Charlie Gibson (3:10)

If you haven't gone back and listened to last week's show, please do so right now. You're excused. You can go and do it. But Ann, in that discussion that we had in the first part of our interview with her, conversation with her, says, I think I got the macro parts of the book right. The micro parts, not so much. Well, here she explains it.

Ann Patchett (3:33)

I did very well on the macro and very poorly on the micro, if you were scoring the test. So the structure of the book, the idea, the concept of the novel is really fantastic. It's a big overarching plot. It's a whole lot of people. What I do with point of view is excellent. I found it so emotionally wrenching. It is tender, without any irony, no guile. It's loving, it's gentle, and then it's horrifying. And that's what makes the ending so hard. So that, good job, me, well done. But then the little things. The writing is actually really bad, and I think there are seven commas in the entire book. Was I traumatized by a comma in my 30s? And I just said, no, I'm not doing it. There are no semicolons. Obviously the EM Dash hadn't been invented back in 2001, but anytime I could say something once I said it three times.

Charlie Gibson (4:57)

That a little bit of a clip from the first show, and it gives you some sense of her approach. But I think in this second part and in our rapid fire questions with Anne, you also get a further sense of what she was trying to do.

Kate (5:09)

I think what's amazing about this too is you talk to Anne, and Anne is obviously a terrific writer. She's written, you know, amazing book after amazing book, and you get the sense when you talk to her, and certainly when you read the annotated Bel canto, you get a sense that she gets equal joy from writing, but also from reading. She is an avid reader and she took pleasure. I Think in this exercise as both a reader and a writer. And I love that that she nerds out about other books and other writers as much as she nerds out on her own writing process. I think that's a rare quality, and I think it harkens back to the fact that writers should be really avid readers. They're joining a very lively conversation that has existed long before them. And you should be educated on how to join the conversation. And, boy, is Ann Patchett a living, walking example of that.

Charlie Gibson (6:05)

Well, in the micro parts that she doesn't feel she got very right, she mentions there's only what, like, six or seven commas in the whole book. So much for. So much for punctuation. She also pveches to herself about the fact that she overused metaphors, that she overused adverbs. She's very concerned about her adverbs. And Katie asked her an interesting question, which you'll hear in the second part. Did your editor go back and want to edit your annotations? Which is an interesting question about the role of the editor in this. She calls it abc, the Annotated Bel Canto. And here's the second part of our conversation with Ann Patchett. I'm fascinated by this, and I'm fascinated by the very process of what you did, because I don't know of any other contemporary author who has had the guts to go back and critique their own novel. Some novelists I know have written something in the frontispiece of their books, et cetera, about what they were trying to do, but nobody has gone over it as minutely as you have. And you make reference at one point to teaching creative writing. Wouldn't you have loved to have something like this to work with as you taught? In other words, my feeling is it should be in every creative writing class in America.

Ann Patchett (7:28)

Well, thank you. Let's hope they listen to you.

Ann Patchett (7:32)

Yeah.

Ann Patchett (7:33)

And part of it is when you are in an MFA program studying fiction, you are really learning how to write short stories. And that's because your writing teacher, with 12 people or 14 people in the workshop, that you just can't read novels that way. You can't workshop a novel and critique a novel. It's too much. And so everybody works on short stories. I feel like this is very much about how to write a novel and also how to read a novel. Like, be a critical and thoughtful reader and say, oh, that works. Oh, that's amazing. How did she do that? Or, God, that's terrible. Why did she do that? But be involved in the Text. And I don't think that there is another book like this. Annotation is something that scholars do to the work of people who are dead. But to. To be alive and to annotate your own work and also to do it in my handwriting. That was really funny when I was first bringing all of this to my editor. And I was like, I got a plan. I got this vision, you know, and he said, well, you know, it'll be typed in the margins. And I said, no, it'll be my handwriting. I went to Catholic school for 12 years. I have very nice handwriting. And. And that is part of it, too, because I think that the penmanship makes it very personal.

Kate (9:00)

Did your editor edit the notes? Like, did they get a draft of the notes? Or was this just like, you're gonna take it as I hand it to you?

Ann Patchett (9:07)

You know, there were times that he said, you need some more here. Which really was like, if three or four pages had gone by and I hadn't written anything, he was like, come up with something. This is too much quiet. And then he said things like, oh, you've said that you were an idiot enough. Let's take this one out. So that was the kind of editing that he did. And I'll tell you something really interesting about this process. So I'm writing by hand, and I'm doing it over and over again. I got notes from some of my friends what they found interesting, what they wanted more of. I keep redoing it.

