← The Bobby Bones Show
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- [00:00]
Brendan Patrick Hughes
My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention. This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell bent effort to sabotage a war.
- [00:14]
Allie Beth Stuckey
J. Edgar Hoover was furious. He was out of his mind and he wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees.
- [00:23]
Brendan Patrick Hughes
Listen to Divine intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:31]
Granger Smith
How did you learn what a healthy church is? Tell me. Walk me through that.
- [00:37]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Yes, well, I was raised Christian and I'm very grateful for that. I was raised also going to a Christian school and I credit first of all my parents for just how they discipled me. And yes, my mom and my dad, but primarily my mom. And I think a lot of people would say that just because you spend the most time with your mom growing up and seeing her example of every single morning having her journal and her coffee and her Bible out, how she diligently prayed with me, how she, how she sang hymns with me every night and we were just very close and had that connection and I just followed her example in loving scripture and loving worship. More than the Christian school kindergarten through 12th grade, more than the Awanas, more, more than the Southern Baptist tradition of going to church on Wednesdays and Sunday mornings and Sunday nights, which were all beautiful and all blessings like. I credit just the example and the diligence of my parents in discipleship. And also my grandmother lived with me until I was 13. We were very close. And also per example, both of my, my grandmother and my mom were both teachers by trade for a while before I was born. And they used that gift that God gave them to really disciple my brothers and me, but a lot me because my brothers are a lot older than me. So anyway, I was just the beneficiary of a lot of good teaching. But it wasn't really until high school that I started taking my faith seriously and personally digging into apologetics and theology. That's when I started considering if I was what is typically referred to as Reformed, although I wouldn't have necessarily called myself that, reading C.S. lewis and Tim Keller and John Pipe Cooper, Matt Chandler. At the time, this was all probably junior in high school and I actually started going to another church independent of my parents that was maybe a little bit more in that direction. My friend gifted me with an ESV study Bible when I was a freshman in college, which totally shaped my theology and still does to this day. And I would say I kind of marched steadily towards that, like Reformed camp. And that really Shaped my theology. And so that means a lot of exegesis, a lot of theology, a lot of Bible. And I had been somewhat raised with a little bit of a prosperity tinge, I would say, to some of my theology, or at least there was an acceptance of the, like Joel Osteen theology a bit. And so when I dug into biblical theology and expository preaching, it was like a whole new intellectual world for me. And so when my husband and I got married, because shared that love, shared that passion, and we knew that we wanted. We wanted expository preaching when we selected a church. Now we're Baptists and we're both Southern Baptists. And so that's not typically like in the Reformed camp, that's typically Presbyterian. And we don't have to get into the nitty gritty of everything that means. But that's primarily what we were looking for. We were looking for church that teaches exegetically and that sticks to the word and that isn't going to compromise when everyone else is compromising. 2020 was a big test for everyone, and I was very thankful that my church stayed open, that my church stood firm, that my church has been clear. And also another thing for us is that it would be easy to get involved there. Solid churches, big churches that are great, but they're hard to get involved in. Like, we went to a church when we were just married that we, we tried to join a small group. You couldn't even join a small group anytime you wanted. It was every six months and only if there was an opening. And so, like, what were you supposed to do? Just wait in the pews until someone maybe came up to you and, I don't know, welcomed you in? But if not, you're just kind of going to be stranded. The church that we're in now, it was so easy to get plugged in, to go to a Sunday school class and to find, you know, those people and those opportunities to serve. And so those are the two of the things that we were looking for.
- [04:58]
Granger Smith
Yeah, that's fantastic. We're on the exact same page with that. And I'm. I am not against big churches. I feel, I feel like I need to say that often because. Because it starts to sound like I'm pro small church and that's the only way to do it. There are plenty unhealthy small churches, but. But the. You need to have enough shepherds for the amount of sheep you have. And yeah, that's. That's usually what's lost. So if you have a big ranch you would want, you have a lot of cattle, you want a lot of ranch hands for the amount of cattle. And, and usually we don't see churches that way. You have a, you have a, a mega church and just not enough leadership. That's why people get lost. That's why people aren't responding. You can't get into a small group or whatever. So in that aspect, it's wiser to be in a church that's, that's the right size proportionally to its eldership. I don't, I honestly, sitting here right now, I don't know the church that you go to, but I probably know them. If we talked offline, I'm sure I know them because it's that, that's exactly what I would want my family to, to experience in church. And that's what I want any of my listeners to know about church. Because I have so many people, I'm sure you too. So many people go, you know what? I don't need church. I find God in the woods. I love hunting. And that's where I really experience God. And the idea of being involved in a local body, serving a local body, being served by a local body is rare. And then to see you on your platform, be involved and be in the nursery is. It's incredible. It's an incredible blessing.
