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- [00:00]
Medicare Representative
An official message from Medicare.
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Savings Advocate
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Medicare Representative
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- [00:22]
Kate Gibson
Welcome to the bookcase. It is our fourth edition of the classics edition of the bookcase. So I feel like we shouldn't start with our catchy tune. We should start with, like, violin or like a, you know, some sort of a string quartet that's, you know, the pretentious music. And you pull up a chair. It's time for the Masterpiece Collection with Kate Gibson and Charlie Gibson.
- [00:42]
Charlie Gibson
Yes, that's me. That's me.
- [00:44]
Kate Gibson
I was gonna throw to you eventually. I thought you'd be expecting it, but whatever.
- [00:47]
Charlie Gibson
Well, I was thinking the way you introduced it, that Alistair Cook should be sitting in a chair with Masterpiece Theater, but that's so long ago. I'm not sure anybody.
- [00:56]
Kate Gibson
Well, and neither one of us owns a cravat, and neither one of us owns a pipe. But anyway, welcome to the fourth classics edition of the bookcase. Really excited to be doing Invisible man by Ralph Ellison, which I hadn't read. How long had it been since you read it?
- [01:13]
Charlie Gibson
Oh, lordy. Probably further back than you are old. I think I probably read it before. Oh, I know. I read it before you were born. I read it in college and was very, very impressed by it. Although it's a tough read, it's one of those books, I think, that a lot of people think they have read or know the basic outline of it and actually haven't read it. And it's worth reading. Certainly worth reading. It was written in 1952. He started it in 1945, Ellison did. And it's. It was unique at the time. It won the national book Award in 1953, beating out Hemingway and Faulkner. But it. It was different. You know, nobody had written that kind of book before. This was before Tahisi Coates. This was before Toni Morrison. It was before so many black writers who are prominent today, James McBride. It was before all that. It was revolutionary when came out, and it struck a chord. And as I say, difficult read, but as you'll hear, was immediately commercially successful.
- [02:10]
Kate Gibson
Yeah. And I find that surprising before we talk about how commercially successful it is. You know, for those of you doing the math at home, he's about 60 years removed from college. I'm about 30 years removed from college.
- [02:23]
Charlie Gibson
So don't do this to me.
- [02:24]
Kate Gibson
Don't do this to me. So I just want to point that out. I have to say I'm surprised. I mean, especially given the fact that the last classics conversation we had was To Kill a Mockingbird, which is a terrific book. But we agreed, I think, in our conversation that in some ways, To Kill a Mockingbird makes white readers feel safe. It has sort of a white savior figure in Atticus. And in some ways, it doesn't have a happy ending, but it has an ending where the main character gets to sit on her father's knee and everything's going to be okay. This is not that book. So I'm amazed it was as commercially successful as it was. As you say, it's difficult to read the opening scene. Battle Royale is so painful to read that it's hard to. I think one of our professors says it's sort of satire. And I'm like, well, it's real painful for me to read.
- [03:11]
Charlie Gibson
You'll hear that Katie and I have something of a disagreement. You feel that Ellison is just an angry, angry man and has every right to be. And has every right to be right, because this was. This was before Brown v. Board. This was. This was before the really civil rights movement. This was before African Americans as invisible people, seen by society as invisible, looked right past them. And it was a really interesting concept that he wrote this with a narrator who brings it all home in an individual basis. But as invisible people, it applies to the entire African American race. I don't think he's as angry as you do. I think there's a strong element of hope in what he writes, and I'm right and you're wrong.
- [03:53]
Kate Gibson
Well, but, you know, since you said that, let's not forget that this came out in 1952 and you were alive for them. But at any rate, again, I find the commercial success surprising because I do think it is generally an angry book. And I think it does not let white readers, and I am a white reader, off the hook in any way, shape or form. I mean, there are parts of this book that make me really uncomfortable and make me question a lot of things. So, again, the fact that it had commercial popularity back before Brown v. Board of Education is really stunning to me. And the fact that it won the book award against, like, Ernest Hemingway, I think that's wonderful and speaks well of American history, which there's not a lot to speak well of in American history back then in terms of race relations. But the fact that this won the national book Award in 1953 is really surprising to me. Now, when we do these Classics editions. As you know, we talk to. If you're a faithful listener, and you should be, we talk to scholars and college professors about these books because we think they have great insiders perspective and they know more about the history of the writing of the book and the author than we would. And so in the process of researching who we would talk to for Invisible Man, I stumbled upon the fact that. Which I should have known that Ralph Ellison attended Tuskegee University.
