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- [00:00]
Kate
I was never really a runner.
- [00:02]
Charlie
The way I see running is a.
- [00:04]
Kate
Gift, especially when you have stage four cancer.
- [00:08]
Charlie
I'm Ann.
- [00:09]
Kate
I'm running the Boston Marathon, presented by bank of America. I run for Dana Farber Cancer Institute to give people like me a chance to thrive in life, even with cancer. Join bank of America in helping Anne's cause. Give if you can@b of a.comSupportAnn what would you like the power to do? References to charitable organizations is not endorsement by bank of America Corporation. Copyright 2025.
- [00:37]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Well, hello out there in podcast land. This is time again for the Bookcase with Kate and Charlie. And I'm the Charlie part. Though I have second billing in the title of the podcast. I'm getting to lead off today, and I guess that makes me top billing today, right, Kate?
- [00:52]
Kate
Okay, so you just promoted yourself. That's, you know, that's something well done.
- [00:57]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Well, I did. It's a sure bet that you're not gonna promote.
- [01:02]
Kate
He says his name first in his mind, and I imagine he makes his wife, my mother, do it too, when she's at home with him. By the way, what does podcast land look like? I mean, are there microphones on the trees?
- [01:12]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Oh, it is a rich land. It is a fantasy land. There are jelly beans everywhere and candy and all the good things to eat.
- [01:22]
Kate
And all great audio quality and sound waves and. Anyway, sorry.
- [01:26]
Curtis Sittenfeld
You got it. You got it. It is an enchanted land. It is enchanted. Especially when you're listening to the Bookcase with Kate and Charlie. We have a book this week that I want to express a prejudice. Short stories don't get enough attention. And the books that are filled with short stories don't usually wind up on the New York Times bestseller list. And I think bookstores, rather than lump short story collections into fiction generally, I think there should be a short story section in a bookstore. There's a. Short stories are a particular genre and they require a particular talent, I think, to write well. And when they're written well, they are jewels. And we have a jewel this week. Curtis Sittenfeld, who has written so many, I think seven very popular novels published, her second short story collection just out, called Show Don't Tell. And I loved it. And I know you did, too.
- [02:24]
Kate
I did, too. The short story collections that we've had on the bookcase. I would. I would argue with anybody who said short stories collections aren't worth as much as a novel. Stories from the Tenants Downstairs, Table for Two by Amor Toles. The History of Sound by Ben Shattuck. I think we have picked some of the best of the best and Show Don't Tell, I think should be among them. It was for me. I don't love anthologies as much, I'll say that. I don't love short story anthologies as much where it's different authors pulled together because I find that jarring to go from one author style of a short story to another author style of a short story. But if a good author can pull off a whole book of short stories, where you go, boy, I, you know, there wasn't one of those that I thought, eh, then I think you've really, you've shown some tremendous talent and. And Show Don't Tell doesn't have a clunker among them. And I really enjoyed every single one. In fact, you know, that's again, what I love about short story collections and what my favorite were like the third story, the fourth story, the fifth story, it wasn't even the story that opened or closed. There's a brilliant short story in here about race in the suburbs. There's several short stories about the roads not taken later in life. I mean, it's a very well assembled, well written collection.
- [03:42]
Curtis Sittenfeld
There's not really a thematic connection. I suppose you can try to make one of these 12 stories. And as Kate says, there isn't a clinker on the bunch. The one she mentioned is White Women, lol, which is a story of a woman who gets in trouble talking to a restaurant table of black women. It gets put on the Internet, goes viral, the woman gets shunned. There's another story which is really a very thinly veiled portrayal of Jeff Bezos and his now divorced from wife. That I thought was a really terrific story. I just think it's called the Richest Babysitter in the World. By the way, there's another story called A For Alone, which is. It's trying to disprove the Mike Pence rule, which is that if you're married, you shouldn't spend time with another person's wife. I think it's kind of, yes, Alone. I think it's kind of like Harry Met Sally. There's a Harry Met Sally comp. Part to it. She's out to disprove what she calls the Mike Pence Rule. And it's a. It's a wonderful story. There's also. For fans of Curtis Sittenfeld, the book that brought her to prominence probably was Prep, which was her first novel. In the last story, which is lost but not forgotten, she brings back Lee Fiora, who was the principal character in prep. So that's kind of interesting. Amor Toles did the same thing, bringing back a character at the end of A Table for Two. It's a wonderful short story collection.