- [06:41]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Well, we see a lot of people, and this is not to say, you know, what I do is like, very small potatoes compared to those who are, you know, like, who have huge mega platforms and get super famous and all of that. But any form of platform or any form of influence that anyone has, there's always going to be an opportunity to get sucked into the rat race and get sucked into the opportunism and the ambition that exists there. And I think, like, the cheat code, outside of just the grace of God and the protection of God, that has nothing to do with my own efforts. But in addition to that, like the cheat code to avoiding that craziness, the gossip, the backstabbing, the betrayal that even exists in, like, smaller conservative media, because all of that exists. The corruption, the, I mean, there's just craziness that goes on behind the scenes. There is living a normal life and having a normal family, not only having, like a normal loving marriage where you spend a ton of time together, you travel together, you're not like traveling off by yourself all the time, but you're together with your family. The closer you can be to real everyday people who know you, who know your life, who can speak into your life, who can Say you're off on that. You're going too far in that direction. You need to say no to that. That's not good to you, or that's not good for you or whatever it is. Or encourage you, like, on the other end, like, yes, you are doing great, whatever it is. The more that you can be plugged into your church, the more that you can try as much as you can to just maintain normal friendships. People who don't have any kind of platform, like, that is the cheat code. That is how you stay honest and normal and sane. People ask me all the time, how do you talk about, like, the news and all of this sad stuff without getting just sad and stressed and spent? And it's because I have. It's because of my life. It's because of my family. It's because of my marriage. In addition, of course, to the grace of God. It's because of all of the normalcy and stability that I have. That I think is what charges me and gives me the ability to talk about the chaos that's going on in the world because I have a respite in my everyday life. So that's advice that I would give to anyone.
- [09:05]
Granger Smith
Yeah, that's good. Can you think of a time when someone in your family said, allie, you're off. You're off on this?
- [09:10]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Oh, my dad calls me all the time. And it's like, I mean, not big deal. I mean, he is, like, besides my husband, like, my biggest cheerleader ever. And so I never doubt that. I mean, he's on the show all the time. If my husband, for some reason can't travel with me, my dad travels with me all the time. And, yeah, so he's great. And I always trust him and I always will hear him out, but he will definitely be like, you know, I think that you should have talked to that person privately before you brought that up on the show. And I'm like, I think that you're right. I shouldn't have because. Or, you know, I think that you made a wrong call about that. Or here's what you're not seeing about that. And so my dad does that. My mom has at times that I try to be really careful and really discerning with everything I say, but my mom has at times been like, you know what? I don't think that this was the most. The best thing that you could have said on social media today about that. My brother a few years ago. Okay, So I don't cuss at all. I especially, like, not publicly, but I Think I said something one time, like, I don't know, maybe seven years ago. I think I said, like, bad A or something on Twitter. Now I'm talking about publicly here.
- [10:22]
Granger Smith
Okay, sure.
- [10:24]
Allie Beth Stuckey
And so. And my brother texted me and was like, you don't need to say something like that. Like, it just doesn't add anything to your argument. And I was like, you're totally right. There's no reason for me to say something like that. It doesn't make me sound smarter. And if anything, it could cause someone else to stumble. And so, yeah, there's a lot of people in my life who. It's not constant criticism by any means, I would say, you know, by and large, it's a lot of, like, encouragement. And you go, and that's awesome. But I definitely have people who are not afraid to say, I don't think so. I don't think that's right. And obviously, I try to preempt those mistakes by going to them and being like, what do you think about this? Should I talk about this? Should I approach this? And I don't always get it right, you know, by any means. But I'm just thankful that I have people who are willing to speak into that.
- [11:17]
Granger Smith
So what do you do? So your dad goes to you, ali, I think you're wrong in this. You start to agree with them, he rebukes you. Do you go back on. On social media and correct anything, or do you let it go?
- [11:30]
Allie Beth Stuckey
I'm trying to think about the specific instance I've definitely done that I have definitely apologized for, either my tone or something that I said. And certainly if I ever make a mistake, I always will correct it publicly. And obviously, I want to avoid that. No one likes being wrong. Everyone's goal is to be great all the time. And so I try to avoid that as much as I possibly can. But I will always correct the record if I say something wrong or if I misrepresented something or if I unfairly criticized someone. And I can't even think about, like, a specific instance because I try not to do that, but I have. I've definitely gone back. I actually just had to correct the record on something today. It was something my guest said, not something I said, but she kind of threw someone under the bus, and it was. It ended up being the wrong person. It's a little hard sometimes with the guests, too, because you can't always fact check them in the moment. But, yes, because, you know, I want people to be able to trust the show, and so being able to take that Feedback is important.
