Danzy Senna Creates Worlds She Wants to See

Summary

Episode Title: Danzy Senna Creates Worlds She Wants to See
Release Date: October 31, 2024
Podcast: The Book Case
Hosts: Kate Gibson & Charlie Gibson

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Book Case, hosts Kate and Charlie Gibson delve into a captivating conversation with acclaimed author Danzy Senna about her latest work, "Colored Television." The discussion navigates through Senna's unique perspective on race, satire, and the creation of literary worlds that reflect underrepresented experiences.

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Exploring "Colored Television"

[01:02] Kate Gibson opens the discussion by highlighting Senna's new book, Colored Television, praising its humor and the concept Senna refers to as the "geography of her writing." She sets the stage for an in-depth exploration of how Senna crafts narratives that push readers beyond their comfort zones.

[01:37] Charlie Gibson adds, “What a brilliant satire. ... It is both provocative and funny.” She emphasizes the book’s sharp critique of societal norms, particularly around race, and its ability to entertain while provoking thought.

Themes and Satire in Senna’s Work

The conversation delves into the multifaceted satire present in Colored Television, where Senna lampoons various facets of modern life, including Hollywood, academia, the middle class, and the publishing industry.

[02:17] Charlie notes, “There’s a lot of levels of navel gazing ... everyone in it is on some level looking at themselves.” This highlights how Senna’s characters often engage in self-reflection, adding depth to the comedic elements.

Representation and Identity

A significant portion of the discussion centers on representation, particularly the portrayal of mulatto individuals—a term Senna prefers over "mixed race" to capture a broader spectrum of identity.

[03:22] Kate references Oprah Winfrey's experience of not finding herself in literature until reading Toni Morrison, drawing a parallel to Senna's mission: “Danzy Senna is making the point that somebody from a black and white marriage... are not very much reflected in books.”

[04:37] Charlie reflects on Senna’s philosophy, inspired by Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop’s essay on representation: “Imagine if Oprah Winfrey hadn't become a reader... what would that say about you trying to validate yourself as you're growing up and trying to become a reader.”

Senna’s Creative Process and Motivations

The hosts explore Senna's motivations behind creating worlds that are absent in mainstream literature.

[05:13] Danzy Senna shares, “... writing about two artists living in Los Angeles who come from different poles of their philosophies toward their art around race.” She articulates her drive to bring visibility to mulatto experiences, addressing historical erasure.

[06:24] Charlie probes further, questioning if the lack of representation in media motivated Senna to fill that void: “Is that part of your mission is to write those worlds into existence because you feel there's a hole in those content areas?” Senna confirms, emphasizing her commitment to storytelling as both a release and a mission against cultural erasure.

Layers of Satire and Self-Reflection

[10:29] The discussion deepens into the intricate layers of satire in Colored Television. Senna explains the multi-level self-reflection within her work, where characters are perpetually assessing themselves and their surroundings.

[12:36] Senna introduces her character, Hiram Cavendish, a sociologist from the 1930s, who embodies the psychological tensions of being mulatto in a binary culture. She states, “... the positionality of being in a binary culture and not being either or.” However, she balances this with humor and resilience, illustrating the multifaceted nature of mixed-race identities.

Humor as a Tool for Critique

Despite tackling serious themes, Senna infuses her narrative with humor, making her critiques more impactful and relatable.

[14:13] When asked about the enjoyment of satirizing various societal elements, Senna responds, “It was really fun. ... I wanted to kind of keep over and over again adding these levels of looking within.” Her approach ensures that satire remains engaging without being overly didactic.

Writing Craft and Process

The episode also touches upon Senna’s writing methodology, offering listeners insights into her creative process.

[15:16] Senna discusses her approach to plotting, explaining how she sets goal points for her narratives without rigid outlines, allowing her subconscious to guide the story organically.

[16:30] She elaborates on the concept of plagiarism within Colored Television, highlighting the blurred lines of idea ownership in creative industries: “... who owns an identity, who owns a territory, a material.”

Constructing Compelling Beginnings

The importance of a strong start in novels is a key takeaway from Senna’s narrative strategy.

