Angela Flournoy’s Friendship Circle

Summary

The Book Case – Angela Flournoy’s Friendship Circle

Podcast: The Book Case
Hosts: Charlie Gibson, Kate Gibson
Guest: Angela Flournoy
Date: October 9, 2025

---

Overview:

In this episode, Kate and Charlie Gibson engage acclaimed author Angela Flournoy in a thoughtful, vibrant conversation about her latest novel, The Wilderness, a sweeping exploration of female friendship, identity, and adulthood as experienced by four Black women over two transformative decades (2008–2028). This literary journey examines how friendships endure, evolve, and sustain us, pushing beyond traditional linear narratives to deliver a prismatic, emotionally authentic portrait of chosen family, growing up, and building supportive communities.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to “The Wilderness” and Its Structure

• Angela’s Elevator Pitch:
  • “My novel the Wilderness is about a group of friends. It follows them from their 20s into their 40s. And it’s really about what I consider a real coming of age coming into middle age. And this group of female friends live in Los Angeles and New York. It is set from 2008 to 2028, and it is about the last 20 years of American life, even though it projects a little bit into the future.” — Angela Flournoy [01:38]
• Nonlinear Narrative Approach:
  • Flournoy’s structure intentionally mimics how people recall relationships — non-chronological, reflective of memory and moments both big and small.
  • “The way that information was delivered, I always wanted it to not be chronological… I wrote the story around what turning points I thought would be, which would be really important to which characters.” — Angela Flournoy [05:40]
  • This format creates a “kaleidoscope” effect, offering snapshots into pivotal experiences rather than a traditional plot line.

2. Themes of Friendship and Growing Up

• The Glue of Friendship:
  • The book investigates what binds (and sometimes unbinds) close groups of friends as their lives diverge.
  • “When you start to get into decades with people, it’s sometimes hard to articulate… why do we choose our chosen family?…why do we keep these people in our lives?” — Angela Flournoy [06:35]
  • Friendships evolve with shifting alliances, proximity, life events, and individual needs.
• Endurance Over Time:
  • The four central women—each unique in personality and background—find their bonds tested by career changes, geographic moves, grief, love, and family.
  • “Some characters… have a desire for sisterhood… at some points in the novel, the glue is literally this one person… Other times, the glue is that they have learned something about each other.” — Angela Flournoy [07:02]

3. Character Development and Narrative Surprises

• Evolution of Characters:
  • Flournoy admits the characters “absolutely surprised me” in the writing process, making choices that challenged her initial intentions.
  • “You put characters in situations and… they make a choice, and then they have to live with it, and then they make another choice and people respond to it and so on… It wasn’t going to serve anyone but my own prejudices to still make her end up where I wanted her to end up.” — Angela Flournoy [10:39]
• Authenticity in Voice:
  • Despite distinct personalities, scenes of shared grief unify their voices, notably in a poetic section:
  • “There’s a moment where all of them are writing in grief… I can no longer tell their voices apart except for the poem. Do you enjoy writing poetry?” — Kate Gibson [13:02]
  • Flournoy felt “freeing” (if humbling) to put poetry in the mouths of her characters, acknowledging both the fun and the risk:
    • “Novels love to put their bad poems in a book and blame it on a character. Maybe I’m guilty of that. Maybe.” — Angela Flournoy [14:18]

4. Black Female Friendship & Community

• Unique Dynamics:
  • The novel centers exclusively on Black women’s friendships, delving into their intensity, mutual support, and accountability:
    • “It seems a lot of times the only people who really see us are each other, make our relationships very intense and also very, very supportive.” — Angela Flournoy [14:37]
  • Flournoy emphasizes these friendships are not just waiting rooms for romance, but sustaining communities in their own right:
    • “The romance, the will they or won’t they… is like, about these women. It’s not about their significant others.” — Angela Flournoy [16:52]
  • On female friendship in general:
    • “Women are encouraged to seek help from each other in a way that I think a lot of… boys and young men are not.” — Angela Flournoy [15:04]
• Cultural Support vs. Outsider Perception:
  • “There’s also a way that our friendships are seen as somehow like, trivial or as just kind of holding patterns until we can find a man… but they’re building a community for life so they can navigate life feeling like they have support.” — Angela Flournoy [16:52]

