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- [00:00]
John Hugo
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know.
- [00:08]
Joanne Harris
You'Re reaching the right decision makers, a.
- [00:09]
John Hugo
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- [00:37]
Charlie Gibson
Well, it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood. A beautiful day in the neighborhood. Would you be my neighbor?
- [00:44]
Kate Gibson
Oh, my God.
- [00:44]
Charlie Gibson
My apologies to Mr. Rogers. Welcome to the bookcase. I'm Charlie Gibson.
- [00:49]
Kate Gibson
I'm Kate Gibson. And you just found out why my mother and I don't sit next to my father when there's any singing involved for anything. Because any kid who just heard that beloved kids classic has gone running from the room and they don't want to be your neighbor. Hello.
- [01:06]
Charlie Gibson
I've never understood why no member of the family would sit in the same pew with me at church.
- [01:14]
Kate Gibson
It's because it was like sitting in the pew with an old car as it was starting up and revving up during the hymns is sort of what it sounded like. We have a great book for you today. It's Vien by Joanne Harris, a prequel to the Great Shakolot and its many sequels, the Strawberry Thief being one, and there are a few others. And what's great is before I let my father talk, which I rarely ever do, I get to throw him under the bus a little bit again. I always love these opportunities. I read much faster than he does. So more often than not, it's me calling him, saying, you've gotta read this book. And this one was my dad calling me and saying, you've gotta read this book. I think that's one out of 20 or one out of 30, you average or so.
- [01:58]
Charlie Gibson
Well, you mentioned that Joanne Harris was the author of Chocolat, which was such a great novel 25 years ago. Now, that introduced us to Vien and to her daughter Anouk. Although in this prequel, Vienne is pregnant with with Anouk. But Harris did write two further novels after Chocolat about Vienne and Anouk and their chocolate chops. But this prequel, this prequel is how Vienne came to be and how she learned to make irresistible chocolate concoctions. A critical thing to say, I think that people need to know. People who have read Chocolat will love this book because it tells you how Chocolat came to be. If you have not read Chocolat, this book will stand on its own. It's a charming way to learn about these characters. And I suspect if you do read this book, Vien V I A N N e, you will want to read Chocolat because it is so charming. It is such a charming novel.
- [02:53]
Joanne Harris
Yeah.
- [02:53]
Kate Gibson
And I would say that also these books have in common a certain sensuality. And by that I don't mean sexy sex. I mean, like, there's a sensuality to the way that Joanne Harris writes about chocolate and writes about food. You can. You can. You can almost touch the velvety chocolate. You can see the shiny, you know, the. The chocolate sculptures in your mind. You can almost smell the book. I mean, this. This. You know, you can smell the chocolate in the book. This. It. It engages every part of you. When Joanne Harris writes about food and specifically about chocolate, and it never gets old. Like, she must write about chocolate, like, 20 or 30 times in this book, 20 or 30 times in chocolat, and it never gets old. I could still spend hours in the shop with Vianne making various chocolate concoctions.
- [03:38]
Charlie Gibson
And you'll hear in our conversation with Joanne Harris that she doesn't particularly eat a lot of chocolate. I was amazed by that. But she does write a lot about food in this book. Not only chocolate, but Vianne gets into a cafe in Marseilles and begins to cook the recipes of the owner's deceased wife. And those recipes make a wonderful light motif in the book. I think Jay Ryan, our writer in residence, will love this book when he reads it because it is so much about food in a different way. But Joanne Harris writes, food is an art. Food engages sight and sound and texture, not just scent and taste. And food is the most elementary expression of human connection. It is love without complications. I think that's lovely.
- [04:22]
Kate Gibson
There are so many. Yeah. There are so many cultures where food is love language and so many homes where food is love language. In your case, not so much. When you make food, it's the language of. Here, look, I'm feeding you. But. And you'll maybe be full afterwards, but I think if you can do it well and you can put your heart into it, you can create some really amazing things. And it is one of those things. Like, food is like, I always love Thanksgiving. Right. It takes, like, three days to prepare, and you consume it in, like, 20 or 30 minutes. But that meal is so laden with memories and atmosphere and delicious tastes and. And it's just. And she does a beautiful job of making food laden with all of that love and emotion in these books.
- [05:08]
Charlie Gibson
There is. There are so many levels to this novel, and I really did love it. Harris writes with a wonderful light touch. It is fanciful. It is enchanting. It is. It is charming. I think just a very brief plot summary of a novel that really defies a summary. Vienne has just buried her very influential mother and migrates to Marseilles in France with. With no money. And as I mentioned, she gets a job cooking in a French cafe for Louis, using his recently deceased wife's recipes. And. And she meets Guy and Mahmud, who are starting a chocolate shop. And they are all wonderfully nuanced characters. And there are wonderfully nuanced characters I didn't mention. But as I say, there's this lightness to her writing that well. And also there's a. I'm going to talk for a while, if you don't mind. There's a. There's a bit of fantasy.
- [06:00]
Kate Gibson
I never have.