[18:27] Senna outlines how she establishes her protagonist’s pressure points early on, creating a foundation for character development and plot progression: “... the sense of her dislocation in Los Angeles... feeling lost in a city.”

[20:32] The hosts commend Senna's ability to intertwine personal experiences with broader societal observations, making her storytelling both intimate and universally resonant.

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Conclusion

Danzy Senna's Colored Television emerges as a poignant and humorous exploration of mulatto identities and the complexities of modern life. Through sharp satire and deeply personal narratives, Senna not only entertains but also challenges readers to reflect on representation and identity. Kate and Charlie Gibson skillfully guide listeners through Senna's creative world, shedding light on the importance of diverse voices in literature.

Notable Quote:

Danzy Senna at [01:37]: “... I want to create the world I want to keep in my writing... there are other people out there looking for themselves in a book.”

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This episode serves as a compelling invitation to venture beyond conventional genres, urging readers to embrace stories that broaden their literary horizons while enriching their understanding of diverse experiences.

Transcript

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[Danzy Senna]

Foreign.

[Kate Gibson]

Welcome back to the Bookcase. It is once again the dynamic duo. Not talking about Batman and Robin, but Kate Gibson and Charlie Gibson. It is the Bookcase with Kate and Charlie.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yes, it's a, it's, it's not an action filled, it's not a huge action filled duo, but we drive the bookmopeo. We have capes, we wear reading glasses, we take a while to get where we're going, but we always bring a great love of literature with us. We are a dynamic duo. Kind and hello.

[Kate Gibson]

We have a very full show for you today. Our author of the day is Danzy Senna, who has written a wonderful book called Colored Television. She writes it from a unique perspective and we'll tell you why. First of all, we love the book itself. It is very funny, but it also has what she calls the geography of her writing. And then we're also going to talk with Jay Ryan Straddle, our fourth conversation with our writer in residence. He is now well into his novel. We started with him with the novel, novel began and he's now well into it. But first, Colored Television. Both of us loved this book.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yeah, what a brilliant satire. And I think there's a lot of bad satire out there. There's satire that maybe doesn't make you laugh or a satire that goes for the cheap laughs and doesn't make you think. This book, I think, is both provocative and funny. And that's an. And it's largely about race. So you can easily picture how it can be provocative but funny. And yes, it is. It's very funny. And it's skew viewers. So many things. I mean, there's a, it would be hard to keep a running list of all of the satire that she hits in this book. But it's really, it's well written. The plot is a page turner. I really enjoyed this book.

[Kate Gibson]

Yeah. She satirizes everything from the Kardashians to academia to middle class life to, you name it, and the publishing industry and Hollywood, very much satirizing Hollywood. But she herself is the product of a marriage of black and white and she uses the term mulatto, not mixed race, because she said that's a much broader category. But she wants to write her existence, in effect. We go back to our first podcast when we talked to Oprah Winfrey, who said she never got into reading before she found people like her in books. Until then, she'd just been looking, she said, for all she could hope for was somebody who was a brunette. And then she read Toni Morrison and the whole world of literature came alive for her. Danzi Senna is making the point that somebody from a black and white marriage, those kinds of people, mulattoes, are not very much reflected in books. And she wants to find herself in her own writing.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yeah, I think it's. She said at one point, and I asked her about this, that she wants to create the world she wants to keep in her writing. She wants to keep creating the world in which she exists, which means she hasn't seen it, and she really feels like she's exploring it in a new way. And that's, I think, a theme that you keep coming back to in great literature, that writers are. That some great writers don't find themselves in books and say, boy, I really want to share my story, because I bet there are other people out there looking for themselves in a book. It goes back to a great essay by A woman named Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop, who wrote a. An amazing essay about sliding glass doors and mirrors and windows and how important it is to go back to your point. Imagine if Oprah Winfrey hadn't become a reader. And she picks up I Know why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou, and she's a reader and she changed the world with her reading. And so imagine if you couldn't find yourself in a book, what that would say about you trying to validate yourself as you're growing up and trying to become a reader. So I love that. That's a philosoph of her writing.