- [05:08]
Charlie Gibson
He did not graduate to study music, which is interesting, I think, given the rhythm of his writing. But. I'm sorry, go ahead. I.
- [05:15]
Kate Gibson
No, that's okay. I think it has some terrific jazz elements. In some ways, I think reading this is like reading music. At any rate, I looked up two professors who teach modern black lit at Tuskegee University. One, Dr. Zanice Bond, who I just love, and Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt, who is an expert in her field as well. And we had Dr. Gebhardt do a little bit of a reading just to give you a sense of the language and the density that is Invisible Man. So here we go with that.
- [05:43]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
So why do I write torturing myself to put it down? Because in spite of myself, I've learned some things without the possibility of action. All knowledge comes to one labeled file and forget. And I can neither file nor forget. Nor will certain ideas forget me. They keep filing away at my lethargy, my complacency. Why should I be the one to dream this nightmare? Why should I be dedicated and set aside. Yes. If not, at least tell a few people about it.
- [06:15]
Charlie Gibson
End our conversation with Dr. Zanice Bond and Dr. Caroline Gephardt on Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man.
- [06:24]
Kate Gibson
Dr. Carolyn Gebhard, Professor Emerita at Tuskegee University, and Dr. Zanice Bond, Associate professor at Tuskegee University. It is such a pleasure to have you both in the bookcase to discuss the Invisible man and Ralph Ellison. Such an incredibly complex and deep book. I want to start with Dr. Gebhardt. Why do you think this is considered a classic?
- [06:49]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
I think Ralph Ellison has succeeded in taking a very, in a way, personal, particular experience of the world. And by communicating the way he does, it becomes a universal story.
- [07:05]
Savings Advocate
We're looking at an African American man, an ordinary guy. And this written in 1952. This protagonist, this kind of protagonist was. Was unique in that his daily life was important, had relevance, had meaning, allowed us to look at our society, look at the experiences that people in the U.S. a black man, a young black man from the south going to Harlem, New York. These experiences have relevance and allow us as individuals, but also as a community and a nation, to look at with this African American male lens. That was important but also provides us with this universality that we see in contemporary writers continue to riff off of him. They continue to cite him and look toward him as an example.
- [08:05]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
I was looking up some information, and he beat out Hemingway and Steinbeck for the National Book Award. The first black American to win that award. And I think this must have been so startling in the 50s to have suddenly an inside perspective of what it was like to live this absurd world that segregation created.
- [08:25]
Charlie Gibson
What was the critical reaction at the time and what were the commercial sales of the book?
- [08:31]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
It was a bestseller. I mean, so it was both an artistic and critical success. Again, I think this new voice breaking on the scene. And, you know, some of the topics were daring, you know, the violence being directed against black people. But suddenly there's this sophisticated, anguished, intelligent, sympathetic voice telling what is it like to be daily insulted?
- [08:57]
Kate Gibson
It's interesting to me that it was an immediate bestseller because this book lets nobody off the hook. It is a. It is in some ways a diatribe against society. And I get the sense that when people read about race back then that they were much more comfortable with your To Kill a Mockingbirds and the White Savior novel and the what have you. So I'm amazed that it was a bestseller so quickly.
- [09:19]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
It's really in sync with the moment because it's post war. There's a lot of alienation. There's a lot of questioning of society. There's this sense of rebelling against conformity. I mean, I think all of the stuff that bubbles up with great furor in the 60s is starting in the 50s. You know, Dr.