- [06:03]
Charlie Gibson
There's a bit of fantasy in the book. There's an element of magic in Vian, and underlying it all is Vian's uncertainty about belonging, whether she should follow the wind as her mother believed she should and move on from one place to another. Her mother's voice is in Vian's head. Stay too long in one place and soon you'll be rooted to the spot, helpless as a flightless bird, a gift to any predator. But Vian has found her place in Marseilles. So will she stay? Will she go? As I say, there's. There's great mysticism in all of this. I loved it. Also a character, fascinating character in the book that Vian sees and nobody else sees. There's just. There's so many layers to this. And I loved it. I loved it.
- [06:46]
Kate Gibson
I think, you know, it's a very cozy book, which to me is interesting because there's a fine line, I think, between cozy and make me want to roll my eyes and maybe get out the motion sickness bag. And I never felt that with this, it was cozy. And I'm a cynic, so to make me feel cozy is quite a feat. And Joanne Harris did it. I loved. Again, it felt like, you know, cuddling under a warm blanket and wanting to eat all the chocolates in the world.
- [07:12]
Charlie Gibson
So this novel. This novel does stand on its own. You don't need to have read Chocolate Chocolat to love it. Remember the movie? Did you see the movie with Juliette Binoche and Johnny Depp.
- [07:21]
Kate Gibson
Yes, I did see the movie. I saw the movie several times because I worked at Miramax for a while and that was when we made the film. And I, unlike you, I didn't watch the movie because I was in love with Juliet Binoche. But Johnny Depp was nothing to sneeze at either. And so, you know Johnny Depp with the guitar and the big, dark, handsome look and lots of eyeliner. It wasn't bad.
- [07:42]
Charlie Gibson
Anyway, let's get to the conversation. Enough of our prattling on. I'm just telling you I can't recommend this novel strongly enough. I loved it. I loved its sort of lightness of being. Here's our conversation with Joanne Harris.
- [08:00]
Kate Gibson
Joanne Harris, it is such a pleasure to have you in the bookcase. It's. It's just lovely to have you here. I loved this book. The first book was shock a lot. You wrote sequels after that. This is your first time going backwards. Why go backwards?
- [08:15]
Joanne Harris
I have written four books now about Fian Roche and her daughters. And they have followed my own adventures in motherhood in real time. And we have both reached a certain point. I think I left Vianne at the end of the Strawberry Thief as she had watched one of her daughters leave home and is just about to have her second daughter leave. And I think that you reach a certain age where actually it's quite important to look at where you came from before you understand where you need to go next. And I think the same was true for Jane.
- [08:50]
Charlie Gibson
Do we need to know what path their lives followed in Chocolat and subsequent novels? Or can this novel, do you think, be appreciated on its own merits? Is it a standalone? Or do we need to go on and read about Chocolat and the others?
- [09:05]
Joanne Harris
No, I think it's a standalone. It can be an entry point to that world. Or if you already know that world and you're keen to expand it, then you can do that using this book and answer some questions that the other books don't. Don't answer. I think it's entirely up to the reader to decide.
- [09:22]
Kate Gibson
What is it about chocolate that won't let you go?
- [09:25]
Joanne Harris
Well, chocolate is more than just food. Chocolate is probably the catering industry's biggest success story. It arrived to South America as a kind of mysterious, tribal concoction that nobody liked and nobody knew what to do with. And it is now everywhere. It's in every country in the world. It drives the world economy, it is political, it has huge history and folklore. It's a spiritual substance. It's a mind altering substance. And even now, nobody quite knows what the chemicals that make chocolate, chocolate actually are. Nobody has managed to synthesize those things or to properly understand why they do what they do. So it's absolutely fascinating. It's constantly giving, in terms of folklore and history and mythology, Vian's passion for chocolate and how she acquires it and who she gets it from.
- [10:19]
Kate Gibson
In this book, Vian is pregnant and she has to make lots of different choices. But one question she keeps coming back to and that other questions keep asking her is, are you Vien or are you a mother? So I wanted to ask you what that question means to you and what that question implies in the novel.
- [10:40]
Joanne Harris
Well, I think there's a lot in this book about identity, because Vian is at a point at which she is exploring who she is and where she has come from. Before that, she was a satellite for her mother, who is a mysterious character in her own right, because Vianne doesn't know anything about her. So the reader doesn't know anything about her either. But they have traveled, they've basically been on the move pretty much all of Yan's life. And she has inherited a certain way of seeing the world and interacting with people in it. And she has to decide now whether she wants to continue to be that person that her mother made her into, or whether she wants to explore some of the choices she has. And of course, because motherhood is such a big topic here, because Fianna's about to be a mother, but she doesn't know whether she's going to be a good one. She doesn't know what being a mother really means. And so some of it is about finding that out, and some of it is about trying to silence the voice of her own mother, who is constantly telling her that it's dangerous to stay, it's dangerous to make friends, it's dangerous to have human connection, that to be free, she needs to be on the move.