- [05:06]
Ann
Yeah.
- [05:07]
Kate
There's another short story that's called the Follow up, which is just about a woman's follow up to an abnormal mammogram and the waiting process and what she goes through to get that follow up and what waiting for the results are like. The conversation that we had with Ben Shattuck this summer where he really laid out what he thought a short story was, which is a short story is. Well, you know, it's a long walk for which you are there for a small part of it. It begins before you get there. It keeps going after you're gone. The short story is a snapshot, a snippet of a part of a story. And yet somehow I think if you're a really talented writer like Ben Shattuck is, like Amor Towles is like. Like Curtis Sittenfeld is, there's still a feeling of an ending, even though you know the story will continue after you've, you know, you don't really know what happens, but yet you still feel like there was an ending. And these stories are brilliant, I think, at that. They get you to sort of stop and admire the view and you feel a sense of completion, even if the story itself is incomplete, if that makes any sense at all.
- [06:10]
Curtis Sittenfeld
No, that's right. There's an ending to the story, but you're also left wondering, okay, now what happens afterward? This has set you up for thinking about what may come to follow or, as you say, what preceded this story. It's a gift, I think, to do that. And one of the things you want to be careful to, I think, if you're a short story writer, is that you don't want to tell too much because you're leaving things to the imagination of the reader before and after the story occurs. So are you too, filling in a lot of the blanks in the story, which is very tautly written? Anyway, we love talking to Curtis Sittenfeld. Here's our conversation about her book, Show Don't Tell.
- [06:51]
Kate
Curtis Sittenfeld. It is such a pleasure to have you in the bookcase. Your collection of short stories Show Don't Tell. I want to start a little bit by talking generally. What is your mission when you sit down to write a short story? And do you know you're writing one when you sit down?
- [07:05]
Charlie
I typically do know that I'm writing a short story because a novel for Me feels like a huge topic that I can approach in many different ways. And I almost feel like if you said to me, why are you interested in this? It would take me like 45 minutes to say why. Whereas a short story feels much more like a fleeting moment.
- [07:31]
Kate
But when you're writing then a short story, what do you think an author owes the reader in terms of an ending, a beginning? And how much infrastructure as an author do you have of the story as a whole, built beyond the short story?
- [07:48]
Charlie
I mean, I think that if I'm writing fiction, I think my primary obligation to the reader is to tell an entertaining story. I think that there's other stuff I can sort of work in, but I think if there's not an entertaining story, what's the point, basically? And I do outline. I outline when I write novels and I outline when I write short stories. And I would say that puts me in the minority of fiction writers. I know.
- [08:16]
Kate
How do your outlines for a novel look different from your outlines for a short story? And how much detail do you get into when you're outlining a short story?
- [08:25]
Charlie
Well, this. This sounds like a joke, but it's actually sincere. My outlines for novels are longer and my outlines for short stories are shorter. Typically, to me, a scene gets one line and an outline. So if a scene is half a page or if a scene is 10 pages, it still probably gets one line. And it's like, what is the essential thing that happens or changes in that scene? And then I can kind of. It's almost like traveling to another country and being like, well, I'm going to leave my hotel at this time and I'm going to go to this museum and then walk by this lake. But you don't really know what will happen at the museum or at the lake.