5. Navigating Adulthood: The Title “The Wilderness”

• On Why the Book is Titled “The Wilderness”:
  • The phrase refers to the “unknowable terrain” of adulthood, especially middle age, for which society provides few guideposts.
  • “Our culture has so many guideposts… when you’re leaving adolescence… but… how to enter middle age, contend with aging or dying parents… you have to just kind of hack your way through that sort of unnavigable terrain of adult life.” — Angela Flournoy [18:00]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Narrative Structure:

  • “If you were to ask two people what is the story of their relationship, it would not be a linear story… it is a kind of prismatic shape.” — Angela Flournoy [04:30]

• On Character Surprises:

  • “There has to be a way that the writing of it changes the author… when you read a good book, you can feel the author changing or stretching in some way through the writing of the book.” — Angela Flournoy [11:56]

• On Black Women’s Friendships:

  • “The only people who really see us are each other, make our relationships very intense and also very, very supportive, but also very… accountable.” — Angela Flournoy [14:37]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Angela’s Elevator Pitch for “The Wilderness” — [01:38]
• Discussion of Book Structure & Nonlinear Narrative — [04:30] to [06:20]
• Exploring the Nature of Friendship & Group Dynamics — [06:35] to [08:28]
• Why Some Friendships Endure — [08:28] to [09:27]
• Character Surprises, Evolution, and Authorial Change — [09:59] to [11:56]
• Distinct Voices and Writing Poetry for Characters — [12:59] to [14:12]
• Uniqueness of Black Female Friendships — [14:29] to [17:46]
• Reason Behind the Title “The Wilderness” — [17:50] to [19:01]
• Rapid Fire Q&A with Angela Flournoy — [20:53] to [24:02]
  • (LA vs. NYC, favorite books, misconceptions, novelmanship, what makes a book stick, advice to students)
• Bookstore Feature: Writer’s Block Bookstore, FL (with Lauren Zimmerman) — [24:21] to [29:51]
• Angela’s Closing Thought: Building Community Beyond Identity — [31:56]

---

Rapid Fire Q&A – Angela Flournoy Highlights

• LA or NYC? “New York.” [21:03]
• Favorite NY thing? “The subway, underground and wow.” [21:07]
• Misconception about New Yorkers: “We’re not mean, we’re kind. We’re not nice and kindness is more important.” [21:47]
• Lesser known book recommend: “Brownstones Brown Girls by Paule Marshall.” [21:59]
• Book student’s most often assigned: “Beloved, Toni Morrison.” [23:00]
• Rating books like movies? “They kind of do… But nobody is rating a movie saying did not finish really. But people will happily rate a novel they never finished, and that should not be allowed.” [23:07]
• Advice for students: “Read more and read more internationally.” [23:54]

---

Bookstore Spotlight: Writer’s Block Bookstore (FL) with Lauren Zimmerman

• Opened after inspiration from Ann Patchett’s talk: “From the time… I heard her interview until I went to that seminar, until I opened the store, it was less than four months.” — Lauren Zimmerman [24:54]
• Bookstore curates literary, “complicated” books, often hand-selling titles that aren’t pushed by big-box stores or Amazon.
• “We only pay attention to what other indie bookstores are reading… do it for the love of it.” — Lauren Zimmerman [28:45]

---

Angela Flournoy’s Final Reflection

“Americans need to get better at thinking of community outside of their identity group. So outside of your ethnic group or your church or your wherever your house of worship, Americans need to get better at thinking broader about community and figuring out who they can help.” — Angela Flournoy [31:56]

---

Overall Tone:
Warm, candid, and reflective; combines meaningful literary exploration with practical insights into friendship, writing, and building sustaining communities in literature and life.