- [11:48]
Charlie Gibson
But one of the central questions which revolves around whether the child will change her life is whether or not she is sort of a vagabond moving as the wind will take her as her mother, Jean says to her, or whether she is somebody who should settle down. Is it the wind that will take her, or will she be somebody who can. Who can settle down? How does that question focus in her mind and in the book?
- [12:18]
Joanne Harris
Well, I think Vianne has a loyalty problem which is to do with her relationship with her mother, who has given her certain ideas about the world and about how they exist in it, who had certain ways of allowing people to perceive her and allowing people to perceive Fian, who's taught her a number of skills and who's taught her that this is how people like them get to live their lives freely, moving from place to place without putting down roots, without getting too attached to anybody, because attachment is dangerous. But there's always been this undercurrent of fear coming from Vian's mother, the idea that somebody is in pursuit, somebody who is either real or. Or metaphorical, but who will stop them from being themselves and doing what they want. Now, whether she's right in this or not is. Is absolutely in the balance. We. We don't yet know who is pursuing them, if anybody at all. But, you know, she has controlled Fian's life. She has made sure that Fian never had any friends, never even got attached to a toy for long enough for it to be a danger. And so everything has been left behind. And Vian doesn't want this for her child, but she doesn't want it to feel like a betrayal of her mother, to do things differently.
- [13:33]
Charlie Gibson
She carries her mother's tarot cards, and she says, the tarot cards tell me to run, but the recipes that I'm cooking tell me I am home. So do you feel that question is in this prequel or in all the books that you've written since been settled in Vyan's mind?
- [13:50]
Joanne Harris
I don't think the voices of our parents are ever entirely silenced. And certainly Vianne has her mother's voice in her head all the time. She's able to ignore it some of the time, but it's still a compelling voice because it's her mother. But she has other voices, too. She gets a job in a bistro in the old quarter of Marseille and links up with a man called Louis Martin, who is a widower of 20 years back, who still cooks from his wife's recipe books, which are also not just recipe books, they're also a kind of memoir of her life. And Fiam becomes involved in this. This situation, this relationship, which is partly to do with Louis processing the grief of having lost his wife. And she gets to know the voice of this woman from the recipe books who is telling her something very different to what her mother is telling her, but is equally compelling. And she, too, is a mother's voice. She is a woman who would have longed to have been a mother, but for many reasons, wasn't able to. And so this, another face of motherhood is playing out in real time as Vianne begins to understand who she is and what her options are.
- [15:01]
Kate Gibson
You made reference to the character that Vianne and her mother are fleeing and that in some ways, Vianne sort of flees for the remainder of the books, which is the man in Black. And I'm wondering if you have a fixed personage in your mind as to who the man in black is.
- [15:18]
Joanne Harris
No, I don't think so. I don't think so because Vianne doesn't know. Vianne has answered a number of questions about her early life in this book, but by no means all of them. And so we don't know if he is an actual, a real character or whether he represents authority or the church or. Or some form of authoritarian figure that her mother feared. One of Vian's fears is constantly that she will lose her child, that she'll have it taken away because she's not a fit mother, because for many reasons, she's an immigrant, she's homeless, she's got no money, she's got no papers. She is afraid that the child would be taken by the state.
- [15:58]
Kate Gibson
Then is the man in Black different from Vianne and her mother? Or do you think they represent the same thing, which is the authorities taking your child away?
- [16:09]
Joanne Harris
I don't think it's as simple as that. I think maybe that's part of it. But I think the man in black is a more archetypal figure than that, in the sense of Jung's theory of archetypes. He is the pursuer, he is the patriarchy, and he is certain individual figures within it, too. So those figures will vary depending on Vian's experience and her mother's experience. But the general vibe of him is more or less the same. It is the fear of loss, the fear of losing the freedom that they have, the fear of losing control over their lives.
- [16:46]
Charlie Gibson
I have seen the list of what you've written over the years, and you've written some pure fantasy. And there are fantastical elements in this book. What role does mysticism does fantasy play in?
- [17:01]
Joanne Harris
It's an interesting question, because I'm not sure that mysticism and fantasy are exactly the same thing. I think one is. One exists on the level of belief, which is a broad spectrum. Because, of course, a historical belief, which isn't a current belief, we call a myth or a legend, but there is still a mystical aspect of it, a spiritual aspect of it, and something which is still. Which still has utterance. We think of that as a religion. But I think that the spectrum of belief from superstition, myth, legend, to religion is actually quite an interesting interrelated. One. So there's that. I mean, I've been interested in what people believe or have believed pretty much all my life. I was brought up on myths, legends, but also fairy stories. And when we look at the narratives of the fairy tales that we have inherited, I mean, we have a very rich tradition of European folklore and fairytale which has informed pretty much all modern literature. And it is about the narratives that we choose to tell about ourselves as a people. And they are there to explain not just what we believe, but where we've come from, the things that matter to us, the things that mattered to us then hundreds of years ago, but still matter to us now. And therefore, I think the role of fantasy is more than just diversion and, you know, telling a nice story. It is effectively the secret language of the human subconscious. It is there to tease out the things that we are not able to discuss openly outside of the safe space of metaphor. So it is about the monsters that we fear, the things that we hope for, the hope that one day love will save us, that there can be a happy ending, that we can be in control of our destiny.