- [09:10]
Curtis Sittenfeld
We talked to a wonderful short story writer a few weeks ago, Ben Shattuck, and I asked him essentially what Katie just asked, what do you owe the reader? And he said, which I thought was a. Has made me look at short stories totally differently. He said the short story has to begin before the first word of the short story. There has to be something that's happened preceding the story, and then it needs to go on after the story ends. In other words, you're catching the story in the middle. It's fascinating because I've read many of the stories in Show Don't Tell thinking of that. What happened before we got into this and then what happened afterwards. Does that ever occur to you?
- [09:47]
Charlie
It's funny because I've never heard that Advice, and I think it's very interesting. It's very intriguing to me. So my editor, who I've worked with on novels and short stories, I had one other story collection that came out in 2018, and she said, you don't want the end of a story to be tied up too neatly. And again, I was like, I went to the Iowa writers workshop, graduated 24 years ago, and I was like, oh, I've never heard that. I don't know.
- [10:22]
Curtis Sittenfeld
So you don't actually think about or you don't project your characters into the future after your short story ends?
- [10:29]
Charlie
Not really. I mean, I think a lot in terms of the structure of a story, and so it does kind of end for me at the end. But one of the stories is a sort of sequel to my first novel, Prep, which came out 20 years ago. And so obviously, I did kind of keep that protagonist in my mind after the novel ended, and she's now basically 30 years older.
- [11:00]
Kate
So when you sit down. First of all, a lot of these stories I know I read in your acknowledgments were published previously. And so I was interested in what it was that inspired you to get this particular collection together. Like, how do you know? I got a pretty big, at this point, bevy of short stories. I better bind them up and release them in a book. I mean, what was the inspiration then to turn around and do that?
- [11:23]
Charlie
So going back a few years, like, probably going back to, like, 2020 or 2021, I would say to my agent and my editor, like, I would say, I think that I should have a story collection. Like, I think. I think I'm. I'm ready, that there are enough and that. That also enough of them sort of engage with the current moment or the recent past, that it just. It just felt like, you know, this. This feels like the right moment. And then. And then I think the minute they said, okay, that's fine, and the reality is, I'm sure you both know, is that publishing would rather come out with a novel than a story collection. But the minute they said, okay, we'll publish your story collection, I said, oh, I have an idea for a novel. Never mind. And then that was my last novel. So that delayed things, like, another two years or whatever. But my publisher. I've been with the same publisher for more than 20 years, Random House, and they did say, you need. According to the terms of this contract, you need to write three stories that have never been published. So if you could get them in the New Yorker tomorrow, we wouldn't Want you to. Just because the reader wants to feel like there's some reason to buy the book instead of just poke around the Internet.
- [12:38]
Kate
How do you then when you say, okay, so I've written my three original stories, I've got these pre published works. I'm ready to gather them all together. I'm sort of interested in the process of how you then. And this may be more book nerdy than our audience is interested in. I hope not audience, but I mean, how do you then go about assembling them as an arc? How do you know what story number one is? And how do you know what the last story is and the ones that should go in the middle?
- [13:02]
Charlie
That's a great question that I. Again, I mean, maybe I'm a book nerd too, but I think. Imagine that. I think that it's funny because I think that short story writers put stories in a very careful, deliberate order, just like the way a musician does with an album. And then I think the way people consume them might be completely different. But I will say I felt like show, don't tell, the titular story might have actually been the last story. Except that it felt so clear that the prep sequel story needed to be the last story. So then the. The story about these graduate students in a writing program in the late 90s who are sort of obsessed with their next year's funding and are all very petty and ambitious, that became the first story, which I think does kind of change the flavor of the book a little bit because it makes the book a little bit more self conscious because the protagonist is a writer. But those, I guess those just felt to me like the biggest stories or the anchor stories.
- [14:09]
Curtis Sittenfeld
But in all of the Curtis Sittenfeld reading that I've done, and I've done a fair bit, I always think there's a what if question in your mind. What if this had happened? What if that had occurred? How did I get. Well, you asked the question actually in one of the stories. How did I get here? What if. What if things had happened differently in my life? Is that fair to say that that's something that you. That you enjoy playing with?