---

For Further Reading

• The Wilderness by Angela Flournoy (National Book Award Longlist)
• Turner House by Angela Flournoy
• Brown Girl, Brownstones by Paule Marshall
• Beloved by Toni Morrison

---

Use this summary for a rich understanding of the episode’s central themes, author insights, and memorable moments—perfect whether you’re a dedicated listener or a new Book Case explorer.

Transcript

[A]

Experience a membership that backs what you're building with American Express Business Platinum. Enjoy complimentary access to the American Express Global Lounge Collection and a welcome offer of 200,000 points after you spend $20,000 on purchases on the card within your first three months of membership. American Express Business Platinum. There's nothing like it. Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] Business Platinum.

[B]

Hello Bookcasers and book nerds everywhere. It is a veritable nature flurry outside. I'm looking at leaves changing. Well, very slowly, but they're probably changing as we speak. You know, you only notice it from day to day, but anyway, I am the Kate of the Kate and Charlie, waving at you even though you can't see it.

[C]

You would depend on time lapse photography to see the leaves change. I'm in New England. They are a changin'. The times are a changin', as they say. And it's really beautiful up here. Y' all come up. Y' all come up from the south. This is the best time of year in the fall when the leaves change in New England. And it's football season as well. Which. Which warms my heart.

[B]

Nothing like the colors of the pigskin. You know, tag with the leaf. Peeping. Let's do pigskin peeping.

[C]

The book this week is the Wilderness by Angela Flournoy. It is a story of friendship, a friendship between four women. But rather than we babble on to give you the precis of the plot, we asked her to give us the short elevator pitch that you'd make to sell the book.

[D]

My novel the Wilderness is about a group of friends. It follows them from their 20s into their 40s. And it's really about what I consider a real coming of age coming into middle age. And this group of female friends live in Los Angeles and New York. It is set from 2008 to 2028, and it is about the last 20 years of American life, even though it projects a little bit into the future.

[B]

So that was Angela's pitch. I think we did that for selfish reasons. We just, we're not very good plot summarizers. And I think it annoys the two of us if we listen to the podcast and we're like, we're like, shut up. Let's get to the book. So we're gonna try that with a few authors moving forward to see if we can spare your eardrums. Our pr. This is a really wonderful book. It takes a glimpse into key moments in these women's lives. One is a great love affair with Somebody who works under her. One is one of the young women dealing with the loss of her grandfather. One of them deals with postpartum depression. They're just sort of really rich photographs into key moments in these women's lives and what draws them apart and what brings them together. You know, you can grow away from friends. Maybe you're getting divorced, maybe you have kids and the other friends don't have kids. Maybe, I don't know, maybe you join a hippie cult. There are lots of reasons that you can be brought closer and. Or grow apart from friends.

[C]

Well, in this day of great mobility, there's also geographic considerations. Good friends may move away and you lose touch with them. What does cement groups of people as friends, and what is it that perhaps causes them to grow apart? That's what she's exploring in this novel with these four people moving from their 20s to their 40s. And then it goes into the future, which is an interesting change in the novel at the end because she. Well, she has some things to say about where society is going. It's an interesting book. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I got to like all four of the friends. And that's interesting. You know, it's not easy for an author, it seems to me, to endear all four characters in that way equally.

[B]

To the reader and write in such distinct voices. And she really does that. She creates four very distinct women with four very distinct ways of looking at the world. So here it is, our conversation with the great Angela Flournoy. Angela Flournoy, it is such a pleasure to have you in the bookcase. This is the story of these friends as they go from 2008 to 2028. But where I wanted to start. I know it's a strange place to start, but even though that coming of age process is so important, this is not a story written in a linear fashion. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the structure of the book. And did you write it in linear fashion and then break it up like a kaleidoscope, or did you write it in the order in which it appears?