- [09:39]
Charlie Gibson
Bond, I'm curious, do we know where Ellison got the idea of depicting his narrator and in a larger sense, blacks in America as invisible? The narrator is never given a name, despite all the difficulties and travails he undergoes. And. And he completely dominates the novel. Why do you think Ellison left him unnamed?
- [10:01]
Kate Gibson
Well, and we don't even know his pseudonyms because he goes through a couple of. He goes through a pseudonym as well in the book, and we don't get to learn that either. So that's interesting to me as well.
- [10:09]
Savings Advocate
That whole theme of invisibility. Even now, when you have people living on the periphery of a society, when you have people who are marginalized, that invisibility is just still very prevalent. Walking down the street, being acknowledged in whether it's a classroom or just a public space. It's very deeply rooted in. Unfortunately, not necessarily just this society, but certainly it is deeply rooted in this society. Because when we have these implications, what does invisibility suggest? Invisibility also leads us to thinking about the person not having a mind, not being able to think, being subhuman, not being valued on so many levels. The daily injustices that any number of people he had encountered, including himself, could certainly have sparked some of that. Some of that rage, some of that questioning, some of that deep need to talk about it in a special way. Hmm.
- [11:18]
Charlie Gibson
Dr. Gephardt, I think, made an interesting observation a minute ago. She said, it is a particular story of this individual, but there is a universality to it that you're always sensing as you read that he's able to do that. That dual individual story and universality of it, I think, is one of the really brilliant parts of the novel. And I come back to the idea. Do we have any idea of where he came up with this concept of invisibility?
- [11:46]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
I mean, Ellison presents it as almost a mysterious thing that happens as a work of art. He writes an introduction. I think it was like the 30th anniversary of the book. And he's saying this voice seemed to come out of nowhere, and he was actually working on another novel with a war hero, a pilot who was a pow. And so he had a whole different novel he was planning, and suddenly this voice just starts talking to him. So, I don't know. I mean, it seems like it's one of those mysterious, artistic, you know, moments.
- [12:18]
Kate Gibson
If you could put this novel in a genre box, could you put it in a genre box? And what genre would you put it in? It's not satire. It's not. How would you define it?
- [12:27]
Savings Advocate
Great question. And we see a lot of realism. We do see the surreal. We've got elements of modernism, and the language is poetic. And then we don't want to forget the blues element as well. So this kind of eclectic blend, which is in part what Ellison is saying in terms of U.S. culture, you know, we are so deeply. There are these deep intersections that people don't always recognize or acknowledge. So that kind of eclectic blend of this hodgepodge of experiences and information and the creativity.
- [13:10]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
I agree completely. And I think, again, to reframe it in terms of modernism. Ellison was in this library when he checked out T.S. eliot's Wasteland. And if there's a gender bending. Sorry, genre bending, not really gender bending. You know, pastiches of different things. You know, ancient Sanskrit, you know, pub slang. I mean, Ellison really got excited. This was like his. One of his major. Aha. Moments. Like, this is what literature could be. I think that that really spoke to him. And he's writing in a moment when, like, James Joyce, Ulysses, whoever did that before. So I. I think he's conceiving of the novel as something that you can do all these things with, play all the stops, if you will.
- [13:59]
Kate Gibson
There is jazz to the writing, a blues to the writing. And it almost seems at times like it's improvisational. It's very stream of consc. Do either one of you know if Ellison himself was a careful plotter or was he improvisational in this writing?
- [14:14]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
Well, I think that obviously music is really important to him. And he came to Tuskegee to study music, and that was his first major. And so he knew about improvisation. But I think Ellison. I mean, especially if we think of the later history of the endless revisions. And also this novel apparently was huge, and it was whittled down over 800 pages. And I read recently, really he thought about. Oh, yeah, it was much longer. And so I think that he really thought about the Ark and the shape of it and thought about it in terms of sections. So I think he was a careful plotter.