- [14:36]
Charlie
Yes, it is. And it's funny to hear you say that because I think you're totally correct. And I think that I write a lot of times out of confusion. And then I. So then I wrote write a story and then someone else tells me what I wrote a story about. So thank you.
- [15:05]
Kate
Oh, I like that.
- [15:06]
Curtis Sittenfeld
In the story the Richest Babysitter in the World, which I particularly like. Cause I know a lot about Jeff Bezos. Anyway, as he's lying awake at night, he thinks, how did I arrive at this point? And I do think that's a common theme in your work.
- [15:22]
Charlie
I feel like. I think some of what I write about is sort of the discrepancy between people's public identities and private identities. And I think there are a lot of people who, you know, in middle age and these are very middle aged stories. I myself am 49. I think there are a lot of people who think, like, why is this the life I'm leading? Like, why do I live in this place and not that place? And why do I have this job and not that job? And I feel to some extent like I would much rather be friends with someone who wonders those things than someone who does it. You know, like somebody who just feels like everything is fine. I feel totally at peace. It's like, what do you even talk about with that person? Seriously? It's true.
- [16:08]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Well, you do. You're in your own mind. You go over and over the decisions that you made that cut off other avenues. And you sometimes look at your spouse and think, how did I get here with her or with him?
- [16:21]
Charlie
You sometimes do.
- [16:23]
Curtis Sittenfeld
I think that's inevitable that that happens. So I think it's a wonderful theme to explore and it's a very rich palette for.
- [16:32]
Charlie
I mean, I think, yeah, I think it's easy. Easy for a lot of people to sort of identify with.
- [16:37]
Kate
It's interesting that you say that about the age and the age of the protagonist because I am 48 years old and I. I also have found myself a lot in the last few years examining the roads not taken. I'm not quite sure why it's a roads not taken time of life, but it does kind of seem to be that.
- [16:53]
Charlie
Well, it's probably a road's not taken time of life in part, because if you're going to take a different road that's going to last for any length of time, you kind of have to do it right.
- [17:07]
Kate
I'm also fascinated as a writer, what your editing process is like on a short story and a short story collection versus a novel. What sort of tightness are you looking for in a short story versus a novel? And how do you work that process for yourself?
- [17:22]
Charlie
That's a good question. So I feel like with a short story, I'm trying to make it as short as possible. Partly in case it is published in a magazine or something. It should be maybe 20 double spaced pages or something. It shouldn't be 40 double spaced pages. Even though I'm a wordy person, where a novel, I feel like maybe more tells you how long it should be. And then I think you, the writer tells you tell a short story how, how long it will be.
- [17:51]
Kate
So yeah, your editing process is really about taking things out as much as is humanly possible. Do you read to yourself?
- [17:59]
Charlie
I definitely, I read aloud to myself and I, I write longer. Like if in doubt, I include it and then later I remove it. Or even if I think should I do this scene or should I not do this scene, I would write the scene because I just feel like you can't evaluate it in your head. It has to exist.
- [18:19]
Curtis Sittenfeld
You alluded to this earlier, that people tell you what they thought the story was about and you think, oh, but at the end of one of the stories, follow up, you say a character thinking, what is this story about? You ask that question and then you give four or five alternative answers as to what this story had been about. Do you ever, after you finish the story, think, I don't know what it was about? Let the reader figure it out?
- [18:47]
Charlie
Yes, I mean, I think, I feel like my job is to kind of like. My job is definitely more to ask questions than to answer questions. And I feel like my job is to sort of create this structure. It's not to like deliver a clear message.
- [19:05]
Curtis Sittenfeld
So you want ambiguity?
- [19:07]
Charlie
Well, I think if, if somebody read a story and they said, okay, the, the point of this story is, you know, there should be like greater financial equality in our society. I mean, it's like, of course there should be greater financial equality in our society. But if, if I'm, if that's the main thing I want to convey, I should write an opinion piece. I should not write fiction. Like fiction is for, you know, like holding up a mirror to sort of the human experience. And kind of like fiction is for doing the things that only fiction can do, which a lot of times is this like intimacy and like this, this gives people this recognition or puts into words, you know, fleeting emotions or very nuanced emotions or again, just like transports you or entertains you.