[Kate Gibson]

Well, you're right. She opens the window for us to see her world and has a mirror for herself of her own world as she writes. But that's the backdrop of the book and the plot. It's just plain funny. I love particularly the. The lampooning of Hollywood, but it starts with a marriage between a struggling artist and a struggling novelist, and it takes off from there. Our conversation with Danzy Senna about colored television.

[Charlie Gibson]

Danzi Senna, it is such a pleasure. It's an honor to have you in the bookcase. We are a big fan of this book, Color Television. Let's start There I read that you wrote, I suppose I'm trying to write my world into existence with each new book. And so I wanted to ask you what you meant by that and how you did that here in color television.

[Danzy Senna]

Yeah, and I'm so happy to be here as well. I did writing as a child, but I think I was always, from every book I've written, seeing something that's not in the public eye or in the culture, a sort of mirror being reflected back at me. That is the world I live in. And, you know, that can be being of mixed race, which is the most sort of invisible group in American, in the conversation of America, and the most erased. And I think it can also be just writing about sort of two artists living in Los Angeles who come from different poles of their philosophies toward their art around race. And these are just worlds I live in that I don't see. So I'm trying to write them into existence.

[Charlie Gibson]

Do you feel like it's a detriment that you haven't seen those worlds up until this point? The first interview, for instance, that we did was with Oprah Winfrey, who said, I didn't become reader until I saw myself in a book. And up until that point, I was just looking for brunettes. That was the best I could come to. Is that part of your mission is to write those worlds into existence because you feel there's a hole in those content areas?

[Danzy Senna]

Yeah. I mean, it's a compulsion to be a writer. And I've done it since I was very little. And so I think part of it is that I love stories and disappearing into stories. Because you sort of live two lives when you're a writer. You get to be thinking about, you know, the family in this book, even as you're dealing with your real family. And that's a kind of release. But I think also just, you know, the sense of erasure, the sense of invisibility, that was always there for me growing up was part of the inspiration to be a writer. It's like the caveman, you know, writing something on a wall. You're sort of human instinct to try to fill in those gaps. And if you're a writer, that's how you do it.

[Interviewer]

So looking at your body of work, this theme of being mulatto, and you very carefully use the word mulatto as opposed to mixed race, because mixed race is a much wider category. But mulatto, black and white, you have tended to write about that. I remember when I was hosting Good Morning America and we Talked to Norman Mailer one day and I remember him saying to me, you know, a writer only has so many things to say and he will spend. He said, I've spent my life just saying those things. He said he had only two, but I presume there's more. But it's a finite number. What is it that you want readers to hear you say in, in your body of work?

[Danzy Senna]

I don't sort of come to it with like a polemic or a prescriptive idea. So it's, it's about a story, first and foremost, which is not a kind of editorial idea, but, you know, and the mixed race experience is actually what I consider the geography of my work. It's not the, the theme. I'm not writing, in a sense, about what it is to be mixed race. It is that those people are mixed race. And so it is their vantage point, which I think is an important distinction for me, as much as, you know, another writer would write from the Midwest about white characters from the Midwest who are Episcopal. That's his geography. My geography is this world of people who are black and white and live in that space, that liminal space.

[Interviewer]

But I look at your work and think, she's saying, I want these people, I want mulattoes to be seen. It's about identity. It is about having readers see them the same way. As Katie just said, Oprah Winfrey couldn't find herself in a book until, until she read Toni Morrison. And so, yeah, you may start with that as your structure, as your geography, but it does seem to me that you are saying very much, I want these people to be seen. I want them to have their individual identity.

[Danzy Senna]

Yeah, well, historically, the, the biracial character in fiction in America, the black, white, biracial has been reduced to certain types. So when I started writing in the 90s, I wanted to write a story that was a complex, real portrayal of the mixed race experience that had not been represented in 50, 60 years, as far as I could tell, and had been explicitly buried from the first mixed race person born in this plantations. You know, we have been explicitly erased from the narrative. So it's, it's a real mission in terms of my work. You know, all these six books have been trying to fill in this gap.