- [18:50]
Kate Gibson
You've spent so much time with this protagonist. You've written in her voice. As a matter of fact, this is not a novel written from multiple perspectives. This is Vianne and her voice from sort of start to finish. So you spent so much time with her. Does she still surprise you? And how did she surprise you in this book?
- [19:05]
Joanne Harris
If so, I think people always surprise us, don't they? It doesn't matter how long we've known somebody. They always have the potential to surprise. And I think this is true of fictional people just as much as it's true of real people. And it has to be, because if we are to believe in these characters, then we have to believe on some level in their reality, in the world that they inhabit. And, yeah, I was quite surprised by a lot of Vyan's backstory, because I didn't plan it out 27 years ago when I wrote Chocolat, I just thought, right, this is a story. Basically, this is a Western. This is a story about a woman with no name who comes into a village, picks a fight with the man in the black hat, creates a showdown, and then leaves. There will be no other stories about her, and we will never know where she came from. End of it didn't quite work out that way. Over the years, I found that Vian kept returning to me with other stories and more details of her life until eventually it wasn't tenable anymore. For her to have no past. But, yeah, I mean, that's basically how it happened. So, yeah, a lot of things surprised me about Fian initially. What really surprised me was the fact that she knows nothing about chocolate. When the book starts, I'm always surprised.
- [20:23]
Charlie Gibson
By that answer, because that character is your creation. You're doing this. So how can you surprise yourself through the means of a character?
- [20:36]
Joanne Harris
Do you find that your children surprise you from time to time? This is certainly true of me.
- [20:40]
Kate Gibson
No, I'm completely predictable in every way.
- [20:44]
Joanne Harris
I think that our characters surprise us because we can surprise ourselves. And this is always. There are always psychological resources in human beings that can come as a surprise. I mean, I'm not talking here about the facts of things which we may or may not be aware of, but I'm talking about the emotional resources, the. The way that people react in unexpected situations that they've never met before. We can never be quite sure how those. Those things are going to affect us, how grief is going to affect us, how love is going to affect us. And I think the same is true with. With imaginary people. I think, you know, the idea that the author is fully in control of their character. I mean, conceptually, it's slightly problematic because there has to be a suspension of disbelief with an author, because we have to, at least on some level, believe that the person we are writing about is real. Because if we constantly look inwards and go, this person isn't real. I am making them up. Therefore I'm in complete control. Then we find that a rounded character initially becomes a flat, predictable character, which isn't what you want in a story.
- [22:00]
Kate Gibson
I'm always fascinated when authors read their own audiobooks. Was that something you wanted to do or something they asked you to do? And what is the experience like recording your own words for a larger audience?
- [22:12]
Joanne Harris
Well, I've recorded a lot of audiobooks now. Yeah, I started doing that about 10 years ago. I started with shorter books. And I guess they must have liked it because they keep asking me to do it now. And I think with certain voices, it's easier for the author to record their own audiobook. I mean, there are just some practical things here. What does the song sound like that she sings to her child? How does the music to that go? How do you pronounce these names, but also two more interpretative aspects of it. How would you phrase this? How would you deliver this phrase? And I love audiobooks. I love audiobook readers. But as soon as you give a book to another reader who didn't write the book, then you're getting an interpretation of what the author thought. If you get the author reading it, assuming the author is willing and happy to read and sounds okay when they're reading, then you will get a direct line to how the author formulated that sentence, what rhythm it was supposed to have, what sounds were supposed to be emphasized in there. And because I'm a musician as well as a linguist, to me those things are quite important.
- [23:27]
Charlie Gibson
One of the quotes that very much struck me, my skill, my mother always said, was to see not what people are, but what they need. And yet it seems to me that she's a whole lot better at addressing the needs of others and what they may need than she is to resolving her own needs. Fair.
- [23:46]
Joanne Harris
No, you're absolutely right. This is her, her flaw as a character. And she completely fails to see it. She is very empathic, as you said. She is extremely good at seeing what other people need. Whether that is mysticism and magic or whether it is a very human kind of empathy is left more or less to the reader to decide. But she is absolutely terrible at self scrutiny, looking at what she needs. And she is constantly lost on that side of things. And I think she feels uncomfortable thinking about herself. I think she's much happier when she's thinking about other people.
- [24:21]
Kate Gibson
Isn't that funny? I think you just perfectly described my father.
- [24:24]
Joanne Harris
Ah, well, lots of people are like this.
- [24:27]
Kate Gibson
No, I. I doubt you are. You are insanely good at listening. You are an incredibly active listener. You always know what people are looking for, what they need, what sort of ear they need when you're listening. But self awareness is.
- [24:43]
Charlie Gibson
Well, Joanna. Well, welcome to Charlie. Welcome to Charlie Gibson on the couch.
- [24:49]
Joanne Harris
I take no responsibility for this family therapy session.
