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A
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B
Welcome, boys and girls. Good to have you back. Men and women, dogs and cats, geese and goslings. Exactly. Every time.
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A
We'll throw all the species in there.
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B
Whoever wants to listen to the bookcase with Kate and Charlie, we are delighted to have you.
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A
We're trying to reach the barnyard community.
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B
No matter what your species, you are welcome.
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A
Happy Thursday to you.
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B
Yeah, we should mention. Well, should we talk about your Christmas present to me?
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A
Absolutely, absolutely. Because I am such a good present giver that it's worth mentioning every week.
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B
Well, she is a terrific present giver. And in this case, what Kate has given me for Christmas was a membership in the wonderful author Ann Patchett's book club. And this is not just any book club. Every month, I'm told I'm going to receive in the mail her pick for that month. And it will be a first edition and it will be signed by the author. So that's a, that's a big darn deal. And there are lots of book clubs around. I mean, Oprah has one and Reese Witherspoon has one and there's a lot. And the one we care so much about, which is the Good Morning America book club. But this is the only one that I know of that is curated by an author, a very successful novelist who knows what good writing is.
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A
Well, and having talked to her a couple of times, she takes the curation of it very seriously. She really does read all of the books and pick them herself. Yeah, and she's got some taste. Like having read a couple of her books, she's got some game. So I figured it was worth maybe investing in her taste for an entire year on behalf of a man who has everything. But what's fantastic is as soon as I get an email saying, here's the first editions club, here's what we've picked for the month, I immediately go and look up the book. And that's what I did for June. I sort of, you know, piggyback January, January, January, June.
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B
It's one of those J months.
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A
It had a J in it. It had An N in it, you know, who cares about the syllables? So, you know, when I saw what she picked for January, I went out and I read it and I loved it. Adam Haslett's Mothers and Sons. I couldn't put it down. I was about to say, very unique. And then I was gonna get a smack from you going, something can't be very unique, right? It's unique. It's about the relationships of mothers and sons. And I had never read Adam Haslitt before. Why don't you give them a little sum up of the plot before I take them down a totally wrong road without giving them the basics.
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B
Well, you should know a little bit about the plot to get a better sense of our conversation with Adam. Parent and child relationships have always been, I think, a rich source for novelists and therapists. And therapists, for sure. But Adam's plot involves estrangement between a series of mothers and sons. The principal protagonist in his book, Mother Anne, has just left Peter's father, who was dying at the time, and she's gone to live with another woman. And her son. Peter is also coming to realize that he is gay. And they grow apart, thinking that the other really won't understand or won't forgive, and they are ashamed. The same is true of a number of mothers and sons in this book. The characters are, to a large extent lonely. And as Hazlitt writes, loneliness can bring a measure of shame.
- [03:44]
A
Yeah, it's really. His mother, who is an Episcopal minister. Was an Episcopal minister, has, with her new partner, founded a women's retreat in nature where they talk to women about crises they have in their lives. And Peter, her son, who's struggling to come out of the closet, is an immigration lawyer. So in some ways, again, these two people who really struggle to see each other, to connect, they have so much in common. That's not to say they're the same person by any means, but they're both gay. They both use their profession to draw people's stories out so that they can be of help and counsel to those people. And there are lots of layers to this book, and not one of them is wasted. No, it is a wonderfully well written book that does a fantastic job exploring its themes.
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B
And there are a number of mother and son relationships in this that are similar to Anne and Peter's that have gone and that mothers and sons who have trouble hearing each other, they can listen to each other, but do they actually hear each other? And that's always an important distinction. No, it's a. It's a very, very well written book. It's a very interesting series of relationships that Adam explores in the book. So with all that as predicate, here is our conversation with Adam Haslett, the book Mothers and Son. Adam Haslett, it is good to have you in the bookcase. The book Mothers and Sons. And so many of the mothers and sons in your book grow apart based to a large extent on their sexuality. They go apart and they can't find a way to reconnect. So much of it, it seems, goes unsaid between mother and son. As you wrote. What do you think that says generally about mother and son relationships?