[Charlie Gibson]

I heard you say in a PBS interview. The interview was talking about the levels of sort of navel gazing that go into this book. You are mulatto. You're writing a mulatto narrator. And she in turn is writing a comedy for Hollywood about mulatto. So I, I was like, yeah, there is lots of levels of navel gazing. So do you think of navel gazing as healthy or unhealthy or both?

[Danzy Senna]

I think it's inevitable if you're a writer and you should just lean into it and at least acknowledge that that's what you're doing. I mean, I find that this is a very, hopefully your experience of it. A very comic novel. And the joke is so much on other writers and on myself. They're living in a house that has no windows looking out and it's got all glass interior, so even the house is looking in at itself. And so I wanted to kind of keep over and over again adding these levels of, of looking within. And even her son, who's, you know, on the spectrum, possibly like the, the doctor says, you know, he's too transfixed by the contours of his own mind. So everyone in it is in some level looking at themselves.

[Interviewer]

I love the fact that almost everything in the book is mixed. They even have a labradoodle, perfect dog to have for somebody in a, in a biracial mar. Marriage. But what was interesting to me is you created an expert. You created somebody who didn't exist, who writes about being a mulatto so that you, I thought as a reader, could express your feelings. Hiram Cavendish, I think, was his name. And he argues that the mulatto in America would remain poised between worlds in psychological uncertainty and other, even amongst others. That's very poignant to me. It says, we're not anything. This is your situation. How do you feel about that? Do you believe. Do you agree with Hiram Cavendish, who you created? Oh, yeah.

[Danzy Senna]

I created this white man from the 30s who's a sociologist whose life's work is to understand the mulatto. And he was based on a lot of people I had read. And I just wanted to have fun with it and do it in my own way. But also, as you said, there's something true about some of the things he's saying. Even as he pathologizes mixed people, there's a real truth to what he's pointing out about the positionality of being in a binary culture and not being either or. But to me, it's not sad. It's not. I've been talking to a lot of mixed race people on this book tour and, you know, we all talk about there's a lot of privileges we have that we have to acknowledge and there's a lot of hilarity in being mixed. And it's not this sort of Thing that he portrays solely on tragic terms. There's a multiplicity to the experience as there is to any other identity. And for me, it's just been the vantage point at which I feel. It's a gift to me as a writer to be mixed. It's like a very powerful position to be in, to be able to look at the world from the other amongst other positions.

[Interviewer]

This book is downright funny. We've been talking about serious things here, but it's downright funny. You satirize. And I just made a list. You tell me if I'm missing anything. You satirize Hollywood, you satirize academia, middle class aspirations. But it seems to me these are sort of all overlays that you had fun doing as you wrote the book, correct?

[Danzy Senna]

No, it was really fun. And I have a writing group and so much of my women writers in la and so much of my job every time we met was to give them something that would really just like, make them laugh very hard. And they're so close to me and know my. My life. They know everyone. I'm satirizing in this book. And so you're always hoping that it'll then translate to those outer circles. And it's been really gratifying to see that so many people from so many worlds, not just my Los Angeleno writer women friends, got the joke of this book.

[Charlie Gibson]

I wanted to ask you about whether or not you're sort of a plotter. Do you know everything you're gonna write before you write it, or are you a seat of the pants writer? And the reason I want to ask is I'm gonna ask sort of a cheap question for an interviewer, which is I don't want to give away the ending, but the ending really stays with me. And it's a. It's a unique ending. So did you have the ending in mind when you were writing it, or is it one of those things where you're like, oh, now I know how to end this?

[Danzy Senna]

I don't plot explicit, like in an outline, but I do often, when I begin a novel, have sort of goal points that I know I want to get to, and they're sort of scenes, and I won't give anything away. But I knew that I wanted to have a nursing home toward the end of the novel. I knew there was a nursing home and a family living space that I wanted to portray. And so I didn't know how I was going to get there, but I had a sense of sort of the ride would have to lead there And I also had. I do this thing of sort of planting suspenseful, mysterious things in a novel. And I don't. I like not knowing why they're there. For instance, her friend, whose house they're subletting keeps calling her and she won't pick up the phone because she's got some conflicted feelings about him and the whole novel. I kept him calling and her not picking up, but I didn't know what he was calling to say and sort of leaving. Little things like that are really fun for me as a novelist. But I like my subconscious to do some of this work when I'm writing that first draft and then see what my subconscious has kind of planted in the text.