- [20:02]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Do you have to like your characters?
- [20:04]
Charlie
I don't think you have to like them, but I think that you have to kind of recognize their humanity or have some degree of compassion for them. Because otherwise, I mean, there's, it's just kind of like character assassination.
- [20:19]
Curtis Sittenfeld
John Irving said, I have to have a character right away that you're going to care about what happens to them, that you right away have to be engaged by that character. I don't know if that's true in this short story. Is, is it?
- [20:34]
Charlie
That's a good question. I think that the character does have to be like, seem three dimensional or seem, you know, like, like flesh and blood or something. Like, I, I don't think reading a short story, I mean it would be interesting to think of examples that contradict this, but I think that reading a short story would not be that satisfying if the character doesn't come alive at all.
- [20:59]
Kate
The new collection Show Don't Tell by Curtis Sittenfeld. There's not a bum among the stories. Highly, highly Recommend.
- [21:06]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Yeah, you're 12 for 12.
- [21:07]
Kate
Thoroughly.
- [21:08]
Curtis Sittenfeld
You're hitting a thousand.
- [21:10]
Charlie
Thank you. Thank you both so much.
- [21:13]
Curtis Sittenfeld
So we'll pause for a moment and when we come back, some rapid fire questions for Curtis Sittenfeld. And then a bookstore and we haven't talked to a bookstore that handles romance novels and we're going to do that when we talk to the owner of the plot twist. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states.
- [22:02]
Charlie
Imagine a world class graduate education that's accessible, flexible and designed for career impact. That's Harvard Extension School. Build actionable knowledge and skills in challenging online classes taught by Harvard faculty and industry experts. Explore new opportunities and expand your network with high achieving professionals from around the world. Part time learning real world impact. This is Harvard on your terms. Learn more at Extension Harvard. Edu.
- [22:30]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Spotify.
- [22:32]
Charlie
This episode is brought to you by Lifelock.
- [22:35]
Curtis Sittenfeld
It's tax season and we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's one.
- [22:39]
Charlie
You need to hear.
- [22:40]
Curtis Sittenfeld
$16.5 billion. That's how much the IRS flagged for.
- [22:45]
Charlie
Possible identity fraud last year. Now here's a good number.
- [22:48]
Curtis Sittenfeld
100 million.
- [22:50]
Charlie
That's how many data points Lifelock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it.
- [22:55]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Guaranteed.
- [22:56]
Charlie
Save up to 40% your first year@lifelock.com.
- [23:00]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Podcast terms appreciate rapid fire.
- [23:09]
Kate
Questions for Curtis Sittenfeld. Do you have a favorite short story collection beyond Show Don't Tell by Curtis Sittenfeld?
- [23:15]
Charlie
Let's see. I guess I would say I really loved A Lucky man by Jamel Brinkley, which came out in 2018. I mean, I don't know. I'm not sure I would Say, like, one single favorite story collection, but that's definitely in my. In my top five.
- [23:33]
Curtis Sittenfeld
What are you reading right now?
- [23:35]
Charlie
I am reading. This has a very long title that I will get slightly long. It's called something like the Story of a Limb and the Boy who Grew from it by Greg Marshall. And it's this memoir that came out maybe two years ago. And this man named Greg Marshall grew up in a big family in Utah. They were not Mormon. They were actually his dad. Both his parents were kind of journalists. And his parents never told him that he had cerebral palsy. They told him that he had tight tendons. It's this wild, like, it's. It's very. It's this very warm, funny, sometimes dark story. I think you both. I think you both should read it and would like it anyway. Leg by Greg Marshall.
- [24:25]
Curtis Sittenfeld
How do you pick out what you're going to read?