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C
Well, first of all, thank you for having me. It's really good to be talking to you both. I think there's something special about those father, daughter, mother, son, those sort of opposite. I'm speaking to a father and daughter relationships, and I think there's both a different kind of mystery and a different kind of comprehension. And so I think with mothers and sons, of which there are a number of pairs in this book, there's a kind of fealty that runs from a son wanting to protect his mother. And the other way around, I mean, of course, that's all parents, but in this case, I was exploring that between mothers and sons. And I think the things that get unsaid are the things that prevent that intimacy and that loving protectiveness from being able to be a help to people.
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B
Well, in this case, both mother and son feel that the other won't understand or forgive their sexuality. It is the basis of the novel. But why? How. How you wrote that and how you came to feel that.
- [06:42]
C
I think a lot of it has to do with shame. Right? Shame gets in the way in relationships. Something happens. And even with the best of intentions, it. If it goes, if it's swept under the rug or if it's awkward to talk about, it's one thing that. That happens at time one, but then if it just keeps not being spoken, then there's a kind of accretion over time and a hardening can set in. And so in this case, the main character, Peter, the immigration lawyer, grew up, came of age in the 1990s, the height of the AIDS epidemic. There was the general level of shame and fear around sexuality at the time was just a lot higher. And for his mother as well, and they're also a bit more of a formal family she's from. It's all set in New England. There's a little more kind of emotional reticence, I guess, on both sides. And I Think that played a part too.
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A
The mother, Anne, who now has this life partner, Claire. They've gone and they have found essentially a women's circle, a women's clutch in the wilderness where they have open discussions with other women about crises in their lives. And I have to say, when I got to that part, I thought to myself, uh, oh, there's gonna be a lot of sort of cliche feminism, you know, like, you know, we're passing the stick, all that kind of, you know. But it wasn't. It was very self aware, it was very thoughtful. I found those discussions fascinating.
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B
And also I would add to that, as I read it, I thought, you know, this is gonna be very hard for a male writer to write this very genuinely, to get the conversations between women about life and about working through problems, et cetera. I thought, that's going to be hard to write. And I thought you did it so well. Was it hard to write?
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C
Mm. Well, at the beginning, you see, I thought this was going to be a book entirely from Peter's point of view and that he was going to come up and visit and see his mother. And I tried writing some of those scenes. But as you can imagine, I quickly realized there was just way too much about Ann and her life. It just wouldn't be in the book if it didn't come from her. And in terms of writing that retreat, a good friend of mine's mother did found something similar to this. Most of it's invented, but there was an idea, there was a kernel of an idea that I had of a place that wasn't religious but wasn't entirely secular. Has a sort of spiritual sense to it. And to me, writing is always about creating a sense of intimacy between the reader and the character. I'm always interested in people's interior life. That's what I'm trying to capture. And the music in the writing is trying to capture some of what it might be like to be in that person's head or mind. So in a sense, this challenge was not. It was not dissimilar than going into any characters. I guess I approach it as we're all human beings. We all have an interest, hopefully, in other people. And I just don't make assumptions about how men or women view the world differently.
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A
You know, I'm fascinated by what you just said, that Ann's perspective wasn't originally a part of the writing. Can you talk to me a little bit about the process? I mean, did you write all of Peter and then put in Anne, or did you write Peter and go, uh, this isn't working. I've now hit a major speed bump. I need to go backwards. How did that work and how did you go about it?
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B
And I think it necessary to add, for those who are listening, that you write chapters as you go through from differing perspectives, from Peter's perspective and Anne's perspective, that they are estranged for the first 90% of the novel. And then. And then I don't think I'm giving anything away, they come together to try to work this through.
- [10:35]
A
One of the things I love most about the book also is each chapter, it doesn't say Anne, but the voice is very clear from the first two sentences. I know who's talking. I know where they are.