Kate (9:55)

Oh, this is such a nerdy process. I love, too. I love when I'm reading the introduction that you're like, I really like this annotated version of Tom Lake. So instead of break the spine, I got a whole nother copy and wrote out all my notes a second time. Nerd. Nerd. Nerd. I mean, wonderful nerd, but nerd.

Charlie Gibson (10:12)

Ann Patchett, it is a great, great pleasure to talk to you and so much fun. We're going to ask you to pause for just a second. We've got a few rapid fire questions for you, and then we'll ask you for a coda at the end, and then we'll let you go. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Ann Patchett (10:25)

You guys are so great. I really appreciate you doing this. And again, so soon after you have seen me so recently.

Kate (10:31)

Yeah, this is awesome. This was awesome.

Charlie Gibson (10:37)

Some rapid fire questions for Ann Patchett. What are you reading right now, Ann?

Ann Patchett (10:41)

You would think that I would be able to answer that rapid fire question rapidly. I am reading. Hang on, guys. I'm sorry. Okay, I Am reading Elizabeth Strout's Abide with Me, which is the one Liz Strout book I've never read. And I am listening to Cold Comfort Farm by Stella Gibbons, which I read in college. And Pearl Mackey does the audio and it's astonishing. And can I just say, listen to the audio of Brideshead Revisited done by Jeremy Irons, which I just finished. Most astonishing pleasure of my listening reading life.

Charlie Gibson (11:22)

You own a bookstore. Do you read books as they come out with an eye to how they'll do in the bookstore? Do you read books before they're published? What, what, what is your taste as you approach reading?

Ann Patchett (11:36)

All I do is read books before they are published. And when you asked me what I was reading, of course I'm not going to tell you what I'm reading because you're not going to be able to read it for another six months. What I'm reading Leila Leilmi's the Dream Hotel. That's no use to you. All I read are galleys.

Kate (11:57)

Ann Patchett book that you would tell somebody who's never read an Ann Patchett book to start with.

Ann Patchett (12:04)

If it was nonfiction, I would say, these precious days. If it was somebody who was going to read one Ann Patchett book in their life, I would say Commonwealth.

Charlie Gibson (12:15)

Really?

Ann Patchett (12:16)

That's the book that I like the best.

Charlie Gibson (12:18)

Authors will always say it's like trying to decide what's my favorite child. But you do say right at the beginning in your introduction, bel Canto is not my best book.

Ann Patchett (12:27)

No.

Charlie Gibson (12:28)

You think Commonwealth is.

Ann Patchett (12:29)

It's the book that I like the best because it is the book. It's a book about my family. It is a book that I could have written for the rest of my life. That book could be 3,000 pages long. I could have been kniska on that book. It was such a pleasure for me to go back and write that book.

Kate (12:51)

How many languages do you speak?

Ann Patchett (12:52)

1. How about you?

Kate (12:54)

1. Every time I heard you talk about Gyan and his superpower of many languages, I was like, there goes.

Ann Patchett (12:59)

That's what I wish I could do. Yeah, play the piano and speak many languages.

Charlie Gibson (13:05)

And I only speak one. And as many viewers of Good Morning America would remind me, I don't do it very well.

Kate (13:13)

If you got to have 30 seconds with the 36 year old Ann Patchett who's writing this book, what would you tell them?

Ann Patchett (13:19)

Read out loud. Read out loud. Which I do all the time now. Every sentence, over and over. I don't care how boring it is. You will Catch your mistakes if you hear them, not if you see them.

Kate (13:37)

The last one I have for you is how do you celebrate finishing a book when you're done? And did you do the same thing with this one?

Ann Patchett (13:43)

Well, the thing is, there is no done. Done doesn't exist. I mean, there's the moment that you write the last sentence, but then you're going to go back and work on it. You're going to send it to people, they're going to give you notes, you're going to work on it. Some more going to come out, you're going to start doing publicity, you're going to go on book tour. So what day are you done? I just try to celebrate every single day.

Charlie Gibson (14:08)

Love it I that your list of all stars that you would like to have annotate their books will follow suit and do what you have done because I think it is a wonderful, a wonderful learning lesson for not only readers but for other writers. And plus which, any project that is labeled abc, given where I worked for my life, I'm, I'm all for. And Patchett, thank you.

Kate (14:33)

Yeah, thank you so much. What a great conversation.

Ann Patchett (14:36)

And it was just wonderful, wonderful to see you.