- [14:54]
Charlie Gibson
Kate and I have often talked about beginnings, and I just have a feeling that the beginning of this novel, which is so searing. I am an invisible man. First sentence. I am a man of substance, of flesh, of bone, fiber and liquids. And I might even be said to possess a mind. Now, if that doesn't draw you in right away, I don't know what would. Do you agree that that's about as compelling a beginning as I've ever seen in a novel?
- [15:21]
Savings Advocate
Definitely.
- [15:21]
Kate Gibson
So agree.
- [15:22]
Savings Advocate
And it made me think about the Vietnamese American writer, Dr. Nguyen, who Pulitzer Prize winning the Sympathizer. And he talks about the influence of Ellison on his work. In fact, he named his child Ellison in homage to Ellison. But he starts out the opening of the Sympathizer invoking Ellison and these lines. So those are some very powerful and, as you said, really compelling lines.
- [15:53]
Kate Gibson
Hmm. I get this. Well, I. It's debatable. But the narrator, it feels mentally unstable, that he has been in some ways driven mentally unstable by his surroundings. So I would ask you, given the fact that the book is written from the narrator's memory, is he a reliable narrator?
- [16:13]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
Well, everything is paradoxical, and there's a lot of ambiguity and nuance. So it's sort of like only a crazy person could narrate the truth of what America is like in this moment. So if he was presenting himself as totally sane and totally together, it wouldn't be believable. And somehow that makes him more believable. I mean, I think it's some kind of paradox like that.
- [16:38]
Savings Advocate
If we think about existing, surviving, trying to thrive in a nation, in a place that is home, that is also grounded in oppression and repression, it does certainly affect you. You're making me think about this event at Grinnell College when Ellison was there and he was at a reception. And you know, Ellison is, is poised and he's dapper and he's intelligent and he's well spoken and contained. And someone, a young man maybe in his 20s, had driven from Chicago to Iowa on his motorcycle to come and really let Ellison have it, to say, you're an Uncle Tom. And so he called him out, you're an Uncle Tom. And of course, Ellison had some really profound words to say. Poised. But before the end of that, he ended up weeping. Ellison said, I am not an Uncle Tom. I'm not an Uncle Tom. And there was a young student who was next to him and he said, Ellison put his head on his shoulder and said, I'm not an Uncle Tom. So you can see the outward poise and I've got it together. But on the inside, how it must be so humiliating and stressful.
- [18:12]
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- [18:35]
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Charlie Gibson
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Charlie Gibson
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Charlie Gibson
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- [19:34]
Charlie Gibson
You lead me into discussions that Kate and I have had as we've talked about, talking to the two of you about whether Ellison was an angry man. Kate says, dad, you're so naive to think that he's not just furious and angry. And I did read that James Baldwin called him the angriest man in America. But I find a strain of optimism in him. As shabbily as he is treated, he often refuses to see the ugly side.
- [20:01]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
I don't think it's an either or. No, I really don't. I mean, I think there's a lot of rage there, especially as a younger person, and a lot of pent up intensity. I mean, there's a sense of what it took to break through in that kind of place. But I also think that there was this generosity of spirit and also a really deep belief. I mean, he calls the founding documents, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, sacred. He says the principles of democracy, individual freedom, universal justice, those are things that he absolutely believes in.
- [20:40]
Savings Advocate
This is making me think of Cornel west, who was talking about Ellison. He was saying that there is the rage, there is the anger. Black people are a wounded people. You cannot dismiss that or ignore that. However, a lot of people don't always embrace or understand or recognize the creativity, the creative spirit. And Cornel west said there is this space in between that allows for some joy, that allows for the guys to go to the barbershop and enjoy a joke without being preoccupied all the time with white supremacy. So it's probably some kind of really beautiful defense mechanism where we, if you're going to be able to survive and keep yourself, but still be outraged with injustices. So that I agree with Caroline, it's not either or. So you are both right.
- [21:40]
Kate Gibson
The battle royale that opens the book, that is one of the most painful chapters. I mean, it is so painful to read and it is so angry. But I can see both of your points in the sense that you get the sense from the epilogue that the narrator's gonna come back up, that it's time for him to come back up, that he's gonna come out of the coal chute. Although, again with the epilogue, as I read it, I'm thinking to myself, why would you go back up?