- [10:45]
C
Well, thank you. That's a compliment that I will take. But the writing of it was Peter is written in the first person present tense voice. And for someone who's writing narrative fiction, that's actually a bit of a constraint because you can't move freely and easily in time. And everything has got to be really, as it says, from that person's point of view. But for me, Peter himself is kind of trapped in an eternal present, right? He's trying not to remember things, and he's burying himself in work and he's hyper vigilant about his clients. So the first person in the present tense made all the sense in the world to me as his point of view when I eventually thought, okay, I need Anne's full perspective here to tell this story, which was probably. It wasn't. It was probably only about a third of the way into the writing of it that I realized that she is someone who's much more settled, much more grounded, has this sort of narrative perspective. And in fact, her job there at the retreat center is to hear people's stories, somewhat like her son, but in a very different context. And so for her past tense third person, with that kind of control and calm, that was the voice that or the point of view that made most sense to write Anne.
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B
Yeah, it is interesting that Peter's in the first person and Ann is in the third person. And you see her from a more distant perspective. But all the way through, I'm thinking about the fact that they're both doing such similar work. He's a lawyer who is debriefing people who are requesting asylum, and he's getting them to tell their stories. She has this retreat bringing in women and getting them to tell their stories. Was that parallel construction of these two estranged people evident to you from the time you started?
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C
I Think it only became evident, the full parallel only became evident over time because the further I got into writing Peter and the asylum story with his clients, I mean, I knew this in advance because a lot of my friends are immigration lawyers or a number of my friends are immigration lawyers, but is just how much that job is about getting stories from people and having to then craft them into this very particular form of legal argument. And I think I also had an intuition early on that while they are estranged, as you say, their work is quite parallel. And so, in a sense, it's almost like Peter's fealty to his mother is that they're doing similar work. They have, in some ways, similar instincts, which is to go into other people's problems and in a way look away from their own, which I think is a standing issue for many people in the quote, unquote, helping profession.
- [13:47]
A
You just used a phrase that I had to write down. The music in the writing. Okay, so how do you test the music and the writing and know that it's working? Are you a read alouder? Do you read aloud to somebody? Do you have a reader? Do you read in your car at night, your process there?
- [14:03]
C
So I do read things aloud often. I think the real answer is that most of the day when I'm at the desk writing, even if it's just sotto voce, I am saying the words to myself and hearing it. And the task each day, because I begin by editing what I wrote the day before, really the main. One of the main tasks is, well, this sentence has to be in some rhythmic relationship to the sentence that came before. Right? It's got to be. I think of it as a kind of musical argument. So on the one hand, you want there to be, you know, there's the plot, the characters, the content, kind of the news of the piece. But all sentences in fiction, I think, should be doing more than one thing. And so hopefully it's also telling you something about the way that the person thinks. So, so Peter's. The courtroom scenes, you know, it's all very clipped, short sentences, rapid fire. And that's telling you something about the mind and how you operate there. And Ann, with her descriptions of nature that are more longer and more sort of plangent, that gives you some sense of hopefully of her interior life.
- [15:16]
B
So we'll take a break, come back with some more of our conversation with Adam Haslett. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he.
- [15:34]
A
Loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who.
- [15:44]
C
Do get a $100 credit on your next ad campaign.
- [15:47]
A
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- [16:01]
C
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C
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A
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C
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A
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C
The Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose.
- [16:23]
A
Treat, cure or prevent any disease.
- [16:27]
C
Um, I think I just won my taxes. Yeah, I just switched to HR Block in about one minute. All I had to do was drag and drop last year's return into H.
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A
And R block and bam.
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C
My information is automatically there so I.
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A
Don'T have to go digging around for all my old papers to switch.
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C
Nope.
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A
Sounds like we just leveled up our tax game. Switching to H and R block is easy. Just drag and drop your last return.
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C
It's better with block.
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B
The sentence that struck me most in the book, one sentence. Peter struggles with the fact that he is homosexual. At the beginning, he comes to accept it more. But it does lead to this estrangement with his mother. As we said, his thinking that maybe she wouldn't be able to understand or forgive or even know what he is. The sentence that struck me was how full of shame it is to be lonely. He is lonely. I think his sexuality leads to him being lonely. That sentence, I think, really sums up so much of the book. Fair interpretation.