- [24:27]
Charlie
So I actually participated in the Texas Book Festival with him, and that was why I knew the book existed. And I just thought. I thought, oh, that sounds kind of intriguing. And I will say, I never listen to the audio of fiction, but I like listening to nonfiction. And I specifically like nonfiction that's read by the author. And this was an example. Like, he reads it himself, and he does a great job.
- [24:51]
Kate
Why don't you like to listen to fiction?
- [24:54]
Charlie
I think because this is very book nerdy, I think because I like to see how it's all laid out, where the paragraphs are and where the sentences end and all that stuff. And so I just kind of feel like listening to fiction. I get lost in it, but I don't get lost in nonfiction.
- [25:17]
Kate
Hmm. How do you decide what you're gonna read next? Is it the exact opposite of what you just read? Is it in chronological order of release? How do you decide?
- [25:25]
Charlie
It might have to do with timing as much as anything else. Because I feel like I could walk around my house and find, like, 200 books that I'd be delighted to read. So I'm always sort of drowning in books, which is, you know, a nice thing.
- [25:39]
Kate
What do you use for a bookmark?
- [25:41]
Charlie
Sometimes an envelope, actually.
- [25:43]
Kate
So basically, whatever's lying nearby.
- [25:46]
Charlie
No, usually an envelope.
- [25:48]
Kate
Specifically an envelope. Okay, so it is a choice. It's a conscious choice.
- [25:52]
Charlie
Well, sometimes I have this weird relationship with where sometimes I don't want to. I want to, like, make note of lines I like. So I'll write down what page the line is on and on the envelope, and then I'll lose the envelope. The envelope, and the book will get Separated. Oh.
- [26:11]
Kate
The book is Show Don't Tell by Curtis Sittenfeld. Thank you so much for sitting with us.
- [26:15]
Charlie
Thank you. What a pleasure.
- [26:22]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Just before we leave, Curtis Sittenfeld. One of the things, Katie, I made a mistake in reading this book and I would urge people, I, first of all, urge people to read the book because the short stories are wonderful. But secondly, when you have a collection of short stories and we feel the need to read so many books, for this book podcast, I read more than one of the short stories at a time. I read three at a time. And that's a mistake because I think just like a novel, you, you do want to finish a short story and think about what we were talking about, what did happen before this story occurred and what's going to happen afterwards. And reading three all at once, I don't know. I lost that think time, I guess, and I regret it.
- [27:03]
Kate
Well, I, I read it the same way. But that being said, I think there are some people who like reading short stories. That way they don't feel like they're really reading unless they put down something and they're only halfway done with it, be it a short story, a novel, they have to put it down in the middle. But that being said, I hear what you're saying. I sort of enjoy sometimes doing two or three short stories in a row. Especially if it's not, I mean, maybe if it's not so much this as it is more like a Stephen King, like, I'll do two or three because he's written some terrific, terrific short story collections. Amazing. In fact, my favorite book of all time is Different Seasons by Stephen King. It's got Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption. It's got a great book called. It's got a great short story in it called Breathing Lessons, Apt Pupil. I think his best short stories are in different seasons. So I actually sometimes enjoy doing two or three in a row.
- [27:51]
Curtis Sittenfeld
I think short story collections are made for reading in bed. I defy anybody to read more than 20 pages before they fall asleep for 25. And so short stories are made for hopping into bed, reading a short story, turning off the light and going to sleep. Anyway, the book is Show Don't Tell Curtis Sittenfeld. We couldn't recommend it more highly. We have a bookstore today and it's the first time we've done a romance bookstore. Romance novels are so big. And there's a brand new romance bookstore in Denton, Texas. The name of the bookstore is the Plot Twist. Owned by a mother daughter combination and we had a chance to talk to the mother involved, dawn of one of the owners of the Plot Twist in Denton, Texas.
- [28:40]
Kate
Dawn from the Plot Twist book Bar in Denton, Texas. I've gotta know first. I gotta first ask you. You are a mother daughter team that opened a bookstore. We are a father daughter team that hosts a podcast. Any regrets or do you think this was the best idea you ever had or is working with your daughter driven you to insan?