Charlie Gibson (14:38)

So, Anne, thank you very much. As, as I think people who listen to this podcast know and as you mentioned, you're the owner of the Parnassus Bookstore. So we're going to take a break and when we come back, we're going to talk to the manager of your store, Kat Bach, her name is. And Kat. Well, Kat had an interesting way of reading this book because she both she's reading her boss's book, she's reading her boss's annotations and she's thinking, how am I going to sell this book? All of which is an interesting combination. We'll be back in a minute talking to Catbok.

Kate (15:18)

Oh, such a clutch off season pickup. Dave.

Ann Patchett (15:21)

I was worried we'd bring back the same team. I meant those Blackout motorized shades. Blinds.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install? No, it's easy. I installed these and then got some for my mom. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install hall of Fame son. They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings in the world.

Ann Patchett (15:40)

Blinds.com is shoplines.com right now and get up to 40% off select styles plus.

Ann Patchett (15:45)

A free professional measure.

Ann Patchett (15:47)

Rules and restrictions may apply.

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Kate (16:53)

Welcome back to the Bookcase. If you are a regular listener to this show, you know we often end the show by talking to an independent bookstore. It is so nice when our author also owns an independent bookstore, although I'm not sure that Ann Patchett would recomm that for sane authors out there everywhere. But Parnassus has become an institution, a shining star in the independent book world. So we thought it was only appropriate to talk to Kat Bok, her manager at Parnassus, for this second episode of the annotated Bel Canto and Patchett Extravaganza. So here it is, our conversation with Kat Bach.

Charlie Gibson (17:30)

So, Kathy, the annotated edition of Bel Canto, or as Ann told us, as you call it in the store abc. But I suspect it's really a unique experience for you as a reader because you read this through so many different prisms as an employee of Ann Patchett, as the manager of her bookstore. How did you read it and how are you telling your customers to read it?

Ann Patchett (17:54)

I think that there are kind of two ways that you can read it. There's the way that she wrote it, which is as a writer. And there's the way that those of us who are not writers, which I'm not a writer. I don't want to be. I like being a bookstore manager. I like being a reader. I think there's, it's, it's a masterclass in writing, but also in reading. It's a way that I never would have taken a look at the book that way. I enjoyed it the first time I read it and it was a fascinating way to Kind of remove yourself from it and kind of take this. This look at the structure of it outside of just the pleasure of the reading experience is, how are you. How can you be a more critical reader and still enjoy what you're reading, still love the story itself, but how can you take a more critical lens to it?

Kate (18:35)

So when we talked to her, Anne said that when she reread Bel Canto, she felt like she succeeded as a writer on a macro level, but failed on a micro level when you reread it. Do you think she's being too hard on herself?

Ann Patchett (18:51)

I couldn't presume to say if she was too hard on herself or not. I think that she used this as an exercise to learn about her own craft, which is, you know, at. At the. Speaking of micro and macro, at the macro level of just the craft of writing and also the micro of her own craft, how she's evolved as a writer. I'm. I'm someone who is also very hard on herself. And I think that that can be really constructive. But I think that the way that she balanced it with being complimentary, I think that that shows that she's. She's taking it all in stride, and she's using the learning moments that she can, but also still recognizing the really good stuff. And I think she. I think she was spot on with all of it.

Kate (19:28)

We found ourselves, as we read it, analyzing her notes of analysis. I mean, we found her notes as much of a page turner as the novel itself. And so here we are having a lively discussion, not about the novel, but whether or not she was too hard on herself in her own notes.

Ann Patchett (19:45)

Yeah, I think that's the sign of, like, what makes a book good for discussion in, like, a book club. You don't want to just sit around and be like, we all loved it. There was nothing to critique. It was great. And then everyone just sits in silence for the next 45 minutes. You want to be able to have stuff to talk about.

Charlie Gibson (19:59)

So Anne mentioned there weren't many books to be released on the Tuesday of election day. Only she would be crazy enough to release one. So did you guys at Parnassus have a big ABC annotated Bel Canto release party?

Ann Patchett (20:12)

Yeah, it was kind of a bit of a homecoming event. You know, she launched the book here and has done all of her book launches here. But, well, not launched the book at Parnassus, because Parnassus did not exist at that point in time. But in Nashville. Yeah, I think that it was. It was really special. We got to be the only event that she's doing for the book, she's not going on the road for it at all. But, yeah, people are incredibly enthusiastic and excited and got to reconnect with it. And, you know, she talks a lot about how people come up to her all the time and say that it's their favorite book, it changed their lives, and what a meaningful experience that is. And to get to revisit it with people, I think is really special.

Kate (20:49)

So I noticed that Parnassus has a healthy number of staff recommendations, and it's one of your main attractions in the store and on your website. So is that really a draw for your customers? And. And is it always a thrill for a customer to buy one of the books you've recommended?