- [17:32]
C
Well, I'm glad you picked the line out. It's a very meaningful line to me. I think that in large measure, you're right. He has experienced loneliness because of the alienation that has gone along with not just growing up in a homophobic society, but because of the things that happened in his youth which, you know, come out in the book. But it also, you know, I think it has a ring to me. One of the books that I had in mind when I was first writing this was Elizabeth Strout's book. My name is Lucy Bartle.
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B
Oh, yeah, sure.
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C
It's a lovely book also about an estranged Mother, actually. But there's a loneliness at the heart of that book that resonated with me. And I've talked to her about it, actually, because I think that. I mean, more people today in America live on their own than ever before. There's more social isolation than there ever has been before. And I think that shame is an unspoken aspect of being on one's own. I mean, there can be many wonderful things about it. I'm not. It's. It's not a. You know, it's not a condemnation of single life at all, but it's just whether it's living on their own because they're older or living on their own because of geography, whatever. It is just the shape the society has taken has led to more and more isolation, which, to be honest, I think also contributes to our politics. Isolation. So, yes, and I think the way when I wrote my last book, which was more autobiographical and had a lot to do with my family, I thought, God, who's going to be interested in this? But the more particular you are, the more. The more granular you are. I find it's like the closer to something universal you get to. It's sort of a. It's a strange contradiction, right? If you try to be universal, then it doesn't reflect any experience. But if you dial down into one experience with sufficient detail, then people see things in it. So for me, Peter's. Peter's loneliness is central and I don't know, perhaps may have resonance for other people.
- [19:53]
A
My father's already played a round of my favorite game, which is sentences that we liked. So I am going to go. I always am paying attention to when I think a writer is writing about writing a lot of writing in there. But on page 299, you say shaping narratives, presenting events in a particular order is what I've spent my adult life doing, whittling stories down into the patterns that the law can see. How much of that is what you do? And were you writing from Adam's perspective or from Peter's?
- [20:18]
C
That's a good question. Inevitably, there's some. You are picking up on a sense of what a writer has to do, which is you take elements of a person and distill them into a character. I think that drama. That's what drama often is, right? It's. We have words on a page. It's an illusion that there's a human being there. I'm trying to create that illusion. So hopefully when I'm whittling, I'm not whittling down as narrowly and the purposes of the law has, or the needs the law has for a particular kind of story can be more, you know, a novel is a more capacious form. But yes, you're editing and I, I think this is maybe a broader point, but to me, one of the purposes of fiction as a reader and then hopefully as a writer is to slow people down a little bit. Because that's the other thing about the culture that we're living in, right, Is that it's so sped up and we have such torrents of information and images coming at us that it's hard to contemplate things. And so fiction is a space where we actually stop. You know, it's hard to be on your device and reading a book at the same time turns out. So I think giving people that opportunity to be in that passage of experience that you've created is part of what I'm doing. But that does involve taking one strand of a person's experience and turning it into a story.
- [21:50]
B
One of the things that occurred to me was the title. When I pick up a book called Mothers and Sons, I think there's going to be a universality to the story of a relationship in, in the book. Now I know there's a famous Fathers and Sons and I don't know if you were looking for a parallel there, but this relationship is so particular, the relationship between Anne the mother and Peter the son. So why did you pick that title and why did you make them plural? Mothers and Sons? Were you looking for a theme that had universality or did you think this is going to be a very particular story?