- [29:04]
Ann
So no regrets and definitely not insanity yet. We are learning a lot that we forgot about each other's characteristics when you don't live together. You know, she had, she's an adult, she has a family. So we didn't see each other every day and now we're together every day, all day. We're just learning about each other again. And so luckily we both have thick skin. We don't carry things on our shoulders. So when we say something that we shouldn't say, we're both like, I love you. Okay, moving on. And that's, I think that sue super important in order for this to work for us to have that capability to say, I know she didn't mean it.
- [29:44]
Curtis Sittenfeld
I saw you were a pop up store for a little while and then just recently had a grand opening. And I'm curious as to what led in the conversations between you and your daughter to saying, okay, let's do this, let's give it a shot.
- [30:00]
Ann
Yeah. So we originally started talking about it last year, early in the year. And she wanted to just go in, find a brick and mortar, open the book bar. And I was real hesitant and kind of scared about that. And I said, let's start as a pop up. And so In September of 24 we received our first order of books and they were in my sun room at our house in Denton, Texas. And we did a pop up. And over the course of five or six weeks, we did four, four or five pop ups. And we just felt like we were what, our level of success or our definition of success? We felt like, hey, this is pretty good. This is going to be doable. And that was in September of 24. And then we started driving around looking for brick and mortar. And it just was a divine intervention, whatever you want to call it, it was there, we snagged it, signed a lease. November 1st, we moved in. So it just happened super fast.
- [30:55]
Kate
Is this a genre over which you and your daughter have always bonded and exchanged books? Like, where did, where did the centrality of romance come from?
- [31:06]
Ann
Well, so when she was in high school, I'd Say middle school, high school, the Twilight era came out and she was this huge Twilight fan. I happened to work in the movie industry business at the time. So I had the insider advice scoop on new releases of the movie. So she said, mom, start reading the books with me because then you'll like the movies even better. And so I did. And we, we just read the books over and over and we just talked about them all the time. And we saw the first movie 17 times. So we just became these, these just, you know, this is why this young adult readers together. Even though I was in my 30s at the time and we were just bonding over that. And so that's kind of where it began.
- [31:54]
Curtis Sittenfeld
17 times you watched the movie?
- [31:57]
Ann
We did, we did. It kind of helps when you work in the corporate building right next to the theater. So I just kind of would, you know, pop over and spend an hour on lunch break sitting there eating a hot dog and watching the movie again.
- [32:13]
Curtis Sittenfeld
When did you transition from pop up to mortar store? When was your grand opening?
- [32:20]
Ann
Yeah, it was just January 18th and.
- [32:22]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Tell me about it.
- [32:23]
Charlie
Yes.
- [32:24]
Ann
And we, wow. We were blown away because we had a lot of cold weather that weekend. It was in the 40s and the wind was blowing about 15 to 20 miles an hour. And we were on the end of a strip in the downtown area. And so we, I told the girls that morning, hey, I think we're gonna have a little bit of a line. Just historically you've watched other romance books. Doors open, there's a little line. We anticipated a small one. The weather was going to be bad. We didn't know what to expect. And we had people waiting up to five hours in line. And the line started at our door and went several blocks for 10 hours. And we were open from 10:00 till 9:00. And by 7:30 we could look out our door and finally see the end of the line. That night we saw 784 people in our door on the first day.
- [33:16]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Holy cow. What do you attribute that to? Is it that you have a million friends or that the word got out or that there's that much demand for romance books? What? Why would you have a five hour line?
- [33:29]
Ann
Because I think the romance readers, they are passionate about not only supporting the romance bookstores, but they know with a niche such as ours, they're going to see writers that they may not see. They're going to see books they may not see at other places that aren't niche bookstores. And so we carry a wide range of authors and sub genres. And they're passionate about supporting each other and they love it. And we've been told over and over again, y'all have really filled a place in my life that now I know I have a place I can come and not be ashamed for one to want to read these books because a lot of women are like hiding the, you know, they don't want everybody to see what they're reading. But now we have this community where they can come in and there's no judgment. If you want to read that smutty book, you just go right ahead and there's somebody here that you can talk to about it.