- [22:05]
Savings Advocate
There's a raft of hope, right?
- [22:06]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
The raft of hope.
- [22:07]
Savings Advocate
Yeah.
- [22:07]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
He talks about the novel as a raft of hope, but I think if you're gonna fight to live life on your own terms, and Ellison was fierce about that, I think it was his destiny to be an artist. And what an amazing, audacious thing to take on in your 20s and somebody who's practically penniless. But he's determined. So if you're going to have a future that is anything like what you want, you're going to have to have a belief in the possibilities that America has for you, even despite everything. And I think humor is like that. That Battle Royale scene. I mean, it's just horrific. But there are aspects of it that have a terrible kind of humor. I mean, it's outrageous. It's over the top, you know, and he's making us see it as both horrifying and funny. I mean, that's a complex sensibility for me.
- [23:03]
Savings Advocate
What was kind of humorous was when he was with Dr. Bledsoe after. After Mr. Norton had been to the brothel and had run into all these unsavory folk, right? And Bledsoe was going. I mean, you couldn't. You couldn't say they had smallpox or. I mean, I don't know all of these. Like, you don't know how to lie. You're black in America. You haven't learned how to lie. You don't know when to lie, when to tell the truth, when. And that's when he called him the N word, which, of course, I didn't like that. But I'm thinking, I can see his rage. But we also. This gives us a moment to see the invisible man as a young, inexperienced, still trying to learn, still trying to get it together. So Caroline and I were talking, saying if he had had some more experiences. We come back to that.
- [23:51]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
I think the motives of the invisible man, which are opaque to himself. You know, I think there's this sense that he's so bought the line, like, you know, back to the Battle Royale scene, where he's talking about, you know, he's actually quoting Booker T. Washington's speech about cast down your bucket where you are, and he's swallowing blood while he's, like, trying to be eloquent. He's so thinking the ideal is the reality, that there's a kind of blindness.
- [24:22]
Kate Gibson
That's interesting.
- [24:23]
Charlie Gibson
I come back to this argument of whether he's just pure anger or whether there is a sense perhaps, that there is redemption ahead for society. And I'm on that raft of hope that you talked about. But I understand he was not sympathetic to the Black Power movement when it came in the 1960s. He did not believe in the idea of separation of the races. He felt that they had to get along. And so I find that a strain of hope in him.
- [24:52]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
He talks about the imagination as being integrative. And also, you think about Ross the Destroyer in the novel. I mean, he has a power. He has an eloquence. He's saying, why should we not hate them? Why should we not take vengeance on them? But I think Ellison presents that as a dead end. And not only a dead end, but it's like false to life, false to America, false to humanity. I mean, I think his vision is a big. A big. A big den and inclusive. And that's where our greatness is.
- [25:24]
Savings Advocate
You know, we were both saying how despite it all, there is this element of hope. He comes up, you know, to live another day, to fight another day. And we were also talking about the importance of. And we don't always see this in for like a black male character to be able to retreat. When we think about retreat, we're thinking of, oh, in war and battle. And that's not, you know, that's not manly, but a retreat in terms of going in and having. Taking stock in your experiences, self assessment, and then coming back to say, it's worth it. You know, I'm worth it. The struggle is worth it. Humanity is worth it. Our nation is worth it. So that. That was kind of the way it ended, really, for both of us, just that there is some hope.
- [26:16]
Charlie Gibson
This is not a forum for Kate and I to debate among ourselves, but we have been debating this for quite some weeks. I want to come back to an earlier podcast that we did with a couple of academics talking about Harper Lee and To Kill a Mockingbird. She never wrote another novel and was 42 years between the publication of Invisible man and when Ellison died. How come he never wrote another novel? Do you have a feeling why?
- [26:39]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
Well, we did talk about this too, and it's not that he didn't write. That's the thing. I mean, he published a lot of stuff, but not another novel. But also he was writing and rewriting and endlessly writing a novel. Why didn't he commit himself to a form that could be published? I think he was a perfectionist with.