[Charlie Gibson]

You're right, because the friend, for me, was the source of huge tension in the book. But then he returns and you're like, oh, that was sort of a MacGuffin. Like it kept the tension going. But then you get there and you're like, but it's funny because at one point I even as a reader started questioning my definition of plagiarism. Because like, at one point I thought to myself, but what did she really plagiarize other than a word? And so I even got to, you know, when I was examining the concept of ownership and authentic voice, I even started reexamining my definition of plagiarism, which I always thought of as a sort of black and white issue.

[Danzy Senna]

Exactly. No, that was one of the things I was really interested in. It was that gray area, because there's so many gray areas in this book. And that's one of them is who owns an identity, who owns a territory, a material. And in Hollywood, you know, it's really gray. And so much of this town runs on people pitching an idea, but it's not written down, it's just spoken into the air. And then you see it six months later on television and you're like, well, was that my idea or was that their experience? And this town really runs on that kind of low key thievery.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

One of the things that we have been fascinated by as we've talked to authors and this has become sort of a master class in writing, is the beginning. How important the beginning is, how critical it is to pulling somebody into the book. In this age when attention spans are so short and you write a novel begins with a character in a stable but flawed life, an unhappy marriage, a dead end job. The novel hinges on the inciting incident, something to destabilize your character, your character's life in the first 30 pages. So what did you feel really was going to draw me in in colored television?

[Danzy Senna]

I don't remember saying that. It sounds very official.

[Charlie Gibson]

You're like, damn, I'm a writer.

[Interviewer]

It's on page 99.

[Danzy Senna]

Okay, I didn't even remember that. So that's Jane speaking. That's the teacher in her.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Danzy Senna]

So I mean, with this novel, I begin with if a character has enough pressure points on them and you want to lead them to doing something sort of desperate, you want to establish those pressure points. And this novel begins with her at the playground with her son who's been diagnosed with something. And we don't know what it is, but we know we can guess. And he's sort of neuro atypical. And I wanted that to be established because that can create a pressure point for her. But also, you know, the fact that she hasn't finished this novel. She's 10 years into writing it, but she's on the edge of finishing it. And a sense of her dislocation in Los Angeles, you know, the first line is that she, she doesn't, I think it's like she doesn't know that it's February. She wouldn't know it's February. And I've had that experience in LA so many times of being like, wait, what season is this? I had this recently. It's blazing hot today and I don't know whether it's summer or spring or winter. And I come from the East Coast. And that feeling of displacement and feeling lost in a city was what I kind of wanted to establish on a literal level.

[Interviewer]

I love so much of this that she was writing the, the mulatto war and peace that she wanted to live in a multicultural Mayberry. I think some of those phrases are, are really wonderful.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

We're going to ask you if you would to pause for a few moments while we think up some rapid fire questions.

[Kate Gibson]

Stancy.

[Interviewer]

And we'll be back in a moment. We thank you ever so much for being with us.

[Charlie Gibson]

Thank you so much.

[Danzy Senna]

Thank you.

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[Interviewer]

So some rapid fire questions for Danzy, Senna, Dickens or Shakespeare?

[Danzy Senna]

Dickens for sure.

[Kate Gibson]

Why?

[Danzy Senna]

I think just the American. Well, not American, but the comedy of it. I would say there's more comedy that I recognize and that resonates with me.

[Charlie Gibson]

Is there a book in class? Oh, that's true too. Is there a book that ends up on your syllabus no matter what you're teaching? And if so, what is it?

[Danzy Senna]

I think one of the most perfect novels, craft wise of the 20th century, is J.M. ketsey's disgrace. And I study it as a perfect novel.

[Interviewer]

In terms of craft writing, is it a joy or a task?

[Danzy Senna]

It's mostly a task with sort of moments of joy that enable you to continue.

[Interviewer]

Is writing a gift or is it something that can be good writing? Is it a gift or can it be acquired?

[Danzy Senna]

I would say it's. There's an origin in a gift, but if you don't have discipline and resilience, you can't do anything with that gift, like most arts.