- [12:33]
Granger Smith
Yeah. Where do you think this show goes? Do you think it, it continues to grow, like it's growing now? Do you think it reaches a level where you say, you know what? I think. I think that's enough.
- [12:44]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Hmm. I'm trying to decide what I want to like, what I want to say publicly. But to be candid, I don't see the show lasting forever. I love it.
- [12:54]
Granger Smith
Yeah.
- [12:55]
Allie Beth Stuckey
But I have, we have some other, my husband and I have some other ideas too. In, in addition. Right. I have no, by the way, like, I have no plans to quit the show. Like that is not on the timeline. I love it. I truly love what I do and I love talking and all of that. So I plan on relatable, lasting, but talking long term. And the next like 10 to 15 years. I don't see myself going into a studio and having a four times a week show. I just, I just don't, I don't know what exactly it looks like. I don't see us quitting all of this altogether, but we have some other ideas for some other projects that hopefully continue to influence Christians to think about the things that matter, but does not rely on my daily voice, if that makes sense. So that's, that's what I'll say.
- [13:47]
Granger Smith
It makes total sense. I won't push you on that. I, I, because I understand that we live in such an interesting time where legacy media doesn't dominate the, the consumption of, of the people. So there, I would say that because I there, there are arguably, probably, let's say millions of people that rely on you for their consumption of news and politics and Christian world order. It's crazy. And this wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. You wouldn't have had this opportunity 10 years ago. It's changed so much. And you've really challenged me, actually, because it's hard for me to, you've challenged me that as a Christian I need to be in politics at some level. I can't completely avoid it.
- [14:38]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Yeah.
- [14:39]
Granger Smith
And I think to myself, how do I keep up with it though? Like, how would I keep informed about it? And so where do you get your information? Where are you informed to then give your Christian worldview about it?
- [14:55]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Well, I think there are different places you would go. A pastor versus a podcaster. And obviously you have a podcast too, but it's not primarily focused on politics. I, I don't think that a pastor, and I know you agree with this, needs to talk about the news every week from the pulpit or even needs to know everything that's going on in the 24 hour news cycle. I would say that a pastor needs to know about policy, in particular policy that is going to affect his congregants and his flock. And I think that pastors in general probably need to do a better job of paying attention to, I'm not always saying preaching about, but paying attention to local policy, especially any kind of local policy that has an effect on their congregants and their congregants children. Like, personally I would love to see, like say there was a local school where a bunch of parents in the congregation were sending their kids and there was, I don't know, some kind of measure that was being pushed forward that would allow boys into girls bathrooms. Or maybe it's the promotion of pornographic materials in school. I think it would be completely within the purview of a pastor to speak into that. And maybe they don't get into the nitty gritty of the policy, maybe they do, but to ensure that their congregants know the underneath biblical principles of that. Like, what is the role of the parent, what is the role of the church, what is the role of the civil government? What, what is the role of the parent when it comes to education? Like, how should we think about public education versus Christian education? What should we think about gender? What should we think about sexuality? All of those things, they have become political. Unfortunately. It's not that pastors are becoming political, it is that politics has become very theological. And pastors as like, you know, the theologians and the shepherds of their flock, where those two things intersect, especially when there is going to be a tangible impact on their community. I do think have a responsibility to speak up. And I've said before, and I'm sure you agree with this, I might have even said it in our conversation that pastors, if they are preaching faithfully through the Bible, it's only going to take them 27 verses into Genesis to get into quote unquote politics. Because right there we see that God created us male and female in his image. So we get the sanctity of life, we get the definition of gender and the definition of marriage all in one verse in the very first chapter of the first book of the Bible. Those are called culture war issues, but those are really creation issues. And so if a pastor is simply preaching the Bible, not talking about so called politics at all, he's going to wade into those controversial subjects and pastors who avoid those things. It's not that you're avoiding politics, it's that you're avoiding scripture, that's inconvenient. And so I just think, I think it's inevitable. There are probably a variety of ways to do it faithfully, but I do think there is a responsibility there.
- [17:59]
Brendan Patrick Hughes
My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention. This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell bent effort to sabotage a war.
- [18:13]
Allie Beth Stuckey
J edgua was furious somebody violated the FBI and he wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees.
- [18:22]
Granger Smith
The FBI went around to all their.
- [18:24]
Brendan Patrick Hughes
Neighbors and said to them, do you think these people are good Americans? It's got heists, tragedy, a trial of the century, and the God damnedest love story you've ever heard.