- [27:01]
Savings Advocate
The success of Invisible man and then the kind of pressure that he put on himself as a writer and a thinker and maybe, oh, what is that? Perfection is the enemy of finished. So if he's operating from that level, then he wants it to be better. And maybe in some level he didn't have that. And I was reading. I can't remember who said it. There was maybe a colleague or friend who kind of helped to support him that maybe was no longer in his life, and I have to find that out. But someone was saying, you know, if he had had, you know, Joe Blow still in the picture, that maybe that would have been the kind of safe person to kind of help. Help him navigate through. So it's interesting that he didn't do another novel, but of course, to be on, like, this novel was on what, the 50 or 100 most beloved novels of the 20th century? And then also some of his short stories were also on a list. So he. He was writing. He just didn't do another novel. Yeah, if I only wrote one and it was Invisible Man, I wouldn't be mad.
- [28:20]
Charlie Gibson
This novel is complex. It is long, it is singular in language and style. Might even be described as hard to read. Is this one of those novels that people think they know and haven't read, really, but have a familiarity with it, do you think?
- [28:35]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
I think that's. That's fair. Yeah, it is.
- [28:38]
Savings Advocate
Yeah.
- [28:39]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
It is a challenging novel, no question. But you mentioned the fact that Adam Bradley has read it 30 times.
- [28:45]
Savings Advocate
Yeah, that's what he told us. Yeah. So now it's probably over 30.
- [28:49]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
And I do think it is a novel that rewards rereading. And I have to confess that it had been a number of years since I had read it when we decided that we wanted to honor the literary legacies at Tuskegee. And so we put together this Grant and Ellison, of course, was in it. So I was, of course, teaching it when I hadn't taught it in quite a while. And the Todd Clifton, the shooting of an unarmed black man, that just jumped out at me. And I didn't remember that from having read it, amazingly enough. It didn't register in the way that it registers now, you know, So I think that it's interesting how there's so much in it, you know, I think it's a novel that really rewards rereading.
- [29:27]
Charlie Gibson
If the man was invisible in this book, women are even more invisible.
- [29:31]
Kate Gibson
Yeah.
- [29:32]
Charlie Gibson
Dr. Zanise Bond, thank you very much. And Dr. Caroline Gebhard, thank you both for being with us. It's an interesting book and a book that will resonate, I think, long, long in the future, as it has in the last. Well, in the last. What is it, 73 years since he wrote, since it was published.
- [29:49]
Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt
Really. Thank you for this opportunity to talk about this book. It made us go back and do a lot of thinking and conversing, and it was just wonderful.
- [29:57]
Savings Advocate
Yeah. And a pleasure to see you and your lovely daughter.
- [30:00]
Kate Gibson
Yay. Our conversation with Dr. Carolyn Gebhardt and Dr. Zanise Bond at Tuskegee. They were both in the same room. I'll give a little plug for libraries. They were in the Tuskegee Library, and, man, did that look like a cool place. And, man, they talked about some awesome archival collections. Libraries just. They have such hidden gems in them. You never know what you'll find. So. So thank you to both of them for talking to us about this dense, complex, wonderful, difficult, uncomfortable book.
- [30:36]
Charlie Gibson
Well, I would make. I would make one other mention. You convinced me, something I had never done before, to get the Audible book. And as I read the edition, I listened simultaneously to the audiobook, and it was read by a man I've never heard of, Joe Morton, his name was. And he did a magnificent job in getting the rhythm and the cadence and giving it a cadence that Ralph Ellison wrote. I didn't know that he had studied music at the time I read this. And I did know that he was friends with some prominent musicians at the time, Duke Ellington and Charlie Parker and some others. But I didn't realize what musicality there was when you read it. And I thought Morton was not only exhibiting the musicality of his writing, but also he sounded at times like a preacher in the pulpit.