- [22:28]
C
I mean, you're right and it's nice to hear the echo there. I was thinking of Fathers and Sons, which is like Ivan Taguernev novel, Russian 19th century book. And that book is about sort of the incomprehension between two generations. And it's also about, in the younger generation, a friendship between two young men. So those things were both there, those echoes were both there for me in the book. And in terms of it being the plural, I think any mother and son relationship contains within it some part of that universal relationship. Right? I mean, there is that, but then there are these echoes in the other relationships in the book. One of the main clients, he was helped out of the country by his mother in rather dramatic ways and feels a lot of guilt for having been the one who got out. In another case, another client has a Young, a 14 year old son who's really terrified that his mother is going to be deported. And so This, I guess I was showing, trying to show different facets. And in a way, I suppose it's also a story of a prodigal son in one just archetypal sense, which is that the relationship that is more strained is the one that can sometimes end up being more valued. So at one point, the sister in the book turns to her mother and says, you're always asking about my brother. But the funny thing is I'm the one that's here, you know? And so there's something about the. There's something about the estrangement which intensifies the relationship.
- [24:13]
B
Katie and I have been doing this for two and a half years now. And one of the things that has fascinated me is in talking to a writer. And I want to end with this. I'm always curious what that writer wants to be in the mind of the reader as that reader finishes the book and puts it down. What would you like your readers to be thinking as they finish Mothers and Sons?
- [24:37]
C
That is a tough question. It's a good one, but it's tough. It's so hard to summarize because in a sense, what I want them to feel is everything they've accumulated effect of the last 330 pages. But actually, I would say a kind of sober buoyancy. That's not a very good phrase. I want to get buoyancy in there, but I want to modify it with something, because it's not just buoyancy, but there is a sense in which things have resolved and something's been forgiven. And there is a lightness that comes with that. But the sober part is the time lost. It's a kind of guarded hope, I suppose.
- [25:25]
B
Katie always says that when we talk about the books that we're going to be considering for the podcast. She always says, I want to know if the writer nails the landing. And you have two characters here operating in parallel tracks but estranged from each other. But the way they come together, I hope I'm not giving anything away, is very satisfying to me. The reader. You nailed it.
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A
And you stuck the landing.
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B
You stuck the landing. Adam Haslett, it's a pleasure to talk to you and very much enjoyed Mothers and Sons.
- [25:57]
A
Yeah, thank you so much.
- [26:03]
B
Some rapid fire questions for Adam Haslett. Dickens or Shakespeare?
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C
Shakespeare.
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B
Why?
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C
The language, the tragedy, the beauty, the pathos.
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A
Do you have a favorite character in literature?
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C
Well, now that you've mentioned Shakespeare, King Lear is high on the list. I think probably King Lear and Ishmael in Moby Dick.
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B
Favorite book is a child.
- [26:30]
C
Favorite book is a Child. Well, I think it was the first time I came across, like, a novel that just electrified me was Go Tell it on the Mountain by James Baldwin. That's more adolescence than child.
- [26:42]
B
Which leads me to a question. Was there a moment, a single moment when you thought to yourself, it is so powerful to read literature like this. Can I be a novelist? Can I do that?
- [26:55]
C
I don't know that I could say the moment, but I can remember the feeling. And it was when my brother, my older brother, who's a great reader, would run into a room and say, you got to hear this sentence. You know, I was like five years younger. I didn't really know, but. But in that way that you just see someone doing something and they're excited about it and you. And so then I would listen to these sentences. I would listen to the enthusiasm he had for reading them. And he was a music critic. He ended up being a music critic. I mean, it was. All the sentences were exciting to him because of the rhythm as well. And I was dyslexic as a kid, and so I didn't read until later. And I think I learned phonetically. So I think it had to do with less can I write a book Than can I write a sentence like that?
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A
Most meaningful compliment you've ever received on.
- [27:47]
C
Your work from a teenager guy at a reading who thanked me for writing a short story that was about gay kids in high school. And he just said, thank you for reading, writing that story, and then walked out of the store. And it was like. It was. It just. He couldn't stay, but he just said it and then walked out. And I just felt. Took my breath away.
- [28:08]
B
Is there a novelist working today who intimidates you, that they're so good at what they do?
- [28:17]
C
I don't know if I'd use the word intimidation, but I am often jealous of the sentences of Paul Harding, who won the Pulitzer for a book called Tinkers a number of years ago. And then his most recent one, which was nominated for the Booker Prize, is this Other Eden, which is. It's just. His prose is out of this world.