[D]

That's a very good question. So I really wanted to make the structure of the book mimic the way that people talk about their relationships and particularly a group of friends. My mother had the same friend, someone who I grew up calling an aunt for 51 years. And if you were to ask two people, it doesn't even have to be four. Like in this novel. If you were to ask two people what is the story of their relationship, it would not be A linear story, one person would begin at one point that they thought was, like, this really important turning point. And the other person might interject and be like, wait a minute. But before that, you know, we had this same class together. And what happens is that it is a kind of prismatic shape, like the storytelling related to this particular kind of relationship. And that's what I wanted to try to mimic in the way that the book is structured.

[B]

But did you write it like that, or did you write it in a linear order and then throw all the. Or move the pieces around? Like, I see this big whiteboard with yarn in your living room.

[D]

Like I was trying to catch a serial killer.

[C]

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

[D]

I wrote it pretty similarly to how it appears in the novel. So I had in my mind, like, an outline of the chronological shape. But the way that information was delivered, I always wanted it to not be chronological. So it's not like I wrote a chronological. And then I mixed things up. I wrote the story around what turning points I thought would be, which would be really important to which characters. So there was, of course, in the end, there was a little bit of sifting, shifting around, but for the most part, it was not written chronologically, even though I knew I wanted to begin in the past and go a little bit into the future.

[C]

It's about four very good friends, and as you mentioned, the friendships evolved over 20 years. But as I read it, I was thinking, what is the glue that holds them together and that makes them so loyal to one another?

[D]

I think that this also is something that's really. It's hard to. When you. When you start to get into decades with people, it's sometimes hard to articulate. That's one of the things that the book is kind of like meditating on, is why do we choose our chosen family? And how do we keep some of these people? Why do we keep these people in our lives? So it depends on the character. So some characters, like the first of the friend group that we meet, Desiree, and she has a desire for sisterhood that she pursues with these friends. And so at some points in the novel, the glue is literally this one person. She's kind of holding everyone together because she needs this. She needs this family because she does not have a biological family access. She doesn't have access to that family. But then other times, the glue is that they are. They've learned something about each other. That. The thing that I think is really cool about friends, friend groups, and what I tried to show in this book is the way that not everybody is the same level of close. Right. Or there's sort of. It shifts. Right. Alliance has kind of shifts over. Shift over the years. So in the beginning, it is very much like these are all the people that Desiree has sort of brought together, and they like each other fine enough. And then there are moments where two characters find themselves in one city, like in Los Angeles, Nikia and January, and they learn something about their own interest in family, but also their interests in self determination. There are ways over time that they find new ways of connecting with each other. Which I thought is one of the project projects of the book is to explore Floor. How do you. People who you've just sort of always been. They've been in your orbit. At certain points you have to make a choice, like, do I actually want to spend time with this person or not?

[C]

It's an interesting point because I want to ask about the fact that we do make very close friends in our 20s. And we have a feeling that these friends are going to be lifetime friends, particularly in college. We make those friends, but some of them dissipate. Some of the friendships go away. And some of those people that you couldn't necessarily predict would be close friends through life do become close friends through life. So why do you think that dichotomy exists?

[D]

I think it has to do with. There's something that is a little bit kind of mysterious and magical about it, like how some people end up closer to you. Sometimes it has to do with something as simple as they showed up for you in a way that you didn't expect in a moment when you really needed it. And so in that way, they kind of saw you or saw something in you that you then find to just be kind of a comfort. I think, especially as you get older. It's also just people who, like, don't make your life complicated, you know, but.

[B]

There'S negative space to these four women's lives as well as positive space. I think of them in some ways as brilliant short stories. I mean, there's a through line to all of them. Yes, but there are some that don't even like. The opening story that you mentioned with Desiree doesn't even really involve the friends. It does tangentially. Or Nokia's great love affair that is a glimpse into her life. So when you sat down to write this, did you have full biographies in mind for all four of the stories and you knew which turning points you wanted to hit, or did the characters surprise you as you wrote them?