- [24:56]
Charlie Gibson
One of the lines that I loved is that you wrote in the acknowledgments. You said, my thanks to Vyond, wherever whoever she may be. Her story isn't over yet, but at least I know how it begins. And you do that in this book. But does her story go on?
- [25:15]
Joanne Harris
Oh, I think it does, yes. I mean, whether I will get to tell it in any form, I really don't know because generally I leave quite long gaps between these installments in her life because I feel that because we are growing and gaining experience at about the same speed and moving through the world in real time, I actually need to gain more experiences to be able to understand hers. I don't think any story is ever completely over. But you know, whether I get to tell her story or the story of her daughters or even the story of her mother retrospectively, I really don't know. Give me five years or so and I'll tell you then.
- [25:54]
Charlie Gibson
Thank you very much for talking to us. It's a delight. It's a delight as this book is and shakalat. I haven't seen it and I was supposed to go back before we talked and look at it again. I haven't done it yet. I will soon. But I love that movie and I loved the book and I loved the lightness of feeling in this book and in that movie and in Shaka La, the book itself. It's a wonderful skill that you have to be able to convey that.
- [26:19]
Kate Gibson
Plus, as I recall, you were deeply in love with Juliette Binoche.
- [26:23]
Charlie Gibson
Well, that's beside the point.
- [26:25]
Joanne Harris
I'm so pleased it resonated with you. I mean, it comes as a tremendous surprise, but also quite a humbling experience to see that after all this time. These characters from this little book that wasn't seen as commercial or saleable by anybody just seem to have got so much traction and so much affection from readers. It's a wonderful thing.
- [26:45]
Charlie Gibson
And Joanne will ask you to stand by for some rapid fire questions. Foreign I'm Christian McCaffrey, pro running back.
- [26:57]
Kate Gibson
And Abercrombie is an official fashion partner of the NFL.
- [27:00]
Charlie Gibson
I'm not kidding when I say NFL.
- [27:02]
Kate Gibson
By Abercrombie broke the Internet last year.
- [27:04]
Charlie Gibson
And I think this season's lineup is even cooler.
- [27:07]
Kate Gibson
And so does my wife who keeps stealing all my hoodies. Stay fit for the season and Abercrombie's newest arrivals shop NFL by Abercrombie in.
- [27:16]
Charlie Gibson
The app, online and in store.
- [27:27]
Herobred Advertiser
When did making plans get this complicated?
- [27:30]
Kate Gibson
It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no.
- [27:40]
Herobred Advertiser
One forgets mom's 60th and never miss a meme or milestone.
- [27:44]
Kate Gibson
All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com this episode is brought to.
- [27:55]
Charlie Gibson
You by State Farm.
- [27:56]
John Hugo
Checking off the boxes on your to.
- [27:58]
Kate Gibson
Do list is a great feeling.
- [28:00]
John Hugo
And when it comes to checking off.
- [28:01]
Kate Gibson
Coverage, a State Farm agent can help.
- [28:03]
Charlie Gibson
You choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person or on the phone or using the award.
- [28:09]
Kate Gibson
Winning app, it's nice knowing you have.
- [28:11]
Charlie Gibson
Help finding coverage that best fits your needs.
- [28:14]
John Hugo
Like a good neighbor.
- [28:15]
Kate Gibson
State Farm Is there.
- [28:24]
Charlie Gibson
Some rapid fire questions for Joanne Harris? Dark chocolate Milk chocolate, white chocolate. What's your favorite?
- [28:31]
Joanne Harris
Oh, any chocolate in an emergency is just great for me.
- [28:36]
Kate Gibson
Do you eat chocolate while you write? I mean, do you have snacks? I guess is what. I'll make that a little bit more. Do you snack while you're writing? And is it sweet, salty chocolate? What is it?
- [28:44]
Joanne Harris
I have a lot of tea. I don't generally do a lot of snacks. I find that I don't need to have chocolate there to be able to visualize chocolate. What I do have is scent. I work with scents much more than I do with the physical consumption of things.
- [28:59]
Charlie Gibson
It's an American question. But do you ever eat M and Ms?
- [29:02]
Joanne Harris
We used to call them Smarties when I was a kid, and I used to eat them. I don't think I've eaten any for many years. They've got little faces like me.
- [29:11]
Charlie Gibson
Do you save nowadays?
- [29:12]
Joanne Harris
And all sorts. It rips me off.
- [29:15]
Charlie Gibson
I just was wondering if you're like me, if you save one color for the end. I take care of the blue ones and the brown ones and the ones.
- [29:21]
Joanne Harris
Absolutely. I always ate the brown ones first because the brown ones were boring. And for some reason, I thought the colored ones were better.
- [29:29]
Kate Gibson
Who is the writer that had the greatest influence on you?
- [29:32]
Joanne Harris
I think it was Ray Bradbury. I think he was the first writer I became aware of as a child, as a writer, as a human being, because before that, books were just books. And I didn't really look at whose name was on the spine, but with him, I felt that there was an actual authorial voice in there, and I just wanted to read everything he'd written after that.
- [29:54]
Kate Gibson
Hmm.