- [28:41]
A
When you finish a book, when you type the words, the end, what's the first thing you do?
- [28:45]
C
Oh, collapse onto the floor. Thank myself. That it'll be several years before I have to do it again.
- [28:55]
A
Do you have a specific reader or type of reader in mind when you write?
- [29:00]
C
Someone who is open to being absorbed and wanting to dive into some world very different or similar to their own, but just that absorption? I try to write as I said earlier to create a kind of passage of experience for people. And so I'm trying to lure someone in and let them dwell there. And so, yeah, it's not a particular demographic or it's just. It's a reader. Someone in a room in quiet, reading a book.
- [29:33]
B
Well, it was a pleasure to dwell in the world of Anne and Peter and mothers and sons. Yes. Adam Haslett, thank you ever so much. Thank you so much.
- [29:42]
C
Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to talk.
- [29:49]
A
The great Adam Haslet. This was my first time reading Adam Haslett, and I'm gonna go read now. Imagine me gone. He has a book of short stories that I'm looking forward to read. I just thought he did such a beautiful. I myself, when I found out I was my oldest child. And so when I got pregnant with my second, I just assumed he would be a girl. But, you know, as you guys can tell from the pronoun, he wasn't. And it was terrifying. I didn't know. You know, when I was told I was having a boy, I thought, what do I know about raising a boy? I don't even understand the one I'm married to. I mean, it was a thing. So I remember having a conversation, a pep talk with my mom, and she said, oh, it's gonna be great. And I was like, how do you know that? And she said, because whenever the man can't take his wife or his partner to the Oscars, he takes his mom. NFL draft, first person, he thanks, Mom. NBA draft, same thing. Boys are big fans of their moms, if you're lucky enough to play it right. And it is. I didn't understand it until he came, but it is a unique relationship that I treasure in a way that I couldn't even believe. I was worried I wasn't really going to be able to see him. And yet somehow we've managed to carve out this incredible relationship in this book. I thought even though the main relationship were estranged, I still felt recognized as a mother to a son.
- [31:12]
B
Well, it amplifies the estrangement in this novel because mothers and sons have such a special relationship. You know, I think back on Richard Nixon when he resigned. My mother is a saint. Well, so many of us think that. I don't know if Jack has gotten to that point.
- [31:28]
A
I don't know. I gotta be honest. He's only six years old, my son. I don't think he would say yes.
- [31:34]
B
Anyway, when the relationship does go awry, as it does with Peter and Anne in this book, and others. It resonates so strongly. It's so sad. And as they struggle to come back together, you feel it. And Adam Haslett does a wonderful job of describing it.
- [31:48]
A
Yeah, he does. He does. We will remind you about the great folks who make this podcast possible. And then a coda from Adam Haslett.
- [31:57]
B
The Bookcase with Kate and Charlie is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. We want to thank our executive producers, Laura Mayer and Simone Swink. At Good Morning America, we want to make mention of Taylor Rhodes, Amanda McMaster, Sarah Russell and Matt Knox. And at ABC Audio, Josh Cohan, Asal isanipour and Namiya McLean. And we want to thank especially our engineer, Tom Butler.
- [32:20]
C
I think I'll just say that given the culture we live in, I hope everyone is able to take some time to themselves to listen to a book or a poem or another person in their life. Or to themselves.
- [32:39]
A
If you love your phone but not.
- [32:41]
C
Your carrier, just switch to T Mobile.
- [32:43]
A
You can keep your phone, keep your.
- [32:45]
B
Number and we'll help pay it off.
- [32:46]
C
Up to $800 per line.
- [32:48]
B
You can also use our savings calculator.
- [32:50]
C
To compare our plans and streaming benefits against Verizon and AT&T.
- [32:53]
A
So switch and keep your phone, keep your number and keep more of your moolah@t mobile.com up to four lines via.
- [33:00]
C
Virtual prepaid card allow 15 days qualifying unlock device credit service port in 90 plus days with device into eligible carrier and timely redemption. Required card has no cash access and expires in six months.