[D]

The characters absolutely surprised me. I really do think that the way that I think about character and I think about narrative is that my sort of best laid plans are always going to be derailed in the writing. So, for instance, there's a character, Monique, who begins the book as a librarian and then has, like, a moment of virality that makes her want to have more moments of virality, and she decides that she kind of wants to pivot to being a kind of like social, socially conscious influencer. And I'll be honest that I don't know what is. Eight to ten years ago, when I started thinking about this character, I didn't think it would be like a didactic narrative, but I did think that her story would be one of learning that this kind of life isn't as good as being a librarian. You put characters in situations and characters sort of become real because they make a choice, and then they have to live with it, and then they make another choice and people respond to it and so on. And with that character, some of the things that I wanted her to experience by the end of the novel, in the course of creating her, actually through the Prosecutor, I realized not only was it not realistic for her and what she had experienced at that point, but it just. It wasn't going to serve anyone but my own prejudices to still make her end up where I wanted her to end up.

[C]

Each of the four are so very different. Different in their personalities, different in their professions, different in their sexuality. I'm curious to follow up on Kate's question how much you had written down a profile of each of the four. And then when you say characters surprise me. They're your creation, Angela. You're the one who does this. So you can't keep them consistent. To the. To the.

[B]

He's such a doubting Thomas. He's a doubting Thomas about this. With every author, he's like, I don't see how they can surprise you given the fact that they're in your head, right?

[D]

Well, they challenge. The thing is, if you're interested in writing novels, especially novels that people like to call character driven, there has to be a way that the writing of it changes the author. That is one of the things that. One of those things that makes a good book good. It's not just that there's a character change and it's not just the passage of time. But I really believe that when you read a good book, you can feel the author changing or stretching in some way through the writing of the book. I am the one, you know, I have the Puppet shrinks. I have put them in the position. But after I've done the work of building the scenes and having the emotional kind of reactions to whatever happens, I then can have my own mind changed about where that would put them on the other side. So it's not so much that they do something, you know, in work like in the. On the page, that I am surprised by, but my thinking about what it would mean. The things that happen to them can absolutely change.

[B]

It's interesting because I do think of them as four unique voices, very distinct voices. And yet there's a moment. Not to give anything away, but there's a moment where all of them are writing in grief, where all of the friends are writing in grief. And I can no longer tell their voices apart except for the poem. Do you enjoy writing poetry?

[D]

You know, it's funny. So I put these poems in this book I don't know how many years ago. And I always tried to figure out a way to take them back out exposed. And I just felt like this. This makes sense for this character. I don't know if I enjoy writing poetry because I think that the older. I mean, that sort of more that I've gotten exposed to poets especially sat in on lectures, et cetera. I feel a little bit intimidated by all that. I don't know about the sort of conventions and mechanics of poetry, but it was fun to write poems for this character.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

I was gonna ask you if that was freeing or did that feel constricting, writing a poetry as a character?

[D]

It was freeing. I actually saw someone on a. I saw some sort of, like, meme on the Internet talking about novels. Love to put their bad poems in a book and blame it on a character. Maybe I'm guilty of that. Maybe.

[C]

The four friends are all African American. Is there something unique about black female friendships?

[D]

I think that there's something unique about female friendships in general, which is the. I've been thinking a lot about this since the book came out. Women are encouraged to seek help from each other in a way that I think a lot of, like, boys and young men are not. And that is why they have a harder time building these lasting friendships. Sometimes they can kind of hack it with, like, you know, sports team or something like that, but just kind of organically building them. It seems like it's. It's harder than it is for women. And I think it might have to do with the fact that a lot of young men are raised to. You're supposed to be independent. You're supposed to be self. Self sufficient. Whereas women are not necessarily raised to think that to ask for help or to reach out to other people with some kind of weakness. And as far as for black women, I think it seems a lot of times the only people who really see us are each other, make our relationships very intense and also very, very supportive, but also very. We hold each other to a accountable in this way that I think is mostly positive. Mostly positive. But we really. I was talking last night with. With Issa Rae about this, about the ways that the. The friends that she. She had. She portrayed on insecure. They had real arguments where they really held each other accountable. And, you know, sometimes it seems like they're not gonna be able to survive these arguments or disagreements. And I think that that is one feature of black female friendship because of the sort of deep concern we have about if we don't sort of hold each other accountable and just make sure that we're okay. Holding accountable doesn't mean, you know, just saying, hey, you suck, but also, like, you seem like you're not doing well, but you're trying to hide it. But I see it, doing that kind of work and support is, I think, very important to us because, nah, the rest of the world doesn't necessarily get us at all. I think that there's also a way that our friendships are seen as somehow like, trivial or as just kind of holding patterns until we can find a man. And I really, in this, in the wilderness, I tried to be really intentional. I've had some readers say, well, the men in the book don't seem to be very positively portrayed. And I'm like, they're barely portrayed at all. This is a book. The romance, the will they or won't they, do they or don't they? Is like, about these women. It's not about their significant others. And I think that that's something that in general is. It seems unusual in our culture, this idea that they're not just building a community until they can all get married and have little nuclear families, but they're building a community for life so that they can navigate life feeling like they have support. Whether or not these romantic relationships work out.