[Interviewer]

But it. It starts with the gift.

[Kate Gibson]

Yeah.

[Danzy Senna]

And the compulsion maybe is more the word gift and compulsion.

[Charlie Gibson]

When you finish writing a book, how do you celebrate? Or do you celebrate? Or do you just stick your head in a bucket for 24 hours?

[Danzy Senna]

I usually binge television after finishing a novel which fits with this novel.

[Charlie Gibson]

How about three writers that you will read just because they wrote it?

[Danzy Senna]

So that would be contemporary writers.

[Charlie Gibson]

Any.

[Interviewer]

Any writer.

[Danzy Senna]

I would read Joan Didion, James Baldwin.

[Interviewer]

Is there a writer who intimidates you?

[Danzy Senna]

Who intimidates me?

[Interviewer]

It's just so good that you think, oh my goodness, I could never do that.

[Danzy Senna]

Well, I always say Toni Morrison cannot be taught as a craft exercise because it's a level of. She's working on such a sort of high level that there's nothing to imitate that you wouldn't do really badly.

[Interviewer]

The last book you bought and did you pay retail?

[Danzy Senna]

I did pay retail. I bought Message by Ta Nehisi Coates. And of course he doesn't need my money, but I was just in a store. And I bought it because I was curious to read it, and it had been in the either, so I thought I should actually read it instead of listening to all the noise about it.

[Interviewer]

Danzy Senna, thank you again. Wonderful to have you here.

[Kate Gibson]

Dan Zena, the book Colored Television, and there's just. It's just filled with juicy quotes that. That make you laugh.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yeah, absolutely. I. We were talking about the skewering of Hollywood. At one point, I. Her husband says to her with a, you know, complete deadpan delivery, never assume anything in Hollywood is ironic. That's your first mist. And I love that line because it's so true. Hollywood is one of those places where you're looking at people going, you're putting me on. Right? You're not putting me on. Oh, okay.

[Kate Gibson]

All right. To Jay Ryan Straddle, our writer in residence, who has been so kind to talk to us as he develops his fourth novel. The first three having been very successful. And in the past, he's been talking to us about the fact that he needed to write sort of a foundation for his book, which is going to be about a life envisioned for his mom, who died when she was 55, who was responsible for his being a writer, and he wants to write the life that she might have lived.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yeah. And he spent a lot of time just doing a lot of background writing. I think how much background writing he has done has really surprised him. So if you've stayed with this series since the beginning, what you're going to hear that's new in this conversation, I think, is he's farther along. But also I think he's going to talk about how he's matured a little bit as a writer. It's not just bringing the character to 55 that's important to him. It's making sure that all of the writing serves the story. And as a result, he's throwing out almost heartlessly, like, I love this guy so much. He's talking about how much he loves his writing, but he's also balling it up and throwing it in the garbage can without too much weeping over it. And I think that shows how he's maturing into his fourth novel. I'm really impressed with all of the writing that has ended up up in the garbage can.

[Kate Gibson]

He says it's the best writing he's ever done, and it's not going to make the book, but it. It does set the foundation for his characters when he starts. Peggy, who is the character who represents his mom when she starts at the age of 55. That's where the novel will start. Or really when he gets into the flow of the novel, because he now says he's beginning to hit periods of sort of maximum productivity.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yeah. And it's. Again, this is. I love that he is having the courage to take this journey with us. I am learning so much. You know, we talk about. We talk about the writing process a lot on this show. So to have a front row seat and for this writer to have the courage to talk to us about his developmental process has really been a treat. So I hope you've stayed with us. And now our fourth conversation with the wonderful and warm J. Ryan Straddle. J. Ryan Straddle, our writer in residence, time number four to talk about your residency at the bookcase, which I know you take very seriously. So I'd love to know.

[Interviewer]

It's the first time I've heard you.

[Kate Gibson]

Sing an introduction, by the way.

[Charlie Gibson]

That was sort of an introduction. Yeah. And. And, ooh, I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do you one better than that, which is, I'm gonna make my AP English teacher flip out and roll over in her grave. I'm going to end a sentence with a preposition as a Minnesotan would. Jay Ryan, tell us where you're at.