- [29:54]
Charlie Gibson
What's the top line on your bucket list?
- [29:57]
Joanne Harris
Ooh, I'm not sure I have a bucket list. I'm not sure I have a bucket. But I think what I would like to do is to. Certainly, one of the things I keep wanting to do is to. To. To go to the North Pole. That's that I've traveled, so I've been very lucky. I've traveled to all kinds of wonderful places, but I haven't. I haven't been quite as far as that. And so, yes, I would like to go there.
- [30:22]
Kate Gibson
I have a cliche question, but it's often a great place to end. Rapid fire. Best piece of advice you've ever received about writing?
- [30:30]
Joanne Harris
The best piece of advice, honestly, it's the piece of advice that I give to everybody. You need to love what you do. It's something that if you don't love it, nobody else is likely to love what you've written. And if what you're trying to do is to get published, then it's a road littered with rejections and disappointments. But if you love it, it will sustain you. Also. Read books. Read lots of books. I meet so many up and coming writers who say, I don't have time to read. And I think, well, it's, you know, writing without reading is like cooking and not eating. It's. These things are linked.
- [31:07]
Kate Gibson
It's funny, my friend Jay Ryan says the same thing. He says, I teach writing and I'm always blown away by the number of students who say I don't read. And he always goes, well, how are you going to talk if you don't know what's been said before you walked into the room?
- [31:18]
Joanne Harris
Yes, absolutely.
- [31:20]
Charlie Gibson
What are you reading right now?
- [31:21]
Joanne Harris
Right now I'm reading a book by Sunny Singh called Refuge, which is a collection of short stories about refugees of one sort or another. It's very interesting, it's very heartfelt, and they're all love stories of one kind or another, of the kind that you meet on the air.
- [31:37]
Charlie Gibson
What language do you read in most?
- [31:39]
Joanne Harris
Oh, I've just come back from France where I took my mother, who hasn't been home for a long, long time, and I just read in French there the whole time. Normally I will read maybe about 50, 50 French and English from time to time, if I'm feeling really adventurous, I'll read in another language too. But German is always a bit of a slog for me, and so unless it's something that I desperately want to read in German, I will read it in French or English instead. I studied German when I was at Cambridge and we did a lot of literature. And there is a scene in Die Leiden der jungen Werters, which is supposed to be the great romantic novel of the 19th century. Young men killed themselves over this novel. It's the story of Werther, who falls in love with a married woman and then kills himself for love of her. And there's a scene where he meets her at a ball and clandestinely meets her on the balcony. And there's a wonderful thunderstorm going on and there's lightning and it's terribly romantic. And he looks at her and she looks at him and he goes, klopstock. And it's not his fault, it's. We are not used to Germanic languages, we're used to Romance languages. But, you know, plot did not do it for me. And my laughter in the lecture theater as. As the scene was Read out with great feeling by my. By my tutor was not appreciated one bit.
- [33:12]
Charlie Gibson
Joanne Harris and this wonderful book, Van. We've done a couple of shows about grief, Kate, Books that involve that theme. And most memorably, I think Geraldine Brooks book Memorial Days about the death of her husband.
- [33:26]
Kate Gibson
But yeah, although I also loved Grief is for People.
- [33:29]
Charlie Gibson
Yes.
- [33:30]
Kate Gibson
That was a terrific book as well.
- [33:31]
Charlie Gibson
Wonderful book. Just two lines from this book. When Via is thinking about her mother. Grief is love with nowhere to go. I love that line. And the second line, grief is the weight of memories. I just love the writing of this book. I love the book. Anyway, we have a bookstore for you this week. You challenged me last week to come.
- [33:54]
Kate Gibson
Often.
- [33:57]
John Hugo
You.
- [33:58]
Charlie Gibson
Just by being. You do, but.
- [33:59]
Kate Gibson
Exactly. I was about to say my existence challenges you. That's. But when you looked into the crib at the hospital, you looked down, you said, challenge accepted. Yeah, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
- [34:10]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah, the game is on.
- [34:11]
Kate Gibson
Yeah, exactly.
- [34:12]
Charlie Gibson
Anyway, you asked me what I would name a bookstore if I owned one. And so I've got four alternatives for you. I'm going to give them to you after. After we talk to John Hugo, who owns the Andover Bookstore in Andover, Massachusetts. You should know that he got into this because his father owned the store and when his father passed away, he took it over. But this is the longest continuously operating independent bookstore in America. Dates way, way back. As John Hugo will tell you, Andover Books goes back to 1809. That's a heavy burden to carry a store that's. That's got that much tradition to it.
- [34:58]
Kate Gibson
And I think it's worth noting that John himself is not, you know, just for our listeners at home, he is not 215 years old. We didn't dig him up. We didn't. There's been no seance here.
- [35:08]
John Hugo
So, yeah, I mean, it's a. It's. It's got a lot of history. 1809. We often tell people to put it in, you know, in perspective. That was the year Abraham Lincoln and Charles Darwin were born. And There are only two Fortune 500 companies in the United States that are older than the Andover bookstore. You know, that's Molson Coors and the bank of New York. So it's like, you know, that's a lot. That's a lot of history being in different locations, but always in the town of Andover and always continuously operating, not closed. So.