[C]

Just a final question for me, why the title? Why the Wilderness?

[D]

So there is a moment in the novel towards the end where the character Danielle explicitly thinks about adult life as a kind of wilderness that you have to navigate on your own. And her thinking is she's having a hard time. So it's a little bit negative. But broadly, I just was thinking about the ways that our culture has so many guideposts or paths you could take. Or when you're leaving adolescence, going into young adulthood, right, like how to get out of your parents house. There are some options but when it's how to inter middle age, how to contend with aging or dying parents, how to contend with being a parent, how to contend with you need to make a mid career switch or you have enough money but you still don't feel satisfied. How to feel like a fully sort of grounded in yourself adult adult. You have to just kind of hack your way through that sort of unnavigable terrain of adult life to get to that feeling yourself.

[C]

Angela Flournoy, thank you very much for taking the time.

[D]

Thank you.

[C]

It's a real pleasure to talk to you. At this point, we asked Angela Flournoy to stand by for some rapid fire questions.

[F]

Learning through play starts with Lego Duplo. With Lego Duplo, toddlers can develop real life skills while having fun with colorful bricks made just for them. Large, easy to grip and safe to explore. When children express themselves with Lego Duplo, they build patience, problem solving and empathy. See your child learn perseverance and self expression with everything they imagine and create. Visit lego.com preschool to learn more.

[G]

By the time I hit my 50s, I'd learned a few things like how family is precious, work can always wait, and 99% of people over 50 already have the virus that causes shingles. Not everyone at risk will develop it, but I did. The painful blistering rash disrupted my life for weeks. Don't learn about your shingles. Risk the hard way. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist today.

[H]

Sponsored by gsk, Bombas makes the most comfortable socks, underwear and T shirts.

[D]

Warning.

[B]

Bombus are so absurdly comfortable you may throw out all your other clothes. Sorry, do we legally have to say that?

[C]

No, this is just how I talk.

[B]

And I really love my Bombas.

[H]

They do feel that good. And they do good too. One item purchased equals one item donated. To feel good and do good, go to bombas.com and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M b-s.com and use code audio at checkout.

[C]

Some rapid fire questions for Angela Flournoy. If you had to pick, I know you've lived in both. If you had to pick LA or New York City.

[D]

New York.

[C]

What's your favorite part of New York City?

[D]

The subway, underground and wow.

[C]

I'm not sure many people would cite that.

[E]

Your favorite part of la?

[D]

The beach.

[C]

Biggest misconception about la, that people are fake.

[D]

People are not fake in la. People in LA are genuinely just very relaxed, even when they're not. They endeavor to. And sometimes they take substances to assist with it.

[C]

Biggest misconception about New York City.

[D]

Oh, you know, the famous one is that we're mean, but we are kind. We're not nice and kindness is more important.

[B]

Lesser known book you recommend to everyone?

[D]

Lesser known book I recommend is Brownstones Brown Girls by Paul Marshall. Okay. Which is a novel set in Bed Stuy and goes from the 20s into the 50s. But she. I think it was published in 1957 and it's just a beautiful. What do they call it? A Kunstler Roman. So like a coming of age as an artist as well as a story about immigrants from Barbados in Brooklyn during that time period.