- [18:35]
Allie Beth Stuckey
I picked up the phone and my thought was this is the most important phone call I'll ever make in my life. I couldn't believe it. I mean, Brendan, it was divine intervention.
- [18:47]
Brendan Patrick Hughes
Listen to Divine intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:59]
Granger Smith
You know, at some point in our lives, things got a lot easier@yee yee.com and grangersmith.com when me and my two brothers switched over to Shopify and let them handle the checkout portion of our website. I know that kind of sounds complicated, but if you're wanting to start a business or start some kind of e commerce marketing company, you need to think about Shopify to handle all your checkout needs like so many thousands of other companies have done across the world. They handle credit card sales and all other online digital sales and help you concentrate on your creativity so you could concentrate on your product and how the website itself looks and they deal with the nitty gritty details of the checkout process. So upgrade your business and get the same checkout as we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comgranger all lowercase. Go to shopify.comgrainger to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.comgranger As a reminder, you can always get a hold of me on cameo.com grangersmith it's a great way to get a message, a video message from me from anywhere in the world to whoever you want to send it to. You go to cameo.com grangersmith and you fill out the whatever you want me to say. Happy anniversary, happy birthday, maybe a word of encouragement to someone that needs to hear it and that person may be you. And then I'll send you a video message. It's super easy and it's A good gift. I've been doing this for many years now. It's a good gift to someone that is impossible to buy for you don't know what to get them. Once again, go to cameo.com grangersmith.
- [20:33]
Allie Beth Stuckey
I.
- [20:33]
Granger Smith
Gotta tell you all about this. Have you heard about Yee Ye Fest? It's happening this year, May 9th and 10th, in Georgetown, Texas at the Yee Yee Farm. So you can come hang out with us, meet my brothers, my family. We'll all be there. We've got a truck show happening. We've got a mud bog competition, kind of like we did last year. But the new edition this year is a concert by me and my band and my old crew. This is not a tour. This is not me getting back into music. This is one time every year we hope to do a concert for my friends and family, especially Maverick, who's never seen me play live before. So come out, have a meal with me and my family on Friday night. I'm going to give a little devotional from the Bible, maybe play an acoustic song or two. This is really a once in a lifetime experience. And if you want to find out more, go to Yee yee dot com. Yeah, I think you're right. How do you word it? You say, politics affects policy, policy affects people.
- [21:24]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Politics matter because policy matters. Because people matter. Politics affects policy, policy affects people.
- [21:29]
Granger Smith
Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. And I need to be better about just being aware because sometimes I watch you and I go, she just is always aware of the changing tide of even I'm behind.
- [21:45]
Allie Beth Stuckey
I feel like I'm behind. I don't know if that makes you feel better or worse, but because I don't even have the daily News show, I've got two interviews a week that I talk about. Evergreen stuff, theology, whatever, and then two where we try to talk about culture, politics. And I never, ever, ever have time to cover everything.
- [22:04]
Granger Smith
Sure.
- [22:05]
Allie Beth Stuckey
That's going on. And honestly, sometimes you just need to ignore the current news cycle because it's going to fade out and it's really not that important. And you just have to have the discernment to know.
- [22:17]
Granger Smith
Yeah, you're good. I totally agree. Let's go to where this kind of all intersects and that is this book. Toxic Empathy with a Cross. Right there, the X. I like that. Yeah, it works really good. Toxic Empathy. How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion. This is a very important discussion. It's a very important book. And this is something that Christians have been talking about for maybe around a decade. In a way, the Misdefinition of empathy is. And in your book, it, this kind of begins for you in 2020, which it did for a lot of us. You kind of walked through at the beginning of your book the George Floyd incident. And I was right there with you. I remember during George Floyd, during that you're watching everyone post the black squares and you kind of describe how there's the secular people, then there's Christians, but they're kind of coming together and it's like, oh, is this a cool moment of unity? Maybe. I remember my first reaction was, and I posted this, my first reaction. And I was an idiot for kind of a knee jerk. But I was like, all people matter. You know, and that, that sounds crazy now because that in itself is, it's like equivalent to a racial slur these days. All people matter. And I, I do remember deleting that and trying to rethink why. Wait, why? Because I've got, I got so much hate. And it was before I even knew that that was a thing that was just. I remember thinking, I really need to sit with this. And I could see in your book, you walking through this yourself, kind of unpacking the implications as one thing led to another as we watched it unfold. Fascinating. And I love that that's the way you start this book because it takes us on a very important journey that, that everyone needs to talk about and that is our empathy of just like a bunch of words have been hijacked and, and it's not for our good. You define it at the very beginning. You're saying the ability to place yourself in another person's shoes with or without having a similar experience is typically called empathy. Okay, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But then you say empathy has been hijacked for the purpose of conforming well intentioned people to particular political agendas. Specifically, it's been co opted by the progressive wing of American society to convince people that the progressive position is exclusively the one of kindness and morality. This is where you call it toxic empathy.