Ann Patchett (21:05)

I think definitely. I mean, it's. It's such a part of why booksellers do staff recommendations. We have a section at the front of the store for anyone who hasn't been in, and most bookstores do of our staff recommendations. And I know, I feel it when I see someone pick up a book that I love, that I wrote a little blurb for, and they buy it, and if you're like, yes, nailed it, it's gonna. They're gonna love it. And every once in a while, I'll go up to the register and, you know, I mean, all of our booksellers, we just have the best staff. Everyone's so smart. They read so widely. I love seeing what they read because half the time is stuff that I wouldn't have picked up, but I love hearing them talk about it. And especially when someone picks, you know, a really kind of off the wall book, and I'll go up there and they'll be like, someone bought my staff rack. They did it. Yeah. There's a huge sense of, like, accomplishment and community. And I think for those of us who are in bookselling, a lot of us are very introverted. There are notable exceptions. Yeah. It's the way that we build community around something that is a solitary activity. To get to turn that into connection, I think is one of the joys of bookselling.

Charlie Gibson (22:06)

So, Kat, given the fact that your bookstore is owned by a prominent author, every independent bookstore has its unique mix of bookselling. But what makes Parnassus unique?

Ann Patchett (22:17)

There are certain things that are going to be the same across the board, but I think definitely having a bookstore where my boss is an incredibly acclaimed novelist and writer. Yeah, I think there are certain things that are unique about it. The fact that we get tourists that come to Nashville and come to us Straight from the airport, drop their bags behind the register, and shop. And they say, we came here because we love Aunt Patches so much. And then we get a real joy out of that, because then we get to say, here's her books. They're all signed. Do you want to get one personalized? And it's, again, that building connection, making people happy through books. That's. That's the joy of the job. Yeah. I mean, there are certain things that are incredibly unique about it and things that are the same at our core. We're all. We're all booksellers managing books. Every bookstore should have people being tourists there. I mean, I think that. I think that should be the case. I think bookstores should be destinations across the country.

Kate (23:09)

And you'll find Parnassus Books, the famous Parnassus Books on Hillsborough pike in Nashville, or you can just follow the busloads of tourists. Kat, thank you very much.

Ann Patchett (23:19)

Well, thank you.

Charlie Gibson (23:21)

So I love that, Kate, that there are some people who come directly to the bookstore when they get into Nashville. It is one of the stops that people should make. But as Kat said, independent bookstores should be a stop wherever you go, because there are differences. They all seem to feature local authors, and they all have their own unique twist on how to make book buyers comfortable when they come in.

Ann Patchett (23:48)

Yeah.

Kate (23:48)

And it's that special flavor that makes us love them and talk to them week after week. And so thank you, Parnassus, for taking the time, and thank you, Ann Patchett, for talking to us over two episodes about her amazing experiment. And we hope other authors will follow suit. You know, if nobody else reads this, other authors out there, you know, you have two nerdy readers in the two hosts of the bookcase. So, please, we encourage more experiments like this.

Charlie Gibson (24:16)

So we should mention before we go next week, next week, we have, I think, one of our favorite authors. Both Kate and me love Niall Williams. We hope that you actually, we talked to him. He was our first author guest for his book, this is Happiness. An Irish writer who wrote about this town that he's made up, this mythical town, tiny little town of Faja. And he has now written a second book, or actually it's a third book that features Faha. But it is, I think, and will be and will remind you next week, the perfect Christmas present. The Time of the Child is the name of the book. It comes out just before Christmas. It parallels the Christmas story and the story of a doctor and his spinster daughter in Faja, who are brought a foundling child. And it is tender. It is as Niall says, every book I write essentially is about love. It's about miracles. It is perfect for the Christmas season.

Kate (25:22)

Oh, it is achingly, it is achingly beautiful. It is just. And I also have to say, every time we we we, we do a book of Niles, I, I, I get really giddy because he's just as fun to talk to as he is to read. So I highly recommend not just the book but the conversation that we're going to have because it was one of those great conversations where my co host and I call each other afterwards and say, don't we have the best job in the whole world. So, so please join us for that. Pull up a cup of coffee and join us for a nice warm chat with a great Irish storyteller.

Charlie Gibson (25:56)

So we will remind you of who makes this podcast possible. And then we have a coda. A final word from Ann Patchett.

Kate (26:03)

The Bookcase with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producers are Laura Mayer and Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Taylor Rhodes, Amanda McMaster and Sarah Russell at Good Morning America and Josh Cohen, Asal Asanapour, Meg Fierro and Amira Williams at ABC Audio.

Ann Patchett (26:24)

Love your country, love your neighbor, be a good citizen.