[Jay Ryan Straddle]

As of today, I'm on page 74 and word number 20,228. That's the hard data of where I'm at. But where I'm at in terms of intangibles is. Last time we spoke, I had been talking a lot about how long it took for my character to get to age 55, how I had. I burdened myself with a lot of preface, a lot of backstory. That's pretty much all gone. The three chapters I was thinking about cutting, I did cut. I combined them into one chapter. I'm trying to figure out how to end that chapter, but I basically took 55 pages and made 18 pages out of it. Then my first chapter, which I had worked on for close to three months on and off, while working on other chapters, but kept going back to this chapter and, man, my opening chapter of the prologue, I got to where I could bounce a dime off of it. This was probably the most. I'm trying to think of an adjective, not sophisticated, but the most well thought out prose I've ever written in my life. And I cut the chapter because it does not set up the novel well enough.

[Kate Gibson]

Wow.

[Jay Ryan Straddle]

It was just a total failure in what it was supposed to do. So, yeah, I look upon it like that, like this is a wonderful piece of writing that has absolutely no home in this book.

[Charlie Gibson]

How do you know that this isn't working? I need to retool it and put it.

[Kate Gibson]

But does it break your heart when you have to get rid of something.

[Interviewer]

Which you're so pleased with?

[Jay Ryan Straddle]

I mean, I could have retrofitted it. I retconned my work all the time. But in this case, I just felt like, no, this is the SNCC narrative. This was me educating myself about my characters. I learned a lot more about them from having written that chapter. But I finally came to the decision that it wasn't anything the reader needed to know.

[Kate Gibson]

That's an interesting statement. I learned more about them by what I'd written. You're crafting characters as you write, not realizing that as your prose comes together, so does the nature of the character come together. That's interesting to me.

[Jay Ryan Straddle]

Oh, thanks. Yeah. I tend to view each successive sentence I write as a sense that precludes other options. So as I proceed through the narrative, I'm winnowing my possibilities. I'm creating a structure for which these characters to thrive and learn. But as such, they also become more circumscribed elements within this narrative. They become more specific, which also makes them stronger and more distinct to the reader. So as they proceed, I'm winnowing my choices of what I can do with them, but I'm also trying to set up possibilities that are consistent with what we know about them already.

[Charlie Gibson]

So is it pretty standard that you start getting into the heart of the novel and then realizing how much has to be kicked to the curb of how much you've already written? Or is that specific because this character starts at such an older age?

[Jay Ryan Straddle]

Great question. I think with my earlier books, especially my second two, Lager Queen and Supper Club, I was quite a bit farther into the draft or maybe even completed a draft before I started thinking about what wasn't working. And as such, I did a lot of heavy editing with those two books. With this one, I want a tighter first draft. I want a first draft that is less like five Bags of Groceries with the dinner in there somewhere. It's kind of what the first draft of my first two books were each like. And that's what I want. I want the first draft to be well under 100,000 words and. And hopefully under 300 pages. I want a really tight first draft. And so I'm editing as I go a lot more. So that's a huge change in my process. But in doing so, I'M still trying to give myself the freedom and latitude to explore. I feel like, I don't know, I'm enjoying it right now this way, but I can't wait to get to a point where I'm just running downhill where I realize, oh, I've got these characters figured out and now they're just telling me what to do. I'm very close to that.

[Kate Gibson]

To remind our listeners, this book is about your mom.

[Jay Ryan Straddle]

Yeah, yeah. That's the starting point.

[Kate Gibson]

Who died at the age of 55.

[Jay Ryan Straddle]

That's right.

[Kate Gibson]

And as you've said to us in the past, this is about conjuring up, creating the world that she could have lived after she was. After she was 55. So do you know now where you're going to go with that?

[Jay Ryan Straddle]

I do. I have a pretty strong sense of it. I don't know if I'm ready to talk about it. Maybe I will once I've written it down. But one of my favorite chapters I've written so far is the one where she goes to California for the first time. And I have it somewhat mirror the time that I first came to California in the late 90s. She came out maybe a year or two after I moved out there, and she was pleasantly overwhelmed by it. And I kind of want to capture that sense of it. Yeah.