- [35:36]
Charlie Gibson
And to put it in more perspective, Thomas Jefferson was president when Andover Books began.
- [35:44]
John Hugo
That's right.
- [35:46]
Kate Gibson
I think my father is really proud, too, because he voted for Thomas Jefferson. So, John, how did your father become the steward of this history? And how did your life begin in the bookstore?
- [35:57]
John Hugo
So my dad started his first store in 1965 in Marblehead in a small location. He was still in College at UMass Amherst. And he started it and he had no money and he wanted to be in books. He was a history major and got it started in his spring semester. And his mom would cover the store and that's how he got started. And then he had that store 1965. And then in the late 80s, I want to say 80, 88, 89 maybe. Don't quote me, I should have come with better notes. But he opened a second store in Newburyport, bought a store from somebody and had the book rack there and then, and then he did the Andover bookstore. It was in serious financial trouble. And then so I, you know, grew up going to those three stores. Along the way he opened half ownerships in Water Street Books. He had a quarter share in River Run Books, which was a great store up in Portsmouth. He opened the first airport bookstore. He had a bookstore in Alaska, and the list goes on. We had a book fair company. So many different things. But I grew up working in the bookstore, right. You know, my dad was a small business guy. So, you know, it was like, come on down to the bookstore and here's the deal, son. You gotta vacuum the entire store. Then you got to vacuum the building and I'll pay you $5 and get you a cheesesteak sub. So yeah, so I worked in the stores, grew up in the stores. And then for Andover, I went to the marble at public schools through elementary and then went to Phillips Academy as a boarding student for four years. So the store was right down the street. So I'd see my dad frequently when he came to the store. I bought textbooks there. And then after Middlebury College, I came back to work for him and ran that store for 15 years. So I was in that store frequently. And then, you know, took over from there and then he died suddenly in 2016. My dad was my best friend. We were like thick as thieves, you know, like. And I always adored books. I've always been a reader with him. I don't think you can not be, but it was a. You know, my parents, when, you know, the first gaming systems came out, it was like a non starter. No, we'll never have one of those, you know, and I never did. And I remember being miserable that all the kids in school had Nintendo and Atari and I was like, and now I thank him because it's like, you see people today and they, that's their, like, passion and hobby. And I'm like, glad I'm. I'm glad I'm not stuck to a screen. It was always easy for me. I was always a reader and he always involved me, took me to book dinners, took me to book shows. I mean, like, it was. And he just adored books. I mean, I mean, many people told him he was very successful in his real estate sidetrack. And, and people told him that he could have made a lot more money, in a sense. But he said, john, you know what? You got to remember, bookselling is a good life. It's not a good living. So, you know, he always said, you know, the power of bookselling is. It's a choice to be in that world. And every day you get a chance to meet new people that are, you know, very intellectual people that are. Book people, like, are interesting. They want to talk about the news, they want to talk about politics. They are, they're good people every day, you know. You know, if you manage a bookstore and you're at the front counter, you meet great, great people.
- [38:53]
Charlie Gibson
When anybody looks at your website, they will see a wonderful Tudor style front door to what looks like an inviting inside. And then you see the pictures inside and you find, indeed, it is inviting. So what kind of a feel are you looking for with Andover Books?
- [39:12]
John Hugo
I want you to walk into the store and feel like you're walking back into time, you know, and so that's, you know, that's our motto. And I give credit to Sarah, our manager the last three years. She, she created that. We redid our website with her, and she created that time is soft here, which is kind of our motto, you know, and so that's, that's the feel we want. Old, you know, homey, your local bookstore, you know, the people at the counter. And that's what we live on, you know, because we tell people, you know, you can buy books anywhere.
- [39:40]
Charlie Gibson
I believe that's on your front door, isn't it?
- [39:43]
John Hugo
It is.
- [39:43]
Charlie Gibson
Time is soft here. And I loved in the description of the store, step inside and land gently. Yes, there's a softness about the business of living that is reflected in those thoughts. And it seems to me that's exactly what you want in a bookstore. I love a bookstore with a good sense of humor reflected in its website. And I love the fact that your competition on your website is characterized as that faceless, ruthless, online corporate behemoth. Now, I can't imagine what you're referring To.
- [40:22]
John Hugo
Yeah, for sure. I mean, they. They have changed the. You know, the Big river has changed the. Has changed the game in. In many ways. And people often ask me, like, how are you surviving with them? And I said, well, it's not easy. You know, it is definitely not easy. But to give them some perspective, you know, I have a book on my shelf that I keep that I didn't even bother reading, but it's called. It came out in 2006, I believe, and it said print is dead. And it was a whole essay written about how the Kindle, which came out in 06, was going to kill all print books, you know, and all bookstores. And it just didn't happen. But for those that read, we are, you know, still around, you know, years later with Amazon. There are. We went from the dark days when bookstores were, you know, falling out of the earth and closing left and right and big chains and independence to. We've been on steady path of growth. People are opening, stores are surviving, and it comes back to, it's a good lifestyle. It's not necessarily good living, but it's a good lifestyle and people are doing it.