- [34:22]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Now, in admission, you're the first romance bookstore that we've talked to. Because neither Caitney nor I particularly read a lot of romance novels. Kate has a very strange term for romance bookstores or romance book. What are those terms, Kate?
- [34:38]
Kate
Oh, I think it's not just my term, it's everybody's term. They're bodice rippers. You know, when I was growing up, romance were the romance books were sort of the 5 and 10 impulse buys by the register and they had Fabio on the COVID and they were shiny and poofy. And romance is now, I think, this whole genre that sort of spans between sort of what we thought of romance as kids and some really, really, really great writing. It isn't just the dime store bodice rippers anymore.
- [35:12]
Ann
I totally agree. We have our bookstore has so many sub genres that we can dive into. Whether you're a sports fan, whether you're a historical fan, whether you like the dark romance, whether you like just regular contemporary stuff. There's a so many sub genres that the story isn't about just the ripped bodice. Right. There's a character in there who's growing and she's empowering herself a lot of times in the story. And that's what spoke to Darcy and I more than anything was these characters. It wasn't just about needing the man or needing that spousal partner or whatever. It was about building their own self value as part of that growth in the story. That romance is also about romanticizing yourself and that sort of thing. So we love that aspect that a lot of our writers bring to the story.
- [36:06]
Curtis Sittenfeld
When I looked at your website, I expected it would be the Plot Twist bookstore dot com. No, it's the Plot Twist Book Bar. And then I see on your website that you have drinks in the bar in your store that are specifically linked to books. What do you serve me in the bar?
- [36:26]
Ann
Oh, I love talking about this because we, we do have a bar. It's a very small bar. We're a small place, but it makes a big impact. And right now we have just mocktails waiting on our licensing to serve cocktails, beer and wine. But our mocktails are themed towards characters or tropes. And then this month's drink that we've introduced is called Cross My Heart and it's based off of our book of the Month. So it's a very bright pink, sweet and tangy drink. So yeah, all the drinks are inspired by a book or a character or a trope.
- [37:05]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Dawn Connor, thank you ever so much. The store is the plot twist in Denton, Texas, just up north of Dallas in Fort Worth. We hope you have great success as a father daughter who does a podcast. We certainly encourage parent and child to do things together and I hope it's a, I hope you have a smash success.
- [37:27]
Kate
Well, we have to put our blessing and stamp of approval on any two generation launch of business podcast television show. Two generation folks out there.
- [37:39]
Curtis Sittenfeld
Why would you be endorsing something with two generations of a family in a bookstore? Why would that occur to you?
- [37:44]
Kate
Kate because we're three years into this and we're both still alive, which I don't think was a given when we started this, but both of us are still living and breathing and we haven't killed each other. So that is a testament to mother, sons, father, daughters, you know, however raised you go out there, do something with them. It can work. A reminder about the folks who make this podcast possible and then a coda from Curtis Sittenfeld.
- [38:10]
Curtis Sittenfeld
The Bookcase with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC All Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producers are Laura Mayer and Simone Swink and we want to make mention of Taylor Rhodes, Amanda McMaster and Sabrina Colbert at Good Morning America, as well as Josh Cohan from ABC Audio. And we urge you to follow the Bookcase wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to listen, rate and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have linked them in the episode description.
- [38:43]
Charlie
One of the reasons that I love reading fiction is that I just, I think it like lets us put ourselves in other people's shoes in this very intimate way that almost nothing else does. And I think that's really like special and beautiful.
- [39:06]
Curtis Sittenfeld
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- [39:20]
Charlie
Visit your local T Mobile location or.
- [39:23]
Curtis Sittenfeld
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- [39:32]
Charlie
It expires in six months.