[C]

In your mind, a quality for a novel, is it character? Is it plot, is it dialogue, is it point of view, is it setting?

[D]

What it is Skin in the Game, you have to feel like something real is happening. It cannot just be ideas that don't make you feel something like on a kind of elemental level. So I would say it is Skin.

[B]

In the Game book that makes it more often than not on your syllabus.

[D]

Beloved Toni Morrison.

[C]

Should books, like movies, have ratings?

[D]

I feel like they kind of do. They do Goodreads, et cetera. Yeah. But I. I think I would trust them less because there's always. Nobody is rating a movie saying did not finish really. But people will happily rate a novel that they never finished and that should not be allowed. I don't finish novels, but I would never. I would never dream of going somewhere and reading a novel I didn't finish.

[C]

How many pages will you give a novel that you know you're not liking?

[D]

Probably about 100.

[B]

We once had somebody tell us that you need to give a novel you're not liking 100 pages, minus your age.

[D]

So I like.

[B]

I like that piece of advice you most commonly give your students to read.

[D]

More and to read more internationally.

[C]

Angela Flournoy. This book is listed, long list, I guess, among the nominees for the National Book Award, and I'm certainly glad to see it included.

[B]

It is nominated. She was nominated previously on the list, the National Book Award for Turner House. So obviously Angela Flournoy, you know, has got some game.

[C]

She does indeed. We have a bookstore for you this week, actually two of them down in Florida. Writer's Block Bookstore is the name of the two bookstores, one in Winter Garden and one in Winter Park, Florida. And the proprietress the owner of both of them is Lauren Zimmerman. Lauren Zimmerman, it is good to have you with us. We talked to a lot of bookstore owners, and you sort of fall into the my community needed me school of thought. Tell me about how this came about.

[E]

This is the funny story. I listened to Ann Patchett talk about her store, and she mentioned that she couldn't live in a city that didn't have an indie bookstore. So I'm listening to this and I'm thinking to myself, okay, what's going on? When I called up my husband and I said, I think I want to open up a bookstore, and he goes, okay. And that was his first mistake. And I'm bookstore Taurus and also a risk taker, I assume. And I thought about it and I found out about a class that where they teach you how to open up a bookstore. It was right here in Florida. I went the next week. It's really funny from. From the time that I heard her interview until I went to that seminar, until I opened the store, it was less than four months. I knew I had to be in Winter park because that's where I'm from and that that's an affluent community and walkable and all the things you need for bookstores. And so I started looking for space here, and that was where the Red Sea parted. You know, I found a space and community loved me. And then we ended up buying a building on the avenue.

[B]

When you opened your space, how did you know to curate for your community? What was your initial purchasing like? And how did you winnow and grow your collection after you opened?

[E]

Right now, we're actually merchandising for fourth quarter. You know, I don't know if anybody's told you this, but in communities like this, where it's a walkable shopping area, that close to 75% of your income takes place during fourth quarter. So you. It's like, you gotta behave like squirrels. You gotta, like, sell as much as you can and then hide them in a tree somewhere. And so that. Because our summers are very slow because Florida's hot and people try to get out of the state rather than stay in the states, what books you're excited.

[B]

About to sell people in the fourth quarter.

[E]

Okay, so what's exciting is, is that the publishers had to change as well. You probably learned that through talking to people. That publishing industry is really changing. They're having difficulties with production and distribution and all that kind of stuff.

[C]

So.

[E]

And that was a big problem during COVID and a couple years later. And I think this is the first year, honestly. And what I'm seeing in the gift buying and the book buying, I actually believe that the first year that we're seeing some really quality stuff coming out.

[B]

What was your favorite book of the summer?