- [25:05]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Yes.
- [25:07]
Granger Smith
Fascinating stuff. You talk about how this, you say your feeling and my feeling too. No one wants to be seen as unempathetic because a person who completely lacks empathy may be called a narcissist. And we're so scared of that word. Like, oh man, I don't want to be a narcissist. But you say it extorts a real good desire that most people have, which is to be and to be perceived as kind and right. So, so then we, you unpack. But Empathy and kindness are not synonymous, and neither are empathy and compassion. Kindness describes how we treat someone, either in word or deed. Compassion means to suffer with someone who's struggling. Both kindness and compassion are necessary components of love, but empathy literally means to be in the feelings of another person. Empathy by itself is neither loving nor kind. It's just an emotion. Love, on the other hand, is a conscious choice to seek good for another person. That's. That's. Oh, that is so important. It's so important to be said, and it's. You laid it out in. In. In such a. A transparent way. So. Thank you for this book, I should say.
- [26:24]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I. A lot of people were really confused in 2020, myself included, and there is a lot of. A lot of grace for the kind of back and forth you mentioned. Posting something, then deleting it, not really knowing what the right thing is, not knowing the whole context of, like, why everyone was posting. A lot of people felt that way. And it was probably only because I was kind of plugged into the news and had watched this Black Lives Matter movement, you know, come to the forefront, that I immediately was a little skeptical and struggled with that, because whenever I see something like a hashtag Black Lives Matter, I know I can't take that at face value, that it's an organization that has values that don't align with mine, and we can get into that a little bit more. So when I saw that Black Square, everyone posting it, I knew that within that posting was the assumption that George Floyd was murdered because of his race. And I could not get on board with that assumption yet, because I did not know that. No one knew that. By the way, based on the video footage that we saw, which was very scandalous to say at the time. And when I started trying to, like, push back against it and to say, look, at least look at the other people over here who are being damaged and hurt by the riots and by the looting that's going on in the name of honoring George Floyd. These people are also black. These people are innocent. These people are poor. There was this horrible video that I remember seeing of a woman who. She lived in this town. Maybe it was in Kenosha. I don't remember which town it was that ended up burning down, the stores being looted. She was like, I can't even go get my prescription medicine right now. This is like an older black lady who is just crying because her town and where she, you know, earns her livelihood and where she gets her necessities has been ransacked by these people who were rioting in the name of racial justice. And when I tried to say, look, there are other people on the side of this moral equation that we shouldn't ignore, the thing that I heard over and over again was, you know, you're not showing empathy. You're not having empathy. And of course, what they meant was, is that I'm not putting all my empathy in the direction that they want it to. My empathy isn't going the way that they want it to go. I'm supposed to apparently ignore the people over here, ignore the facts, ignore the unanswered questions, and just unconditionally support a cause, because that is the empathetic way. I was even told by some Christians that right now the truth doesn't matter because we should just show empathy. So that's really what started, you know, getting me to think about things like, okay, they're using empathy as a synonym for love, but is it really loving to lie to someone? Like, if someone says, I think all police officers are racist, I think. I think America is systemically racist from the core, that everyone who is not white is disadvantaged, that we have endemic white privilege, that the church is inherently white supremacist, all this stuff. If someone believes that, is it really loving of me to affirm it? If I know that the facts don't bear that out, and if I know that that's not even a biblical definition of justice to lump everyone in, you know, into a guilty category because of their lack of melanin, is it really loving for me and the name of empathy to say, yeah, yeah, I know you feel that way, and you are right about that, and I am here with you. To me, that would be like if my daughter, you know, three years old, said there's a monster in the corner of her room. I know it's a pile of clothes, but I say, you should be scared. That is a monster, and it's going to come get you. That's not loving. The loving thing for me to do would be to turn the light on now, not rudely, not aggressively, not discounting her feelings, but saying, I love you so much. You're protected, you're safe. Look at what this really is. And I know it's a bit more complex and layered when we're talking about all of these, you know, racial issues in the United States, which America has had. But that's. That was what I wrestled with so much in that summer of 2020, and why, what I tried to kind of, like, push back Against. And that is where this, like, when I realized, wow, this empathy, this being in one particular side's feelings, one purported victim's feelings, and ignoring everything else really is deluding a lot of people and messing up their perception of truth and justice and love and goodness. And then I saw how it manifests itself in abortion and gender, in marriage and all of these other issues, too. And that was kind of the basis of my book.
