The Book Case: Jeffrey Toobin Examines The Presidential Pardon

Release Date: February 20, 2025

Hosts: Charlie Gibson & Kate Gibson
Guest: Jeffrey Toobin, legal analyst and author of The Pardon

Introduction to the Episode

In this engaging episode of The Book Case, hosts Charlie and Kate Gibson welcome legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin to discuss his latest work, The Pardon. The conversation delves into the intricate history and contemporary implications of the presidential pardon power, with a particular focus on Gerald Ford's controversial pardon of Richard Nixon in 1974.

Overview of Jeffrey Toobin’s The Pardon

Jeffrey Toobin introduces his book, The Pardon, which meticulously examines President Gerald Ford's decision to pardon former President Richard Nixon after the Watergate scandal. Toobin emphasizes the book's relevance to both history enthusiasts and those intrigued by political maneuvers at the highest levels of government.

Jeffrey Toobin (02:07): "We made a decision early in the podcast that we don't have any desire to debate political issues through nonfiction. That's not the nonfiction we do. But I really enjoyed this book almost in the same way I enjoyed The Situation Room by George Stephanopoulos last year."

The Presidential Pardon Power: Historical Context and Significance

Kate Gibson provides historical context, tracing the presidential pardon power back to the Founding Fathers. She highlights Alexander Hamilton's role in ensuring that the President retains broad pardon authority as a check against potential executive overreach.

Kate Gibson (03:35): "They did not want a king to lead the executive branch of the government. They wanted restrictive powers on the executive, with one exception—the pardon power."

Jeffrey elaborates on the dual nature of the pardon power:

Jeffrey Toobin (03:35): "Pardons can be thought of as a necessary out for a President in extreme situations of injustice. Or you could look at it as a loophole so big that you could drive a train through it."

This duality underscores the tension between using pardons as instruments of mercy versus tools for political advantage.

Gerald Ford’s Pardon of Richard Nixon

The core of the discussion centers on Ford's pardon of Nixon, an act that significantly impacted Ford's presidency and subsequent historical interpretations.

Kate Gibson (04:26): "A lot of people believe that it cost Jerry Ford the White House in 1976, that he would not have lost to Jimmy Carter had he not pardoned Richard Nixon."

Toobin challenges this belief by presenting alternative perspectives from his research:

Jeffrey Toobin (04:26): "Two conclusions you'll hear: A, Ford was naive going into this; B, he did a terrible job of prepping the public; and C, he didn't need to do it. That's the most amazing thing."

Charlie Gibson adds depth by discussing the lack of consultation Ford had with key figures like Special Prosecutor Leon Jaworski, leading to an underprepared and poorly communicated pardon.

Charlie Gibson (16:52): "They didn't talk to Jaworski. He didn't want to prosecute Nixon, therefore the pardon was unnecessary."

Legal Implications and Executive Privilege

The conversation transitions to the broader legal implications of the pardon power, particularly in light of recent Supreme Court decisions like Trump v. United States.

Jeffrey Toobin (17:20): "The President of the United States is effectively above the law. There will never be any sort of criminal accountability for the president."

Charlie discusses how Trump v. United States redefined executive privilege, diminishing the accountability of presidents under criminal law and exacerbating concerns about the misuse of pardon power.

Charlie Gibson (28:21): "The President is unaccountable under the criminal law today, and that's a big change."

Modern Use of the Pardon Power and Its Consequences

Toobin critiques the contemporary use of the pardon power, citing examples from recent presidencies:

Jeffrey Toobin (21:08): "President Trump pardoned all of the people prosecuted by Robert Mueller... President Biden pardoned his son... This has further degraded the process."

He contrasts these actions with Barack Obama's judicious use of clemency, highlighting the potential for both positive and negative applications of the pardon power.

Charlie Gibson (23:03): "Obama did some good commutations through the Presidential Clemency Project, which was a much better use of the pardon power than what we've seen since."

Ethical Considerations and Future Outlook

The hosts and Toobin grapple with the ethical dimensions of the pardon power, questioning whether it can be reformed to prevent abuses while retaining its capacity for mercy.

Charlie Gibson (28:21): "There are too many opportunities for people to be above the law. But I still wouldn't get rid of the pardon power altogether because I believe in actual exercises of mercy."

Kate echoes the paradox of maintaining the pardon power despite its potential for misuse, emphasizing the dire need for better oversight and utilization.

Kate Gibson (29:55): "If you don't like it, change it. Well, that's not realistic, really, is it?"

Concluding Insights

The episode wraps up with reflections on the enduring impact of Ford's pardon of Nixon and the evolving nature of presidential accountability. Toobin and the hosts agree that understanding the history and implications of the pardon power is crucial for informed civic engagement.

Charlie Gibson (31:07): "It's the greatest physical possession that I have, other than the living things in our apartment. It is the thing I would take out first in the event of a fire. And it just underlines for me how much I love books and reading."

Notable Quotes

• Jeffrey Toobin (02:07): "This is really a book for you."
• Kate Gibson (03:35): "Pardons as an instrument of mercy and as an instrument of the president's political power."
• Charlie Gibson (16:52): "They didn't talk to Jaworski. He didn't want to prosecute Nixon, therefore the pardon was unnecessary."
• Jeffrey Toobin (17:20): "The President of the United States is effectively above the law."
• Charlie Gibson (28:21): "The President is unaccountable under the criminal law today, and that's a big change."
• Jeffrey Toobin (21:08): "This has further degraded the process."

Final Thoughts

The Book Case episode featuring Jeffrey Toobin provides a comprehensive exploration of the presidential pardon power, grounded in historical analysis and contemporary critique. Through insightful dialogue and expert perspectives, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the delicate balance between mercy and power in the executive branch.

Stay tuned for more insightful discussions and book explorations every Thursday on The Book Case.