[Charlie Gibson]

Pleasantly overwhelming. I don't think I've ever heard LA quite described that way before. You said something interesting, which is, I'm looking forward to the moment where I'm running downhill and it's all flowing naturally and I can. How do you sense that you're coming up on that point? How do you know that you're right on the cusp of running downhill? What is it, as a writer that tells me.

[Jay Ryan Straddle]

That's a great question, because I've done it before. I've felt it before. That kind of runner's high of just having the writing propelling itself and. Yeah, I just. You know it when you're in it. And I've come close a few times. The first six months of writing a book are the most difficult. Six months, then. Yeah. Once it builds some momentum and I know the characters and I know where they're going, it gets easier.

[Kate Gibson]

All right, Jay Ryan, we will keep track. We wish you well. This is exciting to have a sense as you go along as to what.

[Interviewer]

The mindset of a writer is.

[Kate Gibson]

And I wish your mom the best. And you too.

[Jay Ryan Straddle]

Oh, thank you. Thanks, Charlie. Thanks, Kate.

[Charlie Gibson]

You too.

[Kate Gibson]

Jay Ryan straddle now, hitting his stride in his fourth novel as yet unnamed, but a novel written with such an interesting idea. Creating a life for his mom, who he so dearly loved. Creating a life for his mom, the life that she might have lived if she had lived past the age of 55 when she unfortunately passed away.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to reading this book. Of course, I love all of Jay Ryan's books, but it really will be fascinating to read, to read the book that we have heard about him every.

[Kate Gibson]

Step of the way.

[Charlie Gibson]

I know, I know.

[Kate Gibson]

I feel like I'm deeply involved in the writing process as he has talked to us and struggled with the beginnings that he's now very pleased with what he wrote now at the beginning, having written and rewritten it. And then he's going to throw it away. It's just.

[Charlie Gibson]

I mean, but it's an amazing thing to be able to do, to say, I love that so much and I'm going to throw it away and not. And still not be a completely neurotic person. But he's somehow pulling all that off. It's really interesting, our pressy that Jay Ryan in some ways oppressi to the conversation we're gonna have next week. I'm so excited about the conversation we're gonna have next week, and so are you. We're gonna be talking to the great, the fabulous Ann Patchett.

[Kate Gibson]

Well, certainly so well regarded in the literary community. Ann Patchett is going to be with us. She has written what I think is such a valuable book, and she really didn't write it. It's her old book, Bel Canto, which is the book that brought her into the. I think into the national conversation as being such a gifted writer. But she has now annotated the book and given you in the margins exactly what she was thinking as she wrote her highs and her lows. Many of these annotated notes are, I would never write this today. Oh, my goodness. What I was thinking. It's a fascinating insight to an author just as it is to talk to Jay Ryan as he develops this novel. This is sort of a piece because she is annotating her own book. And I don't know of any author who has done that to the extent that she has with this book. Bel Canto. The annotated Bel Canto.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yeah. It's certainly not page by page. And not only is she tough on herself, but also sometimes you get the sense that the notes in the margin are like, oh, hey, I'm not bad at this. And I like that there are those notes in there too. Of course, she says it better than, oh, hey, I'm not bad at this, but. But I think there again, you get to experience the highs and lows of Anne the writer in her maturity now sort of witnessing the highs and lows of Anne the writer when she wrote this book. So what an incredible journey. What a spectrum to get to see. I'm so looking forward to that conversation. So a reminder about the great folks who make this podcast possible and then a coda from Dany Senna.

[Kate Gibson]

The Bookcase with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. Our executive producers are Laura Mayer and Simone Swink. We want to acknowledge Taylor Rhodes, Amanda McMaster and Sarah Russell at Good Morning America and Josh Kohan, Asal Asanipour, Meg Fierro and Amira Williams at ABC Audio. Our editor this week was Terry Gray, and we want to give an extra measure of thanks to him.

[Danzy Senna]

I think just to think about the seriousness of comedy and the George Orwell idea that every joke is a tiny revolution and the way that comedy can change us, I think is important.