- [31:07]
Granger Smith
It's. It's fascinating because I've used that illustration similar with my son Maverick, who's three. When in, When I'm talking to men that say they're. They're weak in their faith or they've lost their faith or they don't. They don't have a faith. I try to. I think of it in terms of if faith. Having faith would be to trust someone, then you could only trust someone as far as you know them. And as God has revealed Himself through His Word, we could learn to trust him by. By learning more and more who he is through His Word. And I say Maverick could be in his room seeing shadows in the corner, and he could call for me because he's scared. He's terrified. But all I have to do is walk in there and say, I'm right here. It's okay. And he believes me because he knows me, because he trusts me. And so many times we could be scared of these, these dark shadows and, and that would only be because we don't know who is with us.
- [32:12]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Right?
- [32:12]
Granger Smith
You, you took a huge step, I believe you took a huge step with this book. Because I open it up and I'm thinking, you know, I'm wondering how you're going to lay this out. You open it up to the contents and it's like, oh, this is, this is all it says in the contents page introduction. Lie number one, abortion is healthcare. Lie number two, trans women are women. Lie number three, love is love. Lie number four, no human is illegal. Lie number five, social justice is justice. Conclusion. That's it. That's the book. And I was like, oh, man, she came with a sword. I mean, you're not messing around. It's just five lies. And you unpack each of them. You. You knew when you. I bet when the box came to your house and you got this, you pulled this book out for the first time. You must have been full of joy and at the same time, knowing the weight of what was going to happen when this went out, because you're, you're coming with a sword. How, how have you felt now that it's been five, six months since it's been out. How have you felt with the reaction? Are you cautious about reading some of the reviews, knowing that they're coming after you? Are you so confident?
- [33:38]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Let's see. I, I honestly, I didn't really, I didn't think about it like that. I didn't think, oh my gosh, this is going to make like such a huge impact and so many people to be mad about this. I knew that it was a possibility that the usual suspects would be mad. Obviously I knew progressives would not like it. I actually, the parts that I thought would be a lot more controversial haven't really, as far as I know, landed anywhere. Like for example, my whole chapter about same sex so called marriage or same sex unions and why I really think Obergefell was the wrong decision. I thought that that would make a bigger splash. My social justice chapter where I say some very inconvenient facts about crime and imprisonment in the United States, I thought that would be the thing that kind of ruffles some feathers. But really what made people the angriest is just the title. And I wasn't, I was not expecting that, that people, even though the subtitle explains what I'm talking about, that I'm not saying that every form of empathy is toxic and that all manifestations of empathy are toxic. That's, you know, I addressed that in the very introduction. But even the subtitle that says how progressives exploit Christian compassion, that is what I'm talking about. That this is a form of empathy that has been hijacked and manipulated. Not that all empathy is in itself toxic, but people have taken the title and have said, you know, David French just put an article out in the New York Times that, you know, people like Ali Beth Stuckey are against empathy and they're against anyone using their empathy to think through issues. And all kinds of people must be title. Yes. And just say, oh, you know, she doesn't have any empathy. She's against all empathy. People shouldn't have empathy for her because she doesn't have empathy for anyone. I am surprised at how much conversation and dialogue and heated debate the title alone caused. I'm thankful for it. I mean, every, every author wants the title of their book to become kind of like part of the lexicon and part of the dialogue. I wish some of the people misrepresenting it would actually read the book, even if they disagree. Like, I'm fine with the review from someone who says I didn't like it because of X, Y, Z. But read it. Read it. Beyond the first two words. But a lot of the misrepresentations just aren't truthful. To answer your question, I don't really read the. I don't read the negative reviews. I just don't. I mean, I don't think that there's any, like, good reason to. Honestly, you.
- [36:33]
Granger Smith
You can't. And I don't think anybody would advise you to. It's. It's not sustainable. I don't think we're built to sit there and read random criticism from people that we are so far disconnected with. We have no idea who they are, where they live, or what their worldview is. We have no idea. It wouldn't be healthy at all. It's barely healthy to hear criticism from someone at the grocery store right behind you in line, much less someone that's in a different country, that English is not even their first language. So I was going. That's where I was going. I was wondering if you kind of. What precautions you put up for yourself to protect yourself. I actually looked this morning and went through your Instagram from the last couple months, and I found one time that you commented on one of your posts to someone else. And so that you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought, I bet you she, she doesn't go back and look and read through to protect herself. Which would be wise.