- [41:20]
Charlie Gibson
Andover Books, 74 Main street in Andover, Massachusetts, going back to 1809, may your.
- [41:27]
Kate Gibson
Store reign another 215 years, God willing.
- [41:30]
John Hugo
Here we go.
- [41:36]
Kate Gibson
So the Andover bookstore opened in 1809. I think you were there for the opening, were you not?
- [41:41]
Charlie Gibson
Well, as you mentioned, I was voting for Thomas Jefferson at the time.
- [41:46]
Kate Gibson
But I have to say, you guys, if you look up the Andover Bookstore, it is the most welcoming, lovely space. It's just. I love the pictures of this place. And if we. Next time I'm in Andover, Massachusetts, I am going to go and try to pull myself a seat up by the fire and read a bit. Uh, it's just a gorgeous bookstore.
- [42:05]
Charlie Gibson
So, as I mentioned, Kate challenged me last week to come up with a name for a bookstore, if I owned one. And Kate, the easy thing would be, you know, the default really could be. We could call it the Bookcase. Cause that's what we've called it, the podcast. But let me give you four my.
- [42:22]
Kate Gibson
Okay, I've got a pencil, so I'm gonna write these down.
- [42:24]
Charlie Gibson
All right. And. And next week, I want you to give me what your favorite is of these four. Okay. You can have a week to think about it.
- [42:31]
John Hugo
Yes.
- [42:31]
Kate Gibson
And if. And by the way, listeners, if you're writing in, you guys can vote, too. Write in us a review and give us a vote on what I'm sure will be four really interesting yet surprisingly mediocre names. Go ahead.
- [42:44]
Charlie Gibson
So anyway, the default is the bookcase, but I put that aside. Number one. Chapter.
- [42:51]
Kate Gibson
Yes, chapter. Okay.
- [42:54]
Charlie Gibson
And you could then call it Chapter Books if you wanted, but just chapter, singular.
- [42:58]
Kate Gibson
Okay. Okay.
- [42:59]
Charlie Gibson
Second, the printed word.
- [43:02]
Kate Gibson
Okay, got it.
- [43:05]
Charlie Gibson
Third.
- [43:05]
Kate Gibson
Yes.
- [43:06]
Charlie Gibson
Third.
- [43:06]
Kate Gibson
Yes.
- [43:07]
Charlie Gibson
Page turners.
- [43:09]
Kate Gibson
Oh, okay.
- [43:10]
Charlie Gibson
And fourth. Read me. Yes, read me.
- [43:14]
Kate Gibson
Those are your four. Okay.
- [43:16]
Charlie Gibson
Nothing strikingly original. Katie came up with this when we were talking to the. To the owner of Abalabix Books in Illinois.
- [43:26]
Kate Gibson
Oh, can I have one that I can add to this?
- [43:28]
Charlie Gibson
Sure.
- [43:29]
Kate Gibson
How about Take Cover?
- [43:31]
Charlie Gibson
Take Cover. Oh, not bad.
- [43:34]
Kate Gibson
Thank you. And I just came up with that, people. He's been thinking about this for a week, and that's what he came up with. And I was just sitting here thinking, and I went, take cover. I mean, that's genius, folks. That's. I mean, like, he may be the original, and I may be what you find when you can't find the original, but I think I'm a little bit genius. A little bit.
- [43:53]
Joanne Harris
A little bit.
- [43:53]
Charlie Gibson
Well, first of all, I think it's kind of a mediocre name. Secondly. Secondly, the fact if you're going to choose one of my four selections, you're inclined to choose your own, because that's you. But no, you have to pick one of my four. You asked the question of what I would call the bookstore. You have to choose one of mine. Anyway.
- [44:14]
Kate Gibson
How about Duck and Cover?
- [44:15]
Charlie Gibson
Sorry, Chapter, the Printed Word, Page Turners, or Read Me. We have a coda, a very unusual coda from Joanne Harris, and we'll keep you apprised of who makes this podcast possible. And then her coda.
- [44:31]
Kate Gibson
The Book Case with Pete and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg, Arielle Chester at Good Morning America, and Josh Kim from ABC Audio. Follow the bookcase wherever you get your podcasts, and be sure to listen, rate, and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have them linked in the episode description.
- [45:00]
Joanne Harris
One of my frequently asked questions. Because there is a leitmotif in all my fian books where there is a song that fian sings to Anouk and her mother sang to her, and it is the song of the wind. And people say to me, I was, is it a real song? Where's it from? How does it go? And so I'm going to give you this one it's basically a Canadian folk song called Vla Bonvant and it exists in about 500 variants all over France, all over Canada. It's ubiquitous. It's a very weird song. I'm just going to give you the chorus because you really don't want to hear me sing for longer than that. It goes L' Al Bonvant La jolifant L' al Bonvant Mamie Matteo.
- [45:50]
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