- [31:25]
Kate Gibson
He did. It is a masterful performance. I think he really embodies the character of the narrator. I mean, there are times where he sort of giggles maniacally when he's reading. And you really get a sense that he must have studied this book backwards and forwards to read it as smoothly and with such character and depth as he does. Because I have listened to it as well. I didn't this time, but, man, is he good. I mean, you have to know, too, I guess when somebody hands you Invisible man and says, would you do the audiobook for this? Joe Morton is a character actor. You would recognize him if you saw him, but you might not recognize his name. But when somebody hands you Invisible man by Ralph Ellison and says you're going to be the audio narrator for this, that's a heavy responsibility. I mean, again, I think in some ways you are the steward of the book. And Joe Morton does a masterful job of reading, of reading the book.
- [32:15]
Charlie Gibson
So it was actually a treat to listen to it and to follow along in the text at the same time. Anyway, that was our conversation, our fourth classic novel. And we take suggestions, if you have suggestions and want to pass them on on the Apple website, where you can leave a comment and you have a thought about what we ought to do, please do.
- [32:33]
Kate Gibson
So we've had some.
- [32:34]
Charlie Gibson
We would be delighted.
- [32:35]
Kate Gibson
Some people have suggested Jane Austen, so I think we might do Pride and Prejudice. Some people have suggested Jane Eyre, which I've never read.
- [32:42]
Charlie Gibson
Oops. You just threw yourself under the bus.
- [32:44]
Kate Gibson
I did. That's kind of the philosophy in our family. We don't wait for somebody to throw us, we throw ourselves because it's much easier.
- [32:51]
Charlie Gibson
One other thing I should mention, we have been honored, really, to have J. Ryan straddle as our writer in residence for a number of months now. We have followed Jay Ryan, who wrote his first book, was so successful, Kitchens of the Great Midwest. He wrote Saturday Night at the Lakeside Supper Club. His books have been extraordinarily successful. And we glommed on to Jay Ryan when he started his fourth book. And we have been with him. If you've been listening to the podcast, and as Kate says, you should, we have sort of chronicled each stage as he's gone through so much of it was writing to get into the meter of the book. And as we've said, his mom died. She died at the age of 55. She was an enormous influence on him, and he envisioned this novel as writing the life that she could have had, should have had. He wished she'd had, had she not died so prematurely. He's now finished the book, and we're very excited to talk to him. We're going to have that on in a couple of weeks. He thinks it's a terrific book, and if he thinks it's a terrific book, so will we.
- [33:54]
Kate Gibson
Oh, I can't wait. It's the most personal book that he's written. I think in some ways he toiled at it in a way that's different than he's toiled his other books, because his mother was such a tremendous influence in his life. He would not be a writer without his mother and his mother's voice in his head. I've always thought if you read his first three books, one of the things he does really well, which. I'm sorry, guys. A lot of men fail at writing female voices. They just do. It's hard to get in the head of a woman. We are a complex species. But. But Jay Ryan writes women beautifully. I mean, just beautifully. And I think that's the influence of his mother in his life and in his writing. And I can't wait to read it. Like, I. I want to read it before we talk to him. I know I can't. So the next conversation that we have with him is really going to be about what finishing feels like and also how you then go about the editing process and how he's going to take this book to the market. I can't wait. When he wrote me and texted me and goes, you know, I'm done. I wrote woo hoo all out in text with many O's.
- [34:58]
Charlie Gibson
That will be, that will be coming up in a in a few weeks. Jay Ryan straddle on the completion of his fourth novel. Yeah, in the meantime, we'll bring you up to date. Well, we don't bring you up to date. It's a repetition of the people who make this podcast possible and then nothing. We don't, we don't have a coda.
- [35:16]
Kate Gibson
And then awkward blank space.
- [35:17]
Charlie Gibson
Right. It will just end.
- [35:19]
Kate Gibson
It will just end and you will be sad.
- [35:23]
Charlie Gibson
We'll see you next week.
- [35:25]
Kate Gibson
The book Case with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg, Arielle Chester at Good Morning America and Josh Cohan from ABC Audio. Follow the bookcase wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to listen, rate and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have them linked in the episode Description.
- [35:58]
Progressive Insurance Representative
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