- [37:36]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Yes, I try not to. Now. There, There are times when I have. And I was way worse about that when I first started, like when I was just posting on a blog. And like, I just think about that time wasted. People need to remember that your time can either be an expense or an investment, just like your finances. You can either just spend. Spend it and waste it, or you can get a return on it. And all of the times that I have spent reading through comments and just getting riled up about it, it's a wasted time. It's not, it's. It's not redemptive time at all. Those are not seeds that, you know, I planted that will bloom in eternity. That is like anxiety and worry and fear wasted. And so you're right, I don't typically do that. And it's not even just for that, to protect my own peace. It's because it's hard for me to have self control when I want to respond to people because I want to match their sassiness. I want to be rude back to them. I want to insult them back. And so it, you know, I mean, it inspires sin. And so I just Don't I just try not to. But I'll tell you also, like, a little story, and this is all part of the apparatus of trying to protect that. My friend the other day actually don't really, like, love it when this happens, but I had a friend and, you know, well, meaning sent me something saying, like, did you see this, like, podcast that these two people did about you talking about you, misrepresenting you? And I was like, no, I didn't see that. And so I went to my husband and I was like, hey, did you see this? And he was like, oh, yeah, I listened to it yesterday. He was like, I wanted to listen to it just to see, like, if they said anything or, you know, if there was any, like, response to you, it was fine. They're just stupid and don't worry about it. It. And so that, like, I feel very covered and, like, protected that my husband is, like, fielding a lot of that criticism. He's not responding to them, but he's looking out. And I don't feel like I. If he doesn't feel like there's a threat, that's the only thing I'm worried about. Is there a threat to my kids? Is there a threat to us? Is there some, like, crazy lie going on out there? And I feel that he is looking out for that, and if he's doing that, then I don't need to worry about it at all.
- [39:48]
Granger Smith
Yeah, Amen. That's great. I do feel like Amber covers a lot for me as well. In. In a similar way, I'll see something really negative or something that's kind of growing virally about me. And. And Amber will always be like, oh, yeah, yeah, I saw it. I was. I wasn't going to say anything about it, you know, so she'll catch it before I do. And then. Does that ever come up in the church? Are you pastored in that way? Do you ever have an elder coming? And is that ever a discussion through your husband?
- [40:20]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Okay, well, there was. I can think of a couple instances, and maybe there's been more over the years, but when last year, a couple years ago, I was randomly catching a lot of heat. All these. All of a sudden, these like. Or it seemed like all of a sudden to me, these critics came out being like, she's an undercover feminist because she has a podcast, and women shouldn't be podcasting. They shouldn't be talking about cultural issues at all. And all of a sudden, it seems like there was just this growing group of people who I would have thought, okay, we're on the same team. We're both Christian conservatives being like, no one should listen to her simply because she's a woman. This is a culture war. Women shouldn't be fighting battles. And I'm like, I'm just talking. This is. I mean, it's a metaphor. This is not a literal battle. I agree. Women shouldn't be in combat, but we're talking here. And so. But that was very stressful because it wasn't just progressives being like, ah, she's pro life, or something, because I understand those people have a different worldview. It's people kind of on my team. And it. And it went into the personal realm of, oh, wow, like, am I a good mom? Am I a good wife? Am I, like, following Ephesians 5? Like, all of this stuff, it kind of cut deep. As someone who doesn't even believe women should be pastors, women should preach. I don't call myself a feminist. I'm very much a complementarian. To have these people who call themselves beyond complementarian say, you know, I'm too liberal, that kind of hurt me. And I just remember my pastor very, like, kind of subtly but clearly and directly. He just, you know, came up to my husband and me after the sermon one day and was like, I just want you to know, like, sorry, I'm not about to cry. I just got something caught my throat.
- [42:01]
Granger Smith
No, I get it.
- [42:05]
Allie Beth Stuckey
He just said, you know, I just want you to know that we are with you, and we believe that what you are doing and how y'all are organizing your life is right and good and we support you 100%. He's also very protective of, like, our privacy. There have been times where he's been like, can I, like, direct people towards your, you know, towards your podcast before the election and stuff? Or do you want, you know, to be private? But he's been very supportive. And then when my book came out and some of the criticism that I got from people like Russell Moore and David French and all of that was out there, the executive pastor also kind of had a conversation with my husband and me after service one day and was like, I read your book. I think it's brave, it's good. It's biblical. Thank you for writing it. And that, like, coming from your pastors, it just means a lot. It means a lot. And so you just feel very protected on a variety of fronts. Family, church, and again, that insulates you from a lot. A lot of the craziness and just the exhaustion that comes with the whole news and politics world.
