman
Thank you, brother. Thank you.
- [52:12]
Podcast Host
This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.