[E]

I'm reading it right now. Workhorse. It's coming out in two weeks. I'm losing my mind over it. It's Devil Wear, Prada meets Andy decides to become Priestly, you know, instead of, like, revolting against Priestly. And it's. What really is fascinating to me is that it's a debut Authority. However, what's fascinating, and this is. This leads me to my comment a second ago, is that they, the publisher, invested in printing a lot of copies, which is unusual. When I saw the print run, I went, what is going on? This is a debut author. What's going on? And so I had to read it, right? And it's very good, and I think that I'm very excited about it. So since the publisher, since my wonderful, wonderful friends in publishing has spent so much money printing 200 copies of this debut author, I want to give her a plug. It's called Workhorse. The last one that I got excited about was Kelly Reed. And we know what happened to her. She went through the roof. It's the same thing. I saw it, I'm looking at it, and I'm thinking, oh, my God, this is Kelly Reid all over again. So I'd like to give a plug. I think I'm right. The book is good.

[C]

You say, you know, the community. So what kind of a feel do you want people to have when they come into the bookstore? You want to create a mood. What's that mood you're looking for?

[E]

Literary period. End of discussion. They come in and they see the newest releases, they see translations, they see complicated books, they see nonfiction, they see history. My goal, indie bookstore's goals in general, from what I. I think that I can speak for the community, is that we present different books than the big boxes and Amazon. When people walk in the store, they immediately see we're different. They immediately see that the books they see are not. They don't. They are not readily in front of them at Barnes and Noble. I mean, they're probably in Barnes and Noble somewhere. But the books that we showcase are ones that we read, the ones that we. We get a lot of. The indie community sends, you know, lets everybody know what they're madly in love with. So we push what everybody is loving. And we don't pay attention to the New York Times or to Big Box or Anything like that. We only pay attention to what other indie bookstores are reading because there are people like me who, you know, do it for the love of it. And notice a book that's got a huge print run of a debut author.

[C]

Lauren Zimmerman, the owner of the Writer's Block in Winter Park, Florida, and also in Winter Garden. You can find it on Park Avenue in Winter park and on Plant street in Winter Garden. And she is the first person to join us from the street on which her store exists. Outside a bar.

[B]

Who's to say the booksellers aren't having a good time? I love the idea that, you know, she's just kicking back at lunch and giving us a call and fitting in an interview.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

More power to her. I think that's great.

[C]

Putting the microphone on the table just outside the local bar, right down the street from the Writer's Block Bookshop. It's really interesting what she said. She called up her husband and said, I'm thinking of opening a bookstore. What do you think? And he says, okay, I don't know many men like that who are that understanding, who were that adventuresome and who are that willing to roll the dice. I don't know him, but I like him.

[B]

Well, I don't even think we have to put a masculine limitation on that. Like, I don't know many married couples, you know, I mean, it's a little bit feel to dreamsy, isn't it? I mean, it's a little bit like the wife calling her husband and saying, look, I'm gonna plow over the coin so we can build a ball field and we'll see if the imaginary ball players come to play. I mean, it's a huge leap of faith, and I don't know that many married couples that wouldn't go, really, really.

[D]

Okay. I know.

[B]

So good for her and good for him.

[C]

Kate, if I call you up and say I'm thinking of opening a bookstore called Turn the Page, what are you gonna do?

[B]

I'm gonna say, call Mom.

[C]

We'll bring you up to date on who makes this podcast possible. And then we've got a coda from Angela Flournoy. See you next week.

[B]

The book Case with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg, Arielle Chester at Good Morning America, and Josh Cohan from ABC Audio. Follow the bookcase wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure to listen, rate and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have them linked in the episode.

[D]

Description Americans need to get better at thinking of community outside of their identity group. So outside of your ethnic group or your church or your wherever your house of worship, Americans need to get better at thinking broader about community and figuring out who they can help.

[H]

From your fryer to the table It's a quick trip for crispy fries, but how about a crosstown delivery? McCain sure. Crisp fries are designed to go from fryer to container to carrier to passenger seat across town during rush hour down a shortcut that wasn't all that short to a doorstep before they hit the table. And that first bite, the crispiness speaks for itself. To the last bite. McCain sure. Crisp fries go the distance. See how far our fries can take your [e-mail] delivery.