- [43:14]
Granger Smith
That is so encouraging to hear. It sounds like you have a very faithful church. And I, you know, to come full circle in this conversation, why it is so important for everybody, not just a famous podcaster like yourself, but for anybody to be surrounded by wise counsel, to be under expositional teaching, to be under a. In the body of a group of believers that are holding each other accountable in all the different aspects. I mean, you as a member of your church are different than the person sitting right down the aisle, but that's how a body is. An eye is different than the hand. And so to hear that you're pastored, well, to hear that your husband is your business manager, that your kids travel with you, is so encouraging and inspiring and evident in the boldness and the truthfulness that you speak with in your program and your social media. Knowing that that's grounded on a, A, A team of people that love you is encouraging to know that you're in good hands.
- [44:25]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Well, thank you. I appreciate that so much. And I also. All of this gives me a lot of freedom. I think what also makes me feel bold is that I truly feel like if at any point I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to do this, that I totally could. I don't feel any pressure from my husband or anyone to, like, keep going. He has always told me he wants. He wants to do this one. We love working together. We love building things together. But he's always said, it's you. The love for what I do goes beyond being willing to do it for free. Like, I would pay to do it. That's what he's always said. Like, he would pay to do what you do. And he's always just wanted to support that as much as possible. But he has always said, if you don't want to do that at any point, don't stop. We'll figure it out. And that, I mean, there's just so much freedom in that beauty in that, too. So, yes, I'm very, very grateful.
- [45:27]
Granger Smith
Yeah, you're holding it with an open hand, and the minute you start closing that fist around it, you're going to chase things harder. You're going to dig deeper. You're going to be. Try to be more controversial than you need to be.
- [45:39]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Yeah.
- [45:40]
Granger Smith
So the fact that you're holding it loosely is, I believe, biblical. And that's why I believe you're as happy as you are, because you just seem, with all the things going on, you could easily be jaded and depressed and frazzled and you kind of just always seem level, and it's encouraging. Let me ask you, did you have a radical conversion or are you one of those that just. You grew up in a Christian home and you. You can't remember a time when you're not. You were not a Christian?
- [46:15]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Yeah, I would not call it a radical conversion. I was definitely raised in a Christian home. Very thankful for that. I will say that there was some backtracking, if you would even call it that. I want to be as accurate as possible. But there was a time in college and a little bit after college, and I write about this in my first book, where I just decided that I wanted to see what the party life was about, and it was very stupid. And even though, you know, some people would laugh, like, oh, that's what everyone does in college, and, yeah, that's, you know, what college students should do. At least it was isolated to that. I don't think of it like that. I don't think of that period of time in my life when I was 21, 22, and I decided to party and rely on, like, unhealthy relationships for attention as just, like, this trivial time. I see it as time wasted. I. I don't beat myself up about it every day because I'm thankful for the grace of God and how he's redeemed me and all of that. But what makes me sad about it is that I knew better and I still decided to go down that path. I ended up developing an eating disorder that ended up. God ended up using that to actually, like, bring me back because a biblical counselor spoke truth into my life because of that addiction that I had. But I just. I really see that period of, like, just sin and rebellion in my life with a lot of, like, with a lot of sadness, a lot of gratitude for God for just being so gracious and bringing me back and just being as forgiving and kind as he is. But I think. I think it's good. I'm glad. I feel sad about that time. I think we should always feel sad about sin. I think we should always feel that grief about it. And it also has given me a lot of, I hope, wisdom to be able to equip my daughters for whenever, you know, whenever they go out into the world and whatever that looks like. It's so easy to trivialize sin when you're young. It's not trivial. Like, sin is never trivial. It's never trivial. That's what I want to tell people. It's never small. And so, yeah, I don't know if I would call that a radical conversion, but I also can't say that it was a straight line from A to B. If a testimony ever is a straight line from A to B. Yeah. And you know, God works all things together for our good and his glory and even that part of my life he has and will. But yes, there was that period of just turning my back on things in college that I'm. Yeah. Still sad about.
- [48:43]
Granger Smith
Yeah, that's good. Because a small view of sin is always a result of a small view of God. And your stance these days is always a big view of God. And so on behalf of so many, I say thank you and I'm honored that you, you spent some of your, your valuable time with me on the pod today. So, yeah, thank you. It's great talking with you again. Thank you so much.
- [49:07]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Yes, it was a joy to talk to you. Thank you so much for having me.
- [49:10]
Granger Smith
Of course. Thanks for joining me on the Granger Smith podcast. I appreciate all of you guys. You could help me out by rating this podcast on itunes. If you're on YouTube, subscribe to this channel. Hit that little like button and notifications bell so that you never miss any time I upload a video.
- [49:36]
Brendan Patrick Hughes
My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention. This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell bent effort to sabotage a war.
- [49:50]
Allie Beth Stuckey
J. Edgar Hoover was furious. He was out of his mind and he wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees.
- [49:59]
Brendan Patrick Hughes
Listen to Divine intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.